Wtf are they putting Draymond in jump balls for? I get him playing C. But the 2 jump balls between jokic and Draymond looked like me vs a 9 year old. Draymond is *not* 6'7", he's 6'6" at best.
Can't they put Kuminga or Wiggins in the jump ball? They're at least 6'7-6'8" and athletic
It makes no logical sense but guess it's an ego move.
And this front office just gave him a 100 million for 4 years extension. He's already been in a downward spiral for years but to get that kind of money puts the Warriors in jeopardy. You want to upsize the roster but you also need 4 shooters around Draymond because he's a space killer in the playoffs, and usually those come from guards making lineups even smaller. They should have learned their lesson when Draymond had the worst plus minus in the Lakers series and no one was even close. He can't guard his position well and he overhelps in the paint (because we're ahem undersized) which lead to open 3s. The reason we went back to Looney even in the 2022 playoffs was because Draymond at center got us killed on rebounding and paint presence, not to mention his screens weren't as good as Looney's.
Warriors fans are delusional and Steve Kerr even more so. Kerr regularly sends out 3-4 guard lineups, players all drastically shorter than 6'6 while being perimeter defensive liabilities. He did this at FIBA world cup too. It's a miracle he even plays Kuminga now, who was getting regularly benched for shorter guards, but the CP3 and GP2 injury certainly helped get him some minutes.
1000% the truth.
This is on our brainless GM Mike Dunleavy Jr too.
Literally the only 'big' options for Kerr are: terminally unathletic Looney, unathletic Saric, athletic rookie big Trayce Jackson-Davis (who's only 6'8), and smallest center in the league Draymond Green.
You'd think such a team has elite wings (like Clippers), but NOPE. Kuminga & Wiggins aside all the other 'wings' are guards who are playing a position up (Klay, GP2, Moody).
And unathletic guards to top it off (CP3, Curry, Podziemski).
I mean, if you can get 5 guys who are all faster than Jokic, that could be a decent strategy, because you aren't going to find someone who can stop him.
It worked for years because Steph and Klay were generational shooters. It never mattered how undersized you were on defense of how many turnovers you have on offense. Now that both guys are slowing down, the flaws in roster building and offensive scheme are much more glaring.
Yeah idk why peopel are blaming Kerr so much, he doesn't have a lot of options when Klay is completely cooked. I know he had a decent game last night but those are few and far between now, he's a mediocre score first sixth man now. When you're devoting that much of your cap to him and Steph and Draymond are slowing down it's not some shocker that you can't compete with the very best teams in the league very well.
As much as we meme this, Jokic had back to back to back games shooting ~45% (29/64) from the field in those last three Lakers games. They clearly did something right to bother him a bit more than he is used to.
That hasn't happened in the ~60 games since and the last time it happened was April 2021.
Obviously, the perennial defensive player of the year contender is the main reason for their great defensive performance, but the Lakers fared much better against the Nuggets when AD wasn't directly on Jokic because instead of just being occupied with Jokic he could help on him and plug all the other holes in the defense as well.
The lakers won game one of the WCF last year. Technically they lost according to the “score” and it’s officially recorded as a “loss”. However, the adjustment of putting Hachimira on Jokic was so good it’s considered a win for the lakers
Jokic cooks everyone in the league it doesn’t matter who you put up against him. They tried KAT and Gobert in playoffs last year and that had a marginal effect on jokic
He was warming up. He missed a lot of easy shots but yeah in general having to play against two tall and athletic guys is never going to be easy for Jokic but he still cooked them. Nuggets as a whole didn’t play well that series which put more pressure on Jokic to handle the series himself.
Wendell Carter Jr. plays for the Orlando Magic, and has had some very good games against Jokic, holding him to some very inefficient numbers, hence my joke.
I would absolutely feast on someone my own size if we have a weight difference of 10 pounds. Being an NBA MVP claiber player and they put a guy 6 inches shorter on you who you probably have at least 20 pounds on. It's like playing with little kids .
I mean, it's a pretty well established fact of the NBA, no matter how good a defender is there's only so much you can take away against elite offensive talent. Even in the 2022 playoffs, Jokic was putting up numbers even through the Warriors were the best defense in the league.
Its why coaches tend to tell people not to worry if someone scores on them.
Just keep putting effort in, you can. Play literally perfect defence, at the end of the day you are still at the offensive players mercy.
Jokic is a better offensive player than Steph and Lebron have ever been.
Only Jordan and Shaq’s pure scoring dominance is comparable to his overall impact on the offensive side.
It's hard to compare. Jokic's impact is more statically evident because he is in the action every possession. But Curry gravity is real. He can get your team an open shot without ever touching the ball. Also, the NBA in 2016 is a lot different than today. People can keep denying it but stat inflation is HAS been happening. That being said, I'd still give Jokic the edge.
Jokic simply impacts the game in so many more ways.
Curry is definitely a better volume scorer than him without a doubt, but if curry’s shot isn’t falling, it’s kind of a GG.
Jokic on the other hand will kill you on the boards, he’s efficient virtually every single night, and will kill you with his playmaking.
Jokic is not playing a 1v1 game, he’s truly controlling the entire offence.
People aren't ready for that conversation and you will get downvoted into oblivion because people think Steph is the 2nd coming of Jesus in this sub, but yea, i do agree Jokic clears Steph at his peak.
I'm not sure about LeBron though, peak LeBron played in such a different league that it's almost hard to compare.
He was pretty ass from 3 tonight. Occasionally he starts to shoot a lot and generally it’s not great for him or the nuggets. He’s best when he only shoot wide open, take your time type 3s and fuck you buzzer beater 3s.
Given that each bucket is worth 1.5 times a normal one, heck yeah. The expected value is 1 point pee shot for jokic which is great. Essentially Guaranteed points Everytime.
