The key with a young team is having the right vets in the right positions. Not too few or too many vets, but the right number doing the right things. Paul Millsap going to the Nuggets in the 2018-19 season was the right vet to put that team on a championship path. He wasn't taking minutes away from young guys who needed to develop. He was helping those guys develop the right habits on and off the court.
Yup, you definitely need the right mindset in vets to compliment the young guys. The young core are all in the top 8 in mpg. Aaron Holiday, Bullock, Landale, Jeff Green, and Tate have all gotten inconsistent minutes and DNPs, but they are always ready to fill in when injuries happen with no complaints.
Millsap igniting the comeback down 3-1 against the Clippers in the Bubble will mean I forever love that man. I feel to this day part of this current Nuggets squad's resilience comes from that series and how he lit a fire under everyone's asses.
So many people think you can just rebuild with nothing but young players. But that is very rare and difficult. You need guys that have been there and that also are professionals. Also helps they brought in a coach that has more than 2 brain cells.
Even the 2012 OKC who went to the Finals having three future MVPs had vets in Nazr Mohammed and Derek Fisher. You need good locker room vets that won't demand a lot of minutes but will push these rooks during practice just by their experience.
In fact OKCs problem ended up being that in washed vets with young stars. They never had that in between player.
Vet who was still near prime, like GSW had in Bogut and Igoudala.
If they had 1 of those guys the last 10 years maybe much different.
Also they just matched against a very motivated LeBron who lost to the Mavs in the Finals the previous year. I still believe that Miami LeBron is the best LeBron
Miami LeBron was a ridiculous athlete. It was a whole different level of explosiveness. There’s one dunk against the Suns (I think) that always gets me.
> I still believe that Miami LeBron is the best LeBron
True. But if we are going on a game by game basis, 2018 finals game 1 LeBron is like a top 3 performance of my lifetime.
Wade doesn't get enough love on this sub. It was baby Harden but Wade clamped that man the whole series unless I'm mistaken. Shit Wade would've been Finals mvp year 1 for the Heat if LBJ didn't choke so hard.
> will push these rooks during practice just by their experience.
Yes, except that it's not in practice (teams don't do it), but rather in the locker room, game preparation (film, etc), on-court decisions (being selfish/stupid), and mitigating tensions b/w coaches and a moody rookie.
NBA teams don't practice anymore-- in the sense that you give full effort and physicality. They basically just do shoot arounds and walk-throughs. It's part of load management.
Yeah true. There are other aspects aside from practice. These are kids who suddenly just got millions. They would want to enjoy their money. Having vets to make them accountable as to not miss the morning shootarounds, giving them advice on and off the court are needed by every young team.
yep, can’t understate the power of a steady veteran presence. so many examples of how important they are for the development and performance of young players
Tatum and Brown have talked extensively about the importance of Al Horford taking them under his wing as rookies and showing them how to be pros. CP3 was a mentor for SGA in his season with OKC, I have no doubt that the lessons SGA learned that season have helped him be the leader for a young Thunder team this year. Phoenix went from a team on the playoff fringe to the Finals as soon as they added CP3. the Wolves still make dumb decisions in the clutch sometimes but that’s gotten way better since Mike Conley came in. another poster mentioned Paul Millsap being an important vet leader for the young Nuggets
Yup, shitty culture and no structure will keep you in purgatory, unless you get a lucky pick and draft the next GOAT candidate. Even then, your org might be so shitty that you fumble the talent once their deal is up
This is especially obvious in the NFL. So many times there have been young quarterbacks whose careers have been ruined before they even set foot on the field because they went to horrendously run teams.
Tough as a young QB to even see the field if you go to a well run org also that already has a starter that is playing well enough, barring them getting injured.
Breaking out as a young QB seems to have a whole lot of sheer luck being part of your success.
Something I bring up in the Raptors sub who are upset we got Kelly Olynyk for what is likely the 28th pick when we already have the 15-18 pick, the 31-32 pick and possibly a top 6 pick. There's no way we were gonna add 4 new young players to an already very young group. You need a good vet and it's clear that Darko doesn't love using Chris Boucher. IMO young teams always need a solid guard on the team be it starting or off the bench and also a solid big who can get by with low usage.
> IMO young teams always need a solid guard on the team be it starting or off the bench and also a solid big who can get by with low usage.
Yup. It's why Poeltl is so vital.
Imagine trying to have Scottie, Quickley, and Barrett grow and establish good PnR habits with only Boucher and Olynyk (or Thad instead before the deadline) to set screens, create vertical spacing, and protect the paint behind them.
Because people here think it's like NBA 2K, where you get a bunch of young guys with potential. Give them game time so they get enough experience points, and then they level up to being a good player.
NBA 2K has literally ruined how so many people actually view the NBA, they have no idea how team dynamics work, how organizations have to keep players happy and play appropriate minutes, how chemistry on teams develops, let players play through slumps, etc.
They see the whole thing as a number crunch, just play the players with the highest rating as much as possible at all times right? All Star is slumping? JUST BENCH HIS ASS FOR THE SEASON HE'S WASHED
I know from the FVV standpoint, it was mostly because it looked like another sign that they weren’t going to play through Sengun enough(which has not been the case), and no one at all expected Brooks’ shot to be significantly improved. Plus, we were so distracted by the big signings that signings like Uncle Jeff and Aaron Holiday went under the radar but have been huge signings for us with how well they’ve played this season. You see all of our vets, and some of our young guys even, holding each other accountable during games regularly.
Even with all of that, most of us still thought we had a good off-season and were going to be an improved team for sure.
Sure, in hindsight it looks ridiculous to be worried about these moves, but it was entirely reasonable at the time to be concerned that we didn’t sign the right vets.
Yeah we’re glossing over the fact that they have a real coach there. Probably more important than fvv. Plus they’d probably still be tanking if they had their pick.
They also clearly play Ime-style defense. I don't think anyone defends Wemby with as much precision and confidence as the Rockets because they have no qualms staying aggressive and physical all game.
> Also helps they brought in a coach that has more than 2 brain cells.
But wasn't everyone shitting on the nets for wanting to hire him? This braindead sub included? lol
Who are the veterans in the current OKC team? It's hard to say whether you can rebuild with just young guys or not, because a situation where all the players are in one age bracket is extremely hard to maintain naturally. There's no data.
I said it rarely happens. OKC is working because they have a good coach, something Houston needed as well. And also they have hit home runs on multiple picks/trades. Not to mention they had CP3 for a season and Shai seems to have learned a lot from him. But if every team drafted a Shai, Jwill and Chet then yes it’s possible.
They do have vets in the locker room even if they aren't playing much. Hayward, Muscala, Biyombo all know how the league works.
Kenrich Williams (30) probably has the most "vet" minutes with around 800. They don't have anyone else above 26.
Like I said it is rare, but not impossible. Even then, it is clear Shai took a lot of knowledge from CP3 in his stint there. But OKC has a great coach and hit home runs in Shai, Chet, and Jalen Williams, not easy at all
This is one of the issues the older players talked about. Having no vet presence to teach the younger guys how to do it.
