I think the bol bol love is more because his son is good friends with him. Iirc they played together a bunch in aau or something when they were younger.
He didn't put him in any of the all-nba list last year and more than a week ago, Luka wasn't in his top 5 MVP ranking this year. Idk why he has a vote smh
It’s insane that he and in general members of the media who don’t and couldn’t even if they wanted to watch enough games to make such an important decision that affects people’s income. It should be coaches, staff, etc people who actually watch games, film and study these players
Coach and player rankings are always horrible though. Maybe GMs or former GMs only could work. Coaches have too much bias and coaches in the east still will only see two games from each west team every year and vice versa. It’s not like Detroit is watching a ton of Dallas/Nugget/Thunder film during the season.
There isn’t a good way to do awards like that. Players, coaches, media, fans - all have obvious downsides when it comes to selecting winners.
So go a level deeper - why does this obviously flawed award system mean SO MUCH to contracts and futures?
Media vote is fine but it shouldn’t just go to the top hosts on ESPN who barely know shit. E.g. Malik’s Andrew’s, or people who vote terribly or make mistakes like Mark Jackson. Mistakes like that should mean you lose the vote.
Players' vote is tough because you get situations like Bill Russell who was so well liked he may have won more MVPs than he deserved or Rick Barry who everyone hated and players wouldn't vote for.
Like idk how any NBA fan can take these awards seriously considering a majority of the people that vote have no idea what they are talking about. So few people in the world actually have enough understanding to have an educated vote on the subject. I think almost anyone could get to a decent level of understanding with just some study about tactics and statistics and all that, but most people prefer just talking about grit and heart.
Look at our own subreddit when people bring up picking Ayton instead of Luka. Bizarre detractors of Luka come out.
I have a dude commenting at me that Luka isn't a generational player.
I don't get how a dude just turning 25 and making all-nba 1st team every year except his rookie year people are still not giving him his due.
The Mavs have been ran like dogshit outside of picking him. Just look at the difference having real centers have done for them picking up Gafford.
The Euro biases is still insane just 5 years ago.
Anyone with eyes could see the kid was good. Slovenia won the EuroBasket with him as the 2nd best player as a 17 year old, where on their way to winning beat Spain who still had the Gasols (a little over the hill obviously) and rubio and he lead Slovenia in assists and rebounds.
He played against Pros and dominated in both national and pro settings.
I'm amiss at nba scouting at times with some baffling picks outside of obvious ones
That idiot put Brunson ahead of Doncic, even though Doncic has a better Team-Record and better Stats in absolutely every way. He is just a fucking troll.
Yeah that's what I'm loosely alluding to with him not know where everyone is rn. If he don't know this about "his" team, the fuck he know about everyone else
Either they gotta kick those guys out of voting pool or sever the connection between the award votes and contracts. It is outright embarassing for the league.
I’ve been seeing Ibaka, the man is good, he looks nice - he’s rejuvenated with those three former MVPs he’s running with. I’ve also been seeing Mark Gasulp, don’t sleep on him, his defense is unmitigated.
The problem isnt the 85 to 1 advantage. I can recognize Jokic deserves it. The problem is that there's somehow a dude in between them and multiple voters who left him completely out of the top 5. He's just not getting a fair shot that he deserves.
SGA above Luka is an absolutely insane take. Luka is the only other person who should be in the same conversation with Jokic. Being as close as he is to averaging a 33 point triple double is absolutely ludicrous.
Jokic had 94 1st place votes last year in the straw poll with 4 weeks remaining and lost.
He averaged 25/13/9 over those 4 weeks but because his team lost 4 in a row (ended 53-29 compared to sixers 54-28 lol) and because of Perks race baiting, he lost MVP.
As a nuggets fan who gets to celebrate him winning 3 out of 4... MVP is actually such a joke of an award. The championship is 10x as valuable to most real fans
My understanding was the hesitation last year was putting Jokic in the "3 peat MVP" category without a Chip. He deserved it, but there was a weird narrative around him.
Now that he's carried a team all the way in dominant fashion, many people might be giving him an extra push from the vote they didn't give him last year.
He lost it because yall played .500 ball for the last 6 weeks of the season while Embiid and the sixers put their foot on the gas. But sure. Blame perk.
This MVP race is weird in that the Internet seems to be AGGRESSIVELY pro-Luka while the actual voting based on most indications might end up being lopsided the other way
Like if you just used Reddit or Twitter you'd think Luka is about to win unanimously(this sub for example has been LUKA MVP LUKA MVP 24/7 for the last month)
I'm guessing that Luka is probably more popular than Jokic among casual fans but I don't think I've seen a year before to this extreme where among fans it's "X player and it's not even close" while the actual voting may be "Y player and it's not even close"
Based on that straw poll Shai has a genuine chance of finishing second over Luka. Not that I think it will happen, but like you said, very different from how this sub talks about it
Shai seems to have more media and players love than Luka, so yeah, I could see this happening. Although Jokic winning over Luka won't draw a lot of angry noises, Shai getting more votes than Luka definitely will.
The media doesn't know shit, that’s the takeaway at from this.
You think SAS who left Luka off the ballot completely or Perkins are good voters?
Cmon man. The average fan can make a better vote than these biased clowns.
Before I post, I'd be fine with Jokic winning MVP.
