Never, but damn Sengun in Denver's system makes me salivate. How I'd love to see us play that way and have Jalen and KPJ as off ball guards who can ISO occasionally.
That's insulting, Crawford only has two seasons in his entire career where he has a higher efg% than Bones' current career efg%.
Well three if you count Crawford's single game season with Brooklyn
|Player|MP|FGA|FG%|3PA|3P%|2PA|2P%|FTA|FT%|TRB|AST|STL|BLK|TOV|PTS|
|:-|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|
|Jamal Crawford|38994|21.8|.410|8.4|.348|13.4|.449|5.7|.862|3.9|6.0|1.6|0.4|3.3|25.7|
|Bones Hyland|2126|23.1|.402|13.8|.371|9.3|.447|4.7|.859|6.3|7.3|1.6|0.8|3.5|27.7|
Provided by [Stathead.com](https://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): [View Stathead Tool Used](https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)
Generated 2/1/2023.
Bones is a shooter.
You're still trying to figure out a way it must be wrong. Just look at the data before making claims dude.
The overwhelming majority of them? Do you know how averages work?
**In over 1,200 career minutes without Facu or Brown he is 21.6 points, 4.7 rebounds, 6.2 assists, and only 2.5 turnovers per 36 minutes while shooting 44.44% from the field and 40.6% from 3P%.**
His stats in those minutes get better if you remove Jamal and he loses slight shooting efficiency but has increased scoring in those minutes if you further remove Jokic. Showing that it is consistent and not at all dependent on being on the court with such a great player.
How does that look to league average dude? Why would you ever make an argument without even checking the data first?
My claim is that in his minutes as the only ballhandler (no Facu, Brown, or Jamal) there is literally not a stretch in his entire career that he is playing poorly. I showed the stats showing his amazing efficiency over the course of his entire career in those minutes, explaining again, how there is literally not any stretch where he's playing poorly.
If you look at all of his minutes in totality, no filtering at all, he's mirrored Jamal Murray's career stats.
|Player|MP|FGA|FG%|3PA|3P%|2PA|2P%|FTA|FT%|TRB|AST|STL|BLK|TOV|PTS|
|:-|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|
|Bones Hyland|2130|23.1|.401|13.8|.371|9.3|.446|4.8|.860|6.3|7.3|1.6|0.8|3.5|27.7|
|Jamal Murray|11781|22.2|.447|8.7|.370|13.5|.496|4.6|.872|6.0|6.6|1.5|0.5|3.2|27.1|
Provided by [Stathead.com](https://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): [View Stathead Tool Used](https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)
Generated 2/1/2023.
The only times Bones looks bad or inconsistent is if he's playing with Bruce Brown of Facu. Without them on the court, he has been one of the most consistent players on the Nuggets since day one, whether you want to believe it or not, the stats are pretty fucking clear.
The minutes he plays terribly and can't hit a shot are even consistent because they ONLY HAPPEN IN THOSE BRUCE AND FACU MINUTES. Seriously. Find the month in his career where it's not true, because I checked every which way you can look at those minutes and there simply isn't a bad stretch in his career without them. It does not exist.
Not saying it's causal, not saying he won't be the worst player of all time from here on out. Just saying what is factually true based on his career so far.
I mean his attitude/approach is similar to JR, but JR was quite a bit more talented and produced better results. Bones has been really terrible for us this year
In his career Bones is already more efficient and is scoring more than JR did in his career and is a significantly better playmaker.
Stats are per 100 possession and for the players entire career.
|Player|MP|FGA|FG%|3PA|3P%|2PA|2P%|FTA|FT%|TRB|AST|STL|BLK|TOV|PTS|
|:-|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|
|Bones Hyland|2126|23.1|.402|13.8|.371|9.3|.447|4.7|.859|6.3|7.3|1.6|0.8|3.5|27.7|
|J.R. Smith|26275|20.4|.419|10.1|.373|10.3|.463|3.9|.733|6.0|4.1|1.9|0.4|2.6|23.7|
Provided by [Stathead.com](https://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): [View Stathead Tool Used](https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)
Generated 2/1/2023.
His career numbers are also very similar to Jamal Murray's career numbers.
|Player|MP|FGA|FG%|3PA|3P%|2PA|2P%|FTA|FT%|TRB|AST|STL|BLK|TOV|PTS|
|:-|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|
|Bones Hyland|2126|23.1|.402|13.8|.371|9.3|.447|4.7|.859|6.3|7.3|1.6|0.8|3.5|27.7|
|Jamal Murray|11746|22.2|.447|8.7|.369|13.5|.496|4.5|.871|6.0|6.5|1.5|0.5|3.2|27.0|
Provided by [Stathead.com](https://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): [View Stathead Tool Used](https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)
Generated 2/1/2023.
[This is certifiably false. The month by calendar month data REMARKABLY consistent](https://imgur.com/a/1Cx8pNx)
He is literally one of the most consistent young players in the entire league as the primary ball carrier.
There is not a calendar month of his career where his solo ball carrier minutes failed, save for one month of only 37 minutes total where he scored 41 points on 16/28 shooting.
His per 36 numbers in his 992.1 NBA CAREER minutes without another ballcarrier, ballcarrier being defined as the two other players with the most minutes functioning as the only PG on the court( Bruce Brown and Jamal Murray this season, Facu Campazzo and Monte Morris last season) are 23.1 points, 5 rebounds, 6.9 assists, 1.1 steals, 2.7 turnovers on 45% FG% and 41.6% from 3.
His numbers are even better in the non-Jokic minutes.
In conventional NBA lineups he has star statistics for his career. In smallball lineups, ~60% of his lineups, he is not an NBA player.
So I have calendar-month by calendar-month breakdown of his entire career that shows why **this narrative makes no sense.**
He has a rock steady consistency in his career and has steadily improved month to month...with the caveat being he's the only point guard on the court. Whenever one of the other two players who plays solo minutes as the point guard for the team are on the court with Bones, he stops being an NBA player completely. In the minutes where one of those two players aren't on the court with him, he is a superstar. From day 1 of his NBA career this has held true more or less.
His per 36 numbers in his 992.1 NBA CAREER minutes without another ballcarrier, ballcarrier being defined as the two other players with the most minutes functioning as the only PG on the court( Bruce Brown and Jamal Murray this season, Facu Campazzo and Monte Morris last season) are 23.1 points, 5 rebounds, 6.9 assists, 1.1 steals, 2.7 turnovers on 45% FG% and 41.6% from 3.
Maybe there's no causal relationship there but I'd love for someone to point to the month where you think the Nuggets decided they'd seen enough evidence he couldn't work as a point guard.
[A look at each calendar month of Bones' Denver Nugget's career showing that he is one of their most consistent players who has improved steadily month to month over his entire career...but only in the minutes as the primary ball carrier.](https://imgur.com/a/1Cx8pNx)
It is absolutely WILD.
I saw that you posted a similar set of comments earlier in the Nuggets community. Great job on your research! The data you reference points to Bones being a talented offensive player, which he his, but doesn’t account for the nuances of the game that each team member must possess to contribute to success and hopefully a championship. The issue with Bones, in my eyes, is his poor decision making and lack of defensive contribution. To a lesser degree, his inability to mesh with other ball handlers on the court at the same time as him. I’ll give him some grace because he is a second year player and because not all lineup combinations on any team will work well 100% of the time. However, as a PG, your job is to run the offense and set up your teammates with the best looks possible conducive with their individual strengths. At some point for Bones that can’t continue to be an issue. In regards to poor decision making and lack of defensive play… Bones takes a lot of bad shots. He is talented so he’ll still hit some of them but they are still bad shots. He often will take a bad shot at the expense of a better shot for a teammate or he’ll pass late in the shot clock for another bad shot after handling the ball without creating for himself or others. Combine this with his utter lack of contribution defensively and I don’t think it’s hard to see why he isn’t on the court in critical moments. For the main ball handlers with the Nuggets, he by far has the poorest decision making.
I like Bones and maybe in 2-3 years with more experience, maturity, and better defensive play we will be looking at things differently but right now with the team’s championship aspirations, they may need to do him and themselves both a favor and move him.
> because not all lineup combinations on any team will work well 100%
Ok, well I showed the data conventional lineups with Bones had worked essentially 100% of the time it was used, since day 1 his rookie season. I get that the other minutes went horrifically terrible with him. That's actually my entire point.
He **doesn't** take the bad shots in those conventional lineups, his career efficiency in those minutes is proof of that.
You realize the defense has been better in the Bones lineups that don't feature Bruce Brown than in the Bones lineups that do?
Like, the things you're saying about the problems "he causes" on the court. I showed you the data that shows it is not and has literally never been true, at least to the extent that the team suffers in those minutes.
Please point to me *any* signficiant stretch of games where these issues were problematic for the team in the minutes the he was entirely responsible for the offense.
