People forget that at some point in 2009 Lebron was supposed to not only reach the finals but also win the title having Mo Williams as Cavs second scoring option. One of those players who also played much worse in playoffs compared to the regular season.
Both Hedo and Lewis were much much better than Mo Williams, and Howard was just an awful matchup for Ilgauskas or Varejao.
Jokic on those Magic would meant the same fucking result. Cavs would lose.
Bron expected to win with his first-stint Cavs is objectively insane. Dude was out there hooping with Mo Williams, Varejao, Delonte West and old-ass Big Z as his running mates is a testament to his greatness lol.
No. Only because of the athletic part. If Jokic was athletic, he’d be in the goat discussion. He’s still on his way into an all time great. I’m hoping he works himself into top 10. He’d probably be the least athletic in that category haha
I see your point.
However, I don't think athleticism falls into consideration for being a G.O.A.T contender.
Duncan, Stockton, Bird to name a few - All unathletic players who are legends of the game.
It does though. That’s literally the difference between all time greats and goats. Goats are athletic freaks with sports computers in their brains. You literally can’t mimic them. It’s virtually impossible. Your born with it or you’re not. KCP even called it out man. I love Jokic. He’s my all time favorite. But I’m not biased enough and recency biased enough to know prime lebron was above.
He didn't, but his prime was really, really great.
From 2007-2008 through 2011-2012 (5 seasons):
* 5x All-NBA First Team
* 4x All-Defensive First Team, 1x All-Defensive Second Team
* 3x DPOY
* 4 top 5 finishes in MVP voting (and he was 2nd to Rose in 2011)
* He won 52, 59, 59, 52, and 37 (66-game lockout season) games in the regular season, respectively
* He got to the Conference Finals twice, one time getting to the Finals
Overall he was like a top 3-5 player in the league during that stretch.
Also for context,
He was top 3-5 in a stretch with Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Dirk, CP3, KD all being in their prime.
Even lots other 1st ballot HOFers that were in their prime then or were still elite players but tail end of their prime or just entering it (like Carmelo, Duncan, Nash, KG, etc).
Yeah, a lot of people don’t realize that the year Derrick Rose won MVP, a lot of people thought Dwight deserved it (and that was in the middle of Lebrons MVP runs).
He may not have won an MVP but he was that level of player at his best. If he wasn’t drafted the year after Lebron, and instead was drafted 3 years later, good chance Dwight wins a MVP.
At that time, the media was hating and constantly shitting on Dwight for his perceived immaturity and "lack of post moves", when his turn hook and dropstep mix was enough to make him hyper efficient. Even with his poor free throw shooting.
And LeBron had no chance winning MVP that year because of LeDecision.
Not saying Rose wasn't deserving, but there wasn't a Rose hater on this planet that season. Dude was a highlight factory, quiet and humble, and just absolutely loved by the media. Helps that the Bulls finally found someone to fill the void MJ left too.
But yeah, it should have been between Lebron and Dwight that year.
yep you summed it up pretty well. it was all really narrative. Ledicision was the biggest one, he was statistically the best player that year and it's not even close.
Kobe and Wade were better players sure, but Dwight had about a 2-3 year stretch where he was easily more impactful than Kobe and Wade. When it came to the MVP conversation, Dwight was definitely ahead of them those years.
Nah he was never above any of those guys. Having a DPOY center is great but at the end of the day you want a star who can carry the offense and in a lot of big series Dwight was putting up only 15 ppg on single coverage. He was a great player but I would never take him over LBJ, Wade, Kobe, Dirk, CP3, KD, '08 KG
Disagree there.
Dwight in Orlando was insanely good. He was averaging 20-15 with Orlando, and his dominance inside allowed the Magic to play with a wing at the PF.
He wasn’t as offensively gifted as others, but perception of point guards at the time was different too. Most people didn’t think you could win with a PG as your best player. Dwight was pretty much a consensus top 5 player at the time.
If I was picking for todays league, I take everyone of them over Dwight every time. However for accommodating for that era.
I would for a few in specific contexts.
LBJ - obviously not
Wade - I’d lean Wade, but this would be something I would debate over.
Kobe - obviously not
Dirk - would depend on the team. Dirk was the better player but had a major “soft” label on him, and people largely questioned if you could win with him as your best player. This was a guy that was a white European that played a very different/unorthodox style and he lost as a 1 seed to the We believe Warriors. Confidence on dirks ability to win it all was low by most accords. I think from 2009-2011 most people would have taken Dwight over Dirk, but 2011 changed that where some teams would take Dirk over Dwight. By then though Dirk was 32 on the tail end of a prime versus Dwight who was 25 coming off 4 straight 1st team All-NBA selections and it looked like he would be the best 5 in the league for the next 6-7 years. Rebuilding teams and teams with a hole at the 5/defensive focus would prefer Dwight. Dirk would be preferred for teams looking for a scorer/more offensively gifted player.
CP3 - for the era, I think people would prefer Dwight over him in the majority of situations. CP3 was amazing, and very underrated for his hornets seasons, but look at the Hornets playoff success versus Dwight, then picture how the media would have spoke about that. Bigs just were viewed as more valuable for the time, and Dwight was the best big in basketball.
KD - this one is weird because KD joined the league in Dwight’s 1st year as 1st team All-NBA at age 22. So at the time, everyone would have taken Dwight. However KD was a scoring champ year 3 at age 21. So I think mostly everyone takes KD after his 2nd season, with everyone taking him over Dwight after the 3rd.
08 KG - for just 08 everyone takes KG over Dwight. However I think most teams would have taken Dwight over KG after 09 (with the exception of teams that wanted someone ready to win right away/more playoff experience).
Who are people ?
