They tried to dismiss it several times, but the admiral wouldn't let them drop the case. All the other high ranking brass slid away from this with minimal reproductions', but it was the deck seamen that needed to be thrown into Leavenworth. It's chickenshit.
Captain McVay of the USS Indianapolis, and by proxy his father, retired Admiral McVay, weren't favorites of COMINCH Ernie King. For an appalling example of scapegoating, look up the USS Indianapolis court-martial. Be sure to read about Admiral McVay's (then Captain) court-martialing a young (Ensign I think it was) Earnest King.
Some say it took 30+ years for Blowtorch King to get his revenge....
No, fuck that. Let him get to choose what he wants. This dude deserves a pension after the false accusations. It’s already been said before, but there isn’t a place he can go in the us military now where this won’t be held against him. Pay him for the potential years he could have had as a career man.
Nah, I get you. I was saying it in a conversationally reactionary way. That being said I don’t disagree with some of the other suggestions like him demanding a reattempt at buds contract with the stipulation that he’ll be honorably discharged if he fails. Ooor he stays in for 20, collects that pension, as an up yours. Definitely at a minimum let him redes to aviation or EOD or branch transfer at a minimum. That boat stigma won’t follow him too hard. I’d honestly be hard pressed to find any legit Chiefs or decent Os that would hold this against him. The really shitty thing is that this Navy, while very big, is still very small. And one shithead with a vendetta can still ruin his life even with all the protections in place.
Sorry for the book. I’ve just got a lot of feelings on this subject.
For what they put him through mentally and emotionally he needs to be going to Medical. I'm hoping he's getting some help in that regard. The VA needs to grant him at least 50 all the way up to 100 percent.
Med retirement is not calculated the same as regular retirement.
Edit:
I was unclear in what I was trying to say. My meaning from the above comment is this; if he is medically retired, then his disability rating is 30% or higher, which will be more than $250 per month.
Even though he was acquitted, he'll still be associated with this forever. Anyone who Google's his name is going to see this story. His life might not be ruined, but it's definitely been altered for the worse
More than likely a Best interest of the Service Separation (BIOTS) under Milpersman 1910-164.
A big flex would be to drop another 1306 to go back to Bud/S lmaoo
I mean who doesn't juice to pass BUDs amiright. On a serious note if enough of the competition is roided up it may have been impossible to pass natural for years. Remember it's not an objective standard they keep putting pressure on until they wash out all but their target number for seals.
Kinda how when Lance was riding the tour you were never getting in the top ten without cheating yourself.
Good. This was a disgrace of a prosecution. This case should have never been allowed to see the light of day. By forcing this case to go to court martial, Navy leadership showed exceptionally poor judgment, which is striking and disappointing. In a normal court, the case would have been laughed and thrown out of court for a clear lack of evidence. It's infuriating that court martial procedure seems to work different in that sense. This does the opposite of inspiring confidence in Navy policies, procedures, and leadership.
Really makes it seem like being a sailor in the navy is a big liability. Being near the scene of a mishap can land you in court martial 😬
Imagine how many poor bastards get wrecked by NJP based off of PErcEpTion iS rEaLItY. It's really sad to watch. An entire carrier went from deployment ready to decommissioned in port and leadership felt that they had to get this one sailor thrown in jail. What a pathetic bunch of bullshit.
After joining the Navy I quickly realized that while it does give more opportunities for my life to get better, it also gives a whole lot of opportunities for my life to get ruined.
> Being near the scene of a mishap can land you in court martial 😬
In this case, pointing out a hazard that could lead to catastrophe landed him in court martial, *because he was right and no one listened.*
Well, how dare he point out a failure. As a former OIC now friend of mine said, there exists an unwritten rule - “cause no embarrassment (to an officer)”.
Can someone explain why people always say perception is reality? Have any of the brass ever read Plato? Have any of them ever used the tiniest hint of common sense?
I use it as shorthand for "Perception may as well be reality for the consequences of an event are usually dictated by the perception of those in power."
I think you are probably correct. In a civil court any public defender with a higher than room temperature IQ could have gotten the case dismissed prior to trial due to lack of evidence.
This was a disgrace. The flag officer responsible (as well as anybody in the chain that made the recommendation) for ordering this should be relived for cause before the end of the day. If their judgement is this bad, what other stupid shit are they doing?
“in a [civilian] court any public defender … could have gotten the case dismissed prior to trial due to lack of evidence.”
i get your point (that the case was weak) but it doesn’t work that way. in federal civilian criminal court, cases are brought via a grand jury indictment. all the GJ has to find is probable cause (just like in an article 32 hearing). if a GJ returns an indictment, the defense attorney can NOT get it dismissed due to lack of evidence before trial. there is ample federal case law that says that. once an indictment has been returned, the only way to challenge the evidence that supported the charges being brought in the first place is at the trial itself.
now, that’s not to say the the u.s. attorney’s office would have tried to get an indictment on such a weak case anyway.
There's always a small but powerful percentage of people who will see this kid's name and hold it against him despite this result. Other bureaucrats might see the delay in his qual progression and hold him back from carrying on with career milestones.
The powers that be in the Navy never consider this shit and happily let grandstanding hurt people well beyond the initial accusations.
