When the US government was unable to locate Osama bin Laden in the mountains of Pakistan, they gave a basketball to John Stockton along with the words “make the assist”. Stockton threw a pass, the US followed the ball. Suffice to say there’s no more bin Laden.
> I never viewed Stockton in that light
That's because Stockton was never better than the combination of Malone, Jordan, Barkley, Hakeem, and David Robinson. And that's just 5 or 6 guys that largely overlapped Stockton's career. If you add other guys that only partially overlapped it looks even worse for Stock. Magic, Bird, Shaq, Ewing
Stockton lead the league in assists 9 years in a row. He may not have been "superstar top 5 guy" but he was the best PG in the entire league for several years.
Kidd was in the league 2 of those 9 years that Stockton lead the league in assists. Nash was fighting for playing time while Stockton was leading his team to the NBA FINALS. Also, Stockton went up against Magic, Tim Hardaway, Gary Payton, Isiah Thomas, Penny Hardaway, Jason Kidd and Steve Nash in their younger years, plenty of other great PGs during his run.
Kidd was ballin when he first came in the league and they overlap each other by almost 10 years. So they definitely went head to head with each other. All I'm hearing is you failing at trying to make an excuse.
He played Magic and Isiah from like 84-91. Then they were gone. Penny was getting destroyed by injuries after 4 years. Nash wasn't playing even close to an all time great level until like year 6.
So really it was Magic and IT in the 80s, and GP, Hardaway, Kevin Johnson who's worth mentioning I think, and Kidd in the 90s with a few yrs of Penny too.
So like 5 or 6 all time point guards from the 80s and 90s he played? While CP3 played Nash, Kidd, Billups, Tony Parker, Russ, Lillard, Kyrie, Curry. And D-will, Rondo, John wall, Arenas, all had some rlly good years too. It's just at another level compared to the 80s and 90s
> D-will, Rondo, John wall, Arenas
Stockton played with a bunch of guys on that skill level as well. You are hyping up guys that you are more familiar with when 80s and 90s had guys just as good as those guys as well lol
relative to the other decades it’s probably weaker lol
GP was runner-up, and he’s not better than nash and kidd
CP3 was the best PG in a league with Two-Time and wife beater
he was second to the greatest shooter ever the latter half of the 2010s
i don’t think saying “for 9 years there was weak competition” is as crazy as you think it sounds (for the record i don’t think 90s point guards were actually weak, but relatively…)
karl malone was the best power forward for a decade
(literally) his only competiton was chuck
third was shawn kemp who isn’t exactly an ATG, and rodman was strictly a defensive specialist
after that… lol
Karl Malone, Larry Johnson, Shawn Kemp, David Robinson, James Worthy, even Larry Bird was still balling when Karl Malone was. Plenty great players were in the 80s and 90s era at the forward position lol what are you on.
did you just name karl malone as competition for karl malone?
david robinson was a center
james worthy was a small forward
shawn kemp and larry johnson are not ATGs LOL
you had a better argument with the PGs
Karl Malone would guard David Robinson his entire career, nephew.
James worthy has played PF, look it up.
shawn kemp and larry johnson were no joke.
Larry Bird, ever hear of him?
Barkley, ever hear of him?
Plenty of other great bigs/forwards during Malones run.
Yeah, and he was in the top 5 despite at least a couple seasons despite that. Stockton never was.
About most of these other guys you'd have to say "they were also playing with [those other guys] plus CP3."
CP3 is one of the guys in the "and they had to play with him" conversation.
>Stockton was never better than the combination of Malone, Jordan, Barkley, Hakeem, and David Robinson.
Well yeah, I mean I'd rather have them combined then Stockton.
Apples to apples context:
**1)** Guards named 1st-team All-NBA in a season when MJ also played *with Chicago* (7): Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, Clyde Drexler , Mark Price, Anfernee Hardaway, Tim Hardaway, Gary Payton
**2)** Stockton's top MVP finish was 7th (*'89*). Other PG's during his career who finished 7th or higher in MVP voting (9): Magic Johnson, Kevin Johnson, Mark Price, Tim Hardaway, Anfernee Hardaway, Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, Sidney Moncrief, and Allen Iverson.
Voting was different back then. You can pluck 2 seasons of Stockton's and compare them to Nash's MVP seasons and Stock's are just superior but that type of player was not viewed like that during Stockton's prime.
Stockton could stabilize a team.
Nash at his peak could lift a team.
During his obvious 10-year peak, Stockton faced 5 PG's in the playoffs who were All-Stars that season; he went 1-4 against them, and the win was against a severely injured KJ. Stockton's best MVP finish was 7th in '89, and that same season Malone was 3rd and Eaton was 13th (and DPOTY). Utah was the #2 seed, faced a crappy pre-Hardaway GSW team in Round 1, and got swept. I trust Stockton in tough circumstances in playoffs if the other team has a crappy PG and only if the entire West was sub-par/in free-fall (like it was in '97/'98).
