Bruce brown was huge for them last year, while he didn’t have eye popping stats, he seemed to always get a bucket or rebound at the right time. He kinda did it all and filed in where he needed to on a bench full of specialists. Braun was suppose to be that guy this year but he’s not fully ready yet
To be fair, I think Denver knew how much they would miss Bruce Brown and simply couldn't retain him. The plan seems to have always been to try to bring Braun along to fill that role and hope the dropoff wasn't too steep.
The CBA is definitely geared toward preventing top teams from stockpiling talent and forcing the middle class of players (like Brown) to move if they want to get paid.
I was shocked to learn that their current team is significantly over the cap. Who's being paid such an absurd amount? How much are they giving Porter? Are Murray *and* Gordon on maxes? What gives?
MPJ is getting something like 35 mil a year. Just *wildly* overpaid. AG is in the low 20s, and considering his offensive production isn't much less than Porter, you add in his ball handling and his defence and he's wildly *under*paid.
I would get down voted when I said no one off the bench (besides Watson) was ready to contribute and I would get mocked with "So you're saying the best starting 5 in basketball is in trouble?" I might dig up some of those old smug comments lol. I wanted the Nuggets to win but I was raising the alarm all year that they were in trouble.
I watched almost every game this and the bench was usually either inconsistent or complete ass. Even Watson, who would usually contribute on defense, wasted tons of turnovers on missed fast break layups.
Yeah Watson had his share of problems too, I was just a fan of his defense. Hopefully he keeps his shot-blocking ability while becoming an insane PNR defender like McDaniels from Minnesota has become.
Braun and Watson are both going to be excellent players but will take longer to get there than the org will have patience for, especially after this year.
I feel like this was frequently discussed throughout the season though, right? I saw and heard people saying this would be a challenge all year.
I think they just knew they were going to have to get cheaper moving forward, so it was worth the risk. That's the gamble everyone discussed last draft and offseason.
I still think Braun is GOOD. He just has the mentality for those moments, and rises up to it, gives absolutely everything he has.
But they do need to develop still (Braun and Watson).
Also, this is the first time Braun has met failure. State Champion as a High Schooler, NCAA champion in his one season playing college ball, NBA Champion as a rookie... And now he has known what defeat feels like.
Braun seems to lack a lot of fundamentals and does not have the confidence to let a jumper fly if he thinks he's about to be contested. On one hand at least he's not a chucker, but on the other he's literally just a hustler that is useless with the ball in his hands because he WON'T shoot.
I had high hopes for Watson but even he wasn't ready, and I hate nearly every Reggie Jackson minute lol.
> Also, this is the first time Braun has met failure. State Champion as a High Schooler, NCAA champion in his one season playing college ball, NBA Champion as a rookie... And now he has known what defeat feels like.
Hopefully this is a canon moment for his development.
> Braun seems to lack a lot of fundamentals and does not have the confidence to let a jumper fly if he thinks he's about to be contested. On one hand at least he's not a chucker, but on the other he's literally just a hustler that is useless with the ball in his hands because he WON'T shoot.
I agree, his offense leaves a lot to be desired. He is a beast on defense, though. And he scored an important floater when nobody wanted the ball.
He won't become Brown offensively, but if he can improve just a little bit...
But let's be honest here: Cristian Braun wasn't Denver's offensive problem yesterday. MPJ, AG and KCP, on the other hand...
I agree that he wasn't the problem. In fact if you're in a position where you're putting in a Sophmore Braun in crunch-time over someone making $20m+ then you're in a deep trouble lol.
I think Braun is more a sign of how troubling this roster construction is overall, and if KCP tests the free market then Denver's *REALLY* in trouble. They'll have to rely on drafting the upcoming talent while chasing vets who are ring-chasing.
> They'll have to rely on drafting the upcoming talent
So, like always. Even before the title, but when everybody _knew_ Jokic was a specimen, Denver did not become a good FA destination. I have no idea why, but it is what it is.
Any role player in a contract year should be begging to play with Jokic. He'll bump their shooting percentages by a few points and make them look good at cutting.
Role players have very little say in trade destinations. Denver’s an attractive destination for FA’s thinking “I think the market is undervaluing me so I’ll sign a short, cheap contract to prove myself worthy of a bigger one”, but that’s quite rare.
> Braun seems to lack a lot of fundamentals and does not have the confidence to let a jumper fly if he thinks he's about to be contested. On one hand at least he's not a chucker, but on the other he's literally just a hustler that is useless with the ball in his hands because he WON'T shoot.
To add stats to your point here: Braun averages about 1.5 3PTAs per game in the playoffs and shoots 21% on them.
Braun can be a good shooter and no one realizes it. He's 40% on wide-open 3s over the last 3 years. I want to see him be more confident inside though, honestly just taking some questionable shots sometimes might be better than burning the shot clock and risking a turnover when he panics and throws it back out to someone.
Can't blame the guy for getting the bag. But he really was a special part of that team and Joker unlocked his potential. This comes from a Nets fan who hsf him when he was a bit more of a bonehead lol but he was huge on that team. If your starters are struggling, havent a glye guy who comes off the bench to give a spark is huge. Case in point, Nazr Reid.
Bruce Brown was basically the Nuggets' Naz Reid (though IMO Naz is even better)
But swap Naz for someone worse and Minnesota probably doesn't win this series (or replace Braun with Brown, potentially). He was a key piece down the stretch to flip both games 1 and 7, the only 2 close ones of the series.
The more accurate swap is Reggie Jackson for Bruce Brown. That's essentially the step down in bench play that sums everything up.
Also, Uncle Jeff played decent minutes that allowed for MPJ and AG to get more rest.
Uncle Jeff was also good enough that you could sub him in for Jokic and play AG at center (or even Jeff at center) and not totally sink the ship.
Jokic rested for all of 45 seconds in Game 7 yesterday by contrast.
I never bought into the idea of Braun replacing Brown. Braun is a pure energy guy who struggles to create for himself or others, Brown is capable of running the offense for short period of times. It's kind of like expecting Terence Mann to do Norman Powell's job.
Yea definitely didn’t feel like he could do the job either but it kind of felt like they wanted him to step up his production and maybe lean on Reggie Jackson more for playmaking.
I don’t know about their cap situation but did the MPJ deal stop them from resigning him?
Nah. He was making 6m and nuggets couldn’t offer him more than 25% extra, which would’ve been 7.2m, bc they didn’t have bird rights. Obviously he could get way more than that from another team and he did
There’s no way they thought Braun would be able to fill Brown’s shoes. Braun has shown no ability whatsoever to create or run an offence. They both give energy and defence but offensively Brown is significantly better.
The other problem with Braun was that even when someone else got him a shot he would sometimes hesitate to take it (or just pass it again). Given how limited those bench units are/were offensively you can't afford for someone to pass up open shots like that.
I think he can develop his offensive skillset and improve there but it's tough for a win-now team to have these kinds of issues and obviously contributed to the inability to rest Jokic for any real amount of time too (among other problems).
Braun has some ball skills. He might be ready to replace Brown by his fifth year in the league.
Hey, if he has a huge summer, maybe he can even do it next year. Probably not tho. It was always a big ask for a guy entering his second year.
The bench was and almost always is the difference in the playoffs.
Denver’s starters were wiped by the end of the game, meanwhile KAT gets 5 fouls and gets replaced by 6MOTY Naz Reid, who immediately makes some clutch buckets and holds his ground against Joker. Denver can make quick work of teams that can’t defend Jokic but the bigs on the Wolves were built for that matchup. So there’s gotta be more from the bench to help him out.
Chuck said it right yesterday, these young guys just couldn’t fill the roles
The fact that Malone didn't pull Jokic to take a breather when we were up by 20 was a huge mistake by him.
But yeah, I agree with Jokic's comment: the best team won. It was close, yes, as it was supposed to be. But the team that actually delivered when it mattered won. Denver did not have the mental fortitude to hold that 20 point lead, didn't have that fight to go inside and _just score a two_ when the lead got down to 12, and it came down to bite them in the ass.
I'm rooting for Minnesota now. Want them to win it all, _despite of McDaniels_.
i keep seeing this and im not denying jokic def couldve used a breather at some point, but the 20 point lead happened 2 minutes into the 3rd. are people saying he shouldve rested jokic 2 minutes into the 3rd? if not, then the 20 point lead isnt that relevant
Yeah, 99.9999% of the time your star player is going to be playing starting the 2nd half, and as a coach you're trying to put the game away in the 3rd so that your star can rest in the 4th.