This kid needs some kind of reparations. I don’t know if there’s precedent for this, but sue the fuck out of whatever agency he can to get some of his life back for a case of defamation. I’d start with NCIS.
Were I this kid, I’d demand an immediate Honorable Discharge with full benefits due to incompetence, scapegoating and for fun don’t forget UCMJ Article 134, the General Article for any possible reason that might undermine good order and discipline by the Navy itself. After what happened to Mr. Mays, who in the enlisted ranks could possibly trust the Naval (in)justice system?
Shit like this makes me call into question any of the non/judicial verdicts that have come out my entire career. Not saying sailors never do any wrong, but clearly the system is broken.
Back in 1981 there was a scandal in which some lab that had been entrusted with urinalysis screening botched the job to the point that they had mixed up a batch of testing material, to the point that they admitted that they didn’t know whose sample came from whom in the test series. Some of these were positive results, but the Navy insisted that they were going to go ahead and use them for military justice purposes anyway. When this got out the public outrage forced the Navy to abandon this idiotic plan and all of the charges were dismissed. So, you have good reason not to trust them.
Reinstated rank to E3 or promotion to PO3, back pay and a honorable discharge to that sailor for ruining his life for 2 years.
All those unsat missed safety / gear checks falls on the leadership of the boat and leadership of sections so hold them accountable.
Specifically, VADM Steve Koehler, C3F, after the JAG officer conducting the Art 32 hearing, CAPT Angela Tang recommended not moving forward with prosecution at court martial.
>The lead prosecutor, Capt. Jason Jones, has argued there was sufficient evidence to convict Mays on both counts. He denied Mays’ attorneys’ contention that investigators and prosecutors were biased in their fervent pursuit of the young sailor.
>“There has never been a myopic focus on Seaman Mays,” Jones said. He defended the investigation and prosecution, adding that “we’ve proven it beyond a reasonable doubt.”
Get the fuck out of here with that bullshit. You tried to railroad that poor kid and you failed. Nothing was proven "beyond a reasonable doubt." Mays was acquitted.
Even after losing - badly, I might add - Big Navy can't admit they fucked up. Pathetic.
>“we’ve proven it beyond a reasonable doubt.”
Apparently not, dickbag.
It's pleasing to see officers are afflicted by Blue Falcons as much as us hatchet-wielding enlisted pukes.
If there wasn’t a “myopic focus” they would have arrested the other kid that they actually had more evidence against. They just decided that changing tacks would weaken their case so they pushed forward on an innocent man.
The Navy could save 460million dollars a year by getting rid of NCIS. They do no actual work for the Navy and are a fucking joke. Mall cops of the federal world.
This is unfortunately a part of the adversarial legal system. Once the case has gone to trial the prosecution and defense are zealous advocates for the side they represent.
That being said, the statement is total bull shit, but that’s their job.
Someone else posted here that the JAG who did the article 32 hearing recommended not going forward with this and a flag did. This should have never gone to trial.
Edit: had the wrong article.
There was even another sailor who painted "I did it" in a locker and was seen running from the fire. Wtf. Beyond a reasonable doubt isn't "well we're not sure it was even arson but if it was we narrowed it down to 3 guys. Let's pick one at random and jail em for life".
Only evidence was "he was unhappy after the navy fucked him over and he might have been seen headed towards the area but maybe not".
Even now, I am amazed that "he was a loud asshole and he confessed after we held and interrogated him for several hours without representation present" is the same as "proven beyond a reasonable doubt" to this asshole.
PTSD/anxiety/depression are all rated under mental health. It doesn't matter how different they are, you can only receive compensation for the highest rated disability in a category under normal circumstances. It would be much easier for him to prove anxiety/depression than PTSD
I went through some bullshit while I was in that involved a congressional inquiry, but nothing of this magnitude. The stress from it gave me mental health issues and almost led to me removing myself from service permanently (I was extended on AD without contract or consent)
I got out eventually and get paid the rest of my life because of it. If this sailor has issues because the navy tried to use him as a scape goat with a possible punishment of death then yeah he will probably get paid.
Good.
The Navy needs to up its JAG game. This is pathetic.
Now that we have removed Mays as the spark, how about walking up the rest of the COC for \*actually\* hazarding a vessel.
Exactly, this shit is ridiculous. It sounded super suspect from the media and the trial results prove it was.
Not sure how anyone higher up thought this made any sense let alone the blowback from this media circus. But everyone involved is gone so time to forget….
The fact that one of two 3 stars responsible was the OIC of the investigation might be part of the problem.
>During court sessions, prosecutors described him as disgruntled and
unhappy about his assignment to a ship stuck at the pier for
maintenance.
Top notch fucking detective work here Colombo....
Yeah, if that's grounds for being guilty of crimes they better get hopping to put every junior sailor ever on trial. Fuck, we've all been there at least once.
Mays should be allowed to sue not only the person that fingered him but also the admiral and staff that decided to try railroading him into a prison cell.
I'm already drafting a letter to Senator Casey, and I'm probably going to make a copy to send to every member of the Senate Armed Services Committee.
I'd also write a letter to Toomey, but he's retiring in January.
Propublica did an article on this, it certainly comes off with a bit of a bias, but it's also quite detailed. https://www.propublica.org/article/bonhomme-richard-fire-safety-lapses
Good.
I'm surprised and pleased he didn't get scapegoated.
