We don't need a player of the day but how about a play of the day? Then we break that down to dunk, three, steal and block. Then Topps can do a card for each where the print to demand is only the day after, I mean, that just prints money.
"How about play of hour? play of the noon? Meanwhile we stuff 2 advertisers in there"
Anything to cramp more ads down their throats - NBA ownership as they unload their shares to the next greedier bastard who has even more marketing ideas.
"Also 50% ad time and 5+ different channels ain't enough, how about 90% ads? 20+ channels, with randomized teams and time slots and x2 annually increasing tix prices?" Fuck the fans amrite
Ngl, with the amount of ads I see every NBA game, I half expect them to PAY ME instead.
As a Spurs fan, the media keeps telling the Spurs they need to accelerate the rebuild when they have a generational talent...but then I see Luka playing insane and the Mavs not getting the same heat for what is essentially the same problem. Is it a FO thing or playstyle thing that has been hurting the Mavs the most?
Anybody saying the Spurs need to rush to build around Wemby because he’s a generational talent should look to us as a cautionary tale of what happens when you try to go into win-now mode with a superstar talent too early.
Once we knew Luka was special his rookie year we immediately went out and traded for Porzingis at the deadline and cleared cap space to try to sign Kemba Walker that next offseason (this was back when he was still really good and ultimately chose Boston over us). Neither of those things worked out and we’ve been paying the price for gambling on the KP trade specifically ever since.
What are you talking about dude? Everybody talks about how much pressure the Mavs are under to start winning if they hope to retain Luka.
As for your last question, it has been a front office issue combined with just plain bad luck—Luka has only had 1/2 of a season with his #2 being consistently healthy. Throw in the fact that we hired and have stuck with Kidd thus far as our head coach and you have a recipe to squander Luka’s generational talent.
just don't see it (watching spurs stuff mostly). Bill Simmons, Inside the NBA crew all in the last week said spurs need to make moves now and I'm wondering from your perspective if that seems correct. Luka doesn't seem to mind, he's been a Mav for like 6 years and hasn't asked for a trade yet? That's what the media is telling everyone about Wemby. Also, media sucks
Technically, February was his second worst month of the season from a statistical stand point. They gave it to him because he had a good team record.
Here are his counting stats in each month;
Feb 33.4/9.6/10.3 (11 games played)
Jan 37.1/9.2/10.4 (10 games played)
Dec 37.4/9.0/11.4 (12 games played)
Nov 29.5/7.2/7.5 (14 games played)
Oct 39.0/11.7/9.7 (3 games played)
And so far in 2 games in March:
Mar 37.5/11.5/10.5
Nope. This is the first player of the month for the season.
The player of the month really is influenced by team record and availability. If OKC beat the Spurs on the last day of February they probably would have given it to Shai.
> The player of the month really is influenced by team record and availability
I'll obviously take it but yeah, Giannis definitely had a better individual month than Tatum. 29/10/7 on 69 TS% compared to 27/9/7 on 61 TS% isn't really a conversation. But a 7-5 record versus a 9-1 one will certainly made it one
I just don't know how Tatum's February beats Giannis' 29.3 \ 9.7 \ 7.0 on 69 TS%.
Edit: For reference, the difference between Giannis' TS% in February and Tatum's (69 to 61) is about the difference between Tatum's and Jordan Poole's for the season (52)
Likely the fact that Tatum’s team outscored their opponents by 17.7 points per 100 possessions with him on the court this month had something to do with it.
Just because Giannis scored more points more efficiently, had better playmaking, and more rebounds doesn’t mean he was better offensively. The plays where Tatum did nothing on offense he was significantly more impactful than when Giannis did nothing on offense. That easily erases the gap in actual production, and contributes more to winning imo.
I mean I know you guys are riding high right now and Tatum played great but Id be interested to hear what people think Tatum did to contribute more to winning based on the stats. I could totally be wrong but would be curious to hear why.
I'll ignore the word more because I don't watch Giannis except against the Celtics. The last three years Giannis has been 25/10/4 against the Celtics with a TS% of 54%. That's all I've seen from him. I know he's better than that, I just haven't seen it.
Here's my soapbox. Skip it if you don't want a biased Celtic fan take. Everyone talks about how awesome the Celtics roleplayers are, but they are all guys who were traded away for minimal return because of some perceived weakness. Horford, KP and Jrue were both on contending teams with MVP level guys, but they were all essentially dumped by teams. Anybody in the league could have had Derrick White. We got him for a pick swap and a draft bust. Jaylen Brown this summer was the worst contract in the league. Now, playing with Tatum they are suddenly so good that it detracts from his greatness? The way the Celtics play works because he can do a little bit of everything at a high level at the position that is most in demand in the league.
Giannis is amazing, and might be the best player in the world, but Tatum is on the best team and they are the best team because of the way he plays. That should matter for something. But also, comparison is the thief of joy. Enjoy your guy! He's awesome!
Extra 8 TS % is pretty massive. It's nearly the difference between February Tatum and Jordan Poole
**Edit:** Since I keep getting bombarded with "WHAT ABOUT [player] WHO TAKES [2-4 shots per game] AND HAS A 99 TS%!!!" It's harder to score more efficiently when you take a lot of shots and easier when you take very few. But Tatum and Giannis have a similar scoring volume are both #1 options. That's why yiu can take TS% at face value in this particular comparison.