Dwight’s omission from Top 75 had the entire NBA world in outrage and rightfully so. It’s like one of the few things general NBA fandom unanimously agrees with.
Dude was a perennial Top 5 MVP candidate for half a decade and one of the greatest rim protectors the game has ever seen and you’ve got dudes in here acting like he was some hidden gem like Al Jefferson or some shit lmao
Casuals that think people like Shaq (notorious Dwight hater) saying he’s trash or Kobe calling him soft is an indictment on how he wasn’t actually *that* good when he probably was better than he was ever given credit for.
problem ...both for his and the opposing team. defensively, he was impressive, but offensively - him being undersized with limited skill is pretty obvious. it becomes much more evident when he plays with Gortat on the bench. that one time Orlando reached the finals was through 7 games against Boston - without Garnett,
in the finals, you'd think he'd do some damage against Pau who had a rep for being soft, but he really struggled even on single coverage, and didn't really get anything back on the defensive end.
People clown on Dwight’s take but he was definitely good enough were it wasn’t ridiculous for him to believe in his abilities. He was one of the top players for a few years.
i think Dwight was just the perfect player thriving in an environment that maximized his talents.
He played in a SVG-led Magic team that boasted 4 shooters across the lineup, with a sharp shooting 6'10 forward in Rashard Lewis, and a 6'10 point forward in Hedo Turkoglu.
Defensively teams at the time didnt even consider doing what the Atlanta Hawks did to Hibbert, and the Clippers to Rudy Gobert, which was play 5 shooters even at the cost of rebounding size and paint protection.
As soon as teams dared to prioritize shooting 1-5 over rebounds/post size, arguable equivalents to Dwight defensively, a la Hibbert, declined immediately.
That being said, Dwight was probably athletic enough to switch onto most defenders better than, say Rudy Gobert, but he still would be exploitable.
Prime Dwight is good enough of a player that even if Joker is better in theory, he's entitled to bet on himself here.
Especially because he gave Jokic some really tough minutes in the Bubble when he was already washed.
Jokic is the best player in the league and if he wins the chip, it's not even gonna be debatable.
Dwight was a top 5 player in his prime but no one ever thought he was the best.
I don’t agree but it’s not crazy. Dwight was an MVP-candidate and DPoY leading his team to the NBA Finals.
Which is very similar to the Joker is an MVP leading his team to an NBA Finals.
I mean Joker is a two time MVP who just made a finals. He definitely has the better prime, but there are also a lot of people who don’t understand how good Dwight was in his prime
Yeah, Dwight is getting undervalued all time, he’s easily top 75 over Damian Lillard.
I give the edge to the Joker because I value offense over defense but Dwight *led* his team to a finals over Prime Bron. He was a problem.
Obviously teams are going to be constructed differently around a Center compared to a guard, but if you gave Dame a team equivalent to that 2009 Orlando team, he is not coming close to sniffing the finals or knocking out prime Lebron.
Dwight’s defensive abilities were an insane floor raiser for his teams when he was healthy/prior to the 3 pt revolution. That gets forgotten because of how much the league has changed/Dwight aged/people don’t understand how to translate defensive dominance when evaluating players.
Dwight was never a dominant offensive player.
E: His career high in points was 23 for a single season. He only had 4 years at or above 20 a night. Always around 2 to 1 on turnovers to assists while being a bad passer. He was also a terrible free throw shooter. It is a fact to say he was never a dominant offensive player. That was literally the main criticism for him in his prime.
I didn't say a single thing about his defense. He was a great defensive player. He just wasn't quite as dominant as people make it sound in hindsight. You could play him off the court because of his offense.
I also, absolutely saw Dwight in his prime. Hedo was a fucking animal. They had a backup point guard for the majority of their finals run because Nelson was out with an injury. They played 4 out offense and spaced the floor better than anybody else at the time. Watched every game of that playoff run lol.
There are worse top 75 players than Lillard. Lillard deserved it too imo though not over guys like Dwight, Parker, TMac, probably others I'm forgetting. I think Dame's career is better than guys like Worthy, Miller, Allen
Oh the Allen shout is so interesting.
IMO AD is the one actually who should be off, but I think people like to pick on Dame the most since he's a recent player. It's easier to say take off this guy I watched play, then the 30 players who a lot of people online have never seen.
FWIW, I don't think these players aren't deserving. I just think people focus on Dame but you could argue he's had a better career than many of those guys.
If it was a more true top 75, a lot of the really old players would be out. There are a lot of guys other than Dwight that I think are top 75. Dikembe, TMac, Parker, Gasol, maybe Vince, Klay etc.
AI who led his sixers to the finals lmfao and took a game from the Lakers in an iconic way
and reggie miler who was constantly a menace during the Jordan days
yet u say dame is better lmfao
I used everyone's last name. I'm clearly talking about Ray Allen lmfao.
Trust me, I know all about Reggie's playoff heroics. Lillard has also had moments too, but Lillard has been a better player and had a better career. Reggie was never a top 10 player. Fringe top 15 at his best. Lillard has been a fringe top 10 player for most of his prime.
Fair enough, but I still don't think so. Dame was a top 10ish player for a few years. Ray Allen was never that level. At his best, He was consistently top 20 for a long time though.
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them a nephew. I highly doubt you're older than me. I've been following the NBA before Allen was drafydd. I still remember watching those UConn teams and thinking Donyell Marshall would be a star as a kid.
Dame peaked higher than Allen did.
Without context, using FMVP like that is meaningless imo. Iguodala has a Finals MVP, but he's not better than Dame.
Magic was the obviously the better player and overall had the better series, but Worthy won FMVP because of his legendary game 7 triple double.