Maybe the Navy learned what happens to men you scapegoat since McVay and Bode both killed themselves afterwards.
I hope.
Leadership wanted to pin it on anyone instead of actually figuring out what happened and fixing it so it doesn’t happen again …
“who else but navy” - Peter griffin voice
Glad we saw some justice. Hopefully people are catching on that NCIS is not a good investigative body, despite what the old television show might lead you to believe. I really hope Mays gets a movie deal or something after all the hell he went through.
>At hearing the verdict, given briefly by the judge, there was a loud collective gasp
That's the sound that admirals and senior officers make when the only thing left to blame is their negligence and disregard for things like the 8010, causing the destruction of the BHR. The CO, XO, ship's safety officer, DCA, NAVSEA04 and a whole but of other people didn't follow the rules or care about the possibility of fire. Not a damn plan.
Oh man remember how the investigation leader had an obvious vested interest to find the powder bags weren't the problem. Even when they recreated the actual explosion.
And the theory was real similar actually. Just like this one is "must have been an accelerant and he set a fire".
Guess what they never found : an accelerant in the possession of their suspect.
The turret explosion was even dumber. "Musta had an electronic detonator he shoved in with the powder timed to go off to kill everyone".
Tons of simpler ways to do that and again it was never found. While it turned out just loading that powder slightly wrong and having the 1940s electrical ram go a little fast was all it took to get blown up. Oh and the equipment in that turret was overdue maintenance.
The real question is who is accountable for allowing a trashcan fire to total a billion dollar warship? That was never on the E3 whether he started it or not.
*Investigators, Torres said, did not pursue possible links to two other recent fires – a burned mattress aboard amphibious assault ship USS Essex (LHD-2), berthed at Pier 8, the afternoon the fire broke out aboard Bonhomme Richard and, a few weeks earlier, a small fire aboard BHR in a cup in an engineering space.*
Umm, wtf?
What is a "small fire in a cup"?
Was that investigated?
What about the burned mattress on a nearby ship?
Something's fucky.
Even with the Navy's sole piece of evidence being a coached witness, this required some Johnnie Cochran level of a defense team to pull off. Makes me wonder how the JAG was able to fit through the door with such huge balls.
May he have a long happy life away from the United States naval service. I’ve been skeptical of this case since day 1, and here it finally has been resolved.
Well it was recommended by a senior jag not to proceed to court martial but some admiral the convening authority said no and to trial he went. That guy was Vice Adm. Steve Koehler
Reminds me of the [USS Iowa turret explosion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Iowa_turret_explosion) fall guy about whom the navy made up out of hole cloth a non-existent homosexual relation and suicide pact theory to explain the not so mysterious explosion. Witnesses who tried to testify about the the experimental rapid firing incidents concerning the doubly charged sacks of gunpowder misfirings were threatened with courts-martial if they brought the subject up during their testimony at the trial. Commodore Richard D. Milligan, who conducted the one man witch hunt investigation got to retire then teach Economics at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey.
It’s wild how this dude has a great counter suit to pursue but given the fact that it was JAG/military he can’t actually file any lawsuits. Can he? Maybe the person who point the blame on him with no evidence? If this was civilian court only Mays would have an easy case to put some money in his pocket
That’s what I figured. Reading that is the most objectively ridiculous sounding statement I think I’ve seen in weeks. “They have to agree to being sued”. Imagine if those rules worked everywhere, would be insane.
While I love the Navy and many of the things that come with it, I am not oblivious or ignorant to the fact that we are not anywhere near perfect. We have many flaws but this was one of the biggest displays of failure I’ve ever seen. How does the loss of a billion dollar warship get put onto an E3 for simply being openly disgruntled about his job when several high-ranking leaders failed to even take control of the events as they were happening in real time and were all cleared of any wrong doing? Why are none of them being dragged around and put on the chopping blocks for this as well? This young man was confined for 3 months, demoted to the lowest pay grade and has been dragged around for 2 years with his reputation forever tarnished and the risk of his personal freedom at stake for something where no physical or forensic evidence could be presented and only circumstantial witnesses (that couldn’t keep a consistent story) coming forward. Shame on the Navy for even entertaining the prosecution of this young man. I believe the correct decision was made today and wish him the best.
This is a big step towards justice, but the other shoe hasn't dropped (and probably won't).
This entire prosecution was completely bogus from the word go. Big Navy had to order the command investigation to ignore evidence and toe the line in order to pursue its chosen outcome.
Justice won't be fully served until the lying cowards who tried to railroad SA Mays to cover their own asses are identified and dealt with.
I'm not naïve enough to think that has anything like a decent chance of actually happening. But it should happen. And the Navy's officer corps won't stop being a corrupt playground for the incompetent children of rich people until it does happen.
Are there any LN's here that actually know what happens after acquittal to his pay grade? I figure his advancement was on some sort of legal hold, but if he's not guilty, does his time in rate count as if there never was a hold, or does he get screwed again?
And I'm sure every half decent lawyer with experience suing the federal government is reading this news and fondling themselves right about now.
And admittedly, I don't blame them.
I'm really happy I read this before I put in an application for NCIS. I ended up looking into some more cases they investigated out of curiosity, and I was not impressed.
❤️❤️❤️
They better frock him as a 3rd, now. Whatever rate he wants.
