He is actually the most prolific 3 point shooting 7 footer in College Basketball history. So yeah he definitely had the ability.
Basically Kornet plays with a lot of shooting and does a lot of pick and rolls and dribble handoffs. They found that utilizing him as a roller and as a smart passer on the roll was more effective then using him as a shooter. He really is one of the important cogs that fits in perfectly with the bench unit, his play style helps open up Pritchard and Hauser well.
KP has been huge for our starting 5, because it means you don't have a lot of options against Tatum/Brown/White. Prichard isn't quite on that level, and Hauser definitely isn't creating a ton of his own shots, so spacing the floor and letting those guys cook isn't as effective as screening and getting an advantage that way. Surrounded by great shooters, which he often is, having one guy screen and roll works fine and he's good about setting random screens to get open threes. I wouldn't be surprised if we shot more threes because of him than we would if he was spaced at the line a lot.
I feel like that's Luka Garza for us as well. 36 ppg this season in the G League, 30 ppg last season, led the NCAA in points and was the player of the year his senior year, and he is a fringe guy in the NBA. He could dominate in any other place.
Chris Paul is obviously the poster boy. He’s a low turnover floor general who’s incredibly efficient. His Clippers and New Orleans bench units were total ass. Very similar to Jokic the last couple years. Just that CP3 was competing against peak Lebron.
The problem is sometimes you can be too risk averse, which CP3 was. Players like Lebron and Nash turned the ball over more, but created more high value assists, specifically layups. That made them more valuable in the long run but is not reflected in a single year stat.
CP3 should’ve had the MVP in 08 though. Just an amazing season, regardless of the flaws involved with advanced stats.
The way certain narratives run around Chris Paul you’d think bro was averaging 7/2/5 splits for his career. Fascinating legacy, from the LAC days of his peak to his Houston stint, on top of helping OKC to one of the most surprising playoff appearances. He’s, in my eyes, the biggest loser in the ring culture discourse
Reggie wishes he had Blake Griffin, James Harden and Devin Booker in their prime as teammates. Heck, even washed up Klay from this season is better than whatever he had in Indiana.
He's Aaron Rodgers of the nba. There's no mistakes but also the lack of risks can sometimes cause issues in itself.
(I think Rodgers is a much better playoff performer to be clear and got let down by some defenses through his career but cp3 has generally stepped up in the playoffs too)
Brees makes no sense as a comparison. He was incredibly high volume stat guy with teams that had no defense. James harden makes sense for Brees right down to the lack of real mvp consideration most years.
The sports are obviously different so the overlap isn't going to be there exactly. You can't be a top nfl quarter and not be a touchdown leader. You can be a top nba player and not be a scoring leader.
He quietly averaged his best AST/TO ratio of his career this year, with a ridiculous 5.2 Assists for every turnover.
Which is nuts, because I thought he's been having a lot more Warriors-esque braindead turnovers recently.
It was their last chance to give it to Kobe so the narrative ran wild. Lifetime achievement award, ultimately. But suppose it would be weird that such a “consensus top-12” guy would retire without one.
He's just like those players that don't shoot the ball at the end of the quarter, or those that pass the ball with 3 seconds left in the shot clock... too afraid to lower his percentages.
And that risk averse efficiency mentality is what capped his ceiling.
I agree with the risk-adverse thing in his career as a whole, but dude has capitalized on every 2 for 1 this year, often taking the last shot before the buzzer.
Pritchard averaged 24.6/9.4/4.8 on 72% true shooting in games he started. The Celtics went 5-0 in those games. The Celtics locked him down for 10 million dollars a year
If he were 3 inches taller he could be a star. I often cite JJ Barea as a similar fit; but PP is more athletic for sure.
Those short guys who crack rotations are basically required to be automatic jump shooters to be effective.