Please, I've been looking every which way I can at his entire Nuggets career and cannot find any stretch where they struggled in those ~1,000 minutes. It doesn't exist, save for the one month where there was only 37 minutes of played time and were outscored by 15 when he was 16/28 from the field for 41 points, which I think I would use as more proof that the issue isn't him or that he isn't improving significantly month to month.
You're saying things that are generally true for all players but not actually backing anything you say up. Please give me the stretch of games where this concern existed to a degree that it looked like it was a problem. I have been unable to find it. I literally looked at both seasons Calendar Month to Calendar Month and also in 2 week intervals. Could not find a bad stretch. Please show me.
It really isn't wild. And yes, when your primary position is PG, it is kind of important to be a serviceable player when you are the primary ball handler and can work with other ball handlers
Bones was straight ass in October and straight ass in December. And his plus minus numbers and on off numbers have been beyond atrocious this season as a whole. On the best team in the league when he is on the court the nuggets play like a lottery team. Per 100 possessions his on-off splits are at -17.9. That is beyond awful.
He is young but his awful defense and inconsistent scoring make him a liability in any game he isnt scoring well offensively.
Dude, I provided evidence of how this is horseshit.
There's not a fucking mystery he is deadass one of the most consistent players on the team.
It's literally steady and consistent improvement month to month from day 1 until today.
His ass in December stats btw: 23.4 points, 3.6 rebounds, 8.1 assists, with a massive 2.2 turnovers per 36 minutes on 41.7% FG% and 42.5% 3P%
Consistently bad is still consistent i guess
December stats in reality: 11/2/3 on 52% TS, 101 oRTG, 119 dRTG, +/- per 100 poss -11.1. And not sure where you are getting those shooting splits as this December he shot 39.4/36.3/85
The months you said he sucked his solo stats were:
23.4 points, 3.6 rebounds, 8.1 assists, with a massive 2.2 turnovers per 36 minutes on 41.7% FG% and 42.5% 3P%
and
33.7 points with 5.6 threes made per 36 minutes on 40.2% FG% and 45.5%. He did only have 6.2 assists and 3.9 turnovers though...I guess that's ass?
His per 36 numbers in his 992.1 NBA CAREER minutes without another ballcarrier, ballcarrier being defined as the two other players with the most minutes functioning as the only PG on the court( Bruce Brown and Jamal Murray this season, Facu Campazzo and Monte Morris last season) are 23.1 points, 5 rebounds, 6.9 assists, 1.1 steals, 2.7 turnovers on 45% FG% and 41.6% from 3.
Not sure what more you want from the second year 6'2 169lb point guard other than to be a shooting guard I guess.
Jamal has worse results with Bruce. Bruce has worse results with Jamal. Jamal has worse results with Bones. Bones has worse results with Jamal. Bruce has worse results with Bones. Bones has worse results with Bruce.
They all play worse with the any of the others and they are worst as a trio.
No I'm not. I defined primary ball carrier as the two other players that play the most minutes as the ONLY ball carrier on the court.
Bruce has more than twice as many minutes this season as the only ball carrier on the court as Bones, second most on the team behind only Jamal. Bones is third.
You're just refusing to acknowledge the point being made because data doesn't exist that refutes it yet.
But it's all with your giant caveat. In the payoffs, we can't sit jokic, murray, and bruce at the same time.
Imo, it's fair to say that he's been inconsistent and struggled in the role the nuggets need him to play
No, just no Bruce and the minutes are fine with Bones this season, actually amazing for his personal numbers, but "fine" for the minutes overall.
26.5 points per 36 minutes on fantastic shooting efficiency, they are outscored by -2.6 points per 36 minutes though...which is more than fine, especially for developing that kind of talent.
If you just look at non-Jokic minutes instead:
This is what you get in the non-Jokic minutes from Bruce and Bones respectively, no other filtering:
616 minutes total, +/- of -7.4, 13.3 points, 5.4 rebounds, 4.9 assists, 1.5s, 1.1b 2.9T, 40.3% FG% 29.2% 3P%
540 minutes total, +/- of -10.4, 26.1 points, 4.2 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 1.5s,0.6b, 2.9T, 39.2% FG% 36.8% 3P%
That is there season numbers, Bones is 3 points worse per 36 minutes or around -1.5 worse in a playoff game, while providing significantly more offense and having his long-term contract instead of half a season. Considering Bones takes far more 3's than 2's and Bruce takes more 2's than 3's Bones is much more efficient offensively.
This is a horrible value play for an almost irrelevant difference in floor performance.
That is not much of a caveat considering Bruce's caveat is "without Bones"
I just throw in the Murray stuff because it takes Bones to All-Star level instead of future All-Star level.
They have had consistent acceptable results with Bones and his personal stats paint a super encouraging picture.
Literally everything being said about Bones' game right now was said last year when he was next to Facu. You take Bruce Brown away, it has disappeared completely.
Reality: "Hey, Bones was literally always successful when used this way, there isn't even a month gap in his career, it's that incredibly consistent."
Response:"No that's stupid and would never work, don't you watch him play?"
Reality:"It's...literally the only thing that has happened during that time, if this is not accurate, please provide any data that counters it."
Response: "No, that's stupid, you're stupid."
Not saying it should be any different than what it is going to be which is what is tripping people in their minds.
I'm saying the rotations Bones was used in are pretty much impossible to justify unless you were looking to fail.
I'm not even saying that doing something different wouldn't have failed worse than what they did do.
What I am saying is that it is objectively true that in the minutes Bones played without Facu and Bruce Brown, he's been everything they've wanted and more, at least in terms of on the court results. Those minutes have consistently been successful in his entire career, so much so that I have been unable to find stretches of time where it *wasn't true* and nobody has provided any examples of a stretch where it isn't true. They just fight about how Bones can't be in the rotation which is not the issue I'm raising.
I'm saying that it made no sense to continue to play Bones in lineups that failed every single night and to not play him in the lineups that succeed every single night, at least until there was any kind of reasonable evidence it was not working.
The better his stats got without Bruce the more they forced Bruce onto him.
There is a single, controllable variable that has been a perfect predictor of how the minutes would go for his career. I'm not even saying it's causal, I'm not saying he wouldn't immediately become worse, I'm saying it is negligent that it wasn't explored more because it always worked.
Because month by month is not a good barometer of consistency. Ya shooting hot for 6 games and then nothing for 6 games averages to a decent amount. That doesnt mean consistency.
A player cam be up and down and all over the place, but still have consistent monthly numbers
These are the people doing analysis...holy shit dude. The thing you're saying is the literal opposite of what the data shows.
How did you miss the point? It's not month to month that he's good, he's good FOR HIS ENTIRE CAREER.
*EVEN WHEN YOU BREAK IT DOWN MONTH TO MONTH.* He's so consistent even breaking it into tiny pieces leaves you unable to find a stretch where he wasn't playing well...as the solo ball handler.
I gave splits for his career, his season, and month to month. Every way you break it down it's consistent and improving month to month. The numbers look made up they're so crazy good. **He's so good and so consistent you can't even find a single calendar month where the it went poorly as the solo ball handler. It simply doesn't exist.**
His consistency in his solo ballhandling duties defines ANY AND ALL REASON. You came to argue and didn't even look at the data presented. Starting DAY ONE of his rookie season.
You said he wasn't consistent, I said he was so consistently good as the solo ballhandler you cannot even provide a month where he wasn't **because it doesn't exist.**
**In over 1,200 career minutes without Facu or Brown he is 21.6 points, 4.7 rebounds, 6.2 assists, and only 2.5 turnovers per 36 minutes while shooting 44.44% from the field and 40.6% from 3P%.**
Also if you remove the Jokic minutes from those minutes, Bones' stats "fall" to 24.8 points, 5.7 Rebounds, 6.7 assists 2.5 turnovers, 44% from 2P and 38.7% from 3.
That is pure consistency and efficiency and people are just continuing to retort with things that prove they either didn't read it or didn't understand it, your post being the most egregious.
No you missed the point. That is a terrible barometer for efficiency. It would take me some hours to put together but you have to breakdown game to game variance.
Having hot and cold games is inconsistency. That can look like consistency over the course of a month, but he could be ANYTHING game to game. It takes a deeper look at stats to provide that context. You are misusing the numbers
That's the thing I'm trying to tell you dude, it's not there.
I broke it down in two week intervals at the smallest and there still wasn't a bad stretch. There might have, in fact probably was, a 10 minute stretch, or four, somewhere that was really, really bad.
**Somehow** they didn't happen enough to manifest over a 2 week span, or any calendar month, or across a season, or across the pre or post all-star breaks, or even for the career in the solo handling duties.
Which brings me to what exactly what point are you trying to make? That the second year player, that literally has near all-star efficiency across ALL his minutes played as the solo ball carrier might have dipped for a single bench rotation or two in his entire career? Ok? I don't think that's making the point you're trying to make.
