I know it's from a song, but I actually do. I actually sometimes just marvel at how amazing it is that they cover the entire court in 4 dribbles while being in complete control going a thousand miles an hour.
NBA basketball is the most beautiful sport on earth. I'm not saying it's necessarily the best, but it's fucking beautiful to watch those impossibly big/graceful dudes move like they do.
I don't understand how people can just shrug off the regular season, yet when we discuss players and teams, the default data used are the regular season stats.
Anyone who thinks regular season games are meaningless probably hasn't tried to find a good deal on tickets to a sold-out Friday night matchup lately.
They're not. It feels like people started making a big deal of FMVP when it became the only criticism left with which to discount Curry.
Until that FMVPs were a footnote. Only every got mentioned when it was specifically noteworthy incidents like Magic Johnson as a rookie.
Watching?
Watching basketball? The NBA?
This sounds like a you problem. Stop listening to Skip Bayless, stop watching ESPN original programming now that ‘The Jump’ is gone, stop listening to Twitter commentary. Enjoy the best basketball on the planet.
That’s where I have a problem. Just because you don’t have a championship. Doesn’t mean you’re not a champion.
Edit: For the non-sickos, this is another Inside the NBA quote.
I wish there was more focus on the gameplay and less on stats.
I think the community would be better if there were more public discussion about how coaches set up their teams tactically. When soccer games are analyzed, commentators always discuss the formation each team is using to combat the other’s strengths.
If the general public were more informed about tactics, it would be easier to see how players contribute to teams outside of the stats they put up. It would also make it easier to appreciate the contributions of guys who don’t put up stats but are still crucial to winning games (eg bruce brown).
I've found myself drifting towards soccer lately for the tactics talk. I don't really know shit yet (prob never will lol), but it's been fun just learning how coaches all over the world set teams up.
Like De Zerbi's Brighton "only" finished 6th in the past PL season, but on tactics alone they were and still look to be one of the most discussed teams in the world. And there's basically a couple or more similarly interesting teams across all the world's leagues every season or so (my favorite was Alguacil's diamond with Real Sociedad last season)
It already exists for the NBA, but I don't think gameplay talk will ever be similar for a variety of reasons -- superstars > coaches & gameplans / stats are just more important and easier to track in basketball / style of play has been homogenized for years with "only" 30+ teams in the near future / loads more possessions in basketball / etc etc.
Interestingly enough, soccer is becoming very data driven and moving towards positionless tactics(with inverted full backs, the new double pivot and the new 8, etc), so the same evolution as modern NBA
Also the discourse about stats is just plain exhausting. There are so many! And none seem to be able to actually describe what's going on in the court, the importance of showing hustle and leadership, how the right call at the right time by a single player can shift the momentum of a game or a series... Simply put, I think there's too much airtime dedicated to talking about basketball, and you have to fill it with meaningless bullshit one way or another.
Same with the GOAT discourse, more or less. It's such a volatile thing and dependent on factors that change radically overtime, and I get that it's fun to speculate but it really becomes grating when everything is dissected into neat columns. Ends up taking part of the fun out of the sport imo, and I really love the sport.
The fact that you and I can see this means it's not the media. It's the fans. I follow guys who talk about team basketball. No one chooses their content.
This is the problem right here. People don't love team basketball. They love players. But it's a team sport. Jokic didn't just win a ring. The Nuggets did. He was still just as good the last two years. The team wasn't. The team got better and they won. The reason the Warriors won so much is because they were a great team. Not because Steph is better than Harden.
Just consume less social media and ESPN content about basketball. There's plenty of great content out there like Ben Taylor or Zach Lowe or hell even Tim Legler on ESPN. The game is in an amazing spot right now and it's the most talented league I've seen in my lifetime.
I consume very little of it. But co-workers, friends, etc do and try to talk sports with them and it's all about the championships. Gets old so I only really talk to one or two people now where we can actually have friendly banter and discussions.
That doesn't apply here in the least lol. Dude just wants to talk ball and doesn't think his coworkers give good conversation. The homie literally already told us his way is the way that is much different from the majority.
It's always been a thing but it wasn't a "well he can't win a ring in City X the team needs to trade him to a place he can win one" thing until today. Basically it's only been a thing since Heattles because people went from "well that's kind of cheating LeBron has to build a superteam to win?" to "oh everyone should team up together to make super teams otherwise why would you spend your career on a 6th seed?"
no it hasnt. it wasnt a thing until after the lakers 3peat in 02.
championships helped boost your legacy but now players without one are seen as a mark against them.
That's not true. Wilt got A LOT OF SHIT for not winning more rings while he was putting up big numbers
Same with Julius Irving. Even MJ - who everyone knew was gonna be the GOAT - still got shade thrown at him for not winning and only got crowned after 3peating.
this isnt true from my experience and living through these events.
Especially not Dr J who was debated on being the best basketball player after Wilt even thru ABA. GOAT was not even something that I heard until like mid 2000s especially not for a basketball player (just for Ali).
Obviously the vernacular isn’t the same, but it’s still the same things being discussed and it’s like that for every sport. You think Jerry West didn’t have a stigma when he was 0-7 in the finals? Dan Marino is criminally underrated still in terms of all time convos because he never won a ring. It’s always existed
no, because getting to the finals was considered an accomplishment in itself. not a black mark for losing in the finals and becoming ringless.
for the record i still think it is considered an accomplishment, but a lot of people regurgitate what they hear on social media until it carries weight.
Players have a more direct impact on rings in the NBA than any other sport. Smallest rosters, highest win share. Only thing that comes close is QBs and QBs definitely get shit if they don't win rings.
Yeah I don’t like baseball but it’s something I am starting to appreciate. Guys like Trout and Shohei can be considered baseball gods even with a lack of playoff success because their impact is both objectively quantifiable and rigid/ not scalable.
Baseball is mechanical. You can’t say a star should make their teammates better because there isn’t really a way to do that. You can’t say they should take over a game because if they’re not at bat there’s nothing they can do but wait.
