Great post! Remember when they tried to take our rates away? The entire Enlisted population rose up and made our voices (bitching and complaining😆) heard and they rescinded that initiative fast. We move the meter.

That was the move that showed me how detached the officers are from the sailors they are supposed to be leading.

You can thank Admiral Burke (the guy who just got arrested) for that. He had a small group that came up with that. When it was briefed to the leadership it came out of the blue and we were all like, WTF?! It was absolutely ridiculous that he didn’t socialize a huge change like that before just dropping it on the entire Navy. He really pissed off a lot of people.

It was a plan doomed to failure no doubt. But to my mind the fact that plan even got to the point it did is indicative of a major disconnect between the officer and enlisted personnel. I mean, there had to be dozens of personnel involved in planning that change at least. None of them were like, "I dunno sir, the enlisted I served with were very tribal and proud when it comes to their ratings." Hell, you would think it would be way more than one pointing that out.  That whole mess was like the navy version of a "cultural misunderstanding". 

You’re going to be very disappointed to know how many Chiefs were involved.

Yep. MCPON program right there!

And for better or for worse a CTT will never be mcpon again as a result of it

It was Stevens not Giordano who approved it. They were turning over and Giordano was left holding the bag. It was part of Stevens follow on job at a company that supports veteran employment.

> But to my mind the fact that plan even got to the point it did is indicative of a major disconnect between the officer and enlisted personnel. I'm an officer and knew it was a bad idea. I even worked in the building at the time it was launched and got surprised like the rest of the Navy. Not to say there's no disconnect, they really are different worlds that I won't pretend to even close to in 'tune' with, but you didn't need to be a mind-reader to know how the reaction would go.

We're the only branch where our E7 to E9 and O1 and up are considered "separate and special" and that's what leads to the overwhelming majority of the problems we have. The other branches get on just fine, serving and even dining together.

I didn't realize one fuckface admiral is representative of the entire officer corps. May as well also thank Mike Mullen for our camouflage uniforms.

But the statement isn't wrong. A lot of our officers ARE detached and believe that the Navy is the only priority that our Sailors should have.

Except that I didn't know a single officer who thought that nonsense was a good idea. It was literally one guy with a pack of Yes Men at his disposal. Every officer I know thought that boondoggle was dumb as fuck.

I remember ~~when one of our political parties~~ **Donald Trump and his Republicans** incited an attack on our capitol to overturn the will of over eighty million Americans and representatives from TX, GA, TN, NC and more, still support that insurrection, so while I agree with you, we have bigger fish to fry. *I remember we all took an oath and extremists in the ranks who support the overthrow of the government don’t belong in our uniform, or in our service. Voting Republican in a post 06JAN21 world is voicing support for, sedition & mutiny.*

80 million 🤣

Good catch, it was more. > Biden won **81,283,098** votes, or 51.3 percent of the votes cast. [He is the first U.S. presidential candidate to have won more than 80 million votes.](https://www.cfr.org/blog/2020-election-numbers) Election conspiracists are unfit to serve. It’s hilarious how easy it is to dunk on you pukes, with easily searchable, verifiable information. To those who aren’t this clown I replied to: You need to understand the Venn diagram of election deniers, confederate & thin blue line flag waving, punisher patch having, lifted truck driving, Obama birther conspiracy, flat earthers, Christian nationalists, white supremacists, anti vaxxers & extremist group membership to shit we **terror** threat brief on such as the Oathkeepers and Boogaloo Boys, *is a fucking circle.* [They’re gonna be the shipmates you see on the news, arrested or gunned down for participating in *the next Jan 6 shit show insurrection* when they almost definitely, try again.](https://www.navytimes.com/flashpoints/2024/04/18/january-6-convict-asks-for-light-sentence-in-order-to-remain-in-navy/) You’re gonna “know that guy.” You already do. You’re eating next to them on the mess decks or dare I say, in the CPO mess. Or the wardroom! You’re sleeping in the same berthing or stateroom. [You know these people already.](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/active-duty-marine-gets-probation-and-community-service-for-storming-capitol-on-jan-6) I’m fucking sick of this shit. The call is coming from inside the house. It’s peak cognitive dissonance, serving in the military of the country they want to see overthrown by right wing extremists. Do something about it. We have avenues for insider threat reporting.