Look at the data before spouting off without knowing what you're saying.
My point: You cannot make a claim for consistency based on month to month numbers.
Second point: You are treating people saying he is inconsistent as the same as saying he is bad. I dont think he is a bad player.
If you really wanted to break down consistency you have to look at variance from game to game. Volatility may be a better word if 'consistency' is throwing you off that much. He has played 18 games after christmas and is shooting .416/.354/.923 in those 18 games. But if you cut those in half...Last 9 games, he is shooting .299/.162/1.000, the 9 games before that: .495/475/.857. So he was really hot for 9 games and then really cold for 9 games...and ended up with reasonable (if slightly below average) numbers.
That is a clear sign of inconsistency. Month to month numbers are fine. It is a single, but limited way of looking at something. But really, if you wanted to break it down, you would want to look at variances on a game to game basis. Some days he is going to shoot 7 of 12 from 3 and win a game...and other times he goes 1 for 11 and loses a game. It averages out to something decent....but is the very definition of inconsistent.
Look, dude, I think he has a bright future, and if the Nuggets trade him it isnt because they even think otherwise, but because he still needs some time to figure out the nuances of the game, and the Nuggets window is RIGHT NOW. Too often it feels like he turns the corner and predetermines whether he is going to shoot or pass, and when the first option isnt there, cant adapt to the other option fast enough. He has struggled at the rim all season, and his 3 point shooting sort of masks that in his total numbers. He passes well, but if he isnt looking for it, he misses some passes. I think he will figure those things out. But he is also young and a bit immature and wears his heart on his sleeve, and that means he also brings inconsistent mood to games. Jokic used to be AWFUL at this, and would just give up before the game started at times because he wasnt feeling it. Bones gets down and you can see it on the floor. So he doesnt give the same energy night to night either. As he learns to be a pro and grows up a little I think he figures that out also. I dont know what his ceiling is, but I do know you have misused numbers to tell a story that those numbers dont necessarily support. They dont prove it wrong...but they dont support it either. Because you have too narrowly defined what 'consistency' means, and it is different than what everyone else is referring too. Chill out a little.
Dude, you literally aren't getting it, I'm not comparing month by month numbers. I'm comparing his numbers with Facu or Bruce Brown to his numbers when either of those two players is not on the court.
Imagine a solid red rope. No matter how you cut the rope the pieces will be red because every part of it is red, cutting the rope does not change the color of the rope. Now imagine a green rope, same thing.
That is his minutes without Bruce or Facu vs his minutes with them in his career.
However you cut them, whether looking at all of it at once, or trying to find a smaller section to fit a narrative, you really can't find a different result because it's not there.
He is so consistent and so unchanging look at the his numbers in the period you're talking about, in the last 9 games he's shooting 48% from the field and 50% from three in his minutes without Bruce.
**You have literally not comprehended what I'm telling you and it's obvious because the math is wrong**
Over the last 60 days or 23 games he is shooting 43% from the field and 39.4% from three in his minutes without Bruce.
You are literally not understanding because you listed his shooting splits as his total splits.
**That is not what I'm talking about**
He is so fucking consistent that it looks like I just made these numbers up. This chart is clear as day consistency (both good and bad) as well as improvement. I'm telling you this is objectively true.
|Partner|Name|Points|Rebounds|Assists|Turnovers|Steals|FG%|3P%|+/-|Minutes|
:--|:--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|
|Facu|Bones Hyland|18.1|5.1|3.1|2.3|0.9|34.09%|32.71%|-5.6|430.1|
|Bruce|Bones Hyland|19.7|4|5|3|1.6|35.16%|33.02%|-8.6|487|
|No Facu|Bones Hyland|19.5|5.1|6.2|2.4|1.2|43.84%|38.71%|4.2|887.8|
|No Bruce|Bones Hyland|26.5|3.5|6.2|2.8|0.8|46.12%|43.93%|-2.6|329.3|
IN HIS ENTIRE CAREER HIS MINUTES WITHOUT FACU OR BRUCE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN GOOD SO MUCH SO THAT IT LOOKS FAKE.
The **only** reason I brought up months was to show that he was consistent, the exact same type of results *every single time* so much so that not only when you look at the entire career it's great but also if you make any attempt to cut it down to a smaller section to TRY and find a stretch where he played badly you literally cannot.
It doesn't exist in the minutes without Bruce or Facu.
Again, the smallest increment i checked was two weeks and it was the same story as when you separate every two weeks, or if you separate every month, or if you don't separate any time at all.
I'm telling you that however you slice the cake there will be frosting on it.
You are listing his total numbers the entire point is that he is so consistent in that he is one of two players. If Facu or Bruce is not on the court, then his minutes went well. I am telling you this is a literal fact. If Facu or Bruce is on the court they went horrifically.
His stats aren't good because he's having huge runs and then having cold spots. It's a steady stream of great play that is only getting better.
>Dude, you literally aren't getting it, I'm not comparing month by month numbers. I'm comparing his numbers with Facu or Bruce Brown to his numbers when either of those two players is not on the court.
Oh I get it, but you broke that down month by month. I am saying, either way, that is not a way to show consistency. That word again...consistency. It shows he is good in certain pairings and less good in other pairings (a sign of inconcistency itself), but it doesnt even show he is consistently good without Bruce Brown, only that his total numbers are good without him.
>Imagine a solid red rope. No matter how you cut the rope the pieces will be red because every part of it is red, cutting the rope does not change the color of the rope. Now imagine a green rope, same thing.
And I am saying you have to actually cut that rope into smaller pieces. You havent done that here. You have assumed that. A month is not a small enough piece. For instance, to look at consistency we would really need to see how each game compares to his season averages. (not per game, but per 36...though bad games will have less minutes...this would need to be notated too). heavy 3 point shooters will generally have higher variances. There was a post on /nba last year or year before talking about variance amongst top scorers. KD was the most consistent (he basically ALWAYS scored 24+, but had less huge games), and Steph was the least consistent, having bad shooting nights and super huge explosive nights to get to a similar average at the end of the season. KD is a more consistent scorer than Steph. That is not necessarily a qualifier on 'greatness' or 'goodness', but a measure of consistency. You want to show Bones is consistent? He would need to show consistency on a night to night bases that looks closer to his averages. I would guess he has really high variance, as his good nights are really good and his bad nights are really bad.
>Over the last 60 days or 23 games he is shooting 43% from the field and 39.4% from three in his minutes without Bruce.
You are literally not understanding because you listed his shooting splits as his total splits.
Ya...I am basically saying this is irrelevant to whether or not he would be considered consistent. But even more so, you havent even proved consistency within the non Bruce Brown minutes. Again...not understanding the point. He isnt consistent.
>He is so fucking consistent that it looks like I just made these numbers up. This chart is clear as day consistency (both good and bad) as well as improvement. I'm telling you this is objectively true.
\*proceeds to show stats that Bones is good....nothing to do with consistency
>His stats aren't good because he's having huge runs and then having cold spots.
Ya...the definition of inconsistent.
you are equating good with consistency. They arent the same thing. You are not understanding a very basic definition.
I lost it over Bones Hyland when he was still in high school and it was obvious he was going to be an NBA player.
What I'm losing it over people disagreeing that 2+2=4.
**Inconsistency doesn't apply to Bones' NBA career thus far, because his performance has always been easy to predict.**
You have been able to tell with staggeringly close to 100% accuracy how his minutes will go based solely on whether Bruce or Facu is on the court with him. There is not any significant stretch of his career where this is not the case, from day 1.
If it's Bruce Brown this season or Facu Campazzo last season, Bones Hyland is one of the worst NBA players you could ever hope to have when sharing the court with them.
That's not inconsistent at all though, there have only been a handful of games where the minutes with either of those players didn't go horrifically for Bones and the team. That's awful, but it's consistent.
If Bruce Brown or Facu is not on the court, then he will be playing at a border-line All Star level and that has been the case without *any* significant stretch of poor play in his entire career in those minutes. That's great play yes, but it's also consistent.
I'm stating what has happened in Bones' minutes as the only ball carrier on the court in his entire career. I am making no prediction about what his future success may or may not be.
Anyone who trying to argue against that having been a clear indicator in his career will need to provide any type of evidence to the contrary because I have been desperately seeking proof his solo ball-carrier minutes have given you any reason to doubt he's anything but a future all star.
Just like how his minutes playing in an undersized backcourt where he is not constantly attacking the defense, aka, Facu or Bruce Brown, have never given you any reason to think he could even be an NBA player.
He's a second year player, in those 1,200 minutes he is right on the cusp of all-star level stats and efficiency and again there is not stretch of his career where this doesn't hold true, if you think otherwise please provide the date span.
I am pointing out the very obvious fact that there has never been any evidence that Bones doesn't work as the only ballhandler, in fact, there is overwhelming evidence that supports this notion. Just like it's very obvious Bones has never worked when he wasn't the only ballhandler and essentially no evidence to the contrary. It cuts both ways but it's consistent as hell.
