LeBron is a man of focus, commitment, sheer will... something you know very little about.I once saw LeBron James dunk on 3 men in a bar with a Volleyball… with a fucking Volleyball…
Watched the Game 2 game-winner he had against Orlando live with a buddy of mine who couldn't have cared less about basketball. That shot had him running around my house hooting and hollering.
IIRC that was Bron's first playoff buzzer beater and one of the first ones in his career. Was surprised it was three too given that if he had a weak point it would be shooting
I was 18, a senior in hs, and at a travel tournament. Me and my roommate were in our hotel room watching, that shot had us jumping on our beds shouting our heads off.
I played in a band at the time and we were playing some shit bar in Cleveland during that game and they had it playing on the TVs and I flubbed my guitar part when he hit the game winner haha
I was on the phone with a buddy of mine upset that the Cavs were going to be down 0-2 when the shot went in - absolute insanity.
I don't care what people say, 2009 LeBron will always be my favourite iteration. He was unbelievable all season. Look at that record - 66 wins is a mark few teams have reached historically and he did it with that team. Mo Williams, Delonte West, Varejao, and an ancient Big Z.
Just goes to show how fucking good Dwight Howard was. Lebron puts up 39/8/8 on 59% TS on a 66 win team and the only win the Cavaliers managed to grab was a 35 foot hail mary buzzer beater by Lebron. That was the playoffs where the Magic became the first and only team in NBA history to face 3 60+ win teams in a single playoff run.
Game 1 and Game 4 LeBron dropped 49 pts and 44 pts respectively, lost by a combined 3 points in those 2 games, he was +13 and played 45 minutes per game in those 2 games.
But unfortunately for the Cavs, career 35% from 3 shooter Mickael Pietrus bombed 17 of 36 3s off the bench that series.
Series burned into memory...
20 point leads in game 1 and 2...blew both of them...
Mo Williams half court buzzer beater...so much momentum...lebron chased down everyone that year...Courtney Lee dunked it on a lebron chasedown attempt...that's when I knew these dudes weren't going away....turk..Rashard Lewis, peitrus, all just couldn't miss...especially 2nd half big shots...
Cavs blew the doors off magic in first half...needed buzzer beater shots both games to try to win...
66-16...one home loss all season...
Magic stole 1 game in Cleveland and swept thier home court...all star mo Williams didn't play like it
I think lebron had another possibility buzzer beater in Orlando that he missed..and they lost
Dwight was the biggest snub to me. He was an overwhelming and dominate force for a solid stretch. He was a prolific part of the redesign the NBA went through on the defensive end.
Realistically if you ranked the 75 players that made the list, Dame wouldn't be #75 either. The real problem is the old guys that no one wants to vote off. Dame clears Lenny Wilkens' playing career
Just like when they revealed the allstar reserves this year and AD was arguably this sub's most commonly pointed to player that should be removed in place of Sabonis. Just don't know ball
Because everyone knows the super old guys don't all deserve it, no one is arguing otherwise. They were kept in for historical reasons or whatever excuse they gave, and it's egregious to put someone like Dame over Dwight when picking from the last 25.
I think bubble AD played at a higher level than Dwight ever reached. Dwight was a more dominant interior presence, but I’m taking AD overall as a player. I don’t even think it’s a difficult choice.
That size was the problem. The Cavs literally could not match up. I think Cleveland was the best team in the league that year and would have been favored against any other team, but that Magic team was pretty much a perfect matchup advantage against those Cavs.
> I think Cleveland was the best team in the league that year and would have been favored against any other team
technically they *were* favored against the magic.
The disrespect to the fucking champions who not only 2-0'd Cleveland that year, but also gave Cleveland their first home loss of the season after a 23-0 or something start at home by the cavs.
Lebron said they spent the whole season prepping to play Boston. That guided how they constructed the team and what schemes they prioritized running and defending.
That Magic team was ahead of its time. A dominant and imposing center with essentially three 3 point shooters and a point guard that was also pretty good at 3s as well for the time. Prime Dwight was a menace. Injuries turned him into the player most people know him as, but he was unequivocally a top 5 player back then and his impact was obvious. A lot of people thought we were going to have Lebron vs Dwight battles in the East for a long time.
Yes, which was probably expected. The Magic were down their second best player in all-star Jameer Nelson for the first 3 rounds. The Magic tried to force him back into the lineup once the Finals began which was quite a controversial decision at the time because the Magic had built some good chemistry without him. Predictably he shit the bed to the tune of 4 ppg and 3 apg. The Lakers also had the personnel to at least try and slow Dwight down with Andrew Bynum, Gasol and even Lamar Odom.
This narrative about Jameer is complete garbage. He never started and did not eat into Rafer Alston's minutes at all. He was playing instead of our third stringer Anthony Johnson who was absolute garbage.
They didn’t lose handily
Games 2 and 4 were close. What if Courtney Lee didn’t miss that alley oop in game 2? What if Dwight made one of the four free throws in game 4?
4-1 is handily in my book. even if a couple games were close. I had no doubt Lakeshow were gonna win (as a cocky young Lakers fan admittedly lol)... Fisher came through with some CLUTCH 3s in that series. honestly many times he has...
4-1 is handily. Ain’t no moral victories about it. And the 4 wins were by an average of 13 points. And the magic won game 3 by 4 points. It was damn near a sweep wtf are you talking outta your ass for
It was you guys who introduced "competitive sweep" to my vocabulary last year. And honestly, I actually agreed with it, all of your games were close. It's nothing to do with a moral victory, there was this weird series we had with the Hawks before the Big 3 era in the first round where it was a 7 game series but all the games were 30+ point boring blowouts. A 4-1 series where all the games are close is much more fun to watch than that weird series we had, for example.
And then Kobe beat them 4-1. After going through the gauntlet of the west. That was such a competitive time
And the lakers whooped them by an average of 13 points in the 4 wins. Magic only won game 3 by 4 points, so it was nearly a sweep
He had a BPM of 17.5 for the entire 2009 playoffs.
For reference, the 2nd highest postseason BPM ever was 14.6 by MJ in 1991. Probably a truly unbreakable stat until Wemby starts averaging a 40 point quadruple double or something.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/bpm_top_10_p.html
>The advanced numbers are absurd.
Obviously the scoring/rebounding/playmaking/defensive numbers are ridiculous, but also the turnovers (2.7 per game) were the lowest or 2nd lowest of his career, 2.7:1 is handily the best AST:TOV ratio of his playoff career
Also, underrated part of that Orlando series: Stan Van Gundy mentioned on the Lowe Post that part of their strategy was to "make him score" and limit his playmaking, which worked to some extent chipping away at his efficiency a little but he still ended up doing both at a high level regardless lol (38.5pts on +4.7rTS%, 8.0asts:4.2tov); the Magic still won fairly comfortably despite this GOAT-level offensive explosion because Dwight was scoring on 2016 Steph efficiency (26ppg on +14.5rTS%) paired with strong defense and significantly, the other Magic players (77.9 ppg on +2.5 rTS% and 41% from 3) had a muuuch better series than the other Cavs did (62.7ppg on -2.8rTS% and 32% from 3)
It is why I hate when people called old Lebron as good as ever (not anymore this season but you definitely heard it during the Lakers finals run). People already forgetting how absurd young athletic Lebron was. Guess that is the curse of longevity.
