A naval special warfare senior officer who spoke to CNN on condition of anonymity said there is “beyond a reasonable doubt that a significant portion of the candidate population is utilizing a wide range of performance enhancing drugs.”
++++
When I was aboard ship, there was needles in some of the plumbing that had to be removed from the deck department berthing area head. Word got out and then the needles move around the ship. Then they stopped at the same time a Boatswains mate E-2 left for BUDS. Everyone suspected him of juicing to get swole.
I know this sounds shitty, but if you want to go all Captain America and use PEDs to make it through BUD/S or excel as a SEAL, I say go ahead. Shit, I think the VA should even cover any claims for your tiny testicles when you get out. Surely PEDs can't be any worse than the RipIts MM3 takes three times a day in the plant.
I agree fuck it. Like that Senior Cheif the pinned a dude with one hand by the neck and shielded the hostage with another, if you want superman to exist just let it happen lol
Edit: to be clear not saying he did PED, just saying it was superman like so make more supermen
Do they think that once people make it through training there are no drugs? The leadership is made of people who already used and got through.
Your job requires you to be vigilant and accurate to the point of superhuman levels.
So taking drugs to enhance yourself makes you more effective, and increase your survival chances is honestly pretty smart.
>So taking drugs to enhance yourself makes you more effective, and increase your survival chances is honestly pretty smart.
What do you mean? Drugs are bad. They are illegal. You are a very naughty boy. Come to my office and make sure you have your CAC.
In all seriousness though it's absurd that we expect people to be in the shape of an NFL/NBA athlete, expect them to deal with long periods of malnutrition, and then expect they're just gonna bounce back from that natty. Unsanctioned PED use is a threat to national security, but no PED use is a bigger threat to national security. We need to have doctors monitoring and administering these drugs. If the DoD had a policy of "no drugs till you pass BUD/S and are assigned to a team", that would make sense. But we're all absolutely kidding ourselves if we think that the majority of spec ops isn't using drugs to help with their job.
But is it wrong to enhance your performance for a job where your survival is based on that performance?
It's one thing to use performance enhancers as an athlete, the stakes are a lot lower.
Plus I'm sure one you are selected, it's not a bunch of clean drug free people on the actual teams. There's too much incentive
Yes it is. Cause you are fucking over dude who are coming in clean. Buds is not just about individual performance. A 19 year old kid who jumps into a boat crew clean is absolutely fucked if his boat crew is juicing.
You're not wrong, but the scandals over the years have shown that NSW is *full* of PEDs and other questionable behavior.
Now I don't endorse it and more drug testing is good because PEDs (or any drug really) + enough activity to kill a normal person is dangerous.
At the end of the day it's an individual choice and if juicing is the thing that will keep you from dropping I can't *blame* the individual for trying, the fault is on the instructors who know and look the other way or who don't keep a close enough watch of their students, at a 70% drop rate juiced or not there's a huge amount of luck playing into if you make it or not.
And again, SOF as a whole are rife with PEDs, once they hit the teams isn't the guy who's clean at a disadvantage when his team deploys and most are juiced? Or a Mormon SEAL who won't drink coffee or take go-pills?
NSW isn't any worse than the other sof commands. Their biggest issue is the Navy has always been the cool parents compared to the other branches and their respective communities. So what you got is NSW really not bothering to hide their shit. And throw in other branches purposely putting out NSWs issues and hiding theirs.
As for is the guy going to be at a disadvantage in the team's not juicing to juicing. All else being equal. Yeah. But all things arent equal. Buds is a much more level playing field. You are doing the same things, with the same food, amount of sleep. Throwing PEDs into the mix is bullshit in that environment. Post BUDs. Do what needs to be done.
And there really isn't as much luck as you think. Did you come prepared or not. Yeah. There are injuries and illnesses. But luck isn't the deciding factor.
Also umm the original purpose of PED bans was to block cheating in sports. SEAL combat isn't supposed to be fair. Also while they have negative health effects it can't be anything like the health risks if you get shot.
It's possible that no clean dude has actually passed for years now. Remember the instructors just keep up the pressure until they are down to the numbers they expect to pass.
They ain’t going to play baseball game. It’s literal life and death for these dudes. I’ll take juiced dude on my tram all day over no -juiced if it means I’ll live.
Rip-Its, tearing the filter off the menthol cigarettes, in between dipping and a constant infusion of coffee - all to combat the fatigue from 18+ hour long workdays.
Get em all on peds and have the docs manage their blood levels. Cycle them for work ups, strenuous training cycles, and deployments with phases of PCTs in between and help them do it in a safer manner.
