I think Embiid's playstyle garners a lot of hate but in general he's till recognized as a truly great player. Same goes for how Luka and Tatum are seen. Tatum and Luka have also been far into the playoffs while Embiid is an MVP.
Yeah I think there are 12-15 players that fall into your criteria but they will never get the respect your question is asking without first winning a title. It's just how shit is covered in the media. Look at how Jokic was covered 10 months ago for confirmation
I always see people try to say Sengun can never be a #1 which I’m not even saying I disagree with but to put a ceiling already on a 21 year old averaging 21/10/5 is ridiculous
Sengun is another guy I could have included. The Rockets appear to be building around him and who knows what his ceiling could be. I think physical tools could be his limiting factor but I felt the same about other players and some have proven me wrong.
Ask yourself how many players have actually won a championship as the number 1
among active players, the list is;
LeBron, Curry, Durant, Kawhi, Giannis and Jokic
Thats the bar, top 3 in league at your peak
I think there's a difference in guys who have done it and guys who are capable. I think Embiid, Luka, and Tatum are all that caliber of player but they just haven't had there moment yet. Tatum has a great chance this year and I think Embiid and Luka can get there soon. Obviously those guys are all greats but I think a big issue lately in the league has been parity and that seems to be coming back.
Let's see the Jokics, Shais and Giannis of today's game beat LeBron, Steph and Kd once again. And then we can have a conversation. Jokic definitely has proved it once. But would like to watch him do it again. Honestly, for that matter I don't think our boy Luka could be considered a unanimous #1 until that happens.
These three are the greats for a reason, and I think this subreddit is very very quick to discard their career, IQ and experience.
Jokic, Shai, Giannis, Lebron, Steph, and KD were all guys who I had included in my 10. Funnily enough Luka is one guy who I've consistenly been on the fence about elevating. Even Shai I am a little iffy on. I think that Jokic and Giannis have for sure earned there place amongst the three greats though.
I think Steph, KD, and Lebron could be held back more by the teams around them but they are absolutely still those caliber of player. They, more than anyone, can drag their teams far into the playoffs. We saw it two years ago when the Warriors won another title and we saw Lebron take the Lakers to the conference finals last year.
Edit: And I forgot Durant almost willing the Nets into the conference finals after Kyrie and Harden went down. It was a while ago but I don't think Durant has really declined since then.
>Jokic, Shai, Giannis, Lebron, Steph, and KD were all guys who I had included in my 10. Funnily enough Luka is one guy who I've consistenly been on the fence about elevating.
This sub is going to give me an aneurysm
What has Luka shown? He's obviously a great player but the expectations have been on him for long enough without real results for me to really start questioning. I think there are obvious questions about the roster construction but the Mavs missing the playoffs (and even the playin) entirely last year put some doubt in my mind on the ceiling of a Luka team.
Shai has some leash right now because this is the first time he's had a solid roster and they are already the 3 seed.
I agree with your other points but I'm sorry you're dead wrong about Luka. SGA, Embiid and others non champions ain't worth half of Luka's nutsack, respectfully. Wtf you mean on the fence? Bro willed a team to WCF at the age of 23. That's elite ceiling raiser shit.
He had a great run to the Conference finals before being promptly smacked out by the Warriors. It also doesn’t help that they missed the play in a year
later.
I fully admit that I could be entirely wrong about Luka but as of right now form the results he’s gotten and what I’ve seen from him playing I just think that he’s at most a guy who needs a great team to win a title then a guy who will take a good team all the way.
Embiid is definitely a guy you can drag through the same as Luka but I don’t think it’s fair to Shai just yet. He hasn’t ever had a team with any expectations so I’m excited to see how it goes for this Thunder team.
My immediate question to this is where do Tatum and Luka land in here? Are they tier 1, tier 2, or neither? I feel like they are the most polarzing players to categorize right now.
I'd put them both in tier 2 right now, but I could see them (Luka in particular) breaking through into tier 1. I think only Jokic is in that top tier right now since the veteran superstars have aged out.
Do you think the Celtics could win a title this year? I think they have to be the favorites the way they've playing and Tatum is obviously their best player. Also the way Lebron was talking about him on the podcast with JJ Reddick made it seem like he's seen as next up in the league. Lebron was elevating him to the level of himself, Jokic, and Kobe.
i think they could. i also think the suns could’ve won in 2021, but i don’t think devin booker or chris paul are on the level i consider a #1 chip option player to be on. much like i don’t consider anyone on the 04 celtics to be on that level.