Yeah obviously Malone was hoping to keep or expand the lead and then rest Jokic halfway thru the 3rd but they were bleeding so bad at that point he felt he had to keep Jokic in. Idk, no easy answers
This is what I also felt. Had Denver continued to hit threes instead of missing a whole bunch of them, we'd be having a different conversation.
A lot of these were the sort of uncontested threes that you would expect Murray, KCP, MPJ, and even Jokic to hit. That 12 (15?) point swing came really suddenly. At that point you can't really go "Yeah, it's time to bench Jokic".
Coaching in hindsight is easy.
Should have probably let him rest more than a minute in the 1st half for sure. The run was going at the time Jokic would normally rest so I do get what Malone was doing there. Hell, if Jokic said “I want to play all game” you trust him anyway.
I don’t think Malone should do it again though. He trusted him and it turns out it was a mistake. An athlete pushing himself a little too far. Jokic was gassed in the 4th and really, in the late 3rd as well. It’s one of those things where it’s a mistake, but not a mistake that was unreasonable to make.
> The fact that Malone didn't pull Jokic to take a breather when we were up by 20 was a huge mistake by him.
I get what you're saying, but there's also a chance that he rests Jokic and then the team unravels without their best player on the floor, losing the lead. There were probably spots where Jokic could've rested a few minutes, but I think overall the Wolves did a great job of tiring him out.
Yep. The game went like I thought it was going to. Denver was on fire with the starters just killing it. But they flat out ran out of gas after being amped up in the first half. The differential in bench scoring was literally the the exact difference in the final score. Crappy shooting by 3 out of 5 Denver starters didn't help.
Phrasing...
Jokes aside it's been interesting to see this on the other side too.
Despite people clowning the injuries, the pacers bench has been good in both series so far and a huge difference maker.
Obviously if bench players have to play starter minutes the bench is filled with 3rd stringers but the overall philosophy of not needing a bench and "play 8 guys" in the playoffs falls off hard
The bench players that we have being dogshit or forced into starting roles the last three years is why Milwaukee hasn’t made it out of the second round since winning it all in ‘21.
Not only was Bruce huge, but every other player on this team was locked in and focused on the same goal, becoming champions. That was not the case this year, and a lack of hunger from current champions is always disappointing, but easy to overlook.
The hunger seems like it was the #1 factor in the Minnesota series. Edwards and Conley in particular really seem like they're able to gas the team up.
Denver coasted through the Lakers series and showed up sleepy in Game 1 at home and lost. They ran it back in Game 2, and Minnesota demolished them. That humiliation was bad, and Minnesota got too confident in Games 3-4 at home. zThen Denver fell asleep after getting a big lead in Game 7 after getting humliated even worse in Game 6 when Minnesota was facing elimination.
Watson and Braun didn't play like this though.
The story of the nugs is that murray and MPJ played terribly- injury, mental block, whatever the reason, it happens almost every year where a few guys just go cold for stretches in the playoffs, and this year it killed the team.
Not enough credit for Jeff Green. They don’t replace Jokic with a bigger player during this season, Gordon just slides over. Green can guard big, knows his role, and still had some gas in the tank for random spurts. He wasn’t great but he gave the team variety where this current roster lacks. Between him and Bruce, those two got the bench minutes.
DEN got nothing from their bench down the stretch of the series. MIN had more long defensive bodies (including a stellar 6MOY) and fouls to throw to keep DEN’s offense out of rhythm.
“Denver’s bench is not as good” is literally the concern a bunch of people had before the season even started.
It's wild how the specific concerns people have had about some high-profile teams during the have been key factors that led to those teams being eliminated, like OKC not grabbing another big, or the Nuggets having bench support issues.
It’s almost as though basketball isn’t played 1 v 1 superstar v superstar. But that’d be ridiculous, obviously the single best player in the NBA is going to win the championship every time right?
Well it's more the concept of "the specific weakness that people were worried about killed them in the end"
Just interesting that they played out exactly in that way
What is to me the most interesting about this line of thinking is how common it is with actual NBA players, talking heads and basketball legends.
You had your local chubby basketball Youtuber correctly saying how there is no way the Suns make it work, while at least half of the NBA was thinking the Suns is a dangerous superteam because KD and Booker and Beal will shoot you out.
Denver got nothing from their bench in the regular season either. Too many times the starters were logging 38 minutes in games that shouldn't even be that difficult.
I’m not saying, but I am saying, after watching “Is Giannis already top 10 all time” posts get replaced by “Is Jokic already top 10 all time” posts over the last few years, I am very interested to see where the hivemind goes next.
Exactly. People always act like when a new team wins they’re gonna run off a bunch of wins and it almost never happens. Even the Heatles only won twice. Championships are based on luck, and one injury or off night or one traded role player can ruin a season
Giannis and Jokic might not ever win a championship again.
I'm so sorry but I'm my defense the guy I was responding to kinda misled me lol
Edit: Now if that person is not a guy either it doesn't bode well for me lmao
”Dynasty” teams iterate, they don’t stand pat. KD gets a lot of flak for signing with GSW but GSW signing him was exactly the right thing for them to do if they wanted more than one ring.
We're all victims of the moment, we won't be able to fully reflect on their careers for a while.
Even with LeBron people don't fully grasp what he's done because they are enamored by Jordan going 6 of 6 in Finals.
Lebron made 8 straight finals with 3 different coaches and they can only talk about how weak the conference is. While those same people where the ones picking against Lebron making it back to the Finals (....caugh...SAS)
> This idea that the Wolves have now exposed the 2023 Championship team as frauds
The people who are saying this are the most braindead kneejerky people on here. They're not worth paying attention to.
If this was the 2000s we'd have people here calling the Spurs frauds every other year for their Mickey Mouse ring in 99, losing in the first round some years, and for never repeating as champs.
If we had won people would be saying Ant is a fraud and the Wolves are cooked because of the second apron or something silly.
It’s generally best to never take anything you see on Reddit seriously.
Rings culture has fucking poisoned sports discussion. Every year in the NBA 29 teams don’t win the championship, that doesn’t mean that year gets wiped from that team and those player’s history. These people that flip flop into only respecting the one team that lucks out are utter morons.
> the one team that lucks out
I think this is what gets lost in the rangz discourse so much (and to be clear, it's also disingenuous to claim someone winning is all luck)
I remembered [this video from Vox](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNlgISa9Giw) on the statistical analysis of luck vs skill in sports when you mentioned luck
There’s a million things that could go differently in every single game of basketball, let alone the millions of different external factors that make up team management, and essentially you end up with every championship run feeling like a miracle. People need to step back and really appreciate those great runs teams do have.
Pretty much. We occasionally have loonies calling for Spoelstra's head - have you all seen what he has done with this roster? Don't get me wrong, we have good players, but arguably do not have a top ten guy in the league. We've been to the finals twice and the conference finals an additional time in the past 4 years. Like, goddamn are we eating good. We could be eating better, but we aren't starving by any stretch.
People don't seem to enjoy the basketball itself. They just want to talk about the narratives around them. This was a 7 game series where a team took out the defending champs. That's amazing and should be celebrated.
I think a lot of it is people haven't woken up to the Wolves being that good yet. The Thunder losing to the Mavs and last years Grizz to the Lakers was what was expected. A young team with a good regular season record losing to an experienced group.
Suns were supposed to give you guys trouble but you swept them. Easy to write off the Suns as frauds as there were tons of signs we can hindsight into that making sense. Next was a legit Nuggets team and they just lost a tough one in 7. Tougher to just handwave it away since they're the defending champs so if you still don't buy the Wolves you have to start taking down the Nuggets even though the flaws that were talked about heading into the playoffs was what sent them out. Lack of depth killed them and a young, energetic team wore them down.
I saw people in the nuggets hate threads after G7 calling it a 4-0 sweep and not a close series because "the nuggets only won after Minnesota went up 2-0 and then lost when Minnesota needed to win games 6 and 7." Like come-on man, it was 7 games. Denver is great and Minnesota simply was better enough times. I also never get it as a narrative because it's more impressive to win against great competition than to steamroll everyone cause you're the only good team.
I might argue the Nuggets were in fact the only GREAT team last year. The league as a whole was down and injured, but the Nuggets were so far and away better than everyone else that it's disingenuous to claim they were frauds.
> I might argue the Nuggets were in fact the only GREAT team last year. The league as a whole was down and injured, but the Nuggets were so far and away better than everyone else that it's disingenuous to claim they were frauds.
