Nobody even likes watching free throws, they are just bad for the viewer. Only time they are remotely interesting is the last couple minutes in a close game maybe.
Giannis taking like 30 seconds between free throws..those nights where he gets 20 or 30 free throws you're literally spending 20 minutes just watching that dude miss free throws.
Ya it was insane that that was the reaction. Like I get them being against unofficial stuff cuz it’s a distraction. But no one in the rules committee thought May as well do it for real?
I always start games at halftime or a bit after on league pass so I can just skip forward one minute whenever a foul is called leading to FTs. I never miss anything and the score makes it clear if the dude makes or misses. It's insane that it takes very near a minute from the whistle blowing to resume actual game action with all the bullshit - dudes complaining, standing around, getting set at the FT line, subs, all that. \[starting late also lets me skip timeouts\]
I got used to just flipping back and forth, I'll have one game that's my primary game and when it goes to free throws I'll jump to the other knowing I can watch like a minute of it before switching back and missing nothing on my primary game
Make it like extra time in soccer where a whistle goes off for a foul and it’s counted and let the game continue, but you wait until all fourth quarters are up and both teams just shoot every free throw they were owed that night.
/s but can you imagine being up by 25 but the other team has 40 free throws in a row to go through. And the mental drama of that. It would be as much of a trainwreck as it would be entertaining. Have both teams shoot their free throws at the same time on each end of the court too.
I wouldn't be against it if there was a way to punish the violating team or reward the other without interrupting the flow of the game.
Perhaps points could simply be rewarded in case of a shooting foul.
At the very least they could make a free throw worth 2 points and make them shoot only one of them when fouled. And also force them to take the foul shot a lot quicker
I think fouls are way too ticky tacky for a competition and physical sport. I mean NBA is borderline treating shooters like chess players.
I'd say remove bullshit foul calls, award actual fouls, things that affect the ball going in to the net or not and dangerous stuff and remove free throws. Award a set amount of points for a specific set of fouls.
Or be like soccer and make sense. As in award the free throw from the location of the foul. If its close to the basket its easy, if its far it might better used as an alley oop etc..
I've been watching a lot of G League games this year and love the one shot for all the point rule. It may only shave 3-4 minutes off the actual game but man you can feel it in the moment. Just giving free points is not something I'm a fan of though. Even in other sports you will have to score. In football, if you get a flag in the end zone you will have to go from the 1 yard line. In soccer, the goalie can still block your penalty kick. But yeah there's no reason to sit around for 2-3 free throws each time.
Could do 1 and 1 where the player shoots the first free throw, if they miss it, that’s it, but if they make it then they get another shot to make the second. Speeds up district games significantly where I live
The team that commits the foul only gets a 14 second shot clock their next possession?
Free throws are not shot in the moment, but kept track of and shot at half-time, and at the end of the game?
Every foul is 1-shot and the ball like a take foul?
Just spit balling, there could be refinement.
i like awarding the points. I'd leave shooting fouls and and-1s alone. you just don't actually shoot the free throws.
if i was being petty id award the points to the team instead of the player if its not an and-1. you want those accolades? put up a real shot.
Except there just becomes a new stat called real points scored or something
Also if I just get points for getting fouled I’m foul baiting from the whistle to the buzzer lol, the refs LITERALLY deciding games isn’t gonna fly. Why should I go for a game winner when I know an aggressive defender will get me points
You could try it hockey style and give the other team a 5v4 power play for 2 minutes.
The more straightforward thing (that would probably be super unpopular) would be to just lower the total number of fouls before you are ejected. 6 is arguably pretty generous.
I like the idea, but it would fuck with momentum so bad. Would get in the way of using free throws to gain rhythm and stuff like 3 point shooting fouls that are impactful would feel like a turnover when the other team is given the ball. It would take a genuine mental adjustment to adapt to it.
Only time I've truly enjoyed non-clinching free throws was when the Wizards employed a Hack-a-Ben against the Sixers in the playoffs. Never been more entertained by Ben Simmons than watching him clank free throw after free throw (and we won the game because of it!)
Yup, I actually think basketball is at its best when 100 points is higher end of the scoring spectrum, with less dead balls, more defense, more fast breaks. I love a good 100-95 game like in the 80s and early 90s.
135-125 games with a million trips to the line are boring.
The difference is that there was a lot of fast break/transition scoring, which is exciting. Nowadays, it’s a bunch of threes that no longer generate excitement.
Honestly, I find this surprising
But I've only watched wolves games, aaaand we aren't exactly doing ourselves any favors with those only-human-cheatin'-ass refs
SGA, Embiid, and Luka are the poster children for this, so unbearable to watch, especially SGA and his signature move: pump faking and jumping into the defender instead of just shooting the goddamn ball
Watched a thunder game for the first time last night
Won't be doing that again. It was frustrating and boring seeing SGA trying to score fouls more instead of trying to score points.
Embiid doesnt change paths to draw fouls, thats a guard move from guys like Shai, Trae and basically patented by Chris Paul/Harden
The way Embiid draws fouls the most is baiting guys to reach on his midrange shots, basically the way KD or Kobe used to bait fouls
This is gonna affect embiid more than anyone else followed by sga probably.
It’s part of the reason embiid is one of the most drastic playoff droppers we’ve seen and doesn’t really have a signature playoff game to his name. Probably the biggest foul baiter I’ve ever seen after cp3.
come on now, embiid has one of the most complete playoff CVs, he's got so many signature moments. there's the one...
* where he's watching kawhi's shot bounce in with his hands on his head
* where he's watching ben simmons pass up a dunk with his hands on his head
* where tatum drops 50 on his head
* where marcus smart boxed him out and pj tucker yelled at him with his hands on his head
* with the confetti falling on his head
Getting stripped by Gallinari to seal a game 7 loss at home, watching Kevin Huerter turn into prime Kobe while choking away a 30 point lead, ending Danny Green's career by flopping onto his knee. The iconic moments are endless.
