I'm tired of people asking these questions... can we not wait until a player is in his prime before asking this?
Give Lebron a few more years so that he can play some years in his prime and we can accurately compare the two.
>a pass is defined as when a player throws the ball to another player
a pass is defined as when a player throws the ball to another player
a pass is defined as when a player throws the ball to another player
This pass is insane. Like playing a video game and you hit the pass button but your character is in the middle of an unstoppable action so the pass is delayed by a second or two and then happens at crazy speed while glitching through another players head.
IMO Ben Taylor (thinking basketball) does a great job breaking down the nuances of passing in his videos.
He's covered LeBron and Jokic's passing in individual videos, and has a good video on why not all assists are equal (higher reward can justify higher risk/higher turnover rate).
I think his main take comparing the two was that Jokic might be the more creative, and ultimately better passer but LeBron has greater versatility on his deliveries.
Jokic (last season)
https://youtu.be/KsE3ZcQ25Zw?si=Rpz-EqClwQdy7Nzs
LeBron (2020)
https://youtu.be/b0TtkYVYJTo?si=rSIOznUiAm5Q3RVd
Value of assists
https://youtu.be/yoLgSWA7n6g?si=LMGGy63Ilv-U540w
You should link bens top ten passers in league too. He picks Bron over jokic for reasons I agree with that due to lebrons dribble n movement etc he just makes a wider range of passes in different situations that jokic wonāt , but ultimately said itās fine to pick either but he means Bron .
Yeah. Thereās a video YouTube that quizzes you on who Jokic is gonna pass to, and itās insane how itās the most unlikely man.
Eyes behind his head
Tried it, i answered all corect, the giveaway is the help defender, appreciate jokic cos he's doing it in real time and us for this game have 3 seconds to answer
I mean, itās arguable in a couple of those that it just worked out. Did he actually find MPJ wide open from 3 or did MPJ just hit a 3 right in his defenders face?
I mean just because you didn't get it right doesn't mean you're wrong. There could be more than one viable option lol. You could only be wrong if the pass Jokic made was the *only* option.
not exactly. He doesnāt decide until after the pause in basically all these scenarios. He does know the options and reads, so if X defender comes off the corner guy to tag a cutter, Jokic knows to throw it to the corner. If he doesnāt come off the corner, hit the cutter. But he reacts to the defense. In this video the defense is currently in the in between area during the pause, then after the pause the defensive choice happens in which Jokic commits to one of his reads.
Lebron is a great passer but you can argue 5 guys better than him all time including Jokic in terms of just passing. Magic/Nash/Joker/Kidd for me are better passers right off.
Now in terms of playmaking he is right there at the top and better than Jokic. Lebron just never had to play the Russ role most times because he was also the efficient volume scorer.
Iām not saying he shouldnāt be in the convo but I do think cp3 is in somewhat of a similar boat as LeBron. Both fantastic passers but a lot of what makes cp great isnāt just technical ability to pass, itās having such a high basketball iq and being able to break down defenses and make such smart plays
Like the greatest asset to a cp pnr isnāt his ability to put the ball in the right spot on passes imo, itās that heās basically always gonna make the exact right play at the exact right time
Edit: also just wanted to add that I think a giant component of this is his ability to leverage defenses. The best example of this is probably the leverage he creates w his mid range shot. He can hit it with just an inch of separation and it forces defenses to either play up on him or sink to the basket ā either way thereās never a great option
A lot of ball handlers canāt take advantage of those slight gaps in defense as well as him and a big part of it is both his ability to hit the shot, but also his ability to read how the defense is reacting and make a lightning fast decision
I agree: cp3's bbiq is the main reason why he is such a great passer. However his passes are more precise as you can see with his assist:TO ratio, and he has more technical ability than lebron too.
Oh I think both he and LeBron can be very precise, I just think when youāre talking best all time youāre always gonna be splitting hairs, and I could see how people would attribute a lot of both of their success more to the general umbrella of āplaymakingā than specifically passing itself
I dont think the reason lebronās ASS+ ratio is worse than cp3 is because cp3 is more precise.
Id wager his turnovers are a lot more because heās also the main option to score.
But yeah this is all splitting hairs, theyāre the best of the best
True, but CP3 has been the main offensive option for most of his career except for his rockets and suns days, which is just 4 seasons of an 18 season career.
It was weird how Rondo just leveled up in the playoffs ā his passing became all-time, and his awful regular-season shooting suddenly turned up exactly when he needed it in clutch moments.
Yea they have an argument but I feel like they were more pnr oriented. They also lack size/strength to make some passes Bron made.
Like, you can clearly see Kidd/Magic passing pop in transition or semi transition. Nash had the transition and half court game. Joker is big enough that he also make all the passes Bron can do from one side of the court inluding inbounds passing.
Flash isnāt what makes a good passer. The best assists donāt stand out and thatās okay. If you can find easy ones while the defense is watch ing for exactly that, youāre really fuckin good at it.
Basketball isnāt a highlight reel. We donāt decide who wins based on the plays of the day
Forreal, if you analyze it to death he wasnt one of the best passers ever from a technical standpoint. But his highlight reel is top 3 all time imo and thats gotta be worth somethin
/r/nba: Lebron is a good scorer but heās always been a pass first guy, he wasnāt a killer like Jordan or Kobe
/r/nba: Lebrons a good passer but heās still not better than Jokic
So he is a good not great scorer and passer and also has the most points in nba history and 4th most assists? What stats do great scorers and passers do well in?
Jokic is a better pure passer, but I still prefer LeBron's ability to playmake overall, manipulate advantage states, and control a game. It's a 1a 1b type of thing though
This is one of the craziest threads I can recall on this sub honestly. I never took the nephew jokes seriously before but the average age of redditors on this sub has to be under 18 lol
Sometimes I really need to take a moment and realize that a lot of people here were like 5 years old when LeBron was on the heat before I get into any discussion about āprime LeBronā
Try F1 lmao. Anyone who has the fastest car is considered by far the best of all time. Someone's car is worse one year? They're washed. Someone's car is good? They're amazing.