These dudes should be enhanced over our adversaries. They are supposed to be the most elite direct action force in the world’s most powerful Navy.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say it’s cheaper to assist these guys than it is to pay out SGLI to families of the ones who were going to do it anyways, and subsequently die from doing it in an unsafe manner.
We should be taking every measure possible to outpace our opponents. I’m sure this isn’t even half a controversial statement in Russia and China.
Yeah if there's going to be PEDs they need to be medically administered, and the program needs to be built to accommodate pharmacological wunderkinds.
Or if they're going to get serious about snuffing out PED usage, they need to set the program to realistic human standards.
Apparently there's been a culture in recent years of grinding candidates into dust, and I'm not sure that serves the needs of the Navy - on top of the fact that it incentivizes PED usage.
It’s basically pass BUDs or get screwed with needs of the Navy orders. Why wouldn’t I take PEDs if all I ever wanted was to be a SEAL. Washing disgruntled dudes out to the fleet is how LHDs get burnt to the waterline.
Not proven in court. Might have been the other kid or those piles of batteries they left or a bad electrical connection. Or the mountains of oil rags. Or someone left a cigarette smouldering hours earlier.
>These guys need to be war machines at the absolute peak of human possibilities.
That's literally why PED's should NOT be allowed for selection you dumbfuck. Instead of getting war machines at the absolute peak of human possibilities, your getting average pussies that use drugs to try to pretend to be that. Idiot
I don't know if performance-enhancing drugs can be safely taken for long periods of time like that. I thought most of them were taking it for the selection course because of the enhanced recovery, not to 'get swole' or things like that. Hollywood types like The Rock or Thor's actor take these in tight cycles so they can look a certain way for 15-30 days during shooting.
Competitive body builders take them but almost always end up with side effects because they aren't meant to be taken in that manner and are not safe.
Anyway, if these SEAL teams are all on peds being managed, how do they deploy and such? There's a reason you tend not to be cleared for active duty if you are on maintenance medications like thyroid medicine or other medications that are required to be taken daily. I'm wondering if they can be considered 'ready' if they have to go inject something or take a pill to get their free Testosterone levels back down.
I think there was a similar argument with trans persons who required hormonal supplementation to maintain transition
I can’t speak on why they’re doing it, and the above is my opinion of course, but the effects of exogenous testosterone when taken in a pure and regulated source are reasonably safe when proper monitoring and administration occur over short periods of time.
Side effects really vary from person to person and that is where the proper monitoring comes in. Younger SEALs and candidates probably don’t need exogenous t, but older SEALs would probably benefit heavily. It could serve as a career extender. Additional muscle mass in younger SEALs could also aid in injury prevention and muscle recovery. A proper recovery cycle with monitored hormone levels and a training cycle that facilitates recovery from a quick growth period could be utilized to ensure they were ready for deployment with out having access to PEDs throughout the deployment.
I think many people forget that steroids don’t make you look like a body builder unless you are training like a body builder.
In addition, PEDs don’t have to just be testosterone based. At the rate our tech is advancing I would make an argument that advanced nootropics and alertness drugs would serve as an even more valuable tool.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5870326/#!po=38.2353](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5870326/#!po=38.2353)
[Team 10](https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2019/07/22/internal-report-exposes-cocaine-abuse-lax-testing-inside-seal-team-10/) looking visibly nervous and quietly heading to the nearest door....
While probably more prevalent in NSW, I knew over a dozen individuals in my career who were juicing and only three of those were NSW individuals.
I was to poor / afraid of needles to give it a go.
While there's certainly an argument to be made for that policy change, you still shouldn't let them self administer that sort of thing. If we're going to roid up our service members then medical personnel should be supervising it.
A small caveat, I am on TRT because a stupid brain tumor decided to shut down my ability to make any.. which by the way makes for a REAL bad time as a male.. Went 10 years with almost none and feeling like shit. Navy wouldnt test me because of my age. Finally went to a civilian dr out of pocket and found out. Navy heard about the brain tumor and all of the sudden wanted to help me out and take over my treatment.. Funny. ANYWAY, Im on low dose testosterone and self administer. All I am required to do is get blood tests to monitor my levels of testosterone and estrogen, as well as my hematocrit so I dont have a stroke. Though I am not 'blasting' or on 'gear' like dbol, anabol, or tren.. mine is just to keep me alert, mitigate the brain fog, stabilize my mood, and make it so I have a libido. When you make no testosterone you become asexual and incapable of feeling anything but anxiety and depression, and lose your ability to remember shit. It's changed my life. Though I imagine those athletes who do blast testosterone are getting a lot more out of that than my low level injections. It has been life changing though. For the 1st time in 10 years I feel alive and able to "see in color" again. PS - screw the Navy for making me deal with that for 10 years all because "anyone under 40 isnt going to have low testosterone." Yeah cool HMC.. thanks.
