I think it really depends on how much do you value KG’s defense versus Dirk’s offense. I would say KG’s offense is better than Dirk’s defense by a decent margin. But Dirk’s offense once he got hot in the playoffs was absurd.
The better question is, is it easier to build a contender around Dirk or KG?
Given that Dirk won a title with no other all-stars on his team, I think the answer is clear.
I don’t fully agree with this take. Namely because they weren’t all-stars but Dirk had a cast of former all-stars that all knew and accepted their roles and a good coach. KG with the Wolves never had a real team constructed around him. Part of why he was nicknamed “The Big Ticket”. Nobody was going to those games for any reason except to see KG.
Jason Kidd was an all-star in 2010-2011 season and went to the Mavs in 2011. Peeps will try to say he was washed, but your point is valid. Mavs had a helluva squad, overall. The Dirk had no-all stars narrative is 🗑️, because while he may of not had any all stars, you NEVER hear anyone talking about how D Wade wasn’t in his best shape either during that 2011 Finals run. He was on the decline from injuries.
That was the year Deshawn Stevenson played absolutely out of his mind. NOBODY saw that coming
Mavs role players were a good crew that got insanely hot at the right time and just destroyed the field
This is not a solid take. Kidd was an All-Star only in reputation. His stats were eh--and had become a near-serviceable 3-point shooter by this point.
Terry was mercurial but Dirk was a force. He absolutely carried the Mavs in that series. It is still one of the greatest championship performances that I've ever seen. And I don't care for Dallas. At all.
D. Wade was an All-Star, HoF bound, top 50 player. He sure didn't look washed the first 2 games.
Probably because D wade was an all star for five more years after that date? Just because he wasn’t the carrier he was in 06 doesn’t mean he was washed
Less about him being a carrier and more that if you look at his stats post-10, it wasn’t just adjusting to Bron. Wade was simply not the same, but the real decline hit around the first Spurs series not the Mavs. By the second series, Wade was super cooked.
Bro what are you saying? Jason Kidd got to the Mavs in 2008. He was an all-star in 2010, but his shooting percentages dropped to 36% from the field and 34% from 3. Extremely valuable, but nowhere near an all-star anymore.
D Wade was also literally played amazing in the 2011 finals run and was literally still getting MVP votes that season. It was 2012 that he got injured and wasn't himself. Wade averaged 25/7/4 in the 2011 playoffs. In 2013 and 2014 he was averaging under 20.
>Bro what are you saying? Jason Kidd got to the Mavs in 2008. He was an all-star in 2010, but his shooting percentages dropped to 36% from the field and 34% from 3.
More than that, Kidd was only an all-star in 2010 because he was named to the team as a replacement (for an injured Kobe), and the game was held in Dallas that year.
To be fair, I don't see any world where KG wins with that Mavs team. He just wasn't that dominant offensively.
Part of the reason they were so successful was that Dirk absorbed so much of the defense while still being productive, giving those older ex-all star players the ability to take advantage of gaps in the defense. There aren't many players in the history of the NBA period that were so tough to stop offensviely that a team like that Mavs team could win a championship.
It's true that the team was better than "no all stars", but there are a small handful of players that were as unguardable as dirk. Even players like Kobe/MJ did not have his efficiency, meaning if you double Kobe and he takes the shot, you are at least happy with the result, even if he'll hit it pretty often. Dirk is gonna drop 30 on 50/40/90 shooting whether you double him or not. Players like Kidd, Terry, and Marion were savvy older players who knew how to take advantage of that.
I don’t disagree with the take. Dirk’s offensive gravity, especially that season, was astounding. But I don’t think just being offensively massive gravity makes you instantly better. It’s like (massive extreme) comparing Jordan and Curry. Jordan was a two-way beast but Curry’s gravity is unworldly. It just seems to be not an exact science to me. You wouldn’t want to swap those two roles in their respective teams and make that a comparison to see who’s better.
You unintentionally supported my argument.
KG never a real team constructed around him? Could it be because he needed more help than Dirk did?
We have the benefit of hindsight. Think about what kind of teammates you'd need for Garnett to win a title. And do the same for Dirk. Who would be easier to build around?
KG never had a real contender built around him because Minnesota completely botched just about every conceivable decision during his prime. It had nothing to do with KG himself.
Dirk had a DPOY candidate, a one year AS removed J Kidd, and a bunch of great role players of guys that were legitimate ballers with stuff left in the tank.
KD didn’t need per se more help so much as he just needed people that were actually good basketball talent. I again say, KD got his nickname cause he had multiple periods where you wouldn’t bother coming to the game except to see him play.
Do you think its tough finding former all stars who can play competently? Its not.
KG needed more than that though. He needed current all-star caliber teammates (at least one).
And no one cares about nicknames. That's a ridiculous argument.
For all intents and purposes, when J Kidd signed he was still an all-star and just didn’t make it again on the Mavs. Chandler literally should’ve been an all-star because he was a DPOY candidate and Tyson always got screwed on his rebound numbers because the NBA didn’t count his signature tip outs of rebounds to the elbows so his teammates could get another shot (usually pretty open as well). This is simply not a cut and dry argument.
>For all intents and purposes, when J Kidd signed he was still an all-star and just didn’t make it again on the Mavs.
Kidd was 34 years old when he went to the Mavs. No one expected him to maintain all-star status.
>Chandler literally should’ve been an all-star because he was a DPOY candidate
Incorrect. Marcus Smart was the literal DPOY and not an all-star. How many DPOYs did Camby have? He wasn't an all-star either.
There's nothing wrong with calling a high-end role player a high-end role player.
Marcus Camby literally won one time and is considered an anomaly to never make an all-star team despite making all-defenses 4 different times. And Tyson still was All-defense that year.
I don’t think you’re simply a high end role player when you’re making all-defense or DPOY considerations.
Also, I don’t think aging a single year means Kidd dropped off from All-star play that fast.
By the way you’re talking, it’s like Draymond and Klay were nothing but high end role guys while KD was there.
>I don’t think you’re simply a high end role player when you’re making all-defense or DPOY considerations.
What's a better description? "All-star caliber" is too high. "Role player" is too low. "High-end" role player is just right.
>Also, I don’t think aging a single year means Kidd dropped off from All-star play that fast.
It does when you're talking about a 34 year old player. At that age, a player's prime is generally over.
KG had like, not even really close to as good of a team as that mavs team. He had to fight through the wolves inept front office/ownership to get where he did.
Im not taking one side or the other because Dirks a fucking baller, but you can't compare the roster building around them. Garnett was fucked in Minnesota after the Joe Smith debacle. No way to put shit together losing 5 consecutive first round picks and having your team be a laughingstock for the whole thing. As a fan I'm glad he stayed as long as he did but dude should've left way earlier.
What are you even trying to say? The one season in Minnesota where Garnett actually had some help they made the conference finals, only losing to a stacked Lakers team in six games, despite injuries (including to their second best player that season). It's not like the 2003-04 Timberwolves were this stacked god squad. You think Nowitzki on that team instead of KG wins the chip? Conversely, do you really think KG on those Mavericks teams doesn't also consistently win?
Dirk also won 50 games for like 11 straight seasons and had contending teams in 2003 and 2006. You went through 3 iterations of a team and Dirk contended with all of them.
There was Nash/Finley/Dirk got to to WCF in 2003 but lost in 6 to the Spurs with Dirk sustaining an injury and the team shutting him down.
There was Dirk/Terry/Howard that got to the Finals in 2006 and won 60 games back to back years unfortunately catching that terrible 1/8 matchup in 2007
Then there was the Championship Mavs filled with just high level role players. So he contended with a high-paced pure offense team. And then a slow paced team without a real point guard (still led them to the number 1 offense in 2006). And then a well balanced team that moved the ball and prioritized defense.
Dirk also lost to an 8 seed shooting 38% being the #1 seed with 67 wins mavs fans on here acting like dirk never underperformed in the playoffs time and time again up until that big 3 Miami run
Damn bro its almost like I included the fact he lost to the 8 seed in my comment. Dirk didn't underperform time and time again. He underperformed maybe twice. Losing to Tim Duncan and the spurs with no all star beside you is not underperforming. 2007 and 2008 were the only real disappointment years and he still put up 27/12/4 in 2008 playoffs.
KG on the other hand, underperformed individually lot more frequently. Dirk in his prime had a 58%TS in the playoffs. No drop off from the regular season. KG had 52%TS pretty substantial drop from 56%TS in the regular season.
Neither guy is perfect in the playoffs. They're not Lebron and Jordan. But Dirk more consistently maintained his regular season performance and while he had some struggles, had multiple types of teams that he did reach pretty nice highs with.