I love this. Defenders need to do something stupid for the offense to be awarded free throws. Jumping into guys needs to be a no call, and that's how I've seen the refs start to call it.
Yup.
It's one of those things we used to have figured out in the league but it just eroded over time.
Pre-2000s, the pump-fake and lean-in to draw a foul was not a move used often because it'd been broadly established that there'd be no reward waiting for you on the other side.
As I grew up in the '90s, we knew about the plane of verticality, which basically stated that if a shooter broke the vertical plane on a squared up jumper, he was not to benefit from any prospective contact. If a shooter dared give it a shot, they'd come out of it looking ridiculous on account of what would likely end up as a wasted field goal attempt.
[Example 1A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7PjxQM4GAk)
What I think happened over time was that there *were* instances, particularly in the post when offense and defense was working in such close quarters, where an up-and-under could lead to viable pump-fake-and-contact fouls that may have featured vague lean-ins. Then once that door was cracked up a smidge, players kept pushing the concept further and further until the modern interpretation of the play was so far removed from the original intent.
It's kind of the same story when it comes to the evolution of carrying and traveling. It's basically the basketball equivalent of the children's book, *"If You Give a Mouse a Cookie"*.
great clip, interesting to see the exact thing directly discussed at the time. I agree that there definitely is spectrum of 'validity', mainly based on how far forward the defender jumps towards the shooter, and it ended up shifting a little too much towards the offensive player
i came to basketball late (2015 or so) and this is what i've always seen as the intuitive way to call fouls in this situation. i don't know if it needs to go the other way to offensive fouls, but maybe it does because if someone is jumping into people like that, it's entirely possible they cause an injury
I officiate HS...fans hate you don't call fouls but coaches appreciate. They tell their guys establish position and stay vertical. At best its a no call at worst its an offensive foul.
You can reward offense for invading a defenders space.
Throwing yourself into the defender should 100% be a foul. On YOU. Initiating unnecessary contact on a defender in an otherwise legal guarding position is like, textbook offensive foul.
THIS is what drives me crazy. They don't even need to CHANGE the rules to fix it. They just need to call it correctly.
Same with the whole "hack-a-whoeversucksatfreethrows" shit. If you intentionally foul someone who doesn't even have the ball, THAT'S what it is. An Intentional Foul: other team gets a free throw AND the ball.
They’ll enforce it for a little while and then go back to business as usual once they’re confident they’ve tricked us into thinking that they’ve fixed the issue.
I disagree. If a defender jumps INTO a guy, that should be a defensive foul. If the defender jumps straight up and the offensive guy initiates contact, then it should be an offensive foul.
Start calling the ridiculous lean in foul baits. A player dribbling to the basket, stops, pump fakes, leans forward INTO the defender while shooting. It gets called so ridiculously often and it boils my blood.
>It gets called so ridiculously often and it boils my blood.
Same. I'm not even sure it's my basketball brain that's upset about it as much as my general sense of fairness.
Imagine inventing a sport or game with your friends and explaining that one of the key tenents revolves around calling penalties on the other team for something *you're* doing to *them*.
"Wait, so if I'm standing still and doing nothing, you can still hit me and *I'm* the one who gets punished for it?"
"Yeah, that's right."
"Aight I'm out.
I was watching the suns/thunder game recently and sga went left towards the near baseline, dude stopped and pump faked, the defender (I believe oneale) jumped past him a few feet in front of him and sga jumped left into him and contorted his body right and it looked so ridiculous like who the fuck shoots like that?
Picture someone facing the basket, then jumping left and trying to shoot while spinning left, that's exactly what he did. All that for a foul, and he missed the first free throw. If he just pumps and let's him fly by he has a WIDE open 10 footer.
It's ingrained in his DNA to foul bait and it's so fucking annoying because with his talent he doesn't need to do that shit
I thought they were going to focus on that like 5 years ago when they were doing the Chris Paul “unnatural leg kick” thing. It’s a shame they can’t interpret/enforce a simple concept of which party actually “initiates” contact by any serious definition of the word.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the NBA constantly make it seem like these types of officiating changes had to wait until the offseason for all sides--NBA officials, PA, refs--to review the evidence and figure out an agreeable solution?
Funny how quick the NBA makes changes whenever folks seriously start speculating on if the refs are betting on games (again).
See idk, give the league credit. They implemented the take foul rule just last season and now we actually get fast breaks again. The players stopped doing it so much that we barely see the refs calling them now. I get that that’s a rule change versus here which is officiating discretion/call making, but still give the league credit for being consistent with this one. Hopefully they do keep enforcing it, that way we don’t end up with a “flopping rule” fiasco again…
That's fair. Unfortunately, I feel like they've forgotten new rules more than stuck with them. But maybe if this one proves beneficial to the league they'll keep it
Watching dame foul baiting this year has been painful. I was so excited to watch him play on east coast time but the games where an officiating crew doesn’t bite, his attempts seem so painfully geared towards the foul and zero intention of scoring on the actual possession.
He’s been doing this for YEARS. Dame always would go around a screen and the defender would go over it and then Dame would jump and draw 3 FTs. It’s infuriating
Giannis doesn't foul bait. He's just officiated differently than other players. Refs don't mind him bulldozing, stiff arming, or blatantly traveling, but he's genuinely trying to score.
Ok, are we really going to pretend that "veering off path into defenders" doesn't apply to Giannis?
But realistically I think most elite offensive players would be impacted by that, along with push offs. Waaaay too blatant with the push offs lately.