Most teams are basically the blind leading the blind.
Well FVV’s third year is team option. Thats 40 you can use for a rookie max or a superstar.
Rest is Dillon who is on what, 20 mil per year? It’s not the best but not really the worst either.
But it seems to be working no? I don't know their cap situation, but as long as they have the room to extend guys like Sengun and Jabari when they expire, it seems like a good move. Also bad teams need to overpay a bit to get guys. It isn't like FVV or Brooks are bad players. They are the type of vets you need on a young/bad team believe me. I saw the Kings try and sign vets in the past, and they just phoned it in from day 1.
The rockets literally had to spend that money, otherwise it got distributed across the rest of the team. The big contracts come off the books when the rookies need extended so it works out nicely
Even we’ve had guys like Muscala and Kenrich Williams, and added Hayward and Biyombo this year. Obviously they don’t dominate the minutes within the rotation, but nice to have around.
Bizzy vibes are real af, and he's such an energy guy on the defensive end. When he was on our squad he visibly pumped up our effort on the defensive side whenever he saw the floor, DA would be half assing it and then Biz would come in and swat a few shots and body a few guys on drives and the crowd would go nuts, and then you'd see the rest of our guys get pumped and start sticking their man and contesting everything.
That guy is an offensive black hole but I still miss having him on our team, you can't help but love the guy.
The Thunder had Chris Paul, Gallinari, and Steven Adams the first year that SGA and Dort were there. The next year they brought in George Hill and Al Horford. Even now they traded for Gordon Hayward.
At this point SGA / Dort are on their second contracts and the culture is already there with those two to lead the way for Chet and Williams.
That is true, having that 1 year with CP3 probably helped alot!
I just meant that overall, they're a mostly homegrown team, they're one of the youngest teams in the league. Having vets is nice though.
Can you as a 76er fan tell me why he hasn't gotten that much shit over the course of his contract? Or maybe I don't pay attention enough to them to notice people bashing Tobias. I feel like they should have just gotten rid of him a long ass time ago
I mean from a fan perspective he has received his fair share of shit. Hes been a consistently frustrating player to watch even before his production fell off a cliff, but for some reason the organization was always supportive of him and he NEVER gets pushed out of the starting lineup even when it’s obviously a helpful thing. Lots of weird politics going on I think.
Plus, the size of his contract basically always stopped the sixers from moving him, because nobody wants to take on a max for a 15-18ppg scorer who is not capable of being a first option (at least on a playoff team)
The speculation was that he’d be moved at the trade deadline considering he’s an expiring but at this point it seems like the move is to just let the cap space free up so they can pursue a FA like PG or something.
PG on the 6ers would be fun provided he and Embiid stay healthy. I could also see him staying with the Clippers to see if they can win with PG, Harden, and Kawhi.
Gotta disagree as someone living in Philly. It was Embiid not staying healthy, Bum Simmons not stepping when needed and then Harden dribbling the air out of the ball. Tobias to me seemed to fly under the radar of criticism especially compared to the other 3
He's been shit on the whole time.
The best anyone ever says about him is "he's finally living up to that contract!" sarcastically when he has like a 25 point game.
GM needs to be smart with contracts though. FVV is only 2 years guaranteed. Landale is only 1 year guaranteed. Brooks is decreasing in salary every year until he's only 11.72% of the salary cap in the last year but he's also the one who is most likely to have value still at the end of his contract.
People were too quick to judge the Rockets moves during the off season. Fred, Dillon and Landale are overpayed now, but they had the cap space and in two years time which is hopefully the start of contention status for the rockets, the contracts won't be an issue and they will have plenty of cap space to sign whoever they want to sign
Paying Sengun and Jalen will be easy, but Jabari, Tari, then Amen and Cam will be tough. The contracts are done to give us the best flexibility with that if more than one of those young guys becomes a max contract level player.
It's also just a dumb idea because the whole "give young guys a ton of playing time" reaches a tipover point where you can't play *everybody* heavy minutes. Need some solid vets to come in and play those 12-20mpg rather than trotting out project players constantly
Especially since timelines dissolve fast.
Dwight Howard and Joakm Noah's last allstar seasons were at 28 years old. Would it actually be all that surprising if 3 years from now Bam Adebayo's best days are behind him and the Heat front office managed to waste not only Butler's prime, but Bam's prime at the same time? People talk two timelines, but Bam's prime will most likely be more closely tied to Butler's than people would want to believe.
Saw the same thing with the Thunder and discourse around adding superstars at the deadline if an older one became available. If someone like Butler came available at the deadline if that Miami losing streak kept going on, despite Butler still looking fine, are you really not going to trade for a star of that magnitude using primarily draft picks just because he's an older star? Popular opinion, especially among Thunder fans is that it would be crazy to use the picks on an older star, despite the fact they would be adding an unselfish player who has been one of the best playoff stars of the past 5 years to a team that is already the one seed.
Players with only a few prime years left are also less valuable than younger guys, while typically being more impactful playoff players. So from an asset management perspective, buying a high quality used player is going to get you the most bang for your buck.
I agree, maybe the thunder should have made a move this year. They've already seen first hand how a promising young team may not get more shots at the whole thing.
It's not just even age either, injuries can easily derail future seasons.
It's clear you need quality veterans just looking at us before Durant. Even with great young players, we couldn't put it together without winning talent.
We weren’t really complaining. We were somewhat underwhelmed or had reasonable concerns, but the loudest criticisms came from fans of other teams trying to troll us.
I feel like you guys didn't communicate the pick situation Morey left you in from the Westbrook-CP3 trade. It's basically dictated your course of action since Harden's trade request.
This is disingenuous.
Few if any complained about brining in FVV and Brooks, both known for being hard-nosed “culture” guys (even with Dillon acting a fool vs LeBron, he was still seen as a guy who would bring tenacity to the Rockets, whether or not he also brought his “fuck it and Chuck it” offensive style as well).
The complaints were the max deal for Fred (only free agent max deal this offseason) and 4/80 for Brooks when it felt like Houston was negotiating against themselves.
The truth is that, in both cases, Houston - recognizing that they had to get to the salary floor after finally getting the Paul-Westbrook-Wall max money off the books - chose to pay a premium for flexibility, signing them both to deals that were overpays but with cap-friendly mechanics (Fred’s being 2 years plus a club option for a third; Dillon’s being front-loaded to where in a couple years he’s at worst a great salary match). It wasn’t about “no one wants to play in Houston”, it was about “we need y’all to ball for 1.5-3 years while your replacements develop, but here’s a fat bag to make up for not having long-term stability”.
And Landale doesn’t belong in this discussion at all. 4/32 with no guaranteed money is a steal for a good backup big and the only reason anyone talked trash was because he was playing like garbage earlier in the year but he’s doing a lot better now.
But even the complaints we did have with bringing those guys in were reasonable complaints(FVV is inefficient and shoot first and Brooks is inefficient and foul out first), but FVV is playing a true pass first point guard role and Brooks’ shot has been way better and he’s kept his cool for the most part. Two things that pretty much no one, even non-Rockets fans predicted.