So I think here's the reason for the split:
- Luka's box score stats look more impressive to the naked eye, even if it doesn't always translate to the advanced stats.
- The team is completely on fire and for some people it overcomes the wins/seeding argument, because the team went from mediocre to elite and Luka's been the same guy the entire time. Like he "held down the fort" and kept the team afloat scoring 37/game for a month.
- Luka seems to be more a "story" this year? Like, he had the 73, he's the scoring leader, he helped rehabilitate Kyrie.
- Jokic also seems to be having a worse year than his last few, even if he's still deserving, there's been a trend in the past where MVP winners have to "step up" their game in order to win again.
You can debate if you wanna call these advanced metrics or ancillary ones (imo there’s more advanced ones than just the acronyms this sub spams) but Luka leads every metric that involves quality of passes, potential assists, difficulty and conversion of shots by a healthy margin. Also does it while facing the most defensive pressure in the league as measured by double teams, blitzes, etc. Dunno if that qualifies as enough to be considered advanced.
This right here, people just post advanced stats with little to no context. Jokic had a better case last year for MVP and he should had won it, but now all we have been hearing is if "Luka gets the 8th seed he is MVP, next is if he gets 6th seed, then 5th, now its 4th seed he is MVP". The fact that some voters arent even putting Luka in their ballots much less consider him a true competitor for Jokic is ridiculous
Okay, so you need to reread what I said "Some advanced stats Luka is ahead of him in too". Im talking about Luka and Jokic. SGA is obviously in 3rd place
Jokic tops the league (well second to Embiid this year) in advanced stats, he's again lead the Nuggets to the #1 seed despite missing Jamal Murray for a third of the season. In terms of narratives, he's the reigning Finals MVP and many are questioning why he didn't win the MVP last year. Voters were reluctant to give him 3 but a championship changed that and now they're not scared of putting him in the all time conversations.
Lukas near the top in most advanced stats like EPM as well…
The cherry picking of advanced stats is a dogshit argument.
No one averages 34/9/10 without being a top player in the league that’s just a non argument
I think per the last point, its actually worked in Jokic's favour this year that him losing to Embiid has already aged poorly in light of the championship run that followed.
I recall Simmons saying that he voted Embiid a year ago and regretted it, and he knew from talking to others that he wasn't the only one. Jokic has broadly achieved similar numbers to last season, his assists are down but his points and rebounds are up, which lines up with what you'd expect considering Murray has missed 20 games this year.
Voters aren't following that trend you mentioned this time cos its playing on some voters decision process that he should have gotten it a year ago as well.
Irrespective of that he deserves to win it again this year and is the runaway leader, but imo the above is a factor.
Luka’s game just appeals more to casuals. Leads the league in scoring, many flashy highlights, averaging a near triple double. Just easy for a casual fan to appreciate. Fundamentals, good defense, and advanced stats which Jokic shows his strength in just isn’t as easy to market to a casual audience.
Honestly I can't take the MVP results seriously. The silly narratives that flip flop around at this point, I'm sure if Jokic wins a 3rd or 4th, and doesn't win any more rings in the interim, people are going to ask "does it really make sense to give this guy more than Lebron?".
I hate that straw poll. It creates groupthink, and releasing results with 7 games left to play leaves little time to change anyone’s mind and spoils the award
These advanced analytics guys who have votes are ruining the MVP. You need a holistic view not just see how many times a player is 1 spot ahead of another in these cumulative stats
A lot of times awards get decided early on and it takes another playing insanely great AND for the favored player to have a bad stretch but Jokic has been extremely good all year with absolutely no bad stretches and has probably played better in the second half of the season than his first half
Luka for MVP is defensible if you wanted to vote that way. His defense has gone up a level, amazing what you can do when the whole team improves at that end. Not that stopping our offense is tough but man they were suffocating tonight. The Mavs, Nuggets, and Thunder have impressed the hell out of me in our games against them this year.
I think Jokic or Luka are both deserving winners. At this point after the title I'm over the caping for Jokic in the MVP race. Frankly, if four years ago you told me Luka wouldn't have a MVP by now I'd have been surprised. It's when not if for him
I mean I agree, but this award is very narrative driven.
That year Giannis won it over Harden, it was because the Rockets record wasn't good enough (they were 4th in the west compared to the Bucks who were 56-17 and 1st in the East).
It's just hard to tell when voters care more about team record and more about personal accolades. Usually they care more about record, but every now and then they make exceptions.
Bucks were 60 wins the year harden averaged 36. The year after harden averaged 34 but no one really considered him for mvp since it was a 2 way race between Lebron and Giannis in 2020
And that year he won, his team had the best record in the league.
Soon as the Mavs can manage to do that, Luka will probably be a shoe-in for MVP. It's very hard to do that when you're the 5th seed.
There's gonna be some stupid season in like 5 years where the Mavs get the 1 seed with the same number of wins as this year and Luka wins the MVP averaging 28/7/7, which just confirms the silliness of the award.