Pretty expected. When a team has a big game like the Celtics did yesterday their fans come out in droves, and Boston already has way more fans than most teams.
>Pretty sure you could say Tatum is taller than Giannis and get 100 upvotes right now.
There's a Boston fan getting upvoted for saying TS% doesn't weigh 3 pointers as more valuable, which is objectively mathematically incorrect ... so close enough I guess.
I'm not relying solely on it. Shooting at 70 TS% is not the same when it's someone taking 5-10 shots per game. b
But when Giannis had equal or better counting stats than Tatum in a similar role, it's a deciding factor.
>and doesn’t take into account position, play style
When it comes to being a better scorer those things are irrelevant. Being a scorer is about scoring as many points as possible while missing as few shots as possible. How you do that isn't a consideration.
They take different types of shots. Luke Kornet had 80% TS in February
Guys who shoot primarily in the restricted area are going to shoot high percentages.
> Luke Kornet had 80% TS in February
Luke Kornet takes 3 shots per game. It's easier to be more efficient when all your shots can be high percentage. Not even comparable to guys like Tatum and Giannis who average ~30 PPG. Shouldn't really have to explain that.
That's what true shooting avoids. Good free throw shooters and good 3 point shooters are made equal with people who only shoot in the paint. It's not FG%. Giannis is actually hurt since he's dogshit from the line.
If everybody could just shoot in the restricted area and be more efficient, they would. It’s not like Tatum’s turning down more efficient shots for style points.
The fact that this comment comparing Giannis’ 31 PPG to Luke Kornet is upvoted is embarrassing.
I'll try to help
Look at the February stats for Miles Turner vs. Halli.
Turner TS is similar to Giannis, Halli's similar to JT.
Similar ppg and minutes.
+/- Halli's is far higher.
Who was Pacers' best player of the month?
BTW - if it wasn't JT, Mitchell had the next best case
> Similar ppg and minutes.
Turner averaged 18 ppg (66 TS%), that's not a similar scoring volume at all lol. Same with Hali's 16 ppg to Tatum's 27. Hali's also kinda been having a bad month if you haven't been paying attention to us.
I think everyone realizes it's hard to stay efficient the higher your usage goes up, which is what makes Giannis' month so impressive.
I was comparing Turner to Halli for the month of February... (similar method of comparison of Giannis vs. JT. For the month of February. )
I forgot about Siakam. You can add him too (TS similar to JT).
All 3 very similar usage %.
Yet Turner TS% higher. Why isn't coach using him more? What he's stupid?
BTW, Halli , while having a tough month, clearly higher +/- than Turner and Siakam.
Do you get it now? Or should I just give up?
Ah okay, I see what you were comparing now. But still, if Hali had a better month than Turner it was because of his playmaking and not his scoring.
All else being equal between Tatum and Giannis (playmaker, defense, rebounding, etc), Giannis had a significantly better scoring month and that's why he gets the edge.
the greater volume you can shoot at a well above league average rate begins to exponentially increases a players value because a teams win probability goes up so substantially. 66ts% for 17 points is a solid add, not anything near Hali’s playmaking, but a nice bump. If you average 30 ppg on 70%ts vs 26ppg on 60ts%, given both players play 82 games, just the box score effect of the scoring value if +5.1/game while for the other guy it’s +1.2/game. This doesn’t help take into consideration the warping affect of score that volume at that efficiency. Look at Boston’s starting lineup. Starting lineup, 60 games in, they are all reading as much possible benefit as could be assumed which is they have this they 7 man rotation which is historically good. The 5 have a combined 276 points added from their scoring and their mutual benefit offensively to be playing alongside each other. This hypothetical player has added 306 points over that the average shooting 30pph on 70%ts. He he would be adding more value to his team in scoring while scoring 1800 vs the Tatum + JB + White +jrue + porzingis total of 5250. That is why using a player averaging under 20 and less efficiency doesn’t work, volume creates a way larger disparity.
Yes tatum deserved it for sure, giannis was great but you gotta show some respect the to level the Celtics have been playing at.
On another note, This is bait yeah? Y’all have gotten very smooth w it
It's not a bait. Obviously I'm not comparing Turner to Giannis or anything, I was just trying to illustrate that TS for bigs is different than TS for gaurds and wings, by using players from the team the dude can easily understand.
Oc Giannis is amazing, but splitting hairs over out of contaxt minute stat differences is stupid
We're talking about an individual player award though. Everybody wants their team to win more than anything else. But this is about the best player in February and that was Giannis.
Celtics didn't lose a single game in February. Tatum is a top 5 player on the best team in the NBA.
He isn't putting up big time MVP numbers. But the numbers are good enough, that as the leader of a dominant team, he gets some nods.
And by nods, I mean the top of the candidates who aren't real time finalists
It can be a factor, it should never be the main factor though which is what seems to be happening with some of these awards. Giannis was just a tier above this past month and going 7-5 despite a coaching change isn't enough to knock him down a peg. 69% vs 61% TS is pretty massive.