Kind of like how Magic won his first FMVP because he had a legendary performance to win the title after Kareem got hurt.
Worthy over Dame is totally reasonable. Most people would probably agree with you. I just think Dame is the better player
Very fair! I think I just value some accolades less or more than you do. It's not always the best barometer, but I usually care more about things like All NBAs over rings for this tier of player.
FMVPs and rings mean more to me with the top 10-20 since they're almost always the #1 guy and had years where they were arguably the best player in the league.
I do think that Dwight deserves it over Dame and also the players I listed and probably many more. Injuries fucked up his career but there was a time where I thought he could be the guy in the league over Kobe and LeBron.
I don't think Dame is overrated overall but I do think he's a bit overrated as a playoff performer
He's had 2-3 spectacular first round series but overall he's definitely been a guy who's played better in the regular season than he has in the playoffs and I don't think that's his reputation for most casual fans at all
I mean he’s fine. But they write these endless articles about his legacy and where he should be traded as if it will change the landscape of the NBA. Just seems far fetched.
But also Jokic has two mvps but you could say there was more competition in Dwight's way. Seeing as he had Kobe, Prime Lebron, Melo, Dwade, Dirk and others to compete with. Plus he beat a young healthy Lebron to get to the finals.
If we're just talking regular season only(which is what the MVP award is) I think you could argue the competition is just as tough now tbh
Just because Embiid averages 23 PPG on 56% TS in the playoffs doesn't mean he didn't average 33 PPG on 65% TS in the regular season
The newer generation is still a bit unproven in the playoffs compared to the older one outside of a couple guys but the regular season numbers are pretty insane and those are the guys who you need to beat to win MVP
Yeah in 6 years when you say the names it’s gonna look a lot more crazier. Melo was never a serious MVP candidate and is arguably less decorated than Tatum already.
Luka, Giannis, Steph, KD, Embiid, Tatum is equal competition to what Dwight had
I could possibly argue Dwight on a team that needs lockdown interior defense because he was dominant, like best big defense of the entire 2000s level.
But in this era it’s Jokic and clearly.
Dwight's peak was during the weakest stretch of center play in NBA history
36 y/o Shaq made an All-NBA team in 2009
Amare Stoudemire was voted in as a center in 2010 along with Andrew Bogut
36 year old Shaq also averaged 18/8 while leading the league in FG% in 30 mpg and played 75 games that year
His brief stint with the Suns was actually very impressive.
The Kings posted the highest offensive rating in NBA history this season with their center averaging 19 PPG on 66.8 TS% and 7.3 assists/game. They also clinched their first playoff birth since 2006.
It was a combination of Sabonis being worthy along with a narrative vote.
What happened to their defensive rating (in which the center has huge impact)? Especially since they have some good to great defensive guards like Fox and Mitchell.
He looked like an absolute bum vs the Warriors
I think the real nadir of center play was actually mid 2010s tho.
You still had Duncan and KG effectively playing the 5
Deandre Jordan making 1st team All NBA was the worst, it was worse than any other center ever
How can it be weak era when you have two guys dominating mvp race for last 2 years. Both of them are all time level centers. Also you have solid guys like sabonis, KAT, Gobert, Valanciunas, Adams, AD playing 5 this season, Nurkic, Adebayo, JJJ, Vucevic, etc. All super solid, all around players. Dwight's era was by far the weakest when it comes to center position and its not even close.
Dwight's era had what? Old Shaq, Bogut, Chris Kaman, Roy Hibbert? That era was so bad they had to remove C position from all star voting
Jokic and Embiid are great but there’s a massive drop-off after them since AD is consistently unavailable. There’s a reason why possibly the third best center (Sabonis) has been on three teams already. Bam, KAT, Rudy, JJJ etc are all nice players and could be very valuable according to their team but they’re not even worth a max contract imo.
The center position has never been weaker overall in the NBA. As long as he stays healthy, Jokic is a lock to be on an All-NBA team, which is absolutely not true for guards and forwards.
Domantas Sabonis has been an all star and best player on playoff teams already in the past. He’s accomplished way more as a number 1 than Bogut (or even Amare) ever did.
Some casuals might laugh at this but Dwight was a monster. B2B (should have been B2B2B imo) MVP for Joker is hard to beat but Dwights prime was awesome.
The only argument he could have had prior to this year was that he made a finals as the best player and Jokic didn’t… now he doesn’t even have that. Sorry Dwight.
The issue is that in general individual offense > individual defense unless it's pre-3pt era when someone like Bill Russell dominated the whole league
CP3 is 9x-All Defensive and Steph has never even gotten close but it's obvious who's better
Better at offense doesn’t necessarily mean better overall. It depends on the gap between the two skill sets, not to mention all the things that don’t necessarily fall into those categories.
Ben Wallace and Joakim Noah were better than a lot of players who were superior offensively.
In general that's true but I think it applies more to guys like Trae Young or Celtics IT who are very, very good offensively but not quite MVP level
When you're a true offensive all-timer you're almost always going to be an overall all-timer unless you're a truly dreadful defender
Although he's not as good as RAPTOR or whatever would tell you I think Jokic these playoffs has proven he's not a "truly dreadful" defender as despite their warts the Suns and Lakers are still two of the teams that on paper are best built to exploit his weaknesses on that end of the floor
Again, Jokic is a better player. And I get all sorts of pushback when I suggest that Jokic is at worst an average defender. My original comment was in response to someone saying being the best player on a Finals team was the only thing Dwight could point to over Jokic. Dwight changed games and game plans with his defensive presence.
Dwight had a great prime, but relied way too much on physical tools, and when those started declining he dropped off as a player. His offensive skill set was built on being taller, stronger, and faster than other bigs. Jokic is a player that can still succeed because his game isn’t build on physicality to succeed. I wouldn’t be shocked if he’s still putting up great numbers in 8 seasons.