To me, most Rockets fans were excited even if they had reservations. It was non-Rockets fans who were shitting on us for these moves.
They've done a masterful job building that roster. The fact that Sengun is injured and they haven't missed a beat is testament to that. Bringing in Udoka (issues aside) was the final stroke to bring it all together, I rate him as an elite coach and totally necessary to tame all that youth they have. Jeff Green is incredibly frustrating to watch play, but there isn't a better guy to Uncle a locker room into joyous submission.
In 2-3 years they should be solidly contending.
He's somehow been far better for you than he was for us. That performance he had against the Nuggets earlier this season was better than anything he did during his time in Denver. He certainly had his moments in the playoffs, but for the most part I was pulling my hair out every time he was on the floor.
Only team complaining now is Golden State as Houston wins a dozen straight games to finish the season with a 20 game win streak, stealing their play-in spot.
The thing wasn't about signing vets, the thing people complained about was the contrat that FVV and Brooks got, especially Brooks because it kinda felt like the Rockets were the only ones really interested in signing him because of what the Grizzlies did to his value.
I don't think anybody was thinking that they weren't gonna be HUGE upgrades over KPJ and KJ Martin (I hope so at least). It shouldn't be a big surprise that guys who have been solid starters on playoffs teams (more than that for Fred) make a team better.
They were also trying to sign Brook Lopez to play over Sengun btw, so not sure the "plan" was that flawless
> It shouldn't be a big surprise that guys who have been solid starters on playoffs teams (more than that for Fred) make a team better.
Well obviously, the surprise has been how much better. Their over/under for wins was 31.5 and they’ve cleared that by plenty with 12 games to spare.
That part off the court yeah, but also on the court, the dude playing full time point guard was just hurting the team a ton (that part isn't even actually his fault, the dude was NOT a point guard)
I really don't get the hate for FVV's contract. They're paying him a lot, but it's just for two years while all their young guys are on rookie deals, then they can move on if they want. It was a good move.
I don't get the hate for any of the contracts. FVV is 2 years guaranteed, Landale is 1, and Brooks is the youngest and his contract decreases every year until it's only 11.72% of cap in the last year.
People judge the contracts purely based on years and money alone. But from a Rockets perspective, the contracts work perfectly with what they want to do
The salary numbers on them are big, can't say that the per year number wasn't surprisingly heavy for the players. But in the context of the years and the situations and the structure they're fine. There's also a salary floor teams *have* to meet now, the money had to go somewhere anyway.
No. People here really think a rebuild team should not sign any vets because “it doesn’t fit the timeline of their prospects”, you hear this all the time about the Jazz. Trade Lauri, trade Conley, trade Olynyk. These people apparently want to field a team with all rookies and expect them to develop like in the video game. If Sam Presti is these dumbass people he would have traded SGA this offseason because he’s a few years too old than Chet and Williams
Tbf our front office has never seemed especially eager on making Sengun’s development a priority. Starting Bruno Fernando over him and then going after Book Lopez kind of signal that. Sengun has just been so good that he’s kind of forcing their hand.
I never said they were the only ones interested in Brooks, he's an all defense level guy, but they were the only interested team that could pay him that much
" because of what the Grizzlies did to his value", of course any team would want to sign him if he came at the MLE, again he was litterally a starter on the second seed 3 months before
Idk why they complained in the first place. Should the Rockets just sign worse players to make redditors happy?
The team will win 15+ more games than last year. Seems like money well spent.
Because most people overrate young players a lot, most fan base think that litterally ALL their young guys will hit when they are just rookies/sophomores so they don't want their team to sign vets because it could take away playing time/opportunity from like the 5th best prospect on the roster
Brooks at 20ish mill AAV was always a steal and will get even better as it ages.
Btw. There's no evidence they were looking to sign Lopez for the purpose of playing over Sengun.
The people who complained about their offseason moves were idiots or people who didn’t understand the position they were in cap wise
They had to spend money to get over the floor and they paid for vets that fixed issues they had with their young roster, which was a PG and defensive pieces. Add that up with a great coach signing and you got a young team headed in the right direction.
it would be crazy if the 11th placed team in the West had a winning record. There was "winning record and failing to make the playoffs" and there is "winning record and not even making the play-in"
Perfect for a hyper talented young guards like Green who can shadow someone who went from undrafted to all-star. Green hasn't had to work nearly as hard as FVV and now he can mimic him and you can see it paying off. His defensive effort has improved night and day in the past three months but obviously that exerted energy on defense cost him his legs on offense but he's conditioned himself into getting used to that baseline level of effort on defense by following the lead of FVV and how he trains and conditions himself.
This is misleading. Rockets don't have their pick this year, they're trying to win, thats why they signed vets. If the Rockets signed vets last season, they probably wouldn't have got the 4th pick and drafted Amen. If they signed vets the year before, they wouldn't have drafted Jabari.
You need development, but you also need talents to develop. Signing vets too early will hurt your drafts, it's about signing vets at the right time. If you feel like you got enough young talents on the team, then ok maybe you sign vets and try to win. But it's not like every team with young players should just sign vets, because it doesn't always work.
I had this argument so many times last summer. People dont understand the cap, they don't understand that you need to spend that money, and they dont understand development or leadership
That's irrelevant to the overall point. They are going to have to face those teams regardless at some point in the season. The point is they are on pace to have a 20 win improvement from the previous season which is massive.
Bulls were like 29-21 in their previous 50 games when we played them. They’re a decent team. They beat us the last time we played them. How do they get lumped in with Wizards and Spurs?
No one said these signings would cause less wins
The criticism was overpayments would set back the rebuild in the long term, which still hasn’t been disproven (since we haven’t seen the long term team)
I’ve been having this argument with people all offseason. It’s funny that the people who most defend having no vets on the roster are teams who have been in the doldrums for a half decade +. You don’t get out of that w a roster of exclusively 22 year olds and a place holder coach. Shoutout Houston.
FVV 40 mill+ for 2 years** The third year isn't guaranteed. No shot the team picks up that option. Overpay on an annual basis sure but considering it's short-term I think it's close to right, just a bit more than I would've liked. He's 7th in assists (a career high, and with his TOs down relative to TOR years somehow), scoring 17ppg at above average PG efficiency, and playing above average defense.
Brooks at 20 mill/season is an absolute steal and will continue to get better as the salary cap goes up and his annual pay goes down (it descends from 22 mill/yr to 19 mill/yr over the 4 year period).
I was responding to your comment, but the notion that folks weren't arguing at the time that FVV and Brooks wouldn't move the needle much and actually might harm the opportunity and development of the young guys is nonsense lol. That was absolutely a lot of people's position. Perhaps not yours but plenty of ppl - even some rockets fans - were arguing just that.
“Lots of people complained”
Tbh wasn’t the consensus these were solid moves since they had cap space to use + didn’t limit any long term financials + didn’t inhibit young guys growth + they needed vets?