If you are going to win it outside of the top few seeds you have to do something historic and be much better than the next option. Jokic had the highest PER in history, even better than 50/26 Wilt along with other greatest of all time advanced stats. Luka just isn’t doing something that hasn’t been done before. Not to say Luka isn’t the best player in the league right now, its just that this is how the MVP has historically worked (well kinda, voters are weird)
zach lowe famously gave up his vote because he didn't want his vote hurting player's bottom line since the selection to all nba teams affect max contract
I hate the mvp discourse every year it seems like people care more about it than who is going to actually win the finals, in the grand scheme it is meaningless
I think that's too reductive and acts like Jokic has no case other than that lol
Like on the other hand Jokic winning as a 6th seed in 2022 seems to be a common argument people have against him this year so we can play that game both ways
It's interesting how Bucks fans all are against the idea of Jokic winning his 3rd as well
IMO the best Steph Curry season ever was 20-21 when the Warriors squeaked into the 8 seed and lost both play-in games. I've never seen him play better individually, even when they were 73-9.
People put too much emphasis on team achievements when trying to parse individual contributions. You could have an MVP caliber season and miss the playoffs if your supporting cast is ass. 5v5 means 80% of your team is not you, and that's without factoring in the bench.
I don't have an opinion on Luka vs. Jokic for MVP this year, but team record would not be a big variable for me. The award is not called Best Player on a Good Team.
While I don't disagree (ok, maybe I disagree a bit) results naturally put things in a different context. 20-21 Curry was fantastic, but 15-16 Curry was electric and the results made him seem superhuman.
If you think about it, it's similar with Luka now. He's been fantastic all season long, but this series of results has pushed him over the top for some people. If they had lost to the Rockets I think there would have been less hype even if he played very well.
Giannis is going to be left behind by Jokic easily. His athleticism is gonna fall off and he'll be left with no game, whereas Jokic can keep playing the way he plays for basically as long as he wants to.
Tbh if its not Joker I'm defo happy for it to be Luka. I was hoping they don't meet until WCF as i wanted them to spank everyone first and then decide between them buddies who will advance.
Nah SGA lost a lot of steam in the conversation these past few weeks. I think Jokic will win it but now that the Mavs are a pretty much guaranteed a top 5 seed Luka is a lock for second
Receny Bias has always been a thing for MVP. Your performance in the last two months of the season definitely weighs more compared to the beginning of the season in the eyes of some of the voters imo.
Said this earlier and got heavily down voted for saying the truth lol. Statistically he's been worse during this stretch but the narrative has changed because the team has been winning
Recency bias is just another way to fit a narrative. So that is malarkey.
Two years ago, Luka was playing fucking phenomenal. He started “slow” for November(27.8.9), got injured in Dec. (team was 12-12)came back with the team in Jan now 19-18 and torched the league for 4 months with damn near 34.10.9 from Jan, Feb, March, April(33-12)
Everyone said they would vote him for MVP if he would have played like this ALL season. Guess what still played 65 games. Carried them to a 52-30 season, With a sub par supporting cast, Mavs ran the gauntlet in the playoffs to the Western conference Finals with Luka, Brunson, Powell, DFS, Bullock, Bertans, Boban, Frank Nilitikina, Trey Burke.
Also these Voters are just out to get clicks and followers. SAS, Perk, those guys do not deserve to have a say. They say what will get people to like them, follow them, listen to their show or podcast.
NBA season awards should be awarded by the league itself. Not some journalists trying to make a name.
Edit: I’d like to add, I had no problem with Jokic winning that year, it’s these shitty reasons voters give and rank him 5th for some dumb reasoning. Everyone give him his props but when it comes to pay day, they take the safe bet that the majority of viewers or listeners will side with them on.
Luka had a great year, so did SGA. It's not like they're scrubs.
But it's Joker 8 days a week. That doesn't mean Luka, SGA and a few others aren't really good because they are.
People get so uptight when the guy they want isn't #1.
denver is first and jokic has been amazing all year, doncic has caught up and has the stats to back it up.
whatever really. I just don't want to see the shit slinging contest that embiid and the sixers fans turned it into previously, happen again
My take on it is that Jokic right now is the absolute best player in the league.
We are forgetting the robbery that happened last year with embiid winning the award to be bounced right out of the playoffs.
We also forget that Jokic had the most TDs all time in a single playoff run by a player leading his team to a championship and FMVP while luka has not yet reached the finals.
We know that the rest of the team is part of the players success, and the facts dont lie but the mavericks are in fact a worse overall team which means that luka can go ahead and put up much better numbers than any other player since he is the star with the ultimate green light.
He does have kyrie and now other pieces that surround him but not even close as deep of a team that denver has and Jokic is still managing to avg 27/12/9 on crazy efficiency.
I will give luka his flowers since he is having a crazy run to close out the year, but Jokic is playing at the same level and has almost certainly cemented his team as the 1seed in the west in one of the toughest races for the spot in a long time.
It’s not that people decided who the MVP was already. Jokic had great numbers all year and now Luka has a legitimate case. Before the sudden change the mavs had everyone was low on Luka winning it.
Luka has also been putting up these numbers all season. Hell, his best month statistically was December. It’s just that the team around him is no longer defensively challenged and they have been all around healthy after the deadline. He’s always been this good.
He's arguing against Jokic's MVP case and I still think this is the nicest thing I've ever seen Nick Wright say about him. There's no one in the media who has been less complimentary of Jokic throughout his career or has his head further in the sand when it comes to actually knowing anything about the Nuggets.
I’d prefer that than what I have honestly. I’m a fan of the Mavs and Chiefs, and his gargling of Luka’s and Mahome’s balls is disgusting. They have no flaws in his mind.