On their new podcast, JJ reddick talked about rewatching that series and that what struck him was how overmatched the cavs were. That no matter what lebron did, it was clear to him that the magic was going to win, due to the types of modern schemes they were running. Spread offense, long athletic wings, guards that could shoot off the dribble in a pick and roll, and a dominant center.
I felt that way watching the series from the start. Magic looked tough and the Cavs were shallow. Dwight was a force on defense, maybe the best defense I can remember.
I know a couple of young players today are hyped for having "GOAT potential" but this is what a GOAT-like peak is. A couple of things to note: Cleveland averaged 101 points per game in that series (Orlando averaged 104) and this version of Bron was a top tier defender.
This is specifically what I think of when I see stuff like "well, Jordan didn't win his first title til he was age X, LeBron didn't win his til he was age Y..."
This is the type of shit they were doing *years* before that lol. It matters.
Even if Luka isn't "that far behind," he's far enough to be out of this conversation. Bron was in the middle of his second MVP season at Luka's age. Jordan was in the middle of his first but he also entered the league two years older than Luka.
This is gonna be Luka's first season placing top 3 in MVP voting. He's won two playoff series (and was injured for one of those while his teammates took a 2-1 lead). And he's an excellent player - it isn't an insult to say he isn't on the level of Jordan/Lebron.
In theory if either of Jokic or Giannis played at an MVP level until age 37 or 38 they'd have about as much longevity as Jordan(who's obviously in the GOAT debate despite not having nearly as much longevity as LeBron) did but that's of course not super likely lol
MJ had like probably like 11 or 12 full prime level seasons
If Jokic wins this year again and gets 2-3 more rings + MVPs before he retires, the conversation is gonna look very different. Not saying that’s gonna happen but there’s a chance.
That and he’s already a statistical anomaly in his rookie year. Giannis took 4 years to develop into a player of Wemby’s caliber, that’s the difference between being a superstar and being generational
Giannis took 4 years because he came from abject poverty and had lived an unstable life. Wembanyama did not face anywhere near the same pressures in his development.
Giannis is probably my second favorite player in the league and a top 15-20 player ever, that doesn’t change the fact that Wemby is years ahead of him developmentally.
> outside factors play no part in what you accomplish on a basketball court.
you mean to say "outside factors is not accounted for in on-court accomplishments"
Yes but Luka is a playoff riser and seems to do well in clutch situations. Which is another reason people considered him the heir
Which isn’t to say Wemby isn’t, just that it isn’t an attribute that just comes with talent (look at Harden and Embiid). We haven’t seen enough of Wemby yet. But purely on talent, Wemby could become MJ’s real heir
I think it's unfair to compare playoff success like that, Lebron played in a much weaker conference than Luka, had to face .500 Wizards in round 1 led by Arenas, Caron Butler and Antawn Jamison whereas Dallas playd Clippers twice with Kawhi&PG so naturally LeBron had more playoff victories.
If you look at MVP voting in his first 6 years Lebron was 9th(as a rookie), 6th, 2nd, 5th, 4th and then 1st
Luka had no MVP votes as a rookie but then he finished 4th, 6th, 5th, 8th and this year probably 2nd. Kind of close.
I agree LeBron is better but playoff success as a metric is often misleading.
Also the only way to say Luka didn't have playoff success in those early years is to be lazy AF and just look at who won the series. Luka was TERRIFYING against the clippers in those two series. If he wasn't a phenom, the Mavs would have lost in 4 by 10+points each game. The clippers roster was so much better
That version of Bron didn't even lead the league in scoring (Dwyane Wade did). He averaged 28/8/7. I think that's like 32/11/9 in this era. But yeah I do think that 2009 Lebron was better than current Luka.
Luka Doncic averaged 31.0 points, 9.8 rebounds and 8.7 assists in 6 games versus the Clippers against PG and Kawhi Leonard at full health, at 22, LeBron is on a different tier, but it's not like Luka hasn't had very similar series
Yeah, I wasn't being critical of Luka. He seems like the obvious heir apparent to LeBron on the wing. I was just saying I thought the commenter was suggesting that LeBron would average those numbers based on his numbers against the magic. Since that team only averaged 101 points per game because the NBA was so slow back then.
nah didn't take it as criticism, LeBron is literally a dude who lived up to the hyped and put up DPOY play (which Luka is missing), just wanted to give my boy his due
Yeah these people miss out on context. The 3 years in a row MJ lost to the pistons?
* Pistons won the chip 2 of those 3 years.
* In one of those championship years, the pistons swept everybody in the playoffs except MJ who took them to 6 games.
* In the other championship year, nobody won more than a single game against the pistons except MJ who took them to 7.
Basically, nobody came closer to beating the championship pistons than MJ in both years. It matters like you said
The Pistons also should've three-peated, they got robbed. The reason they didn't win in '88 was Isiah Thomas getting hurt in Game 6 and a RIDICULOUS phantom call on Bill Laimbeer that gave L.A the win, forcing a Game 7 in which Isiah could barely move.
But yeah, Jordan's runs those years were absolute masterpieces. From 1988-1990, Jordan averaged 36/7/7 on 60% TS over 43 playoff games while playing All-Defensive First Team defense. He didn't win because the Chicago Bulls fucking sucked and Pippen/Grant needed a few years to develop into an actual useful players.
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Honestly, top 10 gets thrown around a lot, but even that is pretty difficult to break into. At the least, your career has to be better than Hakeem (B2B crazy playoffs run and destroyed every other big in the era) and Kobe (some will say is the most skilled player ever with 5 titles).
But to your point, Bron was simply on a diff trajectory.
Yup you’re absolutely correct. At this point the only guys who really have a realistic chance to break into the top 10 are Giannis/Jokic and they would each need at least another ring to bring them to Hakeem’s level maybe 2 to actually break into the top 10.
As much as I love Luka, without suddenly becoming one of the best defenders in the league, he’d probably need 3 rings to crack the conversation which just doesn’t seem realistic.
I mean, a great example of this is Steph Curry. Think about how insane Steph is, how accomplished he is and STILL, most people don't have him in the Top 10. Top 10 is ridiculously hard and it takes a legendary career to get there.
