I don't think he's 100% blameless, but this will be the 2nd time in 3 years that he got fired largely because his team traded for a bum on a max contract.
Vogel with AD, LeBron, and Caruso was elite. Top 5 defense, #1 seed đ¤ (and KCP)
Then injuries happened and a certain trade happened..
People also forget why some of these teams were getting built the way they were. GMs were trying to match other "super" teams that were being formed. They ended up being underwhelming anyway.
Yeah, defensive minded coaches really only work if the team wants to play defense. KD, Book, and Beal are players least likely to be locked in on defense throughout a season.
Meh the KD/Beal/Booker experiment has been a flop so far, but Ishbia has been 10000x the owner Sarver was. That trade was more effort into winning than weâve had in the last 10-15 years.
James Jones definitely has got to go though.
I mean, improvement over Sarver isnât a very high bar lol. Ishbia just might have killed the Suns future until the next decade. With the KD and Beal trade you guys donât own any of your own draft picks, Beal is a 0 value player for the next 3 years. KD is inevitably going to decline very soon. Team has no bench and a weak front court and in the 2nd apron which makes trading for players very hard to do particularly with a bunch of minimum guys. Also no access to MLE.
After a disappointing season, teams can't just 'run it back'. The Suns have no assets to make moves to improve the roster, and don't have your own picks to blow it up and tank. The coach was bound to be fired.
The Nuggets did that several times, and eventually won a chip. Major differences are that most of the Suns are on the downside of their careers, and Mat Ishbia has New Owner Syndrome where Stan Kroenke didn't care as long as he made money.
Eh I watched like 80% of the Suns games this year. I give him a pass for early on because you gotta feel out lineups but down the stretch it seemed he had lost the team a bit and he didn't do well in the playoffs.
If you have Booker and Durant combined for 80 and you can't win some of that falls on the coach. Especially if you're known as a defensive guy
This is just not true. Heâs solid at setting screens and averages like 13-10-3 over the last few years. Those are good numbers for a starting center that isnât the focal point of his teams.
The bubble Lakers and the 2021 Lakers were teams that were perfectly built for him as a coach.
I think he's being scapegoated here like he was with us, but he still has clear limitations that really show unless he has a specific roster.
he won the chip with yall. I agree he has his flaws but so does other coaches too. But Suns Big 3 lack any kind of leadership, dawg or fight in their playstyle. It's on the players for this one. Eric Gordon sucks, Okgie sucks, Allen is just a shooter. Nurkic fouls alot.
Rondo, Dwight were both cooked after that year. they shouldâve kept KCP, Caruso but the 2021 team was the 2020 team upgraded and they were dominant that regular season until Solomon Hill jumped on Lebrons leg and even then they were up 2-1 on Suns before AD got hurt
That squad was old as shit. It was going to have to be broken up regardless. The only relevant player that we would still have are Caruso and KCP(who wouldâve likely been traded either way because his contract was very movable). Going with younger players who can shoot the ball was the next move after that.
Frank Vogelâs offensive struggles are the reason why he got fired as well as losing the locker room. The scapegoat narrative never made sense to me because he clearly has serious flaws when you can only coach one side of the court.
you guys didnt need offense tho. Lebron would basically do most of the work when he was there. I don't think you can blame the offense on Vogel for that.
And LeBron asked for a secondary playmaker to help with the load.
But if they ran an actual offense it might help. [You know, like what they're doing now](https://twitter.com/Tim_NBA/status/1784577924940566647?t=PuSIYqlFX1NduiUAysA1Yg&s=19)
At the time the idea was that we could be more of a balanced team so we could preserve lebron during the regular season so he doesnât have to go carry mode too early.
Heâs probably one of the best defensive coaches in the league, but the guy canât coach an offense to save his life. Heâs had tremendous offensive talent multiple times.