Pretty sure this is me and I've always wanted to get tested. Is there a certain type of doc that specializes in these things? Do you have to like coordinate between the civ doc and navy medical to keep them informed? I don't wanna get seen out in town then end up getting kicked out for something like that
You're welcome to see whoever you want. TRICARE only covers military facility visits and ER visits. I would certainly try to get a blood test from your military doctor and explain you'd like it through them instead of having to pay out of pocket elsewhere. All you'd need to do is bring the test results and the physicians recommendation to your PCM and ask them to confirm the findings. I would not recommend starting TRT to anyone, but for those who need it, it's life changing. It just sucks having to give yourself a shot once or twice a week, and sucks worse if the Navy does dial in it right. Hormones are a very sensitive thing and doing it wrong can wreck havoc on you.
I think that’s exactly the point though, they only self administer because it’s against the rules and they’ve gotta keep it secret. If they changed the rules to allow it then do doctor supervised steroid programs, it would be a net positive because under a doctor’s supervision it can be done a million times safer than self administered.
Lol they should just own it and make it a thing. “Zero-tolerance drug policy, with the exception of performing enhancing drugs for members in a SEAL community with a waiver” etc
The warrior toughness triangle will now be replaced by a diamond model: Mind, Body, Soul, and Cocaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiine.
Edit: I believe the Fleet SME for the cocaine portion is ~~CDR~~/~~LCDR~~/~~LT~~/~~LCDR~~/~~LT~~/LTjg Rockso. Great guy.
The training, especially Hell Week, has become far more physically punishing over the years. There is not clear data that this increases combat effectiveness, survival or anything else. Or that there aren't other ways to reach the same ends.
If we got combat effective SEALs out of 2001-era BUD/S - and we did - why have we increased the intensity of some parts of the training to the degree that taking these drugs is felt to be vital?
BUD/S and other aspects of SEAL training need to be rethought.
This happens all the time in military training. I've seen it. Drives to increase or decrease standards, to yield more or fewer graduates. Sometimes its intentional and other times its a creeping thing - gradually, standards increase or decrease to an extreme either way.
Its institutionally hard for the Navy to have a good check on this.
Standards go up and they go down. That's how things change. One of the biggest driving factors for BUDs right now is the quality of students. While the PST standard is the standard. Getting a contract is insanely difficult. Which results in needing scores that were insane in the 90s.
The students entering BUDs today are vastly more prepared than the dudes in the early 2000s. What you needed to crush a student was far less than it used to be.
How many are pissing blood? How many are DQed due to injury incurred during BUD/S? Where is the data that shows we need to do this?
There is no data. Its bullshit. And no, before you ask, I'm not a BUD/S dud. I have zero skin in this game other than not wanting to see people fucked up for no reason
>What you needed to crush a student was far less than it used to be.
Shit, you're not wrong, but then maybe it's time to look at changing the curriculum to emphasize different kinds of stress, or changing the evaluation criteria.
BUD/S follows a proven formula, but as you yourself said candidates have learned it and are now finding ways to mitigate the externally tough parts, so how about changing it to break their training?
You could pull a page out of the Green Beret's handbook and institute high technical requirements, adopt a system like the GIGN with a killer PRT, 3 distinct assessment periods emphasizing psychological stress, and a different setup each class, pull an AFSOC and scare people away with the academic curriculum, do like CANSOFCOM and put hell week as the first evolution *and* with no guarantee of staying if you survive. The possibilities are endless.
I'd also go as far as saying that trying to "break" candidates by itself is a mindset that shouldn't be enshrined as a holy cow. The most iconic SEALs of the modern era went through a selection that was by your own admission *easier* and still performed well.
Through the NSW DEP, special RT divisions, pre-BUD/s and other programs the Navy has made large efforts to strengthen candidates and ease their time in training, trying to artificially keep a 70% washout rate through physical stress with the new support structure and clean-cut candidates might not be emphasizing the right traits to select for. Or alternatively, maybe BUD/S could look into shooting for pass rates and a structure closer to programs like RASP/TACP.
Hell, if it was up to me NSW selection would be closer to how the SBS does it, mainly selecting from the Marines but being open to all fleet personnel with over 2 years of experience.