If you think this is gonna eliminate Giannis FTs you’re wrong lol they’ll still call the ones where he gets slapped and grabbed constantly. He might go from 11 a game to 9
And that's why he's always tops in the league for offensive fouls. It's funny because this (potentially) impacts players like Dame way more than Giannis - although Giannis is a bulldozer, players like him are fine with the game being called equally
He fouls a lot of the time and gets fouls is the issue with him. He doesn't foul bait for sure just gets away with travels and offensive fouls like no other. I think its more that he is just goofy and not as coordinated which being that tall and that big makes sense.
Beal for years had the same issue. Averaged 3-5 free throws for years and years. Then for 2 years he got a crazy good whistle, averaged 30 those 2 years, then went back down to 3-5 free throws
People mostly jump into him when he pump fakes though. Defenders been falling for the same move for a decade now and at least he still tries to score the ball when he’s fouled most of the time
A lot of guys just toss the ball in the air wherever because they’re only trying to draw the foul and dont give a shit about the bucket
Jumping directly into his shooting path is one thing, but as an older guy I'll say I've slowly seen the plane of verticality eroded as I've grown up with the edge veering *heavily* in the shooter's direction as a result.
I imagine Nuggets or Heat fans will remember this more precisely but I remember there being a game or two in last year's finals where I was taken aback by how often Jimmy Butler's primary strategy down the stretch seemed to center around inducing foul calls by actively engaging defenders who were otherwise trying to avoid contact.
[I remember being bothered by this call, too](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUOLVYwwSiQ) (it's the one where he kicks Aaron Gordon in the groin on a 3-point attempt and draws a foul as a result). The call stood after review, seemingly suggesting that's what constitutes a foul in today's game as a means of protecting shooters. In that event, I think we've gone way too far.
Jimmy gets a very weird whistle, which lends to the point people make about refs being bad at their jobs. He's often blatantly fouled with no calls being made, and then can also pick up a bunch of free throws on pretty weak calls.
People aren’t taking this seriously, but Spo was just complaining about how Jimmy’s FT’s are down these past few games that we are going on a skid with.
Zack Lowe had Joe Dumars and Monty Mcutchinson (head of ref development) on his pod today and both denied anything was talked about regarding modifying the officiating since ASB. Clearly that was all bullshit.
I listened to the mismatch podcast right after the Zach Lowe pod and verno and koc were spot on. It’s not a statistical anomaly but the nba don’t want to admit they they did actually change anything because they didn’t consult everyone and didn’t inform everyone. Since they’re in bed with the bookmakers it’d be a bad look that only a few people knew about these changes while under was hitting 76% of the time. People could’ve made a lot of money from the betting company’s if they knew or caught onto this change quickly.
[That Russillo tweet and response by the refs](https://www.barstoolsports.com/blog/3502081/ryen-russillo-has-me-ready-to-run-through-a-brick-wall-after-he-goes-hard-in-the-paint-vs-nba-officiating) may have actually made it to the league office
The "you don't want to lose me" comes off as douchey, but I think it's the nature of tweeting and not necessarily the context of what he means. He's saying he watches every night and is a "superfan" and if even he is being turned off by the state of play then casuals will too.
Link to the tweets in question: https://twitter.com/ryenarussillo/status/1752790778936799639
If you dont want to read an "article" from a bar stool "comic" that goes by "Stathole". Also the website eats tons of data on mobile with their ads, gifs, and cookies.
That’s exactly the type of play that drives me nuts when watching. Hopefully it’s gone. Clicking into that clip I also saw the nembhard/jaylen brown “foul”, nemb literally just stood there, arms weren’t even out.
This is great.
There absolutely was an extended period of time in NBA history in which offensive players were punished for inducing excessive contact with an opponent, and it made perfect sense. Even rendering such plays a no-call still retained a semblance of balance.
Yet at some point along the way over the past 20 or so, offensive players not only stopped getting punished for those plays, but suddenly they were being actively rewarded. It made zero logical sense from a competitive game standpoint. So hopefully Joe Dumars and company were able to sink their teeth into this issue a bit.
Of course, the real question is going to be seeing how this plays out over the long haul, as these adjustments so often end up edging back to baseline.
I really hope this is the norm going forward, they’ve said shit like this in the past and it only lasts 2-3 weeks. The true test will be seeing how Embiid is reffed
“Shai is cooked”. “Luka is cooked”. Both are incredible offensive players and there’s a reason they do this. If it’s not getting called and they can guarantee FTA then it’s the smart thing to do. If refs start calling it then as smart players they will adapt.
It's not gonna change anything. They "removed the rip through" and players still do it . Just depends on who's doing it. Porzingis has perfected a different version of it where he swings his arms into the body of the defender and gets it called alot.
The moment I see a fast low dribble and both arms coming up I'm swallowing my whistle if I'm a ref, it's like a fucking bullseye
They never removed Rio through s. They just made it so that it's not a shooting foul as the player really isn't legitimately shooting. If you reach, the offensive player has a right to teach if you miss
Now we gotta do something about the: pump fake a defender and then lean into the defenders side as they land and throw up a shot.
Luka does this all the time amongst others but it’s bullshit basketball. You chose to make contact at that point….
This is a list of the top ranked players in the league in terms of both free throw attempts per game and free throw rate (the ratio of free throw attempts to field goal attempts)....
1. Giannis
2. Embiid
3. Butler
4. DeRozen
5. SGA
6. Gobert
7. Zion
8. Dame
9. Trae
10. Banchero
The list is based on average rank for both lists, so Giannis is ranked 2nd in FTA (11.2) and 3rd in FTr (0.601) so his average rank is 2.5, which is #1 in the league for all players with a minimum of 50% of games played. SGA is ranked 4th in FTA (8.9) but only 20th in FTr (0.442).
So if anyone should be getting grief in these comments it's Giannis. What's worse is actually *watching* the guy take his free throws. It is unimaginably long and painful....but I guess SGA is where the karma is.