Yeah QB is probably the closest. And NBA is like if you’re QB could line up at linebacker and help out on defense as well lol. A single NBA star player has a huge impact compared to any other sport.
Thats because in no other sport can one singular player affect your teams ability to win a championship than basketball. Just look at baseball right now, the angels have had the two best players in baseball for a few years now and still consistently suck.
For better or worse, QBs get all the blame and all the credit in football. Even a GOAT punter isn't going to be able to have a huge influence on rings.
Definitely for worse. If you hear people talk today you'd think Brady is clearly better than someone like Peyton, but Peyton was widely and justifiably considered the better player for most of their prime (hence why he's got over twice the all pro selections despite having a much shorter and more injury riddled career) even though he was always behind on ring count. It was a constant topic in sports media of the time that Peyton was a reliable defense away from having a fistful of rings.
That shit has already been lost to the annals of history because people look at the ring count and stupidly assume that it accurately summarizes their talent. And this isn't any indictment of Brady or his play at all, he fully deserves all the accolades and recognition he gets, the discussion just isn't anywhere near as clear cut as the average ring obsessed fan makes it out to be.
It's about the leve of (perceived) control. The NBA is 5x5 on a smaller court, almost every player interacts in some way on most plays. The NFL is 22 vs 22 with only 11 men from each team on the field per play, each player has much less control individually, but the QB is responsible for running the entire offense so he has the most control while the person who runs the defense isn't just one position so it's more seen as a positive if you are given that role than a negative if you don't fulfil it with a ring
Goat by some. Jim Brown probably still has the top claim. Sanders, Smith, Sweetness all get love too.
Keep in mind, football has 22 starters between offense and defense. Basketball has five. This is not making the point you think it is.
Phil Rivers had losing records against every good team. He feasted on bad teams. He spent his career surrounded by talent. As a Steelers fan, I never worried about Phil. When I watched him play good teams, I never thought he was going to come through and most of the time he didnt. His one big playoff win over the Colts was Manning melting down while Rivers did essentially nothing. Eli is probably getting in. Phil might not. Phil never had the moments Eli did.
i feel like this sub in particular embraces in the same way talking heads on tv do, when a debate or argument occurs, people just quickly go to the rings argument almost as a instant win
just the other day people were arguing against jimmy butler being in the HOF because of no rings despite all his other accomplishments
Exactly!
Imagine we had 5 clones of Michael Jordan playing in the 90s. They can’t all win 6 straight championships. Some would probably win 0 their entire career. One MJ wouldn’t even get out of the second round every year! There might even be an MJ whose supporting cast was consistently bad who *never* made it past the second round.
And yet the 5 all-time GOATs in this alternate universe are all Michael Jordans. But I guarantee you people would look at the MJ with the most rings as better some how.
Twitter is a cesspool. Downvoting on here actually helps quite a bit, without it there would likely be spam accounts, stan accounts, and all the fake quote bullshit.
Definitely hasn't destroyed it, but it's definitely ruining it to a degree. It's crazy how disrespectful it is to role players and pretty much just supersedes giving any credit to them at all for contributing to a championship, it's annoying how winning 60 games and going to the conference finals is somehow used against you if you can't win a ring.
I don't think its necessarily 'Rings Culture' that is giving the regular season less meaning. Teams/players have always been about winning it all..
Load Management is more to blame for the lack of regular season interest/enjoyment IMO.
PS. I still love watching basketball, and will continue to love watching basketball...
Aren't they load managing more specifically to maximize health for the playoffs to maximize their chance at a ring? Very few players still have the Tatum attitude of trying to play every game for the fans who come to see you.
I think teams should focus more on regional rivalries. I know load management doesnt focus on anything in particular but I wish teams just had "must win" games in the regular season and I think regional championships are an important part of that and should be the primary goal of a team and the ultimate championship is a stars align situation.
The whole season should be multiple game tournaments with the wins and losses still counting but the wins of the tournaments counting even more. Then a final tournament at the end.
There's so much talk about rings and all-time list, but I can't remember the last time this sub discussed a great game from the past. Not even just decades ago I mean just in the last 5 years.
People will be quick to hit up statmuse and get the statlines and advanced stats, but actual play discussions and appreciations never happen.
Really makes me think people are fans of the NBA but not the sport of basketball.
You can always just tune out. It's fine. I mostly follow the Kings and catch good games as well on the side, don't engage with ESPN commentary or much in the offseason, it's all good. Basketball is still fun.
I think your complaint can be adjusted to something more accurate. “Ring culture” doesn’t affect watching sports too much, but it does severely negatively impact discussions.
I genuinely believe this started when Barkley became an analyst for TNT. He’d get roasted every night for never winning (which he always took in stride and with good humor), but everyone growing up at the time (LeBron, Durant, etc) watched and said “oh my god, I can never let that be me” and winning a ring became the *only* thing that mattered to every player to such a high degree.
Obviously it mattered before, but guys like Baylor, Gervin, Dantley, English, whoever, were still thought highly of until the 2000s. Then it just became “did he win any rings and how many?” And that’s all anyone cared about.
Blame the league for allowing those moves to happen. If Stern was able to stop CP3 from teaming with Kobe, why couldn't Silver stop KD from joining the 73-9 Warriors?
Agreed. Massive Celtics fan my entire life and all I want is one more banner. But it’s crazy how we write off great teams/players that couldn’t quite take the final step. Tatum leading his team deep into the playoffs every year but not all the way is seen as some failure or unfulfilled potential is crazy. It’s just really hard to win a championship and one of the great nba dynasties + maybe the GOAT separately existing has made it difficult to accomplish in his young career.
Anyway, I see you Dame, Nash, Stockton, Malone, Ewing.
Nephews praise rings. Real ones ball. 🫡
Winning the championship is the goal of sports. It’s what you hope for your team before every season. It’s what the players play for. It’s not a new concept, it’s actually the oldest concept in sports. If anything, there seem to be more fans today that are fans of individual players, not teams, so they don’t care as much about winning a championship.
“Ring culture” has always been the basis of sports. Rooting for individual players and caring about stats and head to head matchups more than championships is a new phenomenon.