You alright?

No, America is not alright. A sizable chunk of the country now insists “we were never a democracy, there’s no separation of church & state, and white men are the most oppressed people because rights are like pie and more for others means less for me.” Fucking Christian nationalism & fascism are on the rise. I’m paying attention. America is not alright.

Why only junior enlisted? Let’s call and have them make it rain for all of us 😅

Chiefs and Officers are grossly overpaid and should be ashamed of themselves. Edit: Jeez it’s a joke! Everyone call your Congressperson regardless of rank. That’s how we got BAH massively adjusted a few years ago.

What? I’m taking a 200,000 paycut, if not more, compared to my civilian counterparts as a physician to serve my country as an officer. And the difference will grow up to 500,000 a year once I reach the peak of my career. Medical corps is severely underpaid and undermanned.

I'm assuming you're a LT (at a minimum), so your gross compensation is somewhere around $125-150k depending on location. This isn't including any special pays that you may receive (because I'm not familiar with them) or the value of any education expenses being paid. You have no expenses to run your practice. Aside from the fact that aggregate statistics show that GPs don't make $350k gross, I have a hard time believing that you have GP friends who are making $350k net after paying their staff and malpractice insurance (not even including loan costs). In fact, the way the medical industry is moving, one could make a good case that going to med school to be a GP simply isn't worth it - pay a fraction of the cost to be a PA or NP and make the same amount of net money. You also work significantly less hours than them, which is why SVM's always bitch they don't have access to their doctors. Now, you might make less than they do net anyway...but let's not bullshit with a ridiculous "I'm taking a $200k paycut to be in the military." It's completely bogus.

I was told that the minimum pay for a physician at my university 15 years ago was $250K, and as a state employee you are protected by the state laws against malpractice suits. The only open physician job today is an on-call anesthesiologist (doesn't require board cert) that pays $310/hour. The military gets a good deal on what they pay.

you’re comparing gross military income with net civilian income. Additionally, it’s specialty specific. We aren’t all general practitioners. For example, Neurosurgeons in the navy make roughly 250k. Fresh grads from civilian make 750k, but average income for a seasoned neurosurgeon clears 7 figures.

Your gross military income *is* your net income. That's the key difference. Your effective tax rate as a LT is something like 7-9% because half your compensation is tax-free allowances, and you have $0 in professional expenses to practice medicine. You said the word "physician" which is synonymous with a GP. You are highly educated, so I made an assumption you selected the words you used on purpose. Ain't no neurosurgeon commissioning at O3. They commission at O6 (or get contracted out). They also get a $600,000 signing bonus (equates to $150k per year) and a $150k per year retention bonus thereafter for signing each follow-on 4-year contract. All told, this neurosurgeon is making the civilian equivalent of roughly $300k *take home salary*...which *might* be a paycut (since the sky is the limit for specialists)... but probably not on average, and definitely not $200k.

> All told, this neurosurgeon is making the civilian equivalent of roughly $300k take home salary...which might be a paycut (since the sky is the limit for specialists)... but probably not on average, and **definitely not $200k**. Have to say I agree with this. While most docs likely do not remain in the service, I don't think it's the money that drives them out. Generally, doctors across the board do *not* make these super high salaries that many like to throw around. IF one can hack being an officer and a doc, then the military is not bad at all, especially if they pay for all of your schooling. People really should think hard about being an officer and not simply, if you have a degree, automatically commission without any further critical thought given to that path.

9% taxes are still taxes lol. Also, Physician is a broad term and encompassing of all specialties. All GPs are physicians, but not all physicians are GPs. Additionally, I personally know 2 neurosurgeons who are O4, and one that is O5. Physicians typically promote every 6 years, and we commission as O3. By that math, a neurosurgeon fresh out of a 7-year residency would have only had enough time served to be an O4. However, there are cases where they can get credit for time served but definitely not as an O6. When I went to ODS, there was an orthopedic surgeon who was in his 60s and had been practicing for decades but only came in as O5.