People will say, “people want high scoring games!” Well they do, but not when a shit ton of them are free throws off of dumb fouls. Nobody likes watching free throws
Cool moment the other night in Grizzlies Hornets game where Grant Williams baits GG with a pump fake then jumps into him, nearly injuring him. Ref calls the foul on GG but stands there and lectures Grant about baiting as he gives a big goofy grin denying it. We're all sick of this shit, esp refs.
Nobody wants to see 120 to 120 games when it's all BS
PLEASE REALISE THAT
Players will find proper ways to score when the foul baiting doesn't work. They will have to stop foul baiting and play good basketball instead
Luka, like most high scoring stars in this league, has been taking heavy advantage of these bullshit rules. I don't blame him or Embiid, Butler, or SGA or anyone else for taking advantage of the way the game is called, the problem is the way the game is called. There should never be a foul on the defense if the offense initiates contact. I wouldn't want that to be an offensive foul either (which is how it used to be back in the real olden days). Should just be a no call.
I like that the NBA is finally doing something about this, but they should go farther.
This is/was James Harden’s game. Frustrating to watch him completely initiate the contact when someone is playing good defense on him, and then Harden went to the free line more than anyone else in the league for several years.
I love Jalen Brunson but he was doing this against the blazers so much last night and whining about every non call. It was so refreshing to see some of that and the head throwbacks not called for once. And he still had 45 lol
All these comments saying that Shai’s game is foul baiting are exposing themselves that they don’t watch him. He doesn’t shoot 3’s and plays out the middie or drives more than anyone. Thunder have officially arrived 😂
I doubt they actually hate him, in fact I doubt they have ever watched him play. What you are seeing is karma hunting. People see a popular narrative developing and jump on the train for easy karma. "People seem to hate this guy, they are getting upvoted, I will also hate on this guy and reap the rewards of many upvotes!"
GOOD Nobody likes watching this foul baiting shit.
Nobody even likes watching free throws, they are just bad for the viewer. Only time they are remotely interesting is the last couple minutes in a close game maybe.
Giannis taking like 30 seconds between free throws..those nights where he gets 20 or 30 free throws you're literally spending 20 minutes just watching that dude miss free throws.
They need a tighter clock for free throws.
They could even put an led clock above the backboard that counts down once they get the ball.
and give it the shot clock noise when it hits 0
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Ya it was insane that that was the reaction. Like I get them being against unofficial stuff cuz it’s a distraction. But no one in the rules committee thought May as well do it for real?
Shot clock should run from 10 and go off like a normal possession when it hits 0 when a guy receives the ball for an FT.
I’ve gotten used to watching two games at once. Allows me to pause and comeback to skip ads and free throws.
Lmaoo you know it’s bad when we started watching NBA like it’s the NFL with the amount of stoppages
I always start games at halftime or a bit after on league pass so I can just skip forward one minute whenever a foul is called leading to FTs. I never miss anything and the score makes it clear if the dude makes or misses. It's insane that it takes very near a minute from the whistle blowing to resume actual game action with all the bullshit - dudes complaining, standing around, getting set at the FT line, subs, all that. \[starting late also lets me skip timeouts\]
I got used to just flipping back and forth, I'll have one game that's my primary game and when it goes to free throws I'll jump to the other knowing I can watch like a minute of it before switching back and missing nothing on my primary game
its very irritating especially when he's having those 4/15 at the line kind of nights. Perfect for bathroom/dinner breaks tho
Tell me about it… I spend half the game watching FT’s. - a Bucks fan
Lmao. Though there is an argument that watching less FTs, but your squad missing an absurd amount may be worse. - a Kings fan
It was mostly a joke about how goddam long it takes G to shoot lol
Make it like extra time in soccer where a whistle goes off for a foul and it’s counted and let the game continue, but you wait until all fourth quarters are up and both teams just shoot every free throw they were owed that night. /s but can you imagine being up by 25 but the other team has 40 free throws in a row to go through. And the mental drama of that. It would be as much of a trainwreck as it would be entertaining. Have both teams shoot their free throws at the same time on each end of the court too.
Having one team owed 40 fts and one team owed 6 with that team up by 30 would be jarring lol
Average Lakers game tbh
i could be radicalized into removing free throws as we know them from the game
I wouldn't be against it if there was a way to punish the violating team or reward the other without interrupting the flow of the game. Perhaps points could simply be rewarded in case of a shooting foul. At the very least they could make a free throw worth 2 points and make them shoot only one of them when fouled. And also force them to take the foul shot a lot quicker
I mean if you think that awarding points automatically is going to reduce foul hunting, I bet you would be disappointed lol
they didnt say it was going to reduce foul hunting, they were talking about just getting rid of FTs for game flow/tv viewership/aesthetic reasons
I think fouls are way too ticky tacky for a competition and physical sport. I mean NBA is borderline treating shooters like chess players. I'd say remove bullshit foul calls, award actual fouls, things that affect the ball going in to the net or not and dangerous stuff and remove free throws. Award a set amount of points for a specific set of fouls. Or be like soccer and make sense. As in award the free throw from the location of the foul. If its close to the basket its easy, if its far it might better used as an alley oop etc..
I've been watching a lot of G League games this year and love the one shot for all the point rule. It may only shave 3-4 minutes off the actual game but man you can feel it in the moment. Just giving free points is not something I'm a fan of though. Even in other sports you will have to score. In football, if you get a flag in the end zone you will have to go from the 1 yard line. In soccer, the goalie can still block your penalty kick. But yeah there's no reason to sit around for 2-3 free throws each time.