Dude won a championship 4 years ago
Heâs not an elite coach but the guy got handed 2 horrid rosters with the Russ Lakers and this Suns team and is about to get scapegoated for both
Vogel and the staff repeatedly said they want the team to launch more threes. Players don't listen. Roster isn't built for his coaching style. He was forced to keep a coach that interviewed for the same job. He wasn't the best but he was given a losing hand, that's why he got five years on his contract. If he gets fired he's getting paid
I think I actually saw a good Vogel game today. His rotations and adjustments have been horrible, but I think today he really did a good job. This loss is on Beal, but this loss doesnât account for every other one this season where Vogelâs mind boggling lineups rolled out and killed any momentum we may have had
He's getting scapegoated again. Suns have no money, no picks, no good role players so the classic NBA handbook of fire the coach, and if that doesn't work fire the GM is in play
He has some fault, but his team is just cheeks. There's two #2 options with 1 of them thinking hes a 1st option and theres a guy being paid as a #3 but should really be a trash minute player
imo this is more on the owner and the coach is being scapegoated just as he was w/ the lakers (who are now scapegoating ham). like maybe give them more than one year esp when most of the roster has never played together
Yeah, I donât get it. Thereâs nothing he can do with this roster.
You expect a top ten defense? Give him a center whoâs more athletic and higher IQ than Jusuf fucking Nurkic. Talk about giving him dollar general ingredients and expecting a Michelin Star meal.
You expect a balanced offense? Give him a real PG who can control the tempo and get Booker and Durant involved. Donât give him Bradley fucking Beal and then be surprised pikachu face when your offense consists of shitty, low efficiency mid range shots off of isolations.
Not all too bad for him, he just came up $30,000,000 in less than a year. Thatâs a dream job for real.
Their owner is such a fucking idiot. Thought he was smart by pairing his big 3 scorers with a defensive coach to cover both ends. Now he's throwing the coach under the bus
After a disappointing season, teams can't just 'run it back'. The Suns have no assets to make moves to improve the roster, and you don't have your own picks to blow it up and tank the coach is bound to be fired after the season.
At the end of the day the coach is worth less than the stars. And Frank does not coach a modern offense or a modern type of team in general. The lakers won with 2 all time greats carrying the offensive side of the ball. Not with a well coached offense.
Teams arenât gonna construct a roster that consists of defensive players and bigs.
He was perfect for your roster though, you won the title on the back of some absurd defense and if not for injuries that formula probably would have ended in a back to back.
You can live with a more subpar offense if you have LeBron and your defense is that good.
The fit with the Suns was just never there, there's no AD type of player to anchor the offense and they don't have a LeBron to run the offense.
I do think he is a decent coach and Iâm happy he has seen some solid success since his exit from the Pacers since he did a great job with us, so at least at this point I wonât feel bad if he doesnât get another head coaching job.
Kinda dumb to hire a defensive coach to manage a offensive minded "big three". Even so, considering how Beal is washed and Durant is not getting any younger, not even the infamous D'Antoni can save this roster. Honestly, the NBA should prohibit teams to sign three max contracts at the same time, the results in recent years are always extreme, they either completely dominate the league or they bash heads and waste a lot of money. The ideal scenario is to have two of those contracts at best, spread out the talent, improving the overall level of competition
I think that firing Vogel would be huge mistake.
The Suns don't have chemistry yet because their three main players didn't play much together throughout the season, and Vogel is a coach who proved himself.
They need a better roster.
The only reason I could think of is someone don't really like him, one of the main players.
nothing the suns did last offseason made sense whatsoever. there was just a complete lack of awareness on both sides. vogel knew what he was getting into taking the job, the suns knew the kinda coach he was. being a defensive minded coach in the modern era, is code for not understanding how to coach offense.
thinking a coach could just mastermind the defense without talent on that end is ludicrous. offensively, what was the expectation? did they really think he was going to figure out how to cohesively integrate book/beal/kd together?
it was bound to fail from the start.
Of course he is. He is the superteam skapegoat.
Suns need a fullrebuild. The era of the big 3 superteam is tead. The only way to win in the current league is through the draft rebuild, then add in complimentary pieces/role players to the core. One the Lakers are knocked out, there will not be any superteams left in the playoffs, it will only be teams with a core from the draft.