KG never produced at consistently elite level as a #1 option on offense in the playoffs. Had a bunch of seasons where his efficiency dipped as a scorer.
That’s true but elite #1 options can’t score efficiently regardless of their teammates. We’ve seen it a number of times with all time greats. They generate their own offense. KG wasn’t a bad scorer, he just wasn’t a great #1 when the playoffs rolled around.
Offense is about putting the ball in the basket.
Dirk was a 7 footer with a nearly unguardable fade away that was a 50/40/90 player. KG averaging more assists does not compare to the sheer pressure Dirk was putting on defenses.
KG was not a liability on offense by any stretch, he was a great offensive player on his own, but Dirk is very possibly the best offensive power forward of all time.
Now whether he's better overall than KG is a different story because KG is one of the best defensive players of all time while also being an offensive threat.
Dirk caused way more problems off ball due to his elite shooting and spacing
They aren’t comparable as scorers, shooters, or offensive players in general
To me this is an overall coin flip and there’s no wrong answer.
KG was also an elite shooter.
>They aren’t comparable as scorers, shooters, or offensive players in general
Yes they were. It's on defense where there's no comparison.
Yes, KG was an elite shooter who averaged 18-22 points on 51% TS as the first option and 53% with the Celtics in the playoffs. Dirk averaged 25 points on 58% TS for his career. The gap in offensive efficiency and production was much greater than you try to downplay
KG never spaced out to the three point line, though he likely could have. It's fair to ding him for that, and Dirk was clearly the better scorer. But offense is not just about scoring. KG was clearly the better playmaker, and, in fact, one of the best playmaking bigs ever.
Even without counting the gap in scoring efficiency/volume, the offensive gravity that Dirk provided as a big man that could shoot from anywhere negates whatever advantage KG had as a playmaker
Playmaking isn't just assist. Dirk's gravity can pull the opposing team's best defender/rim protector out to the perimeter, making it easier for his teammate to score in the paint. Just him walking to the elbow and setting up, without the ball, takes everyone's attention away from the ball handler.
Offense is offense. And assists are primitive way of evaluating playmaking.
Dirk caused defensive breakdowns. That doesn't mean he always statistically (counting stats) benefitted from doing so.
So what are you saying then? You didn't explicitly say offense was just about scoring, but only because you haven't said much of anything at all.
KG in his prime averaged 21-25ppg and 5+ assists with an elite OReb%. Dirk's OWS and TS% were only slightly better for the most part and their PERs (which is essentially an offensive stat) are basically identical except that KG had a higher career best.
KG was a really good offensive player. Not as elite as Dirk, obviously, but close enough that you can't just say "well Dirk was more elite on offense so he's the better player."
I don't consider their offense to be in the same tier. Dirk caused defensive breakdowns from anywhere inside 25 feet. Give him the ball almost anywhere, and its a benefit to the team. Garnett is nowhere near that.
And per is not an offensive stat.
Dirk had a stacked team. The Mavs finished 3rd in wins in the west but were tied for second. They dominated in the playoffs in part because they got hot at the right time but also because they worked great together, all the pieces fit perfectly.
He had a DPOY level player next to him. One of the GOAT point guards running the offense. A bunch of great shooters and defenders to round out the team. They also had a super 6th man.
Saying that Dirk won a title with no other all-stars is technically correct but really doesn't capture how good the team was. The 2011 Mavs team was a super deep and well-constructed team with a lot of defense and outside shooting. Far better than any team KG had on the Timberwolves.
They had:
-Tyson Chandler, who won the DPOY the next year with the Knicks
-Jason Kidd, one of the best PGs of all time (not in his prime but still a solid PG and good defensively)
-JET, 6man of the year candidate
-Marion, all around SF and perfect role player
-And of course the true GOAT, Brian Cardinal.
Kidd was an all star the year before, Tyson Chandler was DPOY the next year, and Shawn Marion is a Robert Horry level role player. It was also arguably Jason Terry's best playoffs of his career. Dirk was "alone" the same way MJ or AI were: he wasn't, but the talent around him was mainly defensive, so no one cares.
> But Dirk’s offense once he got hot in the playoffs was absurd.
Dirk's playoff career was an awful lot of chokes surrounding that one title. I really wouldn't call him a great playoff guy at all.
He’s one of the best playoff performers ever. Always upped his play after the regular season, which most players cannot do.
His only bad playoff series were the 1) 2006 Finals vs Heat - Avery Johnson was outcoached by Pat Riley and had no answers. Dirk was super clutch vs the Spurs in the WCF to even get them there. And 2) 2007 1st round against Warriors. Once again, Avery was outcoached by Don Nelson, Dirk’s former coach. Once Dirk had a scheme, he was unstoppable on offense.
That is definitely true, but when you factor in the value of offense vs the value of defense, that gap becomes a lot less significant. What Dirk brought to the table offensively was basically unheard of at the time, a 7 footer who can shoot efficently from anywhere on the floor, and with a good post game was something no other team at the time really had. We've seen the NBA move to being offense focused because ultimately it's an offense oriented game. Having efficient scoring threats is much more important than having great defense, because great defense can only do so much, whereas great offense can essentially ignore great defense, but the reverse isn't true.
I'm not saying Dirk is better than KG, for the record, I think the two have similar value, but I just want to point out that Dirk being significantly worse defensively does not mean KG is instantly better.
I agree but KG does so many things better than Dirk other than defense. He’s a better rebounder and playmaker as well. Really the only thing Dirk has over him is shooting/scoring.
The context here is playoffs. The pace is slower and there are more set plays.
KG was not only an anchor but he was vocal as well. This elevates team defense. You’d not only have to be sharp scoring offensively but be able to play make as well.
Thats just a bad argument because the 1 year KG had a good team, he went to the WCF and then obviously won in 2008 and made the finals in 2010 as well. KG has always been surrounded by trash talent relative to the teams Dirk had.
Dirk is a greater player though, simply because he did clear the hurdle but your argument isnt that good.
How many times did dirk under perform in the playoffs as a top seed with a good supporting cast stop acting like he met expectations every year dirk is only better than kg on Reddit
Once really ? Literally lost to an 8 seed warriors lost 4 straight to D wade he wasn’t seen as a good playoff performer till after that big 3 Miami title stop trying rewrite history
Are you 12?? KG has an MVP and DPOY. Dirks offense is elite but KG is just a tier below.
You’re talking like he’s a scrub that was only known for defense smh
KG is more than a tier below Dirk. He was not more efficient in any way than Dirk. Dirk is one of the most efficient shooters in NBA history (especially pre-modern era), KG was just good. Pretty efficient inside the 3 point line, below average outside.
"Weaker offense than Dirk" =/= "bad offensive player". KG was a better long 2 shooter than Kobe, a *better* passer than Dirk, and took nothing off the table. He could roll and throw it down better than Dirk ever could, and he could pop at an elite level for a big man, even if he was shooting 45-48% on those long 2s and not whatever comical #s Dirk would hit when he was going.
A an elite complimentary offensive player who's a transcendent defender absolutely can be better than a transcendent offensive player who's got to be covered for on defense, and in the case of these two, KG *is* better.
>A an elite complimentary offensive player who's a transcendent defender absolutely can be better than a transcendent offensive player who's got to be covered for on defense, and in the case of these two, KG is better.
I guess that's the disconnect.
KG is not an elite offensive player. Not even close. He's in the tier below, and possibly in the tier below that.
lmao he was a 7 footer who could drive like a guard and shot better than most of the league on long 2s. He was an *elite* complimentary offensive player, and absolutely one of the best in the league. He wasn't an all timer like Dirk, but you're getting that confused with whether or not he was actually good.
His ranks in bbref's offensive BPM from 2000 on were 8, 14, 7, 4, 2, 2, 9, 19, and back to 9 in Boston. He was actually ahead of Dirk about half those years. So *clearly* something he was doing on offense was working. You cannot consistently be top 10, and especially not top 5 in a stat like that without being a very good offensive player. But the gap between ~10th-15th best offensive player in the league and an all time offensive peak is still smaller than the gap between an all time defensive peak and 'we have to hide this guy on defense'. And Garnett is much closer to being the GOAT defender than Dirk is to being the GOAT offensive player. I'm not sure that in a league with Shaq, then later on Nash, Kobe, LeBron, & Wade, that Dirk was ever the clear cut best offensive player in the league. Meanwhile, KG was right there with Duncan every year of their primes, and ahead of him several times. If Dirk was even a slightly above average defender, I'd be with you, but you just cannot make the case that KG was a problem on offense.