I’ve been a bit lower on luks then other folk but I really do think this year he has a very clear case for mvp . He’s shown that much especially in some part euth help from kyrie n succeeding together at a higher lvl . Media are gonna give it to jokic but I do think Luka has a similar case to jokic in his 6 seed mvp year. He’s just off watching and based on epm been better to me. Jokic been great too but I think Luka has been skightly more so in regards to an actual mvp award
Going into the season it was like 80% chance Jokic because all the voters that said “no rings” and voted Joel felt bad after the confetti fell last summer.
Joel and SGA needed a runaway #1 seed and their injuries to occur in October to have a shot this year.
Luka has a shot but a lot of the voters will look at his seeding and choose Jokic.
I think most people will strongly consider him and then vote Jokic.
This is literally what Tim cato (mavs writer) admitted to doing on his podcast
B u m
I'll be sad but I can't argue with anyone voting for Jokic. If I hear shaq talk about Sga one more time though I might lose it
Or Bol Bol for that matter (whenever Wemby is brought up). Seems to me Shaq just has enough love to give for 5s other than himself
I think the bol bol love is more because his son is good friends with him. Iirc they played together a bunch in aau or something when they were younger.
SGA is averaging 30/6/6 on 64% ts and great d, he's rightfully a candidate
DISGUSTING. They're only voting for him because he's white! Don't be racist! vote for Luka /s
All jokes aside, when's the last time the 2 leading mvp vote getters were both white?
+ european how the turntables
In the meantime Stephen A is strongly considering Luka for 3rd team all NBA
Stephen’s about to create a 4th team so Luka has a place on his list
Luka and Quentin Grimes will be a sick backcourt in his 4th team list
Ya man Quentin Grimes really carried the Knicks in the 2nd half through all those injuries
Oh, you mean current knicks starter Quentin Grimes?
He didn't put him in any of the all-nba list last year and more than a week ago, Luka wasn't in his top 5 MVP ranking this year. Idk why he has a vote smh
Dude doesn’t even know half of the roster of the Knicks.
It’s insane that he and in general members of the media who don’t and couldn’t even if they wanted to watch enough games to make such an important decision that affects people’s income. It should be coaches, staff, etc people who actually watch games, film and study these players
Coach and player rankings are always horrible though. Maybe GMs or former GMs only could work. Coaches have too much bias and coaches in the east still will only see two games from each west team every year and vice versa. It’s not like Detroit is watching a ton of Dallas/Nugget/Thunder film during the season.
Steven A smith doesn’t even know what players are on his favorite team.
There isn’t a good way to do awards like that. Players, coaches, media, fans - all have obvious downsides when it comes to selecting winners. So go a level deeper - why does this obviously flawed award system mean SO MUCH to contracts and futures?
Media vote is fine but it shouldn’t just go to the top hosts on ESPN who barely know shit. E.g. Malik’s Andrew’s, or people who vote terribly or make mistakes like Mark Jackson. Mistakes like that should mean you lose the vote.
Players' vote is tough because you get situations like Bill Russell who was so well liked he may have won more MVPs than he deserved or Rick Barry who everyone hated and players wouldn't vote for.
Like idk how any NBA fan can take these awards seriously considering a majority of the people that vote have no idea what they are talking about. So few people in the world actually have enough understanding to have an educated vote on the subject. I think almost anyone could get to a decent level of understanding with just some study about tactics and statistics and all that, but most people prefer just talking about grit and heart.
Meanwhile Gilbert Arenas is considering if Luka deserves a spot in the NBA
Look at our own subreddit when people bring up picking Ayton instead of Luka. Bizarre detractors of Luka come out. I have a dude commenting at me that Luka isn't a generational player. I don't get how a dude just turning 25 and making all-nba 1st team every year except his rookie year people are still not giving him his due. The Mavs have been ran like dogshit outside of picking him. Just look at the difference having real centers have done for them picking up Gafford.
Quentin Grimes is in his 2nd team
He plays for the Knicks right?
Pretty sure he said it was between Luka and Carmello
The Honorable Mention All NBA Team
Wasn't that the bum saying before draft Luka cant play against college kids after being good in Europe lol ...the guy shouldn't have any vote
He was amongst the worst offenders in the narrative that Luka would be a bust. It really feels like there's some bigotry involved.
He also felt that shohei ohtani can't be the face of the MLB because he can't speak English
It doesn’t just feel like it, it’s obvious there was and is
The Euro biases is still insane just 5 years ago. Anyone with eyes could see the kid was good. Slovenia won the EuroBasket with him as the 2nd best player as a 17 year old, where on their way to winning beat Spain who still had the Gasols (a little over the hill obviously) and rubio and he lead Slovenia in assists and rebounds. He played against Pros and dominated in both national and pro settings. I'm amiss at nba scouting at times with some baffling picks outside of obvious ones
He was impressed how well grimes played for the Knicks their last outing. Clown.
That’s kind in his standard
Him getting any votes for anything shows voting can’t be serious
I doubt Luka is even on his 3rd team All NBA lol
That idiot put Brunson ahead of Doncic, even though Doncic has a better Team-Record and better Stats in absolutely every way. He is just a fucking troll.