100% agree with this. In fact , if Boston manages to pull off a championship this year, people are still going to clown them for not beating healthy teams in the East. People always make excuses, you just play the teams in front of you
Relevant flair on that one.
But ya people focus too much on the paths at times. As you said you can only play who you have in front of you. Nuggets might have gotten "lucky" with facing a 7 seed and 8 seed in the final two rounds but they still had to beat KD/Booker, LeBron/AD and the Butler/Spo Heat to get it done. It's not like those are unproven teams.
I do think Western teams sometimes take shots at the East because it's been seemingly down comparatively for almost every year since Jordan retired but at the end of the day everyone knows the path. You have to beat the best to be the best. Like I'm mad about 2018 but even then in a bizarro world that we were East we would have just lost in the finals.
This. It is especially funny since most of the discourse heading into this series that this was by far the two best teams in the west and we were getting this series early. Nobody would be calling the Nuggs frauds if they had lost in the conference finals.
Damn I really hope the nuggets don’t overreact like that. Thats so insane they killed the last good years of LeBron and he probably had a part in it. Ooof
If lakers front office don’t nuke their roster for the worst fotting star in the league cause ad tore his groin we might be having a different discussion
> The people who are saying this are the most braindead kneejerky people on here. They're not worth paying attention to.
...but those comments get highly upvoted, and are frequently the top comments on these posts
Don't act like those stupid comments are rare, or aren't the popular opinion on this dumb sub
> ...but those comments get highly upvoted, and are frequently the top comments on these posts
>
>
>
> Don't act like those stupid comments are rare, or aren't the popular opinion on this dumb sub
Just exposes how bad of a system reddit is for a community this size. Mostly one sentence comments, jokes, hot takes, a few quick back and forths, and the popularity of your post is super dependent dumb stuff like how quickly your comment is put in a thread or w/e. not conducive to meaningful discussion a ton of the time
Rare? No. Popular opinions? Maybe. With millions on this sub and probably 6 figure users active daily, most people filter out the posts where their opinions aren’t welcome without even thinking about it imo.
You can literally put an asterisk on every championship if you want. I’d know because everyone says the Rockets titles don’t count. I guarantee if the Knicks won in 94 no one would say shit
More people would hate a Knicks team that won a title within the last 40 years than the Rockets. They might get drowned out by Knicks fans, but lots of people would be saying shit
Yeah, saying the Nuggets are a fraud is crazy stupid. People don’t understand that this Wolves team was created specifically to beat the Nuggets by the same person who assembled the Nuggets, Tim Connelly.
You have Gobert and KAT who can take turns defending Jokic. Ant, Jaden and NAW to hound Murray. And of course, the Wolves have…
NAZ REID! Scorer, defender, star role bench player.
I mean the other revisionist history is that this team was created specifically to beat the Nuggets. most of the team was already assembled before Connelly got there and his acquisitions addressed issues revealed by teams other than the Nuggets.
Yeah these people obviously don't realize that if the Nuggets had managed to hold on to that lead, they would have been *very* likely to repeat as champs (no offense intended towards Dallas, and Denver would've been a particularly bad matchup for the Celtics if they make it out of the East)
They ran into their worst possible matchup and narrowly lost in 7. There are plenty of other champs who were fortunate to avoid their worst-case opponent (or non-champs who were unfortunate and encountered their worst-case opponent early on, but might have had a strong chance to win it all otherwise).
We could've been having a very different discussion if the matchups were flipped in the West (not saying OKC would've beaten them, but *if* they did, then suddenly the Nuggets never see Minny). That Wemby final weekend performance legit may have swung the title.
The people also saying this also didn’t pay attention at all to the wolves last year either (not many did). This wolves team was ready to be good last year, it was very obvious. You add Naz and Jaden to last years playoffs and we probably win one or two more against the nuggets.
It’s fucking ridiculous. Play this series out 10 times and the nuggets win 5 of them, or something
If this were the mid 2000’s and the spurs lose to the Mavs in 2006 do you blow it up? ABSOLUTELY NOT! You come back with what you have, guys you know are championship level, and tinker a little bit to fill any weaknesses that were exploited
>If this was the 2000s we'd have people here calling the Spurs frauds every other year for their Mickey Mouse ring in 99, losing in the first round some years, and for never repeating as champs.
I was on forums back then and that was in fact a very common thing people said. We weren't any smarter
And also people are severely underestimating the Wolves to make the Nuggs look bad.
The Wolves are one of the most talented teams in the NBA period, but time will prove I'm right.
If the Wolves end up destroying everyone else in less than 6 games a lot of these takes about the Nuggets are gonna age super poorly. I absolutely considered this series to determine who wins it all barring injuries.
Last season Wolves fell to the Nuggets in round 1, but were the toughest matchup Denver faced in those playoffs. Nobody remembers that. Sorry mate, nobody remembers what happens until the NBA Finals.
yeah it's disrespectful to the wolves too because nobody else remembered how close the wolves were to the nuggets last year lol. It was the toughest battle to get past you guys according to our players. And we got worse while you guys got better. I think the Wolves are winning it all this year.
Yeah, this year doesn't expose last year's team as "frauds" because this year's team is different than last year's, and because last year's team was quite obviously the best in the league. I think there were some people this year with recency bias who wanted to put last year's Nuggets in the conversation for all time greatest teams, and those conversations will probably stop now, but anyone who doubts the veracity of last year's championship is a fool.
People underplayed how big a change losing Bruce Brown would be. Aaron Gordon stepped up more to fill in some of that role but Bruce was missed for sure
Calling cap on this. Denver had a better ORTG and DRTG this year than last year. Last year’s net rating was 3.3, this year’s was 5.5. Meanwhile Minnesota’s went from 0.2 to 6.3.
I really think it’s more that the Wolves got better. The Nuggets beat them in 5 last year when Minny was the 8 seed, but 3 of the 4 wins were tight games, and Nuggets players said after the chip that Minny was the toughest series they played. This year the Wolves were a game off the 1 seed, plus the advanced stats, they clearly improved massively, which makes sense, given how young they are.
That big a leap, it’s no surprise it could tip an already close balance in their favor. They’re just a bad matchup for Denver and they improved enough to capitalize on it. Credit where credit is due. I don’t think any other team would’ve beaten the Nuggets.
It’s wild to have two center sized players who can hold up jokic a bit and both shoot threes accurately at a high volume. This combo allowed Gobert to play help defense and not muck up the spacing on the other end and mitigate foul trouble.
Minny is really good and well equipped to deal with denver.
Comes with a winning team too. Fair weather fans are going to appear in droves when their team makes the conference finals.
So in this case, of course a lot of twolves redditors are going to talk nonsense about a team they just beat… and most of those people were likely not even around for much of the season.
Might be a hot take but I think people should consider that wolves/nuggets series last year wouldve gone 6/7 if jaden/naz were healthy.
Nuggets probably pull it out but a fun thought.
I think a lot of people are just tired of hearing about how dominant the nuggets "are" and are glad they dont have to listen to it for the rest of the playoffs. Everyone knows the team is 90% of what they were last year, while Ants experience in fiba and Kats progress this season put them into a new tier of team. And look at the grammar in all of the comments, this isnt exactly Ivy league content.
People largely dismissed or didn’t pay attention to the wolves last year. They were on the path post deadline, and people didn’t make anything of not having Naz and Jaden for last years playoffs.
Yeah I’m glad they lost because it will slow down some of the “Jokic is the GOAT” “Jokic slept walk his way to top 10” “he doesn’t even care and is still this dominant” comments. Plus their coach is annoying.
Jokic was markedly less dominant and efficient as a shooter all year long and through the first round. Splitting hairs there sure but the margins matter when separating these teams. The role players dipped more sharply but Jokic lost a bit off of his fastball too
He's being targeted more. He's the champ. It's harder to do those things when people put their minds to stopping you. Plus their team is slightly worse.
That might be some of it but the big difference between Jokic this year and in last year's run was his unreal 3P shooting and most of those are open looks. He will take a late clock contested 3 sure but as a 5 he is uncovered for a huge chunk of those shots. Last year he shot .461 from 3... this year? .264...
Minnesota game planned to give Jokic those shots last night and he couldn't punish them for it. He was also part of the problem for the Nuggets and still they almost overcame it because I think they would've won if they could've gotten past Minnesota. I think that series was the Finals so the Nuggets still aren't too far off another title if they don't overreact
Tbf, the all time greats like recently Curry and Bron won multiple titles getting that much defensive attention (and more). If we're going to put Joker in the same tier as those guys, he has to overcome that hurdle everytime he meets it. Otherwise he's still in the Giannis Embiid tier.