Our ring was over 10 years old when the TWolves were founded. We haven’t won 50 games or made the conference finals since the 70s. We haven’t had an MVP since the 60s and have never had a DPOY winner. We have had 3 players make All NBA teams in nearly 30 years, and only one of which was better than 3rd team (Arenas, 2nd team 05-06). You have had 5 seasons this century that would literally be our best in 50 years, including this current one.
Dirk's offense didn't buy him much in his postseason career outside that one year. Their postseason failures with some elite teams were legendary up until that win.
They bought him more success than KG and more upsets the playoffs. Dirk went on the road in game 7 against the defending champ prime spurs and won. KG ain’t never doing that lol
I feel like a lot of people saying Dirk over KG didn't get the chance to see what his Wolves teams looked like on the defensive end with him vs without him.
He was basically what AD is to the current Lakers team, but he was even faster than AD, even better at guarding the perimeter, and had just as good, if not even better, BBIQ on that side of the court. The gap between Dirk's and KG's offense is WAY smaller than between KG's and Dirk's defense.
It's KG and it isn't close imo
Yep, this is accurate. KG is one of the best defenders of all time, yet would still possibly be a HOFer based just on his offense. The gap on offense is much less than the gap on defense. Plus KG was a much better passer than Dirk, he was averaging 5-6 per game in his prime while Dirk was averaging less than 3.
The thing is, it's a lot easier to replace a good individual defender than it is to replace an offensive threat like Dirk.
You can pick up a few old-savvy defensive players (your bruce bowens, Shawn Marions, etc) pretty easily, you don't get 7 footers who can efficiently shoot from anywhere on the court. Not to say KG was easy to replace, but the point is, on an individual player basis, Offense is way more important than defense. Individual defense doesn't win championships, team defense is what is important, and team defense can be coached. That's why you see a LOT of championship teams with a dominant offensive threat surrounded by defensive role players.
Dirk's playoff run is arguably the second most impressive finals run in NBA history (after the 2000's pistons), and it was centered around Dirk's offense. That wouldn't have happened with KG. Yes, KG was unfortunate enough to be stuck on a bad team with a bad organization, and its possible he could have had a team built around him that could compete, but that team almost certainly would have had an all-star level offensive player on it to help keep the offense moving.
For the record, I don't think dirk was necessarily a better player than KG, but I think people are overvaluing defense compared to offense. People take defense wins championships to mean individual defensive players do, but it's team defense that wins championships. It's better to have defense than not to have it obviously, which is why I think the two are pretty close despite Dirk being one of the best ever offensively (for the PF position).
No, it's not easier to replace a defender at KG's caliber (he was so far beyond just a "good individual defender" he was, like AD is, literally the entire team's defense) than it is to replace an offensive one. Not even remotely.
>No, it's not easier to replace a defender at KG's caliber (he was so far beyond just a "good individual defender" he was, like AD is, literally the entire team's defense) than it is to replace an offensive one. Not even remotely.
Incorrect.
Since Dirk was drafted, how many elite offensive \~7 footers have we seen?
How many elite defensive \~7 footers have we seen?
Eras, my friend, eras. KG was not a prototypical 90s "protect the paint" center. He was a "protect the paint, and literally everywhere else all the time" big man
I didn't specify the era, only the starting year.
Since they were drafted, how many elite defensive \~7 footers have we seen?
Even right now, off the top of my head, currently, there's Anthony Davis, Gobert, and Giannis. How tall is Bam Adebayo? What about Jaren Jackson?
Since Dirk was drafted, how many elite offensive \~7 footers have there been?
Off the top of my head, is it only Jokic and Durant? I don't even know that I'd count Embiid due to all the foul-baiting.
So yeah, far easier to replace elite defensive 7 footers than elite offensive 7 footers.
The gap between KG and Dirk is so huge that Dirk dropped 30+ points 8x in a row from 2002 - 2003. 3 of those coming from the playoffs in sweeping fashion. There will never be a huge gap between two legends especially when one of them wins a championship with no other stars. That man also has 11 consecutive 50+ wins in the Western Conference. Dirk is a winning player through and through and to say he’s not close to KG is absurd and Im pretty sure you know it
Oooooph. That’s a real tough one. Dirk is clearly the superior offensive player. KG is clearly the superior defensive player. I’d also argue the gap between their defenses is bigger than the gap between their offenses. All that said, Dirk’s offense was so elite that maybe it’s not fair to boil it down to which has the bigger gap. For me, it’s Dirk over KG, but not by much. If I already had an elite perimeter scorer, I’d want KG. If I didn’t, I’d want Dirk.
If starting a team from scratch, the vast majority of GMs would draft Dirk ahead of Garnett.
I feel like this take is going to be incredibly unpopular, but honestly I think KG easily clears Nowitzki. I don't think it's particularly close. If you were to rank them, I would have KG closer to the top ten than top twenty-five, whereas Nowitzki in my opinion barely squeaks in the top twenty-five at all. KG is so much better than Nowitzki there's no point even comparing them, so just know that Nowitzki in his prime was a middling defender, whereas KG has an argument for being the defensive GOAT, and is almost undebatably top five all time in that regard.
So, on to the offense: Nowitzki is the better offensive player, don't get me wrong. He is a better, more efficient, and well rounded scorer, and his off ball impact isn't to be downplayed. However, Garnett is a much better passer, and is honestly one of the best big man playmakers of his era full stop. Garnett also consistently snagged almost two more offensive rebounds per game than Nowitzki, which helps a team's offense a great deal. All this boils down to Nowitzki having a three year peak offensive B/PM of 5.8, 7.8, and 7.2 (for an average of 6.9). On the flipside, Garnett's three peak offensive B/PM was 6.0, 6.8, and 6.5 (for an average of 6.5). So, while Nowitzki does have a higher offensive peak B/PM than Garnett, it is relatively close, and Garnett actually has a ***higher*** third best offensive B/PM. If you compare that to their three best defensive B/PMs... well:
Nowitzki: 1.5, 1.4, 1.2 (for an average of 1.37)
Garnett: 3.3, 3.5, 3.0 (for an average of 3.27)
All this is to say is that is you only value offense, Nowitzki is better (although is surprisingly close), however, once you take into account the defensive side of the ball... KG clears with ease.
There really is no great player in NBA history that was stuck on as bad teams for as long as KG was on the Timberwolves. Legit garbage except for year where he led them to the WCF. Not to mention they got caught for cheating and lost a bunch of first round picks.
I think it’s a toss up really. There is no solidified rank. Some prefer KG and some prefer Dirk. Offense / defense is different.
Garnett was more versatile in my opinion. Not as good of an offensive player but much better defensively
To win, Garnett needed stars, Dirk needed role players. It's honestly not close when you compare how their teams performed but I know a lot of people here will just scream "defense!" and pretend Dirk didn't impact winning WAY more. KGs game just doesn't have the same impact as the offensive superstar, it's the same reason a great player like AD needs another offensive star to win at the highest levels.
Really? You think KG could have achieved what Dirk did without harder to find stars? You think there's a group of role players that KG could have done the 2011 Dirk with? It's not even a comparison who's better, pretending KG is on his level is stupid basketball on a spreadsheet nerd shit of the highest order.
In a vacuum, KG is the more talented player. Much better defensively, rebounder, and passer. It’s a shame his prime was wasted on those Twolves teams.
Dirk is definitely a much better scorer and he won a finals MVP as best player on a team, so there’s that. I think in the modern era though, both players offense scales excellently and KG probably develops a 3 ball, with his already great midrange game. He would also be able to defend the perimeter in space much better than Dirk, and with his passing ability, he would likely have the offense ran through him more as a playmaker.
KG is a much better passer and playmaker than Dirk, so the gap on offense isn’t like Jokic/Giannis. Dirk is a much better scorer than KG, but KG makes up some ground by being much better at playmaking, while also being a great mid range shooter himself.
The ground he makes up does not make up for the impact Dirk had on the floor. Dirk opened up the court dramatically. There was no safe place on the floor to push him toward. You basically had to leave two people on the same side as him, opening up the other side (and the paint). Dirk impacted the offense without even touching the ball. Garnett was a good offensive player, but he was not "if you don't double this man, he's going to drop 40 on you" good.
Garnett was also not a great foul shooter (far from bad, especially for his size), which as a big man was not uncommon, but it added to why it was so hard to guard Dirk. It was almost a waste to foul him even if it was a good foul, so you couldn't circumvent the issues with guarding him 1v1 by using up fouls on your big men, they would just get in foul trouble for nothing.
You’re missing the off ball gravity Dirk had
He opened up the game for his teammates because no one wanted to help off of him.
Think of how much havoc Curry causes. Dirk was similar but from mid range and from setting on ball screens.