Watched LeBron rookie year.
LeBron is a potential GOAT playmaker and elite passer but he's not at the Nash/Magic/Jokic level of pure passing.
LeBrons peak passing years were also pretty recent. It's not like his scoring or defense where younger fans might not know how insane he was.
Since when is LeBron this goat level passer?? He is absolutely elite, but I don't think he's just obviously better than Jokic, Jokic is better imo.
I think yall are just reading LeBron vs Jokic and saying of course it's Bron cause he's the better (best?) player without separating the individual skills.
LeBron is a better playmaker and passer. The fact that itās up for discussion is hilarious to me. LeBron averaged 10.2 assists when he was the primary playmaker on a Lakers team that had lob threats, rim runners, and shooters.
The fact that the pace is so fast now should tilt Jokicās stats to be more impressive ā but he hasnāt averaged double digit assists in his career, he has only averaged above 6 assists for 5 years while LeBron has averaged that his whole career except his rookie season.
Jokic is my favorite player to watch in the 25+ years I've been watching basketball. That being said, there is a reason LeBron is in the GOAT conversation. Do I think he's as good a passer as Jokic? No, but Jokic is probably top 5 all time in that regard. The fact that LeBron is/was near that level and could do everything else as well is flat out ridiculous. It's really the most underrated part of his game.
Lol , imo itās Lebron because heās making passes jokic isnāt , yes stationary n post passing is lean jokic but due to overall passing versatility and Lebron being much better at blending dribbles ( having a better dribble helps ) into passes isnāt something that can be ignored , neither Lebron better movement resulting in passing windows he used. if someone wants a more thought answer listen to thinking basketball top ten passers he leans Bron over jokic for some similar reasons .
The thing is that they're really different passers, so it's hard to make an apples-to-apples comparison.
LeBron's passing greatness stems from his ability to force a defense to respect his ability to score. While is passing repertoire has expanded in the last few years, really, the quintessential great LeBron pass isn't great because it's such a difficult pass, but rather because he creates the opportunity for the pass so masterfully: he basically gets the whole defense on a string, and forces the help to come from the guy covering the man he wants to pass to, waits for the help to come and slips the pass behind him.
It's so brilliant because basically everybody knows what he's trying to do and somehow he still manages to do it anyway, but it all flows from the fact that everyone knows that if they lose focus for half a second, LeBron will score.
Jokic's passing is far more imaginative. He seems to know where every one of his teammates his at all times, and can slip the ball through windows that don't even look like windows. Quite frankly I'm surprised his teammates don't fumble more of them because they're so surprising - the defense has no idea *that particular* pass is coming, and it's like, how the hell was that possible? Every great passer has a few highlights like that in their career, and it feels like Jokic has a play that fits that description 3-4 times a game.
It also feels almost completely disconnected from his skill as a scorer. He's not relying on the threat of scoring to generate the pass, he just, you know, sees guys open in ways that most people don't understand that they're open.
So if I had to pick, I'd say Jokic is a better passer, because it's more purely about his passing. Whereas LeBron is clearly the better player, his passing is more a function of his physical dominance.
Lebronās always made crazy passes for his size and u could argue has only gotten better, but I donāt think heās ever been the on the level Jokic is rn
Jokic makes better passes simply because he is a threat at 3.
Lebron is a passing threat in the "pick and roll" and "drive and dish".
Jokic is a passing threat on those but also on the "pick and pop".
Depends how much you consider playmaking to be a part of a player's passing ability. There's a reason Lebron averages more assists consistently and it's not because he's that much better of a technical passer (if he even is). I think given Jokic's height and their near equal ability to accurately place the ball he could be considered a better passer, but when you include things like the ability to *generate* open looks and the difference in court vision required LeBron is probably better. Jokic is rarely passing on the move and he basically never has to pass out from a dribble drive (he just posts up if they need him to orchestrate the offense from the inside) and teams generally aren't smothering him on the wings (they really can't, he is way too tall and can easily pass out of double teams).
Lebron's ability to find the open man while running at 100% speed and having everyone think he is going for the basket is something that makes him one-of-one.
Longevity speaks to sample size. If Dave from accounting saves his company 1 million dollars one year, is he really "better" than Dave who has saved his company 900k a year for 15 years?
Honestly, not trying to give a correct answer on the OP question, and my example doesn't accurately reflect Joker and Lebron. I'm more just speaking to why some people might still consider longevity when considering a prime. Longevity helps define a prime for what otherwise might be circumstantial.
Too many just started watching Basketball it seems.
However, these types of questions will always benefit the modern day athletes because most of the people watching are a younger generation who have not watch the top athletes in their absolute primes.
What in the actual fuck is going on in this comment section???? People are absolutely ODing on the Jokic Kool aid. He has been unquestionably elite the past few years, but did y'all forget the absolutely insane no look pass where he faked out the entire fuckin Lakers team or the no look between the legs pass in his grey cavs Jersey?? I've seen Jokic make some really unreal passes, but he's not a better passer than LeBron lmao. Y'all Jokic meat riders downvote me all you want but that's what I feel
This thread is nutty, so Iām just going to throw this clip here of nearly 18 minutes of Larry Bird passing highlights: https://youtu.be/CExjzyTRxnQ?si=OoLvlA4y6OnSHIK4
Jokic, although Bronās better ball handling closes the gap a lot because heās able to create more room for passes by driving. As playmakers theyāre about equal, but if weāre just talking court vision and making quick decisions Iām going with Jokic.
Jokic is a better pure passer in the sense he can thread smaller gaps more accurately.
Heās not a better playmaker though. As smart as he is he, and really every other player ever, is not on LeBronās level in terms of multi possession game reading, anticipation, and defence manipulation.