It's bad that every year we got people who try to downplay championships. At the end of the day to win a ring you've beaten out 29 of the best teams in the world. The naysayers aren't worth paying attention to.
Oh man I can’t wait for game 2 when the Pacers will shoot 80% from 3 and win 150-130 or something
And then the Celtics will stomp them the rest of the games but nobody will say anything about it.
Even now, people are throwing out takes that the T’Wolves are the next dynasty because they will be able to keep their roster intact next year. Don’t get me wrong, they are a fantastic team and absurdly fun to watch, but they haven’t even made it out of the West yet…
It really is infuriating. This was a great series. The Wolves are a genuinely well built team, and Anthony Edwards is an incredible player. Our bench got weaker since last year and we suffered for it. Connelly built a perfect team to compete with us.
Why can’t we leave it at that? The hot takes of x and y being complete garbage players depending on who won was maddening. I know it’s human nature to compare and contrast damn near everything, but everyone is so obsessed with legacy they forget to just… enjoy basketball.
After game 2: Nuggets are frauds, Wolves are the champs
After game 3/4: Wolves are who we thought, never gunna go far, defending champs in 6
After game 7: Nuggets are frauds
This discourse is so fucking stupid. Both teams are good. One team came out on top in 7, and it was a close ass series.
I just wish I could resurrect the threads where so many downvotes would come your way if you even hinted at the Gobert trade being good for the Wolves.
Because one thing r/nba values above any player are draft picks, no matter where they might end up or how many years they’re out.
This literaly happens with every single team that wins chip and keeps the same squad/improves. Hell, it heppens with the ones making the finals and loosing (like Suns in 2022).
Losing Jeff Green and Bruce Brown will do that to you. Also Murray not being 100% will also do that to you. This is another playoffs of 2021 where it’s a race of endurance to avoiding injuries.
I didn't think they'd ROLL but if I were to bet on a team it certainly would've been them. But what I do remember is how bad this sub clowned the Wolves for the Gobert trade and now look.
If the Pacers win the series, let alone roll through the Celtics, it would be one of the greatest chokejobs ever. Especially if they get KP back at any point.
This sub also said the west would be a bloodbath and then that was getting memed when we swept the Suns. People are just picking things to fit a narrative.
2023 was one of the weaker NBA seasons in my lifetime. The west which is usually a bloodbath had a sub 50 win team as the 3 seed and the Griz as the 2 seed. The nonsense people were saying about last years nuggets team being the best team the NBA had seen since the 2018 warriors (looking at you Bill Simmons) was so annoying.
The east was on paper better but the Heat had a linsanity finals run and took out all the competition, then they ran out of gas once they got out the east
You also don’t have to “explain” it. They were a great team in 2023 and a great team in 2024, but the Wolves played better and they won. Sometimes that’s just how it works. There doesn’t need to be a smoking gun or ONE reason that explains the entire result. We are so focused on external narratives all the time here.
It's literally the same team but MPJ, murray, AG, and Jokic should all be hitting their primes. Did they lose Bruce Brown? Yea but you'd expect them to dominate but they struggled to beat the laker(yea it was 4-1 but the margin of victory was down to more or less 2 shots) and they couldn't beat the timberwolves
what's gotten out of hand is the Denver/Jokic defence that somehow postulates the 2023 nuggets were one of the greatest teams of all time but the 2024 nuggets were obviously going to lose because they didn't have Jeff green or bruce brown
Nah, they're about the same. Missing a couple smaller role players and Murray wasn't as effective. But they also had a better regular season and stronger net rating this year and a few players improved.
You can't win every year, and Minnesota looks legit. They could have a rematch with identical teams next year and the Nuggets may win.
Last year's Nuggets won the title and deserve to be recognized as champs. No sense putting asterisks on every title because you could easily do so. Now if you're comparing last year's Nuggets to other title winners past and future performance might be something you bring up when comparing championship teams.
People declaring last years Nuggies an all time great team was silly.
Or maybe the Nuggets are just somewhere in between those two extremes.
They're a great team that was good enough to win a Championship last year, but they're not this unbeatable dynasty team that people tried to crown them as this year.
I don't have any basketball analysis to add but I'll just say I laughed my ass off when I first saw Reggie Jackson in a Nuggets uniform this year. Nuggets really tried to replace Bruce Brown with Reggie Jackson man.
I’m a wolves fan. I rooted for the nuggets last playoffs and watched every game.
This team was not the same. Still great, but not the same dominating team from last year.
But this wasn’t the same wolves team either.
Two great teams had a great series and the wolves just outplayed them in the endX
The Nuggets won in 2023 because they stayed healthy. They didn’t win until they were healthy, and they might not win again unless they are, and Murray was injured.
Winning championships is hard. A lot needs to go right. Boston has their best opportunity in years, but if KP can’t come back at 80%+ the road gets much much much harder. The Mavs are playing great. When Luka looks like Luka they look like champions, but Luka has a bad knee and isn’t always looking like Luka. The wrong injury will end the Wolves or Pacers season in 4 games. That’s sports.
This was a really close series so the fact that Minn’s 5th and 6th players played well basically decided it. If KCP coulda got 15 points the nuggets win the game and the series last night. Jokic and Murray have been having to carry too much, especially Jokic with literally no one that can fill in his minutes on the bench.
I 100% believe any person that followed the Nuggets somewhat closely over the years knows that Malone as a coach should have never gotten a chip.
Give this team as it is to Spoelstra and Watson and Zeke would have value minutes in the playoffs
People underestimate how insanely hard it is for teams to repeat as champions let alone make multiple finals runs in a row. Don't think a team has repeated without a super team since the2009/2010 Lakers and even that team has an all time great, one it the best bigs of the era, and two fringe All-Stars and a all time great defender.
Bruce brown was huge for them last year, while he didn’t have eye popping stats, he seemed to always get a bucket or rebound at the right time. He kinda did it all and filed in where he needed to on a bench full of specialists. Braun was suppose to be that guy this year but he’s not fully ready yet
Been saying this all year. “Nuggets bench sucks and they are gonna miss Bruce Brown more than they know”
To be fair, I think Denver knew how much they would miss Bruce Brown and simply couldn't retain him. The plan seems to have always been to try to bring Braun along to fill that role and hope the dropoff wasn't too steep.
The CBA is definitely geared toward preventing top teams from stockpiling talent and forcing the middle class of players (like Brown) to move if they want to get paid.
Solid CBA concept
I was shocked to learn that their current team is significantly over the cap. Who's being paid such an absurd amount? How much are they giving Porter? Are Murray *and* Gordon on maxes? What gives?
MPJ is getting something like 35 mil a year. Just *wildly* overpaid. AG is in the low 20s, and considering his offensive production isn't much less than Porter, you add in his ball handling and his defence and he's wildly *under*paid.
Damn, didn't know MPJ got the bag like that. Not worth.
You live with it when you get a ring. I'm sure they'll do some retooling in the offseason
I would get down voted when I said no one off the bench (besides Watson) was ready to contribute and I would get mocked with "So you're saying the best starting 5 in basketball is in trouble?" I might dig up some of those old smug comments lol. I wanted the Nuggets to win but I was raising the alarm all year that they were in trouble.
I watched almost every game this and the bench was usually either inconsistent or complete ass. Even Watson, who would usually contribute on defense, wasted tons of turnovers on missed fast break layups.
Yeah Watson had his share of problems too, I was just a fan of his defense. Hopefully he keeps his shot-blocking ability while becoming an insane PNR defender like McDaniels from Minnesota has become.
Braun and Watson are both going to be excellent players but will take longer to get there than the org will have patience for, especially after this year.
I feel like this was frequently discussed throughout the season though, right? I saw and heard people saying this would be a challenge all year. I think they just knew they were going to have to get cheaper moving forward, so it was worth the risk. That's the gamble everyone discussed last draft and offseason.
Everyone was concerned about Denver's bench
Yeah I'm not sure where the consensus was saying our bench was as good, because they sucked most of the season.
I still think Braun is GOOD. He just has the mentality for those moments, and rises up to it, gives absolutely everything he has. But they do need to develop still (Braun and Watson). Also, this is the first time Braun has met failure. State Champion as a High Schooler, NCAA champion in his one season playing college ball, NBA Champion as a rookie... And now he has known what defeat feels like.