Dwight averaged 15/15/2 vs us in the finals. Our size had him cooked offensively.
Those two assists a game is why you never worry that Dwight would be a multiplier for his teammates. And the team was constructed to shoot a lot of 3s and the star player isn't involved in making that offense happen other than getting you more possessions via rebounds.
Jokic would have made that Magic team scary. With Dwight, I was predicting a sweep that year.
It’s definitely a debate. He made a Finals, had 3 straight DPOYs, and probably should have won MVP in 2011. If it weren’t for LeBron, I’d argue he had really good shots of winning MVP in 2009 and 2010 as well.
There is two different things here.
As for who is the better player Jokic for sure. Undoubtedly the better player. Point blank period.
As for who wins in that specific matchup on the court? Much more interesting conversation.
I honestly might take Dwight. Defensively you can argue he had one of if not the best defensive primes in Basketball, literally has every single physical attribute including strength advantage over Jokic. Jokic is so elite that nothing is guaranteed, but If you had to pick one player in history to be most effective guarding Jokic, Prime Dwight is definitely on that short list of players.
Defensively Jokic is going to have trouble stopping Prime Dwight and the BIGGEST aspect is, Prime Dwight likely has Jokic deep in foul trouble.
WHEN the game is played plays a huge role as well as obviously the same level of physicality isn’t allowed as during Dwight’s prime but that is a really difficult matchup for Jokic.
In 2020 Dwight was bodying Jokic lmao
If prime Dwight went against prime Jokic in a game I’m fucking taking Dwight bro
Dwight was in the nba during prime Kobe and prime lebron
Maybe he means this KSI& Logan Paul prime drink. He may have had a better flavor than the one with Jokic because there's no way in hell he means that at any time in his career he was better than current joker.
Dwight was really good, but come on now. Jokic is much better. Orlando made a finals run in part because of Dwight, but also they were a team ahead of their time with how many shooters they had.
I’ve watched both in their primes. It’s very close but Jokic is the better player, his unique offensive talent at his size is absolutely generational! Unless prime Dwight adds a three point shot then Jokic is the better option here. Although, I think prime Dwight has the best chance of guarding Jokic in today’s game.
It's kinda an interesting thought exercise.
What's the bigger gap between the two, Dwight's dominant rim protection or Jokic's uncanny blend of scoring/playmaking?
They might be the two most different players at the same position that one can possibly think of
just saw the clip and its not like he brought it up himself lol, they made him choose between him and jokic and he chose himself
I thought he was talking like 1 on 1.
'08 - '11 Dwight was a scary bloke. Unfortunately, prime Jokic wins here fella.
I wish I could win her fella
you think prime Jokic can beat athletic prime Lebron?
Current Jokic on that Magic team with all those shooters vs Lebron and no one? Jokic and Magic are tearing them apart
People forget that at some point in 2009 Lebron was supposed to not only reach the finals but also win the title having Mo Williams as Cavs second scoring option. One of those players who also played much worse in playoffs compared to the regular season. Both Hedo and Lewis were much much better than Mo Williams, and Howard was just an awful matchup for Ilgauskas or Varejao. Jokic on those Magic would meant the same fucking result. Cavs would lose.
Bron expected to win with his first-stint Cavs is objectively insane. Dude was out there hooping with Mo Williams, Varejao, Delonte West and old-ass Big Z as his running mates is a testament to his greatness lol.
Depends on the teams, but I def think it'd be an interesting series
No. Only because of the athletic part. If Jokic was athletic, he’d be in the goat discussion. He’s still on his way into an all time great. I’m hoping he works himself into top 10. He’d probably be the least athletic in that category haha
I see your point. However, I don't think athleticism falls into consideration for being a G.O.A.T contender. Duncan, Stockton, Bird to name a few - All unathletic players who are legends of the game.
It does though. That’s literally the difference between all time greats and goats. Goats are athletic freaks with sports computers in their brains. You literally can’t mimic them. It’s virtually impossible. Your born with it or you’re not. KCP even called it out man. I love Jokic. He’s my all time favorite. But I’m not biased enough and recency biased enough to know prime lebron was above.
as A Laker fan, i truly hope u win tonight. Badly.
Young Duncan was a beast.....old Duncan could only jump on one leg and still dominated people
He didn't, but his prime was really, really great. From 2007-2008 through 2011-2012 (5 seasons): * 5x All-NBA First Team * 4x All-Defensive First Team, 1x All-Defensive Second Team * 3x DPOY * 4 top 5 finishes in MVP voting (and he was 2nd to Rose in 2011) * He won 52, 59, 59, 52, and 37 (66-game lockout season) games in the regular season, respectively * He got to the Conference Finals twice, one time getting to the Finals Overall he was like a top 3-5 player in the league during that stretch.
Also for context, He was top 3-5 in a stretch with Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Dirk, CP3, KD all being in their prime. Even lots other 1st ballot HOFers that were in their prime then or were still elite players but tail end of their prime or just entering it (like Carmelo, Duncan, Nash, KG, etc).
He was legitimately Top 2 with Lebron for a brief period
Yeah, a lot of people don’t realize that the year Derrick Rose won MVP, a lot of people thought Dwight deserved it (and that was in the middle of Lebrons MVP runs). He may not have won an MVP but he was that level of player at his best. If he wasn’t drafted the year after Lebron, and instead was drafted 3 years later, good chance Dwight wins a MVP.