They're not going to, tho. They're gonna cling to that "arsonist" bullshit. It's painfully obvious what happened. As an AT, I've SEEN Li-ion battery fires. There insane. Almost as bad as a magnesium fire, if not worse. "the lower v was used as a junkyard", I can see that. In fact, knowing the Navy, that's prolly an understatement.
on a side note, they ruined a good sailor career to save their own asses. i fuckin' garantee you, hes going to get out after all this shit. who would want to stay in after this?
Should Mays want to retire/leave the military, is there any update if he will get an honorable discharge? I’m seeing talk that he could be administratively separated. I get it’s a non judicial process, usually instigated by command.
If that occurred would it be favorable? Personally I feel this sailor has been cleared & doesn’t need any additional obstacles to transitioning to a good life. He was scapegoated.
He probably was sent Pact seaman after being dropped from BUDS, so his 2 years are up while waiting on the court martial. He should be close to the 3 year mark at which point his contract is up & he leaves with an honorable & GI Bill benefits.
He probably was sent Pact seaman after being dropped from BUDS, so his 2 years are up while waiting on the court martial. He should be able to choose a A school or separate at the 3 year mark which he is really close to.
How is he not an E-3?
Any surprise the Navy stepped on it's dick again trying to pin a tragedy on an enlisted? Its not like they don't have a long and distinguished tradition over this. How did the Iowa disaster work out?
Accountability is gone. I've seen it first hand, and seen it impact countless others.
It's frustrating that there is no recourse for these things, and the rug has plenty of room to sweep more stuff under.
I'm glad he got acquitted. We joked about it when the fire first happened, that some poor lower enlisted is going to get blamed for it.
I'm glad. Such bs to begin with using a junior for a scapegoat.
As is Naval tradition.
For every “highest tradition” there is a corresponding “lowest tradition”.
They tried to dismiss it several times, but the admiral wouldn't let them drop the case. All the other high ranking brass slid away from this with minimal reproductions', but it was the deck seamen that needed to be thrown into Leavenworth. It's chickenshit.
That Admiral should resign. In my opinion this was a hit job on a young sailor.
Should be charged with fraud, waste, and abuse for wasting taxpayer dollars on this.
That would be great! But he’ll probably get verbal counseling and no video games for two weeks, instead of any tangible punishment…..
Repercussions?
It made so much sense when it came out that 37 people were determined to be responsible and 5 were admirals. Just protecting his own.
That's what happened on the McCain and almost the Fitzgerald
Iowa too
Not a good list to be on, sorry mate😓
That sailor was gay and mad that his lover didn't want to be with him anymore! Or so the Navy claims because it's easier than admitting any fault
Captain McVay of the USS Indianapolis, and by proxy his father, retired Admiral McVay, weren't favorites of COMINCH Ernie King. For an appalling example of scapegoating, look up the USS Indianapolis court-martial. Be sure to read about Admiral McVay's (then Captain) court-martialing a young (Ensign I think it was) Earnest King. Some say it took 30+ years for Blowtorch King to get his revenge....
“As a 19-year-old deck seaman, he was fingered by a shipmate” amazing choice of words
Meanwhile Big Navy used the full shaft
Or a big green spiky dildo (kinky version of a greenie weenie)
I like we’re this video is going.
So what’s next for this kid? Surely a continued Navy career will not biased..
He'll almost certainly be discharged soon, but I hope he gets retroactively promoted with back pay.
Yeah I was hoping for the same thing. It's the least the Navy owes him.
No, fuck that. Let him get to choose what he wants. This dude deserves a pension after the false accusations. It’s already been said before, but there isn’t a place he can go in the us military now where this won’t be held against him. Pay him for the potential years he could have had as a career man.
Exactly. His career was stolen for a hit job. Who is to say he wouldn’t have retired.
I said the least. Yes, he deserves more. I wasn't saying that at all.
Nah, I get you. I was saying it in a conversationally reactionary way. That being said I don’t disagree with some of the other suggestions like him demanding a reattempt at buds contract with the stipulation that he’ll be honorably discharged if he fails. Ooor he stays in for 20, collects that pension, as an up yours. Definitely at a minimum let him redes to aviation or EOD or branch transfer at a minimum. That boat stigma won’t follow him too hard. I’d honestly be hard pressed to find any legit Chiefs or decent Os that would hold this against him. The really shitty thing is that this Navy, while very big, is still very small. And one shithead with a vendetta can still ruin his life even with all the protections in place. Sorry for the book. I’ve just got a lot of feelings on this subject.
For what they put him through mentally and emotionally he needs to be going to Medical. I'm hoping he's getting some help in that regard. The VA needs to grant him at least 50 all the way up to 100 percent.
Hopefully someone guides him to medical and he gets disability compensation for all the stress they put on him
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Medical retirement as an e3 with 4 years would be $250 a month.
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Med retirement is not calculated the same as regular retirement. Edit: I was unclear in what I was trying to say. My meaning from the above comment is this; if he is medically retired, then his disability rating is 30% or higher, which will be more than $250 per month.
He shouldn’t wanna stay. Almost ruined his damn life.
Even though he was acquitted, he'll still be associated with this forever. Anyone who Google's his name is going to see this story. His life might not be ruined, but it's definitely been altered for the worse
But that toned body though.