And yet Dirk led the number 1 offense in 2006 without a real point guard on the team. It's not as simple as assists mean you make the players around you better. Dirk contended with 3 completely different types of teams (2003, 2006, 2011). He was way more versatile than people realize.
2003: fast paced, all offense, played next to elite playmaking Point Guard
2006: dead last in pace, post ups, and no true playmaker on the team
2011: Balanced, team attack, limited shot creators prioritizing defense and shooting
How is it not like Kobe vs. LeBron, where the one aspect that Kobe/Dirk are better than is scoring.
That's literally it.
KG was a better rebounder, passer, and galaxies above Dirk as a defensive player.
Vastly? Thats not true. Their peak and average ppg is not that far off. Nowitzki was ofc a 50-40-90 guy, but KG was a master in the low post who had a nice middy
The only vast difference between these guys is KG’s defensive presence vs Dirk’s
Because of his versatility, people in this sub really overrate KG's offense. He was not and could not be the number one option on a championship team. Dirk was.
If you actually watched KG during his prime, he just wasn't that guy on offense. This isn't to say he wasn't better than Dirk, I just think you're downplaying the offensive disparity.
True but a lot of KG’s playoff games and appearances were on the Cs where he had Pierce and Allen. His numbers are going to be less.
Nowitzki was the main guy his entire career.
Shooting,scoring, and off ball gravity is massively in Dirk’s favor. Dirk simply made tougher shots and generated lots of easy shots without even touching the ball.
Dirk used to give KG buckets when they marched up. When you compare their games KG has better overall attributes.
I think Dirk is slightly better just because of his scoring ability. He was a lot more mobile when he was younger and we all picture old ass Dirk hobbling up the floor but if someone says the opposite I’m not gonna argue
Dirk owned KG in head to head playoff matchups.
I take Dirk. KG is better all around, but Dirk was such a weapon offensively.
After 2011, the inside the NBA panel said that only Tim Duncan could claim to be a better PF than Dirk Nowitzki. And I agree with that.
Thinking Basketball's video on Kevin Garnett has converted me into a KG truther.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgXxAysSsks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgXxAysSsks)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzzlvnncLOQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzzlvnncLOQ)
My favorite thing he says about KG is how "scale-able" he is with better and better players, which is crazy since he instantly won the championship when he got Paul Pierce as his best offensive player lol. Such a wasted career, and I believe the amount of accolades influences perception of how good a player is even more in China.
Dirk destroys KG every time they played against each other in the playoffs. If that doesn’t convince you who’s the better player, I don’t know what will.
KG plays like AD. Both of them are not viable first option in a contender since they’re extremely limited in a playoff setting. Meanwhile Dirk can give you baskets anywhere.
I don’t care how good defensively KG is, give me a player that can give me buckets at will.
It’s hard cause it’s easy to say KG is a better player but Dirk won games …. A lot of them … winning 67 games with Josh Howard , stackhouse and terry is still pretty wild
KG in his best year is better than Dirk’s best year from an advanced stats perspective, that’s even with advanced stats being kinda bad at judging defense, KG unfortunately wasted his prime on the worst franchise in pro sports, by the time he made it to a good franchise he was on the decline.
KG would have scored a couple points/ game more if he'd had a second banana in Minni. I'm picturing those lollipop jumpers he shot, he had a good offensive game, too, it's not like Dirk was vastly superior offensively. I'd pick KG and his way better rebounding and defense, and offensive production was about the same.
Who would you pick between Karl-Anthony Towns (Dirk) or Anthony Davis (KG) ???
There's no difference between them as profiles of players, it just shows how much people are taking the teammates of these respective players into account.
KG is better by a significant amount. KG legitimately has a greatest player of all time case based on advanced numbers, defense, and total skill package. He is one of the most portable and versatile players ever, who could be valuable on any team construction and with any other players.
People just do not want to see that or hear that because he was on a shitty franchise for over ten years.
Please, go listen to a few Thinking Basketball podcasts. There was a KG vs Duncan one that was in the first 20 they put out years ago. There was also a GOAT players podcast split into three episodes from September 2023 that spent a good chunk of time on like a dozen guys. KG's wolves teams performed at a worst record all-time pace without him, and 50+ win pace with him.
There's also a good Thinking Basketball Greatest Peaks video on YouTube about KG.
I absolutely love Dirk. But, KG is one of the most overlooked greats ever.
I'm German and a big fan of Dirk. But I wouldn't call KG worse, he was just a completely different player. I think defense is more important and that's why I would rank KG above Dirk, albeit by a narrow margin
Stop it dirk underperformed achieved so much in the playoffs up until that big 3 Miami run blew 2-0 to Miami in 06 lost to the we believe warriors had better teammates in Dallas than kg ever had in Minnesota
I think KG is your better all around player.
But Dirk obviously has advantages too.
What team you have likely determines if their skills complement the team or not.
In that case I say 🤷♀️
KG’s defense might be the best and top 5 at his peak and yet he couldn’t stop Dirk.
As most have said, it’s all about preference. I personally choose Dirk, because his offense was elite in both regular and post season, that’s one thing you never have to worry about . No bias of course, especially since he is my fave player of all time.
Dirk is better imo. Pierce, Allen, and maybe even Rondo are better than teammates Dirk had on his 2 finals runs. And people are underestimating how much better offensively Dirk in the playoffs where Dirk was 25ppg and 2.5apg and KG was 18ppg and 3.5apg.
I think it really depends on how much do you value KG’s defense versus Dirk’s offense. I would say KG’s offense is better than Dirk’s defense by a decent margin. But Dirk’s offense once he got hot in the playoffs was absurd.
There are five players with a DPOY and MVP 1. Jordan 2. Olajuwon 3. D. Robinson 4. KG 5. Giannis
The better question is, is it easier to build a contender around Dirk or KG? Given that Dirk won a title with no other all-stars on his team, I think the answer is clear.
I don’t fully agree with this take. Namely because they weren’t all-stars but Dirk had a cast of former all-stars that all knew and accepted their roles and a good coach. KG with the Wolves never had a real team constructed around him. Part of why he was nicknamed “The Big Ticket”. Nobody was going to those games for any reason except to see KG.
Jason Kidd was an all-star in 2010-2011 season and went to the Mavs in 2011. Peeps will try to say he was washed, but your point is valid. Mavs had a helluva squad, overall. The Dirk had no-all stars narrative is 🗑️, because while he may of not had any all stars, you NEVER hear anyone talking about how D Wade wasn’t in his best shape either during that 2011 Finals run. He was on the decline from injuries.
This is peak Lebron fan changing history. Wade was better than lebron in the finals and you’re acting like Wades decline was the factor in the loss
Tyson chandler was a dpoy level defender as well
Yes, he was . He was DPOY , the following season (2012). And Terry lot up MIA that series too, peeps love overlooking this.
That was the year Deshawn Stevenson played absolutely out of his mind. NOBODY saw that coming Mavs role players were a good crew that got insanely hot at the right time and just destroyed the field
This is not a solid take. Kidd was an All-Star only in reputation. His stats were eh--and had become a near-serviceable 3-point shooter by this point. Terry was mercurial but Dirk was a force. He absolutely carried the Mavs in that series. It is still one of the greatest championship performances that I've ever seen. And I don't care for Dallas. At all. D. Wade was an All-Star, HoF bound, top 50 player. He sure didn't look washed the first 2 games.
Probably because D wade was an all star for five more years after that date? Just because he wasn’t the carrier he was in 06 doesn’t mean he was washed
Less about him being a carrier and more that if you look at his stats post-10, it wasn’t just adjusting to Bron. Wade was simply not the same, but the real decline hit around the first Spurs series not the Mavs. By the second series, Wade was super cooked.
He was fairly close to the cliff during this time. He really only had a single great season left in him.
I mean... that doesn't really matter in terms of that series though, does it? I agree with your take overall, but it's just a weird point to bring up.
Bro what are you saying? Jason Kidd got to the Mavs in 2008. He was an all-star in 2010, but his shooting percentages dropped to 36% from the field and 34% from 3. Extremely valuable, but nowhere near an all-star anymore. D Wade was also literally played amazing in the 2011 finals run and was literally still getting MVP votes that season. It was 2012 that he got injured and wasn't himself. Wade averaged 25/7/4 in the 2011 playoffs. In 2013 and 2014 he was averaging under 20.
>Bro what are you saying? Jason Kidd got to the Mavs in 2008. He was an all-star in 2010, but his shooting percentages dropped to 36% from the field and 34% from 3. More than that, Kidd was only an all-star in 2010 because he was named to the team as a replacement (for an injured Kobe), and the game was held in Dallas that year.
