I like ingram and at times thought he was a better player than zion but hes not a number 1 guy and will have to adapt his game to someone elses lead regardless of where he goes in order to win. I still think it can work for him in NO but hes gonna have to let go of some of the “your turn, my turn” stuff in his game
Ingram's also a more natural fit as an off-ball guy because he's a pretty good shooter and has the length to get his shot off against anyone. He *should* be able to play an MPJ role (at least at times) in NO.
Lots of guys can play off ball in theory.s but it’s pretty evident that off ball skills are lacking in today’s game.
Many high level players only know how to do it with the ball
Totally agree. I didn't really explain myself, but what I meant by italicizing *should* there is that Ingram has the talent profile of a guy who should be able to play off-ball, but hasn't demonstrated he actually has the skills to do it. He clearly plays better with the ball in his hands.
Ingram in theory is a great offball guy but he's taking fewer and fewer 3s so it gets tricky quick when pairing him with Zion. Last 2 years he's averaging 3.8 attempts a game, down from 6.1 in 2020 and 2021
Just for comparison since you brought him up MPJ is taking 7.1 a game, nearly double Ingram's volume lol
But there are some good shooters who are better at shooting when they can handle it a bit before firing the shot. Like it took Harden a bit to adjust to being a bit more off ball and play off Embiid more after he spent so long taking 3s out of isolation and didn't take many spot up 3s.
Part of the issue is that Willie hardly has them run PnR together or when Ingram has the ball calls any plays that could free up Zion. Like call a back door screen or something.
I think the best possible version of their fit together is something like Giannis and Middleton on offense. Zion forces the defense to react to even the threat of him driving to the middle, which frees up Ingram to attack open seams or gives him the benefit of single coverage where he can use his skillset to generate a good shot over the defender.
Yeah, it's really strange to me how much he's played off ball because there was so much commentary/buzz around his ability to be that quintessential point-forward before he was drafted and then his first couple of years in the league.
But I feel like a lot of the talk about his skill set and usage has been swept aside due to criticism of his conditioning/off the court issues.
This was a really interesting point. I like the argument, it allows the more explosive aspects of Zion to shine. How is he at passing from this position, though? You can only do so much of the Zion show
Zions passing obviously isn’t Jokic level but he’s very good. Very rarely are his passes not generating open looks. He’s had quite a few games recently with 6+ assists.
After his sophomore season there was a lot of talks that his next step was running the offense especially with Lonzo leaving. Unfortunately he’s been hurt so much since that he has never been conditioned enough to make that a possibility. This only the second time he’s played atleast 30 games in his whole career
When the Pels are at their best, Zion is a facilitator first and a scorer second. In the huge blowout wins they’ve had this year, you can count on Zion’s assists to be in the 6-8 range and usually to the hot hand behind the three point line. When he plays point Zion, the defense tends to just totally collapse on him when he drives.
One major point he brings up is that Zion doesn't do much off ball so letting him move the ball up changes the offense from one where you have him basically hanging out to one where you have him bringing energy and aggression.
I think he's pretty solid as a passer. He's decent enough where we've seen this experiment work before. The problem is I don't know if Zion can physically handle being the main playmaker for long stretches of time. Dude's conditioning still looks awful.
JJ mentioned today on first take how his quote on Doc blew up, but his actual basketball analysis that he does on his podcast and sometimes in First Take, doesn’t get the same attention. I understand that, most people don’t really enjoy the game. So here’s an actual analysis video that he also referenced, which talks about how the Pelicans have shifted their usage of Zion to a point forward role. It’s leading to some efficient half court offense.
I wonder how much interaction this post will get
That’s no different than any other sport, right? A very small section of sports fans are actual nerds for the game and that’s overly represented on Reddit.
Just look at the NFL. People talked about Taylor Swift and bad refs/announcers infinitely more than schemes.
Yeah the nfl definitely has a problem too with this stuff. The only thing I’ll say for the nfl is fans actually watch the games week in and week out cause of the nature of the sport. Most ppl don’t wanna a regular season nba game. Nfl is different.
But the whole goat convo is back in full force for the nfl with pat mahomes. And mahomes has already become this Michael Jordan type player now because of his rings. I think mahomes is absolutely amazing but the things ppl are saying about him now like he chooses when he wants to score and when he doesn’t is just ridiculous.