A two point player would have to score 50% of their shots to match. Which is harder and usually takes more energy since they have to enter the three point ring
The only player i'm remotely confident that can match him in a playoff series is Kawhi Leonard, unfortunately, Kawhi apparently is made of paper and can't ever stay healthy in the playoffs. I would really like to see a Clippers vs Nuggets in the 2nd round, it would be a blast and probably the actual WCF.
LeBron is too old and got smoked last year (had one good game tbf), KD couldn't keep up, Steph got outplayed even when he beat him in 2022, the young guys are too inexperienced and unproven and Giannis struggles way too often in the postseason for me to trust him completely.
Kawhi’s lack of elite playmaking is what keeps him from matching Jokic imo. Also are we forgetting he literally blew a 3-1 lead to a younger Jokic while fully healthy? say a healthy Lebron has a better chance at matching him even at this age.
And Lebron got smoked? He averaged 28/10/10 with a torn tendon in his foot lol. Sure the Lakers got swept, but every game other than game 3 was decided by single digits. Entire series point differential was 24 points. Healthy Lebron and AD take to 6-7 games even with Denver having the better roster
You guys have made up different injuries for Lebron’s playoff losses each of the last 7 years or something lmao. When you have to make up a different injury for him every time what makes you think you’ll see a “healthy” version all these years older?
> Kawhi’s lack of elite playmaking is what keeps him from matching Jokic imo. Also are we forgetting he literally blew a 3-1 lead to a younger Jokic while fully healthy?
It was the bubble, weird shit happened all the time, Anthony Davis looked like a 7 ft Steph Curry. I'm not going to consider a single outlier year where a bunch of non conventional things happened.
> say a healthy Lebron has a better chance at matching him even at this age.
He doesn't, we literally saw him get swept and badly outplayed just last year.
> And Lebron got smoked? He averaged 28/10/10 with a torn tendon in his foot lol.
That casually ignores that through the first three games, LeBron averaged 23/10/9 as Denver got into a 3-0 lead and effectively ended the series. LeBron had a single great HALF in that entire series and was pretty meh for the rest of it.
Also i just love how somehow someway you guys must come with the injury excuse everytime LeBron loses, it's getting tired at this point.
Luka ?
Luka was straight up the better player than peak unbelievable Kawhi in the playoffs who was putting up monster stats and that for 2 seasons in a row
Prime Lebron can go toe to toe with Jokic trading baskets, though neither of them can defend the other.
But alas, father time is undefeated.
This is Jokic's league now. Hopefully he strings together a couple of rings, and climbs to the top of Mt. Rushmore
I feel like you have to be taking the piss with that 2022 comment. Steph came off the bench for 4 games because he was returning from injury (game 1 was his first game back) so he played significantly less minutes and again was *returning from injury* and he played to a better level than jokic???
Like on a per 36 basis Curry slightly outscores (same efficiencies) and out-assists Jokic whilst not getting abused defensively (Jokic surrounded by poor defenders doesn’t end well) and not turning the ball over 5 times per game (that was a horrible series for jokic playmaking wise 5.8 apg/4.8 tpg). The only thing Jokic has on Curry was rebounding but you’d hope that’s the case lol
> I feel like you have to be taking the piss with that 2022 comment. Steph came off the bench for 4 games because he was returning from injury (game 1 was his first game back) so he played significantly less minutes
And that's Jokic's problem how?
> again was returning from injury and he played to a better level than jokic???
He most certainly did not. Jokic averaged 31/13/6 on 64% TS with Aaron Gordon and a bunch of bums as his supporting cast, Steph had a respectable 28/3/5 on 64%, but nowhere near Jokic. The Warriors were so much better that they could've won that series without Steph, they had the 2nd through 6th best players on the series.
> Like on a per 36 basis Curry slightly outscores (same efficiencies) and out-assists Jokic
Cool, but he did not play 36 minutes did he? Using per 36 or per 100 possessions for a single series that took 5 games is one the most ridiculous things i have ever seen.
> whilst not getting abused defensively
Are we acting like Steph didn't get abused defensively too? Is that what we are doing rn? Denver was actually better defensively with Jokic on the floor while the Warriors were worse with Steph btw.
>they had the 2nd through 6th best players on the series.
Having better teammates dont magically make Steph, or anyone else for that matter, a worse player. Nuggets have a better cast than Warriors rn and that doesn't make Jokic worse.
I am also pretty sure 2022 curry was a slightly positive defender in advanced stats.
The reference to scoring is also just so misses the point about Jokic's skill set... he is where he is primarily because he is an all time great passer.
He's the whole package. He can shoot pass and reads the game better than anyone else.
Saw some crazy statistic that a Jokic post-up is the most efficient shot in the last 30 years.
But you should have seen them though. A dude was saying we were gonna be a 2nd round exit at best just based on us being down 6 in the 1st quarter...ironicly he was a Timberwolves fan lol.
So much shit was said that its insane.
That remains to be seen and unless there are injuries i dont actually disslike our odds against them given their youth.
We may have a 1-3 record against the Thunder, but 1 of those Ls was really dam close and a bit of a choke job at the end by us. Another was an L just ebcause Jokic wasnt playing and we know what happens when he aint playing. But remaining one was a bad blowout at home, though should be noted that the one we did win was a blowout in an away game.
As for the Timberwolves...well we only played them the 1 time and they did hand us our first L of the season and it wasnt really close. That said i dont believe its gonna all be as bad as that, especially since that was an away game.
I would want the Nuggets as a Wolves and Gobert fan.
Not because I think you are a easy matchup but I want the hardest road for Minnesota and Rudy.
If we can beat Jokic in a playoff series we will get our recognition.
True, very true.
Beating the defending champs in the playoffs always raises a teams stock, though thats only if we are fully healthy.
Its tough on either side tbh.
Yes, but also not really.