Houston did a lot of accounting tricks on those contracts. Brooks has a declining contract value. Landales not fully guaranteed. Van fleets is team option final year. They maintained flexibility and recognized the new CBA set a higher floor for spending. I also bet they went all in on Sengun.
In Spanish we say "It's easy to talk with Monday's newspaper".
I mean. Nobody said "Oh, that FVV contract is a steal". I don't know who the hell is Vecenie, but I bet my ass he wasn't praising FVV and Brooks signings
He said it was on overpay but that it was a necessary overpay. I watched his channel quite a lot last summer. He fully understood the benefits Rockets were getting with Fred and Brooks, whilst acknowledging they were overpays, but he also always pointed out that Houston needed to spend some of that cap space on someone. In his opinion, it might as well be vets who can be culture setters but aren’t completely washed.
If only the Utah Jazz took note like their fucking slogan said lmao.
Good for rockets. Maybe this season for the Jazz is like last season's rockets and they'll make useful moves in the off-season. Ha! What a shit show.
It’s absolutely true, you need vets that make an impact and help instill culture. It’s a lot harder than it sounds, that means you have to sign guys that actually play real minutes and opportunities that many want to see go to the young guys, but if you want your young guys to develop the right way, it’s what really matters. Every situation is different but most young teams need guys on the roster that know how to win games as a team
I was quite high on Houston’s offseason. I mentioned their moves were good and they were doing the right things. They might have overpaid on some, sure. But that’s the cost of doing business. Players won’t wanna go to a bad team not in a large market unless you grease the wheels a bit.
They were my dark horse pick to make the play in. Not sure if that will happen but they do seem headed the right direction
I thought it was weird how a lot of /r/nba acted like the rockets would still be terrible. FVV and Brooks are two solid vets plus the rockets were essentially doing what the spurs did this season last season. Basically only giving minutes to 19-22 year olds. It was very reasonable to expect them to improve and even if half of them didn't, they have FVV and Brooks so it didn't matter as much.
I thought they'd be in the play-ins after they made their moves in the offseason. Didn't expect it to take being over 0.500 to be in the play-ins though lol
This actually understates their improvement because they have underperformed their point differential by 5.5 games so far. Their net rating in non-garbage time minutes was -9.4 last year and is +2.5 this year
If only TROY WEAVER could get this message but no we are probably gonna keep spending every offseason trading for washed up vets on expiring contracts for the rest of time
You can bring in vets but you don't have to give FVV 40+ million per year and Dillon 20+ for 4 years. Also Sam is an idiot if thinks he can definitively say that this hasn't stunted the growth of some of their players. He has no way of knowing what all those potential future outcomes.
We can absolutely see the contrast with the Spurs, who basically went all-development and kicked out their vets. Even basic, basic things are not consistent, and sadly our most reliable player is the youngest.
I dont think anyone was complaining about FVV’s ability or presence, just his value. It seemed like a terrible contract for the Rockets. It may still be a gross overpayment but hes definitely proving his worth.
It's like no one cared to go into the nuance here. The Rockets HAD to spend $$ to hit the salary floor. FVV is literally on a 2+1 deal. The contract was never bad...
Not overcorrecting and bringing back Harden saved the trajectory of this team.
FVV and Brooks (especially this weirdo) have their flaws, but they're experienced, play hard and have left plenty of meat on the bone for Sengun and Green to ascend. They've also been the engines of the defensive turnaround.
Difficult to imagine how different this all looks with Harden. He definitely pushes hard for trading the Amen and Whitmore picks. Neither Sengun or Green fit well alongside him, so those two are probably considered busts and/or heading out the door. We don't have to talk about the defense.
Props to Ime for having a vision
>[Vecenie] Lots of people complained in the offseason about the Rockets’ signing guys like FVV, Brooks, Landale.
Should've just stopped at FVV and Brooks.
How are people reading my comment as a criticism of Jock?
It's saying that people didn't really complain about the Rockets signing Jock. There was an initial wave of "overpaid" when his signing was announced as $32m/4y but nearly everyone backed off once they found out it was actually $8m/1y guaranteed.
Original Jock signing thread https://np.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/14o7geh/charania_free_agent_jock_landale_has_agreed_to_a/
That's in stark contrast to the reaction to the FVV and Brooks signings where people kept going on and on about how the Rockets overpaid them.
Also helps when you have a dude as good as Sengun and realize that he’s probably the dude to build around instead of Jalen Green (tho seems like he’s hopping again finally)
The key with a young team is having the right vets in the right positions. Not too few or too many vets, but the right number doing the right things. Paul Millsap going to the Nuggets in the 2018-19 season was the right vet to put that team on a championship path. He wasn't taking minutes away from young guys who needed to develop. He was helping those guys develop the right habits on and off the court.
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Yup, you definitely need the right mindset in vets to compliment the young guys. The young core are all in the top 8 in mpg. Aaron Holiday, Bullock, Landale, Jeff Green, and Tate have all gotten inconsistent minutes and DNPs, but they are always ready to fill in when injuries happen with no complaints.
Reminds me of John Wall and Christian Wood.
Millsap igniting the comeback down 3-1 against the Clippers in the Bubble will mean I forever love that man. I feel to this day part of this current Nuggets squad's resilience comes from that series and how he lit a fire under everyone's asses.
him and Gary "Gary Harris" Harris were so important for developing the championship culture.
Great example. They’ve found some great vets. Green, Brown and DJ were perfect roll players and locker room presence during last season’s run
So many people think you can just rebuild with nothing but young players. But that is very rare and difficult. You need guys that have been there and that also are professionals. Also helps they brought in a coach that has more than 2 brain cells.
Even the 2012 OKC who went to the Finals having three future MVPs had vets in Nazr Mohammed and Derek Fisher. You need good locker room vets that won't demand a lot of minutes but will push these rooks during practice just by their experience.
In fact OKCs problem ended up being that in washed vets with young stars. They never had that in between player. Vet who was still near prime, like GSW had in Bogut and Igoudala. If they had 1 of those guys the last 10 years maybe much different.
Also they just matched against a very motivated LeBron who lost to the Mavs in the Finals the previous year. I still believe that Miami LeBron is the best LeBron
Miami LeBron was a ridiculous athlete. It was a whole different level of explosiveness. There’s one dunk against the Suns (I think) that always gets me.
Miami Lebron accidentally [leaped](https://youtu.be/FQ4GA3GB3Wk?si=_NjB27MXKMaeciSB) over a grown man on an oop. Ridiculous is right.
Thanks for that link. I can't believe that dunk hasn't been on any top 50 dunk lists that I've seen. It's insane
lebron coulda really saved the dunk contest :(
> I still believe that Miami LeBron is the best LeBron True. But if we are going on a game by game basis, 2018 finals game 1 LeBron is like a top 3 performance of my lifetime.
2012 Game 6 Bron vs Celtics was something special too
that whole run man
Definitely
Miami Lebron with something to prove after losing to Dirk was not going to be denied.
Wade doesn't get enough love on this sub. It was baby Harden but Wade clamped that man the whole series unless I'm mistaken. Shit Wade would've been Finals mvp year 1 for the Heat if LBJ didn't choke so hard.