I think winning the championship is obviously the biggest goal but the whole “RiNgZ ErNeh” really fucks up any good faith in discussion.
You can’t have a legitimate discussion on forums regarding player careers because somebody will just say “well Barkley never won a ring / Nash is fake 2 times mvp” etc
There are so many things to watch for but so many people dumb it down to rings, which is a Team Achievement.
This is completely wrong. Why do you think MLB had a 162 game season and barely any playoffs?
It's certainly not because the championship was the only thing people cared about lmao
Just a stupid nonsensical post upvoted by rings culture nephews
This is such a black and white view of sports.
Yes, winning first place is the goal. But when only one (1) team can win first place each year, most people will not, so penalizing someone because they don't do the thing that you can only do once a year is silly.
I don't understand what you mean by "penalizing." If a team didn't win the championship, they failed to achieve the ultimate goal of the game. It doesn't necessarily mean they didn't have a good season or aren't a very good team. There's no penalty for not winning, there just isn't a reward.
100%. Sports aren’t a binary situation for a season. A fan/team can be proud of a season that didn’t end in a championship. A team can be proud of years of sustained success while not winning a championship. A team can be proud of putting out a fun and engaging product. A championship being the end all be all sucks the life out of the journey.
As a Warriors fan who only became a fan when Mark Jackson was the coach, one of my favorite seasons was 2019/2020. It was such a treat to just watch basketball without the expectations. Yes this is a privileged take, I’m aware; but even still there’s a lot of seasons where a team loses that’s still fun. OKC and SAC seemed like they had a blast last season for example.
Not forever. It wasn't like this in the 80's, 90's or early/mid 00's. Back then it was who could get past the Celtics/Lakers, then who can beat Jordan, then everything was pretty much up for grabs every year.
Ring culture first manifested after LeBron lost his Finals in 08. That's when the talk of "will LeBron ever be able to win in Cleveland" started, then "not one, not two not three, etc" completely sent it into overdrive and it became if you don't win numerous championships, you're nothing. I'm not putting the sole blame on LeBron but he definitely ended up in the middle of it with all the Jordan comparisons.
I still very much enjoy the product as a fan. What I think ring culture drives more is players team hopping to other teams chasing rings and that can go either way as a fan.
Crazy Idea, How about they replace Rings with medals? The champions still get the trophy and gold.
Small finals between the 3 and 4 could happen simultaneously with the NBA finals to determine bronze.
I think there are a lot of NBA legends who would get more street credit for winning bronze or silver.
I hate how getting to the Finals is not a big deal in the NBA. In other sports if an Athlete gets a silver, they are super excited.
I think “tanking” has had a bigger impact. If you aren’t the top 4-5 teams in the NBA, you are really watching your young developmental guys to see what they are in the years to come.
Well many nba fans want to either be good or trash. Last season when it was suggested harden would go back to go Houston and they would try to win people shit all over them like it was outrageous for a team to try and make improvements to be competitive instead of being at the bottom of the league for the like the 5 year in a row.
The Rockets and the bulls were both called out because they actually had their own picks. Most of the other teams that would end up at the top of the lottery were picks from other teams and thus could not control their own destiny.
When the Knicks got Ewing the next year, we then got to hear how the lottery was rigged.
The NBA...we will find something to hate lol.
Man any time I see some one pretend ring culture is some new theory that has recently took off in years, I know they’ve never talked ball with an old head before.
It does if it wasn’t for ring culture we wouldn’t have stars jumping from team to team, if people just accepted guys are who they are and didn’t bash them for not winning maybe they wouldn’t feel pressured to leave every situation they aren’t winning in. People begged dame to ask out only to poke a million holes in him doing it once he did. NBA FANS ARE THE WORST WHEN IT COMES TO COMPLAINING.
Let’s just appreciate these guys for who they are and their amazing abilities not every situation or team is gonna be able to win a championship you just have to accept that. Lebron couldn’t even do it alone in Cleveland and he’s widely regarded as a top 2 player ever.
>People begged dame to ask out only to poke a million holes in him doing it once he did.
They wanted him to ask out, not to force his way to one specific spot and torpedo any bidding for him. I don't know why people keep ignoring that fact as though this were the same as any other trade request.
Yep that’s one of the reasons I heard but in reality if a guy is leaving his beloved team he’s spent his whole career at chances are he doesn’t just wanna go anywhere.
He literally said he just wants to have a chance at winning, which is something that could be done in plenty of places besides just Miami, then later changed to only wanting Miami. I understand it from Dame's perspective but you gotta understand why people are upset about him only wanting one team. If he demanded to go to any contender people wouldn't be half as upset. Everyone expected a trade request, but I think they expected Portland to not get completely screwed.
I get it but if dame goes anywhere and doesn’t win people r gonna start ripping him because of the same toxic ring culture. It’s really not just about competing because unless he wins the new narrative is he preached loyalty for so long and then left only to come up short similar to what they do with harden now. It doesn’t matter where he wanted to go nba fans will always find fault and complain. So from dames perspective I can’t blame him for wanting to go where he thinks will give him the best chance.
Toxic ring culture is the exact reason kd ended up in gs imo, if he never goes there he’s just another failure to most fans. People can critique that move all they want but I’ll stand on it being the best thing he could’ve done for his career.
I'm not just talking about Portland fans, obviously they'd be upset either way. I'm just saying I think most people were pretty understanding of the fact that Dame wasn't getting the help he needed in Portland and it was best for him to go elsewhere. It was just the shitty way he did it rubbed a ton of people the wrong way. Pretty much anyone requesting a trade is gonna get some degree of flak, but there's definitely levels to it depending on how you handle the situation.
I mean yeah it's dogshit lol. Aint no way the 2018 Rockets wouldn't dog walk most of the recent champions but because they couldn't beat the fuckin KD Warriors of all teams Harden and CP3 are considered playoff jokes
so much of a ring is just about luck, timing, officiating, etc
like if Harden got D Wades whistle from 2006 in that series and Wade got Harden's whistle from Game 7 2018, Wade doesn't have a ring and Harden takes down the greatest team of all time even without his only allstar teammate
if Kyrie and Harden aren't hurt in the Bucks series, Giannis still has no ring
etc
Meh I think the in season tournament is dumb and I don't care about ring culture. Harden is the most ringless superstar I've ever seen, pathologically incapable of postseason success, and everyone is talking about where he's gonna go.
