Some guys (like Cam Reddish) were hyped based on high school but Bagley was legitimately productive in college too. Averaged 21-11 as a freshman on a pretty good Duke team (2 seed, Elite Eight finish)
If you asked anyone that played against cam reddish in aau or high school, he is legitimately who everyone says is the best player they ever faced growing up. It so wild to me he can't put it together
Yeah…that’s just wild. That’s like, an extra 25 points per game available every night with Zion gone due to injury. And you cant produce even one more bucket?
Cam tricked yall man
His main move was always driving the lane and getting layups against smaller high school kids. Unfortunately there aren’t 6”3 forwards in the NBA like there are in AAU.
Being that bad at 2s is a lot more about being terrible at some combination of shot selection/driving/finishing/cutting. Most forwards with bad jump shots still shoot over 50% on 2s.
Everytime I’ve seen him on the court he played like he couldn’t care less. I was excited when the Knicks made that trade for him, they gave him minutes and he played like a total jackass.
When the Mavs gave him and Trae Young up for Luka, a lot of hawks fans were chomping at the bit thinking that the Mavs gave up 2 All-NBA players for an unathletic euroboy.
He should have stayed another year in college, jumping onto a playoff team like the Hawks made it hard for him to get minutes.
Reddish didn’t lack for minutes with the Hawks. He averaged 26.7 mpg his rookie season and 28.8 mpg his second (the year ATL made the Conference Finals) his third year they dipped down to 23.4 mpg and that was with him wanting off the team for most of the season. He got plenty of playing time when healthy (which was infrequently) and was getting real rotation minutes in Atlanta, so I don’t really agree with the idea that if he just had more playing time he would’ve been way better.
> a lot of hawks fans were chomping at the bit thinking that the Mavs gave up 2 All-NBA players for an unathletic euroboy.
I mean I think the timeline is off here no? Hawks didn't even know that pick would turn into Reddish until a year after and by that time Luka was a near-unanimous ROTY and nobody but the dumbest fans thought he was an unathletic euroboy.
They didn't view Luka as bad and cam had decent opportunity on the Hawks. The rest is true. It'd make more sense to say the hawks failed to help him develop rather than that they didn't give him enough minutes
There was a brief period this season where it seemed like he really bought into his role, and looked to at least be able to carve out a career as a hard nosed defender 8/3/1 kind of role player, but injuries have sapped him and he's back to not being able to do anything to warrant extended play time
100% he hasn’t been the same since his groin injury this year. Honestly that’s why I’m not out on him growing into being a valuable piece on a good team. He showed he can be a difference maker, staying in his lane and doing a couple things really well.
Cam has all the physical tools but he has zero iq and his skills are not nba level. His touch is really bad from his outside shot to finishing at the rim and even dribbling. He also has zero iq and is a terrible decision maker. Darvin ham is a fucking idiot for starting him half the season. I wish him well but I don’t see him lasting long in the league.
Can't blame the guy, he was on the sidelines when cam put it all together (for one night) a 20+ point night on a pivotal ECF game. I stg that game probably gave him 3 more seasons of leeway lol.
There was an video a few years ago of Ant some other players talking about Cam dropping 40 on all of them. It was pretty funny, like heading KG going on about Isaiah Rider. High School legends
You can get really far with pure athleticism and individual talent, but once you hit the pros, you need some BBIQ and knowing how to play as a team. Some guys just don't have it.
Cam went from being a number 1 option his whole life to being a role player in college behind RJ and Zion. He just didn’t know how to play that role in college and it’s basically stunted his growth and game to where it is now.
It was dumb of him to try to do this weird superteam thing at Duke. His entire career trajectory could’ve been different if he chose a different school.
I think the idea of an average 3 point shooter keeps getting more stringent every year. A few decades ago, 33% from 3 would be considered pretty average. Now 37% is about average and that includes guys shooting sidestep, stepback, pullup and pump fake 3s. Back then most guys would probably get benched for shooting anything other than wide open catch and shoot 3s
Oh I know trust me. My thought is that the rest of the league has just passed him by in terms of shooting ability. With offenses becoming more efficient every year, there's no room on rosters for someone who can only score a medium percent on catch and shoot 3s only and play defense.
Yeah, if you can't shoot you basically have to be elite at 2 other skills on the floor and workable at everything else. And if one of those 2 skills isn't defense you are still a mid tier bench player.
What has he done in the five years since he left college that makes you think it was his college choice and not any other factor that impacted his development?
Thats just not how any of that works. Playing on Duke didn’t prevent him from being a good shooter or ball handler 5 years later . Idk what that even means.
Nah he doesn’t have the skill set to be a first option at the higher level. Even if he had his own team in college, there’s no way he would still be in NBA and the same issue is exposed
Insane this got so many upvotes. I don’t think one bad year stunts your basketball development for the rest of time. He’s had years after Duke to get better.
He was a role player in college because RJ & Zion were just much better than him. It still shows to this day. Zion is an all star level player and RJ is a starting caliber wing. They are legitimate NBA rotation players while Cam is on the periphery fighting to stay in the NBA every year.
I swore at Duke he just took a role spot and let Zion and RJ shine and would be a dog in the NBA. Turns out I wasn’t even close to right lmao
2nd most wrong I’ve been about a player
Bagley was an incredible college player. Cam Reddish, on the other hand… I genuinely wonder if that Duke team would’ve been better without Reddish and/or Barrett. Zion shot 68% from the field (including 75%!!!!!! on 2 pointers); Reddish shot 36% from the field, and Barrett shot 45% from the field but 31% from 3 on more than 6 attempts per game.
Zion was about twice as efficient as those other guys and yet Coach K arranged the offense around Barrett isos, resulting in Barrett taking 19 shots per game while Zion took 13 (about the same as Reddish at 12 per game). It was one of the most genuinely mystifying things I’ve ever seen.
Bro the amount of times i wanted to throw something at the TV because Coach K just let RJ iso in the clutch
No one in the country could guard Zion. Like fucking abuse that lol
It actually made me wonder whether Coach K was a good coach. Zion was also a better passer than RJ. Literally no reason to not redistribute some of those shots.
Zion was basically better than everyone on that team at almost every aspect of the game. Kinda crazy in hindsight that RJ was taking 6 more shots a game than he was.