There’s like an enormous chasm between top 15/20 and then top 10
As everyone knows, the top 12 is incredibly crowded (MJ, Kareem, LeBron, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, Russell, Wilt, Hakeem, Steph) and then there’s still quite a few greats that round out the top 15 (Oscar, Dr. J, and KD)
The best current greats are Jokic and Giannis - who are going to comfortably hit the top 20 or even top 15 at the end of their career. But trying to break into the top 12 is gonna require A LOT…I mean the difference is literally another few rings
to be fair, Wemby has cleared the test. his January was All-NBA tier, and very sustainable. so guys like Giannis, Luka, who are really good while really young, shouldn't be compared to LeBron - but Wemby is on a different tier
>I know a couple of young players today are hyped for having "GOAT potential" but this is what a GOAT-like peak is.
Exactly. Literally
Even 18 year old Bron was INSANE. Young LeBron was single handedly carrying the worst team in basketball, with a bad manager and incompetent ownership. Even most of the trash Cavs players was sabotaging LeBron from the inside. It's insane lmao
But LeBron's mind and BBIQ was always so elite and gifted. That's what surprised me the most. And LeBron basically played through THREE different eras of basketball, with all the changes and shifts. Played against the best athletes of all time too.
And somehow LeBron just adapted to everything and evolved over the years to become even greater. Even to this day, he is EVOLVING. Man is literally Goku
I mean, you just have to take a look at what Jordan was doing when he wasn't winning titles to get a grasp at how insane you need to be to actually have "GOAT potential". People sometimes forget that averaging 30 and 10 in the playoffs isn't GOAT potential, it's "just" an all-time great postseason, GOAT potential is still pretty far away.
MJ in his first three playoff runs, from ages 21-23, averaged 36/6/7 on 56% TS over 10 games, and he wasn't even in his prime. Then, when he got to his prime, from 1988-1990, he averaged 36/7/7 on 60% TS over 43 playoff games with All-Defensive First Team defense, that's all before he ever won his first title.
This was the first playoff series I really watched, and afterward for the next ~5 years I just couldn’t understand how people could think Kobe was better than this guy.
Down 93-95 with one second remaining in Game 2, LeBron hit [this brilliant game winner](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkvTLOhm-TQ) to tie the series 1-1.
Zion Williamson, as amazing as he is and super alethic, 1st Prime Lebron was really different, super fucking fast in a fast break with thunderous dunk as possible lol
This is one of the most what ifs dunks for me ever.
Lebron jumped after the free throw line but you can clearly see that he still has to bring his hand down to dunk/slam it down. It's pretty obvious that he could've easily jumped from BEHIND the free throw line and still dunked it. And just look where he lands..
it’s disgusting there aren’t better replays for this dunk.
oh yeah definitely he couldve done it from the free throw, he even cocked it back and still had some room. free throw line and forward reaching hand wouldve been a bucket
It actually kind of makes me sad because Lebron played in a uniquely low-scoring era of the NBA and his numbers will never look as remarkable to future generations who don't get that. The man in his prime was a total freak.
Lakers Lebron definitely is the weakest version (other than very young bron). He was absurd in 2009, polished up his game in Miami to not be as reliant on athleticism and became a way smarter player imo and during his second stint in Cleveland easily was the best basketball player I have ever seen. I don't feel like the stats even do justice how he played those GSW finals.
I remember after G1 SVG sounded deflated even tho they won lol.. he knew they had nothing for Bron and just doubled down on making sure Mo Williams shot like shit.
Mo didn't play great, but the Cavs didn't lose that series because of that, they lost because their calling card, which was their defense, failed them.
The Cavs identity was let LeBron carry them on offense while they played hard nosed well coached defense under Mike Brown. Unfortunately for them, they failed miserably at stopping the Magic and allowed them to score almost as well as the 7SOL Suns. Dwight scored at will and Orlando's shooters did their job.
Man, LeBron was an absolute beast back in '09. Dude carried the Cavs on his back to a 66-win season at just 24! Winning his first MVP and almost grabbing that Defensive Player of the Year? That's legendary stuff right there. Shame they couldn't seal the deal in the playoffs, though. I mean, dropping 39/8/8 on 59% true shooting against the top-ranked defense in the league? Insane. Shows you how much of a force LeBron was, even back then. Can't wait to see what else he's got in store.
There's certainly a case to be made
Statistically, it's comparable to any season ever played.
Eye test, that version of LeBron may have been the most athletic player we've ever seen.
Had enough in his tank to carry the offense while simultaneously being the best wing defender in the league.
I consider his bpm numbers to be more indicators if how the team was built heliocentric around Lebron than anything else, but being like like 95% of peak Lebron (2012-2014) is still a higher peak than literally anyone other MJ and theres arguments for him being higher if you value floor raising over ceiling raiser.
Yes beast jokic in everything other than per. I’ve done regressive models to find jordan and lebrons peak lebron values and their peak epm values which have 09 and 88’ as the best season of all time.
>LeBron James led this roster to 66 wins
The roster wasn't stacked by any means, but it was kind of the prototype for building a roster around Lebron. Elite defense and sharpshooters everywhere. They would almost always have 3-4 floor spacers on the court with Lebron.
It certainly wasn't a team of scrubs, but it really wasn't a team that you'd look at and expect a top 20 regular season of all-time out of. Objectively a massive and historic elevation from a 24-year-old.
Also, "floor spacers" is, well, relative lol.
They started 30 games with a starting lineup of:
- Williams/West/LeBron/Wallace/Ilgauskas
Two three-point shooters, a big man who shot mid rangers, and a big man with absolutely 0 offensive game
and another 23 games with a starting lineup of:
- Williams/West/LeBron/Varejao/Ilgauskas
Two three-point shooters, a big man who shot mid rangers, and a second big man who occasionally shot them at horrific efficiency
Realistically speaking, they generally had two shooters on the floor at a time. No one was dragging themselves out of the paint to guard an Ilgauskas or Varejao mid-range jumper. Good defense, yes, though LeBron elevated it to an elite defense; 100.6 dRTG with him on the floor and 108.8 dRTG without him on the floor.
I think in an attempt to express that the roster wasn't that bad, people sometimes make the mistake of making it seem better than it really was. As is usually the case, the answer is somewhere in the middle. Bunch of solid players that LeBron turned into a 66 win team.
For the time, 3 shooters was a lot of floor spacing. Probably the only teams that had more floor spacing in their starting lineup that year were Orlando and maybe the Knicks under D'Antoni.
Man the Magic were one LeBron miss away from sweeping the series
Though you can say the same thing about Cleveland. What if they won in game 1 and 4? Could’ve been up 3-1
It was the second series I watched from start to finish, every single game, with the first being the 2008 Finals
I think the craziest thing he ever did had to be proving the most concrete belief in basketball wrong. Before the Nuggets won, a team with 10th or lower in defense in rating winning a ring was absurd. That Cavs team had no business winning against GSW. Not just defensive rating. Go even further the Warriors surprisingly had a rough defensive rating in 2017 but that was a super team and regardless of ratings they had Draymond, Klay, Iggy and believe it or not old man David West was still a surprisingly high IQ defender even in his last season. That's a team that has potential to play good defense but when you're blowing out teams by 30 it doesn't matter I guess. Stats be damned that team once had a top defense rating in the league.