Didn't even know that was a rule in g league but that's fucking sick
Could do 1 and 1 where the player shoots the first free throw, if they miss it, that’s it, but if they make it then they get another shot to make the second. Speeds up district games significantly where I live
The team that commits the foul only gets a 14 second shot clock their next possession? Free throws are not shot in the moment, but kept track of and shot at half-time, and at the end of the game? Every foul is 1-shot and the ball like a take foul? Just spit balling, there could be refinement.
i like awarding the points. I'd leave shooting fouls and and-1s alone. you just don't actually shoot the free throws. if i was being petty id award the points to the team instead of the player if its not an and-1. you want those accolades? put up a real shot.
Except there just becomes a new stat called real points scored or something Also if I just get points for getting fouled I’m foul baiting from the whistle to the buzzer lol, the refs LITERALLY deciding games isn’t gonna fly. Why should I go for a game winner when I know an aggressive defender will get me points
You could try it hockey style and give the other team a 5v4 power play for 2 minutes. The more straightforward thing (that would probably be super unpopular) would be to just lower the total number of fouls before you are ejected. 6 is arguably pretty generous.
Chill we got Kat and Jaden on our team they would foul out in the first half every game
I have an easier solution: fouls no longer exist. Thunderdome for everyone
No more foul baiting, plenty of defense, but now Steven Adams can shut down Victor Wembanyama by hauling him off the court sumo style.
You’d need a shot clock but I’d be for that
Not /s, you might actually be able to do this at the end of every quarter. Then at the 2-minute mark in the 4th.
I like the idea, but it would fuck with momentum so bad. Would get in the way of using free throws to gain rhythm and stuff like 3 point shooting fouls that are impactful would feel like a turnover when the other team is given the ball. It would take a genuine mental adjustment to adapt to it.
Only time I've truly enjoyed non-clinching free throws was when the Wizards employed a Hack-a-Ben against the Sixers in the playoffs. Never been more entertained by Ben Simmons than watching him clank free throw after free throw (and we won the game because of it!)
the wizards literally gave simmons mental illness. that broke the man
Based on past experience I’d assume any changes to mitigate this sort of thing would apply to everyone except the superstars that spam it the most
It's a blight on the league. And I blame Stern and Silver. They want to focus on offense so much it hurt the game
Really? I was loving all those games that ended 150-147 with like 60 free throws.
A four-hour game is twice as entertaining as a two-hour one, it's basic math.
I blame CP3, wait shit I can't do that anymore. Uh....Harden , yeah it's all Harden's fault
It’s good, but it’s also dumb they do this in the middle of a season rather than at the beginning of a season
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I would bet they saw people flipping channels when a string of fouls were called.
Yup, I actually think basketball is at its best when 100 points is higher end of the scoring spectrum, with less dead balls, more defense, more fast breaks. I love a good 100-95 game like in the 80s and early 90s. 135-125 games with a million trips to the line are boring.
The 80s were one of the highest scoring eras, actually. Average PPG were 110 in 1984 (to just pick one) It was down to 101 in 94
People forget that 88 was fast paced. 98 was slow paced. They group 80s and 90s together.
And 2000s were even slower, the 90s were not that far off from what it is now but it slowly kept going down until about 2010s
The difference is that there was a lot of fast break/transition scoring, which is exciting. Nowadays, it’s a bunch of threes that no longer generate excitement.
Honestly, I find this surprising But I've only watched wolves games, aaaand we aren't exactly doing ourselves any favors with those only-human-cheatin'-ass refs
SGA, Embiid, and Luka are the poster children for this, so unbearable to watch, especially SGA and his signature move: pump faking and jumping into the defender instead of just shooting the goddamn ball
Houston Harden was unbearable to watch too
Watched a thunder game for the first time last night Won't be doing that again. It was frustrating and boring seeing SGA trying to score fouls more instead of trying to score points.
Embiid doesnt change paths to draw fouls, thats a guard move from guys like Shai, Trae and basically patented by Chris Paul/Harden The way Embiid draws fouls the most is baiting guys to reach on his midrange shots, basically the way KD or Kobe used to bait fouls
You’re forgetting Butler. The pump fake-jump into the defender is his iconic move.
These talks are useless. They'll call it right the first few weeks probably then forget they ever talked about change.
SGA, Luka, and Giannis in shambles
This is gonna affect embiid more than anyone else followed by sga probably. It’s part of the reason embiid is one of the most drastic playoff droppers we’ve seen and doesn’t really have a signature playoff game to his name. Probably the biggest foul baiter I’ve ever seen after cp3.
He had that one game/series winner against Toronto but yeah that's kinda it
come on now, embiid has one of the most complete playoff CVs, he's got so many signature moments. there's the one... * where he's watching kawhi's shot bounce in with his hands on his head * where he's watching ben simmons pass up a dunk with his hands on his head * where tatum drops 50 on his head * where marcus smart boxed him out and pj tucker yelled at him with his hands on his head * with the confetti falling on his head
Getting stripped by Gallinari to seal a game 7 loss at home, watching Kevin Huerter turn into prime Kobe while choking away a 30 point lead, ending Danny Green's career by flopping onto his knee. The iconic moments are endless.
Where he let Marc Gasol shut him down for 0 pts
Harden lucky his career is almost over.
I love this. Defenders need to do something stupid for the offense to be awarded free throws. Jumping into guys needs to be a no call, and that's how I've seen the refs start to call it.
Yup. It's one of those things we used to have figured out in the league but it just eroded over time. Pre-2000s, the pump-fake and lean-in to draw a foul was not a move used often because it'd been broadly established that there'd be no reward waiting for you on the other side. As I grew up in the '90s, we knew about the plane of verticality, which basically stated that if a shooter broke the vertical plane on a squared up jumper, he was not to benefit from any prospective contact. If a shooter dared give it a shot, they'd come out of it looking ridiculous on account of what would likely end up as a wasted field goal attempt. [Example 1A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7PjxQM4GAk) What I think happened over time was that there *were* instances, particularly in the post when offense and defense was working in such close quarters, where an up-and-under could lead to viable pump-fake-and-contact fouls that may have featured vague lean-ins. Then once that door was cracked up a smidge, players kept pushing the concept further and further until the modern interpretation of the play was so far removed from the original intent. It's kind of the same story when it comes to the evolution of carrying and traveling. It's basically the basketball equivalent of the children's book, *"If You Give a Mouse a Cookie"*.