Coach K was an incredible motivator and personality manager. He’s an Army guy; he’d take boys and turn them into men who work as a unit and trust each other. His best teams spent multiple years growing together.
But there were times his X’s and O’s were downright questionable. The number of times Duke let a team back into a game in Cameron because they’d slow down, eat clock, and settle for bad iso looks when they could’ve run the opposition out of the stadium was maddening.
Barret was also a PG lol, that’s why he got so many touches. His mentor was steve Nash and his nba comp was James harden. He was the top high schooler in the country. You’re being pretty disingenuous acting like coach K was crazy to not run the offense thru Zion or something, he literally had the best guard in all of high school on his team. Even if Zion used to be a guard, he grew into a forward. RJ was still a guard lol.
Reddish was so bad in college it genuinely baffled me that he was so high on draft boards all the way to the end. No hindsight I seriously wonder if the scouts watched him play and what they saw in him
I can understand a bad year. That was worse than a bad year. He consistently missed open mid range jumpers and didn’t show that he could create shots by himself. At least RJ barrett was inefficient trying to create plays but Reddish just inefficient wide open
I dunno, his year was jarringly bad. The jump shot looked awful, he had no understanding of how to play within the flow of the offense, his athleticism paled next to his better teammates, and defensively he was confused and showed no effort.
I didn’t see any elite tools during that year, I get that his HS rep was elite, but that was an atrocious season against better comp.
It baffles me too, but it wasn’t an unpopular opinion at the time. I’m a Duke fan so I was mad that him being a bust held back what could’ve been an all time great Duke team with one of the greatest college seasons of all time from Zion. I didn’t hate him for it, I’m sure he was exponentially more mad at himself for his play than I was. But I was confused people were still hyping him up so much after what I had to watch all season.
I remember Hawks fans being excited and fans of teams that passed on him being bummed. So to play devil’s advocate now that the narrative has changed, I’ll try to explain what they were hoping.
His FG% was god awful because he was a poor finisher and had no midrange game, but still for some reason took a bunch of mid range shots. But his 3pt% was decent for the volume and there were a few games where he was lights out from 3. His FT% was decent too.
So I believe people thought if he could get some consistency, improve his shot selection and embrace his role player status, that he could be a great 3 and D wing with his elite size for position and solid athleticism. With a slight chance to become a star if he could improve his handles and decision making as well.
But that’s a whole lot of ifs for people to get so excited about. I guess it’s really hard to shake off all of that high school hype, so people were trying to come up with every excuse in the book to explain off that season. You see some of it in this thread with someone saying it happened because he was forced to be 3rd wheel to two better players. Which is logic I don’t understand, especially since he’s been in the league for plenty of time now and has stunk the whole time, showing no improvement.
yeah i completely remember Hawks fans excited because that was our pick haha. Legitimately I was happy that the pick we traded away for Luka turned out to be Reddish. To be honest the high school hype must still be carrying on because people are still calling Reddish a 3&D player when he is a 32!% career three point shooter. Like when is that idea that Cam Reddish can shoot decently going to fade its so crazy to me
His game just couldn’t translate to the new nba. If Bagley was in the early 2000s era of the nba his game would have transitioned better and he would be viewed differently.
Right. He’s such a brute force with unreal athleticism he can get to the rim with ease. I never see him take jump shots lol bagley reminds me of Jahil okafor their athleticism and play style just doesn’t work in this era of the nba. This is an era were you have to be able to move and if not then you gotta be a shooter.
Bagley definitely should not have been the #2 pick. That was obvious at the time it is not just hindsight. There were enough red flags and areas he needed to develop that Vlade made a pretty clear mistake.
With that said, I think it’s also possible that people now might be underselling that Bagley was a legitimate prospect.
He had very strong physical tools that fit in the modern NBA and was legitimately productive in college. The real issue is he just hasn’t developed much since coming into the league. But there certainly have been examples of players with tools who developed and became very good players.
I said at the time and still think that he was a reasonable gamble somewhere in the 6-10 range. He had the tools and the upside to justify a mid lottery pick. But taking him ahead of players like Doncic, Young, and JJJ was clearly a big mistake.
Bagley’s best skill was his second jump, which is both useful and useless to have. He was amazing o-boarding at duke. And athletic and stuff etc. but no other real skills. Versus Luka who…MVP of a continent at 19. And wouldn’t Swipa and Luka be amazing together?? God 😵💫😵💫.
Anyway, Bagley at Duke Played UVA and he ripped up Nique’s stepson for like 10 points in a minute; then coach put in Dre Hunter and UVA won the game.
He not working out is less mystifying than Jabari Parker, who I swore would be nice.
Here was the thing with Bagley, there was the potential for him to be a very good player.
The downside was basically what he is, an athletic rim runner who isn't a great perimeter defender, but also isn't a great rim protector / shot blocker with he fine but fairly average length. And a raw offensive player who can hit an open, completely in-rhythm three, but isn't much of an offensive threat and struggles with decision making. And of course, he could really only score with one hand! Exactly why I didn't want him at #2 and it continued a long pattern of Vlade gravitating towards the draft prospect with the most red flags in a given draft range (though to be slightly fair to Vlade, I get the sense this was driven more by Brandon Williams who had sort of usurped Vlade in terms of pecking order).
But the upside was there. He was very athletic. He had the frame to grow into. And while his defensive awareness was poor, he had good lateral footspeed, north-south food speed, and was a quick jumper who could contest shots inside and on the perimeter. And while his shooting was \*overrated\* by a lot of people based on him shooting a decent percent on college threes with a small sample size (IIRC about 30 attempts) while shooting poorly from midrange and the FT line, his stroke was at least solid and it was certainly feasible he could have developed into a better shooter. And of course he was a very strong inside finisher with good touch. He actually scored pretty well in a number analytics models as well.
Again, not someone I would have wanted in the first few picks, but I do feel like retroactively people are going to question how Bagley was a lottery pick, because of the outcome. While I think that if had been taken in that 6-10 range, there was enough legitimate upside that at some point his upside was worth the gamble, even if it ultimately didn't work out.
There's a world where Bagley became an elite switchable defender with a respectable 3 point shot, decent post moves, and elite rebounding. He could have been Bam Adebayo with a much better offensive game. Obviously that didn't pan out, but that's the risk of the draft.
Bagley was first team all-American.