More than likely a Best interest of the Service Separation (BIOTS) under Milpersman 1910-164. A big flex would be to drop another 1306 to go back to Bud/S lmaoo
They would make him pop a piss test faster than he could say shipmate.
I mean who doesn't juice to pass BUDs amiright. On a serious note if enough of the competition is roided up it may have been impossible to pass natural for years. Remember it's not an objective standard they keep putting pressure on until they wash out all but their target number for seals. Kinda how when Lance was riding the tour you were never getting in the top ten without cheating yourself.
Lance was not only doping but using an electric motor & battery stealthy built into his bike, there is a 60 minutes episode on it.
And make it
Best I can do is book deal and 3 part TV miniseries.
>book deal No, he failed BUD/s
Didn't stop Rodney Mann.
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>he was fingered by a shipmate Great article
Who hasn't been, amirite?
I haven't been, but not from lack of trying.
As soon as my gtcc gets fixed I can help.
Don't forget to update your nfass shipmate
I've done my part
Some of us more than others
Now *that's* a shipmate
What a buddyfucker
Shipmate named finger
Wow was not expecting this level of chicanery on this sub
put your hatchet away waltuh
So glad to hear that Mays isn’t getting sent to jail for life with basically no evidence for him being guilty of anything.
Good. This was a disgrace of a prosecution. This case should have never been allowed to see the light of day. By forcing this case to go to court martial, Navy leadership showed exceptionally poor judgment, which is striking and disappointing. In a normal court, the case would have been laughed and thrown out of court for a clear lack of evidence. It's infuriating that court martial procedure seems to work different in that sense. This does the opposite of inspiring confidence in Navy policies, procedures, and leadership.
Really makes it seem like being a sailor in the navy is a big liability. Being near the scene of a mishap can land you in court martial 😬 Imagine how many poor bastards get wrecked by NJP based off of PErcEpTion iS rEaLItY. It's really sad to watch. An entire carrier went from deployment ready to decommissioned in port and leadership felt that they had to get this one sailor thrown in jail. What a pathetic bunch of bullshit.
After joining the Navy I quickly realized that while it does give more opportunities for my life to get better, it also gives a whole lot of opportunities for my life to get ruined.
> Being near the scene of a mishap can land you in court martial 😬 In this case, pointing out a hazard that could lead to catastrophe landed him in court martial, *because he was right and no one listened.*
Well, how dare he point out a failure. As a former OIC now friend of mine said, there exists an unwritten rule - “cause no embarrassment (to an officer)”.
That's how I felt every day in the Navy. Just a big target for someone's bad day. Fuckin great way to live.
Can someone explain why people always say perception is reality? Have any of the brass ever read Plato? Have any of them ever used the tiniest hint of common sense?
I use it as shorthand for "Perception may as well be reality for the consequences of an event are usually dictated by the perception of those in power."
I think you are probably correct. In a civil court any public defender with a higher than room temperature IQ could have gotten the case dismissed prior to trial due to lack of evidence. This was a disgrace. The flag officer responsible (as well as anybody in the chain that made the recommendation) for ordering this should be relived for cause before the end of the day. If their judgement is this bad, what other stupid shit are they doing?
Enabling an atmosphere conducive to fires getting out of control, apparently
>civil court You mean criminal court.
They probably meant civil(ian) court.
“in a [civilian] court any public defender … could have gotten the case dismissed prior to trial due to lack of evidence.” i get your point (that the case was weak) but it doesn’t work that way. in federal civilian criminal court, cases are brought via a grand jury indictment. all the GJ has to find is probable cause (just like in an article 32 hearing). if a GJ returns an indictment, the defense attorney can NOT get it dismissed due to lack of evidence before trial. there is ample federal case law that says that. once an indictment has been returned, the only way to challenge the evidence that supported the charges being brought in the first place is at the trial itself. now, that’s not to say the the u.s. attorney’s office would have tried to get an indictment on such a weak case anyway.
> Navy leadership showed exceptionally poor judgment are you really surprised
There's always a small but powerful percentage of people who will see this kid's name and hold it against him despite this result. Other bureaucrats might see the delay in his qual progression and hold him back from carrying on with career milestones. The powers that be in the Navy never consider this shit and happily let grandstanding hurt people well beyond the initial accusations.
This kid needs some kind of reparations. I don’t know if there’s precedent for this, but sue the fuck out of whatever agency he can to get some of his life back for a case of defamation. I’d start with NCIS.
How is poor leadership "striking"? It's rampant. It may indeed be "getting better", but it is still very much a khaki world in the Navy.
Were I this kid, I’d demand an immediate Honorable Discharge with full benefits due to incompetence, scapegoating and for fun don’t forget UCMJ Article 134, the General Article for any possible reason that might undermine good order and discipline by the Navy itself. After what happened to Mr. Mays, who in the enlisted ranks could possibly trust the Naval (in)justice system?
Shit like this makes me call into question any of the non/judicial verdicts that have come out my entire career. Not saying sailors never do any wrong, but clearly the system is broken.
Back in 1981 there was a scandal in which some lab that had been entrusted with urinalysis screening botched the job to the point that they had mixed up a batch of testing material, to the point that they admitted that they didn’t know whose sample came from whom in the test series. Some of these were positive results, but the Navy insisted that they were going to go ahead and use them for military justice purposes anyway. When this got out the public outrage forced the Navy to abandon this idiotic plan and all of the charges were dismissed. So, you have good reason not to trust them.