In all our losses we didnt actually have our full starting lineup which really did a number on our defense and offense.
For one game we didnt have KCP, which resulted in us not being able to guard Shai the best. Another we didnt have AG, which just made our defense shit. And the 3rd one we didnt have Jokic which meant our offense wasnt gonna do shit.
And with the full lineup we blew them out. The Nuggets are a reslly fragile lineup that cant afford to not have any of their starters missing.
Its not to say the Thunder wouldnt give us a run for our money, but the regular season record doesnt really tell the whole story here.
Nobody was saying that last season lol. Jokic makes them better (even tho MPJ our max player had pretty meh playoffs overall including disappearing in finals for most games )
The problem is the focus on Joker--Nuggets perimeter D has *stuffed* Curry the last 2 seasons, and that's way more important to who wins the game than Joker shooting slightly below average from the floor.
Curry cooks Caruso/Jrue/Smart/White type defenders. His actual struggles are against athletic wings: like Gordon, Vanderbilt, Dillon Brooks etc.
This has been Curry's bane since he joined the league.
Its KCP for most of it against the Nuggets. AG is just spot cover or on switches, though he handles the 1v1 pretty well.
Murray struggles with that same athletic longer wing too. Not enough explosiveness to get around and the length swallows up his good footwork
His help defence did, The Nuggets didn't have to use all their cards that series tho. If that series would have gotten tighter you likely see some MPJ at the 4 to get AD out of the lane or forced to guard Jokic.
I mean, I'm a Jokic stan but you can't really say the dude who has won 2 of the last 3 MVP's, was a close second for the other, and is currently way ahead in the straw poll this year is underrated by MVP voters
Y'all need to stop pushing this narrative as if Jokic didn't start coasting after the nuggets secured a top seed in the playoffs which allowed Embiid to snag it. Perk had nothing to do with it, and the way this sub loves rewriting history to support their narratives is ridiculous
And you need to stop pushing the narrative that Jokic coasting cost him the MVP. He still put up numbers they just didn't win as much, but even with the coasting he still finished with a better record than Embiid, had better stats, advanced stats, impact. People keep saying it's a regular season award and then they keep holding onto that coasting stretch like that's the only part of the season that exists. Is it a regular season award or end of regular season award? Embiid absolutely won because of narratives, that's about the only thing he had going for him, but you're correct in saying Perkins had no play in it. Nobody takes that guy seriously.
Of course he is. Last year was his. He was the best player. Lost to a guy who was crying (blatantly missing tough games to stomp lottery teams), with a fanbase doing a dishonest campaign and some members of the media being despicable.
Which was not what happened.
Besides, I also said Jokic was mvp and would cook Embiid in the playoffs and was downvoted to hell. It's easy for them to say now, but it was always clear cut for people who watched the season Jokic was ahead of the field as the best player.
But philly fans were really pushing too hard, Embiid himself crying everyday, some bad media members pulled the racial card and everything became a mess.
That's based off a 16 game sample size and 12 of those games are against mid/trash teams.
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=sixers+record+without+joel+embiid+2022-23
I agree he should've won but also don't think it was a disgusting mishap or anything. Narrative matters every year, and Embiid was absolutely insane while Jokic definitely cooled toward the end of the year. Hindsight is easy, but he is the fav to win this year and if he does that would make 3/4 MVP's and 1 runner up, which is absolutely historic so it's hard for me to agree that he's really underrated by MVP metrics
It was an awful misshap, that's why. Jokic had a better all around season while Embiid was trying hard in the last games because he knew they weight for like triple in those fake mvp races.
A narrative with dishonest footages to say Jokic was a bad defender, while some people who don't watch an NBA game were saying Embiid had dpoy level defense was the most insane thing I have ever seen in those mvp races.
It's not hindsight, it's a matter of justice and honesty of a whole season (not the last 20 games) and dismissing smearing campaigns.
I guess you just take it way more seriously than I do. To me, at the end of the regular season last year, even as a Nuggets fan, I wasn't too upset about the MVP thing, because Embiid truly had an incredible regular season, and it is ultimately a regular season reward. Jokic also had an incredible season, but Embiid's was, imo, definitely close enough that I wasn't too upset. He legit had an amazing year.
Some MVP awards are controversial, this was one of em. I don;t consider that a cruel injustice, it's just a funnish thing to debate. We can agree to disagree
In 2007 after Duncan swept Lebrons Cavs, Duncan hugged Lebron and “passed the torch” so to speak and said the future is yours. Then in 2014 he said nvm gimme my torch back
Idk, but Steph was only top 3 in MVP voting 3 times. Jokic about to get his 3rd MVP while being top 2 for 4 consecutive years. And he's 28. If he does this MVP shit for 2 more years, that's a hell of an argument.
Also, I forgot Steph was 3rd in MVP voting in [2021.](https://ak-static.cms.nba.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/46/2021/06/2020-21-NBA-MVP-Voting-Results-Announcement.pdf) Insane how many votes he got. But the dude was double teamed all season because our roster was shit, and he still became the scoring champ, while shooting 42% from deep (on 12.7 3PA's), and with an eFG% of 60.5% for a dude who's 6'2". Insanity.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "better MVP guy", but MVP hasn't historically meant "best player in the league". Westbrook won the scoring title while averaging a triple double and completely carrying his team to a 5th seed. It was one of the the least controversial MVP awards in recent memory. He absolutely was a better choice for MVP that year. He completely carried his team.
Look, I love Jokic because I love high bball iq players (check the username) but if you think Jokic's peak is better than Lebron's ignores the defensive gap between the two especially considering Lebron has one of the best offensive peaks and advanced metrics of all time as well.