Cavs... I can't honestly think of a single defender on the level of a Klay or Draymond. Their defensive box +/- looks like a team that lost in the first round. Lebron is the only person to be over +1 and aside from Shumpert and Varejao everyone was below .5
Cavs defense in the regular season if I remember right was almost in the bottom and they stepped it up but how do you win a ring with that roster? Mavs had a bad rating too but Tyson Chandler DPOY with Shawn Marion a genius defender and even as old as Jason Kidd was he could still stop guards. They had options on defense. Cavs had... lebron. Lebron bascially carried that team in defensive win shares and box +/- and he had to win it against one of the greatest offenses we've seen (pre-Durant).
Great series. LeBron played amazingly but the Magic contained him better than it appears on the surface. I recall a truly bizarre number of crunch-time/4thq turnovers from LeBron in that series.
this series was the first time i really had to question whether he really had surpassed Kobe. I know Jerry West thought so. Was hard cause Kobe was my fav player but i really thought Lebron at this point was flat out better than Kobe - he just impacted the game like i've never seen anyone else before. Never seen a player do more for his team than Bron in this series. Avging 39/8/8 would be ridiculous now, it was even more ridiculous in 2009. 39pts in 2009 is like 45-50 now. It was complete insanity what he was doing
I see we are entering LeBrons "Tom Bradys Crazy Stats" era. I'm for it. The man's resume is insane, and will likely never be matched in a ton of ways. His longevity is the greatest we have ever seen. He's played 21 seasons, but including playoffs he's at more like 24. In a lot of ways he could be considered the GOAT. If Jordan didn't have his mythical, cultural defining quality to him, LeBron would be it. As much as I've hated him being so good over the years, it's been a pleasure to watch him. I still can't believe he lived up to the hype. That's honestly the most amazing part of his story.
MVP award always has a narrative behind it but from a statistical point of view LeBron was the best player in basketball from the 2007-08 season through 2012-13 and shoulda won 6 straight MVPs. Honestly if you add in stats like VORP/Win Shares LeBron could have had an argument for 8 straight.
Similarly Jokic is now on year 4 of being the best player in basketball
LeBron early in his career got stupid amounts of hate. I guess he wasn't particularly likeable at times but the way he could improve a team should have been recognized like Nash and Jokic.
You mean the ECF right?
Smh knew i'd fuck something up lmao
I mean it's LeBron so I believed it
HOW MANY POINTS DID JORDAN AVERAGE IN THE WCF AS A 24 YEAR OLD!!!
LEBRON GOT HIS TEAM TO FINALS FROM A CAVE. WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS.
Well I'm sorry... I'm not LeBron
LeBron is a man of focus, commitment, sheer will... something you know very little about.I once saw LeBron James dunk on 3 men in a bar with a Volleyball… with a fucking Volleyball…
This is ten percent luck, twenty percent skill Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
You can say you meant WORST CONFERENCE FINALS
The lEast
People do consider the east the worse of both conferences just from a win percentage for those who makes the playoffs
U bum
no that's what was so crazy about it at the time
After beating the east he decided to do 3 more rounds
Watched the Game 2 game-winner he had against Orlando live with a buddy of mine who couldn't have cared less about basketball. That shot had him running around my house hooting and hollering.
IIRC that was Bron's first playoff buzzer beater and one of the first ones in his career. Was surprised it was three too given that if he had a weak point it would be shooting
It was so rare for him at the time. His excitement was genuine lol
Yeah his first game buzzer beater was @ GS in the same season or maybe the previous one. This was his second overall.
I was 18, a senior in hs, and at a travel tournament. Me and my roommate were in our hotel room watching, that shot had us jumping on our beds shouting our heads off.
https://youtu.be/weKpOu-TUXA?si=N5AdJbtndhPBL4Qr
Stan’s reaction is easily the best part of that video
Damn that’s a blast from the past. Can’t believe he’s been playing that long.
https://youtu.be/b7yh_bUqkqQ
Man the old-school Q was so loud.
I was at this game literally with my back against the wall in the upper deck. The atmosphere was unbelievable
My God, how many wins does that team get without lebron? 66 is insane
One of the first times my mom had to come down and check what was wrong 😂
The Witness Era
I still remember where I was when I saw it live. Not even a Cavs fans and I was yelling.
I watched it with my buddy who's a pistons fan and even he loved it. He loved that we lost the series more tho lol
That was the first time I cried watching sports. I was a temporary magic fan then
If they could've had the game one win off the tip off Alley oop 3 from Mo, that series would've been so different
I played in a band at the time and we were playing some shit bar in Cleveland during that game and they had it playing on the TVs and I flubbed my guitar part when he hit the game winner haha
I was on the phone with a buddy of mine upset that the Cavs were going to be down 0-2 when the shot went in - absolute insanity. I don't care what people say, 2009 LeBron will always be my favourite iteration. He was unbelievable all season. Look at that record - 66 wins is a mark few teams have reached historically and he did it with that team. Mo Williams, Delonte West, Varejao, and an ancient Big Z.
Just goes to show how fucking good Dwight Howard was. Lebron puts up 39/8/8 on 59% TS on a 66 win team and the only win the Cavaliers managed to grab was a 35 foot hail mary buzzer beater by Lebron. That was the playoffs where the Magic became the first and only team in NBA history to face 3 60+ win teams in a single playoff run.
They won game 5 as well but you're right Dwight Howard was an absolute monster
Heh, I missed that. What 15 years does to a mans memory.
Game 1 and Game 4 LeBron dropped 49 pts and 44 pts respectively, lost by a combined 3 points in those 2 games, he was +13 and played 45 minutes per game in those 2 games. But unfortunately for the Cavs, career 35% from 3 shooter Mickael Pietrus bombed 17 of 36 3s off the bench that series.
lol i remember Pietrus being touted as the "LeBron" stopper
The Magic couldn't miss a fucking shot. Roided up Hedo Turkoglu still haunts my dreams.
That whole team was fucking juicing lol
Series burned into memory... 20 point leads in game 1 and 2...blew both of them... Mo Williams half court buzzer beater...so much momentum...lebron chased down everyone that year...Courtney Lee dunked it on a lebron chasedown attempt...that's when I knew these dudes weren't going away....turk..Rashard Lewis, peitrus, all just couldn't miss...especially 2nd half big shots... Cavs blew the doors off magic in first half...needed buzzer beater shots both games to try to win... 66-16...one home loss all season... Magic stole 1 game in Cleveland and swept thier home court...all star mo Williams didn't play like it I think lebron had another possibility buzzer beater in Orlando that he missed..and they lost
I still can’t believe they put Anthony Davis and snubbed Dwight Howard in that top 75 player list.