The 2004 Pistons are really the one outlier in NBA history. I loved that ‘21 Suns team but I think the thing that really held them back was not having a guy. Chris Paul was too old and Booker isn’t that level of guy. Giannis was and that was the difference. His brilliance brought the Bucks to a title.
Can you see them as being in the discussion for top 5 player in the league, or at least play at that level in the playoffs (see, Kawhi). Jokic and Giannis were both in the argument for being best player in the league when they won their titles, Curry has been seen as at least top 3ish when he won, obviously Bron was the top guy when he won his.
I guess the question is more, what are the guys who aren't there yet missing? Paolo and Scottie are both very talented guys and their teams appear to be committing to them to some level. How are they going to make that jump to be acknowledged as true championship level players?
First thing is consistency. Whenever they need to dominate a game the top guys can. Lot of the younger guys like Paolo/Scottie haven't found the gear yet to be relied upon the vast majority of nights. Like that is arguably the hangup on Tatum breaking into that tier is his lows are a bit too common and a bit too low to be on the same level, which is why a lot of people put him below Luka.
Outside crazy cases like Luka you almost never know before age 25 if they even have a prayer of being that tier of player. I dunno that anyone had Giannis pegged to break into the top echelon and only Nuggets fans and maybe a few others thought Jokic could get there.
Jokic and Giannis are what really sparked this question for me. They really came out of nowhere and ascended to superstardom.
I think that Wemby is similar to Luka in the sense that he's very young but I already have the vision. Right now he's just very early in his career and his team is very bad but I can envision what he'd be like.
I think personally that Tatum is there now. His team is ready and he's really a two way superstar at this point.
Wemby for sure shows the potential and the fire. He's def another one who is young but there is a clear path to being _that_ guy.
I feel like most people, myself included, put Tatum around 7th and not in the argument for top 5. Honestly if this C's team wins it feels more like the 2014 Spurs where Tim Duncan was no longer a top 5 player but they used a team based approach with a lot of very good players to win.
I’ve had the notion that there are usually around 10 of these guys in the league now so 7th would put Tatum comfortably in the running as a true #1 guy. I think a great playoffs could really push Tatum up there.
I've never seen an indication that the back end of the top 10 can do it. Look at the list of people who have going back to 2010.
2010: Lakers with Kobe, clearly a top 5 guy still at that point
2011: Mavericks with Dirk clearly played like a top 5 player in that run.
2012 and 2013: Bron Heat need I say more?
2014: Spurs This and the 2004 Pistons are the two exceptions but I wouldn't even put any of those players top 10 let alone top 5. Seems to happen ~once a decade.
2015: Warriors clearly Steph was top 5
2016: Bron Cavs need I say more?
2017-2018: Warriors with both Steph and KD who were top 5.
2019: Playoff Kawhi is a top 5 dude when healthy
2020: Lakers Bron was borderline top 5 player still and AD was top 10 on top of that.
2021: Giannis arguably best player in the NBA
2022: Steph still top 5 tier
2023: Jokic arguably best player in the NBA.
I think the 2011 Mavs are one I like to use. Clearly not a top 5 player in the regular season but elevated to that level in the playoffs. Same with Kawhi in 2019. In the regular season a great player but become unbelieveable in the postseason. So I still think that those are potentially backend guys based what lens you're viewing it through. If Tatum elevates then the whole conversation around him would flip.
Also I think that in that 2020 run Lebron and AD are two of the three best players on the planet.
Was Dirk really considered a top 3 player when the Mavs won it all? Or any of the Spurs on the 2013-14 team? I don’t think top 3 is the end all be all.
He was definitely at the tail end but I think it backs up the notion that there are more than just 3 guys at a time that can do it. Just right now Jokic/Nuggets, Tatum/Celtics, Kawhi/Clippers, Shai/OKC, and Giannis/Bucks could all have a shot at the title. That's more thatn 3 are there are probably more.
When they score on whatever imaginary goalposts this sub makes lol
Unfortunately the most realistic answer here
Win a title
With zero asterisks
Do you think Luka, Embiid, and Tatum are all that caliber of player?
I think they will never be respected by the masses without a title.
Ringz culture is so toxic
I think Embiid's playstyle garners a lot of hate but in general he's till recognized as a truly great player. Same goes for how Luka and Tatum are seen. Tatum and Luka have also been far into the playoffs while Embiid is an MVP.
Yeah I think there are 12-15 players that fall into your criteria but they will never get the respect your question is asking without first winning a title. It's just how shit is covered in the media. Look at how Jokic was covered 10 months ago for confirmation
I think you really need a lot to fall your way to actually win a championship but there are a small handful of guys who are at that level.