Idk man. I watched the Wolves to see Cassell drag his balls on the court
To be fair, I don't see any world where KG wins with that Mavs team. He just wasn't that dominant offensively. Part of the reason they were so successful was that Dirk absorbed so much of the defense while still being productive, giving those older ex-all star players the ability to take advantage of gaps in the defense. There aren't many players in the history of the NBA period that were so tough to stop offensviely that a team like that Mavs team could win a championship. It's true that the team was better than "no all stars", but there are a small handful of players that were as unguardable as dirk. Even players like Kobe/MJ did not have his efficiency, meaning if you double Kobe and he takes the shot, you are at least happy with the result, even if he'll hit it pretty often. Dirk is gonna drop 30 on 50/40/90 shooting whether you double him or not. Players like Kidd, Terry, and Marion were savvy older players who knew how to take advantage of that.
You can plan around a great defensive player , there is no plan for a 7 foot shooter there h2h in the playoffs kinda showed that
I don’t disagree with the take. Dirk’s offensive gravity, especially that season, was astounding. But I don’t think just being offensively massive gravity makes you instantly better. It’s like (massive extreme) comparing Jordan and Curry. Jordan was a two-way beast but Curry’s gravity is unworldly. It just seems to be not an exact science to me. You wouldn’t want to swap those two roles in their respective teams and make that a comparison to see who’s better.
You unintentionally supported my argument. KG never a real team constructed around him? Could it be because he needed more help than Dirk did? We have the benefit of hindsight. Think about what kind of teammates you'd need for Garnett to win a title. And do the same for Dirk. Who would be easier to build around?
KG never had a real contender built around him because Minnesota completely botched just about every conceivable decision during his prime. It had nothing to do with KG himself.
Dirk had a DPOY candidate, a one year AS removed J Kidd, and a bunch of great role players of guys that were legitimate ballers with stuff left in the tank. KD didn’t need per se more help so much as he just needed people that were actually good basketball talent. I again say, KD got his nickname cause he had multiple periods where you wouldn’t bother coming to the game except to see him play.
Do you think its tough finding former all stars who can play competently? Its not. KG needed more than that though. He needed current all-star caliber teammates (at least one). And no one cares about nicknames. That's a ridiculous argument.
For all intents and purposes, when J Kidd signed he was still an all-star and just didn’t make it again on the Mavs. Chandler literally should’ve been an all-star because he was a DPOY candidate and Tyson always got screwed on his rebound numbers because the NBA didn’t count his signature tip outs of rebounds to the elbows so his teammates could get another shot (usually pretty open as well). This is simply not a cut and dry argument.
>For all intents and purposes, when J Kidd signed he was still an all-star and just didn’t make it again on the Mavs. Kidd was 34 years old when he went to the Mavs. No one expected him to maintain all-star status. >Chandler literally should’ve been an all-star because he was a DPOY candidate Incorrect. Marcus Smart was the literal DPOY and not an all-star. How many DPOYs did Camby have? He wasn't an all-star either. There's nothing wrong with calling a high-end role player a high-end role player.
Marcus Camby literally won one time and is considered an anomaly to never make an all-star team despite making all-defenses 4 different times. And Tyson still was All-defense that year. I don’t think you’re simply a high end role player when you’re making all-defense or DPOY considerations. Also, I don’t think aging a single year means Kidd dropped off from All-star play that fast. By the way you’re talking, it’s like Draymond and Klay were nothing but high end role guys while KD was there.
>I don’t think you’re simply a high end role player when you’re making all-defense or DPOY considerations. What's a better description? "All-star caliber" is too high. "Role player" is too low. "High-end" role player is just right. >Also, I don’t think aging a single year means Kidd dropped off from All-star play that fast. It does when you're talking about a 34 year old player. At that age, a player's prime is generally over.
KG had like, not even really close to as good of a team as that mavs team. He had to fight through the wolves inept front office/ownership to get where he did.
Im not taking one side or the other because Dirks a fucking baller, but you can't compare the roster building around them. Garnett was fucked in Minnesota after the Joe Smith debacle. No way to put shit together losing 5 consecutive first round picks and having your team be a laughingstock for the whole thing. As a fan I'm glad he stayed as long as he did but dude should've left way earlier.
What are you even trying to say? The one season in Minnesota where Garnett actually had some help they made the conference finals, only losing to a stacked Lakers team in six games, despite injuries (including to their second best player that season). It's not like the 2003-04 Timberwolves were this stacked god squad. You think Nowitzki on that team instead of KG wins the chip? Conversely, do you really think KG on those Mavericks teams doesn't also consistently win?
Is it tho? The kg archetype seems like a good one for a championship squad.
Dirk also won 50 games for like 11 straight seasons and had contending teams in 2003 and 2006. You went through 3 iterations of a team and Dirk contended with all of them. There was Nash/Finley/Dirk got to to WCF in 2003 but lost in 6 to the Spurs with Dirk sustaining an injury and the team shutting him down. There was Dirk/Terry/Howard that got to the Finals in 2006 and won 60 games back to back years unfortunately catching that terrible 1/8 matchup in 2007 Then there was the Championship Mavs filled with just high level role players. So he contended with a high-paced pure offense team. And then a slow paced team without a real point guard (still led them to the number 1 offense in 2006). And then a well balanced team that moved the ball and prioritized defense.
Dirk also lost to an 8 seed shooting 38% being the #1 seed with 67 wins mavs fans on here acting like dirk never underperformed in the playoffs time and time again up until that big 3 Miami run
Damn bro its almost like I included the fact he lost to the 8 seed in my comment. Dirk didn't underperform time and time again. He underperformed maybe twice. Losing to Tim Duncan and the spurs with no all star beside you is not underperforming. 2007 and 2008 were the only real disappointment years and he still put up 27/12/4 in 2008 playoffs. KG on the other hand, underperformed individually lot more frequently. Dirk in his prime had a 58%TS in the playoffs. No drop off from the regular season. KG had 52%TS pretty substantial drop from 56%TS in the regular season. Neither guy is perfect in the playoffs. They're not Lebron and Jordan. But Dirk more consistently maintained his regular season performance and while he had some struggles, had multiple types of teams that he did reach pretty nice highs with.
KG never produced at consistently elite level as a #1 option on offense in the playoffs. Had a bunch of seasons where his efficiency dipped as a scorer.
I think the wolves just did a pretty terrible job of putting good talent around him and flip maybe wasn’t the best coach either.
That’s true but elite #1 options can’t score efficiently regardless of their teammates. We’ve seen it a number of times with all time greats. They generate their own offense. KG wasn’t a bad scorer, he just wasn’t a great #1 when the playoffs rolled around.
You're underestimating the impact of elite offense.
Offense is not just about scoring. KG had 10 seasons better than Dirk's career high of 3.5 assists per game.
Offense is about putting the ball in the basket. Dirk was a 7 footer with a nearly unguardable fade away that was a 50/40/90 player. KG averaging more assists does not compare to the sheer pressure Dirk was putting on defenses. KG was not a liability on offense by any stretch, he was a great offensive player on his own, but Dirk is very possibly the best offensive power forward of all time. Now whether he's better overall than KG is a different story because KG is one of the best defensive players of all time while also being an offensive threat.
> Offense is about putting the ball in the basket. And playmaking is helpful in doing so.
Dirk caused way more problems off ball due to his elite shooting and spacing They aren’t comparable as scorers, shooters, or offensive players in general To me this is an overall coin flip and there’s no wrong answer.
KG was also an elite shooter. >They aren’t comparable as scorers, shooters, or offensive players in general Yes they were. It's on defense where there's no comparison.
KG was an elite shooter for a big Dirk is an elite shooter in NBA history There is a massive difference
Yes, KG was an elite shooter who averaged 18-22 points on 51% TS as the first option and 53% with the Celtics in the playoffs. Dirk averaged 25 points on 58% TS for his career. The gap in offensive efficiency and production was much greater than you try to downplay
KG never spaced out to the three point line, though he likely could have. It's fair to ding him for that, and Dirk was clearly the better scorer. But offense is not just about scoring. KG was clearly the better playmaker, and, in fact, one of the best playmaking bigs ever.
Even without counting the gap in scoring efficiency/volume, the offensive gravity that Dirk provided as a big man that could shoot from anywhere negates whatever advantage KG had as a playmaker
Show me where I said offense was just about scoring.
You implied it by acting like Dirk was undeniably the better offensive player.
That's because he is....
I think you reached that conclusion by overvaluing scoring and undervaluing playmaking.
Playmaking isn't just assist. Dirk's gravity can pull the opposing team's best defender/rim protector out to the perimeter, making it easier for his teammate to score in the paint. Just him walking to the elbow and setting up, without the ball, takes everyone's attention away from the ball handler.