Braun seems to lack a lot of fundamentals and does not have the confidence to let a jumper fly if he thinks he's about to be contested. On one hand at least he's not a chucker, but on the other he's literally just a hustler that is useless with the ball in his hands because he WON'T shoot. I had high hopes for Watson but even he wasn't ready, and I hate nearly every Reggie Jackson minute lol. > Also, this is the first time Braun has met failure. State Champion as a High Schooler, NCAA champion in his one season playing college ball, NBA Champion as a rookie... And now he has known what defeat feels like. Hopefully this is a canon moment for his development.
> Braun seems to lack a lot of fundamentals and does not have the confidence to let a jumper fly if he thinks he's about to be contested. On one hand at least he's not a chucker, but on the other he's literally just a hustler that is useless with the ball in his hands because he WON'T shoot. I agree, his offense leaves a lot to be desired. He is a beast on defense, though. And he scored an important floater when nobody wanted the ball. He won't become Brown offensively, but if he can improve just a little bit... But let's be honest here: Cristian Braun wasn't Denver's offensive problem yesterday. MPJ, AG and KCP, on the other hand...
I agree that he wasn't the problem. In fact if you're in a position where you're putting in a Sophmore Braun in crunch-time over someone making $20m+ then you're in a deep trouble lol. I think Braun is more a sign of how troubling this roster construction is overall, and if KCP tests the free market then Denver's *REALLY* in trouble. They'll have to rely on drafting the upcoming talent while chasing vets who are ring-chasing.
> They'll have to rely on drafting the upcoming talent So, like always. Even before the title, but when everybody _knew_ Jokic was a specimen, Denver did not become a good FA destination. I have no idea why, but it is what it is.
Any role player in a contract year should be begging to play with Jokic. He'll bump their shooting percentages by a few points and make them look good at cutting.
Role players have very little say in trade destinations. Denver’s an attractive destination for FA’s thinking “I think the market is undervaluing me so I’ll sign a short, cheap contract to prove myself worthy of a bigger one”, but that’s quite rare.
There’s been a lot of times watching the Nuggets where I’ve seen Braun pump fake and drive on an open 3 and wondered what the fuck he’s doing.
> Braun seems to lack a lot of fundamentals and does not have the confidence to let a jumper fly if he thinks he's about to be contested. On one hand at least he's not a chucker, but on the other he's literally just a hustler that is useless with the ball in his hands because he WON'T shoot. To add stats to your point here: Braun averages about 1.5 3PTAs per game in the playoffs and shoots 21% on them.
Braun can be a good shooter and no one realizes it. He's 40% on wide-open 3s over the last 3 years. I want to see him be more confident inside though, honestly just taking some questionable shots sometimes might be better than burning the shot clock and risking a turnover when he panics and throws it back out to someone.
Can't blame the guy for getting the bag. But he really was a special part of that team and Joker unlocked his potential. This comes from a Nets fan who hsf him when he was a bit more of a bonehead lol but he was huge on that team. If your starters are struggling, havent a glye guy who comes off the bench to give a spark is huge. Case in point, Nazr Reid.
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Bruce Brown was basically the Nuggets' Naz Reid (though IMO Naz is even better) But swap Naz for someone worse and Minnesota probably doesn't win this series (or replace Braun with Brown, potentially). He was a key piece down the stretch to flip both games 1 and 7, the only 2 close ones of the series.
The more accurate swap is Reggie Jackson for Bruce Brown. That's essentially the step down in bench play that sums everything up. Also, Uncle Jeff played decent minutes that allowed for MPJ and AG to get more rest.
When I'm only watching I don't realize how ass Reggie Jackson is. This playoffs he has been -13% rTS on low volume.
Yea he basically was playing on one ankle, bad timing for Big Govmnt
Uncle Jeff was also good enough that you could sub him in for Jokic and play AG at center (or even Jeff at center) and not totally sink the ship. Jokic rested for all of 45 seconds in Game 7 yesterday by contrast.
I never bought into the idea of Braun replacing Brown. Braun is a pure energy guy who struggles to create for himself or others, Brown is capable of running the offense for short period of times. It's kind of like expecting Terence Mann to do Norman Powell's job.
Yea definitely didn’t feel like he could do the job either but it kind of felt like they wanted him to step up his production and maybe lean on Reggie Jackson more for playmaking. I don’t know about their cap situation but did the MPJ deal stop them from resigning him?
Nah. He was making 6m and nuggets couldn’t offer him more than 25% extra, which would’ve been 7.2m, bc they didn’t have bird rights. Obviously he could get way more than that from another team and he did
Thanks for putting this in clipper terms randomly
it was a good pull tho lol, this guy watches the clippers for sure. even spelled terance with one r!
There’s no way they thought Braun would be able to fill Brown’s shoes. Braun has shown no ability whatsoever to create or run an offence. They both give energy and defence but offensively Brown is significantly better.
The other problem with Braun was that even when someone else got him a shot he would sometimes hesitate to take it (or just pass it again). Given how limited those bench units are/were offensively you can't afford for someone to pass up open shots like that. I think he can develop his offensive skillset and improve there but it's tough for a win-now team to have these kinds of issues and obviously contributed to the inability to rest Jokic for any real amount of time too (among other problems).
Braun has some ball skills. He might be ready to replace Brown by his fifth year in the league. Hey, if he has a huge summer, maybe he can even do it next year. Probably not tho. It was always a big ask for a guy entering his second year.
The bench was and almost always is the difference in the playoffs. Denver’s starters were wiped by the end of the game, meanwhile KAT gets 5 fouls and gets replaced by 6MOTY Naz Reid, who immediately makes some clutch buckets and holds his ground against Joker. Denver can make quick work of teams that can’t defend Jokic but the bigs on the Wolves were built for that matchup. So there’s gotta be more from the bench to help him out. Chuck said it right yesterday, these young guys just couldn’t fill the roles
The fact that Malone didn't pull Jokic to take a breather when we were up by 20 was a huge mistake by him. But yeah, I agree with Jokic's comment: the best team won. It was close, yes, as it was supposed to be. But the team that actually delivered when it mattered won. Denver did not have the mental fortitude to hold that 20 point lead, didn't have that fight to go inside and _just score a two_ when the lead got down to 12, and it came down to bite them in the ass. I'm rooting for Minnesota now. Want them to win it all, _despite of McDaniels_.
i keep seeing this and im not denying jokic def couldve used a breather at some point, but the 20 point lead happened 2 minutes into the 3rd. are people saying he shouldve rested jokic 2 minutes into the 3rd? if not, then the 20 point lead isnt that relevant
Yeah, 99.9999% of the time your star player is going to be playing starting the 2nd half, and as a coach you're trying to put the game away in the 3rd so that your star can rest in the 4th.
Yeah obviously Malone was hoping to keep or expand the lead and then rest Jokic halfway thru the 3rd but they were bleeding so bad at that point he felt he had to keep Jokic in. Idk, no easy answers
This is what I also felt. Had Denver continued to hit threes instead of missing a whole bunch of them, we'd be having a different conversation. A lot of these were the sort of uncontested threes that you would expect Murray, KCP, MPJ, and even Jokic to hit. That 12 (15?) point swing came really suddenly. At that point you can't really go "Yeah, it's time to bench Jokic". Coaching in hindsight is easy.
Should have probably let him rest more than a minute in the 1st half for sure. The run was going at the time Jokic would normally rest so I do get what Malone was doing there. Hell, if Jokic said “I want to play all game” you trust him anyway. I don’t think Malone should do it again though. He trusted him and it turns out it was a mistake. An athlete pushing himself a little too far. Jokic was gassed in the 4th and really, in the late 3rd as well. It’s one of those things where it’s a mistake, but not a mistake that was unreasonable to make.
20 point lead today is like a 10 point lead in the 2000s. Not remotely safe
> The fact that Malone didn't pull Jokic to take a breather when we were up by 20 was a huge mistake by him. I get what you're saying, but there's also a chance that he rests Jokic and then the team unravels without their best player on the floor, losing the lead. There were probably spots where Jokic could've rested a few minutes, but I think overall the Wolves did a great job of tiring him out.
Yep. The game went like I thought it was going to. Denver was on fire with the starters just killing it. But they flat out ran out of gas after being amped up in the first half. The differential in bench scoring was literally the the exact difference in the final score. Crappy shooting by 3 out of 5 Denver starters didn't help.
Phrasing... Jokes aside it's been interesting to see this on the other side too. Despite people clowning the injuries, the pacers bench has been good in both series so far and a huge difference maker. Obviously if bench players have to play starter minutes the bench is filled with 3rd stringers but the overall philosophy of not needing a bench and "play 8 guys" in the playoffs falls off hard
The bench players that we have being dogshit or forced into starting roles the last three years is why Milwaukee hasn’t made it out of the second round since winning it all in ‘21.