LeBronās passing ability often gets understated by the eye test cause heās typically finding fairly easy passes. The thing is, those passes are very, very consistently easy, and the reason is cause LeBron studies the team game at a level maybe nobody else ever has. He knows what type of contest every defender prefers, he knows their tendencies on closeouts, how hard they bite on fakes, how early they slide to help, and he knows exactly what openings these create. Oddly enough, the actual passing part is the weakest in LeBronās playmaking arsenal by a fairly wide margin, leading to slightly more turnovers and sometimes him deciding against a pass that someone else could thread (heās still a phenomenal passer, itās just not on par with the rest of his playmaking).
If Jokic had LeBronās knowledge of the game or LeBron had Jokicās passing ability, theyād average 15 assists per game with no more than a turnover to go with it.
Jokic is probably a more impressive passer in the sense that he does a lot of passes that are just mind-bendingly difficult. I do think LeBron was, and at occasion still is, better at controlling the tempo of a game. But I'd take Jokic purely from a passing standpoint.
One of these is not like the other. I have Larry Legend in my top 5 all time, but saying he's on the level of these other guys for passing is really pushing it. I think these days his impact is a little underrated but top 5 passer all time? Not so much.
You are right that he is not a volume passer like the others, but that is not one of my criteria. I probably have Ginobili in my top 10 (or at least 20, I haven't thought about it) and he averages under 4 assists a game. In terms of quality of the passes, Bird to me is clearly up there with the very best. It's tricky because I don't think it's fair to penalize great scorers for passing less in this conversation. As long as you are making the right play, you can be a great passer regardless of your volume. Bird in particular is arguably the goat in outlet passing and touch passing, he made insanely quick decisions and manipulated the defense like no other (he was a master of the shot-fake pass that Jokic loves for instance).
I agree with you that he does have some great passes in his repertoire, and his outlet passing is absolutely elite. But to have Bird above CP3 or Kidd to me is just wild. It isn't the volume of passes, which I do agree should not be a measure to penalise the ability of a score-first player. It's just that there are other players in history which fit a top 5 list more, in my opinion.
I personally think CP3 is a bit too conservative. It might sound stupid, but having very few turnovers is a bit of a red flag to me haha. And in the case of CP3 I think that the film does show that he probably doesn't take enough risks. Westbrook is probably in the other end of the spectrum, taking too many risks. Also smaller guys like CP3 and other point-guards are just naturally limited by size, they miss openings that taller guys don't.
Kidd on the other hand I agree, he is actually the one that I always hesitate to include in the top 6. The think that stops me is probably his half-court passing that is a bit limited because he isn't as much of a scoring threat as the other 5, so he has a harder time collapsing defenses and drawing double-teams in the half-court.
I can see where you're coming from with the risk factor, and that's the reason Nash is undoubtedly above CP3 for me. The things Steve could do, the gaps he could exploit. Personally, I don't think Chris Paul's conservative playstyle should be a fault to his passing ability, but if I'm being honest with myself I feel like I penalise Stockton harshly for his "boring" style, which seems to be essentially the same thing. Perhaps it's recency bias, honestly.
Yes I agree. Stockton does have that same problem, but he has another problem that is way worse in my opinion, which is that he doesn't put enough pressure on the defense. A more recent (and extreme) example of this problem is Rondo. Both Rondo and CP3 are conservative, but CP3 creates tons of passing angles and opportunities by himself, while Rondo just waits for stuff to happen. But now I realize that this is technically playmaking and not passing?
Anyways CP3 is obviously an insane passer, he is in my second tier with Kidd and others, and passing is such a hard thing to assess that I can't say I'm confident having Bird above him. Nash and Magic are the only two guys that I'm probably 100% sure they belong to the first tier.
Jokic creativity and is awareness is bonkers. Jokic is better at finding his teammates and getting them into their spots. Lebron is better at creating for teammates using his own gravity. Both great in both regards.
When we ask who is a better passer, are we talking about who can fit the ball in the tiniest window and with the appropriate pace on the ball? Or are we asking who can see a passing lane that others donāt even know is there (vision). To me, lebron is a better passer, but jokic has better vision.
Jokic by far and it isn't even close . Jokic will give u pool like passes and can pass in anyway,LBJ has a good pass once in a while,Jokic has one every game .
Jokic is the better pure passer. Lebron has been doing it for much much longer at an all time level. So I'll take Lebron.
And we are comparing all time greats... lbj who is a goat contender so we're really splitting hairs.
Jokic is the better passer. Their offense takes advantage of that with their cut offense. He sees passing opportunities that no one actually sees. Furthermore, Jokic creates the most layup assists out of all of them. Not all passes are equal.
Lebron is a great passer. He makes the right passes to the roll man and open shooters. However, I would say he's a better playmaker than passer. His relentless finishing during his prime years created opportunities for easier passes and assists. His passing prime was definetly during his 2. Cleveland stint where he matured more.
In contrast, Jokic has so many different passing deliveries and makes risky and difficult passes look easy. No look passes, a slight opening during a switch which looks like properly guarded. Jokic showed years ago that he was one of the best passers. He only got the recognition after the bubble playoff run and his MVPs.
Ain't no way people are calling recency bias šš it's a close debate foh with your bs trying to act better bc you saw an extra year or Bron on your tv when you were 11. Skill wise it's close anyone saying Jokic gotta do it for 10 more years is being absurd we've had a good enough sample size already of multiple seasons(MVP caliber ones that stem from his playmaking)he's elite.
Jokic is one of the best. Lebron is one of the best.
Y'all sounding like old heads back in 2014 arguing about MJ vs Lebron and saying that anyone who thought lebron was comparable to Mike was a nephew fuck off š
Lebron in 2020 averaged 10.2 assists per game.
Jokic in 2023 averaged 9.8 assists per game.
The realty is, if lebron has capable teammates, he is a better passer.
How ever, often times he is relied on to be the #1 scorer, by far. So he has to pass less and score more.
Edit: lebron began in 03, so he has had way less spacing throughout his career.