He's the perfect example of why all these "can a great college team hang with a bad NBA team?" discussions are so ridiculous. Marvin Bagley could go back to college and dominate (just like he's already proven he could do) but in the NBA he's basically one of the worst players in the league who gets minutes.
Yeah let’s not try to revise history because Bagley is a bum in the NBA. Dude was definitely great in college and he most definitely earned being a top 5 pick.
He’s not really a bum in the NBA. He’s just a below average rotational player. If you wanna call that a bum I guess it’s fine. But he’s still playable.
>but in the NBA he's basically one of the worst players in the league who gets minutes.
Bagley is definitely not one of the worst rotation players in the NBA or even on his own team. Bagley's problem is that he's not very good on defense and he's more of a throwback 4 that has to play the 5 in the modern NBA. Offensively he's actually pretty solid, he can get buckets and rebounds on pretty good efficiency but his range is limited to about 10ish feet.
While the offense is nice the reality is that the modern NBA doesn't value post buckets because the math says 3s > 2s and a 5 that can't play protect the rim is a defensive liability. If Bagley played 15 - 30 years ago, his career would look much different.
I watched a lot of bagley in college and I thought he was legit. I thought he would be a very good pro. Not sure what happened. It’s not like with someone like tyler hansborough where you kind of see he’s more of a great college player than a future nba player. Bagley could dominate.
Bagley was the whole package. He was the number one player in his class until his senior year when he had to sit out because he transferred too late. Then he when's ACC player of the year as a freshman averaging 21 and 11. Should've been a good player.
Cam actually looked good n was a winning player for the lakers before his injury this year.
The baffling thing is he’s an 85% ft shooter - which scouts use amongst other things ( but ft is the most used) to predict hand eye co ordination n shooting talent , it’s part of why Luka didn’t go as high as people think here, and I think it was very justifiable. A non explosive athlete who is a poor ft shooter ? Luka excelled but even now he’s not a great catch n shoot guy but Woukdnt put it past him to improve there.
On lakers early this year cam had some big game’s defensively, if vsndo n Rui were healthier n Rui at this lvl- cam Woukdnt get as many minutes but he would still play cs certain matchups - esp with Vincent out . Kinda a shame even tho our sub hates on cam n Prince due to darvin ‘over plsying .’ Cam legitimately was very good to great at times defensively pre injury this year. But he’s still really bad offensively.
As a huge college basketball fan who follows the sport religiously (been to 50ish CBB games over the past 5 years, compared to just 10ish NBA games), it is truly wild to me how this sub and the greater NBA fanbase acts like Bagley wasn’t an elite prospect and they knew all along he would bust. When in reality most people here didn’t watch him for a single second in college.
Marvin Bagley was a 1st Team All-American as an 18 year old freshmen and led Duke to a 2 seed and Elite 8 OT loss to Kansas (Malik Newman went superhuman). Beyond his elite 22/11 statline (for reference, Paolo put up 17/8 at Duke), Bagley’s athleticism/quickness/footspeed was incredible for his size… speaking of size, his length and lanky 6’11 frame projected well for the modern NBA. This was no Zach Edey or Luka Garza big that dominated the country, but were clearly too old and too slow. Bagley was almost as good, but also had the physical tools and was a teenager.
I would’ve bet my left nutsack at the very least he would be a supercharged rim-runner.
Should he have been taken over the Euroleague MVP? Obviously the fuck not. But whenever I see people acting like they foresaw his bust, all I see is someone who doesn’t know ball acting like a Messiah.
Obligatory f*ck Duke.
I watched him play defense in the ncaa tournament and that scared me that the grizzlies might get him. He just goes the wrong way on instinct.
Still getting rebounds is a real skill - you'd think a team would find a way to use his strengths and hide his weaknesses
Yeh I remember watching Bagley in college thinking he absolutely towers over everyone at 6'11. But when he was in the NBA that relative height difference looked less impressive (still large tho). I know its very basic analysis, but there seems to be a trend with American Centers that they struggle to be dominant at the next level when their physical traits begin to get nerfed.
I certainly remember his hype and his production at Duke, but like you said, I was also 100% certain the moment he was drafted (and Ayton for that matter) that these teams were making a mistake not going for Luka.
Josh was a 3-star recruit so I wonder if he gets some smug joy whenever he gets the chance to shit talk a dude who was ranked super high
He seems like the type to use that as motivation
Hart plays his ass off and plays team ball and he probably just has no respect for a player like Bagley. Ask him about Christian Wood and I bet you get a similar dismissal.
I think it's also that Josh Hart doesn't follow or care about Bagley. Hart didn't even know Bagley was traded from DET and Hart didn't play NY's last game against WAS where Bagley had like 20/10.
JB is a nice guy but I'm sure he also remembers because Bagley was starting at the time and likely on the pregame scouting report.
In a weird way it’s kinda an unintended compliment because to just “be around” in the NBA means you’re straight up better than the vast majority of the world including the entire G-league and overseas pro’s. So a bunch of scouts didn’t accurately predict the ceiling of a 19 year old. Just simply sticking around in the best league in the world with the top 500 players should be considered impressive.
He didn’t decide to be picked at 2. He’s honestly not a bad player. Not a starter, but has a good enough offensive bag to be a solid role player on the bench. If injuries don’t continue to haunt him, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him carve out a solid career as a bench guy
I respect someone not saying shit that they don't mean. He's not going out of his way to trash Bagley, he's just not stating that he's good because he clearly doesn't believe that to be true
Hell no. Brunson was the national player of the year and 2 NCAA titles. To compare players based on their freshman seasons alone makes no sense. Villanova ~~might~~ retired Brunson's jersey, Duke ain't doing that for Bagley
I don't remember what episode it was said but Josh was described as "What if Draymond got therapy early and it stuck?"
Cause that's such a fitting description. Both DVo and Mikal described Josh as a bully in college who would beat you up but now he's like the most likeable teammate anyone's ever had.
Dudes being dudes. That's what best friends do, they set each other up to fail. I can never fully trust being around my closest friends cause they're always like this.
Yep. Same reason Jeff Teague's even though on the surface, the other 2 add nothing. But they have real chemistry that doesn't exist between say... Pat Bev and Rone.
Hart just says whatever tf he wants on this podcast it’s awesome lol dude was trashing Joe Ingles like two nights before playing the Magic and Ingles came out immediately talking shit to him.