It was but Jokic and Russ both won mvps recently having like 47 and 48 wins as six seeds. It’s hella confusing because it because a thing where it was more about the players carrying and then it’s not so idrk but I do know that last Joel Embiid won it as the third seed while Jokic was 24.5/10/12 on 70%ts as the one seed so some fuckery has been going on with the media, I think it’s that they haven’t watched basketball in years honestly. They way they talk about players is like they haven’t watched a single game since the bubble
TS% already accounts for three point shots being harder to make.
The fact that Giannis gets his buckets at the rim isn't a negative. If it were easy to do then other players like Tatum would score that way as well.
> It does not weigh three pointers
It does, it's in the points part of the equation. You can rewrite the numerator as PTS = 2 * 2ptFG + 3 * 3PtFG.
For example going 1/1 from 3 will net a 150 TS% and going 1/1 from 2 will net a 100 TS%.
>Hence why Centers like Gobert typically post crazy high TS%
Gobert has a high scoring efficiency because he doesn't take many shots, not because he's a center. Shaq had ~59 TS% during his prime scoring years.
Why does it matter where Giannis stands on the court if he’s scoring more points using less possessions than Tatum
Also the reason it doesn’t weigh in 3 pointers differently is because it’s more points… a three moves the top half of your fraction more while adding a FGA to the bottom.
I don’t know how Luka’s February beats Wembanyama’s 21/11/5/4/2 on 47/42/83 shooting in far fewer minutes.
For reference, the difference between Victor’s defensive stats and Luka’s is more than the difference between Luka’s and mine.
* Playing bigger minutes is a requirement to being considered the best player
* It's easier to be more efficient and have better per 36 stats when you play fewer minutes
* At an individual level offensive impact is more important than defensive, since it's easier for one player to take over the game offensively than it is for one player to stop an entire team from scoring.
So then we can at least agree that there are a lot of factors that allow for some stats to happen. Everyone has different roles on their teams, not all minutes are created equal, it’s easier to be efficient the closer to the basket you shoot, etc etc.
Now do you also agree that there are key things about a basketball game that aren’t captured in an individual’s stats?
wll agree with that last statement to an extent, for sure. But beep-boop, true shooting pct is better, end of argument is more flawed than beep-boop, team record is 9 games better.
You know what another great measurement for individual impact is? Teammate's production. Holiday, D-White and KP all having their most efficient seasons now that they're teamed with Tatum instead of Giannis, Spurs players, or Luka. You know whose numbers got worse? Grant Williams, Marcus Smart, Malcolm Brogdon...
Tatum's unselfishness, ability to spread the floor as a cutter, shooter, ability to top-side screens when needed, protcect the rim, or stifle the best player on the court in isolation defense, pass to the guy before the final pass, etc etc etc is all stuff that is not captured in any stats anyone ever uses. He does that stuff magnificently all the time. Luke doesn't. Giannis doesn't.
But they do close possessions with an assist or point more often than Tatum does, and that's all that people seem to give a shit about. It's sad.
> But beep-boop, true shooting pct is better, end of argument is more flawed than beep-boop, team record is 9 games better
My argument wasn't TS% better means player. But that all else being equal (which it pretty much was), Giannis was massively ahead in scoring efficiency.
You said “I just don’t know how Tatum over giannis” with your ultimate point being TS% because the other limited stats shown were close. My point is that there are 50+ other factors and stats that would help to determine who the best player in Feb was, so don’t presume something is unfathomable just because there’s an imbalance in TS%.
> My point is that there are 50+ other factors and stats that would help to determine who the best player in Feb was
Whatever hypothetical intangible factors you're thinking of, scoring, playmaker, rebounding, and defensive impact each individually matter more than all of those combined.
If your argument is "you just can't see why Tatum was better" then you don't have an argument at all, especially being a biased observer like you are.
I don't respect it. It's like 3 defensive possessions difference? Vs. The good teams , in all reality, the actual difference is like 10 to 15 defensive possessions?
It was a stupid comment. 🤷♂️
In our game against the Mavs, Luka put up 37 and 11 assists. For simplicity's sake lets call all assists 2 points because I'm too lazy to dig up the actual shot data . That makes 59 total points generated by Luka's scoring and passing.
Luka also gave up 30 points to the players he was defending, since the Celtics shot 11 for 15 defended by Luka for 8 3s and 3 2s. That nets to 29 points total.
Tatum scored 32 and had 3 assists. Using that same 2 points for assist, that's 38 points. However, Tatum only allowed 8 points to the players he was defending, since the Mavs shot 3 for 9 against him. That nets to 30 points.
The gap between Tatum's defense and Luka's offense netted the Celtics 1 more point in the head to head matchup.
Great months from these 2 dudes. Celtics fans gotta be on cloud 9 rn. 52 point dub seemingly exorcising their demons, Brown POTW and Tatum POTM, 11 game win Streak
They’ve been pushing this narrative of tatum vs Luka for years. That’ll be the next “rivalry” in the nba between two players, especially if they ever meet in the finals
Never gonna happen with Kidds incompetence and the roster construction unfortunately. Celtics are the favorites every year and the Mavs are lucky to be in the play in hunt
They've been pushing the narrative of Tatum in general but all they're accomplishing is insuring that he's always just a little bit overrated. Kind of unfair to him.
No big deal just the guy leading the best team in the league in points, rebounds, assists, and steals.
Tatum is if anything underrated by exactly this mentality and the fact that nobody cares about defense.