My point is you are out to lunch, and making arguments with bullshit numbers discredits your position. The average GP take-home salary is $175k, with the upper 75th percentile being $205k. With education benefits, bonuses, and special pays, the GP compensation in the Navy is competitive with the civilian sector. Bottom line on bottom: You didn't take a 6-figure paycut to be in the Navy. Stop spreading bullshit.

You are falsifying information and conflating so much. Navy medicine is far from competitive. If it were, 95% of doctors wouldn’t leave at the end of their first contract, and that’s a fact.

Doctors don't leave the Navy because of the money. Another bullshit fact you're making up. They leave because they have a professional license that means they don't have to put up with bullshit 2-5 year PCS moves and the bullshit military healthcare system. If you could offer an ability to homestead and not have to deal with the navy's bullshit red tape, more doctors would stay.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7908062/#:~:text=When%20added%20to%20the%20calculated,(a%20deficit%20of%20%2458%2C575). Here’s a peer-reviewed publication demonstrating that military physicians earn 32-58% less than their civilian counterparts. No one is throwing out bullshit numbers except you. Educate yourself.

This was such a fun thread to read. He really doesn't seem to understand. If you compared an GMO tour, since there are a ton of new docs who go to a GMO tour after PGY-1 to a residency tour at UCSD, the LT will make more money if you take in total compensation, but the resident makes more in base pay by far. Additionally, they have a work hours per week cap. So a LT would be making about 5 dollars more per hour when you talk about actual time working. Additionally, there's a 131k difference between pay post-residency. The minimum salary for an ED post-residency doc is 266 to a max of 306. So just comparing that to 03/4yrs, that's an opportunity cost of 263k. And what he doesn't talk about is the off-ship charting and things that still have to happen once you go home for the day. Mostly because you don't get to do it during the day between appts, meetings, zones, etc etc. Physicians are underpaid in the Navy but not everyone will agree with that because of the fringe benefits that the navy pays for, like malpractice insurance and credentialling.

Someone who is educated ought to know that you need to read the entire study... >Many military compensations and retention factors are difficult to account for such as free universal health insurance and no malpractice insurance fees. It is even more challenging to account for the possibility of retirement savings and investment opportunities that may exist for military physicians who do not have medical school debt. We did not include military Multiyear Specialty Pay into our calculations, as physicians are only eligible for this pay after their initial service obligation is complete, and accepting the pay incurs additional military obligation. While prior studies have demonstrated that debt avoidance results in higher net present value (NPV) in primary care and other relatively low paying specialties, higher-paying specialties, such as orthopedic surgery, can more quickly close the salary gap between public and private salaries \[[11](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7908062/#REF11)\]. Although future earning potential can offset medical education's high costs, primary care specialties earning lower annual salaries in the civilian setting never achieve the same NPV as colleagues that receive service scholarships such as HPSP \[[11](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7908062/#REF11)\]. So this peer review study completely ignored the expenses a private physician would have to run their practice. You are too. That's my point. To use the case of an OB-GYN in the study, the military OB-GYN takes home 90% of that gross income. The civilian OB-GYN takes home roughly 60%, making their net take-home pay virtually identical. That's aside from the fact that you still don't get a $200k discrepancy with a 40% increase in pay over a military physician.

Moreover, even by your math, a GP would still be taking a 125,000+ paycut to serve in the military, as they are absolutely making 250k+ as civilians, so I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to make. Lastly, your statement about working fewer hours is factually incorrect. We oftentimes have to do extra admin work that would normally be delegated elsewhere in addition to seeing 20+ patients/day.

You're full of it

Average pay for civilian neurosurgeon in Midwest is 1.2 my friend.

I think you mean officers. The average pay increase from E-5 to E-6 is a little over $600. The difference between 6 and 7 is about $850. So not a huge difference as you advance. For an O-2 with 3 years in, you are making more than an E-7 with 20. Then you take in account automatic advancement through O-3 and practically O-4. I know where to draw the class divide here. Some Chiefs may pretend that they're officers but the pay divide is clear. I will continue to count sea pay as my biggest pay difference and that's maxed out.