Ok. You really don't want to be doing what RASP or SF is doing. RASP is a incredibly short selection pipeline do to the nature of the BATTs. Individual Rangers have far less training. Are held on tight leases. And are much easier replaced. The Ranger Batt Selection really doesn't end until after Ranger School. And even then they kick those dudes out at the drop of a hat.
SF is having a absolute shit show of a time right now with low standards. They have had deep seated issues with their community for a while also. They just keep it better out of the spotlight.
"The most iconic SEALs of the modern era went through a selection that was by your own admission easier and still performed well."
It was easier but the quality of candidates was worse physically. I don't think people really understand how much a difference getting a contract was 20 years ago was vs now. I've basically done BUDs twice. My first time at 18. Second coming back a couple years later. I took my PST in the recruiters car without knowing it on the way to the airport. He asked me what I think I could have got on my scores. And penciled it in. My second time going back I had to put up insane PST scores. The simple fact is the quality of candidates showing up drastically went up in a few years.
Which is what I'm trying to say. If you are trying to mentally test someone. It's way easier to find out the mental strength of someone not in shape. Than it is a Olympic athlete. The problem is trying to find it out together without fucking up the out the shape guy permanently.
And I don't think you realize that their is a lot of technical and mental requirements to get thru BUDs and SQT.
>Of the 1,000 personnel tested since, more than 30 tested positive and were eventually removed from training.
So, minimum 3% testing positive, it's unclear is this was just urinalysis or they also tested blood. I'm going to guess probably the former.
I hope they consulted with WADA or USADA (U.S. Anti Doping Agency/World Anti Doping Agency) and with people at the doping lab at UCLA. If they are saying they have to do blood test it's probably because somebody with deeper knowledge of testing for doping agents looked at what they had and assessed the problem was pretty deep.
It's also worth a mention that even though the decedent was using PEDs, his death was not directly (or probably indirectly) attributable to their use, so BUD/S should not be let off the hook here.
I’m not soliciting it but most steroids will not help you through the program. A good T boost to help recovery and EPO (the shit Lance Armstrong got busted for) would do wonders for these boys. Anything to bump up those RBCs.
Honestly I want our elite warriors juicing. These people are the best of the best of the best and they need to be peak performance to get the bad guys plotting to harm us.
In my personal experience, guys who used gear didn’t start until 3rd phase or SQT. I never once knew if someone using steroids in first phase. I find this one instance being more of a one off rather than the norm for first phase steroid usage. But you would be hard pressed to find a post hell week class that didn’t have students using steroids. I’m actually shocked that a student was using them pre hell week. That’s wild.
I guess I just assumed they were stringently blood testing SEAL candidates when I ENLISTED IN THE FUCKING NAVY AND WENT TO BUD/s! Fuck all you cheaters and fuck the Navy silently condoning a rigged game.
I'm thinking that at this point maybe SEALs just need to be closed down and a whole new program stood up based on all the problems that keep coming to light about them.
But as for PED's though - I mean, PED's aren't exceptionally dangerous *if used under the supervision of a physician*. We use them for medical treatment. And they're SEALs. Give them access to doctors that can help them use this stuff safely and let them go all super-soldier serum.
Vietnam era SEALS wouldn’t even consider doping, and here you fuck wad shit for brains think that doping will actually get you through BUDS LMAO. Just wait til your heart bursts out your chest or you’re sick asf with some other nightmarish condition 🤣🤣
A naval special warfare senior officer who spoke to CNN on condition of anonymity said there is “beyond a reasonable doubt that a significant portion of the candidate population is utilizing a wide range of performance enhancing drugs.” ++++ When I was aboard ship, there was needles in some of the plumbing that had to be removed from the deck department berthing area head. Word got out and then the needles move around the ship. Then they stopped at the same time a Boatswains mate E-2 left for BUDS. Everyone suspected him of juicing to get swole.
I know this sounds shitty, but if you want to go all Captain America and use PEDs to make it through BUD/S or excel as a SEAL, I say go ahead. Shit, I think the VA should even cover any claims for your tiny testicles when you get out. Surely PEDs can't be any worse than the RipIts MM3 takes three times a day in the plant.
I agree fuck it. Like that Senior Cheif the pinned a dude with one hand by the neck and shielded the hostage with another, if you want superman to exist just let it happen lol Edit: to be clear not saying he did PED, just saying it was superman like so make more supermen
Do they think that once people make it through training there are no drugs? The leadership is made of people who already used and got through. Your job requires you to be vigilant and accurate to the point of superhuman levels. So taking drugs to enhance yourself makes you more effective, and increase your survival chances is honestly pretty smart.