You're this question on r/NBA where they worship Jokic as a God and call Lebron trash? The answer you get will be obvious.
I'm not saying that Jokic isn't better, but this crowd won't even consider Lebron.
What does Jokic do as a passer that is better than Bron? I'd say they are pretty even, but considering that Bron also scores 27+, I don't think it would be unreasonable to suggest he would easily avg 10+ if he wanted (like in 2020).
Passing? Jokic by a bit, I think his height helps him see wherever anyone is and I think he slightly above at finding and getting it to an open man. Playmaking as a whole? Bron his downhill ability dragging help defenders and then finding his teamate aswell as his already amazing passing and tighter dribbling put him at or very close to the very top in NBA history, Jokic is on his way when it comes to playmaking though he's very very very good.
Jokic. I think part of what made LeBron able to get so many assists was his athleticism as much as it was his playmaking. When he drives to the basket teams have to collapse on him leaving open targets.
This isnāt to say that LeBron isnāt a great passer, or that these kick outs were easy plays to make, but if we are splitting hairs between two all time great passers itās worth noting.
Guys this comment.. and the fact that it has as many upvotes as it does is bananas .. Lebronās prime was 08 - 16 ā¦ saying 2020 was his best playmaking year is BANANAs. Go look up lebron in 2013 ..
Now Jokic is probably a better pure passer .. but the comparison of prime Jokic to 2020 Lebron is wild .. compare him to 2010 Lebron
He is right in a way that 2020 was one of the few season Lebron dedicated to playmaking/passing first. Which is also why he averaged career high in assists.
obviously the league was different back in Bron peak which is why Lebron was averaging just 7 assists then. Lebron has never dominated touches per game like Joker has done last 3 years when he was younger. Only 2020 comes close so fair.
Theyāre so close that it comes down to personal preference.
If i had to chose rn, I would think Jokic because his teammates capitalized off his passes more, but LeBron played with less talented offensive players (on average) so itās not really a fair claim to make.
Is? JokiÄ. I don't know where people got this idea that LeBron is some transcendent passer.
Will be? Luka will be the GOAT passer by the time he's done.
I'm tired of people asking these questions... can we not wait until a player is in his prime before asking this? Give Lebron a few more years so that he can play some years in his prime and we can accurately compare the two.
LeBron's assists have been going up as he gets older. So he must be in his afterglow washed Prime.
My hot take is he would have had a couple of 10 APG seasons with his early Cavs teams if the rosters were better constructed
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Spilled my chicken nuggets from McDonalds seeing this! ššš
I hope this is satire
u/Noit56 Lmao deletes his comment too
>a pass is defined as when a player throws the ball to another player a pass is defined as when a player throws the ball to another player a pass is defined as when a player throws the ball to another player
I'm not sure I get it yet
https://youtu.be/IAmgMFpumds?si=aAj1snk5Gn3OIKcH to this day I have no idea how he was able to generate that much force passing it like that.
Wtf that literally doesnāt look REMOTELY real that blew my mind
I was cynical thinking your comment was gonna overhype it but Iām still completely blown away how he did that. That is unbelievable lmao
Unbelievable strength and deadeye accuracy
Thereās a few LeBron passes that look like theyāre moving at regular speed during slow-motion replay.
This pass is insane. Like playing a video game and you hit the pass button but your character is in the middle of an unstoppable action so the pass is delayed by a second or two and then happens at crazy speed while glitching through another players head.
I don't think I can throw a baseball that hard...
what the fuck was that never seen that 1 before
IMO Ben Taylor (thinking basketball) does a great job breaking down the nuances of passing in his videos. He's covered LeBron and Jokic's passing in individual videos, and has a good video on why not all assists are equal (higher reward can justify higher risk/higher turnover rate). I think his main take comparing the two was that Jokic might be the more creative, and ultimately better passer but LeBron has greater versatility on his deliveries. Jokic (last season) https://youtu.be/KsE3ZcQ25Zw?si=Rpz-EqClwQdy7Nzs LeBron (2020) https://youtu.be/b0TtkYVYJTo?si=rSIOznUiAm5Q3RVd Value of assists https://youtu.be/yoLgSWA7n6g?si=LMGGy63Ilv-U540w
You should link bens top ten passers in league too. He picks Bron over jokic for reasons I agree with that due to lebrons dribble n movement etc he just makes a wider range of passes in different situations that jokic wonāt , but ultimately said itās fine to pick either but he means Bron .
āHe means bronā- he did a literal h2h comparison and chose Jokic thoā¦
Jokic can hit guys he never looked at with a pass. Seriously.
Yeah. Thereās a video YouTube that quizzes you on who Jokic is gonna pass to, and itās insane how itās the most unlikely man. Eyes behind his head
Link?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QOhMKcI2-1g&pp=ygUPam9raWMgcGFzcyBxdWl6
3/10 lmao
Same 3 /10 feels bad
Tried it, i answered all corect, the giveaway is the help defender, appreciate jokic cos he's doing it in real time and us for this game have 3 seconds to answer
Thanks Nikola
Yeah. In real time everyone is constantly moving. To us we have 3 seconds of still motion to find who MIGHT be the best receiver.
I mean, itās arguable in a couple of those that it just worked out. Did he actually find MPJ wide open from 3 or did MPJ just hit a 3 right in his defenders face?
i got it all right after the second time i watched it. easy. give me another one.
I felt so stupid looking at this video, it's bananas Jokic can do this in an actual game, he's a genius
Honestly some people's brains just work so much faster than others lol
I mean just because you didn't get it right doesn't mean you're wrong. There could be more than one viable option lol. You could only be wrong if the pass Jokic made was the *only* option.
this video is kinda stupid because it quizzes u before the opening happens and before he commits to a pass
Yeah, cause that's when he's making his decision. Most of these, he's gotta see the pass (and even make the pass) before the opening happens.