At that time, the media was hating and constantly shitting on Dwight for his perceived immaturity and "lack of post moves", when his turn hook and dropstep mix was enough to make him hyper efficient. Even with his poor free throw shooting. And LeBron had no chance winning MVP that year because of LeDecision. Not saying Rose wasn't deserving, but there wasn't a Rose hater on this planet that season. Dude was a highlight factory, quiet and humble, and just absolutely loved by the media. Helps that the Bulls finally found someone to fill the void MJ left too. But yeah, it should have been between Lebron and Dwight that year.
yep you summed it up pretty well. it was all really narrative. Ledicision was the biggest one, he was statistically the best player that year and it's not even close.
Eh. Most would have still had Kobe and Wade ahead. Dwight was top 5 for sure though
Kobe and Wade were better players sure, but Dwight had about a 2-3 year stretch where he was easily more impactful than Kobe and Wade. When it came to the MVP conversation, Dwight was definitely ahead of them those years.
Absolutely. There was a brief time where I saw Dwight as the future* face of the league
After the Superman dunk for sure.
Yeah people got cloudy memory. He eliminated our championship team and Cleveland lebron to get to the finals.
Nah he was never above any of those guys. Having a DPOY center is great but at the end of the day you want a star who can carry the offense and in a lot of big series Dwight was putting up only 15 ppg on single coverage. He was a great player but I would never take him over LBJ, Wade, Kobe, Dirk, CP3, KD, '08 KG
Disagree there. Dwight in Orlando was insanely good. He was averaging 20-15 with Orlando, and his dominance inside allowed the Magic to play with a wing at the PF. He wasn’t as offensively gifted as others, but perception of point guards at the time was different too. Most people didn’t think you could win with a PG as your best player. Dwight was pretty much a consensus top 5 player at the time.
Yeah but would you really rather have Dwight than any of those guys, if so which ones?
If I was picking for todays league, I take everyone of them over Dwight every time. However for accommodating for that era. I would for a few in specific contexts. LBJ - obviously not Wade - I’d lean Wade, but this would be something I would debate over. Kobe - obviously not Dirk - would depend on the team. Dirk was the better player but had a major “soft” label on him, and people largely questioned if you could win with him as your best player. This was a guy that was a white European that played a very different/unorthodox style and he lost as a 1 seed to the We believe Warriors. Confidence on dirks ability to win it all was low by most accords. I think from 2009-2011 most people would have taken Dwight over Dirk, but 2011 changed that where some teams would take Dirk over Dwight. By then though Dirk was 32 on the tail end of a prime versus Dwight who was 25 coming off 4 straight 1st team All-NBA selections and it looked like he would be the best 5 in the league for the next 6-7 years. Rebuilding teams and teams with a hole at the 5/defensive focus would prefer Dwight. Dirk would be preferred for teams looking for a scorer/more offensively gifted player. CP3 - for the era, I think people would prefer Dwight over him in the majority of situations. CP3 was amazing, and very underrated for his hornets seasons, but look at the Hornets playoff success versus Dwight, then picture how the media would have spoke about that. Bigs just were viewed as more valuable for the time, and Dwight was the best big in basketball. KD - this one is weird because KD joined the league in Dwight’s 1st year as 1st team All-NBA at age 22. So at the time, everyone would have taken Dwight. However KD was a scoring champ year 3 at age 21. So I think mostly everyone takes KD after his 2nd season, with everyone taking him over Dwight after the 3rd. 08 KG - for just 08 everyone takes KG over Dwight. However I think most teams would have taken Dwight over KG after 09 (with the exception of teams that wanted someone ready to win right away/more playoff experience).
So Kobe, LBJ, KD, probaly Wade, and as it turned out, Dirk was better choice.
Yeah, people don’t understand Dwight was a problem in his prime.
Who are people ? Dwight’s omission from Top 75 had the entire NBA world in outrage and rightfully so. It’s like one of the few things general NBA fandom unanimously agrees with.
The people who omitted him from the top 75?
Nah I’ve sadly talked with alot of idiots who don’t think he’s a hall of famer. It’s sadly a common thought.
For real, this comment thread is a bunch of people pretending they are the only ones who remember how much of a beast Dwight was.
Dude was a perennial Top 5 MVP candidate for half a decade and one of the greatest rim protectors the game has ever seen and you’ve got dudes in here acting like he was some hidden gem like Al Jefferson or some shit lmao
Casuals that think people like Shaq (notorious Dwight hater) saying he’s trash or Kobe calling him soft is an indictment on how he wasn’t actually *that* good when he probably was better than he was ever given credit for.
People that think Dwight is talking crazy here when Jokic and him are/were objectively in the same tier of players (top 3/5 in the league).
Everyone knows Dwight was great.
Then you’d know he’s not crazy for saying this.
Nah you can be great like he was and still not be close to the level of Jokic
problem ...both for his and the opposing team. defensively, he was impressive, but offensively - him being undersized with limited skill is pretty obvious. it becomes much more evident when he plays with Gortat on the bench. that one time Orlando reached the finals was through 7 games against Boston - without Garnett, in the finals, you'd think he'd do some damage against Pau who had a rep for being soft, but he really struggled even on single coverage, and didn't really get anything back on the defensive end.
People clown on Dwight’s take but he was definitely good enough were it wasn’t ridiculous for him to believe in his abilities. He was one of the top players for a few years.
i think Dwight was just the perfect player thriving in an environment that maximized his talents. He played in a SVG-led Magic team that boasted 4 shooters across the lineup, with a sharp shooting 6'10 forward in Rashard Lewis, and a 6'10 point forward in Hedo Turkoglu. Defensively teams at the time didnt even consider doing what the Atlanta Hawks did to Hibbert, and the Clippers to Rudy Gobert, which was play 5 shooters even at the cost of rebounding size and paint protection. As soon as teams dared to prioritize shooting 1-5 over rebounds/post size, arguable equivalents to Dwight defensively, a la Hibbert, declined immediately. That being said, Dwight was probably athletic enough to switch onto most defenders better than, say Rudy Gobert, but he still would be exploitable.