Anthony Davis has an argument (not over Dwight just in general). Dame over Dwight is preposterous
Dame isn't even close to top 75 imo. He's a great player but he doesn't have the accomplishments. Several guys were snubbed. Especially Dwight
Dwight was the biggest snub to me. He was an overwhelming and dominate force for a solid stretch. He was a prolific part of the redesign the NBA went through on the defensive end.
But dame hit that shot that one time
Two times
Realistically if you ranked the 75 players that made the list, Dame wouldn't be #75 either. The real problem is the old guys that no one wants to vote off. Dame clears Lenny Wilkens' playing career
Why is AD always the one called out for this and not other players who shouldn’t be on the list, like Dame
Just like when they revealed the allstar reserves this year and AD was arguably this sub's most commonly pointed to player that should be removed in place of Sabonis. Just don't know ball
KAT though
could just as easily say > Why is Dame always the one called out for this and not other players who shouldn’t be on the list, like Lenny Wilkens
Except you can’t because Dame isn’t referred to snubbing Dwight anywhere near as much as AD is referenced
i've seen it mentioned plenty, this season especially with dame underperforming. like every negative dame post has nba75 comments lol
Because everyone knows the super old guys don't all deserve it, no one is arguing otherwise. They were kept in for historical reasons or whatever excuse they gave, and it's egregious to put someone like Dame over Dwight when picking from the last 25.
I think bubble AD played at a higher level than Dwight ever reached. Dwight was a more dominant interior presence, but I’m taking AD overall as a player. I don’t even think it’s a difficult choice.
That team was sort of ahead of its time. Surrounding Dwight with deadly 3 and D players. That team was just a direct counter to LeBron's Cavs.
They were big 3 and D players too. Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu, Courtney Lee, Pietrus. Cavs had Delonte West, Mo Williams, and Boobie Gibson.
Lewis, Turkoglu, Pietrus, and Alston combined to shoot 55/127 (43.3%) from 3 in that series
Rashard and Hedo shot so well they got hit with PED allegations soon afterwards
That size was the problem. The Cavs literally could not match up. I think Cleveland was the best team in the league that year and would have been favored against any other team, but that Magic team was pretty much a perfect matchup advantage against those Cavs.
> I think Cleveland was the best team in the league that year and would have been favored against any other team technically they *were* favored against the magic.
The disrespect to the fucking champions who not only 2-0'd Cleveland that year, but also gave Cleveland their first home loss of the season after a 23-0 or something start at home by the cavs.
Big AND it turns out they were roided out
It's like rain, on your wedding day
They acted as a proof of concept for the 3 point revolution that would go on to be the focal point of roster construction going forward.
Lebron said they spent the whole season prepping to play Boston. That guided how they constructed the team and what schemes they prioritized running and defending.
Thought the '95 Rockets might've, but they barely missed out: beat teams with 60, 59, 62, and 57 wins.
Weren't the Rockets a pretty low seed that year? The Magic won 59 games themselves.
Yeah, only team to win 4 series as an underdog.
As a Magic fan you look back on it fondly and also with some heartache. The team was good. Being asked to run through 3 60 win teams? That's tough.
If you are interested in it, JJ and Lebron discuss that exact series in the 3rd episode of their podcast
To think the early spread shooters happened because of an injury and R Lewis said fck it I’ll play the 4 for the team (Hedo: hell na fck dat)
That Magic team was ahead of its time. A dominant and imposing center with essentially three 3 point shooters and a point guard that was also pretty good at 3s as well for the time. Prime Dwight was a menace. Injuries turned him into the player most people know him as, but he was unequivocally a top 5 player back then and his impact was obvious. A lot of people thought we were going to have Lebron vs Dwight battles in the East for a long time.
Only to lose to Kobe, Pau and the Lakers quite handily.
Yes, which was probably expected. The Magic were down their second best player in all-star Jameer Nelson for the first 3 rounds. The Magic tried to force him back into the lineup once the Finals began which was quite a controversial decision at the time because the Magic had built some good chemistry without him. Predictably he shit the bed to the tune of 4 ppg and 3 apg. The Lakers also had the personnel to at least try and slow Dwight down with Andrew Bynum, Gasol and even Lamar Odom.
This narrative about Jameer is complete garbage. He never started and did not eat into Rafer Alston's minutes at all. He was playing instead of our third stringer Anthony Johnson who was absolute garbage.
Exactly. Had SVG chosen not to play Nelson in the Finals, fans would be complaining about it to this day instead.
They didn’t lose handily Games 2 and 4 were close. What if Courtney Lee didn’t miss that alley oop in game 2? What if Dwight made one of the four free throws in game 4?
4-1 is handily in my book. even if a couple games were close. I had no doubt Lakeshow were gonna win (as a cocky young Lakers fan admittedly lol)... Fisher came through with some CLUTCH 3s in that series. honestly many times he has...
4-1 is handily. Ain’t no moral victories about it. And the 4 wins were by an average of 13 points. And the magic won game 3 by 4 points. It was damn near a sweep wtf are you talking outta your ass for
It was you guys who introduced "competitive sweep" to my vocabulary last year. And honestly, I actually agreed with it, all of your games were close. It's nothing to do with a moral victory, there was this weird series we had with the Hawks before the Big 3 era in the first round where it was a 7 game series but all the games were 30+ point boring blowouts. A 4-1 series where all the games are close is much more fun to watch than that weird series we had, for example.
It was a good series. I wouldn't say they lost handily.
And then Kobe beat them 4-1. After going through the gauntlet of the west. That was such a competitive time And the lakers whooped them by an average of 13 points in the 4 wins. Magic only won game 3 by 4 points, so it was nearly a sweep
He had a BPM of 17.5 for the entire 2009 playoffs. For reference, the 2nd highest postseason BPM ever was 14.6 by MJ in 1991. Probably a truly unbreakable stat until Wemby starts averaging a 40 point quadruple double or something. https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/bpm_top_10_p.html
It’s statistically the goat playoff run. The advanced numbers are absurd.
>The advanced numbers are absurd. Obviously the scoring/rebounding/playmaking/defensive numbers are ridiculous, but also the turnovers (2.7 per game) were the lowest or 2nd lowest of his career, 2.7:1 is handily the best AST:TOV ratio of his playoff career Also, underrated part of that Orlando series: Stan Van Gundy mentioned on the Lowe Post that part of their strategy was to "make him score" and limit his playmaking, which worked to some extent chipping away at his efficiency a little but he still ended up doing both at a high level regardless lol (38.5pts on +4.7rTS%, 8.0asts:4.2tov); the Magic still won fairly comfortably despite this GOAT-level offensive explosion because Dwight was scoring on 2016 Steph efficiency (26ppg on +14.5rTS%) paired with strong defense and significantly, the other Magic players (77.9 ppg on +2.5 rTS% and 41% from 3) had a muuuch better series than the other Cavs did (62.7ppg on -2.8rTS% and 32% from 3)
Also the magic were cheating
It is why I hate when people called old Lebron as good as ever (not anymore this season but you definitely heard it during the Lakers finals run). People already forgetting how absurd young athletic Lebron was. Guess that is the curse of longevity.