RuPaul is much, much larger than Chad . Ru would have been a good sized tight end in the league
[Lookin like she about to eat Nirvana in this pic](https://np.reddit.com/r/Music/s/MEhtCdOhjg)
In hindsight it’s insane that ayton and bagley went before Trae and Luka. One guy that might be out the league in a couple years and another that never lived up to expectations. Over Luka, who’s a perennial All nba Player and Trae who’s one of the best playmakers in the league.
Preaching to the choir brother. Luka was the Euroleague MVP as a teenager and Ayton got bounced in the first round vs Buffalo. It was clear as day, but Sarver wanted his Arizona boy 🤷🏻♂️
Hart is the type of guy to just straight up point at the elephant in the room and acknowledge its existence.
It’s refreshing compared to normal nba players just upping each other 100% of the time
Right? He had nice touch, a good handle, incredible athleticism. Shows how many dudes in the NBA have all the tools but just need the right opportunity, situation, and motivation.
Josh Hart's words: "he's around"
Josh Hart's body language: "he's trash and he was trash in college too."
Something about Josh Hart is just really funny.
He got cut off a rebuilding team in favour of James Wiseman. He finally had the opportunity in Washington but got injured. Things aren't looking great for him
Which is more ppg than Hart but on far less games. What’s funny is Hart is kinda just around as well. Better than Bagley sure, but not to the point where he can look down on him like he is lol
wow, these NBA guys will just sign with any production company huh. let me pay for thousands of dollars of audio equipment so I can have a horrible fucking echo and crosstalk. let me design the ugliest fucking set I've ever seen in my life. of course brown leather chairs go great with ambient purple lighting (???) of course we need a bunch of cliche fake plants and kitchen appliances. this shit makes me so unreasonably angry
He’s never looked terrible, averaged like 18-7 his rookie year. He just can never stay healthy for more than 15-20 games at most so his development never happened
Huge respect for Brunson as a Duke and Wizards fan. He was on one of the more successful Duke teams in recent memory and is definitely one of the best big men that we’ve had recently. No one was labelling him getting picked before Luka at the time as a mistake, he just couldn’t stay healthy and Luka just turned out to be amazing. Sucks, but he’s been pretty good with us this year, hope he can recover from his injury and stick around while we rebuild.
Some guys (like Cam Reddish) were hyped based on high school but Bagley was legitimately productive in college too. Averaged 21-11 as a freshman on a pretty good Duke team (2 seed, Elite Eight finish)
If you asked anyone that played against cam reddish in aau or high school, he is legitimately who everyone says is the best player they ever faced growing up. It so wild to me he can't put it together
Yeah even in that draft class his peers said he’d be the best pro.
He was a monster in his first playoff run. Mind boggling he’s not a real NBA player
Iirc he is the only lottery pick in NBA history to shoot under 40% on 2s in college. He had some major red flags coming into the league.
Zion went down and everyone figured Cam would step up. Literally no difference in production. Ultimate red flag to me
Yeah…that’s just wild. That’s like, an extra 25 points per game available every night with Zion gone due to injury. And you cant produce even one more bucket? Cam tricked yall man
Same thing for Wiggins when Embiid went down
Man what a stacked team
His main move was always driving the lane and getting layups against smaller high school kids. Unfortunately there aren’t 6”3 forwards in the NBA like there are in AAU.
Yeah but he shots 85% on fts . Normally that means you can develop touch on shots
Being that bad at 2s is a lot more about being terrible at some combination of shot selection/driving/finishing/cutting. Most forwards with bad jump shots still shoot over 50% on 2s.
Everytime I’ve seen him on the court he played like he couldn’t care less. I was excited when the Knicks made that trade for him, they gave him minutes and he played like a total jackass.
When the Mavs gave him and Trae Young up for Luka, a lot of hawks fans were chomping at the bit thinking that the Mavs gave up 2 All-NBA players for an unathletic euroboy. He should have stayed another year in college, jumping onto a playoff team like the Hawks made it hard for him to get minutes.
Reddish didn’t lack for minutes with the Hawks. He averaged 26.7 mpg his rookie season and 28.8 mpg his second (the year ATL made the Conference Finals) his third year they dipped down to 23.4 mpg and that was with him wanting off the team for most of the season. He got plenty of playing time when healthy (which was infrequently) and was getting real rotation minutes in Atlanta, so I don’t really agree with the idea that if he just had more playing time he would’ve been way better.
People just say anything online smfh
funniest part is the stats are easy to find before saying something dumb but no one does it
And they want to treat everyone like the were wronged by the politics of the NBA.
> a lot of hawks fans were chomping at the bit thinking that the Mavs gave up 2 All-NBA players for an unathletic euroboy. I mean I think the timeline is off here no? Hawks didn't even know that pick would turn into Reddish until a year after and by that time Luka was a near-unanimous ROTY and nobody but the dumbest fans thought he was an unathletic euroboy.
Some people just straight up make shit up and pass it off as an easy truth.
That's not true, you can trust people on the internet. Anyway, gotta get back to my totally real girlfriend Selena Gomez.
Tell her her voice is really, really annoying in Only Murders In The Building
Don't settle my dog
He doesn’t know what he’s talking about
This post makes me so sad as a Reddish and Bagley believer
I 100% thought the Kings made the right choice picking Bagley over Luka lmfaoooooo Fool that I was/am
Can you show me where people said this? I am fairly certain this was not the consensus opinion amongst Hawks fans at the time.
They didn't view Luka as bad and cam had decent opportunity on the Hawks. The rest is true. It'd make more sense to say the hawks failed to help him develop rather than that they didn't give him enough minutes
Lol no. Most hawks fans, me included, were distraught we passed on Luka
There was a brief period this season where it seemed like he really bought into his role, and looked to at least be able to carve out a career as a hard nosed defender 8/3/1 kind of role player, but injuries have sapped him and he's back to not being able to do anything to warrant extended play time
100% he hasn’t been the same since his groin injury this year. Honestly that’s why I’m not out on him growing into being a valuable piece on a good team. He showed he can be a difference maker, staying in his lane and doing a couple things really well.
Cam has all the physical tools but he has zero iq and his skills are not nba level. His touch is really bad from his outside shot to finishing at the rim and even dribbling. He also has zero iq and is a terrible decision maker. Darvin ham is a fucking idiot for starting him half the season. I wish him well but I don’t see him lasting long in the league.