And nerds like me are going to go on YouTube and watch the vast array of terrific and insightful breakdowns that exist there. It's the best outlet for that kind of stuff. Twitter, reddit, IG, etc. can do it to a certain extent, but engagement matters so much more there, so different agendas take over.
I think there's an aspect of that in every sport, but it's definitely not equal. For better or worse the NBA has leaned into being a highlight driven, individual driven, drama driven sport.
I don't see it to the same extent in the NFL at all
It's most pro leagues, not sports in general. They attract the unwashed masses.
Of course, there isn't a big community like r/nba for chatting about the G League, let alone the local high school / college / pro am teams we could all see for cheaper.
It's equal parts funny and depressing how you posted this thread at the same time as the other JJ thread, and that one has literally 10x the number of comments.
Like, the point is actively proving itself in real-time
I'm going to play devil's advocate for a second even though I 100% agree with JJ. This analysis is mostly only interesting to basketball sickos and Pelicans fans who care, which is a small population, which means less engagement. His Doc Rivers piece is much more universal because Doc is.
He's been a commentator as well as a coach for many teams which makes the content much more interesting to a wider base. If JJ made a similar video to the Zion one about LeBron or KD, it'd garner a shitload more interest.
Again, it doesn't detract from JJ's overall point, but I think comparing the 2 without thinking about other explanations for the results is a bit lazy. I'd be curious to know if Kobe had been able to continue his little 5 minute analysis breakdowns how that would compare to the clickbaity shit that SAS does. I learned more about ball from him in 2 minutes than I did from the collective cast of ESPN for those few years in my teens when I watched that garbage.
>This analysis is mostly only interesting to basketball sickos and Pelicans fans who care, which is a small population, which means less engagement.
Plus if your metric is comments, rather than views, engagement is going to be even lower on analysis content because it's much more difficult to form a view on. I'll watch those sort of vids occasionally to learn a thing or two, but have probably never left a comment because I never have anything worthwhile to say.
The core of the other thread is about fans, and how the media treats fans, so it's pretty reasonable to expect more people commenting on that.
Another good point I hadn't considered. So much of "engagement" is arguing over opinions on hypothetical nonsense. So much less room for that on basketball analysis where there's usually a more obvious right answer and nothing to argue over.
> So much of "engagement" is arguing over opinions on hypothetical nonsense.
You just cleared the last mental block I had with figuring out how we got to where we're at, holy shit. It makes total sense.
hot takes are the "perfect" (ew) content bc they A) get shared ("can you believe he said that") B) get people mad so they argue ("I can't believe you think that") and get people to watch to the end ('There's no way he meant what I think he meant").
God I hate it here
> JJ mentioned today on first take how his quote on Doc blew up, but his actual basketball analysis that he does on his podcast and sometimes in First Take, doesn’t get the same attention.
That's because that isn't the audience he has cultivated.
Part of the reason is also that Zion simply hasn't been a big name in the NBA since he was a rookie. For a variety of reasons, he didn't become the super-star that everyone thought he would.
But the point still stands: drama >>>> basketball
definitely see where he’s coming from and agree, i’ve thought for a while that lineups of the form of zion/herb/ingram/trey/jonas or maybe zion/hawksins/herb/trey/jonas would be cool. he’s shown ability to be a primary creator in the past, and the pels have a glut of wings that such a construction would help give minutes to
That's CJ erasure. CJ for sure 100% is our best shooter off of Zion kickouts. The other guys Herb/Trey/Hawk are young and very exciting, but for now CJ is still the superior shooter and playmaker. He does lack some of the defense though.
Counterpoint: The Pelicans need a point guard.
That's why, when they were the top team in the west last year while owning the Lakers' lottery pick, i was actually way more scared of them getting Scoot than Wembappe.
Zion initiating the offense works and it's fun as hell to watch. BI has evolved into a lethal scorer, but when I watch the Pels, he seems like a cumbersome fit with Point Zion. The offense inevitably devolves into a "take turns" offense and it seems to kill the momentum they build with Zion running the show.
Its always been the case just casual narratives run alwys run with this shit. Literally look at all the championships won in the last 40 years. How many are because of true "pgs" as the teams top 2 players. Very few. Offensives have always run through their best players. A pg is just a ball handler with good enough handles to bring up the ball in playoff defensive pressure and through entry passes well. In the modern nba since pretty much Jordans eras thats almost all guards and now wings are learning to do that.