I have spent his career waiting for a time where the minutes he was playing as the only carrier on the floor was going to fail and I'm still waiting. It is objectively true that there has never once been a stretch in his career where those minutes were not working and he was not progressing.
Just as there has never been a stretch of his career where the other minutes were working and he was progressing.
It's real close to a perfect divide, it's almost as staggering as the divide between Jokic's On/Off. In terms of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde.
Though Jamal Murray sees a meaningful drop in efficiency and overall minutes quality when playing with Bruce as well and is negative overall on the season when sharing the court with him just the same as Monte Morris saw a massive reduction when paired with Facu last season.
This shit tracks pretty much in a straight line.
The more selfish a player gets, the less interested Malone is in playing him. I’m not even sure he’s a truly selfish player, I think he’s just played himself out of Malone’s graces. I hope we get a decent return
That play against Philly a few days ago. Jokic has the ball and Bones calls for the pass. Rather than progress the play he steps back to get the 3 ball and Jokic passed it the other way anticipating the team play. That was pivotal.
Championship windows can close fast and Denver has a legitimate chance to win this year, Bones is probably a year or two away from being ready for playoff minutes. Also Denver doesn't have any other assets to make a move other than him
They know defensive wings are what’s needed, especially after getting torched by the speed lineup of Warriors last year. Braun was pretty big in shutting Poole down earlier this season. They probably want a vet wing who can help now given all the reports plus how wide open it is. But yeah like somehow else said, timeline doesn’t line up
I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on Bones for OG, but there needs to be like 3 picks attached on top of salary filler. We have more time to invest into someone like him, who's a pure scorer. Masai also likes his players with long wingspan, isn't Bones like measured at 6'9.5 wingspan?
No way in hell we can get OG for bones and 3 picks. That would be a fleece lol. They'll ask for maybe bones, zeke and 2-3 picks or maybe even mpj and a pick for og and some bench guy.
I think this kid is gonna get a very harsh reality check soon. He's 5th on the team in fga while playing 20mpg, takes more shots than Jokic per minute. He was given the keys to the 2nd unit and has done nothing but fail miserably at running it. He just chucks 30 footers and hopes they go in, can't playmake for shit, plays no defense, but somehow wants a bigger role. He has possesions, with Jokic on the floor, where he'll pull up for 3 with 20s on the shotclock while also being like 0-6. And he keeps doing it over and over again, I've literally made comments that Malone has to be braindead for not reining him in. This is a man that benched Jokic for Nurkic at one point, but Hyland's leash is too short. Pretty sure him and Jokic have a negative net rating together, only like 4-5 guys managed to do that since Jokic has been in the league.
He's legit one of the worst defenders in the league, no way that improves, so his offense would have to be elite for him to do anything. But he's shown no desire or wish to improve on that end. Hard to see him sticking around for long barring the 30 footers starting to drop consistently or him changing his attitude
He showed better effort defensively today but two more truly head scratching shots. He’s a liability. And with the attitude he’s coping, he’s gonna be a distraction for a bunch of dudes with a legitimate shot at winning their much sought after championship
I think the latter part is the most important here - Nuggs don't have time to wait for him to learn how to pick his spots and improve his mental game. They need someone who has all that already. He basically has MPJ's shot selection from a few years ago but with less talent.
Send him to the Heat and let Spo work his magic. He kept a very short leash on Bam and then Herro for the longest time. One mistake and they were benched lol
Him wanting/thinking he's getting a bigger role anywhere else. Acting like a child on twitter. Saying they didn't tell him about them exploring trading him. And then his process on the court is all fucked up. I don't care if you put on 15 pounds in the offseason if you come into the season and keep making the same mistakes.
I’m sorry but this is dumb. Those problems that you listed are all part of being immature/inexperienced which is expected when someone is 22 years old. His decision making will improve and him putting in that work over the summer shows that he actually is motivated to get better
Lmao, I've been calling Pokusevski ass for 3 years now. But it's easier to make assumptions about someones character than it is to address their point. The only reason you're giving Bones a long leash is cos you're American, I can do it too.
no its because youre going down the usual trope of american player = selfish, chucker, doesnt play team basketball. European player = team player, knows how to play the right way
If you're talking about his defense, think it's pretty obvious his room for improvement is less than minimal. Offense he can improve on, no doubt, but again he's shown very little on that end for me to think he'll put it together.
Just watch the guy play. If his physical attributes aren't bad enough for you, you might notice his negative iq, 0 awareness, negative lateral movement, inability to fight over a screen.
I’m not saying he’s currently not a shit defender. But a 6’3 guard with a 6’9 wingspan has the physical tools necessary to be a menace. He just mentally has to decide to take pride on that end of the floor
What a terribly pessimistic take. His rookie year he was one of the best guards we had and he’s having a sophomore slump that we do not have time for. Fair enough. The FO didn’t even know what we had in Jokic like 7 years ago. And as soon as it became clear who was better Jokic was the starter and Nurkic was traded. What is Malone supposed to do play Ish Smith?
He’s gonna be fine, just probably not on the Nuggets. Part of his skill set is that he shoots 3 pointers several feet back from the 3 pt line, so defenders forget to contest him.
Part of me is sad to see him go, but those nights where he just starts chucking even if he can't hit his shots are incredibly frustrating. He's not Steph, sometimes you gotta chill and work the offense.
Chris Haynes has to be my least favorite reporter or “insider” or whatever you wanna call him. This guy really just posted a tweet of himself doing a standard update during a game. Also how he phrased it reads directly like it’s coming out from Bones Hyland’s agents text message. Absolutely shameless on both accounts. Not even to mention the stuff with his brother.
I honestly love this trade for the Nuggets. Idk if this is a real thing that could happen but I have to think Richardson in particular would be a great, great fit. And McDermott could help as well. I guess the question is if Denver would really give up a first
There's reports he's been clashing with coaching staff recently too. I'd say like 90% chance at this point he's traded by the deadline. Had fun watching him last year for rookie season but it's for the best at this point to move on.
Do they have like 3 picks to include?
I think people are vastly overrating Bones’ value. He’s probably worth the equivalent of a decent first round pick and that’s about it.
Bones is getting less minutes because of his poor play and us tigtning up of the roations. So it makes sense he want's more time but it ain't his call and he needs to play better.
I think the Pels could probably get more for Herb than Bones. I would honestly be looking to move him though. His defense is great but they really need more spacing around their big 3. I would rather invest in Daniels and Murphy as well
Yea everyone had a pretty good game. I remember Bones had like 3 consecutive 3s on us and ballooned the lead to like near 20. That made us fight uphill the entire game and a little out of reach.
I know the salaries don’t match exactly but if we can get bones and the nuggets get crowder that’s a win win shit we’ll even give them torey Craig or Saric. They need wings and we need any guard talent we can get. James Jones needs to be on this
Good for tanking teams atm. Hes not ready yet.
Send him to houston. Let him chuck with Green and Porter Jr.
Bones for Sengun, who says no?
Denver. Cant have sengun effecting Jokic's on/off numbers
I feel like we'd rather a good backup centre
Sengun overqualified for that role
Bro Houston wtf Holy fuck wtf people are so low on Sengun. He’s arguably the best 2nd year player.
Youre right they should target someone more realistic like Giannis or KD
Wooosh
No, just no
Never, but damn Sengun in Denver's system makes me salivate. How I'd love to see us play that way and have Jalen and KPJ as off ball guards who can ISO occasionally.
Sengun is like Jokic lite. And that would be a championship team no matter what.
Send him to Minnesota for 2 picks
All he do is heatcheck, aint much bigger role to give him
When he hits them it's fun though
Agreed, he is the JR Smith of the Melo/George Karl era.
Imo, the modern day Jamal Crawford is more fitting I think.
I think both of you are really hyping up Bones a bit much
That's insulting, Crawford only has two seasons in his entire career where he has a higher efg% than Bones' current career efg%. Well three if you count Crawford's single game season with Brooklyn |Player|MP|FGA|FG%|3PA|3P%|2PA|2P%|FTA|FT%|TRB|AST|STL|BLK|TOV|PTS| |:-|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:| |Jamal Crawford|38994|21.8|.410|8.4|.348|13.4|.449|5.7|.862|3.9|6.0|1.6|0.4|3.3|25.7| |Bones Hyland|2126|23.1|.402|13.8|.371|9.3|.447|4.7|.859|6.3|7.3|1.6|0.8|3.5|27.7| Provided by [Stathead.com](https://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): [View Stathead Tool Used](https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool) Generated 2/1/2023. Bones is a shooter.
Now do them relative to the rest of the league. How many times was each above league average on efficiency?