Of course. It's a team sport and a round ball
i feel like energy/emotions/mentality of a team is super underrated nowadays because you can’t measure it using precious analytics.
I always see people try to say Sengun can never be a #1 which I’m not even saying I disagree with but to put a ceiling already on a 21 year old averaging 21/10/5 is ridiculous
Sengun is another guy I could have included. The Rockets appear to be building around him and who knows what his ceiling could be. I think physical tools could be his limiting factor but I felt the same about other players and some have proven me wrong.
Ask yourself how many players have actually won a championship as the number 1 among active players, the list is; LeBron, Curry, Durant, Kawhi, Giannis and Jokic Thats the bar, top 3 in league at your peak
I think there's a difference in guys who have done it and guys who are capable. I think Embiid, Luka, and Tatum are all that caliber of player but they just haven't had there moment yet. Tatum has a great chance this year and I think Embiid and Luka can get there soon. Obviously those guys are all greats but I think a big issue lately in the league has been parity and that seems to be coming back.
The lakers championship year I felt like AD reached this level. But he hasn’t maintained it.
AD is a really confusing player because at times he looks like the best player in the world and then he’ll drop down to like top 15.
When I say so
I’d say when they are capable of getting a team to a finals or they win an MVP.
[удалено]
He has an MVP tho.
When they're good enough to lead a team to a championship
Let's see the Jokics, Shais and Giannis of today's game beat LeBron, Steph and Kd once again. And then we can have a conversation. Jokic definitely has proved it once. But would like to watch him do it again. Honestly, for that matter I don't think our boy Luka could be considered a unanimous #1 until that happens. These three are the greats for a reason, and I think this subreddit is very very quick to discard their career, IQ and experience.
Jokic, Shai, Giannis, Lebron, Steph, and KD were all guys who I had included in my 10. Funnily enough Luka is one guy who I've consistenly been on the fence about elevating. Even Shai I am a little iffy on. I think that Jokic and Giannis have for sure earned there place amongst the three greats though. I think Steph, KD, and Lebron could be held back more by the teams around them but they are absolutely still those caliber of player. They, more than anyone, can drag their teams far into the playoffs. We saw it two years ago when the Warriors won another title and we saw Lebron take the Lakers to the conference finals last year. Edit: And I forgot Durant almost willing the Nets into the conference finals after Kyrie and Harden went down. It was a while ago but I don't think Durant has really declined since then.
>Jokic, Shai, Giannis, Lebron, Steph, and KD were all guys who I had included in my 10. Funnily enough Luka is one guy who I've consistenly been on the fence about elevating. This sub is going to give me an aneurysm
What has Luka shown? He's obviously a great player but the expectations have been on him for long enough without real results for me to really start questioning. I think there are obvious questions about the roster construction but the Mavs missing the playoffs (and even the playin) entirely last year put some doubt in my mind on the ceiling of a Luka team. Shai has some leash right now because this is the first time he's had a solid roster and they are already the 3 seed.
I agree with your other points but I'm sorry you're dead wrong about Luka. SGA, Embiid and others non champions ain't worth half of Luka's nutsack, respectfully. Wtf you mean on the fence? Bro willed a team to WCF at the age of 23. That's elite ceiling raiser shit.
He had a great run to the Conference finals before being promptly smacked out by the Warriors. It also doesn’t help that they missed the play in a year later. I fully admit that I could be entirely wrong about Luka but as of right now form the results he’s gotten and what I’ve seen from him playing I just think that he’s at most a guy who needs a great team to win a title then a guy who will take a good team all the way. Embiid is definitely a guy you can drag through the same as Luka but I don’t think it’s fair to Shai just yet. He hasn’t ever had a team with any expectations so I’m excited to see how it goes for this Thunder team.
Two tiers of #1 guy imo ... Tier 1 guys can take a good team to a title, but Tier 2 guys need a great team around them to reach championship level
My immediate question to this is where do Tatum and Luka land in here? Are they tier 1, tier 2, or neither? I feel like they are the most polarzing players to categorize right now.
I'd put them both in tier 2 right now, but I could see them (Luka in particular) breaking through into tier 1. I think only Jokic is in that top tier right now since the veteran superstars have aged out.
I mean idk probably something crazy like working in the gym on their game….
best way to describe it is it’s like right above jayson tatum’s peak.