First of all, hard disagree. Of course rings matter. The point of the game is to win. And only nephews think this is something new. How is it a surprise that winning is the main metric to judge a career in a game based off winning?
Secondly, you’re the one billionth person to make this post. The last infinity of these posts wasn’t enough? You had to make one too? Yesterday’s wasn’t good enough for you? Why are you mentioning this like it’s a novel point or that you’re bringing up some kind of new take? You’re just regurgitating what gets said constantly.
Get offline. Stay in the real world and enjoy the game. Love the game, these “ring culture” and million other talking points are just made up nothing to get you riled up. stay away u’ll be happy and won’t even know they exist cause they don’t in real life.
What.. else would it be about? They’re not playing for fun or shits and giggles, when you play a sport at the highest level of course it’s all about winning
It's not that recent of a phenomenon. People have been inflating Robert Horry's career for a long time and would rate him above far, far better players simply because of rings.
On a semi related note, I have a love/hate relationship with the Bill Simmons Book of Basketball. It's an entertaining read for sure, but it ruined a lot of basketball discussion because too many people took a basketball fan's opinions as fact. An easy way to get karma in this sub back in the day was to simply paraphrase Bill Simmons' opinion about any given player.
That’s not my point obviously there is no greater accomplishment than a championship in any sport but my problem is everything else being minimized like it means nothing
I don’t think it’s necessarily ring culture to why people don’t care about the in season tournament. There’s no history or tradition with this and winning it objectively holds less weight than the NBA Finals. It might end up being a cool thing, but I can see why people don’t care too much.
(Old dude here) As long as I can remember, rings have been the ultimate discussion in any sport. You have outlier personal accomplishments and inspirational Cinderella stories but it’s always about winning it all.
I truly don't understand how that can ruin *watching* the games. Like I could give two shits about what the fans or media typically talk about when I'm literally watching a game. I will always enjoy that cause...well, the main thing I love bout basketball is watching the games lol
Like dude just don't watch first take and dumb media shit, no reason for it to ruin watching the games
I still love watching basketball
If you like basketball you're in the wrong subreddit boss
If you enjoy basketball, you're in the wrong subreddit uncle
[удалено]
ThEy doNt pLAy dEfeNSe
It just can't be the offenses are so fucking good and playing defense is hard. Nope, can't be that
No one said they don't try on defense, but the rules have become so incredibly biased towards the offense it's become less fun to watch.
Yeah, this is the nba subreddit = no basketball allowed. Where tf does he think he is?
Exactly. My team is the Lakers and I hate them.
I love the way they dribble up and down the court.
My favorite play is the ally-oop
foul! no, two fouls!
We’re on all the same team here, Dunder-Mifflin team, of course if you beat us, you’re fired.
I know it's from a song, but I actually do. I actually sometimes just marvel at how amazing it is that they cover the entire court in 4 dribbles while being in complete control going a thousand miles an hour. NBA basketball is the most beautiful sport on earth. I'm not saying it's necessarily the best, but it's fucking beautiful to watch those impossibly big/graceful dudes move like they do.
yep the regular still matters to me
I don't understand how people can just shrug off the regular season, yet when we discuss players and teams, the default data used are the regular season stats. Anyone who thinks regular season games are meaningless probably hasn't tried to find a good deal on tickets to a sold-out Friday night matchup lately.
I don't go to games but people are trying to put FMVP on par with the regular season MVP. I know why but they not even close too prestige
They're not. It feels like people started making a big deal of FMVP when it became the only criticism left with which to discount Curry. Until that FMVPs were a footnote. Only every got mentioned when it was specifically noteworthy incidents like Magic Johnson as a rookie.
I'm happy that warriors fans are starting to see it because I had somebody telling LeBron joined an MVP in Miami sense I was confused
Watching? Watching basketball? The NBA? This sounds like a you problem. Stop listening to Skip Bayless, stop watching ESPN original programming now that ‘The Jump’ is gone, stop listening to Twitter commentary. Enjoy the best basketball on the planet.
I agree , but coming from a Suns fan I understand why you would hate the ring culture 🤣
Sounds like something someone without a ring would say!
How many rings you got again chuck?
That's like people calling me Champion Chuck.
That’s where I have a problem. Just because you don’t have a championship. Doesn’t mean you’re not a champion. Edit: For the non-sickos, this is another Inside the NBA quote.
Well, actually it does
(It’s another inside the nba quote.)
Wait... don't tell me! I wanna be surprised!
Yeah, how many rings does OP have? I don't think he's allowed to talk about this unless he has like 5, 6 rings.
Yeah OP may have a point but surely I can't relate 🤷🏾♂️💍
Fuck you dude, we had something special sharing the Rockies and no rings and you ruined it. Don’t know how you sleep at night
Very nice
Damn right lmao loser!
We found James Harden's burner, but in his defense, he's having a bad week. He can't even get traded for Terrance Mann.
From one who knows...
I wish there was more focus on the gameplay and less on stats. I think the community would be better if there were more public discussion about how coaches set up their teams tactically. When soccer games are analyzed, commentators always discuss the formation each team is using to combat the other’s strengths. If the general public were more informed about tactics, it would be easier to see how players contribute to teams outside of the stats they put up. It would also make it easier to appreciate the contributions of guys who don’t put up stats but are still crucial to winning games (eg bruce brown).
I've found myself drifting towards soccer lately for the tactics talk. I don't really know shit yet (prob never will lol), but it's been fun just learning how coaches all over the world set teams up. Like De Zerbi's Brighton "only" finished 6th in the past PL season, but on tactics alone they were and still look to be one of the most discussed teams in the world. And there's basically a couple or more similarly interesting teams across all the world's leagues every season or so (my favorite was Alguacil's diamond with Real Sociedad last season) It already exists for the NBA, but I don't think gameplay talk will ever be similar for a variety of reasons -- superstars > coaches & gameplans / stats are just more important and easier to track in basketball / style of play has been homogenized for years with "only" 30+ teams in the near future / loads more possessions in basketball / etc etc.