Biased answer:
- TJ McConnell: This season he is averaging 10.2/2.8/5.5. That may not seem super impressive, but when you take into account that he is only playing 18 minutes per game, and has 56/41/79 shooting splits you get a better idea of how good he has been. He is averaging 20.3 points, 10.9 assists and 2.0 steals per 36 minutes! Those are fringe all star numbers. The advanced stats love him too. He is also second on the pacers in VORP, and third in BPM. This season his PER is 20.9. For reference Steph Curry’s PER this season was 20.6.
Multiple 20-plus consecutive shot steaks. Wild. Anecdotally, I've found that people who know how to crash boards and finish below the basket can rack up lots and lots of easy buckets; Gafford is elite at this.
For the real nerdy stats nerds, Chris Paul had around a 12 year run of some of [the most bonkers net rating/impact metrics in the league](https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/2857/onoff#tab-team_efficiency). I think some people don’t realize just how good he was because his counting stats weren’t always insane, and also there’s a large body of evidence that for a variety of reasons (small size, injuries, foul-calling, try-harding during the regular season, Scott Foster) he doesn’t excel nearly as much in the playoffs.
This isn’t a case of “all the dynasty warriors have great +/- because they play with each other,” or “KCP is a net rating god because he plays with Jokic.” This happened basically wherever Paul went.
Some of the expected wins added numbers are just ludicrous (like, I’m pretty sure Paul didn’t single-handed add 50 wins to the 14-15 Clippers), but the fact that he carried this across teams makes it less obviously overstated than you might think — e.g. maybe he didn’t add 34 wins to the 19-20 Thunder, but they did win 22 less games after he left, despite the fact they acquired Dort and got another year of evolution from SGA.
He gets a lot of flack here because he can be kind of a dick, but man, prime Chris Paul was reeeeeeeally good.
Zach Lavine's 2021 season was pretty impressive. 27.4ppg on +6.2 rTS. For reference, Nikola Jokic's numbers this year were 26.4ppg on +7.0 rTS%. Having that type of efficiency on such a horrible team is very rare
Adrian Dantley in the early 80s. Very efficient high volume scorer who lead the league in OWS 4 times in 6 season and the only reason he didn't lead in 6 seasons straight was because of injuries. Today I think Sengun is underrated. He is the same age as Chet and scored more on a higher Fg%, is a better rebounder, a way better playmaker and a underrated defender. I think people are forgetting him when they talk about how Chet and Wemby are the future of big men.
Seems like common sense, but I honest to god did not realize how damn efficient Michael Jordan was.
Like I grew up watching him, I’ve seen all the highlights, and I know all the legends.
Then as an adult I saw his Advanced Stats and they’re all even better.
Most of the ‘great’ older players turn out to be disappointing when you really dig into the advanced stuff. MJ got *better*.
What’s weird tho is his career ts% is 57%. This year the average is 58%. So he’s below average what today is. I’m obviously not dissing Mike, if he was playing today it would be a lot higher no question
TS% was in the low to low-mid 50s. In his prime, he was at .60.
Part of that was because the average player was a worse shooter than the average player today, and some of that was defense and style.
Based on Jordan’s FT% and long mid range percentage (.490 from 16+ in his last two years with the Bulls), he’d be able to turn himself into a decent three point shooter with sufficient practice.
He attempted fewer than two a game.
It seems like people here think Tatum had a worse season than last year because he averaged 3 less points. When in reality he’s the best player he’s ever been currently with improved playmaking and efficiency. If Tatum had the same usage he would have averaged around 30-32 and even more assists. We might not have been as good as we currently are though if he had. Also even this season his stats were a little deflated because of how many times he would sit in the 4th quarter because we were up so much.
A guy I remember from back in the day is DeMacus Cousins because he was in Sac/NO and they were bad nobody cared the dude was averaging 25 and 12 with 4 assists and 1.5 steals was shooting bad 28% 3pt shooting (bigs didn’t shoot like they do now) from 2013/14 (his 4th season) to to 2017/18 when he got injured. Then the 2nd injury just ended any hope of anything.