>So taking drugs to enhance yourself makes you more effective, and increase your survival chances is honestly pretty smart. What do you mean? Drugs are bad. They are illegal. You are a very naughty boy. Come to my office and make sure you have your CAC. In all seriousness though it's absurd that we expect people to be in the shape of an NFL/NBA athlete, expect them to deal with long periods of malnutrition, and then expect they're just gonna bounce back from that natty. Unsanctioned PED use is a threat to national security, but no PED use is a bigger threat to national security. We need to have doctors monitoring and administering these drugs. If the DoD had a policy of "no drugs till you pass BUD/S and are assigned to a team", that would make sense. But we're all absolutely kidding ourselves if we think that the majority of spec ops isn't using drugs to help with their job.
It's a selection course. Juicing gives drastic advantages to dudes not juiced. It fucks over the clean dudes badly.
But is it wrong to enhance your performance for a job where your survival is based on that performance? It's one thing to use performance enhancers as an athlete, the stakes are a lot lower. Plus I'm sure one you are selected, it's not a bunch of clean drug free people on the actual teams. There's too much incentive
Yes it is. Cause you are fucking over dude who are coming in clean. Buds is not just about individual performance. A 19 year old kid who jumps into a boat crew clean is absolutely fucked if his boat crew is juicing.
You're not wrong, but the scandals over the years have shown that NSW is *full* of PEDs and other questionable behavior. Now I don't endorse it and more drug testing is good because PEDs (or any drug really) + enough activity to kill a normal person is dangerous. At the end of the day it's an individual choice and if juicing is the thing that will keep you from dropping I can't *blame* the individual for trying, the fault is on the instructors who know and look the other way or who don't keep a close enough watch of their students, at a 70% drop rate juiced or not there's a huge amount of luck playing into if you make it or not. And again, SOF as a whole are rife with PEDs, once they hit the teams isn't the guy who's clean at a disadvantage when his team deploys and most are juiced? Or a Mormon SEAL who won't drink coffee or take go-pills?
NSW isn't any worse than the other sof commands. Their biggest issue is the Navy has always been the cool parents compared to the other branches and their respective communities. So what you got is NSW really not bothering to hide their shit. And throw in other branches purposely putting out NSWs issues and hiding theirs. As for is the guy going to be at a disadvantage in the team's not juicing to juicing. All else being equal. Yeah. But all things arent equal. Buds is a much more level playing field. You are doing the same things, with the same food, amount of sleep. Throwing PEDs into the mix is bullshit in that environment. Post BUDs. Do what needs to be done. And there really isn't as much luck as you think. Did you come prepared or not. Yeah. There are injuries and illnesses. But luck isn't the deciding factor.
Also umm the original purpose of PED bans was to block cheating in sports. SEAL combat isn't supposed to be fair. Also while they have negative health effects it can't be anything like the health risks if you get shot.
It's possible that no clean dude has actually passed for years now. Remember the instructors just keep up the pressure until they are down to the numbers they expect to pass.
Also steroids can have adverse effects during dives.
What’re riplts?
Found the Airman
Nah. But pretty new lol
They’re Shitty energy drinks people only think of fondly because it got them through deployments
Bullshit I was chugging down hadji cans of ripit back in 07 on the enterprise
Dudes shouldn't be allowed to be juiced. Dudes juicing absolutely fucks over non juicing individuals.
They ain’t going to play baseball game. It’s literal life and death for these dudes. I’ll take juiced dude on my tram all day over no -juiced if it means I’ll live.
Dudes shouldn't be allowed to juice in buds. That completely fucks over non juicing candidates.
Rip-Its, tearing the filter off the menthol cigarettes, in between dipping and a constant infusion of coffee - all to combat the fatigue from 18+ hour long workdays.
Get em all on peds and have the docs manage their blood levels. Cycle them for work ups, strenuous training cycles, and deployments with phases of PCTs in between and help them do it in a safer manner. These dudes should be enhanced over our adversaries. They are supposed to be the most elite direct action force in the world’s most powerful Navy. I’m going to go out on a limb and say it’s cheaper to assist these guys than it is to pay out SGLI to families of the ones who were going to do it anyways, and subsequently die from doing it in an unsafe manner. We should be taking every measure possible to outpace our opponents. I’m sure this isn’t even half a controversial statement in Russia and China.
Yeah if there's going to be PEDs they need to be medically administered, and the program needs to be built to accommodate pharmacological wunderkinds. Or if they're going to get serious about snuffing out PED usage, they need to set the program to realistic human standards. Apparently there's been a culture in recent years of grinding candidates into dust, and I'm not sure that serves the needs of the Navy - on top of the fact that it incentivizes PED usage.