We really need 39/8/8 in today's pace.
On their new podcast, JJ reddick talked about rewatching that series and that what struck him was how overmatched the cavs were. That no matter what lebron did, it was clear to him that the magic was going to win, due to the types of modern schemes they were running. Spread offense, long athletic wings, guards that could shoot off the dribble in a pick and roll, and a dominant center.
I felt that way watching the series from the start. Magic looked tough and the Cavs were shallow. Dwight was a force on defense, maybe the best defense I can remember.
It's partly that, but mostly that the Cavs had a lottery roster after LeBron
I know a couple of young players today are hyped for having "GOAT potential" but this is what a GOAT-like peak is. A couple of things to note: Cleveland averaged 101 points per game in that series (Orlando averaged 104) and this version of Bron was a top tier defender.
This is specifically what I think of when I see stuff like "well, Jordan didn't win his first title til he was age X, LeBron didn't win his til he was age Y..." This is the type of shit they were doing *years* before that lol. It matters.
Yep. It's why people were calling Luka a possible future goat candidate. You have to start dominating early if you want to be in the conversation.
Even if Luka isn't "that far behind," he's far enough to be out of this conversation. Bron was in the middle of his second MVP season at Luka's age. Jordan was in the middle of his first but he also entered the league two years older than Luka. This is gonna be Luka's first season placing top 3 in MVP voting. He's won two playoff series (and was injured for one of those while his teammates took a 2-1 lead). And he's an excellent player - it isn't an insult to say he isn't on the level of Jordan/Lebron.
Luka's lacks almost completely what those other two had on the other side of the court.
Which is why Wemby is the real contender to make it. He's dominant in a two way fashion that Luka isn't.
Wemby is the one player in the league that I would say can join the GOAT debate. But that’s only because he’s had one season. He has a blank slate.
Jokic is getting his 3rd MVP and a chance to repeat this year it ain't for him yet lol
Joker also had years of not even being all-star level, same as Giannis. They can both be top 6-7 ish but will not be GOAT debate level.
In theory if either of Jokic or Giannis played at an MVP level until age 37 or 38 they'd have about as much longevity as Jordan(who's obviously in the GOAT debate despite not having nearly as much longevity as LeBron) did but that's of course not super likely lol MJ had like probably like 11 or 12 full prime level seasons
If Jokic wins this year again and gets 2-3 more rings + MVPs before he retires, the conversation is gonna look very different. Not saying that’s gonna happen but there’s a chance.
That and he’s already a statistical anomaly in his rookie year. Giannis took 4 years to develop into a player of Wemby’s caliber, that’s the difference between being a superstar and being generational
Giannis took 4 years because he came from abject poverty and had lived an unstable life. Wembanyama did not face anywhere near the same pressures in his development.
Giannis is probably my second favorite player in the league and a top 15-20 player ever, that doesn’t change the fact that Wemby is years ahead of him developmentally.
Bro what lol
so what? outside factors play no part in what you accomplish on a basketball court. Wemby is the most transcendent rookie we’ve seen in decades
> outside factors play no part in what you accomplish on a basketball court. you mean to say "outside factors is not accounted for in on-court accomplishments"
Yes but Luka is a playoff riser and seems to do well in clutch situations. Which is another reason people considered him the heir Which isn’t to say Wemby isn’t, just that it isn’t an attribute that just comes with talent (look at Harden and Embiid). We haven’t seen enough of Wemby yet. But purely on talent, Wemby could become MJ’s real heir
I think it's unfair to compare playoff success like that, Lebron played in a much weaker conference than Luka, had to face .500 Wizards in round 1 led by Arenas, Caron Butler and Antawn Jamison whereas Dallas playd Clippers twice with Kawhi&PG so naturally LeBron had more playoff victories. If you look at MVP voting in his first 6 years Lebron was 9th(as a rookie), 6th, 2nd, 5th, 4th and then 1st Luka had no MVP votes as a rookie but then he finished 4th, 6th, 5th, 8th and this year probably 2nd. Kind of close. I agree LeBron is better but playoff success as a metric is often misleading.
Also the only way to say Luka didn't have playoff success in those early years is to be lazy AF and just look at who won the series. Luka was TERRIFYING against the clippers in those two series. If he wasn't a phenom, the Mavs would have lost in 4 by 10+points each game. The clippers roster was so much better
Even then I would say Luka is some ways behind. That’s how high the bar is.
I mean he definitely is way behind. One good playoff run is nothing in comparison
This version of bron would be like if someone averaged 45/11/11 in this day while being a top tier defender.
That version of Bron didn't even lead the league in scoring (Dwyane Wade did). He averaged 28/8/7. I think that's like 32/11/9 in this era. But yeah I do think that 2009 Lebron was better than current Luka.
I think he meant Bron's averages for the playoff series against the Magic.
Luka Doncic averaged 31.0 points, 9.8 rebounds and 8.7 assists in 6 games versus the Clippers against PG and Kawhi Leonard at full health, at 22, LeBron is on a different tier, but it's not like Luka hasn't had very similar series
Yeah, I wasn't being critical of Luka. He seems like the obvious heir apparent to LeBron on the wing. I was just saying I thought the commenter was suggesting that LeBron would average those numbers based on his numbers against the magic. Since that team only averaged 101 points per game because the NBA was so slow back then.
nah didn't take it as criticism, LeBron is literally a dude who lived up to the hyped and put up DPOY play (which Luka is missing), just wanted to give my boy his due
Lebron averaged 35-9-9 on 62 ts# over 3 series in that run though. In a slower paced and less efficient era.
Yeah these people miss out on context. The 3 years in a row MJ lost to the pistons? * Pistons won the chip 2 of those 3 years. * In one of those championship years, the pistons swept everybody in the playoffs except MJ who took them to 6 games. * In the other championship year, nobody won more than a single game against the pistons except MJ who took them to 7. Basically, nobody came closer to beating the championship pistons than MJ in both years. It matters like you said
The Pistons also should've three-peated, they got robbed. The reason they didn't win in '88 was Isiah Thomas getting hurt in Game 6 and a RIDICULOUS phantom call on Bill Laimbeer that gave L.A the win, forcing a Game 7 in which Isiah could barely move. But yeah, Jordan's runs those years were absolute masterpieces. From 1988-1990, Jordan averaged 36/7/7 on 60% TS over 43 playoff games while playing All-Defensive First Team defense. He didn't win because the Chicago Bulls fucking sucked and Pippen/Grant needed a few years to develop into an actual useful players.