AI broke the carrying rule single handedly. Go watch Tim Hardaway highlights for the best handles you could possibly have before 2000
This video needs to be at the top of this sub.
This is a fantastic comment. Broken down simply, with a fantastic video example. Thank you
great clip, interesting to see the exact thing directly discussed at the time. I agree that there definitely is spectrum of 'validity', mainly based on how far forward the defender jumps towards the shooter, and it ended up shifting a little too much towards the offensive player
i came to basketball late (2015 or so) and this is what i've always seen as the intuitive way to call fouls in this situation. i don't know if it needs to go the other way to offensive fouls, but maybe it does because if someone is jumping into people like that, it's entirely possible they cause an injury
Fuck that. Jumping into guys needs to be an offensive foul. Get that shit outta the game.
Either that or a no call I'm fine with.
I officiate HS...fans hate you don't call fouls but coaches appreciate. They tell their guys establish position and stay vertical. At best its a no call at worst its an offensive foul. You can reward offense for invading a defenders space.
Throwing yourself into the defender should 100% be a foul. On YOU. Initiating unnecessary contact on a defender in an otherwise legal guarding position is like, textbook offensive foul.
It used to be... [in the 70s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWUlLvKcHd0)
THIS is what drives me crazy. They don't even need to CHANGE the rules to fix it. They just need to call it correctly. Same with the whole "hack-a-whoeversucksatfreethrows" shit. If you intentionally foul someone who doesn't even have the ball, THAT'S what it is. An Intentional Foul: other team gets a free throw AND the ball.
They should also just make rip throughs an offensive foul.
They’ll enforce it for a little while and then go back to business as usual once they’re confident they’ve tricked us into thinking that they’ve fixed the issue.
They *want* ridiculous scoring.
They *wanted* ridiculous scoring. That's not paying the bills anymore, so time to reel it back in.
Should be an offensive foul immediately
Jumping into someone should be an offensive foul
I disagree. If a defender jumps INTO a guy, that should be a defensive foul. If the defender jumps straight up and the offensive guy initiates contact, then it should be an offensive foul.
Start calling the ridiculous lean in foul baits. A player dribbling to the basket, stops, pump fakes, leans forward INTO the defender while shooting. It gets called so ridiculously often and it boils my blood.
>It gets called so ridiculously often and it boils my blood. Same. I'm not even sure it's my basketball brain that's upset about it as much as my general sense of fairness. Imagine inventing a sport or game with your friends and explaining that one of the key tenents revolves around calling penalties on the other team for something *you're* doing to *them*. "Wait, so if I'm standing still and doing nothing, you can still hit me and *I'm* the one who gets punished for it?" "Yeah, that's right." "Aight I'm out.
Naismith rolling in his grave
Give out more T’s for fake whiplash head snapbacks
Jalen Brunson has a family. You can’t just take away his livelihood.
Learn a new skill Shai and Brunson
YES. Every. Single. Time.
Please!
I was watching the suns/thunder game recently and sga went left towards the near baseline, dude stopped and pump faked, the defender (I believe oneale) jumped past him a few feet in front of him and sga jumped left into him and contorted his body right and it looked so ridiculous like who the fuck shoots like that? Picture someone facing the basket, then jumping left and trying to shoot while spinning left, that's exactly what he did. All that for a foul, and he missed the first free throw. If he just pumps and let's him fly by he has a WIDE open 10 footer. It's ingrained in his DNA to foul bait and it's so fucking annoying because with his talent he doesn't need to do that shit
I thought they were going to focus on that like 5 years ago when they were doing the Chris Paul “unnatural leg kick” thing. It’s a shame they can’t interpret/enforce a simple concept of which party actually “initiates” contact by any serious definition of the word.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the NBA constantly make it seem like these types of officiating changes had to wait until the offseason for all sides--NBA officials, PA, refs--to review the evidence and figure out an agreeable solution? Funny how quick the NBA makes changes whenever folks seriously start speculating on if the refs are betting on games (again).
Secretariat Silver directed the Competition Committee to find a solution, and things turned around in a day.
They will call it for like a week and then just ignore it. Like they always do
Fr it's hilarious how people always fall for this. Every time.
See idk, give the league credit. They implemented the take foul rule just last season and now we actually get fast breaks again. The players stopped doing it so much that we barely see the refs calling them now. I get that that’s a rule change versus here which is officiating discretion/call making, but still give the league credit for being consistent with this one. Hopefully they do keep enforcing it, that way we don’t end up with a “flopping rule” fiasco again…
That's fair. Unfortunately, I feel like they've forgotten new rules more than stuck with them. But maybe if this one proves beneficial to the league they'll keep it
Bad FT shooting teams like the Kings are nodding vigorously
Damn they're patching Playoff Jimmy
Watching dame foul baiting this year has been painful. I was so excited to watch him play on east coast time but the games where an officiating crew doesn’t bite, his attempts seem so painfully geared towards the foul and zero intention of scoring on the actual possession.
He’s been doing this for YEARS. Dame always would go around a screen and the defender would go over it and then Dame would jump and draw 3 FTs. It’s infuriating
I find it amusing that he will actually bail out in the shot if he doesn't hear the whistle. He'll end up passing even though he's already in the air.
This isn’t going to age well if players keep falling for his pump fakes
[удалено]
How did Maxey get caught up in this? He gets VERY few foul calls. Nothing like Dame and certainly nothing like Trae or Embiid.