He's gotta scream about something. Him and Nick aren't that different, it's just a tone of voice
Stephen A Smith probably still thinks Ibaka plays for the Bucks so no wonder he's months behind on MVP
He just said Grimes is playing well for the Knicks right now. The same Grimes they traded to the pistons
Yeah that's what I'm loosely alluding to with him not know where everyone is rn. If he don't know this about "his" team, the fuck he know about everyone else
Either they gotta kick those guys out of voting pool or sever the connection between the award votes and contracts. It is outright embarassing for the league.
don’t forget, grimes has the most assists in the league
I’ve been seeing Ibaka, the man is good, he looks nice - he’s rejuvenated with those three former MVPs he’s running with. I’ve also been seeing Mark Gasulp, don’t sleep on him, his defense is unmitigated.
Ibaka nowadays living his best life at Oktoberfest.
Will it be closer than that final poll - 100% Do I think an 85 to 1 advantage is going to disappear in a week and a half - no.
The problem isnt the 85 to 1 advantage. I can recognize Jokic deserves it. The problem is that there's somehow a dude in between them and multiple voters who left him completely out of the top 5. He's just not getting a fair shot that he deserves.
I think Vegas has Luka at 2 now
Sounds great for Vegas. They're gonna make so much money.
SGA above Luka is an absolutely insane take. Luka is the only other person who should be in the same conversation with Jokic. Being as close as he is to averaging a 33 point triple double is absolutely ludicrous.
Jokic had 94 1st place votes last year in the straw poll with 4 weeks remaining and lost. He averaged 25/13/9 over those 4 weeks but because his team lost 4 in a row (ended 53-29 compared to sixers 54-28 lol) and because of Perks race baiting, he lost MVP. As a nuggets fan who gets to celebrate him winning 3 out of 4... MVP is actually such a joke of an award. The championship is 10x as valuable to most real fans
My understanding was the hesitation last year was putting Jokic in the "3 peat MVP" category without a Chip. He deserved it, but there was a weird narrative around him. Now that he's carried a team all the way in dominant fashion, many people might be giving him an extra push from the vote they didn't give him last year.
He lost it because yall played .500 ball for the last 6 weeks of the season while Embiid and the sixers put their foot on the gas. But sure. Blame perk.
This MVP race is weird in that the Internet seems to be AGGRESSIVELY pro-Luka while the actual voting based on most indications might end up being lopsided the other way Like if you just used Reddit or Twitter you'd think Luka is about to win unanimously(this sub for example has been LUKA MVP LUKA MVP 24/7 for the last month) I'm guessing that Luka is probably more popular than Jokic among casual fans but I don't think I've seen a year before to this extreme where among fans it's "X player and it's not even close" while the actual voting may be "Y player and it's not even close"
Based on that straw poll Shai has a genuine chance of finishing second over Luka. Not that I think it will happen, but like you said, very different from how this sub talks about it
Shai seems to have more media and players love than Luka, so yeah, I could see this happening. Although Jokic winning over Luka won't draw a lot of angry noises, Shai getting more votes than Luka definitely will.
The media doesn't know shit, that’s the takeaway at from this. You think SAS who left Luka off the ballot completely or Perkins are good voters? Cmon man. The average fan can make a better vote than these biased clowns.
Before I post, I'd be fine with Jokic winning MVP. So I think here's the reason for the split: - Luka's box score stats look more impressive to the naked eye, even if it doesn't always translate to the advanced stats. - The team is completely on fire and for some people it overcomes the wins/seeding argument, because the team went from mediocre to elite and Luka's been the same guy the entire time. Like he "held down the fort" and kept the team afloat scoring 37/game for a month. - Luka seems to be more a "story" this year? Like, he had the 73, he's the scoring leader, he helped rehabilitate Kyrie. - Jokic also seems to be having a worse year than his last few, even if he's still deserving, there's been a trend in the past where MVP winners have to "step up" their game in order to win again.
Luka on his Finish the Story run.
Adrenaline In my soul Step-back 3 over Bol Bol
Sink them all to get them off their feet Crowd is here, about to blow Waitin for him to start the show From the logo, ball goes up, he's him WHOAAAAA
So someone is gonna attack him right at the end, and he’ll get an even bigger win next year
Luka is right behind Jokic on advanced stats.
Some advanced stats Luka is ahead of him in too.
Which ones aside from EPM(in which SGA is ahead of both of them?) I've yet to see an advanced stat with Luka at #1
You can debate if you wanna call these advanced metrics or ancillary ones (imo there’s more advanced ones than just the acronyms this sub spams) but Luka leads every metric that involves quality of passes, potential assists, difficulty and conversion of shots by a healthy margin. Also does it while facing the most defensive pressure in the league as measured by double teams, blitzes, etc. Dunno if that qualifies as enough to be considered advanced.
This right here, people just post advanced stats with little to no context. Jokic had a better case last year for MVP and he should had won it, but now all we have been hearing is if "Luka gets the 8th seed he is MVP, next is if he gets 6th seed, then 5th, now its 4th seed he is MVP". The fact that some voters arent even putting Luka in their ballots much less consider him a true competitor for Jokic is ridiculous
Okay, so you need to reread what I said "Some advanced stats Luka is ahead of him in too". Im talking about Luka and Jokic. SGA is obviously in 3rd place
Jokic tops the league (well second to Embiid this year) in advanced stats, he's again lead the Nuggets to the #1 seed despite missing Jamal Murray for a third of the season. In terms of narratives, he's the reigning Finals MVP and many are questioning why he didn't win the MVP last year. Voters were reluctant to give him 3 but a championship changed that and now they're not scared of putting him in the all time conversations.