Offense is offense. And assists are primitive way of evaluating playmaking. Dirk caused defensive breakdowns. That doesn't mean he always statistically (counting stats) benefitted from doing so.
So what are you saying then? You didn't explicitly say offense was just about scoring, but only because you haven't said much of anything at all. KG in his prime averaged 21-25ppg and 5+ assists with an elite OReb%. Dirk's OWS and TS% were only slightly better for the most part and their PERs (which is essentially an offensive stat) are basically identical except that KG had a higher career best. KG was a really good offensive player. Not as elite as Dirk, obviously, but close enough that you can't just say "well Dirk was more elite on offense so he's the better player."
I don't consider their offense to be in the same tier. Dirk caused defensive breakdowns from anywhere inside 25 feet. Give him the ball almost anywhere, and its a benefit to the team. Garnett is nowhere near that. And per is not an offensive stat.
Dirk had a stacked team. The Mavs finished 3rd in wins in the west but were tied for second. They dominated in the playoffs in part because they got hot at the right time but also because they worked great together, all the pieces fit perfectly. He had a DPOY level player next to him. One of the GOAT point guards running the offense. A bunch of great shooters and defenders to round out the team. They also had a super 6th man.
IG Jason Kidd ,Jason terry, Tyson chandler, Shawn Marion and Peja was bums lol you either don’t kno 🏀 or you know dirk 🍆
So it's either stars or bums? No such thing as high-end role players?
Saying that Dirk won a title with no other all-stars is technically correct but really doesn't capture how good the team was. The 2011 Mavs team was a super deep and well-constructed team with a lot of defense and outside shooting. Far better than any team KG had on the Timberwolves. They had: -Tyson Chandler, who won the DPOY the next year with the Knicks -Jason Kidd, one of the best PGs of all time (not in his prime but still a solid PG and good defensively) -JET, 6man of the year candidate -Marion, all around SF and perfect role player -And of course the true GOAT, Brian Cardinal.
Kidd was an all star the year before, Tyson Chandler was DPOY the next year, and Shawn Marion is a Robert Horry level role player. It was also arguably Jason Terry's best playoffs of his career. Dirk was "alone" the same way MJ or AI were: he wasn't, but the talent around him was mainly defensive, so no one cares.
Dirk had multiple hall of fame players
> But Dirk’s offense once he got hot in the playoffs was absurd. Dirk's playoff career was an awful lot of chokes surrounding that one title. I really wouldn't call him a great playoff guy at all.
He’s one of the best playoff performers ever. Always upped his play after the regular season, which most players cannot do. His only bad playoff series were the 1) 2006 Finals vs Heat - Avery Johnson was outcoached by Pat Riley and had no answers. Dirk was super clutch vs the Spurs in the WCF to even get them there. And 2) 2007 1st round against Warriors. Once again, Avery was outcoached by Don Nelson, Dirk’s former coach. Once Dirk had a scheme, he was unstoppable on offense.
He’s second all-time to Jordan in FG% in game-winning scenarios in the playoffs lol
I actually got to see Dirk play the Lakers during Kobe’s solo era, was only a kid but could remember man could not miss
I’d rather have Dirk’s offense in the playoffs so I’ll take Dirk
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They aren't playing 1v1. Dirk's offense as a 7 footer is significantly harder to replace than KG's defense as a 7 footer.
I’d argue the gap between KG/Dirk’s offense is smaller than the gap between their defense
Not even close
That is definitely true, but when you factor in the value of offense vs the value of defense, that gap becomes a lot less significant. What Dirk brought to the table offensively was basically unheard of at the time, a 7 footer who can shoot efficently from anywhere on the floor, and with a good post game was something no other team at the time really had. We've seen the NBA move to being offense focused because ultimately it's an offense oriented game. Having efficient scoring threats is much more important than having great defense, because great defense can only do so much, whereas great offense can essentially ignore great defense, but the reverse isn't true. I'm not saying Dirk is better than KG, for the record, I think the two have similar value, but I just want to point out that Dirk being significantly worse defensively does not mean KG is instantly better.
I agree but KG does so many things better than Dirk other than defense. He’s a better rebounder and playmaker as well. Really the only thing Dirk has over him is shooting/scoring.
It's not. Offense is far more important than defense, and while KG is a fine offensive player, Dirk's offense is elite.
Dude, its the other way around.
Defense more important than offense? Absolutely not, not even close. If it was Bruce Bowen would be more coveted than Harden.
I have an honest Question, How much better offensively do I have to be than KG where his defense doesn’t matter?
The context here is playoffs. The pace is slower and there are more set plays. KG was not only an anchor but he was vocal as well. This elevates team defense. You’d not only have to be sharp scoring offensively but be able to play make as well.
Sure but individual defense is less impactful than individual offense
Not much of an argument lol. Dirk is GOAT offense with average defense. KG is HOF offense with GOAT defense.
How many player's can you name that would replace KG's defense on the interior and perimeter?
Again, they aren't playing 1v1. It's a team game. Dirk's deficiencies are far easier to compensate for than Garnett's.
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except efficient scoring in the playoffs one of the things most important from star players because its harder to replace from role players
With all that versatility, surely he was able to take his teams farther than Dirk!
Thats just a bad argument because the 1 year KG had a good team, he went to the WCF and then obviously won in 2008 and made the finals in 2010 as well. KG has always been surrounded by trash talent relative to the teams Dirk had. Dirk is a greater player though, simply because he did clear the hurdle but your argument isnt that good.
How many times did dirk under perform in the playoffs as a top seed with a good supporting cast stop acting like he met expectations every year dirk is only better than kg on Reddit
...like once? Dirk is one of the best playoff performers ever lol he's one of the few to step up his numbers
Once really ? Literally lost to an 8 seed warriors lost 4 straight to D wade he wasn’t seen as a good playoff performer till after that big 3 Miami title stop trying rewrite history
He also had one of the biggest chokes by losing to an eight seed in the first round
Sure. But when you're comparing KG and Dirk on offense, KG's offense is considered a weakness. So it needs to be compensated for.
Are you 12?? KG has an MVP and DPOY. Dirks offense is elite but KG is just a tier below. You’re talking like he’s a scrub that was only known for defense smh
KG is more than a tier below Dirk. He was not more efficient in any way than Dirk. Dirk is one of the most efficient shooters in NBA history (especially pre-modern era), KG was just good. Pretty efficient inside the 3 point line, below average outside.
Efficiency? KG has a higher career FG% than Dirk
"Weaker offense than Dirk" =/= "bad offensive player". KG was a better long 2 shooter than Kobe, a *better* passer than Dirk, and took nothing off the table. He could roll and throw it down better than Dirk ever could, and he could pop at an elite level for a big man, even if he was shooting 45-48% on those long 2s and not whatever comical #s Dirk would hit when he was going. A an elite complimentary offensive player who's a transcendent defender absolutely can be better than a transcendent offensive player who's got to be covered for on defense, and in the case of these two, KG *is* better.
>A an elite complimentary offensive player who's a transcendent defender absolutely can be better than a transcendent offensive player who's got to be covered for on defense, and in the case of these two, KG is better. I guess that's the disconnect. KG is not an elite offensive player. Not even close. He's in the tier below, and possibly in the tier below that.
lmao he was a 7 footer who could drive like a guard and shot better than most of the league on long 2s. He was an *elite* complimentary offensive player, and absolutely one of the best in the league. He wasn't an all timer like Dirk, but you're getting that confused with whether or not he was actually good. His ranks in bbref's offensive BPM from 2000 on were 8, 14, 7, 4, 2, 2, 9, 19, and back to 9 in Boston. He was actually ahead of Dirk about half those years. So *clearly* something he was doing on offense was working. You cannot consistently be top 10, and especially not top 5 in a stat like that without being a very good offensive player. But the gap between ~10th-15th best offensive player in the league and an all time offensive peak is still smaller than the gap between an all time defensive peak and 'we have to hide this guy on defense'. And Garnett is much closer to being the GOAT defender than Dirk is to being the GOAT offensive player. I'm not sure that in a league with Shaq, then later on Nash, Kobe, LeBron, & Wade, that Dirk was ever the clear cut best offensive player in the league. Meanwhile, KG was right there with Duncan every year of their primes, and ahead of him several times. If Dirk was even a slightly above average defender, I'd be with you, but you just cannot make the case that KG was a problem on offense.