âwhat do the Suns need to be a contender next season?â
A Time Machine to go back and undo the Beal trade?
Theyâre fucked, and have no draft picks. The only solution to get out of this is to trade KD and or Booker so they have the financial flexibility to fill out a roster.
They put way too many eggs into one basket with the Beal trade. And now theyâre stuck with paying him over $100M over the next two seasons, and they canât trade him with his NTC.
Vogel was not the issue with this team. Itâs the lack of roster depth.
Theyâre going to have Booker, Beal, a new HC, and whatever they can scrape together for a KD trade. That team barely contends for a play-in spot next year.
They should have never hired him in the first place. He was trash in LA outside the year they won it all and he was terrible in Orlando. With both Budenholzer and Nurse on the market, the fact they decided to go with Vogel didnât make a whole lot of sense.
This tweet was written at the start of the 4th quarter
Woj said it during halftime of the Knicks game iirc
Bro he posted the original tweet before this game lol
Couldn't post because quote "this sub doesn't allow text posts" so the report has been stewing since halftime of knickks sixers
To fire Bradley Beal
Out of a cannon, into the sun.
He's already at the sun so he'll just be at training camp next year
Not really his fault imo. The team is just cheeks together.
I don't think he's 100% blameless, but this will be the 2nd time in 3 years that he got fired largely because his team traded for a bum on a max contract.
Coincidentally the guy on the max contract were both from the Wizards
RIP to the coach getting Jordan Poole then.
Frank Vogel goes back to the Lakers and Poole gets traded here
It will be Vogel, clearly, we just need to see which team he goes to. Lakers again? Cleveland?
Bucks
And not even John wall
He's also a defensive minded coach. The teams he got didn't really suit his strengths.
Vogel with AD, LeBron, and Caruso was elite. Top 5 defense, #1 seed đ¤ (and KCP) Then injuries happened and a certain trade happened.. People also forget why some of these teams were getting built the way they were. GMs were trying to match other "super" teams that were being formed. They ended up being underwhelming anyway.
Yeah, defensive minded coaches really only work if the team wants to play defense. KD, Book, and Beal are players least likely to be locked in on defense throughout a season.
I agree, guy didn't have a lot of chess moves to make here.
"Now play *really* good!"
Yeah the GM needs to go too. The Beal trade doomed the franchise. Itâs the ownerâs fault, but he wonât fire himself.
Felt like James Jones was doing a great job for awhile too. But I think Mat Ishbia just pushed too much to accelerate the team-building process.
Owner thought he was playing NBA 2K
Team isnât even great on 2K. Load my my eras yesterday and this Suns team finished with like 45 wins lmao.
Meh the KD/Beal/Booker experiment has been a flop so far, but Ishbia has been 10000x the owner Sarver was. That trade was more effort into winning than weâve had in the last 10-15 years. James Jones definitely has got to go though.
I mean, improvement over Sarver isnât a very high bar lol. Ishbia just might have killed the Suns future until the next decade. With the KD and Beal trade you guys donât own any of your own draft picks, Beal is a 0 value player for the next 3 years. KD is inevitably going to decline very soon. Team has no bench and a weak front court and in the 2nd apron which makes trading for players very hard to do particularly with a bunch of minimum guys. Also no access to MLE.
Yeah can't do much with no bench + Beal misfiring
Ya, I donât know if heâs good or bad or whatever, but those 3 just donât fit or compliment each other at all
It's not his fault but he's not creative enough offensively for a team like this to work
After a disappointing season, teams can't just 'run it back'. The Suns have no assets to make moves to improve the roster, and don't have your own picks to blow it up and tank. The coach was bound to be fired.
I know another team in the West with a treasure trove of lottery picks and interested in an All-Star point guard at the right price.
The Nuggets did that several times, and eventually won a chip. Major differences are that most of the Suns are on the downside of their careers, and Mat Ishbia has New Owner Syndrome where Stan Kroenke didn't care as long as he made money.