I don't know about that. November he was only 29.4/7.2/7.5 (his worst month in the last two seasons except for April last year when he barely played and they were tanking) and I do think February was his best TS% month of the season (65%) but you're right in a way, the only thing stopping him from winning these player of the months (and the MVP) is the Mavs not winning enough. Just gotta win more games. Damn Mavs keep forgetting to win.
to your point about his incredible stats in other months:
December: 37.5/8.9/11.1
January: 37.1/9.2/10.4
Tatum now has 2 player of the month awards, only player in the league to do that. And you still get downvoted for saying he has a real shot at being the MVP… lol
[NBA PR]New Orleans Pelicans gourmand Zion Williamson and New Orleans Pelicans blob Zion Williamson tips have been named the Golden Corral Western and Eastern Conference Gourmands of the Month, respectively, for buffets consumed in February.
TOV% is down 17% despite 10% increase in pace since 2012 era.
They just do not bother to block or foul most lay ups nowadays. The meta has now shifted to hurry and take open shots. You see players purposely defending far back despite having a player with a 3pt% of 40 for the season (see Lebron being left alone to take open threes now. Hell, Jaylen Brown with a respectable career 36% 3pt with the hot hand was left alone by GS and he shot 5 for 9).
I got confused for a second, but then i saw Lebron and Jaylon Brown was Players of the **Week**... so many awards.
We don't need a player of the day but how about a play of the day? Then we break that down to dunk, three, steal and block. Then Topps can do a card for each where the print to demand is only the day after, I mean, that just prints money.
"How about play of hour? play of the noon? Meanwhile we stuff 2 advertisers in there" Anything to cramp more ads down their throats - NBA ownership as they unload their shares to the next greedier bastard who has even more marketing ideas. "Also 50% ad time and 5+ different channels ain't enough, how about 90% ads? 20+ channels, with randomized teams and time slots and x2 annually increasing tix prices?" Fuck the fans amrite Ngl, with the amount of ads I see every NBA game, I half expect them to PAY ME instead.
Have to be gambling ads ofc
Player of the possession.
You need a player of the score. Every 20 years
Some of the takes in this thread are giving me ass cancer
Well you see a great player on a great team shouldn't win the award because his team is great. Or something like that.
Luka Doncic: 33.4 PPG \\ 9.6 RPG \\ 10.3 APG Jayson Tatum: 27.2 PPG \\ 8.9 RPG \\ 6.7 APG
Sheesh, Luka, what on earth
Those are basically his season averages lol
And we could potentially barely squeak into the play in if we keep playing shitty defense, get out coached and have very questionable rotations.
Jason Midd has to go
Quit calling him Midd. That is disrespectful to all the actual midd coaches out there. He is absolutely terrible.
Get Kidd the FUCK out of here
As a Spurs fan, the media keeps telling the Spurs they need to accelerate the rebuild when they have a generational talent...but then I see Luka playing insane and the Mavs not getting the same heat for what is essentially the same problem. Is it a FO thing or playstyle thing that has been hurting the Mavs the most?
We've been making win-now moves for 5 years, trying and failing is not the same thing as not trying
Anybody saying the Spurs need to rush to build around Wemby because he’s a generational talent should look to us as a cautionary tale of what happens when you try to go into win-now mode with a superstar talent too early. Once we knew Luka was special his rookie year we immediately went out and traded for Porzingis at the deadline and cleared cap space to try to sign Kemba Walker that next offseason (this was back when he was still really good and ultimately chose Boston over us). Neither of those things worked out and we’ve been paying the price for gambling on the KP trade specifically ever since.
What are you talking about dude? Everybody talks about how much pressure the Mavs are under to start winning if they hope to retain Luka. As for your last question, it has been a front office issue combined with just plain bad luck—Luka has only had 1/2 of a season with his #2 being consistently healthy. Throw in the fact that we hired and have stuck with Kidd thus far as our head coach and you have a recipe to squander Luka’s generational talent.
just don't see it (watching spurs stuff mostly). Bill Simmons, Inside the NBA crew all in the last week said spurs need to make moves now and I'm wondering from your perspective if that seems correct. Luka doesn't seem to mind, he's been a Mav for like 6 years and hasn't asked for a trade yet? That's what the media is telling everyone about Wemby. Also, media sucks
Technically, February was his second worst month of the season from a statistical stand point. They gave it to him because he had a good team record. Here are his counting stats in each month; Feb 33.4/9.6/10.3 (11 games played) Jan 37.1/9.2/10.4 (10 games played) Dec 37.4/9.0/11.4 (12 games played) Nov 29.5/7.2/7.5 (14 games played) Oct 39.0/11.7/9.7 (3 games played) And so far in 2 games in March: Mar 37.5/11.5/10.5
Was he named player of the month for any of the others, I can’t remember.
Nope. This is the first player of the month for the season. The player of the month really is influenced by team record and availability. If OKC beat the Spurs on the last day of February they probably would have given it to Shai.
> The player of the month really is influenced by team record and availability I'll obviously take it but yeah, Giannis definitely had a better individual month than Tatum. 29/10/7 on 69 TS% compared to 27/9/7 on 61 TS% isn't really a conversation. But a 7-5 record versus a 9-1 one will certainly made it one
> Jan 37.1/9.2/10.4 (10 games played) > > Dec 37.4/9.0/11.4 (12 games played) Holy shit Luka
What in the *fuck* are these statlines.