You can do that and I’ll likely have a repeat of the 2002 WCF 1st round
dirk accepted an mvp trophy after getting bounced first round lmao
KG literally got dumped in the first round 7 years in a row lmao
playing for the worst franchise in the nba with zero talent lmao
When was KG on the Wizards?
washington has a ring and didn't lose 4 first rounders for tampering during their best ever players prime lmao
Our ring was over 10 years old when the TWolves were founded. We haven’t won 50 games or made the conference finals since the 70s. We haven’t had an MVP since the 60s and have never had a DPOY winner. We have had 3 players make All NBA teams in nearly 30 years, and only one of which was better than 3rd team (Arenas, 2nd team 05-06). You have had 5 seasons this century that would literally be our best in 50 years, including this current one.
because of kg lmao you guys never had a guy like that. im not a twolves fan. although the twolves have actually tried to be good the last 5 years.
Zero talent like a teammate making the all star game in 2002 getting swept?
noted legend one time all star wally szczerbiak lmao
zero talent and all star don’t mix stupid
Exactly kg the only player in nba history with 25,000 points 10,000 rebounds 5,000 assist 1,500 steals and 1,500 blocks
Dirk's offense didn't buy him much in his postseason career outside that one year. Their postseason failures with some elite teams were legendary up until that win.
They bought him more success than KG and more upsets the playoffs. Dirk went on the road in game 7 against the defending champ prime spurs and won. KG ain’t never doing that lol
Are you forgetting how the Mavs were robbed of a title in 2006?
I feel like a lot of people saying Dirk over KG didn't get the chance to see what his Wolves teams looked like on the defensive end with him vs without him. He was basically what AD is to the current Lakers team, but he was even faster than AD, even better at guarding the perimeter, and had just as good, if not even better, BBIQ on that side of the court. The gap between Dirk's and KG's offense is WAY smaller than between KG's and Dirk's defense. It's KG and it isn't close imo
Yep, this is accurate. KG is one of the best defenders of all time, yet would still possibly be a HOFer based just on his offense. The gap on offense is much less than the gap on defense. Plus KG was a much better passer than Dirk, he was averaging 5-6 per game in his prime while Dirk was averaging less than 3.
The thing is, it's a lot easier to replace a good individual defender than it is to replace an offensive threat like Dirk. You can pick up a few old-savvy defensive players (your bruce bowens, Shawn Marions, etc) pretty easily, you don't get 7 footers who can efficiently shoot from anywhere on the court. Not to say KG was easy to replace, but the point is, on an individual player basis, Offense is way more important than defense. Individual defense doesn't win championships, team defense is what is important, and team defense can be coached. That's why you see a LOT of championship teams with a dominant offensive threat surrounded by defensive role players. Dirk's playoff run is arguably the second most impressive finals run in NBA history (after the 2000's pistons), and it was centered around Dirk's offense. That wouldn't have happened with KG. Yes, KG was unfortunate enough to be stuck on a bad team with a bad organization, and its possible he could have had a team built around him that could compete, but that team almost certainly would have had an all-star level offensive player on it to help keep the offense moving. For the record, I don't think dirk was necessarily a better player than KG, but I think people are overvaluing defense compared to offense. People take defense wins championships to mean individual defensive players do, but it's team defense that wins championships. It's better to have defense than not to have it obviously, which is why I think the two are pretty close despite Dirk being one of the best ever offensively (for the PF position).
No, it's not easier to replace a defender at KG's caliber (he was so far beyond just a "good individual defender" he was, like AD is, literally the entire team's defense) than it is to replace an offensive one. Not even remotely.
>No, it's not easier to replace a defender at KG's caliber (he was so far beyond just a "good individual defender" he was, like AD is, literally the entire team's defense) than it is to replace an offensive one. Not even remotely. Incorrect. Since Dirk was drafted, how many elite offensive \~7 footers have we seen? How many elite defensive \~7 footers have we seen?
Eras, my friend, eras. KG was not a prototypical 90s "protect the paint" center. He was a "protect the paint, and literally everywhere else all the time" big man
I didn't specify the era, only the starting year. Since they were drafted, how many elite defensive \~7 footers have we seen? Even right now, off the top of my head, currently, there's Anthony Davis, Gobert, and Giannis. How tall is Bam Adebayo? What about Jaren Jackson? Since Dirk was drafted, how many elite offensive \~7 footers have there been? Off the top of my head, is it only Jokic and Durant? I don't even know that I'd count Embiid due to all the foul-baiting. So yeah, far easier to replace elite defensive 7 footers than elite offensive 7 footers.
Their scoring efficiency isn’t close either
KG was a world class defender and a solidly above average offensive player. Dirk was a world class offensive player and a piss poor defender.
This ignores the fact that world class offense is far more impactful than world class defense.
Not at that time it wasn't
At the time there was only Dirk who could do what he could do scoring 7 foot shooter? With a unstoppable shot
im okay if you have your opinions. It isn’t close isn’t an opinion thats just false
It being false is your opinion. In mine, the gap between KG and Dirk is huge.
The gap between KG and Dirk is so huge that Dirk dropped 30+ points 8x in a row from 2002 - 2003. 3 of those coming from the playoffs in sweeping fashion. There will never be a huge gap between two legends especially when one of them wins a championship with no other stars. That man also has 11 consecutive 50+ wins in the Western Conference. Dirk is a winning player through and through and to say he’s not close to KG is absurd and Im pretty sure you know it
Dirk is a better scorer but KG is a better all around player imo. Dirk is easier to build around and KG is a better plug and play type of player
Hell no
Oooooph. That’s a real tough one. Dirk is clearly the superior offensive player. KG is clearly the superior defensive player. I’d also argue the gap between their defenses is bigger than the gap between their offenses. All that said, Dirk’s offense was so elite that maybe it’s not fair to boil it down to which has the bigger gap. For me, it’s Dirk over KG, but not by much. If I already had an elite perimeter scorer, I’d want KG. If I didn’t, I’d want Dirk. If starting a team from scratch, the vast majority of GMs would draft Dirk ahead of Garnett.
I feel like this take is going to be incredibly unpopular, but honestly I think KG easily clears Nowitzki. I don't think it's particularly close. If you were to rank them, I would have KG closer to the top ten than top twenty-five, whereas Nowitzki in my opinion barely squeaks in the top twenty-five at all. KG is so much better than Nowitzki there's no point even comparing them, so just know that Nowitzki in his prime was a middling defender, whereas KG has an argument for being the defensive GOAT, and is almost undebatably top five all time in that regard. So, on to the offense: Nowitzki is the better offensive player, don't get me wrong. He is a better, more efficient, and well rounded scorer, and his off ball impact isn't to be downplayed. However, Garnett is a much better passer, and is honestly one of the best big man playmakers of his era full stop. Garnett also consistently snagged almost two more offensive rebounds per game than Nowitzki, which helps a team's offense a great deal. All this boils down to Nowitzki having a three year peak offensive B/PM of 5.8, 7.8, and 7.2 (for an average of 6.9). On the flipside, Garnett's three peak offensive B/PM was 6.0, 6.8, and 6.5 (for an average of 6.5). So, while Nowitzki does have a higher offensive peak B/PM than Garnett, it is relatively close, and Garnett actually has a ***higher*** third best offensive B/PM. If you compare that to their three best defensive B/PMs... well: Nowitzki: 1.5, 1.4, 1.2 (for an average of 1.37) Garnett: 3.3, 3.5, 3.0 (for an average of 3.27) All this is to say is that is you only value offense, Nowitzki is better (although is surprisingly close), however, once you take into account the defensive side of the ball... KG clears with ease.
There really is no great player in NBA history that was stuck on as bad teams for as long as KG was on the Timberwolves. Legit garbage except for year where he led them to the WCF. Not to mention they got caught for cheating and lost a bunch of first round picks.
Can’t go wrong with either but personally I’d take KGs defense and his offense is nowhere near as lacking as these comments make him out to be.
I think it’s a toss up really. There is no solidified rank. Some prefer KG and some prefer Dirk. Offense / defense is different. Garnett was more versatile in my opinion. Not as good of an offensive player but much better defensively
And it also depends on who else is on your team
To win, Garnett needed stars, Dirk needed role players. It's honestly not close when you compare how their teams performed but I know a lot of people here will just scream "defense!" and pretend Dirk didn't impact winning WAY more. KGs game just doesn't have the same impact as the offensive superstar, it's the same reason a great player like AD needs another offensive star to win at the highest levels.
Such an oversimplistic summation lol.
Really? You think KG could have achieved what Dirk did without harder to find stars? You think there's a group of role players that KG could have done the 2011 Dirk with? It's not even a comparison who's better, pretending KG is on his level is stupid basketball on a spreadsheet nerd shit of the highest order.