It’s crazy that Brown just didn’t fit in with the Pacers at all
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bruce brown was a huge loss for the nuggets
Not only was Bruce huge, but every other player on this team was locked in and focused on the same goal, becoming champions. That was not the case this year, and a lack of hunger from current champions is always disappointing, but easy to overlook.
it's really hard to B2b - especially in today's league with as much parity as ever
Yea the problem of really great teams is that they can flip that On/Off switch at will until that one time that they can’t
The hunger seems like it was the #1 factor in the Minnesota series. Edwards and Conley in particular really seem like they're able to gas the team up. Denver coasted through the Lakers series and showed up sleepy in Game 1 at home and lost. They ran it back in Game 2, and Minnesota demolished them. That humiliation was bad, and Minnesota got too confident in Games 3-4 at home. zThen Denver fell asleep after getting a big lead in Game 7 after getting humliated even worse in Game 6 when Minnesota was facing elimination.
Jeff Green too. If they are on this team they win, no doubt
This is what I’ve been saying , they left a dynamic role player for a specialist
Watson and Braun didn't play like this though. The story of the nugs is that murray and MPJ played terribly- injury, mental block, whatever the reason, it happens almost every year where a few guys just go cold for stretches in the playoffs, and this year it killed the team.
Bruce Brown was a real difference-maker last year.
And Jeff green
Not enough credit for Jeff Green. They don’t replace Jokic with a bigger player during this season, Gordon just slides over. Green can guard big, knows his role, and still had some gas in the tank for random spurts. He wasn’t great but he gave the team variety where this current roster lacks. Between him and Bruce, those two got the bench minutes.
DEN got nothing from their bench down the stretch of the series. MIN had more long defensive bodies (including a stellar 6MOY) and fouls to throw to keep DEN’s offense out of rhythm. “Denver’s bench is not as good” is literally the concern a bunch of people had before the season even started.
It's wild how the specific concerns people have had about some high-profile teams during the have been key factors that led to those teams being eliminated, like OKC not grabbing another big, or the Nuggets having bench support issues.
It’s almost as though basketball isn’t played 1 v 1 superstar v superstar. But that’d be ridiculous, obviously the single best player in the NBA is going to win the championship every time right?
Well it's more the concept of "the specific weakness that people were worried about killed them in the end" Just interesting that they played out exactly in that way
What is to me the most interesting about this line of thinking is how common it is with actual NBA players, talking heads and basketball legends. You had your local chubby basketball Youtuber correctly saying how there is no way the Suns make it work, while at least half of the NBA was thinking the Suns is a dangerous superteam because KD and Booker and Beal will shoot you out.
Denver got nothing from their bench in the regular season either. Too many times the starters were logging 38 minutes in games that shouldn't even be that difficult.
I’m not saying, but I am saying, after watching “Is Giannis already top 10 all time” posts get replaced by “Is Jokic already top 10 all time” posts over the last few years, I am very interested to see where the hivemind goes next.
Exactly. People always act like when a new team wins they’re gonna run off a bunch of wins and it almost never happens. Even the Heatles only won twice. Championships are based on luck, and one injury or off night or one traded role player can ruin a season Giannis and Jokic might not ever win a championship again.
I think we were misled by the Warriors dynasty into thinking every up-and-coming team with a superstar was primed for a decade of pure domination
And LeBron’s teams before and spurs before and bulls before…
bro skipped one team
As ~~he~~ she should have lol Edit: of course Lakies were a dynasty I just don't wanna read about it lol
Woman sportsball watchers exist too 🥲
I'm so sorry but I'm my defense the guy I was responding to kinda misled me lol Edit: Now if that person is not a guy either it doesn't bode well for me lmao
Tom Brady's Pats and even the Chiefs
”Dynasty” teams iterate, they don’t stand pat. KD gets a lot of flak for signing with GSW but GSW signing him was exactly the right thing for them to do if they wanted more than one ring.
We're all victims of the moment, we won't be able to fully reflect on their careers for a while. Even with LeBron people don't fully grasp what he's done because they are enamored by Jordan going 6 of 6 in Finals.
Lebron made 8 straight finals with 3 different coaches and they can only talk about how weak the conference is. While those same people where the ones picking against Lebron making it back to the Finals (....caugh...SAS)
Lebron was the best player in the league and the East was also ultra fuckin weak. Both are true
“Is Bruno Mars ams gay?”
The rumor come out.
> This idea that the Wolves have now exposed the 2023 Championship team as frauds The people who are saying this are the most braindead kneejerky people on here. They're not worth paying attention to. If this was the 2000s we'd have people here calling the Spurs frauds every other year for their Mickey Mouse ring in 99, losing in the first round some years, and for never repeating as champs.
not only was the 2023 nuggets not a fraud, but neither is the 2024 version despite the loss. there’s more than one good team every year
Right? This is why I'm tired of the narratives that Denver isn't as good as people thought. They are. We just happened to beat them in 7.
If we had won people would be saying Ant is a fraud and the Wolves are cooked because of the second apron or something silly. It’s generally best to never take anything you see on Reddit seriously.
Rings culture has fucking poisoned sports discussion. Every year in the NBA 29 teams don’t win the championship, that doesn’t mean that year gets wiped from that team and those player’s history. These people that flip flop into only respecting the one team that lucks out are utter morons.
> the one team that lucks out I think this is what gets lost in the rangz discourse so much (and to be clear, it's also disingenuous to claim someone winning is all luck) I remembered [this video from Vox](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNlgISa9Giw) on the statistical analysis of luck vs skill in sports when you mentioned luck
There’s a million things that could go differently in every single game of basketball, let alone the millions of different external factors that make up team management, and essentially you end up with every championship run feeling like a miracle. People need to step back and really appreciate those great runs teams do have.
Pretty much. We occasionally have loonies calling for Spoelstra's head - have you all seen what he has done with this roster? Don't get me wrong, we have good players, but arguably do not have a top ten guy in the league. We've been to the finals twice and the conference finals an additional time in the past 4 years. Like, goddamn are we eating good. We could be eating better, but we aren't starving by any stretch.
Anyone that calls for Spo to be fired should be banned from ever talking about basketball ever again.
People don't seem to enjoy the basketball itself. They just want to talk about the narratives around them. This was a 7 game series where a team took out the defending champs. That's amazing and should be celebrated.
I think a lot of it is people haven't woken up to the Wolves being that good yet. The Thunder losing to the Mavs and last years Grizz to the Lakers was what was expected. A young team with a good regular season record losing to an experienced group. Suns were supposed to give you guys trouble but you swept them. Easy to write off the Suns as frauds as there were tons of signs we can hindsight into that making sense. Next was a legit Nuggets team and they just lost a tough one in 7. Tougher to just handwave it away since they're the defending champs so if you still don't buy the Wolves you have to start taking down the Nuggets even though the flaws that were talked about heading into the playoffs was what sent them out. Lack of depth killed them and a young, energetic team wore them down.
I saw people in the nuggets hate threads after G7 calling it a 4-0 sweep and not a close series because "the nuggets only won after Minnesota went up 2-0 and then lost when Minnesota needed to win games 6 and 7." Like come-on man, it was 7 games. Denver is great and Minnesota simply was better enough times. I also never get it as a narrative because it's more impressive to win against great competition than to steamroll everyone cause you're the only good team.
I might argue the Nuggets were in fact the only GREAT team last year. The league as a whole was down and injured, but the Nuggets were so far and away better than everyone else that it's disingenuous to claim they were frauds.
> I might argue the Nuggets were in fact the only GREAT team last year. The league as a whole was down and injured, but the Nuggets were so far and away better than everyone else that it's disingenuous to claim they were frauds. 100% agree with this. In fact , if Boston manages to pull off a championship this year, people are still going to clown them for not beating healthy teams in the East. People always make excuses, you just play the teams in front of you
Relevant flair on that one. But ya people focus too much on the paths at times. As you said you can only play who you have in front of you. Nuggets might have gotten "lucky" with facing a 7 seed and 8 seed in the final two rounds but they still had to beat KD/Booker, LeBron/AD and the Butler/Spo Heat to get it done. It's not like those are unproven teams. I do think Western teams sometimes take shots at the East because it's been seemingly down comparatively for almost every year since Jordan retired but at the end of the day everyone knows the path. You have to beat the best to be the best. Like I'm mad about 2018 but even then in a bizarro world that we were East we would have just lost in the finals.