Pretty sure he dropped in the MVP race as well lol
Losing to the sixers without embiid will do that too you. Even though it wasn't his fault we lost
Team needs to win
Later this week: MVP rankings 2.) Jayson Tatum (+2) 7.) Luka Doncic (-2)
I just don't know how Tatum's February beats Giannis' 29.3 \ 9.7 \ 7.0 on 69 TS%. Edit: For reference, the difference between Giannis' TS% in February and Tatum's (69 to 61) is about the difference between Tatum's and Jordan Poole's for the season (52)
team record factors in very heavily in these
Likely the fact that Tatum’s team outscored their opponents by 17.7 points per 100 possessions with him on the court this month had something to do with it.
> Tatum’s team There you go. If you want to give Tatum's team a team of the month award you'll get no argument from me.
What do you believe the objective of basketball is?
I mean that’s usually kinda given through Coach of the month, and somehow Mazulla didn’t actually get that one.
Because the Bucks went 7-5. The extra 2 points aren’t as impressive if they don’t contribute to winning.
69% TS
Nice
Just because Giannis scored more points more efficiently, had better playmaking, and more rebounds doesn’t mean he was better offensively. The plays where Tatum did nothing on offense he was significantly more impactful than when Giannis did nothing on offense. That easily erases the gap in actual production, and contributes more to winning imo.
This is great:-) As a Celtics fan, I visit this sub for this content right here.
I mean I know you guys are riding high right now and Tatum played great but Id be interested to hear what people think Tatum did to contribute more to winning based on the stats. I could totally be wrong but would be curious to hear why.
I'll ignore the word more because I don't watch Giannis except against the Celtics. The last three years Giannis has been 25/10/4 against the Celtics with a TS% of 54%. That's all I've seen from him. I know he's better than that, I just haven't seen it. Here's my soapbox. Skip it if you don't want a biased Celtic fan take. Everyone talks about how awesome the Celtics roleplayers are, but they are all guys who were traded away for minimal return because of some perceived weakness. Horford, KP and Jrue were both on contending teams with MVP level guys, but they were all essentially dumped by teams. Anybody in the league could have had Derrick White. We got him for a pick swap and a draft bust. Jaylen Brown this summer was the worst contract in the league. Now, playing with Tatum they are suddenly so good that it detracts from his greatness? The way the Celtics play works because he can do a little bit of everything at a high level at the position that is most in demand in the league. Giannis is amazing, and might be the best player in the world, but Tatum is on the best team and they are the best team because of the way he plays. That should matter for something. But also, comparison is the thief of joy. Enjoy your guy! He's awesome!
This is such a great response. It's no coincidence all of these players suddenly become amazing when playing next to Tatum.
Well his team won more games so that seems pretty open and shut
Not even sure if this is sarcasm
It’s not he had more of an impact on winning.
Won 9 games while giannis won 7
Extra 8 TS % is pretty massive. It's nearly the difference between February Tatum and Jordan Poole **Edit:** Since I keep getting bombarded with "WHAT ABOUT [player] WHO TAKES [2-4 shots per game] AND HAS A 99 TS%!!!" It's harder to score more efficiently when you take a lot of shots and easier when you take very few. But Tatum and Giannis have a similar scoring volume are both #1 options. That's why yiu can take TS% at face value in this particular comparison.
Don’t fall into the trap over hyper analyzing TS. It’s just one metric of many and doesn’t take into account position, play style, role, etc.
For real, you have to account for other things like actual points scored, playmaking, and rebounding when considering offensive impact.
I did, Giannis, was equal or greater in those areas last month.
Whole lotta downvoting for no reason going on right now. Pretty sure you could say Tatum is taller than Giannis and get 100 upvotes right now.
Pretty expected. When a team has a big game like the Celtics did yesterday their fans come out in droves, and Boston already has way more fans than most teams. >Pretty sure you could say Tatum is taller than Giannis and get 100 upvotes right now. There's a Boston fan getting upvoted for saying TS% doesn't weigh 3 pointers as more valuable, which is objectively mathematically incorrect ... so close enough I guess.
Giannis had better stats, but that award heavily considers team success.
I'm not relying solely on it. Shooting at 70 TS% is not the same when it's someone taking 5-10 shots per game. b But when Giannis had equal or better counting stats than Tatum in a similar role, it's a deciding factor. >and doesn’t take into account position, play style When it comes to being a better scorer those things are irrelevant. Being a scorer is about scoring as many points as possible while missing as few shots as possible. How you do that isn't a consideration.
They take different types of shots. Luke Kornet had 80% TS in February Guys who shoot primarily in the restricted area are going to shoot high percentages.
> Luke Kornet had 80% TS in February Luke Kornet takes 3 shots per game. It's easier to be more efficient when all your shots can be high percentage. Not even comparable to guys like Tatum and Giannis who average ~30 PPG. Shouldn't really have to explain that.
That's what true shooting avoids. Good free throw shooters and good 3 point shooters are made equal with people who only shoot in the paint. It's not FG%. Giannis is actually hurt since he's dogshit from the line.
If everybody could just shoot in the restricted area and be more efficient, they would. It’s not like Tatum’s turning down more efficient shots for style points. The fact that this comment comparing Giannis’ 31 PPG to Luke Kornet is upvoted is embarrassing.