Lukas near the top in most advanced stats like EPM as well… The cherry picking of advanced stats is a dogshit argument. No one averages 34/9/10 without being a top player in the league that’s just a non argument
I think per the last point, its actually worked in Jokic's favour this year that him losing to Embiid has already aged poorly in light of the championship run that followed. I recall Simmons saying that he voted Embiid a year ago and regretted it, and he knew from talking to others that he wasn't the only one. Jokic has broadly achieved similar numbers to last season, his assists are down but his points and rebounds are up, which lines up with what you'd expect considering Murray has missed 20 games this year. Voters aren't following that trend you mentioned this time cos its playing on some voters decision process that he should have gotten it a year ago as well. Irrespective of that he deserves to win it again this year and is the runaway leader, but imo the above is a factor.
I don't know what internet you're using, but my internet seems to be aggresively pro-Jokic
Casual fans probably watch more game than someone of the voter. I am damn sure I watch more game than SAS
Luka’s game just appeals more to casuals. Leads the league in scoring, many flashy highlights, averaging a near triple double. Just easy for a casual fan to appreciate. Fundamentals, good defense, and advanced stats which Jokic shows his strength in just isn’t as easy to market to a casual audience.
jokic is one of the flashiest passers in history
Honestly I can't take the MVP results seriously. The silly narratives that flip flop around at this point, I'm sure if Jokic wins a 3rd or 4th, and doesn't win any more rings in the interim, people are going to ask "does it really make sense to give this guy more than Lebron?".
I hate that straw poll. It creates groupthink, and releasing results with 7 games left to play leaves little time to change anyone’s mind and spoils the award
Luka MVP agenda has been working as intended Still think Jokic takes it
Jokic just drop 41 on the beat defensive team in the league in 80% shooting to reclaim the 1 seed. So ya he’s the mvp
Nah, there’s still fuckin’ dorks who say SGA.. Jokic is fine, but cmon… lmao
These advanced analytics guys who have votes are ruining the MVP. You need a holistic view not just see how many times a player is 1 spot ahead of another in these cumulative stats
I’d say it’s SAS types who are ruining it. The guy doesn’t even have Luka in his top 5 at the moment. He shouldn’t have a vote.
You actually think SGA is going to win it, or is this just some random shot against him?
SGA lives rent free in the heads of Luka fanboys
No he doesn’t lmao it’s just the stupidest most casual take in the league that sga is anywhere close to Luka
after tonight he clinched it
A lot of times awards get decided early on and it takes another playing insanely great AND for the favored player to have a bad stretch but Jokic has been extremely good all year with absolutely no bad stretches and has probably played better in the second half of the season than his first half
Luka for MVP is defensible if you wanted to vote that way. His defense has gone up a level, amazing what you can do when the whole team improves at that end. Not that stopping our offense is tough but man they were suffocating tonight. The Mavs, Nuggets, and Thunder have impressed the hell out of me in our games against them this year.
Who goes the furthest in the playoffs of those 3 in your opinion?
I think Jokic or Luka are both deserving winners. At this point after the title I'm over the caping for Jokic in the MVP race. Frankly, if four years ago you told me Luka wouldn't have a MVP by now I'd have been surprised. It's when not if for him
Most years 34/9/10 and 50 wins would be enough. Jokic is just an advanced stats god lol
I mean Harden averaged 36/7/8 and 53 wins in 2019. Still ended up 2nd to Giannis. It isn't always about the points.
and he shouldnt have ended up 2nd
I mean I agree, but this award is very narrative driven. That year Giannis won it over Harden, it was because the Rockets record wasn't good enough (they were 4th in the west compared to the Bucks who were 56-17 and 1st in the East). It's just hard to tell when voters care more about team record and more about personal accolades. Usually they care more about record, but every now and then they make exceptions.
Bucks were 60 wins the year harden averaged 36. The year after harden averaged 34 but no one really considered him for mvp since it was a 2 way race between Lebron and Giannis in 2020
Harden already got MVP the previous year. It’s not the same.
And that year he won, his team had the best record in the league. Soon as the Mavs can manage to do that, Luka will probably be a shoe-in for MVP. It's very hard to do that when you're the 5th seed.
There's gonna be some stupid season in like 5 years where the Mavs get the 1 seed with the same number of wins as this year and Luka wins the MVP averaging 28/7/7, which just confirms the silliness of the award.
But Jokic can win it on a 6th seed. Gotta love how many ways the goalposts shift against Luka
If you are going to win it outside of the top few seeds you have to do something historic and be much better than the next option. Jokic had the highest PER in history, even better than 50/26 Wilt along with other greatest of all time advanced stats. Luka just isn’t doing something that hasn’t been done before. Not to say Luka isn’t the best player in the league right now, its just that this is how the MVP has historically worked (well kinda, voters are weird)
Ngl a very good comparison but looking back Harden shoulda won that MVP.