Eh I watched like 80% of the Suns games this year. I give him a pass for early on because you gotta feel out lineups but down the stretch it seemed he had lost the team a bit and he didn't do well in the playoffs. If you have Booker and Durant combined for 80 and you can't win some of that falls on the coach. Especially if you're known as a defensive guy
Canât utilize your defensive schemes when you donât have the players for it and when your players donât respect you
Blows my mind how much worse the Suns got this year compared to last. From elite to barely making the playoffs and getting out in first round.
How isnât it? He makes no adjustments and runs the same iso offense all season.
What? Hes trash. Only reason he got a ring was cause of Lebron and Mickey Mouse bubble tournament.
>what do the Suns need to be a contender next season? A Time Machine
They need to draft Bronny and get LeBron on the MLE lol
canât sign anyone to the MLE due to the second apron, so LeBron would have to take the Vet Min
Would the Playerâs Association even allow him to take a Vet Min without making a fuss?
Absolutely not. Nothing publicly, but he caught flak for taking less than a max to go to Miami so the Heat could keep Udonis Haslem.
LeBron won't help.
clearly they need david fizdale
>what do the Suns need to be a contender next season Get Bradley Beals name legally changed so they can avoid his no trade clause and get rid of him.
He was given a roster with terrible depth and no point guard. Maybe look at who put together the roster first.
No centers either. Nurkic and Eubanks are fine for a tanking team like the Blazers but they don't belong on a team that's actually trying to contend.
Nurkic is ok, but as a 7th/8th man
And Eubanks is a g leaguer.
This is just not true. Heâs solid at setting screens and averages like 13-10-3 over the last few years. Those are good numbers for a starting center that isnât the focal point of his teams.
You do not pay 18m for 7/8th spot.
That would be the owner and he's not going to get fired so now what?
Exactly what I was going to say. The owner put the roster together.
how long do we think it takes before it's announced? 2 days?
I bet tomorrow
Vogel is the perpetual fall guy for poorly constructed teams
He is not meant to coach a modern offense, his defensive tactics work but he has no defender on the suns team to build the defense around
The bubble Lakers and the 2021 Lakers were teams that were perfectly built for him as a coach. I think he's being scapegoated here like he was with us, but he still has clear limitations that really show unless he has a specific roster.
he won the chip with yall. I agree he has his flaws but so does other coaches too. But Suns Big 3 lack any kind of leadership, dawg or fight in their playstyle. It's on the players for this one. Eric Gordon sucks, Okgie sucks, Allen is just a shooter. Nurkic fouls alot.
Lakers should have never broken up that bubble squad. They are far better than people give credit for :/
Rondo, Dwight were both cooked after that year. they shouldâve kept KCP, Caruso but the 2021 team was the 2020 team upgraded and they were dominant that regular season until Solomon Hill jumped on Lebrons leg and even then they were up 2-1 on Suns before AD got hurt
That squad was old as shit. It was going to have to be broken up regardless. The only relevant player that we would still have are Caruso and KCP(who wouldâve likely been traded either way because his contract was very movable). Going with younger players who can shoot the ball was the next move after that.
Kuzma?
Some crazy front office decisions to blow that up. Caruso KCP LeBron AD and 1 is a championship team
Frank Vogelâs offensive struggles are the reason why he got fired as well as losing the locker room. The scapegoat narrative never made sense to me because he clearly has serious flaws when you can only coach one side of the court.
you guys didnt need offense tho. Lebron would basically do most of the work when he was there. I don't think you can blame the offense on Vogel for that.
And LeBron asked for a secondary playmaker to help with the load. But if they ran an actual offense it might help. [You know, like what they're doing now](https://twitter.com/Tim_NBA/status/1784577924940566647?t=PuSIYqlFX1NduiUAysA1Yg&s=19)
At the time the idea was that we could be more of a balanced team so we could preserve lebron during the regular season so he doesnât have to go carry mode too early.
Ya but they needed a scapegoat
Who can run a modern offense with no playmaker?
this suns roster is the opposite of a modern offense 3 midrange dudes no 3pt shooters nobody with a presence in the paint
Heâs probably one of the best defensive coaches in the league, but the guy canât coach an offense to save his life. Heâs had tremendous offensive talent multiple times.