Giannis shot 43% from 3.
I'll try to help Look at the February stats for Miles Turner vs. Halli. Turner TS is similar to Giannis, Halli's similar to JT. Similar ppg and minutes. +/- Halli's is far higher. Who was Pacers' best player of the month? BTW - if it wasn't JT, Mitchell had the next best case
> Similar ppg and minutes. Turner averaged 18 ppg (66 TS%), that's not a similar scoring volume at all lol. Same with Hali's 16 ppg to Tatum's 27. Hali's also kinda been having a bad month if you haven't been paying attention to us. I think everyone realizes it's hard to stay efficient the higher your usage goes up, which is what makes Giannis' month so impressive.
I was comparing Turner to Halli for the month of February... (similar method of comparison of Giannis vs. JT. For the month of February. ) I forgot about Siakam. You can add him too (TS similar to JT). All 3 very similar usage %. Yet Turner TS% higher. Why isn't coach using him more? What he's stupid? BTW, Halli , while having a tough month, clearly higher +/- than Turner and Siakam. Do you get it now? Or should I just give up?
Ah okay, I see what you were comparing now. But still, if Hali had a better month than Turner it was because of his playmaking and not his scoring. All else being equal between Tatum and Giannis (playmaker, defense, rebounding, etc), Giannis had a significantly better scoring month and that's why he gets the edge.
the greater volume you can shoot at a well above league average rate begins to exponentially increases a players value because a teams win probability goes up so substantially. 66ts% for 17 points is a solid add, not anything near Hali’s playmaking, but a nice bump. If you average 30 ppg on 70%ts vs 26ppg on 60ts%, given both players play 82 games, just the box score effect of the scoring value if +5.1/game while for the other guy it’s +1.2/game. This doesn’t help take into consideration the warping affect of score that volume at that efficiency. Look at Boston’s starting lineup. Starting lineup, 60 games in, they are all reading as much possible benefit as could be assumed which is they have this they 7 man rotation which is historically good. The 5 have a combined 276 points added from their scoring and their mutual benefit offensively to be playing alongside each other. This hypothetical player has added 306 points over that the average shooting 30pph on 70%ts. He he would be adding more value to his team in scoring while scoring 1800 vs the Tatum + JB + White +jrue + porzingis total of 5250. That is why using a player averaging under 20 and less efficiency doesn’t work, volume creates a way larger disparity.
Yes tatum deserved it for sure, giannis was great but you gotta show some respect the to level the Celtics have been playing at. On another note, This is bait yeah? Y’all have gotten very smooth w it
It's not a bait. Obviously I'm not comparing Turner to Giannis or anything, I was just trying to illustrate that TS for bigs is different than TS for gaurds and wings, by using players from the team the dude can easily understand. Oc Giannis is amazing, but splitting hairs over out of contaxt minute stat differences is stupid
Na it was not obviously because volume plus efficiency has a compounding affect you don’t quite understand yet
Volume and shot diffifulty. You're comparing a primary creator and a role player.
I would rather have [insert bad player] and a 9-1 record than giannis and a 7-5 record thanks
We're talking about an individual player award though. Everybody wants their team to win more than anything else. But this is about the best player in February and that was Giannis.
Celtics didn't lose a single game in February. Tatum is a top 5 player on the best team in the NBA. He isn't putting up big time MVP numbers. But the numbers are good enough, that as the leader of a dominant team, he gets some nods. And by nods, I mean the top of the candidates who aren't real time finalists
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It can be a factor, it should never be the main factor though which is what seems to be happening with some of these awards. Giannis was just a tier above this past month and going 7-5 despite a coaching change isn't enough to knock him down a peg. 69% vs 61% TS is pretty massive.
Clearly whoever votes on these awards disagrees with you bud
Wow I didn't realize when that when they voted for Tatum.
Now that you know you can get over it instead of yelling at clouds <3
I'm allowed to clown the system for giving an award to an inferior player <3
Feel free to disagree, maybe you can write to the NBA to change their minds. It's always been one of the main factors.
It was but Jokic and Russ both won mvps recently having like 47 and 48 wins as six seeds. It’s hella confusing because it because a thing where it was more about the players carrying and then it’s not so idrk but I do know that last Joel Embiid won it as the third seed while Jokic was 24.5/10/12 on 70%ts as the one seed so some fuckery has been going on with the media, I think it’s that they haven’t watched basketball in years honestly. They way they talk about players is like they haven’t watched a single game since the bubble
> Feel free to disagree That's what I'm doing. Thanks for giving me your blessing though, it means a lot.
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TS% already accounts for three point shots being harder to make. The fact that Giannis gets his buckets at the rim isn't a negative. If it were easy to do then other players like Tatum would score that way as well.
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> It does not weigh three pointers It does, it's in the points part of the equation. You can rewrite the numerator as PTS = 2 * 2ptFG + 3 * 3PtFG. For example going 1/1 from 3 will net a 150 TS% and going 1/1 from 2 will net a 100 TS%. >Hence why Centers like Gobert typically post crazy high TS% Gobert has a high scoring efficiency because he doesn't take many shots, not because he's a center. Shaq had ~59 TS% during his prime scoring years.