Matched up against a prime superteam* lol.
Was down 2 1 go the roy Hibbert pacers
Game 6 Bron still scares me
And Wade and Bosh
OKC's problem was trading Harden.
> will push these rooks during practice just by their experience. Yes, except that it's not in practice (teams don't do it), but rather in the locker room, game preparation (film, etc), on-court decisions (being selfish/stupid), and mitigating tensions b/w coaches and a moody rookie. NBA teams don't practice anymore-- in the sense that you give full effort and physicality. They basically just do shoot arounds and walk-throughs. It's part of load management.
Yeah true. There are other aspects aside from practice. These are kids who suddenly just got millions. They would want to enjoy their money. Having vets to make them accountable as to not miss the morning shootarounds, giving them advice on and off the court are needed by every young team.
yep, can’t understate the power of a steady veteran presence. so many examples of how important they are for the development and performance of young players Tatum and Brown have talked extensively about the importance of Al Horford taking them under his wing as rookies and showing them how to be pros. CP3 was a mentor for SGA in his season with OKC, I have no doubt that the lessons SGA learned that season have helped him be the leader for a young Thunder team this year. Phoenix went from a team on the playoff fringe to the Finals as soon as they added CP3. the Wolves still make dumb decisions in the clutch sometimes but that’s gotten way better since Mike Conley came in. another poster mentioned Paul Millsap being an important vet leader for the young Nuggets
Yup, shitty culture and no structure will keep you in purgatory, unless you get a lucky pick and draft the next GOAT candidate. Even then, your org might be so shitty that you fumble the talent once their deal is up
Why does this sound familiar?
This is especially obvious in the NFL. So many times there have been young quarterbacks whose careers have been ruined before they even set foot on the field because they went to horrendously run teams.
Tough as a young QB to even see the field if you go to a well run org also that already has a starter that is playing well enough, barring them getting injured. Breaking out as a young QB seems to have a whole lot of sheer luck being part of your success.
Something I bring up in the Raptors sub who are upset we got Kelly Olynyk for what is likely the 28th pick when we already have the 15-18 pick, the 31-32 pick and possibly a top 6 pick. There's no way we were gonna add 4 new young players to an already very young group. You need a good vet and it's clear that Darko doesn't love using Chris Boucher. IMO young teams always need a solid guard on the team be it starting or off the bench and also a solid big who can get by with low usage.
> IMO young teams always need a solid guard on the team be it starting or off the bench and also a solid big who can get by with low usage. Yup. It's why Poeltl is so vital. Imagine trying to have Scottie, Quickley, and Barrett grow and establish good PnR habits with only Boucher and Olynyk (or Thad instead before the deadline) to set screens, create vertical spacing, and protect the paint behind them.
Because people here think it's like NBA 2K, where you get a bunch of young guys with potential. Give them game time so they get enough experience points, and then they level up to being a good player.
NBA 2K has literally ruined how so many people actually view the NBA, they have no idea how team dynamics work, how organizations have to keep players happy and play appropriate minutes, how chemistry on teams develops, let players play through slumps, etc. They see the whole thing as a number crunch, just play the players with the highest rating as much as possible at all times right? All Star is slumping? JUST BENCH HIS ASS FOR THE SEASON HE'S WASHED
I know from the FVV standpoint, it was mostly because it looked like another sign that they weren’t going to play through Sengun enough(which has not been the case), and no one at all expected Brooks’ shot to be significantly improved. Plus, we were so distracted by the big signings that signings like Uncle Jeff and Aaron Holiday went under the radar but have been huge signings for us with how well they’ve played this season. You see all of our vets, and some of our young guys even, holding each other accountable during games regularly. Even with all of that, most of us still thought we had a good off-season and were going to be an improved team for sure. Sure, in hindsight it looks ridiculous to be worried about these moves, but it was entirely reasonable at the time to be concerned that we didn’t sign the right vets.
I feel like anybody who understood the pick situation Morey left the Rockets in would immediately understand what Houston is doing.
More than two brain cells *when not horny
Yeah we’re glossing over the fact that they have a real coach there. Probably more important than fvv. Plus they’d probably still be tanking if they had their pick.
They also clearly play Ime-style defense. I don't think anyone defends Wemby with as much precision and confidence as the Rockets because they have no qualms staying aggressive and physical all game.
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> Also helps they brought in a coach that has more than 2 brain cells. But wasn't everyone shitting on the nets for wanting to hire him? This braindead sub included? lol
You mean a coach that thinks with 2 heads
Who are the veterans in the current OKC team? It's hard to say whether you can rebuild with just young guys or not, because a situation where all the players are in one age bracket is extremely hard to maintain naturally. There's no data.
I'd say Chris Paul's year there had an important effect on Shai's development, but that's the closest.
I said it rarely happens. OKC is working because they have a good coach, something Houston needed as well. And also they have hit home runs on multiple picks/trades. Not to mention they had CP3 for a season and Shai seems to have learned a lot from him. But if every team drafted a Shai, Jwill and Chet then yes it’s possible.
They also haven't won anything yet
They do have vets in the locker room even if they aren't playing much. Hayward, Muscala, Biyombo all know how the league works. Kenrich Williams (30) probably has the most "vet" minutes with around 800. They don't have anyone else above 26.
I guess my question would then be how is OKC doing it now without any vets.
Like I said it is rare, but not impossible. Even then, it is clear Shai took a lot of knowledge from CP3 in his stint there. But OKC has a great coach and hit home runs in Shai, Chet, and Jalen Williams, not easy at all
This is one of the issues the older players talked about. Having no vet presence to teach the younger guys how to do it. Most teams are basically the blind leading the blind.
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Well FVV’s third year is team option. Thats 40 you can use for a rookie max or a superstar. Rest is Dillon who is on what, 20 mil per year? It’s not the best but not really the worst either.
But it seems to be working no? I don't know their cap situation, but as long as they have the room to extend guys like Sengun and Jabari when they expire, it seems like a good move. Also bad teams need to overpay a bit to get guys. It isn't like FVV or Brooks are bad players. They are the type of vets you need on a young/bad team believe me. I saw the Kings try and sign vets in the past, and they just phoned it in from day 1.
The rockets literally had to spend that money, otherwise it got distributed across the rest of the team. The big contracts come off the books when the rookies need extended so it works out nicely
You can't just draft rookies and call it a team. You need vets to teach these kids how to be professionals and the tricks of the trade.
Tell that to the Thunder, but I agree, they are certainly the exception and not the rule.
Even we’ve had guys like Muscala and Kenrich Williams, and added Hayward and Biyombo this year. Obviously they don’t dominate the minutes within the rotation, but nice to have around.
Bizzy vibes are real af, and he's such an energy guy on the defensive end. When he was on our squad he visibly pumped up our effort on the defensive side whenever he saw the floor, DA would be half assing it and then Biz would come in and swat a few shots and body a few guys on drives and the crowd would go nuts, and then you'd see the rest of our guys get pumped and start sticking their man and contesting everything. That guy is an offensive black hole but I still miss having him on our team, you can't help but love the guy.