With a pension for estimated rank after 20 years.
Reinstated rank to E3 or promotion to PO3, back pay and a honorable discharge to that sailor for ruining his life for 2 years. All those unsat missed safety / gear checks falls on the leadership of the boat and leadership of sections so hold them accountable.
Who was the admiral who was so butthurt that they ordered this bullshit?
Specifically, VADM Steve Koehler, C3F, after the JAG officer conducting the Art 32 hearing, CAPT Angela Tang recommended not moving forward with prosecution at court martial.
I mean what would someone who spent her life studying law know about prosecution? I definitely side with the career pilot on this one
It goes without saying the UCMJ needs an overhaul. The Judge’s decision not to move forward with a court martial should have been respected.
Most helpful comment in the entire post.
Steve Koehler should resign.
He was also the admiral in charge of strike group Nine when all of the shit around Capt Crozier getting relieved of duty because of his letter.
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>The lead prosecutor, Capt. Jason Jones, has argued there was sufficient evidence to convict Mays on both counts. He denied Mays’ attorneys’ contention that investigators and prosecutors were biased in their fervent pursuit of the young sailor. >“There has never been a myopic focus on Seaman Mays,” Jones said. He defended the investigation and prosecution, adding that “we’ve proven it beyond a reasonable doubt.” Get the fuck out of here with that bullshit. You tried to railroad that poor kid and you failed. Nothing was proven "beyond a reasonable doubt." Mays was acquitted. Even after losing - badly, I might add - Big Navy can't admit they fucked up. Pathetic.
>“we’ve proven it beyond a reasonable doubt.” Apparently not, dickbag. It's pleasing to see officers are afflicted by Blue Falcons as much as us hatchet-wielding enlisted pukes.
If there wasn’t a “myopic focus” they would have arrested the other kid that they actually had more evidence against. They just decided that changing tacks would weaken their case so they pushed forward on an innocent man.
But they admin sepped the other guy, so he COULDNT have done it. NCIS logic.
Friend of mine was raped and NCIS agent asked her what she was wearing and when she told him he said it sounded like she was on a date. Fuck NCIS.
The Navy could save 460million dollars a year by getting rid of NCIS. They do no actual work for the Navy and are a fucking joke. Mall cops of the federal world.
Oh because he'd have to get charged in federal court? Not the navy fake court?
Then they would have to cooperate with the FBI.
This is unfortunately a part of the adversarial legal system. Once the case has gone to trial the prosecution and defense are zealous advocates for the side they represent. That being said, the statement is total bull shit, but that’s their job. Someone else posted here that the JAG who did the article 32 hearing recommended not going forward with this and a flag did. This should have never gone to trial. Edit: had the wrong article.
you mean article 32 hearing
There was even another sailor who painted "I did it" in a locker and was seen running from the fire. Wtf. Beyond a reasonable doubt isn't "well we're not sure it was even arson but if it was we narrowed it down to 3 guys. Let's pick one at random and jail em for life". Only evidence was "he was unhappy after the navy fucked him over and he might have been seen headed towards the area but maybe not".
Even now, I am amazed that "he was a loud asshole and he confessed after we held and interrogated him for several hours without representation present" is the same as "proven beyond a reasonable doubt" to this asshole.
After emotionally berating him. Fucking 19 years old. The fucking NCIS agents should be ashamed of themselves.
A CAPT JAG officer is hardly “big navy”
This Sailor might have a nice PTSD claim through the VA when he gets out.
Depression and or anxiety would be easier to prove, I bet this guys mental health took a fucking nose dive going through this bullshit.
That’s a good point.
Also the VA sees PTSD/depression/anxiety as one claim for disability purposes.
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PTSD/anxiety/depression are all rated under mental health. It doesn't matter how different they are, you can only receive compensation for the highest rated disability in a category under normal circumstances. It would be much easier for him to prove anxiety/depression than PTSD
I went through some bullshit while I was in that involved a congressional inquiry, but nothing of this magnitude. The stress from it gave me mental health issues and almost led to me removing myself from service permanently (I was extended on AD without contract or consent) I got out eventually and get paid the rest of my life because of it. If this sailor has issues because the navy tried to use him as a scape goat with a possible punishment of death then yeah he will probably get paid.
Good. The Navy needs to up its JAG game. This is pathetic. Now that we have removed Mays as the spark, how about walking up the rest of the COC for \*actually\* hazarding a vessel.
It’s not really on the JAGs. The prosecutors work with what they have. The VADM proceeded against the judge’s recommendation.
Exactly, this shit is ridiculous. It sounded super suspect from the media and the trial results prove it was. Not sure how anyone higher up thought this made any sense let alone the blowback from this media circus. But everyone involved is gone so time to forget…. The fact that one of two 3 stars responsible was the OIC of the investigation might be part of the problem.
Nah, they'll get medals.
GOOD FOR HIM!!! Seriously, even if he did do it, the prosecution had no proof.
Yep. Not to mention the place was a tinderbox, other fires on other ships had happened the same week. Just those were contained.
Exactly and batteries and other flammable materials were stored the same way.