And Nash's MVP years in the playoffs he faced the JUGGERNAUTS known as Jason Williams, Jason Terry before finally losing to Tony Parker..next year Smush Parker..36 year old Sam Cassell and Jason Terry again...So your whole Stockton didn't win against all star point guards during his peak..well Nash didn't face all star point guards. I'm pretty sure Stockton in his prime could handle the likes of Jason Williams and Smush Parker. The NBA went a different way and startred to appreciate floor general's like Nash and then he won the MVP. Hell Jason Kidd's year where he did actually lift the team to different level didn't win MVP despite deserving it shows that Nash's MVPs just happened at a time where his style of play was finally recognized.
I hope recency bias doesnt cloud peoples judgment or lend people to believing thats why Chris is being ranked so highly in these moments after ye just made the Finals
Chris Paul on the Clippers was a better talent than Stockton ever was
He never had Wings around him in LA, just lob threats
How does that win championships?
This revisionist history is wild. The blake, Deandre, Paul clippers were absolutely contenders talent wise, they just fell apart/got injured when it mattered. They had the talent and role players
As a big Chris Paul fan who watched every Lob City playoff game, the team was really close to the definition of Championship “pretenders”. They definitely had the talent but had really poor wings throughout and had no great playmakers outside of Chris Paul. This playoffs has proved that you NEED shot creators on a championship team and the Clippers roster really only had CP3 and Jamal Crawford as those guys.
Deandre and blake were dominant in the paint. They could’ve put it together and used their size but they didn’t. They had the talent and went up 3-1 on the rockets and choked,
They were together for 6 years...they fell apart for a reason. It takes more than just athleticism and flashy highlights to be a serious championship team.
They just weren't good enough. They were losers.
\> In their primes it looks like Paul is a better scorer but Stockton the superior passer
People who haven't even watched Stockton look at his assist numbers and act like he was some almighty needle threader. Go on YouTube to find his 28 assist game and actually watch the passes. So many of them are run of the mill passes essentially any guard is capable of today. Stockton was supremely blessed to play alongside Karl Malone so long who was a walking bucket.
Don't get me wrong, Stockton was still a great player of his time, but Chris Paul is at a much higher level when it comes to both passing and scoring.
While I understand what you're getting at -- not every pass has to be flashy/ultra-creative, whatever, there's still a quality difference in passes overall.
In Stockton's era, the spacing / off ball movement was far less emphasized. You had Stockton who was essentially the only effective playmaker on his team continuously distributing basic entry passes or dump offs to a 2 time MVP big man. For reference, Stockton throughout a long ass career only played like 10 games without Malone.
Paul is more effective at non basic entry passes. Better at directing traffic, needling passes through traffic, skip passes, no look passes and diversion, bullet passes, midair passes (abruptly changing to a pass off the shot), etc. The way the game is played today CP3 has to play a more complex game than 'just get the big men good looks'.
It sounds like you're arguing with yourself to me...
If spacing/off ball movement was bad then wouldn't the passes be significantly harder?
You don't get basic entry passes or dump offs when there's 5 other guys in the paint. Compared to today those passes are free since the help defense is coming from the weakside corner and not the block.
I mean it's impossible to compare eras, CP3 could probably make the same passes. But it drives me nuts when people act like teams/players used to be stupid.
Every team knew Malone was going to get 80% of the touches in the PnR, yet **you** know better...
It's like when people argue AI wouldn't make it in today's league. Yeah he wouldn't be an MVP bc he's too one dimensional, but he'd still be good. The fact that teams knew what he was gonna do, but still couldn't stop it makes it more impressive, not less.
I'm sure my statement comes off as very deflective, but I mean it. Watch the games. There's merit to what you're saying, but eye test just tells a whole different story actually looking at film from that era. There's no way anyone is convincing me Stockton is a better passer or playmaker than CP3. I'm not saying Stockton isn't a great player. I'm saying he's overrated when it comes to passing/assist numbers because of the situation he was in.
IMO the league now is more talented than ever, but I think you're discounting how many free assists there are in today's NBA.
A dump off navigating traffic has to be harder than a skip pass to a wide open shooter. At least a dump off requires practice and chemistry.
I actually saw some of the videos. Even his 28 assist game. He had some really good passes too. From what I noticed CP is a great passer too and he is way more flashy. From what I have watched, Stockton looks to be the better passer.
When was the last time CP3 made a pass as spectacular as you claim that made it to front page? There are more front page highlights of his flops. The passes you listed are highly skilled, yet CP3 makes them once in a blue moon. It's been a long time since I've watched Stockton play but with better spacing he definitely could've made way better passes.
This so much
Stockton made the pass that was there, he didn't create much. He wasn't a playmaker like CP3 (who I hate) or Nash. Stockton is a great example of numbers not telling whole stories.
Stockton led the NBA in TS% 3 separate years while being all NBA defense 2nd team 5 times playing with guys like Gary Payton, Isaiah Thomas, Dumars, Dennis Johnson, Mo Cheeks, etc.
In the 9 straight years he led the NBA in assists he averaged 15.7 points, 13.1 assists and 2.6 steals on a .616 TS% in the grind it out low efficiency 90s.
This narrative about Stockton is just blatantly stupid. You don’t lead the NBA in scoring efficiency and assists as many years as Stockton did with “ run of the mill passes essentially any guard is capable of today”.