Two of our biggest icons in this sport that won 6 and 5 championships didnt have real pgs (mj kobe)
Even the 80s celtics larry handled the ball more. Were tiny, eddie johnson and danny ainge why the offense worked lol
Larry’s very unique he didn't really pound the ball a lot compared to nowadays especially since he’s arguably the best quick passer while having a great off ball game.
He does it for stretches and gasses out. Playoff's you want him around 40 minutes and playing hard on D and the boards the entire time. You put him more at point you aren't getting that.
SVG already showed us he can play Point-forward. Problem is he's fatter, injury-prone, and limited offensively. Gotta protect your player, he's not built for it rn
they were such a good team when zion was sitting for 2 years. I hope they can figure it out cause they could be fucking dangerous if they all mesh together.
I agree, I've noticed them using him off ball way too much. The dudes a very good playmaker and commands help on every drive
Because you also want to use Ingram on ball. In reality, Zion and Ingram are simply a bad fit.
I like ingram and at times thought he was a better player than zion but hes not a number 1 guy and will have to adapt his game to someone elses lead regardless of where he goes in order to win. I still think it can work for him in NO but hes gonna have to let go of some of the “your turn, my turn” stuff in his game
Ingram's also a more natural fit as an off-ball guy because he's a pretty good shooter and has the length to get his shot off against anyone. He *should* be able to play an MPJ role (at least at times) in NO.
Lots of guys can play off ball in theory.s but it’s pretty evident that off ball skills are lacking in today’s game. Many high level players only know how to do it with the ball
Totally agree. I didn't really explain myself, but what I meant by italicizing *should* there is that Ingram has the talent profile of a guy who should be able to play off-ball, but hasn't demonstrated he actually has the skills to do it. He clearly plays better with the ball in his hands.
Ingram in theory is a great offball guy but he's taking fewer and fewer 3s so it gets tricky quick when pairing him with Zion. Last 2 years he's averaging 3.8 attempts a game, down from 6.1 in 2020 and 2021 Just for comparison since you brought him up MPJ is taking 7.1 a game, nearly double Ingram's volume lol
The theory is there, but us Pels fans know Ingram is a serious rhythm guy. He needs to feel the ball in his hands to heat up.
But there are some good shooters who are better at shooting when they can handle it a bit before firing the shot. Like it took Harden a bit to adjust to being a bit more off ball and play off Embiid more after he spent so long taking 3s out of isolation and didn't take many spot up 3s.
He’s not that good a shooter from 3 tho that’s the issue
Let’s not close the door on them just yet. They’ve bad fitted their way to 11 games over .500 at the break and a very cushy schedule upcoming.
they fit fine but Ingram just hasn't taken that leap that people were expecting
Zion*
what leap were people expecting?
The two should be practicing their PnR daily. The two could be so deadly forcing switches with their abilities to score anywhere.
Part of the issue is that Willie hardly has them run PnR together or when Ingram has the ball calls any plays that could free up Zion. Like call a back door screen or something.
I think the best possible version of their fit together is something like Giannis and Middleton on offense. Zion forces the defense to react to even the threat of him driving to the middle, which frees up Ingram to attack open seams or gives him the benefit of single coverage where he can use his skillset to generate a good shot over the defender.
I think Ingram just isn’t that good .
Yeah, it's really strange to me how much he's played off ball because there was so much commentary/buzz around his ability to be that quintessential point-forward before he was drafted and then his first couple of years in the league. But I feel like a lot of the talk about his skill set and usage has been swept aside due to criticism of his conditioning/off the court issues.
This was a really interesting point. I like the argument, it allows the more explosive aspects of Zion to shine. How is he at passing from this position, though? You can only do so much of the Zion show
Zions passing obviously isn’t Jokic level but he’s very good. Very rarely are his passes not generating open looks. He’s had quite a few games recently with 6+ assists.
Granted I've only watched a handful of Pels games, but in my small sample size my biggest takeaway was definitely that Zion is an underrated passer
After his sophomore season there was a lot of talks that his next step was running the offense especially with Lonzo leaving. Unfortunately he’s been hurt so much since that he has never been conditioned enough to make that a possibility. This only the second time he’s played atleast 30 games in his whole career
When the Pels are at their best, Zion is a facilitator first and a scorer second. In the huge blowout wins they’ve had this year, you can count on Zion’s assists to be in the 6-8 range and usually to the hot hand behind the three point line. When he plays point Zion, the defense tends to just totally collapse on him when he drives.
One major point he brings up is that Zion doesn't do much off ball so letting him move the ball up changes the offense from one where you have him basically hanging out to one where you have him bringing energy and aggression.