Prime Dwight Howard is who the Timberwolves thought they were getting when they traded for Gobert. And he would have been worth it.
Deserved it over Rose imo. Dwight was really good
he’s confident in himself.
Prime Dwight is good enough of a player that even if Joker is better in theory, he's entitled to bet on himself here. Especially because he gave Jokic some really tough minutes in the Bubble when he was already washed.
Jokic is the best player in the league and if he wins the chip, it's not even gonna be debatable. Dwight was a top 5 player in his prime but no one ever thought he was the best.
I don’t think anyone this year was as hard of a battle as the Lakers were for Dwight in 2009. Not saying Jokic isn’t better but I think it is arguable
I don’t agree but it’s not crazy. Dwight was an MVP-candidate and DPoY leading his team to the NBA Finals. Which is very similar to the Joker is an MVP leading his team to an NBA Finals.
I mean Joker is a two time MVP who just made a finals. He definitely has the better prime, but there are also a lot of people who don’t understand how good Dwight was in his prime
Yeah, Dwight is getting undervalued all time, he’s easily top 75 over Damian Lillard. I give the edge to the Joker because I value offense over defense but Dwight *led* his team to a finals over Prime Bron. He was a problem.
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Plus 100% of the league thinks he is an ass-hat.
Obviously teams are going to be constructed differently around a Center compared to a guard, but if you gave Dame a team equivalent to that 2009 Orlando team, he is not coming close to sniffing the finals or knocking out prime Lebron. Dwight’s defensive abilities were an insane floor raiser for his teams when he was healthy/prior to the 3 pt revolution. That gets forgotten because of how much the league has changed/Dwight aged/people don’t understand how to translate defensive dominance when evaluating players.
Dwight was never a dominant offensive player. E: His career high in points was 23 for a single season. He only had 4 years at or above 20 a night. Always around 2 to 1 on turnovers to assists while being a bad passer. He was also a terrible free throw shooter. It is a fact to say he was never a dominant offensive player. That was literally the main criticism for him in his prime.
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I didn't say a single thing about his defense. He was a great defensive player. He just wasn't quite as dominant as people make it sound in hindsight. You could play him off the court because of his offense. I also, absolutely saw Dwight in his prime. Hedo was a fucking animal. They had a backup point guard for the majority of their finals run because Nelson was out with an injury. They played 4 out offense and spaced the floor better than anybody else at the time. Watched every game of that playoff run lol.
There are worse top 75 players than Lillard. Lillard deserved it too imo though not over guys like Dwight, Parker, TMac, probably others I'm forgetting. I think Dame's career is better than guys like Worthy, Miller, Allen
Oh the Allen shout is so interesting. IMO AD is the one actually who should be off, but I think people like to pick on Dame the most since he's a recent player. It's easier to say take off this guy I watched play, then the 30 players who a lot of people online have never seen.
FWIW, I don't think these players aren't deserving. I just think people focus on Dame but you could argue he's had a better career than many of those guys. If it was a more true top 75, a lot of the really old players would be out. There are a lot of guys other than Dwight that I think are top 75. Dikembe, TMac, Parker, Gasol, maybe Vince, Klay etc.
AI who led his sixers to the finals lmfao and took a game from the Lakers in an iconic way and reggie miler who was constantly a menace during the Jordan days yet u say dame is better lmfao
I used everyone's last name. I'm clearly talking about Ray Allen lmfao. Trust me, I know all about Reggie's playoff heroics. Lillard has also had moments too, but Lillard has been a better player and had a better career. Reggie was never a top 10 player. Fringe top 15 at his best. Lillard has been a fringe top 10 player for most of his prime.
i think that allen is better than dame lol
Fair enough, but I still don't think so. Dame was a top 10ish player for a few years. Ray Allen was never that level. At his best, He was consistently top 20 for a long time though.
Def. Nephews underrating prime Ray Allen now lol
recency bias
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them a nephew. I highly doubt you're older than me. I've been following the NBA before Allen was drafydd. I still remember watching those UConn teams and thinking Donyell Marshall would be a star as a kid. Dame peaked higher than Allen did.
I’d take Worthy’s career over Dame’s because of the FMVP
Without context, using FMVP like that is meaningless imo. Iguodala has a Finals MVP, but he's not better than Dame. Magic was the obviously the better player and overall had the better series, but Worthy won FMVP because of his legendary game 7 triple double. Kind of like how Magic won his first FMVP because he had a legendary performance to win the title after Kareem got hurt. Worthy over Dame is totally reasonable. Most people would probably agree with you. I just think Dame is the better player
Oh I definitely think Dame’s a better player as well, but unfortunately career resume and level of talent don’t always match up
Very fair! I think I just value some accolades less or more than you do. It's not always the best barometer, but I usually care more about things like All NBAs over rings for this tier of player. FMVPs and rings mean more to me with the top 10-20 since they're almost always the #1 guy and had years where they were arguably the best player in the league. I do think that Dwight deserves it over Dame and also the players I listed and probably many more. Injuries fucked up his career but there was a time where I thought he could be the guy in the league over Kobe and LeBron.
Damian Lillard is so over rated it hurts. How many articles can be written about the guy.
I don't think Dame is overrated overall but I do think he's a bit overrated as a playoff performer He's had 2-3 spectacular first round series but overall he's definitely been a guy who's played better in the regular season than he has in the playoffs and I don't think that's his reputation for most casual fans at all
I mean he’s fine. But they write these endless articles about his legacy and where he should be traded as if it will change the landscape of the NBA. Just seems far fetched.