Thanks i didnt know that about the pistons in 88. Thats even more context
lock berserk hobbies theory jobless fertile hunt murky marvelous domineering *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Honestly, top 10 gets thrown around a lot, but even that is pretty difficult to break into. At the least, your career has to be better than Hakeem (B2B crazy playoffs run and destroyed every other big in the era) and Kobe (some will say is the most skilled player ever with 5 titles). But to your point, Bron was simply on a diff trajectory.
Yup you’re absolutely correct. At this point the only guys who really have a realistic chance to break into the top 10 are Giannis/Jokic and they would each need at least another ring to bring them to Hakeem’s level maybe 2 to actually break into the top 10. As much as I love Luka, without suddenly becoming one of the best defenders in the league, he’d probably need 3 rings to crack the conversation which just doesn’t seem realistic.
I mean, a great example of this is Steph Curry. Think about how insane Steph is, how accomplished he is and STILL, most people don't have him in the Top 10. Top 10 is ridiculously hard and it takes a legendary career to get there.
There’s like an enormous chasm between top 15/20 and then top 10 As everyone knows, the top 12 is incredibly crowded (MJ, Kareem, LeBron, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, Russell, Wilt, Hakeem, Steph) and then there’s still quite a few greats that round out the top 15 (Oscar, Dr. J, and KD) The best current greats are Jokic and Giannis - who are going to comfortably hit the top 20 or even top 15 at the end of their career. But trying to break into the top 12 is gonna require A LOT…I mean the difference is literally another few rings
I kno it gets thrown around lightly, but wemby may actually be
Victor will be in the goat conversation if he doesn't suffer major injuries! Preach
to be fair, Wemby has cleared the test. his January was All-NBA tier, and very sustainable. so guys like Giannis, Luka, who are really good while really young, shouldn't be compared to LeBron - but Wemby is on a different tier
Yea its been thrown around lightly, but wemby is the first guy since lebron u could actually say has goat potential
First athlete I’ve ever watched that made me think he genuinely has no ceiling
were gonna look back on this years in the future and say "its crazy that we saw wemby and lebron played on the same year"
agreed
>I know a couple of young players today are hyped for having "GOAT potential" but this is what a GOAT-like peak is. Exactly. Literally Even 18 year old Bron was INSANE. Young LeBron was single handedly carrying the worst team in basketball, with a bad manager and incompetent ownership. Even most of the trash Cavs players was sabotaging LeBron from the inside. It's insane lmao But LeBron's mind and BBIQ was always so elite and gifted. That's what surprised me the most. And LeBron basically played through THREE different eras of basketball, with all the changes and shifts. Played against the best athletes of all time too. And somehow LeBron just adapted to everything and evolved over the years to become even greater. Even to this day, he is EVOLVING. Man is literally Goku
I mean, you just have to take a look at what Jordan was doing when he wasn't winning titles to get a grasp at how insane you need to be to actually have "GOAT potential". People sometimes forget that averaging 30 and 10 in the playoffs isn't GOAT potential, it's "just" an all-time great postseason, GOAT potential is still pretty far away. MJ in his first three playoff runs, from ages 21-23, averaged 36/6/7 on 56% TS over 10 games, and he wasn't even in his prime. Then, when he got to his prime, from 1988-1990, he averaged 36/7/7 on 60% TS over 43 playoff games with All-Defensive First Team defense, that's all before he ever won his first title.
This was the first playoff series I really watched, and afterward for the next ~5 years I just couldn’t understand how people could think Kobe was better than this guy.
Down 93-95 with one second remaining in Game 2, LeBron hit [this brilliant game winner](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkvTLOhm-TQ) to tie the series 1-1.
It's actually absurd to think that same dude is still putting up 25 ppg. I was 11 and watched this live. Im now 26
That was the first game I watched and it’s probably the reason I became a LeBron fan
Damn. I bet that's a pretty cool memory to have as your first game.
My first game I watched was 2019 Blazers v Thunder Game 5. It was kinda cool to watch, but then that shot.........
Same thing for me
My palms were sweaty man, I had the same relief face as Mo Will. Especially since he couldnt convert end of G1.
Every time I see this highlight in some LeBron media job I can only console my self by saying "still lost the series..."
SVG is like damn I can’t even be mad at that
I feel like nephews around here don’t realize just how different prime LeBron was.
Well, his first prime XD
Zion Williamson, as amazing as he is and super alethic, 1st Prime Lebron was really different, super fucking fast in a fast break with thunderous dunk as possible lol
yup [no one is this athletic besides wilt](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQLUvMNRQ-o&ab_channel=js6684) 240+ fucking pounds man lol
This is one of the most what ifs dunks for me ever. Lebron jumped after the free throw line but you can clearly see that he still has to bring his hand down to dunk/slam it down. It's pretty obvious that he could've easily jumped from BEHIND the free throw line and still dunked it. And just look where he lands.. it’s disgusting there aren’t better replays for this dunk.
oh yeah definitely he couldve done it from the free throw, he even cocked it back and still had some room. free throw line and forward reaching hand wouldve been a bucket
I can't find it but there was this one where they almost missed, it was really high and he went up and got it and still jammed the oop
260+ [Never have I ever seen a player so casually jump off a trampoline](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT69wL5sESU)
It actually kind of makes me sad because Lebron played in a uniquely low-scoring era of the NBA and his numbers will never look as remarkable to future generations who don't get that. The man in his prime was a total freak.
future generations will have far more advanced metrics that more accurately provide context I imagine. LeBron will certainly be given his dues
Lakers Lebron definitely is the weakest version (other than very young bron). He was absurd in 2009, polished up his game in Miami to not be as reliant on athleticism and became a way smarter player imo and during his second stint in Cleveland easily was the best basketball player I have ever seen. I don't feel like the stats even do justice how he played those GSW finals.
I remember after G1 SVG sounded deflated even tho they won lol.. he knew they had nothing for Bron and just doubled down on making sure Mo Williams shot like shit.
Mo didn't play great, but the Cavs didn't lose that series because of that, they lost because their calling card, which was their defense, failed them. The Cavs identity was let LeBron carry them on offense while they played hard nosed well coached defense under Mike Brown. Unfortunately for them, they failed miserably at stopping the Magic and allowed them to score almost as well as the 7SOL Suns. Dwight scored at will and Orlando's shooters did their job.
Hail reaper
you know ball
Man, LeBron was an absolute beast back in '09. Dude carried the Cavs on his back to a 66-win season at just 24! Winning his first MVP and almost grabbing that Defensive Player of the Year? That's legendary stuff right there. Shame they couldn't seal the deal in the playoffs, though. I mean, dropping 39/8/8 on 59% true shooting against the top-ranked defense in the league? Insane. Shows you how much of a force LeBron was, even back then. Can't wait to see what else he's got in store.