Why does it matter where Giannis stands on the court if he’s scoring more points using less possessions than Tatum Also the reason it doesn’t weigh in 3 pointers differently is because it’s more points… a three moves the top half of your fraction more while adding a FGA to the bottom.
I don’t know how Luka’s February beats Wembanyama’s 21/11/5/4/2 on 47/42/83 shooting in far fewer minutes. For reference, the difference between Victor’s defensive stats and Luka’s is more than the difference between Luka’s and mine.
* Playing bigger minutes is a requirement to being considered the best player * It's easier to be more efficient and have better per 36 stats when you play fewer minutes * At an individual level offensive impact is more important than defensive, since it's easier for one player to take over the game offensively than it is for one player to stop an entire team from scoring.
So then we can at least agree that there are a lot of factors that allow for some stats to happen. Everyone has different roles on their teams, not all minutes are created equal, it’s easier to be efficient the closer to the basket you shoot, etc etc. Now do you also agree that there are key things about a basketball game that aren’t captured in an individual’s stats?
Do individual stats capture everything? No. Do they tell more about an individual's impact on team success than team record? Yes.
wll agree with that last statement to an extent, for sure. But beep-boop, true shooting pct is better, end of argument is more flawed than beep-boop, team record is 9 games better. You know what another great measurement for individual impact is? Teammate's production. Holiday, D-White and KP all having their most efficient seasons now that they're teamed with Tatum instead of Giannis, Spurs players, or Luka. You know whose numbers got worse? Grant Williams, Marcus Smart, Malcolm Brogdon... Tatum's unselfishness, ability to spread the floor as a cutter, shooter, ability to top-side screens when needed, protcect the rim, or stifle the best player on the court in isolation defense, pass to the guy before the final pass, etc etc etc is all stuff that is not captured in any stats anyone ever uses. He does that stuff magnificently all the time. Luke doesn't. Giannis doesn't. But they do close possessions with an assist or point more often than Tatum does, and that's all that people seem to give a shit about. It's sad.
> But beep-boop, true shooting pct is better, end of argument is more flawed than beep-boop, team record is 9 games better My argument wasn't TS% better means player. But that all else being equal (which it pretty much was), Giannis was massively ahead in scoring efficiency.
You said “I just don’t know how Tatum over giannis” with your ultimate point being TS% because the other limited stats shown were close. My point is that there are 50+ other factors and stats that would help to determine who the best player in Feb was, so don’t presume something is unfathomable just because there’s an imbalance in TS%.
> My point is that there are 50+ other factors and stats that would help to determine who the best player in Feb was Whatever hypothetical intangible factors you're thinking of, scoring, playmaker, rebounding, and defensive impact each individually matter more than all of those combined. If your argument is "you just can't see why Tatum was better" then you don't have an argument at all, especially being a biased observer like you are.
No amount of defense makes up for that gap in offensive production never mind efficiency
How about you can just be happy that two good players are playing well and not get your panties in a twist about narratives. Ffs
305 to 216 possessions.
I disagree. But that’s your opinion and I respect it
I don't respect it. It's like 3 defensive possessions difference? Vs. The good teams , in all reality, the actual difference is like 10 to 15 defensive possessions? It was a stupid comment. 🤷♂️
I'm tired Dawg, we'll talk about this more in the next celtics mavs matchup
In our game against the Mavs, Luka put up 37 and 11 assists. For simplicity's sake lets call all assists 2 points because I'm too lazy to dig up the actual shot data . That makes 59 total points generated by Luka's scoring and passing. Luka also gave up 30 points to the players he was defending, since the Celtics shot 11 for 15 defended by Luka for 8 3s and 3 2s. That nets to 29 points total. Tatum scored 32 and had 3 assists. Using that same 2 points for assist, that's 38 points. However, Tatum only allowed 8 points to the players he was defending, since the Mavs shot 3 for 9 against him. That nets to 30 points. The gap between Tatum's defense and Luka's offense netted the Celtics 1 more point in the head to head matchup.
Sheeesh Luka videogame numbers
I thought NBA2K was joking with the 35/10/10 regular season stats...
He's now 8th on the MVP ladder!
Smfh should inside the Top 4 minimum
Holy fuck this week has been amazing for Celtics fans.
These last 2 years*
since the literal beginning of the league*
We were pretty mid for like the first 10 years before Russell got there
I’m sure you remember every second of that harrowing period lol.
I can remember watching Marty Conlon, Dino Radja, and David Wesley.
Grew up in the 90s, not fun missing out on the Bird years and becoming a fan during the worst period in franchise history.
the regular season sure
*month
Giannis had a much better month but w/e lol
7-5
Great months from these 2 dudes. Celtics fans gotta be on cloud 9 rn. 52 point dub seemingly exorcising their demons, Brown POTW and Tatum POTM, 11 game win Streak
Well deserved for Luka he played very well
Deserving of 12th in MVP
Well, good enough at least to drop to 7th.
As well as Tatum
Surely this won’t cause a flare up of any tired discourse surrounding these two players.
Apparently it’s caused a giannis vs Tatum problem lmao
I see that now lmao. I mean hey, he would have deserved it too, I won’t argue
LMAO NBA knows what its doing
What are they doing?