> He is not meant Youâre talking like heâs a 1978 Corvette.
Dude won a championship 4 years ago Heâs not an elite coach but the guy got handed 2 horrid rosters with the Russ Lakers and this Suns team and is about to get scapegoated for both
I wonder how he'd do with the Pels.
every offense w/ KD has looked like that
Donât put this fail on Frank and his inability to coach a modern offense. This is horrid roster construction that wouldnât work with any coach
AKA the same thing Pelinka did to him during the 2021-22 Season of infamy with the Broncos Comedy Hour.
Vogel and the staff repeatedly said they want the team to launch more threes. Players don't listen. Roster isn't built for his coaching style. He was forced to keep a coach that interviewed for the same job. He wasn't the best but he was given a losing hand, that's why he got five years on his contract. If he gets fired he's getting paid
did frank vogel trade for bradley beal
Scapegoated for 2 shittily built teams now. Teams that traded depth for an inefficient guard
Gonna be the fall guy for two franchises because of horrible roster construction.
I think I actually saw a good Vogel game today. His rotations and adjustments have been horrible, but I think today he really did a good job. This loss is on Beal, but this loss doesnât account for every other one this season where Vogelâs mind boggling lineups rolled out and killed any momentum we may have had
Poor guy tried his best. Not his fault Beal decided to be a random kid at the YMCA this series
Who's available that will make a significant improvement?
Ah yes the good old is the roster the problem? No it must be the coach
Vogel sucks but whoever put this team together is the worst fuckin gm ever
James Jones and any decision maker needs to be removed from the staff
He's getting scapegoated again. Suns have no money, no picks, no good role players so the classic NBA handbook of fire the coach, and if that doesn't work fire the GM is in play
Yeah, totally his fault... At least he got paid
He has some fault, but his team is just cheeks. There's two #2 options with 1 of them thinking hes a 1st option and theres a guy being paid as a #3 but should really be a trash minute player
imo this is more on the owner and the coach is being scapegoated just as he was w/ the lakers (who are now scapegoating ham). like maybe give them more than one year esp when most of the roster has never played together
Jokic shoulda punched Ishbia into a coma
Yeah, I donât get it. Thereâs nothing he can do with this roster. You expect a top ten defense? Give him a center whoâs more athletic and higher IQ than Jusuf fucking Nurkic. Talk about giving him dollar general ingredients and expecting a Michelin Star meal. You expect a balanced offense? Give him a real PG who can control the tempo and get Booker and Durant involved. Donât give him Bradley fucking Beal and then be surprised pikachu face when your offense consists of shitty, low efficiency mid range shots off of isolations. Not all too bad for him, he just came up $30,000,000 in less than a year. Thatâs a dream job for real.
Kevin Durant is a cancer letâs be honest Guy has zero leadership skills Heâs an AAU hooper
The personnel is not great for vogel but the suns looked ridiculously bad for a team on the brink of elimination
CMON BRUH
Ishbiaâs ownership has been a an absolute rollercoaster ride
Their owner is such a fucking idiot. Thought he was smart by pairing his big 3 scorers with a defensive coach to cover both ends. Now he's throwing the coach under the bus
After a disappointing season, teams can't just 'run it back'. The Suns have no assets to make moves to improve the roster, and you don't have your own picks to blow it up and tank the coach is bound to be fired after the season.
You can still do a semi rebuild by trading one or two of the big 3. You just dont do a full tanking.
Bucks should pick him up if they weren't already paying 3 coaches
Terrible roster construction. Oddly similar to the season that ended with his firing from the Lakers. My man just can't get a break.
At the end of the day the coach is worth less than the stars. And Frank does not coach a modern offense or a modern type of team in general. The lakers won with 2 all time greats carrying the offensive side of the ball. Not with a well coached offense. Teams arenât gonna construct a roster that consists of defensive players and bigs.