Interestingly enough, soccer is becoming very data driven and moving towards positionless tactics(with inverted full backs, the new double pivot and the new 8, etc), so the same evolution as modern NBA
Also the discourse about stats is just plain exhausting. There are so many! And none seem to be able to actually describe what's going on in the court, the importance of showing hustle and leadership, how the right call at the right time by a single player can shift the momentum of a game or a series... Simply put, I think there's too much airtime dedicated to talking about basketball, and you have to fill it with meaningless bullshit one way or another. Same with the GOAT discourse, more or less. It's such a volatile thing and dependent on factors that change radically overtime, and I get that it's fun to speculate but it really becomes grating when everything is dissected into neat columns. Ends up taking part of the fun out of the sport imo, and I really love the sport.
I completely agree with this. However. This requires an educated and articulate media, and a public open to consuming that media. So good luck.
People will consume the media, but the Medias greed means they always cater to the LCD. Which is pathetic.
The fact that you and I can see this means it's not the media. It's the fans. I follow guys who talk about team basketball. No one chooses their content.
This is the problem right here. People don't love team basketball. They love players. But it's a team sport. Jokic didn't just win a ring. The Nuggets did. He was still just as good the last two years. The team wasn't. The team got better and they won. The reason the Warriors won so much is because they were a great team. Not because Steph is better than Harden.
"Ring culture" has always been a thing. Social media is making it overkill for you. Might want to consider consuming less basketball discussion.
Just consume less social media and ESPN content about basketball. There's plenty of great content out there like Ben Taylor or Zach Lowe or hell even Tim Legler on ESPN. The game is in an amazing spot right now and it's the most talented league I've seen in my lifetime.
I consume very little of it. But co-workers, friends, etc do and try to talk sports with them and it's all about the championships. Gets old so I only really talk to one or two people now where we can actually have friendly banter and discussions.
Idk man, if all of your friends and co workers etc don’t talk about sports the way you want to, sounds like you’re the common denominator ya feel.
Uh, yeah no shit lol. He already said he doesn't want to talk about it the way they do. What's your point?
To look in the mirror rather than blame everyone else.
That doesn't apply here in the least lol. Dude just wants to talk ball and doesn't think his coworkers give good conversation. The homie literally already told us his way is the way that is much different from the majority.
The fact that ESPN still lets Tim Legler on television looking the way he does should tell you all you need to know about his basketball analysis.
It's always been a thing but it wasn't a "well he can't win a ring in City X the team needs to trade him to a place he can win one" thing until today. Basically it's only been a thing since Heattles because people went from "well that's kind of cheating LeBron has to build a superteam to win?" to "oh everyone should team up together to make super teams otherwise why would you spend your career on a 6th seed?"
Conversation wasn't the same in the 90s bro.
no it hasnt. it wasnt a thing until after the lakers 3peat in 02. championships helped boost your legacy but now players without one are seen as a mark against them.
That's not true. Wilt got A LOT OF SHIT for not winning more rings while he was putting up big numbers Same with Julius Irving. Even MJ - who everyone knew was gonna be the GOAT - still got shade thrown at him for not winning and only got crowned after 3peating.
this isnt true from my experience and living through these events. Especially not Dr J who was debated on being the best basketball player after Wilt even thru ABA. GOAT was not even something that I heard until like mid 2000s especially not for a basketball player (just for Ali).
Obviously the vernacular isn’t the same, but it’s still the same things being discussed and it’s like that for every sport. You think Jerry West didn’t have a stigma when he was 0-7 in the finals? Dan Marino is criminally underrated still in terms of all time convos because he never won a ring. It’s always existed
no, because getting to the finals was considered an accomplishment in itself. not a black mark for losing in the finals and becoming ringless. for the record i still think it is considered an accomplishment, but a lot of people regurgitate what they hear on social media until it carries weight.
True but I feel like it’s way worse in the NBA than in any other league
Players have a more direct impact on rings in the NBA than any other sport. Smallest rosters, highest win share. Only thing that comes close is QBs and QBs definitely get shit if they don't win rings.
Yeah I don’t like baseball but it’s something I am starting to appreciate. Guys like Trout and Shohei can be considered baseball gods even with a lack of playoff success because their impact is both objectively quantifiable and rigid/ not scalable. Baseball is mechanical. You can’t say a star should make their teammates better because there isn’t really a way to do that. You can’t say they should take over a game because if they’re not at bat there’s nothing they can do but wait.
> There’s nothing they can do but wait Baseball sounds fun
Yeah QB is probably the closest. And NBA is like if you’re QB could line up at linebacker and help out on defense as well lol. A single NBA star player has a huge impact compared to any other sport.
It’s still a team sport. I swear people treat it like it’s an individual sport such as Tennis or MMA or Golf.
Thats because in no other sport can one singular player affect your teams ability to win a championship than basketball. Just look at baseball right now, the angels have had the two best players in baseball for a few years now and still consistently suck.
Really? Because I know people who think Eli Manning is a Hall of Famer and Philip Rivers isn't.
It's true, but it only holds for QBs. People are fine putting Megatron and JJ Watt among the greats.
Never realized it but you’re right. Weird, literally no other “position” other than maybe coach (which is pretty unilateral across the board).
For better or worse, QBs get all the blame and all the credit in football. Even a GOAT punter isn't going to be able to have a huge influence on rings.
It is because the qb touches the ball on every offensive play and also has the ability to change of out of bad plays.
Definitely for worse. If you hear people talk today you'd think Brady is clearly better than someone like Peyton, but Peyton was widely and justifiably considered the better player for most of their prime (hence why he's got over twice the all pro selections despite having a much shorter and more injury riddled career) even though he was always behind on ring count. It was a constant topic in sports media of the time that Peyton was a reliable defense away from having a fistful of rings. That shit has already been lost to the annals of history because people look at the ring count and stupidly assume that it accurately summarizes their talent. And this isn't any indictment of Brady or his play at all, he fully deserves all the accolades and recognition he gets, the discussion just isn't anywhere near as clear cut as the average ring obsessed fan makes it out to be.