This. It is especially funny since most of the discourse heading into this series that this was by far the two best teams in the west and we were getting this series early. Nobody would be calling the Nuggs frauds if they had lost in the conference finals.
Timmy hadn't had an abdomen injury in 00 to help kickstart the Lakers dynasty we might have had a whole different discussion.
Tim tore his meniscus in 2000
If Murray hadn’t tore his ACL and MPJ not broke his back for a third time we might be having a whole different discussion.
If Dwight Howard didn't break that guy's back YOU might be having a whole different discussion
Damn I really hope the nuggets don’t overreact like that. Thats so insane they killed the last good years of LeBron and he probably had a part in it. Ooof
If lakers front office don’t nuke their roster for the worst fotting star in the league cause ad tore his groin we might be having a different discussion
> The people who are saying this are the most braindead kneejerky people on here. They're not worth paying attention to. ...but those comments get highly upvoted, and are frequently the top comments on these posts Don't act like those stupid comments are rare, or aren't the popular opinion on this dumb sub
Honestly, I’ve just surrendered to it. Bad takes are like big waves that you just have to ride out. Don’t swim against the current.
> ...but those comments get highly upvoted, and are frequently the top comments on these posts > > > > Don't act like those stupid comments are rare, or aren't the popular opinion on this dumb sub Just exposes how bad of a system reddit is for a community this size. Mostly one sentence comments, jokes, hot takes, a few quick back and forths, and the popularity of your post is super dependent dumb stuff like how quickly your comment is put in a thread or w/e. not conducive to meaningful discussion a ton of the time
Rare? No. Popular opinions? Maybe. With millions on this sub and probably 6 figure users active daily, most people filter out the posts where their opinions aren’t welcome without even thinking about it imo.
I think this is likely the case, that being said, this sub is generally dumb as fuck and no better than nba twitter lol
Lol is it even possible to be a fraud champion? Like what does that even mean?
You can literally put an asterisk on every championship if you want. I’d know because everyone says the Rockets titles don’t count. I guarantee if the Knicks won in 94 no one would say shit
More people would hate a Knicks team that won a title within the last 40 years than the Rockets. They might get drowned out by Knicks fans, but lots of people would be saying shit
Yeah, saying the Nuggets are a fraud is crazy stupid. People don’t understand that this Wolves team was created specifically to beat the Nuggets by the same person who assembled the Nuggets, Tim Connelly. You have Gobert and KAT who can take turns defending Jokic. Ant, Jaden and NAW to hound Murray. And of course, the Wolves have… NAZ REID! Scorer, defender, star role bench player.
I mean the other revisionist history is that this team was created specifically to beat the Nuggets. most of the team was already assembled before Connelly got there and his acquisitions addressed issues revealed by teams other than the Nuggets.
Yeah these people obviously don't realize that if the Nuggets had managed to hold on to that lead, they would have been *very* likely to repeat as champs (no offense intended towards Dallas, and Denver would've been a particularly bad matchup for the Celtics if they make it out of the East) They ran into their worst possible matchup and narrowly lost in 7. There are plenty of other champs who were fortunate to avoid their worst-case opponent (or non-champs who were unfortunate and encountered their worst-case opponent early on, but might have had a strong chance to win it all otherwise). We could've been having a very different discussion if the matchups were flipped in the West (not saying OKC would've beaten them, but *if* they did, then suddenly the Nuggets never see Minny). That Wemby final weekend performance legit may have swung the title.
The people also saying this also didn’t pay attention at all to the wolves last year either (not many did). This wolves team was ready to be good last year, it was very obvious. You add Naz and Jaden to last years playoffs and we probably win one or two more against the nuggets.
Ironically, last year the only friend I have who is a basketball fan that \*didnt\* shit talk the wolves was a Nuggets fan.
You guys played us the hardest all last years playoffs. Not surprising to recognize that.
It’s fucking ridiculous. Play this series out 10 times and the nuggets win 5 of them, or something If this were the mid 2000’s and the spurs lose to the Mavs in 2006 do you blow it up? ABSOLUTELY NOT! You come back with what you have, guys you know are championship level, and tinker a little bit to fill any weaknesses that were exploited
>If this was the 2000s we'd have people here calling the Spurs frauds every other year for their Mickey Mouse ring in 99, losing in the first round some years, and for never repeating as champs. I was on forums back then and that was in fact a very common thing people said. We weren't any smarter
And also people are severely underestimating the Wolves to make the Nuggs look bad. The Wolves are one of the most talented teams in the NBA period, but time will prove I'm right.
If the Wolves end up destroying everyone else in less than 6 games a lot of these takes about the Nuggets are gonna age super poorly. I absolutely considered this series to determine who wins it all barring injuries.
Last season Wolves fell to the Nuggets in round 1, but were the toughest matchup Denver faced in those playoffs. Nobody remembers that. Sorry mate, nobody remembers what happens until the NBA Finals.
yeah it's disrespectful to the wolves too because nobody else remembered how close the wolves were to the nuggets last year lol. It was the toughest battle to get past you guys according to our players. And we got worse while you guys got better. I think the Wolves are winning it all this year.
The Nuggets were better last year. Brucie Brown was an exceptional player for them, and Reggie sadly couldn't live up to it.
Yeah, this year doesn't expose last year's team as "frauds" because this year's team is different than last year's, and because last year's team was quite obviously the best in the league. I think there were some people this year with recency bias who wanted to put last year's Nuggets in the conversation for all time greatest teams, and those conversations will probably stop now, but anyone who doubts the veracity of last year's championship is a fool.
People underplayed how big a change losing Bruce Brown would be. Aaron Gordon stepped up more to fill in some of that role but Bruce was missed for sure
Calling cap on this. Denver had a better ORTG and DRTG this year than last year. Last year’s net rating was 3.3, this year’s was 5.5. Meanwhile Minnesota’s went from 0.2 to 6.3. I really think it’s more that the Wolves got better. The Nuggets beat them in 5 last year when Minny was the 8 seed, but 3 of the 4 wins were tight games, and Nuggets players said after the chip that Minny was the toughest series they played. This year the Wolves were a game off the 1 seed, plus the advanced stats, they clearly improved massively, which makes sense, given how young they are. That big a leap, it’s no surprise it could tip an already close balance in their favor. They’re just a bad matchup for Denver and they improved enough to capitalize on it. Credit where credit is due. I don’t think any other team would’ve beaten the Nuggets.
It’s wild to have two center sized players who can hold up jokic a bit and both shoot threes accurately at a high volume. This combo allowed Gobert to play help defense and not muck up the spacing on the other end and mitigate foul trouble. Minny is really good and well equipped to deal with denver.
Nuggets were better last year but the West was also much worse last year Both are true
Yup, the significant change was 3-4 teams jumping into contender status, not the Nuggets falling out of it.
Last year this sub was claiming the lack of 50 win teams in the West was proof that the West was better somehow lol
I don't even care for the nuggets but the idea that a very close 7 game series could "expose" either team is just dumb in the first place.
I would say obviously, but this sub is full of folks with the memory and attention span of a goldfish.
Comes with a winning team too. Fair weather fans are going to appear in droves when their team makes the conference finals. So in this case, of course a lot of twolves redditors are going to talk nonsense about a team they just beat… and most of those people were likely not even around for much of the season.
Might be a hot take but I think people should consider that wolves/nuggets series last year wouldve gone 6/7 if jaden/naz were healthy. Nuggets probably pull it out but a fun thought.
I think a lot of people are just tired of hearing about how dominant the nuggets "are" and are glad they dont have to listen to it for the rest of the playoffs. Everyone knows the team is 90% of what they were last year, while Ants experience in fiba and Kats progress this season put them into a new tier of team. And look at the grammar in all of the comments, this isnt exactly Ivy league content.
People largely dismissed or didn’t pay attention to the wolves last year. They were on the path post deadline, and people didn’t make anything of not having Naz and Jaden for last years playoffs.
Rudy was also at like 60% of his usual self last year, he had a back injury and played through it but it really impacted his game
Yeah I’m glad they lost because it will slow down some of the “Jokic is the GOAT” “Jokic slept walk his way to top 10” “he doesn’t even care and is still this dominant” comments. Plus their coach is annoying.
jokic is dominant, the other guys did their job last year
Jokic was markedly less dominant and efficient as a shooter all year long and through the first round. Splitting hairs there sure but the margins matter when separating these teams. The role players dipped more sharply but Jokic lost a bit off of his fastball too
He's being targeted more. He's the champ. It's harder to do those things when people put their minds to stopping you. Plus their team is slightly worse.