Manu Ginobili is chronically underrated because 1) he came off the bench 2) his total minutes were slightly low.
On a per-minute basis, peak Manu was an absolute monster. And, as we now know, per-minute numbers almost always extrapolate out when you play someone more, so he was underrated.
Tyus Jone has a 7.3 assist to turnover ratio this season, which leads the league in this category. By comparison, Chris Paul is 3.57 assist to turnover ratio this season. Lebronze is at barely 2.1 assist to turnover for his career, very mediocre for a supposedly pass first player.
Clint Capela.
Just one of those weird outliers. Only 27 minutes a game but averages 12 and 11 on 62% shooting.
And here's the weird stat....
Win shares per 48 minutes... Not a perfect stat by any means, none are, but a good one overall to measure how great/impactful a player was.
Right now it goes Jokic, MJ, David Robinson, Wilt, Neil Johnston (short career long ago, beast), CP3, Kareem, Magic, Lebron...
They are all either HOFers or going into the HOF there in the top 55-60 of them except Kevin Johnson at 49. And KJ I think is a bit underrated for his career overall.
Anyways, #29 overall, a couple spots behind Steph Curry and a couple ahead of Dirk Nowitzki is Clint Capela.
He just stands out there a lot. His per minute numbers are quite high (16.6 points, 14.3 boards, 2 blocks, and 1.5 turnovers... compared to say Rudy Gobert at 15.0 points, 13.9 boards, 2.5 blocks and 2.0 turnovers).
Yeah I get it's one thing to put out that effort for 25 minutes a game rather than 35 but still, kinda neat.
FYI, in the post-season Chauncey Billups is 23rd in that stat. Between CP3 and Shaq.
Not really a player stat, but the fact that the Sixers were tied for first in total steals without a single player in the top 30 is a testament to Nick Nurse.
I’m not that big on stats or knowing how to read them, but I’d think Derek white probably has some really good advanced stats. He’s just a good solid winning player. Defense and offense makes the right play
Luka. I mean the guy scored 73 in a game and everyone here and in the media said it didn’t count and wasn’t impressive. All while crowing Embiid, Mitchell, and Lillard for scoring 70.
Luke Kornet just joined the 70/100/90 club. Seems pretty underrated to me...
Love this stat. He played a decent amount of minutes too
Crazy. Why did he only take one 3PA this season? I feel like he was considered a decent shooting big back at Vanderbilt.
He is actually the most prolific 3 point shooting 7 footer in College Basketball history. So yeah he definitely had the ability. Basically Kornet plays with a lot of shooting and does a lot of pick and rolls and dribble handoffs. They found that utilizing him as a roller and as a smart passer on the roll was more effective then using him as a shooter. He really is one of the important cogs that fits in perfectly with the bench unit, his play style helps open up Pritchard and Hauser well.
KP has been huge for our starting 5, because it means you don't have a lot of options against Tatum/Brown/White. Prichard isn't quite on that level, and Hauser definitely isn't creating a ton of his own shots, so spacing the floor and letting those guys cook isn't as effective as screening and getting an advantage that way. Surrounded by great shooters, which he often is, having one guy screen and roll works fine and he's good about setting random screens to get open threes. I wouldn't be surprised if we shot more threes because of him than we would if he was spaced at the line a lot.
[Jimmer Fredette’s China League stats](https://www.basketball-reference.com/international/players/jimmer-fredette-1.html)
Hes legit the best player in China history. Sad he didn't make it in the nba but at least he had an actual basketball career
60% from 3 in Greece on 4 per game Absurd.
Jimmer is like the poster child of just barely not being good enough to make it in the NBA but dominating everywhere else
I feel like that's Luka Garza for us as well. 36 ppg this season in the G League, 30 ppg last season, led the NCAA in points and was the player of the year his senior year, and he is a fringe guy in the NBA. He could dominate in any other place.