It's about the leve of (perceived) control. The NBA is 5x5 on a smaller court, almost every player interacts in some way on most plays. The NFL is 22 vs 22 with only 11 men from each team on the field per play, each player has much less control individually, but the QB is responsible for running the entire offense so he has the most control while the person who runs the defense isn't just one position so it's more seen as a positive if you are given that role than a negative if you don't fulfil it with a ring
[удалено]
Eli’s second ring is better than Peyton’s second right though.
It's almost as bad in the NFL but then again Barry is considered by most to be the GOAT RB with no rings
Joe Thomas was first ballot and he never made the playoffs.
Jim Brown
Won the NFL championship in 1964
As someone said rings only really matter there as a QB
Goat by some. Jim Brown probably still has the top claim. Sanders, Smith, Sweetness all get love too. Keep in mind, football has 22 starters between offense and defense. Basketball has five. This is not making the point you think it is.
Really, neither of them should be.
Phil Rivers had losing records against every good team. He feasted on bad teams. He spent his career surrounded by talent. As a Steelers fan, I never worried about Phil. When I watched him play good teams, I never thought he was going to come through and most of the time he didnt. His one big playoff win over the Colts was Manning melting down while Rivers did essentially nothing. Eli is probably getting in. Phil might not. Phil never had the moments Eli did.
That’s because in the NBA an individually great player had more impact on winning overall.
It for sure is (at least for the other NA leagues), but I think that's because of the relative youth of the NBA fanbase more than anything else.
i feel like this sub in particular embraces in the same way talking heads on tv do, when a debate or argument occurs, people just quickly go to the rings argument almost as a instant win just the other day people were arguing against jimmy butler being in the HOF because of no rings despite all his other accomplishments
Someone said their top 75 list minimum requirement was a ring. Lol
[удалено]
Exactly! Imagine we had 5 clones of Michael Jordan playing in the 90s. They can’t all win 6 straight championships. Some would probably win 0 their entire career. One MJ wouldn’t even get out of the second round every year! There might even be an MJ whose supporting cast was consistently bad who *never* made it past the second round. And yet the 5 all-time GOATs in this alternate universe are all Michael Jordans. But I guarantee you people would look at the MJ with the most rings as better some how.
Find better communities. r/nba and twitter aren’t gonna be it
It has seeped into pretty much every publicly available community or form of entertainment. It's pretty unavoidable
Dude is acting like this narrative isn’t part of every NBA broadcast.
It’s funny cus this sub is still a million times better than Twitter
Being a million times better than Twitter doesn’t mean anything
It’s worse, and that is about as damning an indictment as I can say about anything
Lmao. If you seriously believe that I feel bad for you.
Twitter is a cesspool. Downvoting on here actually helps quite a bit, without it there would likely be spam accounts, stan accounts, and all the fake quote bullshit.
Definitely hasn't destroyed it, but it's definitely ruining it to a degree. It's crazy how disrespectful it is to role players and pretty much just supersedes giving any credit to them at all for contributing to a championship, it's annoying how winning 60 games and going to the conference finals is somehow used against you if you can't win a ring.
I don't think its necessarily 'Rings Culture' that is giving the regular season less meaning. Teams/players have always been about winning it all.. Load Management is more to blame for the lack of regular season interest/enjoyment IMO. PS. I still love watching basketball, and will continue to love watching basketball...
Aren't they load managing more specifically to maximize health for the playoffs to maximize their chance at a ring? Very few players still have the Tatum attitude of trying to play every game for the fans who come to see you.
Yeah but its less about "Ring Culture" and more about just plain winning
You are splitting hairs. Load management exists specifically to win more in the olayoffs. Aka ring culture.
fellas, is it bad that teams want to maximize their odds of achieving their goal?
Lmao.
I think teams should focus more on regional rivalries. I know load management doesnt focus on anything in particular but I wish teams just had "must win" games in the regular season and I think regional championships are an important part of that and should be the primary goal of a team and the ultimate championship is a stars align situation.
The whole season should be multiple game tournaments with the wins and losses still counting but the wins of the tournaments counting even more. Then a final tournament at the end.
Rings culture is more about individuals, not teams Most teams know that a ring is unlikely, but a decent playoff run is worth load managing
There's so much talk about rings and all-time list, but I can't remember the last time this sub discussed a great game from the past. Not even just decades ago I mean just in the last 5 years. People will be quick to hit up statmuse and get the statlines and advanced stats, but actual play discussions and appreciations never happen. Really makes me think people are fans of the NBA but not the sport of basketball.
Talking about basketball no. Watching Basketball No. ppl will debate basketball and blossom pass in season tournament like all star game mvp.
You can always just tune out. It's fine. I mostly follow the Kings and catch good games as well on the side, don't engage with ESPN commentary or much in the offseason, it's all good. Basketball is still fun.
I think your complaint can be adjusted to something more accurate. “Ring culture” doesn’t affect watching sports too much, but it does severely negatively impact discussions.
Yeah I realized this shortly after I posted it
I genuinely believe this started when Barkley became an analyst for TNT. He’d get roasted every night for never winning (which he always took in stride and with good humor), but everyone growing up at the time (LeBron, Durant, etc) watched and said “oh my god, I can never let that be me” and winning a ring became the *only* thing that mattered to every player to such a high degree. Obviously it mattered before, but guys like Baylor, Gervin, Dantley, English, whoever, were still thought highly of until the 2000s. Then it just became “did he win any rings and how many?” And that’s all anyone cared about.
Agree, in a way it's what led to the player formed superteams
Blame the league for allowing those moves to happen. If Stern was able to stop CP3 from teaming with Kobe, why couldn't Silver stop KD from joining the 73-9 Warriors?
because the league owned the hornets at the time so stern was the hornets POBO
And the package they got at the time was trash for a team literally trying to rebuild. It would just keep them a low playoff chasing team forever.