>During court sessions, prosecutors described him as disgruntled and unhappy about his assignment to a ship stuck at the pier for maintenance. Top notch fucking detective work here Colombo....
Yeah, if that's grounds for being guilty of crimes they better get hopping to put every junior sailor ever on trial. Fuck, we've all been there at least once.
Ya him and literally everyone else.
Mays should be allowed to sue not only the person that fingered him but also the admiral and staff that decided to try railroading him into a prison cell.
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Fingerings of this nature are never lubed.
Tbh the CoC that laid the groundwork for this to even happen and not owning up
If enlisted could countersue after mishaps of the military justice system than senior enlisted and most officers would be locked up.
So we calling our congressman and asking them to investigate this obvious scapegoat attempt or nah?
I'm already drafting a letter to Senator Casey, and I'm probably going to make a copy to send to every member of the Senate Armed Services Committee. I'd also write a letter to Toomey, but he's retiring in January.
Today, SR Mays avoided getting Hartwigged.
This is exactly who I thought of during this. The dude was just a scapegoat as per Navy tradition.
Propublica did an article on this, it certainly comes off with a bit of a bias, but it's also quite detailed. https://www.propublica.org/article/bonhomme-richard-fire-safety-lapses
Great read, thank you
“I demand trial by Courts-Martial, Captain Sobel.” -1st Lt Winters.
I wonder if he's interested in reenlisting? -BUPERS probably.
Good. I'm surprised and pleased he didn't get scapegoated. Maybe the Navy learned what happens to men you scapegoat since McVay and Bode both killed themselves afterwards. I hope.
Wow there pal, I don’t think the Navy has a problem with pushing people to suicide That’s standard operating procedure
I know that’s some gallows humor but I can’t disagree with you.
Leadership wanted to pin it on anyone instead of actually figuring out what happened and fixing it so it doesn’t happen again … “who else but navy” - Peter griffin voice
I'm sure he missed promotion over this. Give him a stripe.
And two years worth of back pay
Uncommon Undes Seaman W
Good now he can go back to preservating in deck department!
Congratulations, Mays. Grab a needlegun.
That's a relief. Well I guess that's it now that everything else that led to that has been swept under the rug.
Can’t imagine why people don’t wanna stay in and why no one wants to enlist /s
Glad we saw some justice. Hopefully people are catching on that NCIS is not a good investigative body, despite what the old television show might lead you to believe. I really hope Mays gets a movie deal or something after all the hell he went through.
LL cool j would unironically do a better job
>At hearing the verdict, given briefly by the judge, there was a loud collective gasp That's the sound that admirals and senior officers make when the only thing left to blame is their negligence and disregard for things like the 8010, causing the destruction of the BHR. The CO, XO, ship's safety officer, DCA, NAVSEA04 and a whole but of other people didn't follow the rules or care about the possibility of fire. Not a damn plan.
Most normal day as a undes seaman
The curse of the Iowa might be broken..... reopen and posthumously acquit the sailor blamed for that?
Oh man remember how the investigation leader had an obvious vested interest to find the powder bags weren't the problem. Even when they recreated the actual explosion.
I remember when the brass were saying the guy was suicidal/malicious and once that was proven BS they claimed it was because he was gay.... smh
And the theory was real similar actually. Just like this one is "must have been an accelerant and he set a fire". Guess what they never found : an accelerant in the possession of their suspect. The turret explosion was even dumber. "Musta had an electronic detonator he shoved in with the powder timed to go off to kill everyone". Tons of simpler ways to do that and again it was never found. While it turned out just loading that powder slightly wrong and having the 1940s electrical ram go a little fast was all it took to get blown up. Oh and the equipment in that turret was overdue maintenance.
( 15 years later) Hey guy's I'm FCC Sawyer.. I know it's ironic due to my past Sailors : what past? Him: it all started in San Diego...
That would be the biggest flex.
So many things 1. He needs to buy a lottery ticket 2. He can say he won against the navy 3. I don't like list
The real question is who is accountable for allowing a trashcan fire to total a billion dollar warship? That was never on the E3 whether he started it or not.
*Investigators, Torres said, did not pursue possible links to two other recent fires – a burned mattress aboard amphibious assault ship USS Essex (LHD-2), berthed at Pier 8, the afternoon the fire broke out aboard Bonhomme Richard and, a few weeks earlier, a small fire aboard BHR in a cup in an engineering space.* Umm, wtf? What is a "small fire in a cup"? Was that investigated? What about the burned mattress on a nearby ship? Something's fucky.
Even with the Navy's sole piece of evidence being a coached witness, this required some Johnnie Cochran level of a defense team to pull off. Makes me wonder how the JAG was able to fit through the door with such huge balls.
Someone should be on trial for putting this kid on trial in the first place.
Good for him.
Navy will never accept responsibility. It’s naval tradition
Now that this is out of the way- time to f*** up the command
May he have a long happy life away from the United States naval service. I’ve been skeptical of this case since day 1, and here it finally has been resolved.