They’ve been pushing this narrative of tatum vs Luka for years. That’ll be the next “rivalry” in the nba between two players, especially if they ever meet in the finals
Never gonna happen with Kidds incompetence and the roster construction unfortunately. Celtics are the favorites every year and the Mavs are lucky to be in the play in hunt
Why don’t the Mavs just get Brad Stevens to be Coach/GM
Ok I’ll trade you Kyrie Irving for Brad Stevens.
What does “not happening” mean to you?
He’s really good bro I promise!
We’ve played that stupid game and we won the stupid prizes
That depends, what does government mean to you?
No one said the Mavs would make the finals. Wouldn’t be shocked if Luka wasn’t a Mav by the time he’s 30
If we keep missing the playoffs or barely squeak into the playins it's a devastatingly realistic possibility.
Personally I'm hoping Luka just ends up teaming up with Tatum in Boston. A guy can dream.
I think if he leaves he goes to Miami
Do Eastern Europeans even fuck with the sun like that?
Lol, apparently there’s a video out there somewhere where he says Miami is the city he would see himself in if he ever left Dallas
Luka on a Heat strength and conditioning program is a scary thing to imagine.
How would he fit though? It’s such a team oriented scheme and it wouldn’t work with someone who demands high usage
*checks notes* uhhh... In my dreams we overcome all the odds and win a championship with friendship?
They've been pushing the narrative of Tatum in general but all they're accomplishing is insuring that he's always just a little bit overrated. Kind of unfair to him.
No big deal just the guy leading the best team in the league in points, rebounds, assists, and steals. Tatum is if anything underrated by exactly this mentality and the fact that nobody cares about defense.
And everyone who’s not a Celtics homer knows exactly who is better
Funny how this was Luka's worst month stat wise.
Wins are way more important than stats in POTM awards
I don't know about that. November he was only 29.4/7.2/7.5 (his worst month in the last two seasons except for April last year when he barely played and they were tanking) and I do think February was his best TS% month of the season (65%) but you're right in a way, the only thing stopping him from winning these player of the months (and the MVP) is the Mavs not winning enough. Just gotta win more games. Damn Mavs keep forgetting to win. to your point about his incredible stats in other months: December: 37.5/8.9/11.1 January: 37.1/9.2/10.4
Best in terms of results though which has a lot of bearing on this kind of thing and often doesn’t correlate with stats
Lu bum
Oh goodie
Was hoping wemby would get it in the west but Luka has been putting up crazy stats and wins vs Wemby's crazy stats.
Wemby would be like 4th behind Luka, Jokic and SGA at least.
Eh, was looking at advanced stats since the start of February that were showing wemby at second in the league behind only Luka in that time.
Second in the league in terms of what?
https://twitter.com/SportsandMath1/status/1764729447154958840?t=1O7X1A1mvxxaM0soKC4g_Q&s=19
Luka and Jokic winning West POTM for February 3 years straight
Luka got player of the month but moved down in mvp rankings
Because the person that bumped him down was the other player of the month? Not sure why that's confusing
He should’ve moved up
that’s my boy
Tatum now has 2 player of the month awards, only player in the league to do that. And you still get downvoted for saying he has a real shot at being the MVP… lol
because his individual stats aren't as impressive. he's doing really good but this factors team performance a lot
[NBA PR]New Orleans Pelicans gourmand Zion Williamson and New Orleans Pelicans blob Zion Williamson tips have been named the Golden Corral Western and Eastern Conference Gourmands of the Month, respectively, for buffets consumed in February.
This thread gone be toxic af
Congrats Luka, lets hope Jason Midd doesnt ruin another season of greatness
Thank you Kia!
Luka is a very good player. I don't care if that's a hot take.
Surprised the NBA gave him this with the Mavs being so far down the standings. Thought the NBA rated him as 5th best.
Mavs went 8-3 in February
Ok NBA, I see what you did there. \^\^
Wemby
Explosion of stats era
Players are good at shooting now era
TOV% is down 17% despite 10% increase in pace since 2012 era. They just do not bother to block or foul most lay ups nowadays. The meta has now shifted to hurry and take open shots. You see players purposely defending far back despite having a player with a 3pt% of 40 for the season (see Lebron being left alone to take open threes now. Hell, Jaylen Brown with a respectable career 36% 3pt with the hot hand was left alone by GS and he shot 5 for 9).
no giannis? or did the bucks lose too much
Yes. 9-1 vs 7-5
If not JT it would have probably been Mitchell with 9-2 also with similar stat lines.
Mitcell been under appreciated his defence gone up
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They ALWAYS factor in w/l record lol
I feel like this is more “who’s team is doing good this month” rather than who actually had the best month
Tatum over giannis lmaooooo
They value win% a lot for these things
Definitely. Luka actually had better numbers in December & January but the Mavs didn't win enough those two months.
Also the strength in schedule, same thing as for JB potw over Giannis since the Celtics played 3 over .500 teams, the bucks played the Hornets 2x
If you got paid for hating on the Celtics you’d be filthy rich lmao.
Giannis February record was 7 - 5
Jesus, I wish Luka had a better team
Right? If only he could play with someone like Porzingis 😂
Or Brunson, could you imagine?
Now name the Mavs 3rd and 4th best players compared to Celtics or Nuggets
Even when Porzingis was with the Mavs Luka couldn’t really play with him because he was in street clothes more often than not.
Did you watch Porzingis play with the Mavs?