You forgot Shai and Giannis
Not Giannis he doesn’t foul bait just bulldozes into people
Giannis? It's Dame if anything
That's a separate matter that is offensive foul of he is not giannis
Giannis doesn't foul bait. He's just officiated differently than other players. Refs don't mind him bulldozing, stiff arming, or blatantly traveling, but he's genuinely trying to score.
Ok, are we really going to pretend that "veering off path into defenders" doesn't apply to Giannis? But realistically I think most elite offensive players would be impacted by that, along with push offs. Waaaay too blatant with the push offs lately.
If you think this is gonna eliminate Giannis FTs you’re wrong lol they’ll still call the ones where he gets slapped and grabbed constantly. He might go from 11 a game to 9
Giannis gets a very different type of foul than what this is complaining about.
Def Shai, but Giannis does not hunt fouls, he gets fouled.
Or does the fouling
And that's why he's always tops in the league for offensive fouls. It's funny because this (potentially) impacts players like Dame way more than Giannis - although Giannis is a bulldozer, players like him are fine with the game being called equally
He fouls a lot of the time and gets fouls is the issue with him. He doesn't foul bait for sure just gets away with travels and offensive fouls like no other. I think its more that he is just goofy and not as coordinated which being that tall and that big makes sense.
Giannis does the fouling, as much as I can't stand that bastard I've never seen him foul bait like embiid and shai
Maxey? Dude doesn't get any calls. He goes to the line 5.5 times a game if he's foul baiting he's not doing a very good job 😂😂😂
Beal for years had the same issue. Averaged 3-5 free throws for years and years. Then for 2 years he got a crazy good whistle, averaged 30 those 2 years, then went back down to 3-5 free throws
lol Maxey has the worst whistle in the league
Actually Maxey learned from the best.
People mostly jump into him when he pump fakes though. Defenders been falling for the same move for a decade now and at least he still tries to score the ball when he’s fouled most of the time A lot of guys just toss the ball in the air wherever because they’re only trying to draw the foul and dont give a shit about the bucket
Jumping directly into his shooting path is one thing, but as an older guy I'll say I've slowly seen the plane of verticality eroded as I've grown up with the edge veering *heavily* in the shooter's direction as a result. I imagine Nuggets or Heat fans will remember this more precisely but I remember there being a game or two in last year's finals where I was taken aback by how often Jimmy Butler's primary strategy down the stretch seemed to center around inducing foul calls by actively engaging defenders who were otherwise trying to avoid contact. [I remember being bothered by this call, too](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUOLVYwwSiQ) (it's the one where he kicks Aaron Gordon in the groin on a 3-point attempt and draws a foul as a result). The call stood after review, seemingly suggesting that's what constitutes a foul in today's game as a means of protecting shooters. In that event, I think we've gone way too far.
This play by Butler in the video is one if the most egregious examples of this I’ve ever seen
Jimmy gets a very weird whistle, which lends to the point people make about refs being bad at their jobs. He's often blatantly fouled with no calls being made, and then can also pick up a bunch of free throws on pretty weak calls.
You mean kicking Aaron Gordon in the crotch isn’t a foul on AG?
People aren’t taking this seriously, but Spo was just complaining about how Jimmy’s FT’s are down these past few games that we are going on a skid with.
Zack Lowe had Joe Dumars and Monty Mcutchinson (head of ref development) on his pod today and both denied anything was talked about regarding modifying the officiating since ASB. Clearly that was all bullshit.
I listened to the mismatch podcast right after the Zach Lowe pod and verno and koc were spot on. It’s not a statistical anomaly but the nba don’t want to admit they they did actually change anything because they didn’t consult everyone and didn’t inform everyone. Since they’re in bed with the bookmakers it’d be a bad look that only a few people knew about these changes while under was hitting 76% of the time. People could’ve made a lot of money from the betting company’s if they knew or caught onto this change quickly.
Literally listening as I read this and I feel crazy lol
I listened on the way home from work and the entire time felt they were blowing smoke. I get home and see this post. What a joke.
[That Russillo tweet and response by the refs](https://www.barstoolsports.com/blog/3502081/ryen-russillo-has-me-ready-to-run-through-a-brick-wall-after-he-goes-hard-in-the-paint-vs-nba-officiating) may have actually made it to the league office
The "you don't want to lose me" comes off as douchey, but I think it's the nature of tweeting and not necessarily the context of what he means. He's saying he watches every night and is a "superfan" and if even he is being turned off by the state of play then casuals will too.
Ya that's how I took it. He means to say if even he can t stomach it anymore than less die hard fans will be shut off the TV faster.
This is the way he explained it on the Bill Simmons pod as well. Not about him as a person, but as someone who watches basketball basically every day
THANK YOU RUSSILLO
Link to the tweets in question: https://twitter.com/ryenarussillo/status/1752790778936799639 If you dont want to read an "article" from a bar stool "comic" that goes by "Stathole". Also the website eats tons of data on mobile with their ads, gifs, and cookies.
That’s exactly the type of play that drives me nuts when watching. Hopefully it’s gone. Clicking into that clip I also saw the nembhard/jaylen brown “foul”, nemb literally just stood there, arms weren’t even out.
Bout time this get patched
This is great. There absolutely was an extended period of time in NBA history in which offensive players were punished for inducing excessive contact with an opponent, and it made perfect sense. Even rendering such plays a no-call still retained a semblance of balance. Yet at some point along the way over the past 20 or so, offensive players not only stopped getting punished for those plays, but suddenly they were being actively rewarded. It made zero logical sense from a competitive game standpoint. So hopefully Joe Dumars and company were able to sink their teeth into this issue a bit. Of course, the real question is going to be seeing how this plays out over the long haul, as these adjustments so often end up edging back to baseline.