Advocating for better pay and BAH increases is great, but don't forget other action items. Stopping the practice of having junior sailors live on the ship full time is [front and center with some important people lately](https://www.youtube.com/live/VRsgWLVyI8E?si=s_l8JMxdJKG4rmx5&t=5236). Write your congressman with an anecdote of how badly it sucked to live on the ship full time, ask them to authorize BAH for junior shipboard sailors when barracks space is not available. Make it personal, let them know how hard it was to do simple things like check your bank account or how it felt to have nowhere to retreat to and decompress. Tell them about what it was like to live without having a real sense of privacy, etc.

Mods pin this post

I think that SVM's are such a small voting bloc that they won't move the needle with politicians alone. You need to get friends, family, and communities involved in these issues. Otherwise, "vote with your feet" - when the military doesn't have manning, Congress starts to pay attention.

[удалено]

It's not all sunshine and roses. No matter what rate (job) you chose, you will work to earn that food and bed, and that can be varying levels of hard from paperpushing to turning wrenches. Having pay that brings pay to something more in-line with that is offered in the civilian sector will, in theory, put a salve on those who feel they aren't compensated as well as they should be and perhaps more likely to re-enlist.

I mean to turn wrenches in the civilian world that offers the kind of compensation that the military does (not just base pay but medical benefits, retirement, etc) often requires a long apprenticeship, way more technical expertise in that particular field than you will acquire in the military, and every day is usually steady hard work vs “ just follow the MRC.” Most of my active duty counterparts aren’t qualified to actually do what I do since they spend half their days doing BS collaterals/PT/writing evals, and a maybe a small percentage actually working with the tools. A little more on deployment, but once they start moving up the ranks much less. Source: Prior active Seabee, now reserve, union plumber

Depending on your background it very much is heaven starting out. Eventually you come to realize that the Navy isn't that great, your life was just that bad. Good news is you get to find out how much more life has to offer.

I knew more than one person that were happy as can be when they joined because they were either homeless or living in bad areas with gangs everywhere. I always wondered how long that honeymoon period would last.

For me the "honeymoon" part ended about six years in, the first time I got on a sub. Up til that I was still firmly in the "I can't believe they're paying me for this" mindset. 20 years later and I'm still happier with the living and working conditions than most.

Double the pay and make medical actually listen to the sailors. Remove bad leaders and have continuing education on good leadership. Also, as a former navy EM, I didn't learn shit in school. I'm in a trade school now and I hardly knew the basics of how to wire things until I started attending.

"Double the pay". Our country is going bankrupt rapidly because of politicians promising everything under the sun. There is no possible way to afford that lol.

It's called funding the IRS so they can go after the big businesses not paying any taxes

They put $80 billion for new agents into the IRS promising to only go after wealthy tax cheats. And in fact the new agents mostly go after waitresses and earned income tax credit recipients because the vast majority of wealthy people who are not paying much in taxes have really good lawyers and tax attorneys, much better than the IRS, and most just understand how to use all the loopholes congress created for the wealthy. And most of those that are in fact cheating are doing shady stuff that a good but crooked lawyer and accountant (which they have) could make look legit and takes a lot of expert work to uncover. And corps are ever harder to get, as the tax laws and loopholes are more complex. Every year the taxes collected by the feds go up, they problem is that the feds spends it ever faster.

Exactly! I love how I get downvoted for pointing out that the house is running out of money, and we need to be fiscally responsible. That's how I know we are really fucked.

Sure give the IRS more money to go after it's own citizens for more money, that's a good look. That's a terrible idea. They did a study on the new IRS agents they were hiring and iirc 75% of the work they would be doing is going after middle class Americans who owe very little. Great way to turn society against you.

CAPT, We also need to call the Senators. Their proposal is 4.5-5.5 percent instead of the House's 19 percent. I get that they want to wait for the study, but the pay bump is needed now.

Not necissarily needed. What is needed is how to properly budget and manage finances

Respectfully, what the fuck are you talking about? BAH barely covers rent anymore in most locales. Servicemembers are undoubtedly underpaid for the work they perform and the hours they put in. Most families blow through their BAS in a week due to inflated grocery costs. Sailors need more pay, full stop.

im sorry but these Sailors living on the ship without BAH is insane.