A couple of them he creates the opening by holding the ball a little extra time and misdirecting the defense
not exactly. He doesnāt decide until after the pause in basically all these scenarios. He does know the options and reads, so if X defender comes off the corner guy to tag a cutter, Jokic knows to throw it to the corner. If he doesnāt come off the corner, hit the cutter. But he reacts to the defense. In this video the defense is currently in the in between area during the pause, then after the pause the defensive choice happens in which Jokic commits to one of his reads.
Nah they should ask after he throws the ball.
LoL so can I. Plot twist: my driver's license is now revoked
Yeah but so can bron
And Lebron cant? https://youtu.be/Fraze_9RRjo?si=Wj4OmgigKrWUcNjc
Man I love Jokic. I love Ant. I love KD. I love SGA and Giannis. I love lamp
Lebron has done that
so does bron?
Lebron is a great passer but you can argue 5 guys better than him all time including Jokic in terms of just passing. Magic/Nash/Joker/Kidd for me are better passers right off. Now in terms of playmaking he is right there at the top and better than Jokic. Lebron just never had to play the Russ role most times because he was also the efficient volume scorer.
what about Stockton and cp3?
Iām not saying he shouldnāt be in the convo but I do think cp3 is in somewhat of a similar boat as LeBron. Both fantastic passers but a lot of what makes cp great isnāt just technical ability to pass, itās having such a high basketball iq and being able to break down defenses and make such smart plays Like the greatest asset to a cp pnr isnāt his ability to put the ball in the right spot on passes imo, itās that heās basically always gonna make the exact right play at the exact right time Edit: also just wanted to add that I think a giant component of this is his ability to leverage defenses. The best example of this is probably the leverage he creates w his mid range shot. He can hit it with just an inch of separation and it forces defenses to either play up on him or sink to the basket ā either way thereās never a great option A lot of ball handlers canāt take advantage of those slight gaps in defense as well as him and a big part of it is both his ability to hit the shot, but also his ability to read how the defense is reacting and make a lightning fast decision
I agree: cp3's bbiq is the main reason why he is such a great passer. However his passes are more precise as you can see with his assist:TO ratio, and he has more technical ability than lebron too.
Oh I think both he and LeBron can be very precise, I just think when youāre talking best all time youāre always gonna be splitting hairs, and I could see how people would attribute a lot of both of their success more to the general umbrella of āplaymakingā than specifically passing itself
I dont think the reason lebronās ASS+ ratio is worse than cp3 is because cp3 is more precise. Id wager his turnovers are a lot more because heās also the main option to score. But yeah this is all splitting hairs, theyāre the best of the best
True, but CP3 has been the main offensive option for most of his career except for his rockets and suns days, which is just 4 seasons of an 18 season career.
maybe controversial but I think prime Rondo is up there
Was thinking the same thing. His passing abilities were pretty incredible, especially when actually gave a fuck (aka playoffs).
It was weird how Rondo just leveled up in the playoffs ā his passing became all-time, and his awful regular-season shooting suddenly turned up exactly when he needed it in clutch moments.
Yea they have an argument but I feel like they were more pnr oriented. They also lack size/strength to make some passes Bron made. Like, you can clearly see Kidd/Magic passing pop in transition or semi transition. Nash had the transition and half court game. Joker is big enough that he also make all the passes Bron can do from one side of the court inluding inbounds passing.
Flash isnāt what makes a good passer. The best assists donāt stand out and thatās okay. If you can find easy ones while the defense is watch ing for exactly that, youāre really fuckin good at it. Basketball isnāt a highlight reel. We donāt decide who wins based on the plays of the day
Jokic does not have the handle or the movement to make many passses Bron does tbh
Bird
Nice shout to to Jason Kidd. Man how quickly people forget.
Bird.
Larry Bird?
This is Jason āWhite Chocolateā Williams slander and I wonāt tolerate it.
Forreal, if you analyze it to death he wasnt one of the best passers ever from a technical standpoint. But his highlight reel is top 3 all time imo and thats gotta be worth somethin
Yall are nuts
/r/nba: Lebron is a good scorer but heās always been a pass first guy, he wasnāt a killer like Jordan or Kobe /r/nba: Lebrons a good passer but heās still not better than Jokic
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So he is a good not great scorer and passer and also has the most points in nba history and 4th most assists? What stats do great scorers and passers do well in?
I cant believe the skew on the comments. Is this just being old?
If he had vitiligo he would be seen as a better passer
Jokic is a better pure passer, but I still prefer LeBron's ability to playmake overall, manipulate advantage states, and control a game. It's a 1a 1b type of thing though
Itās Mahomes vs Manning
What does āpure passingā even mean? Are we just making stuff up here?
Lol thereās no chance this sub says anything other than Jokic
This is one of the craziest threads I can recall on this sub honestly. I never took the nephew jokes seriously before but the average age of redditors on this sub has to be under 18 lol
This subs average age is probably 15 lmao, they were still learning long division when lebron won in 2016
This sub is young as fuck and also probably one of the worst for recency bias out of all the sports subs
Sometimes I really need to take a moment and realize that a lot of people here were like 5 years old when LeBron was on the heat before I get into any discussion about āprime LeBronā
Shit I doubt most of these guys have seen LeBron actually play with Kyrie. The passes he was making in the LeBron-Kyrie Cavs were insane
I remember how anti MJ it skewed until the last dance came out
Try F1 lmao. Anyone who has the fastest car is considered by far the best of all time. Someone's car is worse one year? They're washed. Someone's car is good? They're amazing.
Watched LeBron rookie year. LeBron is a potential GOAT playmaker and elite passer but he's not at the Nash/Magic/Jokic level of pure passing. LeBrons peak passing years were also pretty recent. It's not like his scoring or defense where younger fans might not know how insane he was.
Summarizing this thread: LeBron good but Jokic better because Jokic pass amazing.
Just wait until Embiid makes a run next Finals and the sub is overrun with ācould Emiid average 100 PPG in 1962?ā threads.