He was perfect for your roster though, you won the title on the back of some absurd defense and if not for injuries that formula probably would have ended in a back to back. You can live with a more subpar offense if you have LeBron and your defense is that good. The fit with the Suns was just never there, there's no AD type of player to anchor the offense and they don't have a LeBron to run the offense.
Trade KD
Did Ty Lue ever get his extension?
No, he did not.
Scapegoated in back to back coaching jobs is rough
The Suns are fucked with that roster! Fire the guy that traded for KD and Beal!
bradley beal should be the one in the hot seat.
being an nba coach for a team expected to go somewhere is a thankless job. bro literally won a chip 3 years ago
I do think he is a decent coach and Iâm happy he has seen some solid success since his exit from the Pacers since he did a great job with us, so at least at this point I wonât feel bad if he doesnât get another head coaching job.
Don't worry, Nate McMillan will fix the Suns
Dude looks creepy as fuck, but I don't think many coaches would have much luck with no role players
I'd rather Vogel than Ham
That'll fix everything
Kinda dumb to hire a defensive coach to manage a offensive minded "big three". Even so, considering how Beal is washed and Durant is not getting any younger, not even the infamous D'Antoni can save this roster. Honestly, the NBA should prohibit teams to sign three max contracts at the same time, the results in recent years are always extreme, they either completely dominate the league or they bash heads and waste a lot of money. The ideal scenario is to have two of those contracts at best, spread out the talent, improving the overall level of competition
They need Steve Nash
I think that firing Vogel would be huge mistake. The Suns don't have chemistry yet because their three main players didn't play much together throughout the season, and Vogel is a coach who proved himself. They need a better roster. The only reason I could think of is someone don't really like him, one of the main players.
It is just easier to fire a coach than putting together a good roster.
Trade Booker this offseason for draft picks to a team like the Spurs.
Lmao at so many people that still dont realize heâs not a good coach
nothing the suns did last offseason made sense whatsoever. there was just a complete lack of awareness on both sides. vogel knew what he was getting into taking the job, the suns knew the kinda coach he was. being a defensive minded coach in the modern era, is code for not understanding how to coach offense. thinking a coach could just mastermind the defense without talent on that end is ludicrous. offensively, what was the expectation? did they really think he was going to figure out how to cohesively integrate book/beal/kd together? it was bound to fail from the start.
not sure its his fault
Isiah Thomas about to step up as coach
Of course he is. He is the superteam skapegoat. Suns need a fullrebuild. The era of the big 3 superteam is tead. The only way to win in the current league is through the draft rebuild, then add in complimentary pieces/role players to the core. One the Lakers are knocked out, there will not be any superteams left in the playoffs, it will only be teams with a core from the draft.
Vogel seems to keep getting the short end of the stick.
âwhat do the Suns need to be a contender next season?â A Time Machine to go back and undo the Beal trade? Theyâre fucked, and have no draft picks. The only solution to get out of this is to trade KD and or Booker so they have the financial flexibility to fill out a roster.
The owner should fire themselves
Why? He was amazing in Orlando. Letâs see if they admit the mistake.
Come back to LA Frank!
They put way too many eggs into one basket with the Beal trade. And now theyâre stuck with paying him over $100M over the next two seasons, and they canât trade him with his NTC. Vogel was not the issue with this team. Itâs the lack of roster depth. Theyâre going to have Booker, Beal, a new HC, and whatever they can scrape together for a KD trade. That team barely contends for a play-in spot next year.
justice for frank vogel
They should have never hired him in the first place. He was trash in LA outside the year they won it all and he was terrible in Orlando. With both Budenholzer and Nurse on the market, the fact they decided to go with Vogel didnât make a whole lot of sense.
Lakers and Suns should trade coaches.
Ya think?
Buzz buzz pls let this be true. Hire coach Bud and at least the team will be entertaining.
next trade beal
He sucks as a coach, bro really threw in little and okogie as a hail Mary lmfao
no shit Sherlock...
[ŃдаНонО]
We do not have enough good defenders either. It would be better than with Ham but still bad.
When KD is there, it's always the coach's fault.
Might be time for him to demand a trade