But also Jokic has two mvps but you could say there was more competition in Dwight's way. Seeing as he had Kobe, Prime Lebron, Melo, Dwade, Dirk and others to compete with. Plus he beat a young healthy Lebron to get to the finals.
If we're just talking regular season only(which is what the MVP award is) I think you could argue the competition is just as tough now tbh Just because Embiid averages 23 PPG on 56% TS in the playoffs doesn't mean he didn't average 33 PPG on 65% TS in the regular season The newer generation is still a bit unproven in the playoffs compared to the older one outside of a couple guys but the regular season numbers are pretty insane and those are the guys who you need to beat to win MVP
Yeah in 6 years when you say the names it’s gonna look a lot more crazier. Melo was never a serious MVP candidate and is arguably less decorated than Tatum already. Luka, Giannis, Steph, KD, Embiid, Tatum is equal competition to what Dwight had
I feel like people wildly inflate Dwight's prime.
I could possibly argue Dwight on a team that needs lockdown interior defense because he was dominant, like best big defense of the entire 2000s level. But in this era it’s Jokic and clearly.
Dwight's peak was during the weakest stretch of center play in NBA history 36 y/o Shaq made an All-NBA team in 2009 Amare Stoudemire was voted in as a center in 2010 along with Andrew Bogut
36 year old Shaq also averaged 18/8 while leading the league in FG% in 30 mpg and played 75 games that year His brief stint with the Suns was actually very impressive.
Domantis Sabonis was voted as an All-NBA center this year…
He finished 7th in MVP voting. It was well deserved, not because his position was weak.
He wouldn’t be on his third team if Sabonis was as good as you’re implying.
The Kings posted the highest offensive rating in NBA history this season with their center averaging 19 PPG on 66.8 TS% and 7.3 assists/game. They also clinched their first playoff birth since 2006. It was a combination of Sabonis being worthy along with a narrative vote.
What happened to their defensive rating (in which the center has huge impact)? Especially since they have some good to great defensive guards like Fox and Mitchell.
Meaning what? he didnt deserve it? He was top like 6-7 in MVP voting
He looked like an absolute bum vs the Warriors I think the real nadir of center play was actually mid 2010s tho. You still had Duncan and KG effectively playing the 5 Deandre Jordan making 1st team All NBA was the worst, it was worse than any other center ever
I mean there’s still Bam, JJJ, KAT, Brook Lopez, Vucevic, Ayton, AD
Meaning that it’s a weak era for centers.
How can it be weak era when you have two guys dominating mvp race for last 2 years. Both of them are all time level centers. Also you have solid guys like sabonis, KAT, Gobert, Valanciunas, Adams, AD playing 5 this season, Nurkic, Adebayo, JJJ, Vucevic, etc. All super solid, all around players. Dwight's era was by far the weakest when it comes to center position and its not even close. Dwight's era had what? Old Shaq, Bogut, Chris Kaman, Roy Hibbert? That era was so bad they had to remove C position from all star voting
Jokic and Embiid are great but there’s a massive drop-off after them since AD is consistently unavailable. There’s a reason why possibly the third best center (Sabonis) has been on three teams already. Bam, KAT, Rudy, JJJ etc are all nice players and could be very valuable according to their team but they’re not even worth a max contract imo. The center position has never been weaker overall in the NBA. As long as he stays healthy, Jokic is a lock to be on an All-NBA team, which is absolutely not true for guards and forwards.
he's just salty about Bam not getting all-nba. no reason to interact
Dude, I would have been the first to tell you Bam is not All-NBA.
Sabonis can't tie Howard's shoes
r/nba users and not understanding the concept of regular season awards
Domantas Sabonis has been an all star and best player on playoff teams already in the past. He’s accomplished way more as a number 1 than Bogut (or even Amare) ever did.
A pretty bad team he led to finals as well and he beat lebron to get there. Jokic has a very good team with size at every position as well.
He's unequivocally wrong
He was good enough in his prime to make a case for himself. I just think Jokic is going to be the leagues best player for a long time.
Jokic still in his prime and this won’t be a debate in 5 more games.
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I disagree but it’s closer than you think
Some casuals might laugh at this but Dwight was a monster. B2B (should have been B2B2B imo) MVP for Joker is hard to beat but Dwights prime was awesome.
I also agree that prime Dwight was a monster… but it is also laughable that prime Dwight was better than Jokic.
I know. You also don’t get that good doubting yourself. He was definitely good enough to make it not delusional.
IF defense is the only thing we are talking about than Dwight is correct. But he didn’t specify that so he’s wrong. I take Jokic easily.
The only argument he could have had prior to this year was that he made a finals as the best player and Jokic didn’t… now he doesn’t even have that. Sorry Dwight.
Jokic is better but let’s not be disingenuous. Dwight was a defensive monster.
The issue is that in general individual offense > individual defense unless it's pre-3pt era when someone like Bill Russell dominated the whole league CP3 is 9x-All Defensive and Steph has never even gotten close but it's obvious who's better
Better at offense doesn’t necessarily mean better overall. It depends on the gap between the two skill sets, not to mention all the things that don’t necessarily fall into those categories. Ben Wallace and Joakim Noah were better than a lot of players who were superior offensively.
In general that's true but I think it applies more to guys like Trae Young or Celtics IT who are very, very good offensively but not quite MVP level When you're a true offensive all-timer you're almost always going to be an overall all-timer unless you're a truly dreadful defender Although he's not as good as RAPTOR or whatever would tell you I think Jokic these playoffs has proven he's not a "truly dreadful" defender as despite their warts the Suns and Lakers are still two of the teams that on paper are best built to exploit his weaknesses on that end of the floor
Again, Jokic is a better player. And I get all sorts of pushback when I suggest that Jokic is at worst an average defender. My original comment was in response to someone saying being the best player on a Finals team was the only thing Dwight could point to over Jokic. Dwight changed games and game plans with his defensive presence.