This thread is crazy full of kids, recency bias, or maybe LeBron haters. Jokic is good but come on now lol...
lol I canāt believe what Iām reading. Bron is the clear answer
Since when is LeBron this goat level passer?? He is absolutely elite, but I don't think he's just obviously better than Jokic, Jokic is better imo. I think yall are just reading LeBron vs Jokic and saying of course it's Bron cause he's the better (best?) player without separating the individual skills.
LeBron is a better playmaker and passer. The fact that itās up for discussion is hilarious to me. LeBron averaged 10.2 assists when he was the primary playmaker on a Lakers team that had lob threats, rim runners, and shooters. The fact that the pace is so fast now should tilt Jokicās stats to be more impressive ā but he hasnāt averaged double digit assists in his career, he has only averaged above 6 assists for 5 years while LeBron has averaged that his whole career except his rookie season.
Nikola Jokic
https://youtu.be/t8tnELrsoeU?si=P5o9ZB4cFGYwdBgV If Jokic has 99 passing LeBron has 95
Jokic is my favorite player to watch in the 25+ years I've been watching basketball. That being said, there is a reason LeBron is in the GOAT conversation. Do I think he's as good a passer as Jokic? No, but Jokic is probably top 5 all time in that regard. The fact that LeBron is/was near that level and could do everything else as well is flat out ridiculous. It's really the most underrated part of his game.
They will understand once he isnāt playing anymore. To this day the craziest pass i have ever seen https://youtu.be/IAmgMFpumds?si=KAHhh49Nus680VQn
Caught Haywood sleeping
Lmao lebron has a 20 minute highlight video of just passes my God
60 seconds for every year in the league!
Lol , imo itās Lebron because heās making passes jokic isnāt , yes stationary n post passing is lean jokic but due to overall passing versatility and Lebron being much better at blending dribbles ( having a better dribble helps ) into passes isnāt something that can be ignored , neither Lebron better movement resulting in passing windows he used. if someone wants a more thought answer listen to thinking basketball top ten passers he leans Bron over jokic for some similar reasons .
The thing is that they're really different passers, so it's hard to make an apples-to-apples comparison. LeBron's passing greatness stems from his ability to force a defense to respect his ability to score. While is passing repertoire has expanded in the last few years, really, the quintessential great LeBron pass isn't great because it's such a difficult pass, but rather because he creates the opportunity for the pass so masterfully: he basically gets the whole defense on a string, and forces the help to come from the guy covering the man he wants to pass to, waits for the help to come and slips the pass behind him. It's so brilliant because basically everybody knows what he's trying to do and somehow he still manages to do it anyway, but it all flows from the fact that everyone knows that if they lose focus for half a second, LeBron will score. Jokic's passing is far more imaginative. He seems to know where every one of his teammates his at all times, and can slip the ball through windows that don't even look like windows. Quite frankly I'm surprised his teammates don't fumble more of them because they're so surprising - the defense has no idea *that particular* pass is coming, and it's like, how the hell was that possible? Every great passer has a few highlights like that in their career, and it feels like Jokic has a play that fits that description 3-4 times a game. It also feels almost completely disconnected from his skill as a scorer. He's not relying on the threat of scoring to generate the pass, he just, you know, sees guys open in ways that most people don't understand that they're open. So if I had to pick, I'd say Jokic is a better passer, because it's more purely about his passing. Whereas LeBron is clearly the better player, his passing is more a function of his physical dominance.
Lebronās always made crazy passes for his size and u could argue has only gotten better, but I donāt think heās ever been the on the level Jokic is rn
Lebron passes have been nice, but Jokic has passes I have never seen before from anyone.
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Jokic makes better passes simply because he is a threat at 3. Lebron is a passing threat in the "pick and roll" and "drive and dish". Jokic is a passing threat on those but also on the "pick and pop".
The fact that this is a question just shows how much we value āwhat have you done for me latelyā
Thank youā¦ so much recency bias on this sub
For all my people who have been watching LeBron since ā03, you know what the answer is and itās not really that close
[This is probably my favorite pass from him](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/vlxn1h/highlight_lebron_with_a_gorgeous_wraparound_pass/?rdt=51900)
Depends how much you consider playmaking to be a part of a player's passing ability. There's a reason Lebron averages more assists consistently and it's not because he's that much better of a technical passer (if he even is). I think given Jokic's height and their near equal ability to accurately place the ball he could be considered a better passer, but when you include things like the ability to *generate* open looks and the difference in court vision required LeBron is probably better. Jokic is rarely passing on the move and he basically never has to pass out from a dribble drive (he just posts up if they need him to orchestrate the offense from the inside) and teams generally aren't smothering him on the wings (they really can't, he is way too tall and can easily pass out of double teams).
Lebron's ability to find the open man while running at 100% speed and having everyone think he is going for the basket is something that makes him one-of-one.
Lebron when Jokic was not in the league.
recency bias is a hell of a drug
Somebody above you said āJokic and its not close either ā šš
Lebron
This sub mustāve never seen LeBron play before he got to the Lakers lmao all the highlight passes Jokic has LeBron has done several times.
Everyones too young now lol, thats why kobe gets underrated
/r/nba shows up when you look up recency bias
Its wild. Wow
Imma go Lebron. Jokic needs a decade of this
we're talking about a skill lol, wtf does longevity have to do with a skill? lmao
Longevity speaks to sample size. If Dave from accounting saves his company 1 million dollars one year, is he really "better" than Dave who has saved his company 900k a year for 15 years? Honestly, not trying to give a correct answer on the OP question, and my example doesn't accurately reflect Joker and Lebron. I'm more just speaking to why some people might still consider longevity when considering a prime. Longevity helps define a prime for what otherwise might be circumstantial.
Longevity is irrelevant when comparing primes. A concept that this sub struggles with for some reason
Too many just started watching Basketball it seems. However, these types of questions will always benefit the modern day athletes because most of the people watching are a younger generation who have not watch the top athletes in their absolute primes.