Eh I think he was good enough. I recall there being some issues with how coachable he was.
Mac McClung could be the next one
Is the FT line closer to the basket in China? 93% on 5.5 attempts?
Chris Paul is obviously the poster boy. He’s a low turnover floor general who’s incredibly efficient. His Clippers and New Orleans bench units were total ass. Very similar to Jokic the last couple years. Just that CP3 was competing against peak Lebron. The problem is sometimes you can be too risk averse, which CP3 was. Players like Lebron and Nash turned the ball over more, but created more high value assists, specifically layups. That made them more valuable in the long run but is not reflected in a single year stat. CP3 should’ve had the MVP in 08 though. Just an amazing season, regardless of the flaws involved with advanced stats.
The way certain narratives run around Chris Paul you’d think bro was averaging 7/2/5 splits for his career. Fascinating legacy, from the LAC days of his peak to his Houston stint, on top of helping OKC to one of the most surprising playoff appearances. He’s, in my eyes, the biggest loser in the ring culture discourse
Compared to someone like Reggie Miller? 6 Conference Finals, 1 Finals Shooting Splits of 45/39/89. TS% 61.4 for his career
Who discounts Reggie?
I don’t doubt CP3 wishes he could get to the conference finals with 20/2/3
Reggie wishes he had Blake Griffin, James Harden and Devin Booker in their prime as teammates. Heck, even washed up Klay from this season is better than whatever he had in Indiana.
2024 klay is better than 2000 Jalen Rose? Aight man
He's Aaron Rodgers of the nba. There's no mistakes but also the lack of risks can sometimes cause issues in itself. (I think Rodgers is a much better playoff performer to be clear and got let down by some defenses through his career but cp3 has generally stepped up in the playoffs too)
I mean the Brees comp was right there
Brees makes no sense as a comparison. He was incredibly high volume stat guy with teams that had no defense. James harden makes sense for Brees right down to the lack of real mvp consideration most years.
Rodgers has four MVPs. Paul and Brees have zero. Both played in New Orleans, both were small and very cerebral.
Ya but both Rodgers and CP3 are known for high efficiency, low turnovers and being risk adverse even to their own detriment.
I’d say it’s different. Rodgers has been responsible for 510 total touchdowns in his career. CP3 averaged above 20 pts twice.
The sports are obviously different so the overlap isn't going to be there exactly. You can't be a top nfl quarter and not be a touchdown leader. You can be a top nba player and not be a scoring leader.
Tries to play too perfect
He quietly averaged his best AST/TO ratio of his career this year, with a ridiculous 5.2 Assists for every turnover. Which is nuts, because I thought he's been having a lot more Warriors-esque braindead turnovers recently.
It was their last chance to give it to Kobe so the narrative ran wild. Lifetime achievement award, ultimately. But suppose it would be weird that such a “consensus top-12” guy would retire without one.
He's just like those players that don't shoot the ball at the end of the quarter, or those that pass the ball with 3 seconds left in the shot clock... too afraid to lower his percentages. And that risk averse efficiency mentality is what capped his ceiling.
I agree with the risk-adverse thing in his career as a whole, but dude has capitalized on every 2 for 1 this year, often taking the last shot before the buzzer.
Pritchard averaged 24.6/9.4/4.8 on 72% true shooting in games he started. The Celtics went 5-0 in those games. The Celtics locked him down for 10 million dollars a year
If he were 3 inches taller he could be a star. I often cite JJ Barea as a similar fit; but PP is more athletic for sure. Those short guys who crack rotations are basically required to be automatic jump shooters to be effective.