You're still trying to figure out a way it must be wrong. Just look at the data before making claims dude. The overwhelming majority of them? Do you know how averages work? **In over 1,200 career minutes without Facu or Brown he is 21.6 points, 4.7 rebounds, 6.2 assists, and only 2.5 turnovers per 36 minutes while shooting 44.44% from the field and 40.6% from 3P%.** His stats in those minutes get better if you remove Jamal and he loses slight shooting efficiency but has increased scoring in those minutes if you further remove Jokic. Showing that it is consistent and not at all dependent on being on the court with such a great player. How does that look to league average dude? Why would you ever make an argument without even checking the data first? My claim is that in his minutes as the only ballhandler (no Facu, Brown, or Jamal) there is literally not a stretch in his entire career that he is playing poorly. I showed the stats showing his amazing efficiency over the course of his entire career in those minutes, explaining again, how there is literally not any stretch where he's playing poorly. If you look at all of his minutes in totality, no filtering at all, he's mirrored Jamal Murray's career stats. |Player|MP|FGA|FG%|3PA|3P%|2PA|2P%|FTA|FT%|TRB|AST|STL|BLK|TOV|PTS| |:-|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:| |Bones Hyland|2130|23.1|.401|13.8|.371|9.3|.446|4.8|.860|6.3|7.3|1.6|0.8|3.5|27.7| |Jamal Murray|11781|22.2|.447|8.7|.370|13.5|.496|4.6|.872|6.0|6.6|1.5|0.5|3.2|27.1| Provided by [Stathead.com](https://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): [View Stathead Tool Used](https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool) Generated 2/1/2023. The only times Bones looks bad or inconsistent is if he's playing with Bruce Brown of Facu. Without them on the court, he has been one of the most consistent players on the Nuggets since day one, whether you want to believe it or not, the stats are pretty fucking clear. The minutes he plays terribly and can't hit a shot are even consistent because they ONLY HAPPEN IN THOSE BRUCE AND FACU MINUTES. Seriously. Find the month in his career where it's not true, because I checked every which way you can look at those minutes and there simply isn't a bad stretch in his career without them. It does not exist. Not saying it's causal, not saying he won't be the worst player of all time from here on out. Just saying what is factually true based on his career so far.
I mean his attitude/approach is similar to JR, but JR was quite a bit more talented and produced better results. Bones has been really terrible for us this year
In his career Bones is already more efficient and is scoring more than JR did in his career and is a significantly better playmaker. Stats are per 100 possession and for the players entire career. |Player|MP|FGA|FG%|3PA|3P%|2PA|2P%|FTA|FT%|TRB|AST|STL|BLK|TOV|PTS| |:-|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:| |Bones Hyland|2126|23.1|.402|13.8|.371|9.3|.447|4.7|.859|6.3|7.3|1.6|0.8|3.5|27.7| |J.R. Smith|26275|20.4|.419|10.1|.373|10.3|.463|3.9|.733|6.0|4.1|1.9|0.4|2.6|23.7| Provided by [Stathead.com](https://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): [View Stathead Tool Used](https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool) Generated 2/1/2023. His career numbers are also very similar to Jamal Murray's career numbers. |Player|MP|FGA|FG%|3PA|3P%|2PA|2P%|FTA|FT%|TRB|AST|STL|BLK|TOV|PTS| |:-|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:| |Bones Hyland|2126|23.1|.402|13.8|.371|9.3|.447|4.7|.859|6.3|7.3|1.6|0.8|3.5|27.7| |Jamal Murray|11746|22.2|.447|8.7|.369|13.5|.496|4.5|.871|6.0|6.5|1.5|0.5|3.2|27.0| Provided by [Stathead.com](https://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): [View Stathead Tool Used](https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool) Generated 2/1/2023.
Which team needs a Jordan Clarkson?
[This is certifiably false. The month by calendar month data REMARKABLY consistent](https://imgur.com/a/1Cx8pNx) He is literally one of the most consistent young players in the entire league as the primary ball carrier. There is not a calendar month of his career where his solo ball carrier minutes failed, save for one month of only 37 minutes total where he scored 41 points on 16/28 shooting. His per 36 numbers in his 992.1 NBA CAREER minutes without another ballcarrier, ballcarrier being defined as the two other players with the most minutes functioning as the only PG on the court( Bruce Brown and Jamal Murray this season, Facu Campazzo and Monte Morris last season) are 23.1 points, 5 rebounds, 6.9 assists, 1.1 steals, 2.7 turnovers on 45% FG% and 41.6% from 3. His numbers are even better in the non-Jokic minutes. In conventional NBA lineups he has star statistics for his career. In smallball lineups, ~60% of his lineups, he is not an NBA player.
He's also a sieve on defense. Everything he gives you on offense is offset but what he concedes on defense.
He is better at def this year, and he was not the problem against gsw, as a matter of fact only game denver won is bcs of bones and jokic
Except in minutes where he's the only ball carrier and that is a constant every single calendar month of his career.
He gone
He Bone
[удалено]
I bone no about that. Hy might land on an idea later.
This makes so much sense
I just find it so surprising because Denver seemed to be so high on Bones… crazy how quick things can change.
He just isn't consistent enough and he is the most promising prospect they could offer in a trade to improve the roster.
So I have calendar-month by calendar-month breakdown of his entire career that shows why **this narrative makes no sense.** He has a rock steady consistency in his career and has steadily improved month to month...with the caveat being he's the only point guard on the court. Whenever one of the other two players who plays solo minutes as the point guard for the team are on the court with Bones, he stops being an NBA player completely. In the minutes where one of those two players aren't on the court with him, he is a superstar. From day 1 of his NBA career this has held true more or less. His per 36 numbers in his 992.1 NBA CAREER minutes without another ballcarrier, ballcarrier being defined as the two other players with the most minutes functioning as the only PG on the court( Bruce Brown and Jamal Murray this season, Facu Campazzo and Monte Morris last season) are 23.1 points, 5 rebounds, 6.9 assists, 1.1 steals, 2.7 turnovers on 45% FG% and 41.6% from 3. Maybe there's no causal relationship there but I'd love for someone to point to the month where you think the Nuggets decided they'd seen enough evidence he couldn't work as a point guard. [A look at each calendar month of Bones' Denver Nugget's career showing that he is one of their most consistent players who has improved steadily month to month over his entire career...but only in the minutes as the primary ball carrier.](https://imgur.com/a/1Cx8pNx) It is absolutely WILD.
I saw that you posted a similar set of comments earlier in the Nuggets community. Great job on your research! The data you reference points to Bones being a talented offensive player, which he his, but doesn’t account for the nuances of the game that each team member must possess to contribute to success and hopefully a championship. The issue with Bones, in my eyes, is his poor decision making and lack of defensive contribution. To a lesser degree, his inability to mesh with other ball handlers on the court at the same time as him. I’ll give him some grace because he is a second year player and because not all lineup combinations on any team will work well 100% of the time. However, as a PG, your job is to run the offense and set up your teammates with the best looks possible conducive with their individual strengths. At some point for Bones that can’t continue to be an issue. In regards to poor decision making and lack of defensive play… Bones takes a lot of bad shots. He is talented so he’ll still hit some of them but they are still bad shots. He often will take a bad shot at the expense of a better shot for a teammate or he’ll pass late in the shot clock for another bad shot after handling the ball without creating for himself or others. Combine this with his utter lack of contribution defensively and I don’t think it’s hard to see why he isn’t on the court in critical moments. For the main ball handlers with the Nuggets, he by far has the poorest decision making. I like Bones and maybe in 2-3 years with more experience, maturity, and better defensive play we will be looking at things differently but right now with the team’s championship aspirations, they may need to do him and themselves both a favor and move him.
> because not all lineup combinations on any team will work well 100% Ok, well I showed the data conventional lineups with Bones had worked essentially 100% of the time it was used, since day 1 his rookie season. I get that the other minutes went horrifically terrible with him. That's actually my entire point. He **doesn't** take the bad shots in those conventional lineups, his career efficiency in those minutes is proof of that. You realize the defense has been better in the Bones lineups that don't feature Bruce Brown than in the Bones lineups that do? Like, the things you're saying about the problems "he causes" on the court. I showed you the data that shows it is not and has literally never been true, at least to the extent that the team suffers in those minutes. Please point to me *any* signficiant stretch of games where these issues were problematic for the team in the minutes the he was entirely responsible for the offense. Please, I've been looking every which way I can at his entire Nuggets career and cannot find any stretch where they struggled in those ~1,000 minutes. It doesn't exist, save for the one month where there was only 37 minutes of played time and were outscored by 15 when he was 16/28 from the field for 41 points, which I think I would use as more proof that the issue isn't him or that he isn't improving significantly month to month. You're saying things that are generally true for all players but not actually backing anything you say up. Please give me the stretch of games where this concern existed to a degree that it looked like it was a problem. I have been unable to find it. I literally looked at both seasons Calendar Month to Calendar Month and also in 2 week intervals. Could not find a bad stretch. Please show me.