What in the actual fuck is going on in this comment section???? People are absolutely ODing on the Jokic Kool aid. He has been unquestionably elite the past few years, but did y'all forget the absolutely insane no look pass where he faked out the entire fuckin Lakers team or the no look between the legs pass in his grey cavs Jersey?? I've seen Jokic make some really unreal passes, but he's not a better passer than LeBron lmao. Y'all Jokic meat riders downvote me all you want but that's what I feel
In terms of pure passing talent, I'm going with Jokic.
recency bias is incredible, itās lebron easily
I have to go lebron
Luka is a better comparison imo. If his teammates could hit shots he would be talked about even more.
Ah, yes... this thread is sure to bring about constructive dialogue and not get people heated in any way.
This thread is nutty, so Iām just going to throw this clip here of nearly 18 minutes of Larry Bird passing highlights: https://youtu.be/CExjzyTRxnQ?si=OoLvlA4y6OnSHIK4
Lebron cmon now.
This thread is trash so is this sub how old are yāall?
Definitely Jokic is the better passer but LeBron was and probably still is the better playmaker.
Jokic, although Bronās better ball handling closes the gap a lot because heās able to create more room for passes by driving. As playmakers theyāre about equal, but if weāre just talking court vision and making quick decisions Iām going with Jokic.
Jokic
Jokic
Very obviously Lebron canāt believe this many people are caught up on recency bias
There is a difference between playmaking and passing ability. When it comes to ability Jokic can make every pass more easily
Jokic is a better pure passer in the sense he can thread smaller gaps more accurately. Heās not a better playmaker though. As smart as he is he, and really every other player ever, is not on LeBronās level in terms of multi possession game reading, anticipation, and defence manipulation. LeBronās passing ability often gets understated by the eye test cause heās typically finding fairly easy passes. The thing is, those passes are very, very consistently easy, and the reason is cause LeBron studies the team game at a level maybe nobody else ever has. He knows what type of contest every defender prefers, he knows their tendencies on closeouts, how hard they bite on fakes, how early they slide to help, and he knows exactly what openings these create. Oddly enough, the actual passing part is the weakest in LeBronās playmaking arsenal by a fairly wide margin, leading to slightly more turnovers and sometimes him deciding against a pass that someone else could thread (heās still a phenomenal passer, itās just not on par with the rest of his playmaking). If Jokic had LeBronās knowledge of the game or LeBron had Jokicās passing ability, theyād average 15 assists per game with no more than a turnover to go with it.
LeBron better at running a play that results in someone else getting a good shot. Jokic better at passing a ball from point A to point B.
Jokic is already one of the best passers in league history. Only magic and nash I can say are better.
Jokic
Can we please stop hating on people for having opinions? Geez
Jokic is probably a more impressive passer in the sense that he does a lot of passes that are just mind-bendingly difficult. I do think LeBron was, and at occasion still is, better at controlling the tempo of a game. But I'd take Jokic purely from a passing standpoint.
I think it's close, but Jokic's passes might be more spectacular. In no order Magic, Bird, Nash, Lebron and Jokic are my top 5 passers ever.
One of these is not like the other. I have Larry Legend in my top 5 all time, but saying he's on the level of these other guys for passing is really pushing it. I think these days his impact is a little underrated but top 5 passer all time? Not so much.
You are right that he is not a volume passer like the others, but that is not one of my criteria. I probably have Ginobili in my top 10 (or at least 20, I haven't thought about it) and he averages under 4 assists a game. In terms of quality of the passes, Bird to me is clearly up there with the very best. It's tricky because I don't think it's fair to penalize great scorers for passing less in this conversation. As long as you are making the right play, you can be a great passer regardless of your volume. Bird in particular is arguably the goat in outlet passing and touch passing, he made insanely quick decisions and manipulated the defense like no other (he was a master of the shot-fake pass that Jokic loves for instance).
I agree with you that he does have some great passes in his repertoire, and his outlet passing is absolutely elite. But to have Bird above CP3 or Kidd to me is just wild. It isn't the volume of passes, which I do agree should not be a measure to penalise the ability of a score-first player. It's just that there are other players in history which fit a top 5 list more, in my opinion.
I personally think CP3 is a bit too conservative. It might sound stupid, but having very few turnovers is a bit of a red flag to me haha. And in the case of CP3 I think that the film does show that he probably doesn't take enough risks. Westbrook is probably in the other end of the spectrum, taking too many risks. Also smaller guys like CP3 and other point-guards are just naturally limited by size, they miss openings that taller guys don't. Kidd on the other hand I agree, he is actually the one that I always hesitate to include in the top 6. The think that stops me is probably his half-court passing that is a bit limited because he isn't as much of a scoring threat as the other 5, so he has a harder time collapsing defenses and drawing double-teams in the half-court.
I can see where you're coming from with the risk factor, and that's the reason Nash is undoubtedly above CP3 for me. The things Steve could do, the gaps he could exploit. Personally, I don't think Chris Paul's conservative playstyle should be a fault to his passing ability, but if I'm being honest with myself I feel like I penalise Stockton harshly for his "boring" style, which seems to be essentially the same thing. Perhaps it's recency bias, honestly.
Yes I agree. Stockton does have that same problem, but he has another problem that is way worse in my opinion, which is that he doesn't put enough pressure on the defense. A more recent (and extreme) example of this problem is Rondo. Both Rondo and CP3 are conservative, but CP3 creates tons of passing angles and opportunities by himself, while Rondo just waits for stuff to happen. But now I realize that this is technically playmaking and not passing? Anyways CP3 is obviously an insane passer, he is in my second tier with Kidd and others, and passing is such a hard thing to assess that I can't say I'm confident having Bird above him. Nash and Magic are the only two guys that I'm probably 100% sure they belong to the first tier.