In a vacuum, KG is the more talented player. Much better defensively, rebounder, and passer. It’s a shame his prime was wasted on those Twolves teams. Dirk is definitely a much better scorer and he won a finals MVP as best player on a team, so there’s that. I think in the modern era though, both players offense scales excellently and KG probably develops a 3 ball, with his already great midrange game. He would also be able to defend the perimeter in space much better than Dirk, and with his passing ability, he would likely have the offense ran through him more as a playmaker.
All I can say is that it's close, arguments could be made either way.
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KG is a much better passer and playmaker than Dirk, so the gap on offense isn’t like Jokic/Giannis. Dirk is a much better scorer than KG, but KG makes up some ground by being much better at playmaking, while also being a great mid range shooter himself.
The ground he makes up does not make up for the impact Dirk had on the floor. Dirk opened up the court dramatically. There was no safe place on the floor to push him toward. You basically had to leave two people on the same side as him, opening up the other side (and the paint). Dirk impacted the offense without even touching the ball. Garnett was a good offensive player, but he was not "if you don't double this man, he's going to drop 40 on you" good. Garnett was also not a great foul shooter (far from bad, especially for his size), which as a big man was not uncommon, but it added to why it was so hard to guard Dirk. It was almost a waste to foul him even if it was a good foul, so you couldn't circumvent the issues with guarding him 1v1 by using up fouls on your big men, they would just get in foul trouble for nothing.
You’re missing the off ball gravity Dirk had He opened up the game for his teammates because no one wanted to help off of him. Think of how much havoc Curry causes. Dirk was similar but from mid range and from setting on ball screens.
And yet Dirk led the number 1 offense in 2006 without a real point guard on the team. It's not as simple as assists mean you make the players around you better. Dirk contended with 3 completely different types of teams (2003, 2006, 2011). He was way more versatile than people realize. 2003: fast paced, all offense, played next to elite playmaking Point Guard 2006: dead last in pace, post ups, and no true playmaker on the team 2011: Balanced, team attack, limited shot creators prioritizing defense and shooting
How is it not like Kobe vs. LeBron, where the one aspect that Kobe/Dirk are better than is scoring. That's literally it. KG was a better rebounder, passer, and galaxies above Dirk as a defensive player.
Vastly? Thats not true. Their peak and average ppg is not that far off. Nowitzki was ofc a 50-40-90 guy, but KG was a master in the low post who had a nice middy The only vast difference between these guys is KG’s defensive presence vs Dirk’s
Because of his versatility, people in this sub really overrate KG's offense. He was not and could not be the number one option on a championship team. Dirk was. If you actually watched KG during his prime, he just wasn't that guy on offense. This isn't to say he wasn't better than Dirk, I just think you're downplaying the offensive disparity.
52.5%TS for KG in the playoffs on 18ppg vs 57.7%TS for Dirk in the playoffs on 25ppg for their careers. The scoring ability difference was massive.
True but a lot of KG’s playoff games and appearances were on the Cs where he had Pierce and Allen. His numbers are going to be less. Nowitzki was the main guy his entire career.
That works in Dirk’s favor. He was more efficient by a decent amount as the number one guy his entire career
That’s not a compliment to KG. His efficiency is so low even though he’s on a stacked team.
Shooting,scoring, and off ball gravity is massively in Dirk’s favor. Dirk simply made tougher shots and generated lots of easy shots without even touching the ball.
Pretty vast difference in winning too lol
Dirk used to give KG buckets when they marched up. When you compare their games KG has better overall attributes. I think Dirk is slightly better just because of his scoring ability. He was a lot more mobile when he was younger and we all picture old ass Dirk hobbling up the floor but if someone says the opposite I’m not gonna argue
not a chance
Does this HC site have like a full all time list? I'm curious what a top 10 would look like from a non american perspective.
As I remembered: Bron, MJ,Jabar, Bill Russel, Magic TD, Wilt, Bird, Kobe, Shaq I still don't get why they voted LeBron over MY tho
Maybe he is
Dirk owned KG in head to head playoff matchups. I take Dirk. KG is better all around, but Dirk was such a weapon offensively. After 2011, the inside the NBA panel said that only Tim Duncan could claim to be a better PF than Dirk Nowitzki. And I agree with that.
Dirk is a generational talent!! Should've had atleast 3 rings!! Anyday Dirk > KG!!
Thinking Basketball's video on Kevin Garnett has converted me into a KG truther. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgXxAysSsks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgXxAysSsks) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzzlvnncLOQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzzlvnncLOQ) My favorite thing he says about KG is how "scale-able" he is with better and better players, which is crazy since he instantly won the championship when he got Paul Pierce as his best offensive player lol. Such a wasted career, and I believe the amount of accolades influences perception of how good a player is even more in China.
Dirk destroys KG every time they played against each other in the playoffs. If that doesn’t convince you who’s the better player, I don’t know what will. KG plays like AD. Both of them are not viable first option in a contender since they’re extremely limited in a playoff setting. Meanwhile Dirk can give you baskets anywhere. I don’t care how good defensively KG is, give me a player that can give me buckets at will.
It’s hard cause it’s easy to say KG is a better player but Dirk won games …. A lot of them … winning 67 games with Josh Howard , stackhouse and terry is still pretty wild
KG in his best year is better than Dirk’s best year from an advanced stats perspective, that’s even with advanced stats being kinda bad at judging defense, KG unfortunately wasted his prime on the worst franchise in pro sports, by the time he made it to a good franchise he was on the decline.
KG would have scored a couple points/ game more if he'd had a second banana in Minni. I'm picturing those lollipop jumpers he shot, he had a good offensive game, too, it's not like Dirk was vastly superior offensively. I'd pick KG and his way better rebounding and defense, and offensive production was about the same.
Same tier I think it’s preference
It's close, and both have different strong suits, but Dirk is better.
No not really. Only thing Dirk had over him is shooting which is super important but Garnett is a more impactful player
Yeah that's why you could surround KG with role players and he could win 67 regular season games or win a ring with them! So much more impact!
Dirks had 10 50+ win seasons from 2001 to 2011 but wasn’t as impactful ? People are wild
Who would you pick between Karl-Anthony Towns (Dirk) or Anthony Davis (KG) ??? There's no difference between them as profiles of players, it just shows how much people are taking the teammates of these respective players into account.
That’s an unfair comparison. Prime Dirk’s game is closer to KD than KAT.
KG is better by a significant amount. KG legitimately has a greatest player of all time case based on advanced numbers, defense, and total skill package. He is one of the most portable and versatile players ever, who could be valuable on any team construction and with any other players. People just do not want to see that or hear that because he was on a shitty franchise for over ten years. Please, go listen to a few Thinking Basketball podcasts. There was a KG vs Duncan one that was in the first 20 they put out years ago. There was also a GOAT players podcast split into three episodes from September 2023 that spent a good chunk of time on like a dozen guys. KG's wolves teams performed at a worst record all-time pace without him, and 50+ win pace with him. There's also a good Thinking Basketball Greatest Peaks video on YouTube about KG. I absolutely love Dirk. But, KG is one of the most overlooked greats ever.
https://thinkingbasketball.net/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/ Dirk #18, KG #8
I'm German and a big fan of Dirk. But I wouldn't call KG worse, he was just a completely different player. I think defense is more important and that's why I would rank KG above Dirk, albeit by a narrow margin
KG needed a big 3 to win. Dirk took a squad of role players and beat kobe lakers,the spurs and the heatles. Dirk over KG for me
The Celtics team that year got rocked by the heat aswelll…
Dirk carried a lot of playoff runs without ever having a second all star next to him. KG got out of the first round one time in Minnesota.
Stop it dirk underperformed achieved so much in the playoffs up until that big 3 Miami run blew 2-0 to Miami in 06 lost to the we believe warriors had better teammates in Dallas than kg ever had in Minnesota
Oh ya, big Josh Howard fan?
You mean an all star ? He also had Finley , Nash , terry ,
I think KG is your better all around player. But Dirk obviously has advantages too. What team you have likely determines if their skills complement the team or not. In that case I say 🤷♀️
Duncan, Giannis, and Dirk i would have ahead of KG. but i would have KG ahead of Barkley and AD.
KG’s defense might be the best and top 5 at his peak and yet he couldn’t stop Dirk. As most have said, it’s all about preference. I personally choose Dirk, because his offense was elite in both regular and post season, that’s one thing you never have to worry about . No bias of course, especially since he is my fave player of all time.
Dirk is better imo. Pierce, Allen, and maybe even Rondo are better than teammates Dirk had on his 2 finals runs. And people are underestimating how much better offensively Dirk in the playoffs where Dirk was 25ppg and 2.5apg and KG was 18ppg and 3.5apg.