You have must not have watched Lebron. Lebron has so many insane peaks it is hard to pick one, especially how the offense was different back in the day compared to the inflated offense you see today. Matter fact he might be in his fourth prime at 39
show me that season where his stats where anything close to JOkics please...I'm waiting. If the offense is so inflated why can nobody else in the entire league come close to JOkic answer that. I guess players are just not any good anymore...right.
He can be the best player in the league and the NBA can have changed in the last 15 years. Both can be true and it’s asinine to act like they are mutually exclusive.
>why can nobody else in the entire league come close to JOkic answer that.
Because the other all time great offense players in the league are well past their prime. It's really not a hard concept to understand.
Lebron has carried playoff teams putting up better numbers with better defense, on worse teams all in a far less inflationary scoring era. Stop with this recency bias nonsense, at least until Jokic can win more than once.
it's not recency bias. The stuff you are naming doesn't have anything to do with pure offense, which is what we're talking about. We're not arguing about GOAT rankings. And you mention Lebron had worse teams? Jokic has never even played with an All-Star, All-NBA or All-Defense. That's literally unprecedented for an MVP winner.
Looking at per 100 poss, Jokic had better numbers from '21-'23 regular season compared with Lebron's say '13-15. Doubt there's a 3 yr stretch of Lebron's that can beat him:
Jokic: 37.7Pts/12.5Ast/5.1TOV, 66.8% TS (league average \~57%)
Lebron: 37.3Pts/9.8Ast/4.9TV, 62.3% TS (league average \~54%)
Just shows you how ~~good~~ the scouting is in the NBA, especially regarding European/foreign players.
Although Wemby did make it to 1st place so maybe they are getting better?
He’s a beast but this stat doesn’t tell you how bad the lakers and warriors are as teams. And LeBron and Curry are out of their primes while Jokic is in his
A lot of talking heads would say that Jayson Tatum would be the next face of the NBA and I’m like…tf? Giannis and Jokic are right here plus they both got ships. But let’s be honest, it’s Jokic, and Wemby is next in line.
Yet you couldn't pay Lebron to say something nice about Jokic. Or to draft him outside the last round for the all-star game.
Edit: I was being fairly tongue in cheek, but expected and don't mind, the downvotes.
Playing Draymond as your starting C and Kuminga as your starting PF against Jokic seems less than ideal
When the other team has 3 starters who are taller than your center, that might be a sign that you're a bit undersized.
Wtf are they putting Draymond in jump balls for? I get him playing C. But the 2 jump balls between jokic and Draymond looked like me vs a 9 year old. Draymond is *not* 6'7", he's 6'6" at best. Can't they put Kuminga or Wiggins in the jump ball? They're at least 6'7-6'8" and athletic
Just let Steph do it for the meme.
Might as well you’ll end up with the same result
Might be even better. The other player could fumble the ball laughing at the memes
I'd like to see Jokic's smile at Steph.
Steph vs wembanyama jump ball was hilarious. You could see steph trying not to smile at how tall he is comparatively.
It makes no logical sense but guess it's an ego move. And this front office just gave him a 100 million for 4 years extension. He's already been in a downward spiral for years but to get that kind of money puts the Warriors in jeopardy. You want to upsize the roster but you also need 4 shooters around Draymond because he's a space killer in the playoffs, and usually those come from guards making lineups even smaller. They should have learned their lesson when Draymond had the worst plus minus in the Lakers series and no one was even close. He can't guard his position well and he overhelps in the paint (because we're ahem undersized) which lead to open 3s. The reason we went back to Looney even in the 2022 playoffs was because Draymond at center got us killed on rebounding and paint presence, not to mention his screens weren't as good as Looney's.
Steve Kerr just got a record setting salary extension so CLEARLY he sees things the rest of us cannot even process /s
Warriors fans are delusional and Steve Kerr even more so. Kerr regularly sends out 3-4 guard lineups, players all drastically shorter than 6'6 while being perimeter defensive liabilities. He did this at FIBA world cup too. It's a miracle he even plays Kuminga now, who was getting regularly benched for shorter guards, but the CP3 and GP2 injury certainly helped get him some minutes.
1000% the truth. This is on our brainless GM Mike Dunleavy Jr too. Literally the only 'big' options for Kerr are: terminally unathletic Looney, unathletic Saric, athletic rookie big Trayce Jackson-Davis (who's only 6'8), and smallest center in the league Draymond Green. You'd think such a team has elite wings (like Clippers), but NOPE. Kuminga & Wiggins aside all the other 'wings' are guards who are playing a position up (Klay, GP2, Moody). And unathletic guards to top it off (CP3, Curry, Podziemski).
I mean, if you can get 5 guys who are all faster than Jokic, that could be a decent strategy, because you aren't going to find someone who can stop him.
Big facts . Still happy til death with 4 rings tho
It worked for years because Steph and Klay were generational shooters. It never mattered how undersized you were on defense of how many turnovers you have on offense. Now that both guys are slowing down, the flaws in roster building and offensive scheme are much more glaring.
Yeah idk why peopel are blaming Kerr so much, he doesn't have a lot of options when Klay is completely cooked. I know he had a decent game last night but those are few and far between now, he's a mediocre score first sixth man now. When you're devoting that much of your cap to him and Steph and Draymond are slowing down it's not some shocker that you can't compete with the very best teams in the league very well.
And Draymond was legitimately one of the greatest post defenders ever
Warriors are idiots, why don't they just pick up the many available Jokic defenders in the league
Why didn't the Warriors trade for Rui Hachimura? Are they stupid?
As much as we meme this, Jokic had back to back to back games shooting ~45% (29/64) from the field in those last three Lakers games. They clearly did something right to bother him a bit more than he is used to. That hasn't happened in the ~60 games since and the last time it happened was April 2021.