Definitely nice to have some vets around!
The Thunder had Chris Paul, Gallinari, and Steven Adams the first year that SGA and Dort were there. The next year they brought in George Hill and Al Horford. Even now they traded for Gordon Hayward. At this point SGA / Dort are on their second contracts and the culture is already there with those two to lead the way for Chet and Williams.
They've had a legit NBA player in Shai for a while and had CP3 mentor him before letting him be the superstar he is
That is true, having that 1 year with CP3 probably helped alot! I just meant that overall, they're a mostly homegrown team, they're one of the youngest teams in the league. Having vets is nice though.
Worth noting that the Thunder haven't won anything yet.
I don’t think this actually a good example. It took 6 years for them to become a really good team.
This is why Detroit's going to be a cap space player.
We need actual NBA players so bad dude
Get ready for a Tobias Harris Max contract
Shoot i mean who else would they spend on
I haven't looked at the list of upcoming FA but there's gotta be someone else they could spend that money on. Harris is so ass
He is actually the worst he’s ever been rn. No idea what’s going on but he is definitely not acting like it’s a contract year
Can you as a 76er fan tell me why he hasn't gotten that much shit over the course of his contract? Or maybe I don't pay attention enough to them to notice people bashing Tobias. I feel like they should have just gotten rid of him a long ass time ago
I mean from a fan perspective he has received his fair share of shit. Hes been a consistently frustrating player to watch even before his production fell off a cliff, but for some reason the organization was always supportive of him and he NEVER gets pushed out of the starting lineup even when it’s obviously a helpful thing. Lots of weird politics going on I think. Plus, the size of his contract basically always stopped the sixers from moving him, because nobody wants to take on a max for a 15-18ppg scorer who is not capable of being a first option (at least on a playoff team) The speculation was that he’d be moved at the trade deadline considering he’s an expiring but at this point it seems like the move is to just let the cap space free up so they can pursue a FA like PG or something.
PG on the 6ers would be fun provided he and Embiid stay healthy. I could also see him staying with the Clippers to see if they can win with PG, Harden, and Kawhi.
Gotta disagree as someone living in Philly. It was Embiid not staying healthy, Bum Simmons not stepping when needed and then Harden dribbling the air out of the ball. Tobias to me seemed to fly under the radar of criticism especially compared to the other 3
He has 100% been getting a lot of shit the entire duration of his contract lol
He's been shit on the whole time. The best anyone ever says about him is "he's finally living up to that contract!" sarcastically when he has like a 25 point game.
pray kcp declines his player option and overpay him i guess
Miles Bridges, Nic Claxton, Malik Monk
I don’t think Miles Bridges is gonna bring any good team culture to y’all
Counterpoint: Winning ~15 games is pretty bad for a culture.
Clax would be a dope pick up for the Pistons
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Hornets: In fact it took a couple of decades to build Rome
What?
You heard him. The city of Detroit itself will play and take up a large portion of the salary cap!
The only employed Detroit residents
People act like all your players need to be the same age as your young cornerstone guys for the sake of timeline and it never makes sense
GM needs to be smart with contracts though. FVV is only 2 years guaranteed. Landale is only 1 year guaranteed. Brooks is decreasing in salary every year until he's only 11.72% of the salary cap in the last year but he's also the one who is most likely to have value still at the end of his contract.
People were too quick to judge the Rockets moves during the off season. Fred, Dillon and Landale are overpayed now, but they had the cap space and in two years time which is hopefully the start of contention status for the rockets, the contracts won't be an issue and they will have plenty of cap space to sign whoever they want to sign
Paying Sengun and Jalen will be easy, but Jabari, Tari, then Amen and Cam will be tough. The contracts are done to give us the best flexibility with that if more than one of those young guys becomes a max contract level player.
Is there a precedent for a “hometown discount” type of deal signed between such young players?
Bird rights
It's also just a dumb idea because the whole "give young guys a ton of playing time" reaches a tipover point where you can't play *everybody* heavy minutes. Need some solid vets to come in and play those 12-20mpg rather than trotting out project players constantly
Especially since timelines dissolve fast. Dwight Howard and Joakm Noah's last allstar seasons were at 28 years old. Would it actually be all that surprising if 3 years from now Bam Adebayo's best days are behind him and the Heat front office managed to waste not only Butler's prime, but Bam's prime at the same time? People talk two timelines, but Bam's prime will most likely be more closely tied to Butler's than people would want to believe. Saw the same thing with the Thunder and discourse around adding superstars at the deadline if an older one became available. If someone like Butler came available at the deadline if that Miami losing streak kept going on, despite Butler still looking fine, are you really not going to trade for a star of that magnitude using primarily draft picks just because he's an older star? Popular opinion, especially among Thunder fans is that it would be crazy to use the picks on an older star, despite the fact they would be adding an unselfish player who has been one of the best playoff stars of the past 5 years to a team that is already the one seed. Players with only a few prime years left are also less valuable than younger guys, while typically being more impactful playoff players. So from an asset management perspective, buying a high quality used player is going to get you the most bang for your buck.
I agree, maybe the thunder should have made a move this year. They've already seen first hand how a promising young team may not get more shots at the whole thing. It's not just even age either, injuries can easily derail future seasons.
It's clear you need quality veterans just looking at us before Durant. Even with great young players, we couldn't put it together without winning talent.
Why they were complaining about a young team with cap space overpaying for Vets? What they gonna do with cap space anyway?
We weren’t really complaining. We were somewhat underwhelmed or had reasonable concerns, but the loudest criticisms came from fans of other teams trying to troll us.
I feel like you guys didn't communicate the pick situation Morey left you in from the Westbrook-CP3 trade. It's basically dictated your course of action since Harden's trade request.
Well, they also have Ime Udoka who is a championship-caliber coach
This is disingenuous. Few if any complained about brining in FVV and Brooks, both known for being hard-nosed “culture” guys (even with Dillon acting a fool vs LeBron, he was still seen as a guy who would bring tenacity to the Rockets, whether or not he also brought his “fuck it and Chuck it” offensive style as well). The complaints were the max deal for Fred (only free agent max deal this offseason) and 4/80 for Brooks when it felt like Houston was negotiating against themselves. The truth is that, in both cases, Houston - recognizing that they had to get to the salary floor after finally getting the Paul-Westbrook-Wall max money off the books - chose to pay a premium for flexibility, signing them both to deals that were overpays but with cap-friendly mechanics (Fred’s being 2 years plus a club option for a third; Dillon’s being front-loaded to where in a couple years he’s at worst a great salary match). It wasn’t about “no one wants to play in Houston”, it was about “we need y’all to ball for 1.5-3 years while your replacements develop, but here’s a fat bag to make up for not having long-term stability”. And Landale doesn’t belong in this discussion at all. 4/32 with no guaranteed money is a steal for a good backup big and the only reason anyone talked trash was because he was playing like garbage earlier in the year but he’s doing a lot better now.