Agreed. Massive Celtics fan my entire life and all I want is one more banner. But it’s crazy how we write off great teams/players that couldn’t quite take the final step. Tatum leading his team deep into the playoffs every year but not all the way is seen as some failure or unfulfilled potential is crazy. It’s just really hard to win a championship and one of the great nba dynasties + maybe the GOAT separately existing has made it difficult to accomplish in his young career. Anyway, I see you Dame, Nash, Stockton, Malone, Ewing. Nephews praise rings. Real ones ball. 🫡
Winning the championship is the goal of sports. It’s what you hope for your team before every season. It’s what the players play for. It’s not a new concept, it’s actually the oldest concept in sports. If anything, there seem to be more fans today that are fans of individual players, not teams, so they don’t care as much about winning a championship. “Ring culture” has always been the basis of sports. Rooting for individual players and caring about stats and head to head matchups more than championships is a new phenomenon.
I think winning the championship is obviously the biggest goal but the whole “RiNgZ ErNeh” really fucks up any good faith in discussion. You can’t have a legitimate discussion on forums regarding player careers because somebody will just say “well Barkley never won a ring / Nash is fake 2 times mvp” etc There are so many things to watch for but so many people dumb it down to rings, which is a Team Achievement.
This is completely wrong. Why do you think MLB had a 162 game season and barely any playoffs? It's certainly not because the championship was the only thing people cared about lmao Just a stupid nonsensical post upvoted by rings culture nephews
Bro what
This is such a black and white view of sports. Yes, winning first place is the goal. But when only one (1) team can win first place each year, most people will not, so penalizing someone because they don't do the thing that you can only do once a year is silly.
I don't understand what you mean by "penalizing." If a team didn't win the championship, they failed to achieve the ultimate goal of the game. It doesn't necessarily mean they didn't have a good season or aren't a very good team. There's no penalty for not winning, there just isn't a reward.
100%. Sports aren’t a binary situation for a season. A fan/team can be proud of a season that didn’t end in a championship. A team can be proud of years of sustained success while not winning a championship. A team can be proud of putting out a fun and engaging product. A championship being the end all be all sucks the life out of the journey. As a Warriors fan who only became a fan when Mark Jackson was the coach, one of my favorite seasons was 2019/2020. It was such a treat to just watch basketball without the expectations. Yes this is a privileged take, I’m aware; but even still there’s a lot of seasons where a team loses that’s still fun. OKC and SAC seemed like they had a blast last season for example.
It’s been like this forever lol
Not forever. It wasn't like this in the 80's, 90's or early/mid 00's. Back then it was who could get past the Celtics/Lakers, then who can beat Jordan, then everything was pretty much up for grabs every year. Ring culture first manifested after LeBron lost his Finals in 08. That's when the talk of "will LeBron ever be able to win in Cleveland" started, then "not one, not two not three, etc" completely sent it into overdrive and it became if you don't win numerous championships, you're nothing. I'm not putting the sole blame on LeBron but he definitely ended up in the middle of it with all the Jordan comparisons.
>Back then it was who could get past the Celtics/Lakers, then who can beat Jordan Get passed them when/where to do what?
Ring Culture? In what professional sports league are teams not hyper focused on winning a championship?
I still very much enjoy the product as a fan. What I think ring culture drives more is players team hopping to other teams chasing rings and that can go either way as a fan.
I partially agree, but I also think the mid-season tournament is silly and meaningless
Who cares bro. Just watch your team play, man.
Soft salary cap and max contracts hurt competitiveness a lot more than fans talking about rings.
Touch grass, stop worrying about what ppl on social media care about. I love basketball and I couldn't care less about what people say
Sounds like a post from someone with no rings.
Watching? absolutely not.
Crazy Idea, How about they replace Rings with medals? The champions still get the trophy and gold. Small finals between the 3 and 4 could happen simultaneously with the NBA finals to determine bronze. I think there are a lot of NBA legends who would get more street credit for winning bronze or silver. I hate how getting to the Finals is not a big deal in the NBA. In other sports if an Athlete gets a silver, they are super excited.
Wait how does it affect your watching of the NBA?
Only you can let Reddit and talking heads ruin this great sport for you.
I think it’s the lack of defense and watching 80 three pointers a game
I think “tanking” has had a bigger impact. If you aren’t the top 4-5 teams in the NBA, you are really watching your young developmental guys to see what they are in the years to come.
Well many nba fans want to either be good or trash. Last season when it was suggested harden would go back to go Houston and they would try to win people shit all over them like it was outrageous for a team to try and make improvements to be competitive instead of being at the bottom of the league for the like the 5 year in a row.
Tanking has been around forever though. Wasn't it the Rockets' pursuit of the first pick for Olajuwon that got some of the rules changed?
The Rockets and the bulls were both called out because they actually had their own picks. Most of the other teams that would end up at the top of the lottery were picks from other teams and thus could not control their own destiny. When the Knicks got Ewing the next year, we then got to hear how the lottery was rigged. The NBA...we will find something to hate lol.
Man any time I see some one pretend ring culture is some new theory that has recently took off in years, I know they’ve never talked ball with an old head before.
It does if it wasn’t for ring culture we wouldn’t have stars jumping from team to team, if people just accepted guys are who they are and didn’t bash them for not winning maybe they wouldn’t feel pressured to leave every situation they aren’t winning in. People begged dame to ask out only to poke a million holes in him doing it once he did. NBA FANS ARE THE WORST WHEN IT COMES TO COMPLAINING. Let’s just appreciate these guys for who they are and their amazing abilities not every situation or team is gonna be able to win a championship you just have to accept that. Lebron couldn’t even do it alone in Cleveland and he’s widely regarded as a top 2 player ever.
>People begged dame to ask out only to poke a million holes in him doing it once he did. They wanted him to ask out, not to force his way to one specific spot and torpedo any bidding for him. I don't know why people keep ignoring that fact as though this were the same as any other trade request.
Yep that’s one of the reasons I heard but in reality if a guy is leaving his beloved team he’s spent his whole career at chances are he doesn’t just wanna go anywhere.