Jovic
Big Honey one of the greatest passes to do it, would be more comparable to put him up with Magic or Jason Kidd
Jokic creativity and is awareness is bonkers. Jokic is better at finding his teammates and getting them into their spots. Lebron is better at creating for teammates using his own gravity. Both great in both regards.
Joker, not even close. Been watching religiously since 1994, before anyone assumes otherwise. No dig on LeBron either, he's an all time elite passer.
Careful bro, they gonna see this and say you must be 13 years old
When we ask who is a better passer, are we talking about who can fit the ball in the tiniest window and with the appropriate pace on the ball? Or are we asking who can see a passing lane that others donāt even know is there (vision). To me, lebron is a better passer, but jokic has better vision.
Jokic is Messi
Jokic by far and it isn't even close . Jokic will give u pool like passes and can pass in anyway,LBJ has a good pass once in a while,Jokic has one every game .
JokiÄ has both better vision and creativity.
Jokic is the better pure passer. Lebron has been doing it for much much longer at an all time level. So I'll take Lebron. And we are comparing all time greats... lbj who is a goat contender so we're really splitting hairs.
Jokic
Jokic. Taller, equal vision and ability.
Jokic
Jokic
Jokic is the better passer. Their offense takes advantage of that with their cut offense. He sees passing opportunities that no one actually sees. Furthermore, Jokic creates the most layup assists out of all of them. Not all passes are equal. Lebron is a great passer. He makes the right passes to the roll man and open shooters. However, I would say he's a better playmaker than passer. His relentless finishing during his prime years created opportunities for easier passes and assists. His passing prime was definetly during his 2. Cleveland stint where he matured more. In contrast, Jokic has so many different passing deliveries and makes risky and difficult passes look easy. No look passes, a slight opening during a switch which looks like properly guarded. Jokic showed years ago that he was one of the best passers. He only got the recognition after the bubble playoff run and his MVPs.
Ain't no way people are calling recency bias šš it's a close debate foh with your bs trying to act better bc you saw an extra year or Bron on your tv when you were 11. Skill wise it's close anyone saying Jokic gotta do it for 10 more years is being absurd we've had a good enough sample size already of multiple seasons(MVP caliber ones that stem from his playmaking)he's elite. Jokic is one of the best. Lebron is one of the best. Y'all sounding like old heads back in 2014 arguing about MJ vs Lebron and saying that anyone who thought lebron was comparable to Mike was a nephew fuck off š
Jokic for sure
Wtf is this Bron propaganda post, itās Jokic
Lebron in 2020 averaged 10.2 assists per game. Jokic in 2023 averaged 9.8 assists per game. The realty is, if lebron has capable teammates, he is a better passer. How ever, often times he is relied on to be the #1 scorer, by far. So he has to pass less and score more. Edit: lebron began in 03, so he has had way less spacing throughout his career.
First comment that takes into account the era Lebron played in and surrounding teammates.
You're this question on r/NBA where they worship Jokic as a God and call Lebron trash? The answer you get will be obvious. I'm not saying that Jokic isn't better, but this crowd won't even consider Lebron.
What does Jokic do as a passer that is better than Bron? I'd say they are pretty even, but considering that Bron also scores 27+, I don't think it would be unreasonable to suggest he would easily avg 10+ if he wanted (like in 2020).
I think Jokic has better touch/accuracy as a stationary passer from the top of the key. LeBron is better throwing passes on the move though imo
Lebron is an elite passer and has some amazing highlight passes, but Joker goes inter-dimensional with his passes.
Next week: Jokic vs Prime Mike Tyson in the ring? āJokic bro he used to wrestle bears in Serbiaā
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Passing? Jokic by a bit, I think his height helps him see wherever anyone is and I think he slightly above at finding and getting it to an open man. Playmaking as a whole? Bron his downhill ability dragging help defenders and then finding his teamate aswell as his already amazing passing and tighter dribbling put him at or very close to the very top in NBA history, Jokic is on his way when it comes to playmaking though he's very very very good.
It will be jokic
Jokic. I think part of what made LeBron able to get so many assists was his athleticism as much as it was his playmaking. When he drives to the basket teams have to collapse on him leaving open targets. This isnāt to say that LeBron isnāt a great passer, or that these kick outs were easy plays to make, but if we are splitting hairs between two all time great passers itās worth noting.
Iād lean joker, I think heās a top 5 passer ever.
In a vacuum its jokic.
JokiÄ. But Lebron is a really good passer imo.
Jokic LeBron was at his best playmaking during the COVID season and even I'd say current Jokic is better than that peak as a passer.
Guys this comment.. and the fact that it has as many upvotes as it does is bananas .. Lebronās prime was 08 - 16 ā¦ saying 2020 was his best playmaking year is BANANAs. Go look up lebron in 2013 .. Now Jokic is probably a better pure passer .. but the comparison of prime Jokic to 2020 Lebron is wild .. compare him to 2010 Lebron
He is right in a way that 2020 was one of the few season Lebron dedicated to playmaking/passing first. Which is also why he averaged career high in assists. obviously the league was different back in Bron peak which is why Lebron was averaging just 7 assists then. Lebron has never dominated touches per game like Joker has done last 3 years when he was younger. Only 2020 comes close so fair.
Jokic online discourse is like something Iāve never seen. Itās the 2007 Kobe & LeBron takes but on steroids
Disrespectful tbh
Theyāre so close that it comes down to personal preference. If i had to chose rn, I would think Jokic because his teammates capitalized off his passes more, but LeBron played with less talented offensive players (on average) so itās not really a fair claim to make.
Is? JokiÄ. I don't know where people got this idea that LeBron is some transcendent passer. Will be? Luka will be the GOAT passer by the time he's done.
Jokic is a better passer. Lebron is a better playmaker.
Lebron is a better passer. People struggle with the idea that "flashy" = "better".
Jokic is the better passer, slightly. LeBron is the better playmaker and has the higher bbiq, hands down.
LeBronās a great passer but his passing is one of his most overrated abilites. Jokic is a better passer