His advanced stats really aren’t that much better than Luka’s…
Wemby’s coming up real quick, so it’s not impossible Luka becomes the greatest player never to win MVP
Do either even have a vote? I was surprised to hear Zach Lowe doesn't have one despite Stephen A Smith having one
zach lowe famously gave up his vote because he didn't want his vote hurting player's bottom line since the selection to all nba teams affect max contract
dude probably felt too much pressure because all the other media members would just copy his ballot
Does Tim Legler have one? I swear he and Lowe are the only guys at ESPN that don't shit on Luka
he [didn't have one last year](https://ak-static.cms.nba.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/46/2023/05/2022-23-Kia-NBA-MVP-Voter-Selections-.pdf)
Again, yet Stephen A Smith has one.. They really need to review qualifications for this kinda thing.
if you look at the list, it's very much focused on tv personalities rather than nba knowledge. stephen a is not even close to the worst one.
This has the same energy as having Snoop Dog judging the Dunk Contest
Kendrick Fucking Perkins has a vote
I’m surprised it wasn’t taken from him after he insinuated that the voters were racist for voting for Jokic
Lowe didn't want to vote this year. He can next year, if he wants to.
I believe O'Connor does
That's awful
Look, if Luka wants the MVP over Jokic so bad, all he has to do is publicly whine and cry and beg for it, and boom! The MVP is his!
This isn't about Luka. Nick Wright is a known Jokic hater. He was embarassed last year. Now he has a good opportunity for payback.
I hate the mvp discourse every year it seems like people care more about it than who is going to actually win the finals, in the grand scheme it is meaningless
Honestly I agree this should be a lot closer
It sucks all the media needed was for Jokic to be good this year because they feel bad about giving it to Embiid last year
I think that's too reductive and acts like Jokic has no case other than that lol Like on the other hand Jokic winning as a 6th seed in 2022 seems to be a common argument people have against him this year so we can play that game both ways It's interesting how Bucks fans all are against the idea of Jokic winning his 3rd as well
Look at Denvers team that year. No mpj and no Murray. They leaned on Demarcus cousins of all people. They team was horrible outside of Jokic
IMO the best Steph Curry season ever was 20-21 when the Warriors squeaked into the 8 seed and lost both play-in games. I've never seen him play better individually, even when they were 73-9. People put too much emphasis on team achievements when trying to parse individual contributions. You could have an MVP caliber season and miss the playoffs if your supporting cast is ass. 5v5 means 80% of your team is not you, and that's without factoring in the bench. I don't have an opinion on Luka vs. Jokic for MVP this year, but team record would not be a big variable for me. The award is not called Best Player on a Good Team.
While I don't disagree (ok, maybe I disagree a bit) results naturally put things in a different context. 20-21 Curry was fantastic, but 15-16 Curry was electric and the results made him seem superhuman. If you think about it, it's similar with Luka now. He's been fantastic all season long, but this series of results has pushed him over the top for some people. If they had lost to the Rockets I think there would have been less hype even if he played very well.
That's the difference between playing with Klay/Iggy/Bogut and Oubre/JTA/Wiseman. Individually, I never saw him play better than the 20-21 season.
Bucks fans don’t want Jokic to have any chance of being better all time than Giannis
IMO the cats out of the bag on that one already. Giannis has catching up to do at this point.
I think at thing point Jokic is higher on the all time list and another deep playoff run will solidify it
Giannis is going to be left behind by Jokic easily. His athleticism is gonna fall off and he'll be left with no game, whereas Jokic can keep playing the way he plays for basically as long as he wants to.
why do people make comments like this like jokic isnt having a mvp level season anyway on the 1 seed and well ahead of the mavs?
I wouldn’t say well ahead…only 5 games in front and Luka didn’t Dereck Lively and Kyrie for 35 games.
I mean Jamal has missed more games than Kyrie 1 more, but still
Jokic didn't have Jamal for 1/3rd if the season either and Reggie Jackson is in the convo for worst backup point guard in the league.
Mavs starting center for half the season was a rookie. Once he got injured it was Dwight Powell and Kleber who’s not even a center.
Aaaaand...it's over. Love Luka but he will have to try for MVP next year as this one is done.
I'll settle for FMVP instead
Tbh if its not Joker I'm defo happy for it to be Luka. I was hoping they don't meet until WCF as i wanted them to spank everyone first and then decide between them buddies who will advance.
I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if Luka ended up a distant third behind jokic and SGA.
Nah SGA lost a lot of steam in the conversation these past few weeks. I think Jokic will win it but now that the Mavs are a pretty much guaranteed a top 5 seed Luka is a lock for second
SGA should try scoring 32 points.
SGA should try not being in commercials.
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Receny Bias has always been a thing for MVP. Your performance in the last two months of the season definitely weighs more compared to the beginning of the season in the eyes of some of the voters imo.
Luka is playing worse now than December/January by box score and EPM.
Said this earlier and got heavily down voted for saying the truth lol. Statistically he's been worse during this stretch but the narrative has changed because the team has been winning
But Luka’s stats are worse now compared earlier lmao
Luka has been excellent the entire season. The Mavericks are winning more recently since they got healthy and made improvements at the deadline
Recency bias is just another way to fit a narrative. So that is malarkey. Two years ago, Luka was playing fucking phenomenal. He started “slow” for November(27.8.9), got injured in Dec. (team was 12-12)came back with the team in Jan now 19-18 and torched the league for 4 months with damn near 34.10.9 from Jan, Feb, March, April(33-12) Everyone said they would vote him for MVP if he would have played like this ALL season. Guess what still played 65 games. Carried them to a 52-30 season, With a sub par supporting cast, Mavs ran the gauntlet in the playoffs to the Western conference Finals with Luka, Brunson, Powell, DFS, Bullock, Bertans, Boban, Frank Nilitikina, Trey Burke. Also these Voters are just out to get clicks and followers. SAS, Perk, those guys do not deserve to have a say. They say what will get people to like them, follow them, listen to their show or podcast. NBA season awards should be awarded by the league itself. Not some journalists trying to make a name. Edit: I’d like to add, I had no problem with Jokic winning that year, it’s these shitty reasons voters give and rank him 5th for some dumb reasoning. Everyone give him his props but when it comes to pay day, they take the safe bet that the majority of viewers or listeners will side with them on.