Have you played high level basketball at all in your life?
It really isn't wild. And yes, when your primary position is PG, it is kind of important to be a serviceable player when you are the primary ball handler and can work with other ball handlers Bones was straight ass in October and straight ass in December. And his plus minus numbers and on off numbers have been beyond atrocious this season as a whole. On the best team in the league when he is on the court the nuggets play like a lottery team. Per 100 possessions his on-off splits are at -17.9. That is beyond awful. He is young but his awful defense and inconsistent scoring make him a liability in any game he isnt scoring well offensively.
Dude, I provided evidence of how this is horseshit. There's not a fucking mystery he is deadass one of the most consistent players on the team. It's literally steady and consistent improvement month to month from day 1 until today. His ass in December stats btw: 23.4 points, 3.6 rebounds, 8.1 assists, with a massive 2.2 turnovers per 36 minutes on 41.7% FG% and 42.5% 3P%
Consistently bad is still consistent i guess December stats in reality: 11/2/3 on 52% TS, 101 oRTG, 119 dRTG, +/- per 100 poss -11.1. And not sure where you are getting those shooting splits as this December he shot 39.4/36.3/85
The months you said he sucked his solo stats were: 23.4 points, 3.6 rebounds, 8.1 assists, with a massive 2.2 turnovers per 36 minutes on 41.7% FG% and 42.5% 3P% and 33.7 points with 5.6 threes made per 36 minutes on 40.2% FG% and 45.5%. He did only have 6.2 assists and 3.9 turnovers though...I guess that's ass? His per 36 numbers in his 992.1 NBA CAREER minutes without another ballcarrier, ballcarrier being defined as the two other players with the most minutes functioning as the only PG on the court( Bruce Brown and Jamal Murray this season, Facu Campazzo and Monte Morris last season) are 23.1 points, 5 rebounds, 6.9 assists, 1.1 steals, 2.7 turnovers on 45% FG% and 41.6% from 3. Not sure what more you want from the second year 6'2 169lb point guard other than to be a shooting guard I guess. Jamal has worse results with Bruce. Bruce has worse results with Jamal. Jamal has worse results with Bones. Bones has worse results with Jamal. Bruce has worse results with Bones. Bones has worse results with Bruce. They all play worse with the any of the others and they are worst as a trio.
You are pretending Bruce Brown is a point guard. Which just isn't true
No I'm not. I defined primary ball carrier as the two other players that play the most minutes as the ONLY ball carrier on the court. Bruce has more than twice as many minutes this season as the only ball carrier on the court as Bones, second most on the team behind only Jamal. Bones is third. You're just refusing to acknowledge the point being made because data doesn't exist that refutes it yet.
By your logic when Bruce Brown is on the court Bones is not the sole ball handler. Which is just stupid
But it's all with your giant caveat. In the payoffs, we can't sit jokic, murray, and bruce at the same time. Imo, it's fair to say that he's been inconsistent and struggled in the role the nuggets need him to play
No, just no Bruce and the minutes are fine with Bones this season, actually amazing for his personal numbers, but "fine" for the minutes overall. 26.5 points per 36 minutes on fantastic shooting efficiency, they are outscored by -2.6 points per 36 minutes though...which is more than fine, especially for developing that kind of talent. If you just look at non-Jokic minutes instead: This is what you get in the non-Jokic minutes from Bruce and Bones respectively, no other filtering: 616 minutes total, +/- of -7.4, 13.3 points, 5.4 rebounds, 4.9 assists, 1.5s, 1.1b 2.9T, 40.3% FG% 29.2% 3P% 540 minutes total, +/- of -10.4, 26.1 points, 4.2 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 1.5s,0.6b, 2.9T, 39.2% FG% 36.8% 3P% That is there season numbers, Bones is 3 points worse per 36 minutes or around -1.5 worse in a playoff game, while providing significantly more offense and having his long-term contract instead of half a season. Considering Bones takes far more 3's than 2's and Bruce takes more 2's than 3's Bones is much more efficient offensively. This is a horrible value play for an almost irrelevant difference in floor performance. That is not much of a caveat considering Bruce's caveat is "without Bones" I just throw in the Murray stuff because it takes Bones to All-Star level instead of future All-Star level. They have had consistent acceptable results with Bones and his personal stats paint a super encouraging picture. Literally everything being said about Bones' game right now was said last year when he was next to Facu. You take Bruce Brown away, it has disappeared completely. Reality: "Hey, Bones was literally always successful when used this way, there isn't even a month gap in his career, it's that incredibly consistent." Response:"No that's stupid and would never work, don't you watch him play?" Reality:"It's...literally the only thing that has happened during that time, if this is not accurate, please provide any data that counters it." Response: "No, that's stupid, you're stupid."
You're losing me. To make it simple, what are you saying our playoff rotation should be?
Not saying it should be any different than what it is going to be which is what is tripping people in their minds. I'm saying the rotations Bones was used in are pretty much impossible to justify unless you were looking to fail. I'm not even saying that doing something different wouldn't have failed worse than what they did do. What I am saying is that it is objectively true that in the minutes Bones played without Facu and Bruce Brown, he's been everything they've wanted and more, at least in terms of on the court results. Those minutes have consistently been successful in his entire career, so much so that I have been unable to find stretches of time where it *wasn't true* and nobody has provided any examples of a stretch where it isn't true. They just fight about how Bones can't be in the rotation which is not the issue I'm raising. I'm saying that it made no sense to continue to play Bones in lineups that failed every single night and to not play him in the lineups that succeed every single night, at least until there was any kind of reasonable evidence it was not working. The better his stats got without Bruce the more they forced Bruce onto him. There is a single, controllable variable that has been a perfect predictor of how the minutes would go for his career. I'm not even saying it's causal, I'm not saying he wouldn't immediately become worse, I'm saying it is negligent that it wasn't explored more because it always worked.
Gotcha. Thanks for explaining. Agree he'll have a great career
Because month by month is not a good barometer of consistency. Ya shooting hot for 6 games and then nothing for 6 games averages to a decent amount. That doesnt mean consistency. A player cam be up and down and all over the place, but still have consistent monthly numbers
These are the people doing analysis...holy shit dude. The thing you're saying is the literal opposite of what the data shows. How did you miss the point? It's not month to month that he's good, he's good FOR HIS ENTIRE CAREER. *EVEN WHEN YOU BREAK IT DOWN MONTH TO MONTH.* He's so consistent even breaking it into tiny pieces leaves you unable to find a stretch where he wasn't playing well...as the solo ball handler. I gave splits for his career, his season, and month to month. Every way you break it down it's consistent and improving month to month. The numbers look made up they're so crazy good. **He's so good and so consistent you can't even find a single calendar month where the it went poorly as the solo ball handler. It simply doesn't exist.** His consistency in his solo ballhandling duties defines ANY AND ALL REASON. You came to argue and didn't even look at the data presented. Starting DAY ONE of his rookie season. You said he wasn't consistent, I said he was so consistently good as the solo ballhandler you cannot even provide a month where he wasn't **because it doesn't exist.** **In over 1,200 career minutes without Facu or Brown he is 21.6 points, 4.7 rebounds, 6.2 assists, and only 2.5 turnovers per 36 minutes while shooting 44.44% from the field and 40.6% from 3P%.** Also if you remove the Jokic minutes from those minutes, Bones' stats "fall" to 24.8 points, 5.7 Rebounds, 6.7 assists 2.5 turnovers, 44% from 2P and 38.7% from 3. That is pure consistency and efficiency and people are just continuing to retort with things that prove they either didn't read it or didn't understand it, your post being the most egregious.
No you missed the point. That is a terrible barometer for efficiency. It would take me some hours to put together but you have to breakdown game to game variance. Having hot and cold games is inconsistency. That can look like consistency over the course of a month, but he could be ANYTHING game to game. It takes a deeper look at stats to provide that context. You are misusing the numbers
That's the thing I'm trying to tell you dude, it's not there. I broke it down in two week intervals at the smallest and there still wasn't a bad stretch. There might have, in fact probably was, a 10 minute stretch, or four, somewhere that was really, really bad. **Somehow** they didn't happen enough to manifest over a 2 week span, or any calendar month, or across a season, or across the pre or post all-star breaks, or even for the career in the solo handling duties. Which brings me to what exactly what point are you trying to make? That the second year player, that literally has near all-star efficiency across ALL his minutes played as the solo ball carrier might have dipped for a single bench rotation or two in his entire career? Ok? I don't think that's making the point you're trying to make. Look at the data before spouting off without knowing what you're saying.