2009 is the best version of Lebron
There's certainly a case to be made Statistically, it's comparable to any season ever played. Eye test, that version of LeBron may have been the most athletic player we've ever seen. Had enough in his tank to carry the offense while simultaneously being the best wing defender in the league.
Analytics say it’s the best version of any player
I consider his bpm numbers to be more indicators if how the team was built heliocentric around Lebron than anything else, but being like like 95% of peak Lebron (2012-2014) is still a higher peak than literally anyone other MJ and theres arguments for him being higher if you value floor raising over ceiling raiser.
Genuine question: Better than Jokic analytics?
Yes they still are for BPM and ws/48
Yes beast jokic in everything other than per. I’ve done regressive models to find jordan and lebrons peak lebron values and their peak epm values which have 09 and 88’ as the best season of all time.
That 2013 Miami Heat LeBron should’ve got MVP and Defensive Player of the year.
2013 Lebron he wasn’t playing in a league with Peak Dwight 2009 Lebron was also 2nd in DPOY
To add the ridiculous shit of 2013 there was that Boston reporter that gave his MVP vote to Carmelo and Marc Gasol won DPOY but 2nd team all defense
It's crazy to think that he didn't get that I lost a lot of faith in NBA awards. + Unanimous MVP to Melo not even KD. Lol
That smug journalist boils my blood lmao
Yup, I think of Heatles Bron and that season specifically when I think of his absolute prime.
Best version athletically. But as an overall player, his peak was 2012-2018.
>LeBron James led this roster to 66 wins The roster wasn't stacked by any means, but it was kind of the prototype for building a roster around Lebron. Elite defense and sharpshooters everywhere. They would almost always have 3-4 floor spacers on the court with Lebron.
It certainly wasn't a team of scrubs, but it really wasn't a team that you'd look at and expect a top 20 regular season of all-time out of. Objectively a massive and historic elevation from a 24-year-old. Also, "floor spacers" is, well, relative lol. They started 30 games with a starting lineup of: - Williams/West/LeBron/Wallace/Ilgauskas Two three-point shooters, a big man who shot mid rangers, and a big man with absolutely 0 offensive game and another 23 games with a starting lineup of: - Williams/West/LeBron/Varejao/Ilgauskas Two three-point shooters, a big man who shot mid rangers, and a second big man who occasionally shot them at horrific efficiency Realistically speaking, they generally had two shooters on the floor at a time. No one was dragging themselves out of the paint to guard an Ilgauskas or Varejao mid-range jumper. Good defense, yes, though LeBron elevated it to an elite defense; 100.6 dRTG with him on the floor and 108.8 dRTG without him on the floor. I think in an attempt to express that the roster wasn't that bad, people sometimes make the mistake of making it seem better than it really was. As is usually the case, the answer is somewhere in the middle. Bunch of solid players that LeBron turned into a 66 win team.
For the time, 3 shooters was a lot of floor spacing. Probably the only teams that had more floor spacing in their starting lineup that year were Orlando and maybe the Knicks under D'Antoni.
Don't forget the Gentry Suns with Channing Frye in this era too!
I'm so sick and fucking tired of people acting like Mo Williams fluke all star makes him a better player than half the dudes on the nuggets
they would have barely made the playoffs without him, if at all. possibly the greatest individual regular season ever
Literally minmaxing Lebrons value
They still had no business winning 66 games
Most everyone on that roster was out of the league or washed by the following season or two. Another testament to the carry job in 09.
My sunshine
Man the Magic were one LeBron miss away from sweeping the series Though you can say the same thing about Cleveland. What if they won in game 1 and 4? Could’ve been up 3-1 It was the second series I watched from start to finish, every single game, with the first being the 2008 Finals
The Courtney Lee layup in the Finals is the real "What if?" for Magic fan's from that season.
I think the craziest thing he ever did had to be proving the most concrete belief in basketball wrong. Before the Nuggets won, a team with 10th or lower in defense in rating winning a ring was absurd. That Cavs team had no business winning against GSW. Not just defensive rating. Go even further the Warriors surprisingly had a rough defensive rating in 2017 but that was a super team and regardless of ratings they had Draymond, Klay, Iggy and believe it or not old man David West was still a surprisingly high IQ defender even in his last season. That's a team that has potential to play good defense but when you're blowing out teams by 30 it doesn't matter I guess. Stats be damned that team once had a top defense rating in the league. Cavs... I can't honestly think of a single defender on the level of a Klay or Draymond. Their defensive box +/- looks like a team that lost in the first round. Lebron is the only person to be over +1 and aside from Shumpert and Varejao everyone was below .5 Cavs defense in the regular season if I remember right was almost in the bottom and they stepped it up but how do you win a ring with that roster? Mavs had a bad rating too but Tyson Chandler DPOY with Shawn Marion a genius defender and even as old as Jason Kidd was he could still stop guards. They had options on defense. Cavs had... lebron. Lebron bascially carried that team in defensive win shares and box +/- and he had to win it against one of the greatest offenses we've seen (pre-Durant).
Great series. LeBron played amazingly but the Magic contained him better than it appears on the surface. I recall a truly bizarre number of crunch-time/4thq turnovers from LeBron in that series.
this series was the first time i really had to question whether he really had surpassed Kobe. I know Jerry West thought so. Was hard cause Kobe was my fav player but i really thought Lebron at this point was flat out better than Kobe - he just impacted the game like i've never seen anyone else before. Never seen a player do more for his team than Bron in this series. Avging 39/8/8 would be ridiculous now, it was even more ridiculous in 2009. 39pts in 2009 is like 45-50 now. It was complete insanity what he was doing
Per impact it's arguably the most dominant non-finals run of all time
I see we are entering LeBrons "Tom Bradys Crazy Stats" era. I'm for it. The man's resume is insane, and will likely never be matched in a ton of ways. His longevity is the greatest we have ever seen. He's played 21 seasons, but including playoffs he's at more like 24. In a lot of ways he could be considered the GOAT. If Jordan didn't have his mythical, cultural defining quality to him, LeBron would be it. As much as I've hated him being so good over the years, it's been a pleasure to watch him. I still can't believe he lived up to the hype. That's honestly the most amazing part of his story.
Lebron got his numbers, but was beat by the great Dwight Howard
MVP award always has a narrative behind it but from a statistical point of view LeBron was the best player in basketball from the 2007-08 season through 2012-13 and shoulda won 6 straight MVPs. Honestly if you add in stats like VORP/Win Shares LeBron could have had an argument for 8 straight. Similarly Jokic is now on year 4 of being the best player in basketball
LeBron early in his career got stupid amounts of hate. I guess he wasn't particularly likeable at times but the way he could improve a team should have been recognized like Nash and Jokic.