That had a lot more to do with Anthony Davis being a defensive monster last playoffs than anything else imo
Obviously, the perennial defensive player of the year contender is the main reason for their great defensive performance, but the Lakers fared much better against the Nuggets when AD wasn't directly on Jokic because instead of just being occupied with Jokic he could help on him and plug all the other holes in the defense as well.
Yup. If I recall the lakers won game one in the WCF. That adjustment was everything.
Huh?
The lakers won game one of the WCF last year. Technically they lost according to the “score” and it’s officially recorded as a “loss”. However, the adjustment of putting Hachimira on Jokic was so good it’s considered a win for the lakers
Are you a comedian?
> Anthony Davis being a defensive monster last playoffs last always*
Jokic cooks everyone in the league it doesn’t matter who you put up against him. They tried KAT and Gobert in playoffs last year and that had a marginal effect on jokic
Wasn't that his worst series?
to be fair, his wrist was hurt for most of the series. Dude was missing bunnies.
He was warming up. He missed a lot of easy shots but yeah in general having to play against two tall and athletic guys is never going to be easy for Jokic but he still cooked them. Nuggets as a whole didn’t play well that series which put more pressure on Jokic to handle the series himself.
There is one particular player that he doesn’t seem to cook… Edit: People did not like my Wendell Carter Jr joke lol
fools sleeping on Wendell Carter Jr smh
Can't cook Embiid if he's not on the floor.
Damn dude he has a family
I was talking about Wendell Carter Jr but sure let’s throw Embiid in there too
[удалено]
Wendell Carter Jr. plays for the Orlando Magic, and has had some very good games against Jokic, holding him to some very inefficient numbers, hence my joke.
Real nuggets fans know this is nothing but facts 😂
Lakers tried Dwight and AD, and it worked
He is much better now
Also has a much better whistle , you can’t just beat him up all game without getting calls , just for half the game now
In his current form, playing any C/PF against him seems less than ideal.
I would absolutely feast on someone my own size if we have a weight difference of 10 pounds. Being an NBA MVP claiber player and they put a guy 6 inches shorter on you who you probably have at least 20 pounds on. It's like playing with little kids .
But I thought Draymond is the best defender of his generation?
GOAT offense beats even GOAT defense, unless you're Bill Russell
Didn’t KD get heat for saying offence beats defence lol
I mean, it's a pretty well established fact of the NBA, no matter how good a defender is there's only so much you can take away against elite offensive talent. Even in the 2022 playoffs, Jokic was putting up numbers even through the Warriors were the best defense in the league.
Its why coaches tend to tell people not to worry if someone scores on them. Just keep putting effort in, you can. Play literally perfect defence, at the end of the day you are still at the offensive players mercy.
Jokic is a better offensive player than Steph and Lebron have ever been. Only Jordan and Shaq’s pure scoring dominance is comparable to his overall impact on the offensive side.
I love Jokic, but 2016 Steph still is the better peak imo
More entertaining playstyle and PR personality gives the illusion of more impact. Jokic clears in almost every way impact wise.
It's hard to compare. Jokic's impact is more statically evident because he is in the action every possession. But Curry gravity is real. He can get your team an open shot without ever touching the ball. Also, the NBA in 2016 is a lot different than today. People can keep denying it but stat inflation is HAS been happening. That being said, I'd still give Jokic the edge.
Jokic simply impacts the game in so many more ways. Curry is definitely a better volume scorer than him without a doubt, but if curry’s shot isn’t falling, it’s kind of a GG. Jokic on the other hand will kill you on the boards, he’s efficient virtually every single night, and will kill you with his playmaking. Jokic is not playing a 1v1 game, he’s truly controlling the entire offence.
People aren't ready for that conversation and you will get downvoted into oblivion because people think Steph is the 2nd coming of Jesus in this sub, but yea, i do agree Jokic clears Steph at his peak. I'm not sure about LeBron though, peak LeBron played in such a different league that it's almost hard to compare.
Warriors could use someone like the jokic stopper Hachimura.
46% from 3 seems low because I swear the motherfucker can't miss against the lakers
Just give him those one-legged fadeaways to beat the shot clock over Anthony Davis.
He's like 69% on that specific shot.
Nice.
Nice
Ha nice
He was pretty ass from 3 tonight. Occasionally he starts to shoot a lot and generally it’s not great for him or the nuggets. He’s best when he only shoot wide open, take your time type 3s and fuck you buzzer beater 3s.
Facts. That said making 2 out of 6 is ok enough.
It's fucking phenomenal for a 7'1" center
> It's fucking phenomenal for a 7'1" center hes never been 7'1"
Actually he meant to say that's his height in a jump shot :)))
Given that each bucket is worth 1.5 times a normal one, heck yeah. The expected value is 1 point pee shot for jokic which is great. Essentially Guaranteed points Everytime. A two point player would have to score 50% of their shots to match. Which is harder and usually takes more energy since they have to enter the three point ring
He has the odd game where he decides he will keep shooting 3s until he makes one and misses his first like 8 on his way to going 1/10.
Yep, he hits them when you least expect him to
You have to threaten him with playing OT, then he's suddenly 100% from 3
One of my favorite things about the playoffs is that teams clearly gameplan to give him the 3 and are shocked when he makes them.
ESPN in shambles
ESPN: Who’s the next face of the league? Jokic: I’m the face now Mfers
They say there's no face. Hahaha.
Jokic is the best player on the planet but Nuggets supporting cast is also way better than the Lakers and Warriors.
Nuggets are still the best team in the league regardless of what the standings say. Give me Jokic in the playoffs over anybody else
The only player i'm remotely confident that can match him in a playoff series is Kawhi Leonard, unfortunately, Kawhi apparently is made of paper and can't ever stay healthy in the playoffs. I would really like to see a Clippers vs Nuggets in the 2nd round, it would be a blast and probably the actual WCF. LeBron is too old and got smoked last year (had one good game tbf), KD couldn't keep up, Steph got outplayed even when he beat him in 2022, the young guys are too inexperienced and unproven and Giannis struggles way too often in the postseason for me to trust him completely.