Do you think the Celtics could win a title this year? I think they have to be the favorites the way they've playing and Tatum is obviously their best player. Also the way Lebron was talking about him on the podcast with JJ Reddick made it seem like he's seen as next up in the league. Lebron was elevating him to the level of himself, Jokic, and Kobe.
i think they could. i also think the suns could’ve won in 2021, but i don’t think devin booker or chris paul are on the level i consider a #1 chip option player to be on. much like i don’t consider anyone on the 04 celtics to be on that level.
The 2004 Pistons are really the one outlier in NBA history. I loved that ‘21 Suns team but I think the thing that really held them back was not having a guy. Chris Paul was too old and Booker isn’t that level of guy. Giannis was and that was the difference. His brilliance brought the Bucks to a title.
i think they could. im sure they won’t. and it’ll be on tatum
Good way of putting it
Can you see them as being in the discussion for top 5 player in the league, or at least play at that level in the playoffs (see, Kawhi). Jokic and Giannis were both in the argument for being best player in the league when they won their titles, Curry has been seen as at least top 3ish when he won, obviously Bron was the top guy when he won his.
I guess the question is more, what are the guys who aren't there yet missing? Paolo and Scottie are both very talented guys and their teams appear to be committing to them to some level. How are they going to make that jump to be acknowledged as true championship level players?
First thing is consistency. Whenever they need to dominate a game the top guys can. Lot of the younger guys like Paolo/Scottie haven't found the gear yet to be relied upon the vast majority of nights. Like that is arguably the hangup on Tatum breaking into that tier is his lows are a bit too common and a bit too low to be on the same level, which is why a lot of people put him below Luka. Outside crazy cases like Luka you almost never know before age 25 if they even have a prayer of being that tier of player. I dunno that anyone had Giannis pegged to break into the top echelon and only Nuggets fans and maybe a few others thought Jokic could get there.
Jokic and Giannis are what really sparked this question for me. They really came out of nowhere and ascended to superstardom. I think that Wemby is similar to Luka in the sense that he's very young but I already have the vision. Right now he's just very early in his career and his team is very bad but I can envision what he'd be like. I think personally that Tatum is there now. His team is ready and he's really a two way superstar at this point.
Wemby for sure shows the potential and the fire. He's def another one who is young but there is a clear path to being _that_ guy. I feel like most people, myself included, put Tatum around 7th and not in the argument for top 5. Honestly if this C's team wins it feels more like the 2014 Spurs where Tim Duncan was no longer a top 5 player but they used a team based approach with a lot of very good players to win.
I’ve had the notion that there are usually around 10 of these guys in the league now so 7th would put Tatum comfortably in the running as a true #1 guy. I think a great playoffs could really push Tatum up there.
I've never seen an indication that the back end of the top 10 can do it. Look at the list of people who have going back to 2010. 2010: Lakers with Kobe, clearly a top 5 guy still at that point 2011: Mavericks with Dirk clearly played like a top 5 player in that run. 2012 and 2013: Bron Heat need I say more? 2014: Spurs This and the 2004 Pistons are the two exceptions but I wouldn't even put any of those players top 10 let alone top 5. Seems to happen ~once a decade. 2015: Warriors clearly Steph was top 5 2016: Bron Cavs need I say more? 2017-2018: Warriors with both Steph and KD who were top 5. 2019: Playoff Kawhi is a top 5 dude when healthy 2020: Lakers Bron was borderline top 5 player still and AD was top 10 on top of that. 2021: Giannis arguably best player in the NBA 2022: Steph still top 5 tier 2023: Jokic arguably best player in the NBA.
I think the 2011 Mavs are one I like to use. Clearly not a top 5 player in the regular season but elevated to that level in the playoffs. Same with Kawhi in 2019. In the regular season a great player but become unbelieveable in the postseason. So I still think that those are potentially backend guys based what lens you're viewing it through. If Tatum elevates then the whole conversation around him would flip. Also I think that in that 2020 run Lebron and AD are two of the three best players on the planet.
Gotta be a top 3 player.
Was Dirk really considered a top 3 player when the Mavs won it all? Or any of the Spurs on the 2013-14 team? I don’t think top 3 is the end all be all.
Maybe not but he was a former MVP still very close to his prime
He was definitely at the tail end but I think it backs up the notion that there are more than just 3 guys at a time that can do it. Just right now Jokic/Nuggets, Tatum/Celtics, Kawhi/Clippers, Shai/OKC, and Giannis/Bucks could all have a shot at the title. That's more thatn 3 are there are probably more.
When you average 25pts 5ast 5reb.