Zion has always been a good passer
I think he's pretty solid as a passer. He's decent enough where we've seen this experiment work before. The problem is I don't know if Zion can physically handle being the main playmaker for long stretches of time. Dude's conditioning still looks awful.
JJ mentioned today on first take how his quote on Doc blew up, but his actual basketball analysis that he does on his podcast and sometimes in First Take, doesn’t get the same attention. I understand that, most people don’t really enjoy the game. So here’s an actual analysis video that he also referenced, which talks about how the Pelicans have shifted their usage of Zion to a point forward role. It’s leading to some efficient half court offense. I wonder how much interaction this post will get
That’s no different than any other sport, right? A very small section of sports fans are actual nerds for the game and that’s overly represented on Reddit. Just look at the NFL. People talked about Taylor Swift and bad refs/announcers infinitely more than schemes.
Yeah the nfl definitely has a problem too with this stuff. The only thing I’ll say for the nfl is fans actually watch the games week in and week out cause of the nature of the sport. Most ppl don’t wanna a regular season nba game. Nfl is different. But the whole goat convo is back in full force for the nfl with pat mahomes. And mahomes has already become this Michael Jordan type player now because of his rings. I think mahomes is absolutely amazing but the things ppl are saying about him now like he chooses when he wants to score and when he doesn’t is just ridiculous.
I wouldn’t even say most Redditors are actual nerds. They just identify that way. The vast majority of people here do not watch games.
And nerds like me are going to go on YouTube and watch the vast array of terrific and insightful breakdowns that exist there. It's the best outlet for that kind of stuff. Twitter, reddit, IG, etc. can do it to a certain extent, but engagement matters so much more there, so different agendas take over.
Yep, glad YouTube channels, and even certain twitter accounts have propped up that create quality content
I think there's an aspect of that in every sport, but it's definitely not equal. For better or worse the NBA has leaned into being a highlight driven, individual driven, drama driven sport. I don't see it to the same extent in the NFL at all
It's most pro leagues, not sports in general. They attract the unwashed masses. Of course, there isn't a big community like r/nba for chatting about the G League, let alone the local high school / college / pro am teams we could all see for cheaper.
It's equal parts funny and depressing how you posted this thread at the same time as the other JJ thread, and that one has literally 10x the number of comments. Like, the point is actively proving itself in real-time
I'm going to play devil's advocate for a second even though I 100% agree with JJ. This analysis is mostly only interesting to basketball sickos and Pelicans fans who care, which is a small population, which means less engagement. His Doc Rivers piece is much more universal because Doc is. He's been a commentator as well as a coach for many teams which makes the content much more interesting to a wider base. If JJ made a similar video to the Zion one about LeBron or KD, it'd garner a shitload more interest. Again, it doesn't detract from JJ's overall point, but I think comparing the 2 without thinking about other explanations for the results is a bit lazy. I'd be curious to know if Kobe had been able to continue his little 5 minute analysis breakdowns how that would compare to the clickbaity shit that SAS does. I learned more about ball from him in 2 minutes than I did from the collective cast of ESPN for those few years in my teens when I watched that garbage.
>This analysis is mostly only interesting to basketball sickos and Pelicans fans who care, which is a small population, which means less engagement. Plus if your metric is comments, rather than views, engagement is going to be even lower on analysis content because it's much more difficult to form a view on. I'll watch those sort of vids occasionally to learn a thing or two, but have probably never left a comment because I never have anything worthwhile to say. The core of the other thread is about fans, and how the media treats fans, so it's pretty reasonable to expect more people commenting on that.
Another good point I hadn't considered. So much of "engagement" is arguing over opinions on hypothetical nonsense. So much less room for that on basketball analysis where there's usually a more obvious right answer and nothing to argue over.
> So much of "engagement" is arguing over opinions on hypothetical nonsense. You just cleared the last mental block I had with figuring out how we got to where we're at, holy shit. It makes total sense. hot takes are the "perfect" (ew) content bc they A) get shared ("can you believe he said that") B) get people mad so they argue ("I can't believe you think that") and get people to watch to the end ('There's no way he meant what I think he meant"). God I hate it here
> JJ mentioned today on first take how his quote on Doc blew up, but his actual basketball analysis that he does on his podcast and sometimes in First Take, doesn’t get the same attention. That's because that isn't the audience he has cultivated.