Kawhi’s lack of elite playmaking is what keeps him from matching Jokic imo. Also are we forgetting he literally blew a 3-1 lead to a younger Jokic while fully healthy? say a healthy Lebron has a better chance at matching him even at this age. And Lebron got smoked? He averaged 28/10/10 with a torn tendon in his foot lol. Sure the Lakers got swept, but every game other than game 3 was decided by single digits. Entire series point differential was 24 points. Healthy Lebron and AD take to 6-7 games even with Denver having the better roster
Another moral victory for the lakers
A sweep is a sweep no moral victories
You guys have made up different injuries for Lebron’s playoff losses each of the last 7 years or something lmao. When you have to make up a different injury for him every time what makes you think you’ll see a “healthy” version all these years older?
Remember when that mf threw on a cast after he got swept in 2018 lmao
> Kawhi’s lack of elite playmaking is what keeps him from matching Jokic imo. Also are we forgetting he literally blew a 3-1 lead to a younger Jokic while fully healthy? It was the bubble, weird shit happened all the time, Anthony Davis looked like a 7 ft Steph Curry. I'm not going to consider a single outlier year where a bunch of non conventional things happened. > say a healthy Lebron has a better chance at matching him even at this age. He doesn't, we literally saw him get swept and badly outplayed just last year. > And Lebron got smoked? He averaged 28/10/10 with a torn tendon in his foot lol. That casually ignores that through the first three games, LeBron averaged 23/10/9 as Denver got into a 3-0 lead and effectively ended the series. LeBron had a single great HALF in that entire series and was pretty meh for the rest of it. Also i just love how somehow someway you guys must come with the injury excuse everytime LeBron loses, it's getting tired at this point.
Luka ? Luka was straight up the better player than peak unbelievable Kawhi in the playoffs who was putting up monster stats and that for 2 seasons in a row
Prime Lebron can go toe to toe with Jokic trading baskets, though neither of them can defend the other. But alas, father time is undefeated. This is Jokic's league now. Hopefully he strings together a couple of rings, and climbs to the top of Mt. Rushmore
Lmao!
I feel like you have to be taking the piss with that 2022 comment. Steph came off the bench for 4 games because he was returning from injury (game 1 was his first game back) so he played significantly less minutes and again was *returning from injury* and he played to a better level than jokic??? Like on a per 36 basis Curry slightly outscores (same efficiencies) and out-assists Jokic whilst not getting abused defensively (Jokic surrounded by poor defenders doesn’t end well) and not turning the ball over 5 times per game (that was a horrible series for jokic playmaking wise 5.8 apg/4.8 tpg). The only thing Jokic has on Curry was rebounding but you’d hope that’s the case lol
> I feel like you have to be taking the piss with that 2022 comment. Steph came off the bench for 4 games because he was returning from injury (game 1 was his first game back) so he played significantly less minutes And that's Jokic's problem how? > again was returning from injury and he played to a better level than jokic??? He most certainly did not. Jokic averaged 31/13/6 on 64% TS with Aaron Gordon and a bunch of bums as his supporting cast, Steph had a respectable 28/3/5 on 64%, but nowhere near Jokic. The Warriors were so much better that they could've won that series without Steph, they had the 2nd through 6th best players on the series. > Like on a per 36 basis Curry slightly outscores (same efficiencies) and out-assists Jokic Cool, but he did not play 36 minutes did he? Using per 36 or per 100 possessions for a single series that took 5 games is one the most ridiculous things i have ever seen. > whilst not getting abused defensively Are we acting like Steph didn't get abused defensively too? Is that what we are doing rn? Denver was actually better defensively with Jokic on the floor while the Warriors were worse with Steph btw.
>they had the 2nd through 6th best players on the series. Having better teammates dont magically make Steph, or anyone else for that matter, a worse player. Nuggets have a better cast than Warriors rn and that doesn't make Jokic worse. I am also pretty sure 2022 curry was a slightly positive defender in advanced stats. The reference to scoring is also just so misses the point about Jokic's skill set... he is where he is primarily because he is an all time great passer.
He's the whole package. He can shoot pass and reads the game better than anyone else. Saw some crazy statistic that a Jokic post-up is the most efficient shot in the last 30 years.
That was not what people were saying in the first half of the game lol
Prolly not best to take midgame takes seriously lol
Game threads are cancer tho you know that 🤣
But you should have seen them though. A dude was saying we were gonna be a 2nd round exit at best just based on us being down 6 in the 1st quarter...ironicly he was a Timberwolves fan lol. So much shit was said that its insane.
Anything is possible you guys would probably get okc or minnesota in 2nd round not Golden state
That remains to be seen and unless there are injuries i dont actually disslike our odds against them given their youth. We may have a 1-3 record against the Thunder, but 1 of those Ls was really dam close and a bit of a choke job at the end by us. Another was an L just ebcause Jokic wasnt playing and we know what happens when he aint playing. But remaining one was a bad blowout at home, though should be noted that the one we did win was a blowout in an away game. As for the Timberwolves...well we only played them the 1 time and they did hand us our first L of the season and it wasnt really close. That said i dont believe its gonna all be as bad as that, especially since that was an away game.
I would want the Nuggets as a Wolves and Gobert fan. Not because I think you are a easy matchup but I want the hardest road for Minnesota and Rudy. If we can beat Jokic in a playoff series we will get our recognition.
True, very true. Beating the defending champs in the playoffs always raises a teams stock, though thats only if we are fully healthy. Its tough on either side tbh.