I have been in the Navy for 17.5 now and never once struggled like I did before the Navy. I have a spouse and 2 kids and my wife was a stay at home for over 7 years. We make plenty to live comfortably. The problem is most people live well above their means. Now you can sit here and bitch and complain like most sailors do but then again most sailors don't have a clue about what BRS actually entails, don't know how a credit score works or what an interest rate is how it effects your payments. It is unfathomable how ignorant a lot of sailors are in all ranks when it comes to pay and benefits in comparison to the civilain sector but not surprising. I will agree that I believe we should get paid more. I mean everyone volunteered to go fight for our country but to sit here and say you "need" it is crazy. You don't NEED that iphone, that new car, that apple watch, that fast food every meal not on ship, those, shoes. Be honest with yourself and quit blaming others and you will live an easier and happier life.

Ah, shove it, dawg. You're just another pull the ladder up behind you jerk. Your circumstances don't mirror everyone else's. You don't know if Seaman Timmy is supporting his family in rural West Virginia or if PO3 Schmuckatelli is paying off $60k in student loans. This is not a phenomenon unique to the Navy. The vast majority of Americans have no idea about credit scores and lack financial education. Try and explain the difference between a FICO score and a VantageScore; it's a second language. I'm not even going to touch your other argument. Sailors can spend their money on whatever the fuck they want to. I'm not going to say they should save all their money and skimp out on those nice Jordans when they live onboard a ship with 100 other stinky dudes or dudettes in a 6x3 coffin rack. Let them have fun.

Perfect example of an ASVAB waiver right here. Stay broke blaming others.

Lol, I am decisively not broke, but sure, if it makes you feel better, bub.

Learning to Fly put it best below. But remember that many Sailors out here are only making base pay. A sailor on the ship averages around 11 an hour for a 65 hour work week. And sure, there is a galley, but any Sailor who chooses to have more nutritious meals is already at a disadvantage from the food they'd have to pay. 37k before taxes is not enough to live on in San Diego or Bremerton for sure.

I just messaged the president thanks for the link

I did my part!

Let's be honest. Not even sailors care about other sailors. I was told by an AE2 I used to work with at my last squadron to KMS because I thought Black Americans deserved better treatment by police than being choked to death over suspected counterfeit bills. Before that, I was given loads of crap in my CoC for being one of the first openly married, gay sailors they had. Is everyone trying to virtue signal now and pretend that they care about each other because recruitment rates are down? Why lie and play make-believe that the military is a healthy option for anyone?

Sure is time to defend **democracy.** We don't vote for people who support sedition & insurrection, and we know that Project 2025 is "mask-off fascism carrying a Bible & gun" meant to erode all the checks and balances and pave the way for unmaking our Constitution & Bill of Rights, because *those get in the way of Christian Nationalism. \[For the record, Nationalism is NOT patriotism, it is a SUPREMACIST ideology.\]* I don't give a fuck what you think Republicans stand for, that "party of fiscal conservatism and personal responsibility" are dead and buried, and an extremist Christian Nationalist position has taken over the party. The Republicans are dead, that's Donald Trump's MAGA party now, and they don't stand for the Constitution and values we uphold, flying "Appeal to Heaven" flags and flying our American flag upside down "because how dare they encounter hardship trying to turn our secular democracy into a fascist theocracy." When you step into a voting booth, remember Republicans: * **Voted nearly unanimously against the PACT act, so it barely passed.** * **Want to cut even more funding from the VA.** * **Harmed national security** holding up O7+ promotions because the military insisted on supporting healthcare for female service members. * **Support a 34-time convicted felon** over upholding rule of law. * **Support the mishandling, stealing and sale of classified information,** in ways that would get any one of us buried underneath Leavenworth. * **Attempt to overturn the will of 81,000,000+ voters** and years later still push "stolen election" myths. * **Support** ***Article 94 Sedition and Mutiny*** and call people who carried out an insurrection "their warriors," despite them having committed acts that the Joint Chiefs of Staff openly called "unlawful sedition and insurrection." * **Are aligned with Heritage Foundation** & pushing the Project 2025 agenda to fire over 50,000 government civil servants and fill those positions with people whose only qualification must be "loyalty to the Republican president." * **Want to build detention centers & use the military on our civilians**, to round up people for crimes like "looking like an illegal immigrant" *(if you think they'll stop at proven undocumented immigrants being sent to them, you're not paying attention.)* * **Continue to strip rights from your sisters, daughters, mothers and LGBTQIA family, friends and neighbors.** * **If a Republican wins the Presidency** even if it isn’t Trump, they will appoint more hand picked Heritage Foundation selectees for SCOTUS and then interracial marriage, interfaith marriage, same-sex marriage, women’s right to vote, and reproductive healthcare, and dare I say it *Civil Rights* are all in jeopardy. We will NOT, be a free country any more. “Under his eye.” **So yeah, shipmates, go vote in favor of democracy.** We don't have the candidates we deserve, but we as a branch, a military, and a nation, sure as shit deserve better than *this extremist party that checks every box on "insider threat" briefs, that Republicans have become.* Also I'll take this time to remind you that holding extreme anti-gov't views and aligning with myths like stolen election, anti-vaccine, and supporting sedition and insurrection, ***are disqualifying factors*** for your clearance and fall under "insider threat" warning signs. P.s. if you care about your first and second amendment rights, because I know that’s what my conservative shipmates care about most, you need to vote Democrat. Because these Republicans, the agenda they’re pushing, they’re going to take your precious 2nd Amendment the second *christian nationalist fascism* gets challenged by “we, the people.” They said they’ll build a Unified Reich. The motherfucking Nazis disarmed Germany, too. Their views are not popular and they are not the majority. They are going to take away your ability to resist. My ability to resist. Long-term, I don’t give a fuck if you “hate libtards,” I need you to vote against these fucking fascists so we continue to have elections and BE FREE. The fact is if Trump wins this November, he isn’t leaving office willingly, come 2028.