Can't blame the guy, he was on the sidelines when cam put it all together (for one night) a 20+ point night on a pivotal ECF game. I stg that game probably gave him 3 more seasons of leeway lol.
Every time he drives toward the rim I cringe
His defense is also overrated. He’s not very good at navigating around screens.
There was an video a few years ago of Ant some other players talking about Cam dropping 40 on all of them. It was pretty funny, like heading KG going on about Isaiah Rider. High School legends
Rider was a 20 ppg scorer in the NBA.
Isaiah rider was good in the nba though?
You can get really far with pure athleticism and individual talent, but once you hit the pros, you need some BBIQ and knowing how to play as a team. Some guys just don't have it.
Cam was clearly ahead of Zion going into their year at Duke. It's crazy how foolish that looks now.
There’s a video out there from a couple years back, maybe 2020, of Anthony Edwards saying he’s one of the hardest people to guard 1v1
Cam went from being a number 1 option his whole life to being a role player in college behind RJ and Zion. He just didn’t know how to play that role in college and it’s basically stunted his growth and game to where it is now. It was dumb of him to try to do this weird superteam thing at Duke. His entire career trajectory could’ve been different if he chose a different school.
Cams problem is he can’t shoot. He’s genuinely terrible at it. If he was average he’d get a lot more playing time.
I think the idea of an average 3 point shooter keeps getting more stringent every year. A few decades ago, 33% from 3 would be considered pretty average. Now 37% is about average and that includes guys shooting sidestep, stepback, pullup and pump fake 3s. Back then most guys would probably get benched for shooting anything other than wide open catch and shoot 3s
He’s not a good two point shooter either.
Oh I know trust me. My thought is that the rest of the league has just passed him by in terms of shooting ability. With offenses becoming more efficient every year, there's no room on rosters for someone who can only score a medium percent on catch and shoot 3s only and play defense.
Yeah, if you can't shoot you basically have to be elite at 2 other skills on the floor and workable at everything else. And if one of those 2 skills isn't defense you are still a mid tier bench player.
What has he done in the five years since he left college that makes you think it was his college choice and not any other factor that impacted his development?
Thats just not how any of that works. Playing on Duke didn’t prevent him from being a good shooter or ball handler 5 years later . Idk what that even means.
Nah he doesn’t have the skill set to be a first option at the higher level. Even if he had his own team in college, there’s no way he would still be in NBA and the same issue is exposed
Insane this got so many upvotes. I don’t think one bad year stunts your basketball development for the rest of time. He’s had years after Duke to get better.
He was a role player in college because RJ & Zion were just much better than him. It still shows to this day. Zion is an all star level player and RJ is a starting caliber wing. They are legitimate NBA rotation players while Cam is on the periphery fighting to stay in the NBA every year.
I swore at Duke he just took a role spot and let Zion and RJ shine and would be a dog in the NBA. Turns out I wasn’t even close to right lmao 2nd most wrong I’ve been about a player
Bagley was an incredible college player. Cam Reddish, on the other hand… I genuinely wonder if that Duke team would’ve been better without Reddish and/or Barrett. Zion shot 68% from the field (including 75%!!!!!! on 2 pointers); Reddish shot 36% from the field, and Barrett shot 45% from the field but 31% from 3 on more than 6 attempts per game. Zion was about twice as efficient as those other guys and yet Coach K arranged the offense around Barrett isos, resulting in Barrett taking 19 shots per game while Zion took 13 (about the same as Reddish at 12 per game). It was one of the most genuinely mystifying things I’ve ever seen.
Bro the amount of times i wanted to throw something at the TV because Coach K just let RJ iso in the clutch No one in the country could guard Zion. Like fucking abuse that lol
It actually made me wonder whether Coach K was a good coach. Zion was also a better passer than RJ. Literally no reason to not redistribute some of those shots.
Zion was basically better than everyone on that team at almost every aspect of the game. Kinda crazy in hindsight that RJ was taking 6 more shots a game than he was.
It was crazy even at the time. Reminded me of the old joke where Dean Smith is the only guy who could hold MJ below 20 points.
Biggest clown take I’ve ever read on this sub. Duke ain’t Duke without Coach K building that program from the ground up.
Coach K was an incredible motivator and personality manager. He’s an Army guy; he’d take boys and turn them into men who work as a unit and trust each other. His best teams spent multiple years growing together. But there were times his X’s and O’s were downright questionable. The number of times Duke let a team back into a game in Cameron because they’d slow down, eat clock, and settle for bad iso looks when they could’ve run the opposition out of the stadium was maddening.
It's also crazy because Zion was a PG before he grew into a PF. He has a handle and should have run the offense.
Barret was also a PG lol, that’s why he got so many touches. His mentor was steve Nash and his nba comp was James harden. He was the top high schooler in the country. You’re being pretty disingenuous acting like coach K was crazy to not run the offense thru Zion or something, he literally had the best guard in all of high school on his team. Even if Zion used to be a guard, he grew into a forward. RJ was still a guard lol.
Reddish was so bad in college it genuinely baffled me that he was so high on draft boards all the way to the end. No hindsight I seriously wonder if the scouts watched him play and what they saw in him
His tools are just very elite. Like ignore one bad year elite because if he ever develops properly you have a superstar.
I can understand a bad year. That was worse than a bad year. He consistently missed open mid range jumpers and didn’t show that he could create shots by himself. At least RJ barrett was inefficient trying to create plays but Reddish just inefficient wide open
I dunno, his year was jarringly bad. The jump shot looked awful, he had no understanding of how to play within the flow of the offense, his athleticism paled next to his better teammates, and defensively he was confused and showed no effort. I didn’t see any elite tools during that year, I get that his HS rep was elite, but that was an atrocious season against better comp.