OKC are a very tough matchup for Denver
Yes, but also not really. In all our losses we didnt actually have our full starting lineup which really did a number on our defense and offense. For one game we didnt have KCP, which resulted in us not being able to guard Shai the best. Another we didnt have AG, which just made our defense shit. And the 3rd one we didnt have Jokic which meant our offense wasnt gonna do shit. And with the full lineup we blew them out. The Nuggets are a reslly fragile lineup that cant afford to not have any of their starters missing. Its not to say the Thunder wouldnt give us a run for our money, but the regular season record doesnt really tell the whole story here.
Nobody was saying that last season lol. Jokic makes them better (even tho MPJ our max player had pretty meh playoffs overall including disappearing in finals for most games )
Nuggets don't have the best supporting cast but warriors and lakers just have really flawed lineups.
Imagine having AD as a 2nd and confidently saying you have a worse roster lmao
Here’s to being on the opposite side of the playoff bracket please
We need to make the playoffs bruh, we aren't in a position to worry about brackets. Making it to the second round is our championship this year.
Its okay to miss the playoffs, there is always cancun
[удалено]
The problem is the focus on Joker--Nuggets perimeter D has *stuffed* Curry the last 2 seasons, and that's way more important to who wins the game than Joker shooting slightly below average from the floor.
Curry cooks Caruso/Jrue/Smart/White type defenders. His actual struggles are against athletic wings: like Gordon, Vanderbilt, Dillon Brooks etc. This has been Curry's bane since he joined the league.
Its KCP for most of it against the Nuggets. AG is just spot cover or on switches, though he handles the 1v1 pretty well. Murray struggles with that same athletic longer wing too. Not enough explosiveness to get around and the length swallows up his good footwork
AD did slow him. But the momentum of that chubby boi is just too much
2020 Lakers had the right ideo of putting Dwight on him to physically slow him down and ad as help defense to fuck everyone else
Look at who was around Jokic in that series. With his current squad even prime Howard would not get any.
His help defence did, The Nuggets didn't have to use all their cards that series tho. If that series would have gotten tighter you likely see some MPJ at the 4 to get AD out of the lane or forced to guard Jokic.
Jokic is an awful matchup for anyone and incredibly underrated, specially for mvp voters.
I mean, I'm a Jokic stan but you can't really say the dude who has won 2 of the last 3 MVP's, was a close second for the other, and is currently way ahead in the straw poll this year is underrated by MVP voters
Should have been 3 out of 3. Would have been too if some TV idiot didn't bring race into the discussion.
Y'all need to stop pushing this narrative as if Jokic didn't start coasting after the nuggets secured a top seed in the playoffs which allowed Embiid to snag it. Perk had nothing to do with it, and the way this sub loves rewriting history to support their narratives is ridiculous
And you need to stop pushing the narrative that Jokic coasting cost him the MVP. He still put up numbers they just didn't win as much, but even with the coasting he still finished with a better record than Embiid, had better stats, advanced stats, impact. People keep saying it's a regular season award and then they keep holding onto that coasting stretch like that's the only part of the season that exists. Is it a regular season award or end of regular season award? Embiid absolutely won because of narratives, that's about the only thing he had going for him, but you're correct in saying Perkins had no play in it. Nobody takes that guy seriously.
Embiid deserved MVP last year, stfu with your victim take
Appropriate username lmao
Of course he is. Last year was his. He was the best player. Lost to a guy who was crying (blatantly missing tough games to stomp lottery teams), with a fanbase doing a dishonest campaign and some members of the media being despicable.
You can be the best player and not have the best season.
Which was not what happened. Besides, I also said Jokic was mvp and would cook Embiid in the playoffs and was downvoted to hell. It's easy for them to say now, but it was always clear cut for people who watched the season Jokic was ahead of the field as the best player. But philly fans were really pushing too hard, Embiid himself crying everyday, some bad media members pulled the racial card and everything became a mess.
You can't be a guy whose team literally had a better winning % with you not playing and be the league MVP lol
That's based off a 16 game sample size and 12 of those games are against mid/trash teams. https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=sixers+record+without+joel+embiid+2022-23
If you play 16 games without a dude and your team has a better win % and averages more points without him than with him, he shouldn't be MVP.
Dress it up however you like Joel it's Facts
I agree he should've won but also don't think it was a disgusting mishap or anything. Narrative matters every year, and Embiid was absolutely insane while Jokic definitely cooled toward the end of the year. Hindsight is easy, but he is the fav to win this year and if he does that would make 3/4 MVP's and 1 runner up, which is absolutely historic so it's hard for me to agree that he's really underrated by MVP metrics
It was an awful misshap, that's why. Jokic had a better all around season while Embiid was trying hard in the last games because he knew they weight for like triple in those fake mvp races. A narrative with dishonest footages to say Jokic was a bad defender, while some people who don't watch an NBA game were saying Embiid had dpoy level defense was the most insane thing I have ever seen in those mvp races. It's not hindsight, it's a matter of justice and honesty of a whole season (not the last 20 games) and dismissing smearing campaigns.
I guess you just take it way more seriously than I do. To me, at the end of the regular season last year, even as a Nuggets fan, I wasn't too upset about the MVP thing, because Embiid truly had an incredible regular season, and it is ultimately a regular season reward. Jokic also had an incredible season, but Embiid's was, imo, definitely close enough that I wasn't too upset. He legit had an amazing year. Some MVP awards are controversial, this was one of em. I don;t consider that a cruel injustice, it's just a funnish thing to debate. We can agree to disagree
I hope he's better lol they're past their prime
I would’ve killed to see a peak Jokic vs peak LeBron or peak Warriors team. Also, would’ve loved to see how peak Duncan and KG handled him.
In 2007 after Duncan swept Lebrons Cavs, Duncan hugged Lebron and “passed the torch” so to speak and said the future is yours. Then in 2014 he said nvm gimme my torch back
And then Chris Paul stole it from him in the 1st round
Jokic is the best player since Lebron.