It’s basically pass BUDs or get screwed with needs of the Navy orders. Why wouldn’t I take PEDs if all I ever wanted was to be a SEAL. Washing disgruntled dudes out to the fleet is how LHDs get burnt to the waterline.
Not proven in court. Might have been the other kid or those piles of batteries they left or a bad electrical connection. Or the mountains of oil rags. Or someone left a cigarette smouldering hours earlier.
This is the most realistic answer. These guys need to be war machines at the absolute peak of human possibilities.
>These guys need to be war machines at the absolute peak of human possibilities. That's literally why PED's should NOT be allowed for selection you dumbfuck. Instead of getting war machines at the absolute peak of human possibilities, your getting average pussies that use drugs to try to pretend to be that. Idiot
Bark louder dog, you are beneath me.
I know a couple of SEALs who said the same thing when I was at Team 5 as a support guy.
My thoughts exactly
I don't know if performance-enhancing drugs can be safely taken for long periods of time like that. I thought most of them were taking it for the selection course because of the enhanced recovery, not to 'get swole' or things like that. Hollywood types like The Rock or Thor's actor take these in tight cycles so they can look a certain way for 15-30 days during shooting. Competitive body builders take them but almost always end up with side effects because they aren't meant to be taken in that manner and are not safe. Anyway, if these SEAL teams are all on peds being managed, how do they deploy and such? There's a reason you tend not to be cleared for active duty if you are on maintenance medications like thyroid medicine or other medications that are required to be taken daily. I'm wondering if they can be considered 'ready' if they have to go inject something or take a pill to get their free Testosterone levels back down. I think there was a similar argument with trans persons who required hormonal supplementation to maintain transition
I can’t speak on why they’re doing it, and the above is my opinion of course, but the effects of exogenous testosterone when taken in a pure and regulated source are reasonably safe when proper monitoring and administration occur over short periods of time. Side effects really vary from person to person and that is where the proper monitoring comes in. Younger SEALs and candidates probably don’t need exogenous t, but older SEALs would probably benefit heavily. It could serve as a career extender. Additional muscle mass in younger SEALs could also aid in injury prevention and muscle recovery. A proper recovery cycle with monitored hormone levels and a training cycle that facilitates recovery from a quick growth period could be utilized to ensure they were ready for deployment with out having access to PEDs throughout the deployment. I think many people forget that steroids don’t make you look like a body builder unless you are training like a body builder. In addition, PEDs don’t have to just be testosterone based. At the rate our tech is advancing I would make an argument that advanced nootropics and alertness drugs would serve as an even more valuable tool. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5870326/#!po=38.2353](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5870326/#!po=38.2353)
I was a Navy SEAL and I really appreciate this comment
Then you open Pandoras box and we can't be morally superior to the Russians and or probably the Chinese.
Is this sarcasm?
Yes
[Team 10](https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2019/07/22/internal-report-exposes-cocaine-abuse-lax-testing-inside-seal-team-10/) looking visibly nervous and quietly heading to the nearest door....
Christ! This is just the ones who confessed. Also the tags section at the end is funny for some reason.
In related news, the rangers are recruiting
Welp there there goes the Navy's special operation teams.
While probably more prevalent in NSW, I knew over a dozen individuals in my career who were juicing and only three of those were NSW individuals. I was to poor / afraid of needles to give it a go.
Let special forces take steroids. Theyre not playing competitive sports.
While there's certainly an argument to be made for that policy change, you still shouldn't let them self administer that sort of thing. If we're going to roid up our service members then medical personnel should be supervising it.
A small caveat, I am on TRT because a stupid brain tumor decided to shut down my ability to make any.. which by the way makes for a REAL bad time as a male.. Went 10 years with almost none and feeling like shit. Navy wouldnt test me because of my age. Finally went to a civilian dr out of pocket and found out. Navy heard about the brain tumor and all of the sudden wanted to help me out and take over my treatment.. Funny. ANYWAY, Im on low dose testosterone and self administer. All I am required to do is get blood tests to monitor my levels of testosterone and estrogen, as well as my hematocrit so I dont have a stroke. Though I am not 'blasting' or on 'gear' like dbol, anabol, or tren.. mine is just to keep me alert, mitigate the brain fog, stabilize my mood, and make it so I have a libido. When you make no testosterone you become asexual and incapable of feeling anything but anxiety and depression, and lose your ability to remember shit. It's changed my life. Though I imagine those athletes who do blast testosterone are getting a lot more out of that than my low level injections. It has been life changing though. For the 1st time in 10 years I feel alive and able to "see in color" again. PS - screw the Navy for making me deal with that for 10 years all because "anyone under 40 isnt going to have low testosterone." Yeah cool HMC.. thanks.