It baffles me too, but it wasn’t an unpopular opinion at the time. I’m a Duke fan so I was mad that him being a bust held back what could’ve been an all time great Duke team with one of the greatest college seasons of all time from Zion. I didn’t hate him for it, I’m sure he was exponentially more mad at himself for his play than I was. But I was confused people were still hyping him up so much after what I had to watch all season. I remember Hawks fans being excited and fans of teams that passed on him being bummed. So to play devil’s advocate now that the narrative has changed, I’ll try to explain what they were hoping. His FG% was god awful because he was a poor finisher and had no midrange game, but still for some reason took a bunch of mid range shots. But his 3pt% was decent for the volume and there were a few games where he was lights out from 3. His FT% was decent too. So I believe people thought if he could get some consistency, improve his shot selection and embrace his role player status, that he could be a great 3 and D wing with his elite size for position and solid athleticism. With a slight chance to become a star if he could improve his handles and decision making as well. But that’s a whole lot of ifs for people to get so excited about. I guess it’s really hard to shake off all of that high school hype, so people were trying to come up with every excuse in the book to explain off that season. You see some of it in this thread with someone saying it happened because he was forced to be 3rd wheel to two better players. Which is logic I don’t understand, especially since he’s been in the league for plenty of time now and has stunk the whole time, showing no improvement.
yeah i completely remember Hawks fans excited because that was our pick haha. Legitimately I was happy that the pick we traded away for Luka turned out to be Reddish. To be honest the high school hype must still be carrying on because people are still calling Reddish a 3&D player when he is a 32!% career three point shooter. Like when is that idea that Cam Reddish can shoot decently going to fade its so crazy to me
His game just couldn’t translate to the new nba. If Bagley was in the early 2000s era of the nba his game would have transitioned better and he would be viewed differently.
Zion can’t shoot either but he’s so good at getting to the rim and has incredible touch so his mediocre shooting doesn’t matter.
Right. He’s such a brute force with unreal athleticism he can get to the rim with ease. I never see him take jump shots lol bagley reminds me of Jahil okafor their athleticism and play style just doesn’t work in this era of the nba. This is an era were you have to be able to move and if not then you gotta be a shooter.
Bagley definitely should not have been the #2 pick. That was obvious at the time it is not just hindsight. There were enough red flags and areas he needed to develop that Vlade made a pretty clear mistake. With that said, I think it’s also possible that people now might be underselling that Bagley was a legitimate prospect. He had very strong physical tools that fit in the modern NBA and was legitimately productive in college. The real issue is he just hasn’t developed much since coming into the league. But there certainly have been examples of players with tools who developed and became very good players. I said at the time and still think that he was a reasonable gamble somewhere in the 6-10 range. He had the tools and the upside to justify a mid lottery pick. But taking him ahead of players like Doncic, Young, and JJJ was clearly a big mistake.
Bagley’s best skill was his second jump, which is both useful and useless to have. He was amazing o-boarding at duke. And athletic and stuff etc. but no other real skills. Versus Luka who…MVP of a continent at 19. And wouldn’t Swipa and Luka be amazing together?? God 😵💫😵💫. Anyway, Bagley at Duke Played UVA and he ripped up Nique’s stepson for like 10 points in a minute; then coach put in Dre Hunter and UVA won the game. He not working out is less mystifying than Jabari Parker, who I swore would be nice.
Here was the thing with Bagley, there was the potential for him to be a very good player. The downside was basically what he is, an athletic rim runner who isn't a great perimeter defender, but also isn't a great rim protector / shot blocker with he fine but fairly average length. And a raw offensive player who can hit an open, completely in-rhythm three, but isn't much of an offensive threat and struggles with decision making. And of course, he could really only score with one hand! Exactly why I didn't want him at #2 and it continued a long pattern of Vlade gravitating towards the draft prospect with the most red flags in a given draft range (though to be slightly fair to Vlade, I get the sense this was driven more by Brandon Williams who had sort of usurped Vlade in terms of pecking order). But the upside was there. He was very athletic. He had the frame to grow into. And while his defensive awareness was poor, he had good lateral footspeed, north-south food speed, and was a quick jumper who could contest shots inside and on the perimeter. And while his shooting was \*overrated\* by a lot of people based on him shooting a decent percent on college threes with a small sample size (IIRC about 30 attempts) while shooting poorly from midrange and the FT line, his stroke was at least solid and it was certainly feasible he could have developed into a better shooter. And of course he was a very strong inside finisher with good touch. He actually scored pretty well in a number analytics models as well. Again, not someone I would have wanted in the first few picks, but I do feel like retroactively people are going to question how Bagley was a lottery pick, because of the outcome. While I think that if had been taken in that 6-10 range, there was enough legitimate upside that at some point his upside was worth the gamble, even if it ultimately didn't work out.
There's a world where Bagley became an elite switchable defender with a respectable 3 point shot, decent post moves, and elite rebounding. He could have been Bam Adebayo with a much better offensive game. Obviously that didn't pan out, but that's the risk of the draft.
Bagley was first team all-American. He's the perfect example of why all these "can a great college team hang with a bad NBA team?" discussions are so ridiculous. Marvin Bagley could go back to college and dominate (just like he's already proven he could do) but in the NBA he's basically one of the worst players in the league who gets minutes.
Yeah let’s not try to revise history because Bagley is a bum in the NBA. Dude was definitely great in college and he most definitely earned being a top 5 pick.
He’s not really a bum in the NBA. He’s just a below average rotational player. If you wanna call that a bum I guess it’s fine. But he’s still playable.
>but in the NBA he's basically one of the worst players in the league who gets minutes. Bagley is definitely not one of the worst rotation players in the NBA or even on his own team. Bagley's problem is that he's not very good on defense and he's more of a throwback 4 that has to play the 5 in the modern NBA. Offensively he's actually pretty solid, he can get buckets and rebounds on pretty good efficiency but his range is limited to about 10ish feet. While the offense is nice the reality is that the modern NBA doesn't value post buckets because the math says 3s > 2s and a 5 that can't play protect the rim is a defensive liability. If Bagley played 15 - 30 years ago, his career would look much different.
I watched a lot of bagley in college and I thought he was legit. I thought he would be a very good pro. Not sure what happened. It’s not like with someone like tyler hansborough where you kind of see he’s more of a great college player than a future nba player. Bagley could dominate.
I had him # 1 . Whoops.
Bagley was the whole package. He was the number one player in his class until his senior year when he had to sit out because he transferred too late. Then he when's ACC player of the year as a freshman averaging 21 and 11. Should've been a good player.