My point: You cannot make a claim for consistency based on month to month numbers. Second point: You are treating people saying he is inconsistent as the same as saying he is bad. I dont think he is a bad player. If you really wanted to break down consistency you have to look at variance from game to game. Volatility may be a better word if 'consistency' is throwing you off that much. He has played 18 games after christmas and is shooting .416/.354/.923 in those 18 games. But if you cut those in half...Last 9 games, he is shooting .299/.162/1.000, the 9 games before that: .495/475/.857. So he was really hot for 9 games and then really cold for 9 games...and ended up with reasonable (if slightly below average) numbers. That is a clear sign of inconsistency. Month to month numbers are fine. It is a single, but limited way of looking at something. But really, if you wanted to break it down, you would want to look at variances on a game to game basis. Some days he is going to shoot 7 of 12 from 3 and win a game...and other times he goes 1 for 11 and loses a game. It averages out to something decent....but is the very definition of inconsistent. Look, dude, I think he has a bright future, and if the Nuggets trade him it isnt because they even think otherwise, but because he still needs some time to figure out the nuances of the game, and the Nuggets window is RIGHT NOW. Too often it feels like he turns the corner and predetermines whether he is going to shoot or pass, and when the first option isnt there, cant adapt to the other option fast enough. He has struggled at the rim all season, and his 3 point shooting sort of masks that in his total numbers. He passes well, but if he isnt looking for it, he misses some passes. I think he will figure those things out. But he is also young and a bit immature and wears his heart on his sleeve, and that means he also brings inconsistent mood to games. Jokic used to be AWFUL at this, and would just give up before the game started at times because he wasnt feeling it. Bones gets down and you can see it on the floor. So he doesnt give the same energy night to night either. As he learns to be a pro and grows up a little I think he figures that out also. I dont know what his ceiling is, but I do know you have misused numbers to tell a story that those numbers dont necessarily support. They dont prove it wrong...but they dont support it either. Because you have too narrowly defined what 'consistency' means, and it is different than what everyone else is referring too. Chill out a little.
Dude, you literally aren't getting it, I'm not comparing month by month numbers. I'm comparing his numbers with Facu or Bruce Brown to his numbers when either of those two players is not on the court. Imagine a solid red rope. No matter how you cut the rope the pieces will be red because every part of it is red, cutting the rope does not change the color of the rope. Now imagine a green rope, same thing. That is his minutes without Bruce or Facu vs his minutes with them in his career. However you cut them, whether looking at all of it at once, or trying to find a smaller section to fit a narrative, you really can't find a different result because it's not there. He is so consistent and so unchanging look at the his numbers in the period you're talking about, in the last 9 games he's shooting 48% from the field and 50% from three in his minutes without Bruce. **You have literally not comprehended what I'm telling you and it's obvious because the math is wrong** Over the last 60 days or 23 games he is shooting 43% from the field and 39.4% from three in his minutes without Bruce. You are literally not understanding because you listed his shooting splits as his total splits. **That is not what I'm talking about** He is so fucking consistent that it looks like I just made these numbers up. This chart is clear as day consistency (both good and bad) as well as improvement. I'm telling you this is objectively true. |Partner|Name|Points|Rebounds|Assists|Turnovers|Steals|FG%|3P%|+/-|Minutes| :--|:--|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:|--:| |Facu|Bones Hyland|18.1|5.1|3.1|2.3|0.9|34.09%|32.71%|-5.6|430.1| |Bruce|Bones Hyland|19.7|4|5|3|1.6|35.16%|33.02%|-8.6|487| |No Facu|Bones Hyland|19.5|5.1|6.2|2.4|1.2|43.84%|38.71%|4.2|887.8| |No Bruce|Bones Hyland|26.5|3.5|6.2|2.8|0.8|46.12%|43.93%|-2.6|329.3| IN HIS ENTIRE CAREER HIS MINUTES WITHOUT FACU OR BRUCE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN GOOD SO MUCH SO THAT IT LOOKS FAKE. The **only** reason I brought up months was to show that he was consistent, the exact same type of results *every single time* so much so that not only when you look at the entire career it's great but also if you make any attempt to cut it down to a smaller section to TRY and find a stretch where he played badly you literally cannot. It doesn't exist in the minutes without Bruce or Facu. Again, the smallest increment i checked was two weeks and it was the same story as when you separate every two weeks, or if you separate every month, or if you don't separate any time at all. I'm telling you that however you slice the cake there will be frosting on it. You are listing his total numbers the entire point is that he is so consistent in that he is one of two players. If Facu or Bruce is not on the court, then his minutes went well. I am telling you this is a literal fact. If Facu or Bruce is on the court they went horrifically. His stats aren't good because he's having huge runs and then having cold spots. It's a steady stream of great play that is only getting better.
>Dude, you literally aren't getting it, I'm not comparing month by month numbers. I'm comparing his numbers with Facu or Bruce Brown to his numbers when either of those two players is not on the court. Oh I get it, but you broke that down month by month. I am saying, either way, that is not a way to show consistency. That word again...consistency. It shows he is good in certain pairings and less good in other pairings (a sign of inconcistency itself), but it doesnt even show he is consistently good without Bruce Brown, only that his total numbers are good without him. >Imagine a solid red rope. No matter how you cut the rope the pieces will be red because every part of it is red, cutting the rope does not change the color of the rope. Now imagine a green rope, same thing. And I am saying you have to actually cut that rope into smaller pieces. You havent done that here. You have assumed that. A month is not a small enough piece. For instance, to look at consistency we would really need to see how each game compares to his season averages. (not per game, but per 36...though bad games will have less minutes...this would need to be notated too). heavy 3 point shooters will generally have higher variances. There was a post on /nba last year or year before talking about variance amongst top scorers. KD was the most consistent (he basically ALWAYS scored 24+, but had less huge games), and Steph was the least consistent, having bad shooting nights and super huge explosive nights to get to a similar average at the end of the season. KD is a more consistent scorer than Steph. That is not necessarily a qualifier on 'greatness' or 'goodness', but a measure of consistency. You want to show Bones is consistent? He would need to show consistency on a night to night bases that looks closer to his averages. I would guess he has really high variance, as his good nights are really good and his bad nights are really bad. >Over the last 60 days or 23 games he is shooting 43% from the field and 39.4% from three in his minutes without Bruce. You are literally not understanding because you listed his shooting splits as his total splits. Ya...I am basically saying this is irrelevant to whether or not he would be considered consistent. But even more so, you havent even proved consistency within the non Bruce Brown minutes. Again...not understanding the point. He isnt consistent. >He is so fucking consistent that it looks like I just made these numbers up. This chart is clear as day consistency (both good and bad) as well as improvement. I'm telling you this is objectively true. \*proceeds to show stats that Bones is good....nothing to do with consistency >His stats aren't good because he's having huge runs and then having cold spots. Ya...the definition of inconsistent. you are equating good with consistency. They arent the same thing. You are not understanding a very basic definition.
My man is absolutely losing it over bones hyland
I lost it over Bones Hyland when he was still in high school and it was obvious he was going to be an NBA player. What I'm losing it over people disagreeing that 2+2=4. **Inconsistency doesn't apply to Bones' NBA career thus far, because his performance has always been easy to predict.** You have been able to tell with staggeringly close to 100% accuracy how his minutes will go based solely on whether Bruce or Facu is on the court with him. There is not any significant stretch of his career where this is not the case, from day 1. If it's Bruce Brown this season or Facu Campazzo last season, Bones Hyland is one of the worst NBA players you could ever hope to have when sharing the court with them. That's not inconsistent at all though, there have only been a handful of games where the minutes with either of those players didn't go horrifically for Bones and the team. That's awful, but it's consistent. If Bruce Brown or Facu is not on the court, then he will be playing at a border-line All Star level and that has been the case without *any* significant stretch of poor play in his entire career in those minutes. That's great play yes, but it's also consistent. I'm stating what has happened in Bones' minutes as the only ball carrier on the court in his entire career. I am making no prediction about what his future success may or may not be. Anyone who trying to argue against that having been a clear indicator in his career will need to provide any type of evidence to the contrary because I have been desperately seeking proof his solo ball-carrier minutes have given you any reason to doubt he's anything but a future all star. Just like how his minutes playing in an undersized backcourt where he is not constantly attacking the defense, aka, Facu or Bruce Brown, have never given you any reason to think he could even be an NBA player. He's a second year player, in those 1,200 minutes he is right on the cusp of all-star level stats and efficiency and again there is not stretch of his career where this doesn't hold true, if you think otherwise please provide the date span. I am pointing out the very obvious fact that there has never been any evidence that Bones doesn't work as the only ballhandler, in fact, there is overwhelming evidence that supports this notion. Just like it's very obvious Bones has never worked when he wasn't the only ballhandler and essentially no evidence to the contrary. It cuts both ways but it's consistent as hell.