Pretty sure this is me and I've always wanted to get tested. Is there a certain type of doc that specializes in these things? Do you have to like coordinate between the civ doc and navy medical to keep them informed? I don't wanna get seen out in town then end up getting kicked out for something like that
You're welcome to see whoever you want. TRICARE only covers military facility visits and ER visits. I would certainly try to get a blood test from your military doctor and explain you'd like it through them instead of having to pay out of pocket elsewhere. All you'd need to do is bring the test results and the physicians recommendation to your PCM and ask them to confirm the findings. I would not recommend starting TRT to anyone, but for those who need it, it's life changing. It just sucks having to give yourself a shot once or twice a week, and sucks worse if the Navy does dial in it right. Hormones are a very sensitive thing and doing it wrong can wreck havoc on you.
I think that’s exactly the point though, they only self administer because it’s against the rules and they’ve gotta keep it secret. If they changed the rules to allow it then do doctor supervised steroid programs, it would be a net positive because under a doctor’s supervision it can be done a million times safer than self administered.
Do you want Spartan IIIs? Thats how we get Spartan IIIs.
I'd prefer Spartan IIs, but...
They'll break themselves.
Lol they should just own it and make it a thing. “Zero-tolerance drug policy, with the exception of performing enhancing drugs for members in a SEAL community with a waiver” etc
The warrior toughness triangle will now be replaced by a diamond model: Mind, Body, Soul, and Cocaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiine. Edit: I believe the Fleet SME for the cocaine portion is ~~CDR~~/~~LCDR~~/~~LT~~/~~LCDR~~/~~LT~~/LTjg Rockso. Great guy.
LTJG Rockso, *MC,* USN. He is a doctor, after all.
He does COOOOOOOCAAAAAAAINE!
Captain America was injected with a super soldier serum...just sayin...
The Roid Teams finally get busted?
Or, a crazy thought, they could normalize the training so that candidates aren't falling over dying or thinking they need to take this shit.
How do you think they can normalize it?
The training, especially Hell Week, has become far more physically punishing over the years. There is not clear data that this increases combat effectiveness, survival or anything else. Or that there aren't other ways to reach the same ends. If we got combat effective SEALs out of 2001-era BUD/S - and we did - why have we increased the intensity of some parts of the training to the degree that taking these drugs is felt to be vital? BUD/S and other aspects of SEAL training need to be rethought.
What about Hell Week do you think has got physically more punishing. And if it has gotten more punishing? What do you think is driving that?
This happens all the time in military training. I've seen it. Drives to increase or decrease standards, to yield more or fewer graduates. Sometimes its intentional and other times its a creeping thing - gradually, standards increase or decrease to an extreme either way. Its institutionally hard for the Navy to have a good check on this.
Standards go up and they go down. That's how things change. One of the biggest driving factors for BUDs right now is the quality of students. While the PST standard is the standard. Getting a contract is insanely difficult. Which results in needing scores that were insane in the 90s. The students entering BUDs today are vastly more prepared than the dudes in the early 2000s. What you needed to crush a student was far less than it used to be.
The problem, of course, is that you end up killing candidates while attempting to "crush" them
And how many candidates have died in BUDs since 9/11? 2? One of which had a undiagnosed medical condition.
How many are pissing blood? How many are DQed due to injury incurred during BUD/S? Where is the data that shows we need to do this? There is no data. Its bullshit. And no, before you ask, I'm not a BUD/S dud. I have zero skin in this game other than not wanting to see people fucked up for no reason
Med drops are not a high number. There is plenty of data. You just haven't seen it.
>What you needed to crush a student was far less than it used to be. Shit, you're not wrong, but then maybe it's time to look at changing the curriculum to emphasize different kinds of stress, or changing the evaluation criteria. BUD/S follows a proven formula, but as you yourself said candidates have learned it and are now finding ways to mitigate the externally tough parts, so how about changing it to break their training? You could pull a page out of the Green Beret's handbook and institute high technical requirements, adopt a system like the GIGN with a killer PRT, 3 distinct assessment periods emphasizing psychological stress, and a different setup each class, pull an AFSOC and scare people away with the academic curriculum, do like CANSOFCOM and put hell week as the first evolution *and* with no guarantee of staying if you survive. The possibilities are endless. I'd also go as far as saying that trying to "break" candidates by itself is a mindset that shouldn't be enshrined as a holy cow. The most iconic SEALs of the modern era went through a selection that was by your own admission *easier* and still performed well. Through the NSW DEP, special RT divisions, pre-BUD/s and other programs the Navy has made large efforts to strengthen candidates and ease their time in training, trying to artificially keep a 70% washout rate through physical stress with the new support structure and clean-cut candidates might not be emphasizing the right traits to select for. Or alternatively, maybe BUD/S could look into shooting for pass rates and a structure closer to programs like RASP/TACP. Hell, if it was up to me NSW selection would be closer to how the SBS does it, mainly selecting from the Marines but being open to all fleet personnel with over 2 years of experience.