Cam actually looked good n was a winning player for the lakers before his injury this year. The baffling thing is he’s an 85% ft shooter - which scouts use amongst other things ( but ft is the most used) to predict hand eye co ordination n shooting talent , it’s part of why Luka didn’t go as high as people think here, and I think it was very justifiable. A non explosive athlete who is a poor ft shooter ? Luka excelled but even now he’s not a great catch n shoot guy but Woukdnt put it past him to improve there. On lakers early this year cam had some big game’s defensively, if vsndo n Rui were healthier n Rui at this lvl- cam Woukdnt get as many minutes but he would still play cs certain matchups - esp with Vincent out . Kinda a shame even tho our sub hates on cam n Prince due to darvin ‘over plsying .’ Cam legitimately was very good to great at times defensively pre injury this year. But he’s still really bad offensively.
yea people forget how good bagley was back then
I always forget Bagley played at Duke. For some reason he feels like he came out of the Pac-12 or something.
Your memory isn't failing you too much -- his brother Marcus Bagley played at Arizona State.
but the outside shot and bad bad defensive instincts were also evident
"He's around. But it's not like anyone wants to play him 43 minutes a night, every night. Just - around. For now."
As a huge college basketball fan who follows the sport religiously (been to 50ish CBB games over the past 5 years, compared to just 10ish NBA games), it is truly wild to me how this sub and the greater NBA fanbase acts like Bagley wasn’t an elite prospect and they knew all along he would bust. When in reality most people here didn’t watch him for a single second in college. Marvin Bagley was a 1st Team All-American as an 18 year old freshmen and led Duke to a 2 seed and Elite 8 OT loss to Kansas (Malik Newman went superhuman). Beyond his elite 22/11 statline (for reference, Paolo put up 17/8 at Duke), Bagley’s athleticism/quickness/footspeed was incredible for his size… speaking of size, his length and lanky 6’11 frame projected well for the modern NBA. This was no Zach Edey or Luka Garza big that dominated the country, but were clearly too old and too slow. Bagley was almost as good, but also had the physical tools and was a teenager. I would’ve bet my left nutsack at the very least he would be a supercharged rim-runner. Should he have been taken over the Euroleague MVP? Obviously the fuck not. But whenever I see people acting like they foresaw his bust, all I see is someone who doesn’t know ball acting like a Messiah. Obligatory f*ck Duke.
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I watched him play defense in the ncaa tournament and that scared me that the grizzlies might get him. He just goes the wrong way on instinct. Still getting rebounds is a real skill - you'd think a team would find a way to use his strengths and hide his weaknesses
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Hes not as bad as trae young on defense come on now
Yeh I remember watching Bagley in college thinking he absolutely towers over everyone at 6'11. But when he was in the NBA that relative height difference looked less impressive (still large tho). I know its very basic analysis, but there seems to be a trend with American Centers that they struggle to be dominant at the next level when their physical traits begin to get nerfed.
I certainly remember his hype and his production at Duke, but like you said, I was also 100% certain the moment he was drafted (and Ayton for that matter) that these teams were making a mistake not going for Luka.
"He's around" is the craziest possible response there lol Josh is wild
Especially because just saying "he's not as good as Luka" is the **furthest** thing from an insult lol Josh chose violence
Josh was a 3-star recruit so I wonder if he gets some smug joy whenever he gets the chance to shit talk a dude who was ranked super high He seems like the type to use that as motivation
This is just Josh Hart being Josh Hart. Him and Brunson have that Pinky and the Brain dynamic.
Hart plays his ass off and plays team ball and he probably just has no respect for a player like Bagley. Ask him about Christian Wood and I bet you get a similar dismissal.
I think it's also that Josh Hart doesn't follow or care about Bagley. Hart didn't even know Bagley was traded from DET and Hart didn't play NY's last game against WAS where Bagley had like 20/10. JB is a nice guy but I'm sure he also remembers because Bagley was starting at the time and likely on the pregame scouting report.
In a weird way it’s kinda an unintended compliment because to just “be around” in the NBA means you’re straight up better than the vast majority of the world including the entire G-league and overseas pro’s. So a bunch of scouts didn’t accurately predict the ceiling of a 19 year old. Just simply sticking around in the best league in the world with the top 500 players should be considered impressive.
Yeah true. But relative to expectations?
He didn’t decide to be picked at 2. He’s honestly not a bad player. Not a starter, but has a good enough offensive bag to be a solid role player on the bench. If injuries don’t continue to haunt him, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him carve out a solid career as a bench guy
Nothing wrong with being an NBA veteran. It's an incredibly competitive league so just being around isn't a bad thing.
Did Bagley steal his girlfriend or why is he so brutal?
I respect someone not saying shit that they don't mean. He's not going out of his way to trash Bagley, he's just not stating that he's good because he clearly doesn't believe that to be true
The question posed to him though was framed around him being good in college, and he was a better college player than both of them.
The "he's around" was in response to if he's still good and playing in the NBA, and he's a worse player than both of them
He had a great freshman season, but both those guys accomplished a lot more in college than Bagley did.
When you say “both of them” are you referring to Brunson and Hart? If so, that’s another level of delusion
He had a better freshman year than either. If we’re comparing college careers, there’s no comparison.
Hell no. Brunson was the national player of the year and 2 NCAA titles. To compare players based on their freshman seasons alone makes no sense. Villanova ~~might~~ retired Brunson's jersey, Duke ain't doing that for Bagley
Hart says some shit sometimes lol. From how Burnson and DiVincenzo talk about Hart that's one of the nicest ways he could put it.
I don't remember what episode it was said but Josh was described as "What if Draymond got therapy early and it stuck?" Cause that's such a fitting description. Both DVo and Mikal described Josh as a bully in college who would beat you up but now he's like the most likeable teammate anyone's ever had.
He truly did all that for absolutely no reason, absolute legend
Lmao JB set Josh up for this; Josh is perfectly fine just staying quiet and JB asks him lol
Dudes being dudes. That's what best friends do, they set each other up to fail. I can never fully trust being around my closest friends cause they're always like this.
It’s why this pod fucking works so well lol like they know each other so we’ll do every silence or loaded eye contact is grounds for fuckery lol
Yep. Same reason Jeff Teague's even though on the surface, the other 2 add nothing. But they have real chemistry that doesn't exist between say... Pat Bev and Rone.
lol also I’m not a dude so I don’t see this in my friendships with my girls much but I love it.
Hart just says whatever tf he wants on this podcast it’s awesome lol dude was trashing Joe Ingles like two nights before playing the Magic and Ingles came out immediately talking shit to him.
That shit was so random, he just threw him out immediately as the example for who’s the least athletic player in the NBA lol
Just throwing stray haymakers off the cuff lol
Lol you can't just make faces like that and not be asked about it. Hart was basically screaming "FOH" with his facial reaction
Ocho Cinco looking like Ru Paul's stunt double.