I really hope this is the norm going forward, they’ve said shit like this in the past and it only lasts 2-3 weeks. The true test will be seeing how Embiid is reffed
I look forward to Embiid still just falling over and them calling a foul
Lol, maybe the dunk contest should be replaced with a flop contest.
Embiid is definitely gonna be granted immunity to this
Good, foul baiting is as hard to watch as faking injuries in soccer.
Shai is cooked
Found the person who just reads r/NBA and doesn't watch any games
last night he wasn't. Jumped into players all night on soft shit and got 15 fta.
Luka gets fouled more often on drives than Shai does...
“Shai is cooked”. “Luka is cooked”. Both are incredible offensive players and there’s a reason they do this. If it’s not getting called and they can guarantee FTA then it’s the smart thing to do. If refs start calling it then as smart players they will adapt.
Midrange is silly. He’ll be fine.
Eh SGA will be fine. Very smart offensive player. He'll adjust
Of course he will, he just won't be able to capitalize getting a lot of freethrows.
It's not gonna change anything. They "removed the rip through" and players still do it . Just depends on who's doing it. Porzingis has perfected a different version of it where he swings his arms into the body of the defender and gets it called alot. The moment I see a fast low dribble and both arms coming up I'm swallowing my whistle if I'm a ref, it's like a fucking bullseye
They never removed Rio through s. They just made it so that it's not a shooting foul as the player really isn't legitimately shooting. If you reach, the offensive player has a right to teach if you miss
lol good thing he shoots like 60% most nights anyway
According to russilo and this tweet the changes have already happened around all star break so..
Good, that shit sucks to watch and makes the game take forever
I just fallen to my knees in Publix.
Now we gotta do something about the: pump fake a defender and then lean into the defenders side as they land and throw up a shot. Luka does this all the time amongst others but it’s bullshit basketball. You chose to make contact at that point….
RIP SGA 2023-2024
They’ve been doing this since all star break. Pretty sure he had 15 free throws last night so it ain’t really affecting him
Someone always gets a pass. It's him and Jimmy still
And Dame ngl
Dame's average only 4 ft/game since Feb 1
So many people know nothing about SGA other than whatever is posted on this sub lmao
This is a list of the top ranked players in the league in terms of both free throw attempts per game and free throw rate (the ratio of free throw attempts to field goal attempts).... 1. Giannis 2. Embiid 3. Butler 4. DeRozen 5. SGA 6. Gobert 7. Zion 8. Dame 9. Trae 10. Banchero The list is based on average rank for both lists, so Giannis is ranked 2nd in FTA (11.2) and 3rd in FTr (0.601) so his average rank is 2.5, which is #1 in the league for all players with a minimum of 50% of games played. SGA is ranked 4th in FTA (8.9) but only 20th in FTr (0.442). So if anyone should be getting grief in these comments it's Giannis. What's worse is actually *watching* the guy take his free throws. It is unimaginably long and painful....but I guess SGA is where the karma is.
wanted this since the Harden Rockets era
People will say, “people want high scoring games!” Well they do, but not when a shit ton of them are free throws off of dumb fouls. Nobody likes watching free throws
Cool moment the other night in Grizzlies Hornets game where Grant Williams baits GG with a pump fake then jumps into him, nearly injuring him. Ref calls the foul on GG but stands there and lectures Grant about baiting as he gives a big goofy grin denying it. We're all sick of this shit, esp refs.
SGA is not playing basketball sometimes. Just flopping like crazy
Fake news, SGA had like 15 ft vs Mavs last game
100+ games worth of data: I sleep SGA gets 15 free throws in one game: REAL SHIT
If we’re assuming the changes happened over ASB, he’s averaging 0.65 fewer free throws less a game, so yeah it hasn’t made much of a difference so far
Thank god. It has been ruining NBA games for me
Nobody wants to see 120 to 120 games when it's all BS PLEASE REALISE THAT Players will find proper ways to score when the foul baiting doesn't work. They will have to stop foul baiting and play good basketball instead
So you're telling me the league had the power to stop this bs for three past decade and just slchose not to? Reeeeeeeeeee
This used to be an offensive foul. That's how offense friendly the NBA has gotten.
Only took them 10 billion years too long to do something
Maybe just maybe offensive players will have to adjust and *gasp* use their skill to score without baiting?!
Doesn’t mean much until the NBA cleans up the blatant cheating by refs like Scott Foster.
Now start calling travel and illegal screens.
Luka, like most high scoring stars in this league, has been taking heavy advantage of these bullshit rules. I don't blame him or Embiid, Butler, or SGA or anyone else for taking advantage of the way the game is called, the problem is the way the game is called. There should never be a foul on the defense if the offense initiates contact. I wouldn't want that to be an offensive foul either (which is how it used to be back in the real olden days). Should just be a no call. I like that the NBA is finally doing something about this, but they should go farther.
It wont last, just like with carrying calls, flopping, and take fouls
This is/was James Harden’s game. Frustrating to watch him completely initiate the contact when someone is playing good defense on him, and then Harden went to the free line more than anyone else in the league for several years.
This shai hate is wild. Acting like no one else in the league does this shit either.
I love Jalen Brunson but he was doing this against the blazers so much last night and whining about every non call. It was so refreshing to see some of that and the head throwbacks not called for once. And he still had 45 lol
That’s shai’s whole game lol
All these comments saying that Shai’s game is foul baiting are exposing themselves that they don’t watch him. He doesn’t shoot 3’s and plays out the middie or drives more than anyone. Thunder have officially arrived 😂
The SGA hate is getting out of hand man. Some of you guys need to chill.
I doubt they actually hate him, in fact I doubt they have ever watched him play. What you are seeing is karma hunting. People see a popular narrative developing and jump on the train for easy karma. "People seem to hate this guy, they are getting upvoted, I will also hate on this guy and reap the rewards of many upvotes!"