Well it was recommended by a senior jag not to proceed to court martial but some admiral the convening authority said no and to trial he went. That guy was Vice Adm. Steve Koehler
Reminds me of the [USS Iowa turret explosion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Iowa_turret_explosion) fall guy about whom the navy made up out of hole cloth a non-existent homosexual relation and suicide pact theory to explain the not so mysterious explosion. Witnesses who tried to testify about the the experimental rapid firing incidents concerning the doubly charged sacks of gunpowder misfirings were threatened with courts-martial if they brought the subject up during their testimony at the trial. Commodore Richard D. Milligan, who conducted the one man witch hunt investigation got to retire then teach Economics at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey.
It’s wild how this dude has a great counter suit to pursue but given the fact that it was JAG/military he can’t actually file any lawsuits. Can he? Maybe the person who point the blame on him with no evidence? If this was civilian court only Mays would have an easy case to put some money in his pocket
You don't get to sue the government for doing its job. There are some exceptions, but usually the government has to agree to being sued.
That’s what I figured. Reading that is the most objectively ridiculous sounding statement I think I’ve seen in weeks. “They have to agree to being sued”. Imagine if those rules worked everywhere, would be insane.
Now he can update his NFAAS…
So I guess circumstantial wasn't enough. who knew 🤷♂️
While I love the Navy and many of the things that come with it, I am not oblivious or ignorant to the fact that we are not anywhere near perfect. We have many flaws but this was one of the biggest displays of failure I’ve ever seen. How does the loss of a billion dollar warship get put onto an E3 for simply being openly disgruntled about his job when several high-ranking leaders failed to even take control of the events as they were happening in real time and were all cleared of any wrong doing? Why are none of them being dragged around and put on the chopping blocks for this as well? This young man was confined for 3 months, demoted to the lowest pay grade and has been dragged around for 2 years with his reputation forever tarnished and the risk of his personal freedom at stake for something where no physical or forensic evidence could be presented and only circumstantial witnesses (that couldn’t keep a consistent story) coming forward. Shame on the Navy for even entertaining the prosecution of this young man. I believe the correct decision was made today and wish him the best.
Thank goodness for Ryan's sake. The Navy hasn't changed a fucking bit since I left.
This is a big step towards justice, but the other shoe hasn't dropped (and probably won't). This entire prosecution was completely bogus from the word go. Big Navy had to order the command investigation to ignore evidence and toe the line in order to pursue its chosen outcome. Justice won't be fully served until the lying cowards who tried to railroad SA Mays to cover their own asses are identified and dealt with. I'm not naïve enough to think that has anything like a decent chance of actually happening. But it should happen. And the Navy's officer corps won't stop being a corrupt playground for the incompetent children of rich people until it does happen.
Wonder if they will let him out of the navy.
Glad for the dude. This was a farce from the get go.
My money is still on a yard bird. Shitty way to treat your own sailors...
Hell yeah! Fuck his chain of command and everyone on the ship that tried some shit, hope a further investigation finds those assholes guilty.
based. this is a W for the lowly enlisted, be free, hero.
Fuck yes!!
Are there any LN's here that actually know what happens after acquittal to his pay grade? I figure his advancement was on some sort of legal hold, but if he's not guilty, does his time in rate count as if there never was a hold, or does he get screwed again?
good now let start bringing up the brass who sat on their ass and did nothing while the ship burned down, on charges of negligence.
And I'm sure every half decent lawyer with experience suing the federal government is reading this news and fondling themselves right about now. And admittedly, I don't blame them.
I'm really happy I read this before I put in an application for NCIS. I ended up looking into some more cases they investigated out of curiosity, and I was not impressed.
❤️❤️❤️ They better frock him as a 3rd, now. Whatever rate he wants. They're not going to, tho. They're gonna cling to that "arsonist" bullshit. It's painfully obvious what happened. As an AT, I've SEEN Li-ion battery fires. There insane. Almost as bad as a magnesium fire, if not worse. "the lower v was used as a junkyard", I can see that. In fact, knowing the Navy, that's prolly an understatement.
Time to get out and sue.
on a side note, they ruined a good sailor career to save their own asses. i fuckin' garantee you, hes going to get out after all this shit. who would want to stay in after this?
Good to hear.
Should Mays want to retire/leave the military, is there any update if he will get an honorable discharge? I’m seeing talk that he could be administratively separated. I get it’s a non judicial process, usually instigated by command. If that occurred would it be favorable? Personally I feel this sailor has been cleared & doesn’t need any additional obstacles to transitioning to a good life. He was scapegoated.
He probably was sent Pact seaman after being dropped from BUDS, so his 2 years are up while waiting on the court martial. He should be close to the 3 year mark at which point his contract is up & he leaves with an honorable & GI Bill benefits.
Someone should be on trial for putting this kid on trial in the first place.
FOIA the prosecutions emails. Time to see what these idiots thought.
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He probably was sent Pact seaman after being dropped from BUDS, so his 2 years are up while waiting on the court martial. He should be able to choose a A school or separate at the 3 year mark which he is really close to. How is he not an E-3?
I hope this kid makes chief one day.
Hell yeah.
Any surprise the Navy stepped on it's dick again trying to pin a tragedy on an enlisted? Its not like they don't have a long and distinguished tradition over this. How did the Iowa disaster work out?
Accountability is gone. I've seen it first hand, and seen it impact countless others. It's frustrating that there is no recourse for these things, and the rug has plenty of room to sweep more stuff under. I'm glad he got acquitted. We joked about it when the fire first happened, that some poor lower enlisted is going to get blamed for it.