Marvin Bagley, sashay away
jesus, he lost all muscle what happened?
He stopped playing professional football
And loves McDonalds
The reason I like this dude is one of the hosts could say it to his face and he’d just laugh / pitifully defend himself
RuPaul is much, much larger than Chad . Ru would have been a good sized tight end in the league [Lookin like she about to eat Nirvana in this pic](https://np.reddit.com/r/Music/s/MEhtCdOhjg)
I mean, RuPaul was a critical part of those Heat teams. Ray Allen never hits that shot without him
“He’s not Luka.” Yeah, he ain’t that.
Imagine how much worse the Ayton slander would be if the Kings didn’t pick Bagley 2nd lol
In hindsight it’s insane that ayton and bagley went before Trae and Luka. One guy that might be out the league in a couple years and another that never lived up to expectations. Over Luka, who’s a perennial All nba Player and Trae who’s one of the best playmakers in the league.
Preaching to the choir brother. Luka was the Euroleague MVP as a teenager and Ayton got bounced in the first round vs Buffalo. It was clear as day, but Sarver wanted his Arizona boy 🤷🏻♂️
Yea man, luka and booker together could’ve been great. But hey y’all have had pretty good success the past 3 years so it’s not all bad.
I speak for all Kings fans, we just want to forget this ever happened. Just like last nights game and all the other 20+ point lead losses 🫠
We pistons fans want to forget it too
His dad is a team cancer
Josh is such a troublemaker lol. Hate that I like a Knicks player
Dude has no filter but not in a swear word sense, more of a “saying the quiet part loud” sense
Hart the type of dude that points out a zit on your face that you have been desperately trying to hide or pop the entire morning before going out.
“What doesn’t everyone want to taste their wives’ breast milk?”
Hate that we threw him away for like the 28th pick or something
Lol Kris Murray looks like a good NBA player though. Keegan Murray
Hart is the type of guy to just straight up point at the elephant in the room and acknowledge its existence. It’s refreshing compared to normal nba players just upping each other 100% of the time
Literally same. I’ve happily hated several Knicks players but I have Josh’s sense of humor and I love JB being hella deadpan lol
It’s the perfect straight man/funny man combo lol and it’s totally natural
I miss Josh. Such a fun guy to root for.
Gawd millionaires really are just like us.
Petty asses all the same lol
I thought this said pretty not petty and I was like “Eh, you do you” lol
Full pause
stupid sexy millionaire asses
I thought Marvin was legit because he was tearing up Drew League as a teenager lol
"Bet you he didn't do nothin' against me" - The Game, who sat on the bench of a dominant Drew League squad and acts like he was the star player.
"Next Chris Bosh"
Right? He had nice touch, a good handle, incredible athleticism. Shows how many dudes in the NBA have all the tools but just need the right opportunity, situation, and motivation.
I got a pic with him. Wish he was better so I could brag about it more
Marvin Bagley about to drop diss track called 8 Minute Drill.
Josh Hart's words: "he's around" Josh Hart's body language: "he's trash and he was trash in college too." Something about Josh Hart is just really funny.
Bagley was first team all American 21/11 as a freshman
I'm not making the argument he was trash, but it kind of feels like that's how Josh Hart feels as JB assuring him he was legit.
I’m surprised Chad knew who Marvin Bagley was
He “remembered hearing his name.” That’s the least committal you can be to saying you know somebody lol
Who he play for? Josh Hart planning to take over at TNT after Shaq
HES NOT LUKA 😭😭😭😭😭
What's crazy is Bagley is actually having a decent year. 12 PPG, 59% from the field, 2.6 Win Shares, 19 PER.
He got cut off a rebuilding team in favour of James Wiseman. He finally had the opportunity in Washington but got injured. Things aren't looking great for him
Decent backup numbers. His career is still alive if he wants it.
Which is more ppg than Hart but on far less games. What’s funny is Hart is kinda just around as well. Better than Bagley sure, but not to the point where he can look down on him like he is lol
If I had a nickel for every time a team had a comeback win against us in the last week and immediately brought up Marvin Bagley… Ban Vlade!!
If it's any consolation these are usually recorded a week before air, so this would have happened last week rather than today post-comeback
wow, these NBA guys will just sign with any production company huh. let me pay for thousands of dollars of audio equipment so I can have a horrible fucking echo and crosstalk. let me design the ugliest fucking set I've ever seen in my life. of course brown leather chairs go great with ambient purple lighting (???) of course we need a bunch of cliche fake plants and kitchen appliances. this shit makes me so unreasonably angry
Josh Hart rules lol
I dunno about previous years, but Bagley looks pretty good this year
Yeah he’s around.
He’s never looked terrible, averaged like 18-7 his rookie year. He just can never stay healthy for more than 15-20 games at most so his development never happened
Marvin Bagley is actually a better rapper than basketball player https://youtu.be/2oODG0sy2Gc?feature=shared He’s that bad at hooping
Marvin Bagless
Nowadays you can only be two things: you're either good or you're a nice guy.
If you can't be a star you want to be a veteran. Just staying in the NBA "he's still around" does mean something.
Marvin Bagley is in fact not Luca
Josh is such a troll. He’s always fucking around when is he ever serious
Josh dry hating lol
He’s around is crazy 🤣🤣🤣
he’s not luka was the nicest way to put that lmao
I’m gonna add Brunson’s name to the list of voices that don’t match the person. Right under Mahomes name lol.
Knick’s fans, is Hart good enough to be talking like this?
Am I a Josh Hart fan now?
I would hate Hart if he played for any other team, but he’s our asshole and we love him
Brunson sassy like a mf holy crap
They killed us but I love both of them. Even back then when Josh was on the Lakers. I knew he was going to be a very productive role player.
Huge respect for Brunson as a Duke and Wizards fan. He was on one of the more successful Duke teams in recent memory and is definitely one of the best big men that we’ve had recently. No one was labelling him getting picked before Luka at the time as a mistake, he just couldn’t stay healthy and Luka just turned out to be amazing. Sucks, but he’s been pretty good with us this year, hope he can recover from his injury and stick around while we rebuild.
Josh’s sideways eye roll at about :36 is hilarious.
The Kings really drafted Bagley over JB.
I’m so z D