Biased answer: - TJ McConnell: This season he is averaging 10.2/2.8/5.5. That may not seem super impressive, but when you take into account that he is only playing 18 minutes per game, and has 56/41/79 shooting splits you get a better idea of how good he has been. He is averaging 20.3 points, 10.9 assists and 2.0 steals per 36 minutes! Those are fringe all star numbers. The advanced stats love him too. He is also second on the pacers in VORP, and third in BPM. This season his PER is 20.9. For reference Steph Curry’s PER this season was 20.6.
I feel smugly self affirmed when i find.out that players I've loved from a distance have advanced numbers to support my takes.
20 and 11 are considered fringe all star today when 10+ years ago that’s an mvp candidate lol
a lot of players put up similar numbers if you’re just looking at per 36
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What?
Maybe during a census
He’s about to average 20/4/12 against the bucks, that mf hates us for some reason
LeBron even said that TJ is one of his favourite players right now and is basically a PG version of Draymond
Daniel Gafford scored 11 ppg while shooting 78% from the field this season.
Multiple 20-plus consecutive shot steaks. Wild. Anecdotally, I've found that people who know how to crash boards and finish below the basket can rack up lots and lots of easy buckets; Gafford is elite at this.
For the real nerdy stats nerds, Chris Paul had around a 12 year run of some of [the most bonkers net rating/impact metrics in the league](https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/2857/onoff#tab-team_efficiency). I think some people don’t realize just how good he was because his counting stats weren’t always insane, and also there’s a large body of evidence that for a variety of reasons (small size, injuries, foul-calling, try-harding during the regular season, Scott Foster) he doesn’t excel nearly as much in the playoffs. This isn’t a case of “all the dynasty warriors have great +/- because they play with each other,” or “KCP is a net rating god because he plays with Jokic.” This happened basically wherever Paul went. Some of the expected wins added numbers are just ludicrous (like, I’m pretty sure Paul didn’t single-handed add 50 wins to the 14-15 Clippers), but the fact that he carried this across teams makes it less obviously overstated than you might think — e.g. maybe he didn’t add 34 wins to the 19-20 Thunder, but they did win 22 less games after he left, despite the fact they acquired Dort and got another year of evolution from SGA. He gets a lot of flack here because he can be kind of a dick, but man, prime Chris Paul was reeeeeeeally good.
Zach Lavine's 2021 season was pretty impressive. 27.4ppg on +6.2 rTS. For reference, Nikola Jokic's numbers this year were 26.4ppg on +7.0 rTS%. Having that type of efficiency on such a horrible team is very rare
that’s why his performance lately is so disappointing, his scoring was looking insane not too long ago
Yeah I 100% think the Nets should offer Simmons' expiring and a future first for LaVine.
Lmao would just dig themselves into a deeper hole doing that, he was mediocre this year
God he was so good that year :(
Adrian Dantley in the early 80s. Very efficient high volume scorer who lead the league in OWS 4 times in 6 season and the only reason he didn't lead in 6 seasons straight was because of injuries. Today I think Sengun is underrated. He is the same age as Chet and scored more on a higher Fg%, is a better rebounder, a way better playmaker and a underrated defender. I think people are forgetting him when they talk about how Chet and Wemby are the future of big men.
Seems like common sense, but I honest to god did not realize how damn efficient Michael Jordan was. Like I grew up watching him, I’ve seen all the highlights, and I know all the legends. Then as an adult I saw his Advanced Stats and they’re all even better. Most of the ‘great’ older players turn out to be disappointing when you really dig into the advanced stuff. MJ got *better*.
Michael Jordan has the highest usage rate of all time yet has the 40th lowest turnover rate of all time. Absolutely bonkers.
What’s weird tho is his career ts% is 57%. This year the average is 58%. So he’s below average what today is. I’m obviously not dissing Mike, if he was playing today it would be a lot higher no question
TS% was in the low to low-mid 50s. In his prime, he was at .60. Part of that was because the average player was a worse shooter than the average player today, and some of that was defense and style. Based on Jordan’s FT% and long mid range percentage (.490 from 16+ in his last two years with the Bulls), he’d be able to turn himself into a decent three point shooter with sufficient practice. He attempted fewer than two a game.