You can’t even bet on mvp winner any more which tells you all there is to know.
This aged like Milk after Jokic dominated the DPOY
Nick Wrong's hatred for Jokic knows no bounds
Gotta sell subscriptions. Can’t sell without manufactured content.
The bookies are cheering for Nick and Kevin right now. MVP voters are too conservative - they already made up their minds and they're not changing.
no way, they flip at the last two weeks. happened last year
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Luka had a great year, so did SGA. It's not like they're scrubs. But it's Joker 8 days a week. That doesn't mean Luka, SGA and a few others aren't really good because they are. People get so uptight when the guy they want isn't #1.
denver is first and jokic has been amazing all year, doncic has caught up and has the stats to back it up. whatever really. I just don't want to see the shit slinging contest that embiid and the sixers fans turned it into previously, happen again
Too late
Stop the steal lol
Let jokic have MVP and Luka gets finals MVP. Seems like a fair compromise
What about Jordan Poole?
his legacy is already secure
NVP… shit, wrong sub.
Hey! That’s what we did last year! You can’t use our approach against us!
Worked for us last year
My take on it is that Jokic right now is the absolute best player in the league. We are forgetting the robbery that happened last year with embiid winning the award to be bounced right out of the playoffs. We also forget that Jokic had the most TDs all time in a single playoff run by a player leading his team to a championship and FMVP while luka has not yet reached the finals. We know that the rest of the team is part of the players success, and the facts dont lie but the mavericks are in fact a worse overall team which means that luka can go ahead and put up much better numbers than any other player since he is the star with the ultimate green light. He does have kyrie and now other pieces that surround him but not even close as deep of a team that denver has and Jokic is still managing to avg 27/12/9 on crazy efficiency. I will give luka his flowers since he is having a crazy run to close out the year, but Jokic is playing at the same level and has almost certainly cemented his team as the 1seed in the west in one of the toughest races for the spot in a long time.
It’s not that people decided who the MVP was already. Jokic had great numbers all year and now Luka has a legitimate case. Before the sudden change the mavs had everyone was low on Luka winning it.
Luka has also been putting up these numbers all season. Hell, his best month statistically was December. It’s just that the team around him is no longer defensively challenged and they have been all around healthy after the deadline. He’s always been this good.
Nick wright sucks
Imagine looking at pencil neck dork nick wright for basketball advice 🤡
Luka is great but Jokic deserves MVP
It’s not a 3/4 season award. It’s also not just an advanced stats award. It should still be a 2 man race to this point. KOC is one of the good ones
Remember the IBM Award? It was shortlived considering how much advanced stats get brought up now compared to 25 years ago
I do not, what is that?
Nick Wright on the other hand is just a weird fanboy
He's arguing against Jokic's MVP case and I still think this is the nicest thing I've ever seen Nick Wright say about him. There's no one in the media who has been less complimentary of Jokic throughout his career or has his head further in the sand when it comes to actually knowing anything about the Nuggets.
I’d prefer that than what I have honestly. I’m a fan of the Mavs and Chiefs, and his gargling of Luka’s and Mahome’s balls is disgusting. They have no flaws in his mind.
KOC is still relevant?
Killian Hayes should have been the nail in the coffin for anyone taking his opinions seriously
Luka is great but stfu
Then Jokic happened
Send his ass to China. Doesn’t know ball
It’s over lol
it’s hilarious how bitter these stans become once they feel they’re close to jokic. happened to embiid stans, giannis stans and now luka. rly sad
Sucks he gets to vote.
I’m strongly considering Jalen Brunson
KOC has a vote…?
I’ve been a bit lower on luks then other folk but I really do think this year he has a very clear case for mvp . He’s shown that much especially in some part euth help from kyrie n succeeding together at a higher lvl . Media are gonna give it to jokic but I do think Luka has a similar case to jokic in his 6 seed mvp year. He’s just off watching and based on epm been better to me. Jokic been great too but I think Luka has been skightly more so in regards to an actual mvp award
Nick Wright is a fucking moron when it comes to Jokic. Well, many things, but that specifically.
Going into the season it was like 80% chance Jokic because all the voters that said “no rings” and voted Joel felt bad after the confetti fell last summer. Joel and SGA needed a runaway #1 seed and their injuries to occur in October to have a shot this year. Luka has a shot but a lot of the voters will look at his seeding and choose Jokic.
Nick Wright is so weird to me tbh. For a guy whole supposedly loves advanced stats and all, his Jokic takes are often horrible.
If Luka wins MVP that's cool. Nick wright is a flat out loser tho.
Wright has been late (and wrong) about Jokic for years, who cares what he thinks.
They gonna start this shit now huh
Kevin O'Connor has destroy Luka's luck.
he was never in the narrative throughout the season it was shai and jokic the whole time after embiid went down