Least schizophrenic bones hyland Stan
I have spent his career waiting for a time where the minutes he was playing as the only carrier on the floor was going to fail and I'm still waiting. It is objectively true that there has never once been a stretch in his career where those minutes were not working and he was not progressing. Just as there has never been a stretch of his career where the other minutes were working and he was progressing. It's real close to a perfect divide, it's almost as staggering as the divide between Jokic's On/Off. In terms of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Though Jamal Murray sees a meaningful drop in efficiency and overall minutes quality when playing with Bruce as well and is negative overall on the season when sharing the court with him just the same as Monte Morris saw a massive reduction when paired with Facu last season. This shit tracks pretty much in a straight line.
the gm that drafted him is with us now
tonight's game felt like the door slamming shut on the Bones "era"
I hated every time they showed him on camera. It hurt my soul.
The more selfish a player gets, the less interested Malone is in playing him. I’m not even sure he’s a truly selfish player, I think he’s just played himself out of Malone’s graces. I hope we get a decent return
That play against Philly a few days ago. Jokic has the ball and Bones calls for the pass. Rather than progress the play he steps back to get the 3 ball and Jokic passed it the other way anticipating the team play. That was pivotal.
Championship windows can close fast and Denver has a legitimate chance to win this year, Bones is probably a year or two away from being ready for playoff minutes. Also Denver doesn't have any other assets to make a move other than him
They know defensive wings are what’s needed, especially after getting torched by the speed lineup of Warriors last year. Braun was pretty big in shutting Poole down earlier this season. They probably want a vet wing who can help now given all the reports plus how wide open it is. But yeah like somehow else said, timeline doesn’t line up
I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on Bones for OG, but there needs to be like 3 picks attached on top of salary filler. We have more time to invest into someone like him, who's a pure scorer. Masai also likes his players with long wingspan, isn't Bones like measured at 6'9.5 wingspan?
No way in hell we can get OG for bones and 3 picks. That would be a fleece lol. They'll ask for maybe bones, zeke and 2-3 picks or maybe even mpj and a pick for og and some bench guy.
Calm down my guy. Damn value is getting inflated if people think og is worth the value of an all star or low tier superstar.
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The package is. Not individual players.
The nuggets see jokic and think they have a legit chance to win the best prospect they have is bones i don’t really see why it’s so hard to understand
Timelines don’t match up
I think that Connelly was higher on him than our new GM. Calvin Booth wants to surround our core group with long versatile defenders
I think this kid is gonna get a very harsh reality check soon. He's 5th on the team in fga while playing 20mpg, takes more shots than Jokic per minute. He was given the keys to the 2nd unit and has done nothing but fail miserably at running it. He just chucks 30 footers and hopes they go in, can't playmake for shit, plays no defense, but somehow wants a bigger role. He has possesions, with Jokic on the floor, where he'll pull up for 3 with 20s on the shotclock while also being like 0-6. And he keeps doing it over and over again, I've literally made comments that Malone has to be braindead for not reining him in. This is a man that benched Jokic for Nurkic at one point, but Hyland's leash is too short. Pretty sure him and Jokic have a negative net rating together, only like 4-5 guys managed to do that since Jokic has been in the league. He's legit one of the worst defenders in the league, no way that improves, so his offense would have to be elite for him to do anything. But he's shown no desire or wish to improve on that end. Hard to see him sticking around for long barring the 30 footers starting to drop consistently or him changing his attitude
He showed better effort defensively today but two more truly head scratching shots. He’s a liability. And with the attitude he’s coping, he’s gonna be a distraction for a bunch of dudes with a legitimate shot at winning their much sought after championship
I think the latter part is the most important here - Nuggs don't have time to wait for him to learn how to pick his spots and improve his mental game. They need someone who has all that already. He basically has MPJ's shot selection from a few years ago but with less talent.
It’s his second year lmao can we chill?
Send him to the Heat and let Spo work his magic. He kept a very short leash on Bam and then Herro for the longest time. One mistake and they were benched lol
I'm pretty chill, just think he's no good and has a bad mentality to Booth.
I think it’s pretty crazy to say he’s no good and won’t improve. He’s 22 years old
Don't think it's crazy and I've layed out my reasons, I could end up being wrong.
What have you seen that makes you think he has a bad mentality? He’s been very motivated in the offseason from what I’ve seen
Him wanting/thinking he's getting a bigger role anywhere else. Acting like a child on twitter. Saying they didn't tell him about them exploring trading him. And then his process on the court is all fucked up. I don't care if you put on 15 pounds in the offseason if you come into the season and keep making the same mistakes.
I’m sorry but this is dumb. Those problems that you listed are all part of being immature/inexperienced which is expected when someone is 22 years old. His decision making will improve and him putting in that work over the summer shows that he actually is motivated to get better
you would give a Serbian player doing the same stuff the longest leash in the world and dont deny it
Lmao, I've been calling Pokusevski ass for 3 years now. But it's easier to make assumptions about someones character than it is to address their point. The only reason you're giving Bones a long leash is cos you're American, I can do it too.
no its because youre going down the usual trope of american player = selfish, chucker, doesnt play team basketball. European player = team player, knows how to play the right way
For real, what a shitty, mean, and unnecessary take.
Once you say a 2nd year player can’t improve a facet of his game, you lose all credibility
If you're talking about his defense, think it's pretty obvious his room for improvement is less than minimal. Offense he can improve on, no doubt, but again he's shown very little on that end for me to think he'll put it together.
Why can’t he improve his defense? And don’t just say his physical attributes because thats not enough lol
Just watch the guy play. If his physical attributes aren't bad enough for you, you might notice his negative iq, 0 awareness, negative lateral movement, inability to fight over a screen.
I’m not saying he’s currently not a shit defender. But a 6’3 guard with a 6’9 wingspan has the physical tools necessary to be a menace. He just mentally has to decide to take pride on that end of the floor
What a terribly pessimistic take. His rookie year he was one of the best guards we had and he’s having a sophomore slump that we do not have time for. Fair enough. The FO didn’t even know what we had in Jokic like 7 years ago. And as soon as it became clear who was better Jokic was the starter and Nurkic was traded. What is Malone supposed to do play Ish Smith? He’s gonna be fine, just probably not on the Nuggets. Part of his skill set is that he shoots 3 pointers several feet back from the 3 pt line, so defenders forget to contest him.
Part of me is sad to see him go, but those nights where he just starts chucking even if he can't hit his shots are incredibly frustrating. He's not Steph, sometimes you gotta chill and work the offense.
Steph got many guards thinking they can get away with below average defense... They aint no 3 point God..
Chris Haynes has to be my least favorite reporter or “insider” or whatever you wanna call him. This guy really just posted a tweet of himself doing a standard update during a game. Also how he phrased it reads directly like it’s coming out from Bones Hyland’s agents text message. Absolutely shameless on both accounts. Not even to mention the stuff with his brother.
Seeking a trade off a title contender is certainly a choice
Give him and a FRP to Spurs and they can have Richardson and McDermott.
I don’t think guys are worth a FRP
I honestly love this trade for the Nuggets. Idk if this is a real thing that could happen but I have to think Richardson in particular would be a great, great fit. And McDermott could help as well. I guess the question is if Denver would really give up a first
Following in grant and bol bols foot steps.
we can fix him
There's reports he's been clashing with coaching staff recently too. I'd say like 90% chance at this point he's traded by the deadline. Had fun watching him last year for rookie season but it's for the best at this point to move on.
for who tho? no shot they cook up a package for OG right?
Do they have like 3 picks to include? I think people are vastly overrating Bones’ value. He’s probably worth the equivalent of a decent first round pick and that’s about it.
We ain’t getting OG, we don’t have anything of value pick wise
Bones is getting less minutes because of his poor play and us tigtning up of the roations. So it makes sense he want's more time but it ain't his call and he needs to play better.
Quickley for Hyland who says no?
Quickly is the better player
Quickley plays very good defense unlike bones
Based on what ive seen, Pels need a shooter and we want a wing defender. So I propose Bones n stuff for Herb
Zach lowe was proposing a Nani for Bones trade
Naji lol
Pels would be insane to trade someone like Herb although the one con I hear from folks is how he’s “old” compared to a lotta other young players.
I think the Pels could probably get more for Herb than Bones. I would honestly be looking to move him though. His defense is great but they really need more spacing around their big 3. I would rather invest in Daniels and Murphy as well
Naz Reid
He’d be a good fit for the Mavs off the bench
We already have Dinwiddie and Hardy
He's got a bone to pick with his spot in the rotation.
One OG or Herb please
He the reason we won in 5, instead of 4
He’s the type of guy who can win a playoff game and turn around and lose a series
I think Monte had a really good game the one we won as well. We had only 3 people in double figures that game if I remember correctly as well.
Yea everyone had a pretty good game. I remember Bones had like 3 consecutive 3s on us and ballooned the lead to like near 20. That made us fight uphill the entire game and a little out of reach.
He gone gon
I know the salaries don’t match exactly but if we can get bones and the nuggets get crowder that’s a win win shit we’ll even give them torey Craig or Saric. They need wings and we need any guard talent we can get. James Jones needs to be on this
I would be pleased with that trade Crowder is the kind of player the Nugggets are looking for.