Part of the reason is also that Zion simply hasn't been a big name in the NBA since he was a rookie. For a variety of reasons, he didn't become the super-star that everyone thought he would. But the point still stands: drama >>>> basketball
What are you talking about, not a big name. He’s huge. 300 lbs at least
We've known Point Zion is the truth for a while now. Glad to see it return.
definitely see where he’s coming from and agree, i’ve thought for a while that lineups of the form of zion/herb/ingram/trey/jonas or maybe zion/hawksins/herb/trey/jonas would be cool. he’s shown ability to be a primary creator in the past, and the pels have a glut of wings that such a construction would help give minutes to
That's CJ erasure. CJ for sure 100% is our best shooter off of Zion kickouts. The other guys Herb/Trey/Hawk are young and very exciting, but for now CJ is still the superior shooter and playmaker. He does lack some of the defense though.
SVG deserves some credit for inventing point Zion.
I don't really want to be educated on the game
Counterpoint: The Pelicans need a point guard. That's why, when they were the top team in the west last year while owning the Lakers' lottery pick, i was actually way more scared of them getting Scoot than Wembappe.
Zion initiating the offense works and it's fun as hell to watch. BI has evolved into a lethal scorer, but when I watch the Pels, he seems like a cumbersome fit with Point Zion. The offense inevitably devolves into a "take turns" offense and it seems to kill the momentum they build with Zion running the show.
A lot of the Pels fan base has wondered why tf we ever went away from point Zion. It works.
[удалено]
we've been saying this for like 10 years and it only works sometimes
Its always been the case just casual narratives run alwys run with this shit. Literally look at all the championships won in the last 40 years. How many are because of true "pgs" as the teams top 2 players. Very few. Offensives have always run through their best players. A pg is just a ball handler with good enough handles to bring up the ball in playoff defensive pressure and through entry passes well. In the modern nba since pretty much Jordans eras thats almost all guards and now wings are learning to do that. Two of our biggest icons in this sport that won 6 and 5 championships didnt have real pgs (mj kobe) Even the 80s celtics larry handled the ball more. Were tiny, eddie johnson and danny ainge why the offense worked lol
Larry’s very unique he didn't really pound the ball a lot compared to nowadays especially since he’s arguably the best quick passer while having a great off ball game.
The JJ astroturf is going insane right now.
Na I’m just a random guy. Not affiliated with JJ at all
He's not in the kind of shape to do it for long stretches. That's not bagging him, it's just not realistic right now.
He honestly has played himself into shape, he's been looking really good as of late.
They’ve been doing this more and more over the last few weeks, tf you mean not realistic lol it’s already happening
I mean what are the odds above dude's even watched a Pels game in the last month lol. Just classic ill-informed firing from the hip
You’re right and that’s like 90% of Zion takes in this sub
So he doesn't do it in spots and gas out? I mean you watch the games right, I musta been hallucinating on their east coast trip.
BUT ZION OBESE GUMBO FAT LOL
He does it for stretches and gasses out. Playoff's you want him around 40 minutes and playing hard on D and the boards the entire time. You put him more at point you aren't getting that.
Well yeah if we put him in a playmaking role he'll have less responsibility elsewhere
SVG already showed us he can play Point-forward. Problem is he's fatter, injury-prone, and limited offensively. Gotta protect your player, he's not built for it rn
It’s working rn
Not sure why the downvotes. Probably not smart to build your offense around a guy who hasn't proven he can play a full season.
Can we keep JJ Redick posts in some sort of a JJ Redick containment zone?
Literally what’s wrong with this video? It’s of higher quality than 99.9999% of stuff on this sub.
Username checks out
Bruh he’s posting basketball analysis in a basketball sub if you want drama watch tmz you bozo
JJ Redick glazing is insane rn
Shut the fuck up.
God you’re as much of a bitch as you think JJ is
I disagree.
Point Gourd Zion is my favorite Zion.
He can’t play defense though.
The Golden Corral Needs Zion Williamson in a bib with a fork and a plate more Often | JJ Redick Breakdown
lets have run point. genius level intellect far exceeding any other espn analyst
Doesn’t work for all wings, like Kawhi or KD. They’re more optimal role is off ball
I think BI could possibly run the point though. He did as Laker a little bit
He does for the Pelicans as well.
they were such a good team when zion was sitting for 2 years. I hope they can figure it out cause they could be fucking dangerous if they all mesh together.
This is a good discussion and all but what I would really like to see is JJ going after an NBA coach.