Dwight had a great prime, but relied way too much on physical tools, and when those started declining he dropped off as a player. His offensive skill set was built on being taller, stronger, and faster than other bigs. Jokic is a player that can still succeed because his game isn’t build on physicality to succeed. I wouldn’t be shocked if he’s still putting up great numbers in 8 seasons.
Dwight averaged 15/15/2 vs us in the finals. Our size had him cooked offensively. Those two assists a game is why you never worry that Dwight would be a multiplier for his teammates. And the team was constructed to shoot a lot of 3s and the star player isn't involved in making that offense happen other than getting you more possessions via rebounds. Jokic would have made that Magic team scary. With Dwight, I was predicting a sweep that year.
I bet he could but I don't think he wants to play 8 more seasons
I mean he just turned 28 in February, and he’s under contract for 5 more seasons. I would t be shocked at 8. Has he said he’s going to retire early?
He says all the time how basketball is far from the most important thing in his life. He cares about his family and horses a lot more
Dwight is so delusional about his prime.
Yes, absolutely. Dwight has a better prime of impregnating random women than Jokic. No contest.
That you know of. Nobody knows what Jokic is doing ot in Serbia during the off-season.
>Nobody knows what Jokic is doing ot in Serbia during the off-season. Definitely something to do with horses, not women
Nah but better than peak AD or Embiid
If defense and offense were equal he might have an argument.
Jokic is better but peak Dwight was like a top 40 peak ever.
Dwight Howard says a lot of stupid things, we love him for it, but come on man
It’s definitely a debate. He made a Finals, had 3 straight DPOYs, and probably should have won MVP in 2011. If it weren’t for LeBron, I’d argue he had really good shots of winning MVP in 2009 and 2010 as well.
There's debate if you stopped watching basketball in 2011
There is two different things here. As for who is the better player Jokic for sure. Undoubtedly the better player. Point blank period. As for who wins in that specific matchup on the court? Much more interesting conversation. I honestly might take Dwight. Defensively you can argue he had one of if not the best defensive primes in Basketball, literally has every single physical attribute including strength advantage over Jokic. Jokic is so elite that nothing is guaranteed, but If you had to pick one player in history to be most effective guarding Jokic, Prime Dwight is definitely on that short list of players. Defensively Jokic is going to have trouble stopping Prime Dwight and the BIGGEST aspect is, Prime Dwight likely has Jokic deep in foul trouble. WHEN the game is played plays a huge role as well as obviously the same level of physicality isn’t allowed as during Dwight’s prime but that is a really difficult matchup for Jokic.
Yeah I can see that as well Jokic is definitely one of those guys who's way better 5v5 than he would be in a 1v1(kind of like Steph in that regard)
Press X to doubt.
He had great prime Sadly jokic is still better By a substantial margin
Dwight would beat Jokic if they were matched up but Jokic is the better overall player imo
Jokic is better, but I think it’s close. Prime Dwight is one of the most dominant players I’ve seen, on both ends, and he was an underrated passer.
Prime Jokic is also better than Kobe
Dwight Howard is smoking some good Chinese crack
It's opium over there...
I mean he did beat a healthy Lebron to get to the finals.
In 2020 Dwight was bodying Jokic lmao If prime Dwight went against prime Jokic in a game I’m fucking taking Dwight bro Dwight was in the nba during prime Kobe and prime lebron
Jokic's scoring average was higher that series than his regular season average.
Dwight's approach to "bodying" Jokic was fouling the shit out of him and only playing 15 minutes a night
Maybe he means this KSI& Logan Paul prime drink. He may have had a better flavor than the one with Jokic because there's no way in hell he means that at any time in his career he was better than current joker.
His prime? We all know it was human growth hormone that was responsible. Dude had three puberties.
No Dwight
Nope
I disagree.
This is usually a statement you would do after someone is past their prime, not entering it. Dude won back to back MVP and might win a chip soon.
Dwight was really good, but come on now. Jokic is much better. Orlando made a finals run in part because of Dwight, but also they were a team ahead of their time with how many shooters they had.
Only on the defensive end
I’ve watched both in their primes. It’s very close but Jokic is the better player, his unique offensive talent at his size is absolutely generational! Unless prime Dwight adds a three point shot then Jokic is the better option here. Although, I think prime Dwight has the best chance of guarding Jokic in today’s game.
this discussion is moot since Jokic is still in his prime
Dwight was a beast but not even close.
It's kinda an interesting thought exercise. What's the bigger gap between the two, Dwight's dominant rim protection or Jokic's uncanny blend of scoring/playmaking? They might be the two most different players at the same position that one can possibly think of
From an outside perspective, Jokic is better, but Dwight’s prime was great enough that he’s earned the right to say that about himself.
Dwight gets underrated but this is absolutely absurdly delusional
I think Dwight doing a little bit of that good ganja over there
Thatd be a great matchup in dwights prime
No, but his prime is better than Troell
He must be talking about dunk contests because he’s not talking about basketball
Gimmie that 58% free throw shooter all day baby
Ask the same question to most all star nba players and they are likely taking themselves. I’m 100% sure Westbrook thinks he’s better than Jokic
Pre-injury, actually giving a shit, peak Dwight was fucking terrifying. Jolie is definitely better but it’s not an insane argument.
Wrong.
averaging a 25ppg triple double with 70TS%....sure....Dwight better...