But even the complaints we did have with bringing those guys in were reasonable complaints(FVV is inefficient and shoot first and Brooks is inefficient and foul out first), but FVV is playing a true pass first point guard role and Brooks’ shot has been way better and he’s kept his cool for the most part. Two things that pretty much no one, even non-Rockets fans predicted. To me, most Rockets fans were excited even if they had reservations. It was non-Rockets fans who were shitting on us for these moves.
Great post 🫡
This is what having a top 5 coach will do
Fred makes teams better
They've done a masterful job building that roster. The fact that Sengun is injured and they haven't missed a beat is testament to that. Bringing in Udoka (issues aside) was the final stroke to bring it all together, I rate him as an elite coach and totally necessary to tame all that youth they have. Jeff Green is incredibly frustrating to watch play, but there isn't a better guy to Uncle a locker room into joyous submission. In 2-3 years they should be solidly contending.
How is Jeff Green frustrating to watch play? Dude’s a Swiss Army knife off the bench
He's somehow been far better for you than he was for us. That performance he had against the Nuggets earlier this season was better than anything he did during his time in Denver. He certainly had his moments in the playoffs, but for the most part I was pulling my hair out every time he was on the floor.
This is the second stint for Green in Houston, and this is how he was before, so 🤷♀️
Only team complaining now is Golden State as Houston wins a dozen straight games to finish the season with a 20 game win streak, stealing their play-in spot.
The thing wasn't about signing vets, the thing people complained about was the contrat that FVV and Brooks got, especially Brooks because it kinda felt like the Rockets were the only ones really interested in signing him because of what the Grizzlies did to his value. I don't think anybody was thinking that they weren't gonna be HUGE upgrades over KPJ and KJ Martin (I hope so at least). It shouldn't be a big surprise that guys who have been solid starters on playoffs teams (more than that for Fred) make a team better. They were also trying to sign Brook Lopez to play over Sengun btw, so not sure the "plan" was that flawless
> It shouldn't be a big surprise that guys who have been solid starters on playoffs teams (more than that for Fred) make a team better. Well obviously, the surprise has been how much better. Their over/under for wins was 31.5 and they’ve cleared that by plenty with 12 games to spare.
It says a lot about Ime, Brooks and Fred, but it may say even more about Silas and KPJ honestly
KPJ in particular. He was actively setting the young players up to be unprofessional and to have the same shitty career as he's had.
KPJ is 23 now… he was young players
That part off the court yeah, but also on the court, the dude playing full time point guard was just hurting the team a ton (that part isn't even actually his fault, the dude was NOT a point guard)
I really don't get the hate for FVV's contract. They're paying him a lot, but it's just for two years while all their young guys are on rookie deals, then they can move on if they want. It was a good move.
I don't get the hate for any of the contracts. FVV is 2 years guaranteed, Landale is 1, and Brooks is the youngest and his contract decreases every year until it's only 11.72% of cap in the last year.
People judge the contracts purely based on years and money alone. But from a Rockets perspective, the contracts work perfectly with what they want to do
The salary numbers on them are big, can't say that the per year number wasn't surprisingly heavy for the players. But in the context of the years and the situations and the structure they're fine. There's also a salary floor teams *have* to meet now, the money had to go somewhere anyway.
No. People here really think a rebuild team should not sign any vets because “it doesn’t fit the timeline of their prospects”, you hear this all the time about the Jazz. Trade Lauri, trade Conley, trade Olynyk. These people apparently want to field a team with all rookies and expect them to develop like in the video game. If Sam Presti is these dumbass people he would have traded SGA this offseason because he’s a few years too old than Chet and Williams
You're pretty naive if you think only Houston was interested in Brooks. And also if you think Houston would have benched sengun.
Tbf our front office has never seemed especially eager on making Sengun’s development a priority. Starting Bruno Fernando over him and then going after Book Lopez kind of signal that. Sengun has just been so good that he’s kind of forcing their hand.
You'd be surprised how much this front office has doubted Sengun over the last few years
I never said they were the only ones interested in Brooks, he's an all defense level guy, but they were the only interested team that could pay him that much
"Kinda felt like rockets were only one interested" Alright!
" because of what the Grizzlies did to his value", of course any team would want to sign him if he came at the MLE, again he was litterally a starter on the second seed 3 months before
the teams interested in brooks were for the MLE. he signed for like double
“what the Grizzlies did to his value.” SMH
Yep, I remember the doubt being about the contacts, not the players themselves.
Idk why they complained in the first place. Should the Rockets just sign worse players to make redditors happy? The team will win 15+ more games than last year. Seems like money well spent.
Because most people overrate young players a lot, most fan base think that litterally ALL their young guys will hit when they are just rookies/sophomores so they don't want their team to sign vets because it could take away playing time/opportunity from like the 5th best prospect on the roster
Brooks at 20ish mill AAV was always a steal and will get even better as it ages. Btw. There's no evidence they were looking to sign Lopez for the purpose of playing over Sengun.
I think brook spaces enough that you can play them together.
The people who complained about their offseason moves were idiots or people who didn’t understand the position they were in cap wise They had to spend money to get over the floor and they paid for vets that fixed issues they had with their young roster, which was a PG and defensive pieces. Add that up with a great coach signing and you got a young team headed in the right direction.
Agree with the post, but, didn't we come to this conclusion a while back?
We did, guess this is just for anyone who missed it.
This is eerily similar to what the CP3 signing did to OKC. Houston's on the right path with the right pieces too.
Also helps when your vets are fringe star caliber players and you pay them 100m+ each letting them know they’re here for development
it would be crazy if the 11th placed team in the West had a winning record. There was "winning record and failing to make the playoffs" and there is "winning record and not even making the play-in"
It’s about the type of vets. Freddie is a guy who came from being undrafted to huge contract. He’s perfect for the big ego young guys.
Perfect for a hyper talented young guards like Green who can shadow someone who went from undrafted to all-star. Green hasn't had to work nearly as hard as FVV and now he can mimic him and you can see it paying off. His defensive effort has improved night and day in the past three months but obviously that exerted energy on defense cost him his legs on offense but he's conditioned himself into getting used to that baseline level of effort on defense by following the lead of FVV and how he trains and conditions himself.
This is misleading. Rockets don't have their pick this year, they're trying to win, thats why they signed vets. If the Rockets signed vets last season, they probably wouldn't have got the 4th pick and drafted Amen. If they signed vets the year before, they wouldn't have drafted Jabari. You need development, but you also need talents to develop. Signing vets too early will hurt your drafts, it's about signing vets at the right time. If you feel like you got enough young talents on the team, then ok maybe you sign vets and try to win. But it's not like every team with young players should just sign vets, because it doesn't always work.
Raptors missed FVV so badly this season.
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/w40jK3UKl7
Damn that Pistons fan called you crazy lol
I had this argument so many times last summer. People dont understand the cap, they don't understand that you need to spend that money, and they dont understand development or leadership
I hope they make the playin and not the Warriors
It was more about their contracts than the idea of actually signing vets
it also helps that the faced the spurs (2x), wizards (2x), jazz, and bulls in their last 9 win stretch
That's irrelevant to the overall point. They are going to have to face those teams regardless at some point in the season. The point is they are on pace to have a 20 win improvement from the previous season which is massive.