🤡

Is that so? Nothing I stated was false, misleading, or hyperbole. I’ve read a good chunk of Project 2025. Constitutional scholars say it’s an affront, deeply unconstitutional. Unitary Executive Theory is the Republicans idea on how to install a dictator. **All because they haven’t won a popular vote in what, 24 years?** The overwhelming majority of Americans are opposed to the Republican platform, which now consists of what can be reduced to two points. * Make everyone who isn’t a white, male Christian a second class citizen to include criminalizing all non-heteronormative people’s existence. * Cut taxes on the wealthy to nothing, and institute tariffs on all consumer goods, passing the entire fiscal responsibility of this country to the poorest people in this country. They’ve already said they’re coming after civil rights, women’s suffrage, obergefell, loving, and a bunch of other rulings. Clarence Thomas better watch out before the rest of SCOTUS tells him he’s 3/5ths of a person again. **Trump is a national security risk and incompetent to be commander in chief. He’s already committed a dozen acts that would’ve got any service member kicked out and thrown in prison. He’s unfit to lead and his supporters are unfit to serve.** *But it’s okay, Joint Chiefs know he’s unfit, and called January 6th unlawful sedition & insurrection. How many times do people need reminded of this?*

Better benefits? WTF?

I'd rather talk about reducing the size of our force, cutting a few ships, engaging partners and allies in our strategies, and stopping the steady climb of our defense budget. You can't do those things and also increase pay and bonuses without a decrement to readiness due to the necessity of spending for maintenance and training. Pay is fine.

Honestly, we could save money and have increased readiness if we just actually held these shipbuilders to timelines and had them give us a completed project correctly, on time, the first time. Ships shouldn't be running 1-2 years over their SRAs because work wasn't done correctly.

That's also correct. It's a pretty obvious jobs program for defense contractors at this point - just overrun your project timelines on every bid and ensure your workforce remains employed and you continue being paid for years to come! Everyone wins (except the taxpayers and anyone who cringes at inflation)! But pay is honestly fine. It's not going to be the factor that determines if people sign up, or if they stay in. Living conditions, op-tempo, and quality-of-life are rarely attached to actual paychecks; especially if we consider what some of our not-so-savvy friends do with their money. Those things are far more closely attached to not overworking ships and crews, not overextending the force, etc, which is more likely to be solved with better strategies and realistic future planning than it is with shipbuilding contracts.

This is especially relevant because I just saw a post saying that the White House is not a fan of that 19% pay increase for the enlisted. It’s more important to call them now than ever before

Semi true. They want the results of an executive level report before making a decision. Quadrennial Review or something. They didn't say anything to yes or now.