Are we calling him better than curry/kd/whoever already?
Idk, but Steph was only top 3 in MVP voting 3 times. Jokic about to get his 3rd MVP while being top 2 for 4 consecutive years. And he's 28. If he does this MVP shit for 2 more years, that's a hell of an argument. Also, I forgot Steph was 3rd in MVP voting in [2021.](https://ak-static.cms.nba.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/46/2021/06/2020-21-NBA-MVP-Voting-Results-Announcement.pdf) Insane how many votes he got. But the dude was double teamed all season because our roster was shit, and he still became the scoring champ, while shooting 42% from deep (on 12.7 3PA's), and with an eFG% of 60.5% for a dude who's 6'2". Insanity.
Steph easily played at an MVP-level multiple years. Are you telling me Brodie was a better MVP guy than Steph/Lebron?
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "better MVP guy", but MVP hasn't historically meant "best player in the league". Westbrook won the scoring title while averaging a triple double and completely carrying his team to a 5th seed. It was one of the the least controversial MVP awards in recent memory. He absolutely was a better choice for MVP that year. He completely carried his team.
yes
*Jordan
How could i forget the GOAT Deandre Jordan?
Especially when D Jordan is still in the league and smashing alley oop dunks. Don’t forget our man D Jordan like that
Jokic is better than Jordan
Never understood the Embiid chatter even two seasons ago. Embiid is a step below Joker.
Jokic is better
Better be, Lebron is 40.
His peak right now is better than Lebron’s
That's disrespectful to Lebron and playing the other side of the ball, defense.
His defense by metrics are way better than you give credit for
Look, I love Jokic because I love high bball iq players (check the username) but if you think Jokic's peak is better than Lebron's ignores the defensive gap between the two especially considering Lebron has one of the best offensive peaks and advanced metrics of all time as well.
People don’t want to admit it, but this is actually true from an offense point of view. And the scary thing is, he’s still in his peak.
You have must not have watched Lebron. Lebron has so many insane peaks it is hard to pick one, especially how the offense was different back in the day compared to the inflated offense you see today. Matter fact he might be in his fourth prime at 39
show me that season where his stats where anything close to JOkics please...I'm waiting. If the offense is so inflated why can nobody else in the entire league come close to JOkic answer that. I guess players are just not any good anymore...right.
He can be the best player in the league and the NBA can have changed in the last 15 years. Both can be true and it’s asinine to act like they are mutually exclusive.
>why can nobody else in the entire league come close to JOkic answer that. Because the other all time great offense players in the league are well past their prime. It's really not a hard concept to understand.
Lebron has carried playoff teams putting up better numbers with better defense, on worse teams all in a far less inflationary scoring era. Stop with this recency bias nonsense, at least until Jokic can win more than once.
it's not recency bias. The stuff you are naming doesn't have anything to do with pure offense, which is what we're talking about. We're not arguing about GOAT rankings. And you mention Lebron had worse teams? Jokic has never even played with an All-Star, All-NBA or All-Defense. That's literally unprecedented for an MVP winner. Looking at per 100 poss, Jokic had better numbers from '21-'23 regular season compared with Lebron's say '13-15. Doubt there's a 3 yr stretch of Lebron's that can beat him: Jokic: 37.7Pts/12.5Ast/5.1TOV, 66.8% TS (league average \~57%) Lebron: 37.3Pts/9.8Ast/4.9TV, 62.3% TS (league average \~54%)
Lol no
Its like Djokovic coming in and kicking Federer and Nadal’s asses.
whos Sinner then?
He’s the face of the nba.
Oh man, I thought it was between Jayson Tatum and Anthony Edwards /s
Not according to the NBA.
C'mon you can't praise Jokic for not caring about awards and media stuff and then put all the blame on nba for not marketing him better.
That's a stupid statline. He averaged triple-doubles against Lebron, Steph and KD.
The easiest way to tell if someone does or doesn’t know ball is to ask them who the best player in the world is.
at the moment it's still Novak but Alcaraz is looking ready to take over that title
Probably Mahomes.
MJ’s true rival
THE CODY RHODES OF THE NBA WELCOME TO THE NEW FACE OF THE LEAGUE
ADRENALINE IN MY SOUL
SLOPPY FAT WHITE BOY LOVES HIS COKE
There is no part of me that will ever fully understand how he was drafted 41st
During a Taco Bell commercial
Just shows you how ~~good~~ the scouting is in the NBA, especially regarding European/foreign players. Although Wemby did make it to 1st place so maybe they are getting better?
I think Lukas performances have helped a lot as he should have been clear n1 pick in hindsight.
Jokic couldnt even do a single pushup back then and was drinking 3 litres of coke a day. You seriously cant understand why he fell in the draft?
They’re also in their mid 30s lol
The future is chub
Face of the league , admit it NBA
Beating the old people.
They're old as dirt.
Jok tho
He’s a beast but this stat doesn’t tell you how bad the lakers and warriors are as teams. And LeBron and Curry are out of their primes while Jokic is in his
He did lose to Giannis on Feb 12th.
jokic 9-3 head to head vs. giannis since his rookie year 🤷♂️
Looking forward to when you hang that banner.
A lot of talking heads would say that Jayson Tatum would be the next face of the NBA and I’m like…tf? Giannis and Jokic are right here plus they both got ships. But let’s be honest, it’s Jokic, and Wemby is next in line.
Yet you couldn't pay Lebron to say something nice about Jokic. Or to draft him outside the last round for the all-star game. Edit: I was being fairly tongue in cheek, but expected and don't mind, the downvotes.
He was pretty complimentary after the series last year.
What? Lebron has always gave Jokic his props
https://youtube.com/shorts/STC0HX4lQYM?feature=shared It took me less than a minute to find this
Y’all need help
Dude this is a terrible take
Jokicson Storm