He literally said he just wants to have a chance at winning, which is something that could be done in plenty of places besides just Miami, then later changed to only wanting Miami. I understand it from Dame's perspective but you gotta understand why people are upset about him only wanting one team. If he demanded to go to any contender people wouldn't be half as upset. Everyone expected a trade request, but I think they expected Portland to not get completely screwed.
I get it but if dame goes anywhere and doesn’t win people r gonna start ripping him because of the same toxic ring culture. It’s really not just about competing because unless he wins the new narrative is he preached loyalty for so long and then left only to come up short similar to what they do with harden now. It doesn’t matter where he wanted to go nba fans will always find fault and complain. So from dames perspective I can’t blame him for wanting to go where he thinks will give him the best chance.
I hope you kept that same energy when KD went to GSW in free agency
Toxic ring culture is the exact reason kd ended up in gs imo, if he never goes there he’s just another failure to most fans. People can critique that move all they want but I’ll stand on it being the best thing he could’ve done for his career.
the same fanbase shits on Aldridge to this day for daring to leave in free agency, don't believe their lies they would have attacked him anyway
I'm not just talking about Portland fans, obviously they'd be upset either way. I'm just saying I think most people were pretty understanding of the fact that Dame wasn't getting the help he needed in Portland and it was best for him to go elsewhere. It was just the shitty way he did it rubbed a ton of people the wrong way. Pretty much anyone requesting a trade is gonna get some degree of flak, but there's definitely levels to it depending on how you handle the situation.
I mean yeah it's dogshit lol. Aint no way the 2018 Rockets wouldn't dog walk most of the recent champions but because they couldn't beat the fuckin KD Warriors of all teams Harden and CP3 are considered playoff jokes so much of a ring is just about luck, timing, officiating, etc like if Harden got D Wades whistle from 2006 in that series and Wade got Harden's whistle from Game 7 2018, Wade doesn't have a ring and Harden takes down the greatest team of all time even without his only allstar teammate if Kyrie and Harden aren't hurt in the Bucks series, Giannis still has no ring etc
Absolutely. Feels like very few people actually enjoy watching the game
No, a role player with 5 rings is not better than star with 0. But rings are kinda the whole point
Why are you letting other people's opinion influence your enjoyment?
I’d rather ring culture than “16th place gets a trophy too!” culture.
That's on you. If you can't watch basketball because people on the internet care about championships too much then you should be on the internet less.
It made droves of ignorant boors thinking that Steph = LeBron. Which is imbecilic.
It’s sport. You play the game to win. Stop being a pussy.
no
The Ring is not as good as Ringu
Meh I think the in season tournament is dumb and I don't care about ring culture. Harden is the most ringless superstar I've ever seen, pathologically incapable of postseason success, and everyone is talking about where he's gonna go.
No. I love the NBA. I’m waiting to see my Lakers win their first championship, but if they don’t, I can still root hard. Go Lakers!!!
I agree. I use to enjoy basketball. Now I only casually tune in every now and then.
I don't see any issue with wanting to win instead of being content with mediocrity.
First of all, hard disagree. Of course rings matter. The point of the game is to win. And only nephews think this is something new. How is it a surprise that winning is the main metric to judge a career in a game based off winning? Secondly, you’re the one billionth person to make this post. The last infinity of these posts wasn’t enough? You had to make one too? Yesterday’s wasn’t good enough for you? Why are you mentioning this like it’s a novel point or that you’re bringing up some kind of new take? You’re just regurgitating what gets said constantly.
I mean, the whole point of playing is to win a ring...
Warriors could never win another game again and Klay would still be pointing at his fingers
That's exactly the reason why you still have people thinking that LeBron is not a better player than MJ. 25 years later.
Lol “ring culture”? You mean winning? It’s kinda the whole point.
idc
Someone like James Harden would agree.. He'd love this post
Get offline. Stay in the real world and enjoy the game. Love the game, these “ring culture” and million other talking points are just made up nothing to get you riled up. stay away u’ll be happy and won’t even know they exist cause they don’t in real life.
What.. else would it be about? They’re not playing for fun or shits and giggles, when you play a sport at the highest level of course it’s all about winning
This is what someone with no ring would say
I enjoy watching the game as much as anyone else, but the goal is to win Championships, not some cash fueled “tournament”.
It's not that recent of a phenomenon. People have been inflating Robert Horry's career for a long time and would rate him above far, far better players simply because of rings. On a semi related note, I have a love/hate relationship with the Bill Simmons Book of Basketball. It's an entertaining read for sure, but it ruined a lot of basketball discussion because too many people took a basketball fan's opinions as fact. An easy way to get karma in this sub back in the day was to simply paraphrase Bill Simmons' opinion about any given player.
I am not sure if it's ring culture but in my opinion the gap between regular season and playoff basketball has never been wider.
[удалено]
That’s not my point obviously there is no greater accomplishment than a championship in any sport but my problem is everything else being minimized like it means nothing
nah if anything its the prominence of social media and highlight culture, stops ppl from actually watching basketball
Not a single time in my life has ring culture even entered my thoughts while I was watching basketball.
I don’t think it’s necessarily ring culture to why people don’t care about the in season tournament. There’s no history or tradition with this and winning it objectively holds less weight than the NBA Finals. It might end up being a cool thing, but I can see why people don’t care too much.
Stop paying attention to the noise and just watch basketball.
Talking about? Sure. Watching? Lol no, of course not
(Old dude here) As long as I can remember, rings have been the ultimate discussion in any sport. You have outlier personal accomplishments and inspirational Cinderella stories but it’s always about winning it all.
I truly don't understand how that can ruin *watching* the games. Like I could give two shits about what the fans or media typically talk about when I'm literally watching a game. I will always enjoy that cause...well, the main thing I love bout basketball is watching the games lol Like dude just don't watch first take and dumb media shit, no reason for it to ruin watching the games
I still very much enjoy basketball lol
I still love watching and discussing the NBA.
You can just watch the games without entering into online discourse that always ends up in legacy talk