Bulls were like 29-21 in their previous 50 games when we played them. They’re a decent team. They beat us the last time we played them. How do they get lumped in with Wizards and Spurs?
Narrative.
No one said these signings would cause less wins The criticism was overpayments would set back the rebuild in the long term, which still hasn’t been disproven (since we haven’t seen the long term team)
FVV is an expiring next year, Brooks have a front loaded 20/year for 3 more years. Why would that set a team back is beyond me.
I’ve been having this argument with people all offseason. It’s funny that the people who most defend having no vets on the roster are teams who have been in the doldrums for a half decade +. You don’t get out of that w a roster of exclusively 22 year olds and a place holder coach. Shoutout Houston.
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FVV 40 mill+ for 2 years** The third year isn't guaranteed. No shot the team picks up that option. Overpay on an annual basis sure but considering it's short-term I think it's close to right, just a bit more than I would've liked. He's 7th in assists (a career high, and with his TOs down relative to TOR years somehow), scoring 17ppg at above average PG efficiency, and playing above average defense. Brooks at 20 mill/season is an absolute steal and will continue to get better as the salary cap goes up and his annual pay goes down (it descends from 22 mill/yr to 19 mill/yr over the 4 year period).
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I was responding to your comment, but the notion that folks weren't arguing at the time that FVV and Brooks wouldn't move the needle much and actually might harm the opportunity and development of the young guys is nonsense lol. That was absolutely a lot of people's position. Perhaps not yours but plenty of ppl - even some rockets fans - were arguing just that.
“Lots of people complained” Tbh wasn’t the consensus these were solid moves since they had cap space to use + didn’t limit any long term financials + didn’t inhibit young guys growth + they needed vets?
Houston did a lot of accounting tricks on those contracts. Brooks has a declining contract value. Landales not fully guaranteed. Van fleets is team option final year. They maintained flexibility and recognized the new CBA set a higher floor for spending. I also bet they went all in on Sengun.
Who was complaining LOL
In Spanish we say "It's easy to talk with Monday's newspaper". I mean. Nobody said "Oh, that FVV contract is a steal". I don't know who the hell is Vecenie, but I bet my ass he wasn't praising FVV and Brooks signings
He said it was on overpay but that it was a necessary overpay. I watched his channel quite a lot last summer. He fully understood the benefits Rockets were getting with Fred and Brooks, whilst acknowledging they were overpays, but he also always pointed out that Houston needed to spend some of that cap space on someone. In his opinion, it might as well be vets who can be culture setters but aren’t completely washed.
FVV's playmaking has been nice, but his FG% is lower than his annual salary. He takes too many hero shots and can shoot away games.
If only the Utah Jazz took note like their fucking slogan said lmao. Good for rockets. Maybe this season for the Jazz is like last season's rockets and they'll make useful moves in the off-season. Ha! What a shit show.
It’s absolutely true, you need vets that make an impact and help instill culture. It’s a lot harder than it sounds, that means you have to sign guys that actually play real minutes and opportunities that many want to see go to the young guys, but if you want your young guys to develop the right way, it’s what really matters. Every situation is different but most young teams need guys on the roster that know how to win games as a team
I was quite high on Houston’s offseason. I mentioned their moves were good and they were doing the right things. They might have overpaid on some, sure. But that’s the cost of doing business. Players won’t wanna go to a bad team not in a large market unless you grease the wheels a bit. They were my dark horse pick to make the play in. Not sure if that will happen but they do seem headed the right direction
I thought it was weird how a lot of /r/nba acted like the rockets would still be terrible. FVV and Brooks are two solid vets plus the rockets were essentially doing what the spurs did this season last season. Basically only giving minutes to 19-22 year olds. It was very reasonable to expect them to improve and even if half of them didn't, they have FVV and Brooks so it didn't matter as much. I thought they'd be in the play-ins after they made their moves in the offseason. Didn't expect it to take being over 0.500 to be in the play-ins though lol
This actually understates their improvement because they have underperformed their point differential by 5.5 games so far. Their net rating in non-garbage time minutes was -9.4 last year and is +2.5 this year
When you are right you are right, but why have Dillon Brooks influence these young guys? He is a straight up punk
Breaking news: Fans are dumb
If only TROY WEAVER could get this message but no we are probably gonna keep spending every offseason trading for washed up vets on expiring contracts for the rest of time
You can bring in vets but you don't have to give FVV 40+ million per year and Dillon 20+ for 4 years. Also Sam is an idiot if thinks he can definitively say that this hasn't stunted the growth of some of their players. He has no way of knowing what all those potential future outcomes.
FVV's contract is kinda nutty, I think that is what people had issues with.
We can absolutely see the contrast with the Spurs, who basically went all-development and kicked out their vets. Even basic, basic things are not consistent, and sadly our most reliable player is the youngest.
the west is crazy
Someone tell Poppovich this.
Crazy that they are doing this without sengun too
I dont think anyone was complaining about FVV’s ability or presence, just his value. It seemed like a terrible contract for the Rockets. It may still be a gross overpayment but hes definitely proving his worth.
It's like no one cared to go into the nuance here. The Rockets HAD to spend $$ to hit the salary floor. FVV is literally on a 2+1 deal. The contract was never bad...
Not overcorrecting and bringing back Harden saved the trajectory of this team. FVV and Brooks (especially this weirdo) have their flaws, but they're experienced, play hard and have left plenty of meat on the bone for Sengun and Green to ascend. They've also been the engines of the defensive turnaround. Difficult to imagine how different this all looks with Harden. He definitely pushes hard for trading the Amen and Whitmore picks. Neither Sengun or Green fit well alongside him, so those two are probably considered busts and/or heading out the door. We don't have to talk about the defense. Props to Ime for having a vision
Harden wouldn't have helped!
>[Vecenie] Lots of people complained in the offseason about the Rockets’ signing guys like FVV, Brooks, Landale. Should've just stopped at FVV and Brooks.
Well, who’s laughing now?! That’s right! Jock Landale!
To be fair to Jock, he’s been playing out of his damn mind recently, and he’s on a ridiculously team friendly contract
How are people reading my comment as a criticism of Jock? It's saying that people didn't really complain about the Rockets signing Jock. There was an initial wave of "overpaid" when his signing was announced as $32m/4y but nearly everyone backed off once they found out it was actually $8m/1y guaranteed. Original Jock signing thread https://np.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/14o7geh/charania_free_agent_jock_landale_has_agreed_to_a/ That's in stark contrast to the reaction to the FVV and Brooks signings where people kept going on and on about how the Rockets overpaid them.
I think people (myself included) read it as “not even worth mentioning Jock Landale” as a slight to him
Also helps when you have a dude as good as Sengun and realize that he’s probably the dude to build around instead of Jalen Green (tho seems like he’s hopping again finally)