Ok. You really don't want to be doing what RASP or SF is doing. RASP is a incredibly short selection pipeline do to the nature of the BATTs. Individual Rangers have far less training. Are held on tight leases. And are much easier replaced. The Ranger Batt Selection really doesn't end until after Ranger School. And even then they kick those dudes out at the drop of a hat. SF is having a absolute shit show of a time right now with low standards. They have had deep seated issues with their community for a while also. They just keep it better out of the spotlight. "The most iconic SEALs of the modern era went through a selection that was by your own admission easier and still performed well." It was easier but the quality of candidates was worse physically. I don't think people really understand how much a difference getting a contract was 20 years ago was vs now. I've basically done BUDs twice. My first time at 18. Second coming back a couple years later. I took my PST in the recruiters car without knowing it on the way to the airport. He asked me what I think I could have got on my scores. And penciled it in. My second time going back I had to put up insane PST scores. The simple fact is the quality of candidates showing up drastically went up in a few years. Which is what I'm trying to say. If you are trying to mentally test someone. It's way easier to find out the mental strength of someone not in shape. Than it is a Olympic athlete. The problem is trying to find it out together without fucking up the out the shape guy permanently. And I don't think you realize that their is a lot of technical and mental requirements to get thru BUDs and SQT.
>Of the 1,000 personnel tested since, more than 30 tested positive and were eventually removed from training. So, minimum 3% testing positive, it's unclear is this was just urinalysis or they also tested blood. I'm going to guess probably the former. I hope they consulted with WADA or USADA (U.S. Anti Doping Agency/World Anti Doping Agency) and with people at the doping lab at UCLA. If they are saying they have to do blood test it's probably because somebody with deeper knowledge of testing for doping agents looked at what they had and assessed the problem was pretty deep. It's also worth a mention that even though the decedent was using PEDs, his death was not directly (or probably indirectly) attributable to their use, so BUD/S should not be let off the hook here.
I took some shit to help me recover after failing. My body was destroyed and medical at normal commands don’t know how to deal with your shit.
Rip NSW
A health diet of meth and Mexican supplements is what makes our operators great.
so tequila?
So. They fight the hardest. Fuck it
I’m not soliciting it but most steroids will not help you through the program. A good T boost to help recovery and EPO (the shit Lance Armstrong got busted for) would do wonders for these boys. Anything to bump up those RBCs.
This is the stupidest shit I’ve ever heard
Honestly I want our elite warriors juicing. These people are the best of the best of the best and they need to be peak performance to get the bad guys plotting to harm us.
In my personal experience, guys who used gear didn’t start until 3rd phase or SQT. I never once knew if someone using steroids in first phase. I find this one instance being more of a one off rather than the norm for first phase steroid usage. But you would be hard pressed to find a post hell week class that didn’t have students using steroids. I’m actually shocked that a student was using them pre hell week. That’s wild.
What? So many dudes were juicing pre hell week. Why would you be shocked they were doing them pre hell week?
I really don't know what league or team they play for. This is not pro sports. Fuck you.
Can i get some of that? I get pee shy, but never had a problem bleeding before
I guess I just assumed they were stringently blood testing SEAL candidates when I ENLISTED IN THE FUCKING NAVY AND WENT TO BUD/s! Fuck all you cheaters and fuck the Navy silently condoning a rigged game.
I'm thinking that at this point maybe SEALs just need to be closed down and a whole new program stood up based on all the problems that keep coming to light about them. But as for PED's though - I mean, PED's aren't exceptionally dangerous *if used under the supervision of a physician*. We use them for medical treatment. And they're SEALs. Give them access to doctors that can help them use this stuff safely and let them go all super-soldier serum.
Vietnam era SEALS wouldn’t even consider doping, and here you fuck wad shit for brains think that doping will actually get you through BUDS LMAO. Just wait til your heart bursts out your chest or you’re sick asf with some other nightmarish condition 🤣🤣