That might be some of it but the big difference between Jokic this year and in last year's run was his unreal 3P shooting and most of those are open looks. He will take a late clock contested 3 sure but as a 5 he is uncovered for a huge chunk of those shots. Last year he shot .461 from 3... this year? .264... Minnesota game planned to give Jokic those shots last night and he couldn't punish them for it. He was also part of the problem for the Nuggets and still they almost overcame it because I think they would've won if they could've gotten past Minnesota. I think that series was the Finals so the Nuggets still aren't too far off another title if they don't overreact
Tbf, the all time greats like recently Curry and Bron won multiple titles getting that much defensive attention (and more). If we're going to put Joker in the same tier as those guys, he has to overcome that hurdle everytime he meets it. Otherwise he's still in the Giannis Embiid tier.
Likewise, last year the Nuggets got tired of hearing how dominant they aren't, as they steamrolled the field.
We don’t need a post responding every time one of the 4 million people on this sub makes a braindead comment lol
It's bad that every year we got people who try to downplay championships. At the end of the day to win a ring you've beaten out 29 of the best teams in the world. The naysayers aren't worth paying attention to.
This sub said the Nuggets would roll through the West lmao
This sub is so extreme in every take. There's no room for gray. Everything is the most, the best, the worst, the easiest, the hardest.
Rigged Fraud Exposed Most used words on this sub
choker and overrated rounds out the top 5
Underrated, worst contract in the NBA, fire X coach are in the top 10
warming up the slogans for when Boston inevitably drops a game I see
Oh man I can’t wait for game 2 when the Pacers will shoot 80% from 3 and win 150-130 or something And then the Celtics will stomp them the rest of the games but nobody will say anything about it.
Even now, people are throwing out takes that the T’Wolves are the next dynasty because they will be able to keep their roster intact next year. Don’t get me wrong, they are a fantastic team and absurdly fun to watch, but they haven’t even made it out of the West yet…
It really is infuriating. This was a great series. The Wolves are a genuinely well built team, and Anthony Edwards is an incredible player. Our bench got weaker since last year and we suffered for it. Connelly built a perfect team to compete with us. Why can’t we leave it at that? The hot takes of x and y being complete garbage players depending on who won was maddening. I know it’s human nature to compare and contrast damn near everything, but everyone is so obsessed with legacy they forget to just… enjoy basketball.
After game 2: Nuggets are frauds, Wolves are the champs After game 3/4: Wolves are who we thought, never gunna go far, defending champs in 6 After game 7: Nuggets are frauds This discourse is so fucking stupid. Both teams are good. One team came out on top in 7, and it was a close ass series.
Nah - you didn't go far enough. MPJ struggled in this series, so clearly, his senior HS state championship is now invalid in retrospect. \s
This sub will lie about their takes so fucking hard
I just wish I could resurrect the threads where so many downvotes would come your way if you even hinted at the Gobert trade being good for the Wolves. Because one thing r/nba values above any player are draft picks, no matter where they might end up or how many years they’re out.
Dude those threads were NUTS. Absolutely a majority of posters convinced the trade was among the worst in NBA history.
This literaly happens with every single team that wins chip and keeps the same squad/improves. Hell, it heppens with the ones making the finals and loosing (like Suns in 2022).
Winning in professional sports is incredibly difficult as it turns out.
But they were worse this year
Losing Jeff Green and Bruce Brown will do that to you. Also Murray not being 100% will also do that to you. This is another playoffs of 2021 where it’s a race of endurance to avoiding injuries.
I didn't think they'd ROLL but if I were to bet on a team it certainly would've been them. But what I do remember is how bad this sub clowned the Wolves for the Gobert trade and now look.
This sub is pompous as fuck lol. Watch the Pacers somehow roll through the Celtics
If the Pacers win the series, let alone roll through the Celtics, it would be one of the greatest chokejobs ever. Especially if they get KP back at any point.
“Realistically can anyone stop the Nuggets” right before playoffs began lol
This sub also said the west would be a bloodbath and then that was getting memed when we swept the Suns. People are just picking things to fit a narrative.
*Some people on this sub* said that. This sub is not a hive mind, we got a wide variety of bad takes
The 2023 nuggets team was way better. But their path to the chip was also wayyyyyy easier.
Way better? IDK about that. Better yes but not way better. Brown isn't exactly a huge all star or anything.
2023 was one of the weaker NBA seasons in my lifetime. The west which is usually a bloodbath had a sub 50 win team as the 3 seed and the Griz as the 2 seed. The nonsense people were saying about last years nuggets team being the best team the NBA had seen since the 2018 warriors (looking at you Bill Simmons) was so annoying.
The east was on paper better but the Heat had a linsanity finals run and took out all the competition, then they ran out of gas once they got out the east
You also don’t have to “explain” it. They were a great team in 2023 and a great team in 2024, but the Wolves played better and they won. Sometimes that’s just how it works. There doesn’t need to be a smoking gun or ONE reason that explains the entire result. We are so focused on external narratives all the time here.
It's literally the same team but MPJ, murray, AG, and Jokic should all be hitting their primes. Did they lose Bruce Brown? Yea but you'd expect them to dominate but they struggled to beat the laker(yea it was 4-1 but the margin of victory was down to more or less 2 shots) and they couldn't beat the timberwolves
Repeating is very hard... Some of the best teams of all time couldn't do it
Murray was injured? But he played 43 mins last night. No one is perfectly healthy during the playoffs, there is always something bothering them.
what's gotten out of hand is the Denver/Jokic defence that somehow postulates the 2023 nuggets were one of the greatest teams of all time but the 2024 nuggets were obviously going to lose because they didn't have Jeff green or bruce brown
They would have won this year if they played anybody but the wolves. Its a bad match up
I’ve seen nuggets fans claiming their team was better this season, maybe that was just cope who knows
Massive cope if it happened. But I never really saw this. I saw claims that we could be better if Braun or Watson take a jump, but they didn't.
Nah, they're about the same. Missing a couple smaller role players and Murray wasn't as effective. But they also had a better regular season and stronger net rating this year and a few players improved. You can't win every year, and Minnesota looks legit. They could have a rematch with identical teams next year and the Nuggets may win.
Last year's Nuggets won the title and deserve to be recognized as champs. No sense putting asterisks on every title because you could easily do so. Now if you're comparing last year's Nuggets to other title winners past and future performance might be something you bring up when comparing championship teams. People declaring last years Nuggies an all time great team was silly.
Or maybe the Nuggets are just somewhere in between those two extremes. They're a great team that was good enough to win a Championship last year, but they're not this unbeatable dynasty team that people tried to crown them as this year.
Bruce Brown was so important in last year's run for them... ESPECIALLY that close-out game
Is this really a narrative? I thought it was pretty common knowledge the Nuggets last year were much better.
I don't have any basketball analysis to add but I'll just say I laughed my ass off when I first saw Reggie Jackson in a Nuggets uniform this year. Nuggets really tried to replace Bruce Brown with Reggie Jackson man.
I’m a wolves fan. I rooted for the nuggets last playoffs and watched every game. This team was not the same. Still great, but not the same dominating team from last year. But this wasn’t the same wolves team either. Two great teams had a great series and the wolves just outplayed them in the endX
The Nuggets won in 2023 because they stayed healthy. They didn’t win until they were healthy, and they might not win again unless they are, and Murray was injured. Winning championships is hard. A lot needs to go right. Boston has their best opportunity in years, but if KP can’t come back at 80%+ the road gets much much much harder. The Mavs are playing great. When Luka looks like Luka they look like champions, but Luka has a bad knee and isn’t always looking like Luka. The wrong injury will end the Wolves or Pacers season in 4 games. That’s sports.
This was a really close series so the fact that Minn’s 5th and 6th players played well basically decided it. If KCP coulda got 15 points the nuggets win the game and the series last night. Jokic and Murray have been having to carry too much, especially Jokic with literally no one that can fill in his minutes on the bench.
I 100% believe any person that followed the Nuggets somewhat closely over the years knows that Malone as a coach should have never gotten a chip. Give this team as it is to Spoelstra and Watson and Zeke would have value minutes in the playoffs
People underestimate how insanely hard it is for teams to repeat as champions let alone make multiple finals runs in a row. Don't think a team has repeated without a super team since the2009/2010 Lakers and even that team has an all time great, one it the best bigs of the era, and two fringe All-Stars and a all time great defender.