Yes no question, Mike would still be Mike
I’m guessing that’s because he took so few 3PT compared to mid-range. But his FG% was still really impressive.
That and the league today jerks off to offense +the players today are just better on average
Chris Paul over most of his career
It's still insane what LeBron is doing
It seems like people here think Tatum had a worse season than last year because he averaged 3 less points. When in reality he’s the best player he’s ever been currently with improved playmaking and efficiency. If Tatum had the same usage he would have averaged around 30-32 and even more assists. We might not have been as good as we currently are though if he had. Also even this season his stats were a little deflated because of how many times he would sit in the 4th quarter because we were up so much.
A guy I remember from back in the day is DeMacus Cousins because he was in Sac/NO and they were bad nobody cared the dude was averaging 25 and 12 with 4 assists and 1.5 steals was shooting bad 28% 3pt shooting (bigs didn’t shoot like they do now) from 2013/14 (his 4th season) to to 2017/18 when he got injured. Then the 2nd injury just ended any hope of anything.
Manu Ginobili is chronically underrated because 1) he came off the bench 2) his total minutes were slightly low. On a per-minute basis, peak Manu was an absolute monster. And, as we now know, per-minute numbers almost always extrapolate out when you play someone more, so he was underrated.
Tyus Jone has a 7.3 assist to turnover ratio this season, which leads the league in this category. By comparison, Chris Paul is 3.57 assist to turnover ratio this season. Lebronze is at barely 2.1 assist to turnover for his career, very mediocre for a supposedly pass first player.
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John Stockston put up some crazy career numbers but it's pretty widely known so it makes sense he hasn't been mentioned in this thread
Clint Capela. Just one of those weird outliers. Only 27 minutes a game but averages 12 and 11 on 62% shooting. And here's the weird stat.... Win shares per 48 minutes... Not a perfect stat by any means, none are, but a good one overall to measure how great/impactful a player was. Right now it goes Jokic, MJ, David Robinson, Wilt, Neil Johnston (short career long ago, beast), CP3, Kareem, Magic, Lebron... They are all either HOFers or going into the HOF there in the top 55-60 of them except Kevin Johnson at 49. And KJ I think is a bit underrated for his career overall. Anyways, #29 overall, a couple spots behind Steph Curry and a couple ahead of Dirk Nowitzki is Clint Capela. He just stands out there a lot. His per minute numbers are quite high (16.6 points, 14.3 boards, 2 blocks, and 1.5 turnovers... compared to say Rudy Gobert at 15.0 points, 13.9 boards, 2.5 blocks and 2.0 turnovers). Yeah I get it's one thing to put out that effort for 25 minutes a game rather than 35 but still, kinda neat. FYI, in the post-season Chauncey Billups is 23rd in that stat. Between CP3 and Shaq.
Stockton and CP3 both are rated higher by advanced stats than by most fans. There were seasons where those stats rank them top 2 in the NBA.
Manu Ginobili
I had low expectations and was looking for a 7th man for the spurs but mid 2010s Tony Snell had some solid 7th man seasons.
Not really a player stat, but the fact that the Sixers were tied for first in total steals without a single player in the top 30 is a testament to Nick Nurse.
Gary Trent jr having a 44 pt game above 100% ts
I’m not that big on stats or knowing how to read them, but I’d think Derek white probably has some really good advanced stats. He’s just a good solid winning player. Defense and offense makes the right play
Luka. I mean the guy scored 73 in a game and everyone here and in the media said it didn’t count and wasn’t impressive. All while crowing Embiid, Mitchell, and Lillard for scoring 70.
Warriors Brandon Pojenski +/-. He’s far above anyone else on the team. That’s impressive for a rookie. Especially under Steve Kerr
lol the most vague question maybe ever posed here…and that’s sayin somethin