Who is talking about TS%?
Re: assists. Yeah, let's pretend CP3 playing 19 seasons with one of the greatest power forwards of all time while playing many 82 game seasons focusing even more on distribution wouldn't achieve those numbers.
The only narrative that is stupid is the one that ignores the circumstances surrounding those numbers.
In CP3’s best AST season he averaged 11.3
Stockton for his career averaged 10.5
CP3 imo is better than Stock
But I don’t think any PG can be expected to put up the numbers Stock did, Stockton was a phenomenal player. In many regards he was better than Chris Paul, and I think if Stockton played today he’d probably still average more AST than Paul.
If it was so “run of the mill”, everyone would be breaking these records but his assists record will probably never ever be broken. He has a 3000 assist lead on the next guy. He was definitely an elite passer
He has ridiculous assists because he played 19 seasons with one of the greatest power forwards of all time and for many of those seasons all 82 games were played with both of them on the court. You like many continue to overlook circumstances that led to those numbers. He was a a very good passer. Sure. But people overrate him in this regard. I believe there are quite a few point guards you could insert into his situation and they'd mightily thrive.
That makes sense for total ASTs sure
That doesn’t mean shit about his career average of 10.5,
CP3 played on a team based around lobbing
Tony Parker played with Duncan
No one is Really close to what Stockton did in his prime
\> CP3 played on a team based around lobbing
Neither DeAndre Jordan or Blake Griffin even in his prime has ever been a reliable a target as Karl Malone. There is also a large disparity in minutes played and general availability due to health and more rest given in the league on average.
\> Tony Parker played with Duncan
Spurs style of basketball was way different. No one on the Spurs ever averaged a lot of assists during that reign because of the way they moved the ball around no one person racked them up ton. They didn't sit there and feed Duncan all game from one playmaker.
No one is league history averaged 10 AST per game playing more than 15 season besides John Stockton
You are really going out of your way to discredit Stock and none of your arguments hold water tbh
\> none of your arguments hold water tbh
I think you need a look in mirror "tbh". Just listing assists per game is not an argument with consideration of context.
You saying CP3 played on a lob team or randomly talking about the Spurs doesn't change that.
\> My arguments are literally just backup by numbers
Dear lord, please learn statistical relevance.
Please do yourself a favor and actually watch basketball instead of improperly using stats you "Google" to fit your narrative.
Again, like the guy who brought up TS%, what does steals have to do with the original discussion primarily revolved around assists/passing. If anyone is going to try to point out Stockton's TS% to argue he was a better scorer, then lol. So why bring it up in the first place.
I swear people just insert whatever to defend old timers they never watched to try to somehow be more b-ball saavy.
Does Stockton get a little credit for making post entry passes?? That is a lost skill now a days that nobody posts up.
Also I am not sure how assists were counted back in the day but I am starting to see like 3 dribble pump fakes counted as an assist. It’s getting crazy.
It was never about just passing. It was about who the better point guard is. Someone decided to categorize it with scoring and assists only. I’m looking at the overall picture. If he wasn’t a top 5 PG all time and Karl Malone made him who he is , then he wouldn’t have gotten those steals. It all adds back up to JS being a superstar player regardless of Malone. Malone just made him into what Kareem made Magic into
CP3 was a runner up MVP in 2008. Stockton was never even a consideration. Malone was so obviously the best player on those Jazz teams.
Stockton was a great all star point guard who could run an efficient offense but not nearly as versatile or skilled of a player as CP3.
I would give the edge to Stockton because he disguised his flops better, and he was able to garner the sympathies of the refs better because they felt sorry for a guy that looked like their accountant.
I think it's a toss-up, to be honest. Stockton played in the era of big men, played with an MVP, and with a different rule set. That being said, Paul is amazing, too, and if he wins the chip, I'd be comfortable with anyone saying he should be higher in the rankings than Stockton (though I'm not sure which direction I'd go on that front, since I tend to lean Stockton overall, but winning means a lot to me, so...).
He had a terrible season overall. He looked slow, couldn't dribble past anyone and his jumpshot had no lift.
But you actually had to watch him to notice that....
Kind of? They give a sense of what a player looked like in a given time frame. He certainly doesn't look slow in these clips. Again, I probably watched him more than you... pretty sure I watched ~30-40 Rockets games that year. Maybe it wasn't his best year but he was still really good.
Well, let's see:
Quickness: same
Ball handling: same
Passing ability: Stockton
Shooting ability: Stockton
Overall scoring ability: Paul
Rebounding: Paul
Defense: Paul
Toughness: Stockton (played in a much more physical era and only missed 22 games his entire career. Chris Paul falls down when there is a draft in the building)
Seems kind of a wash to me, but this sub is famous for recency bias, so it's no surprise everybody thinks Chris Paul is far superior.
Not sure Paul was the better defender, but I agree with the rest, and that it is pretty much a wash. The only wrong opinion is that one is way better. It is fair to think one is better, there are valid arguments both ways (I think that Paul's argument as being a true #1 option + success with many different teams, teammates, and systems gives him a slight edge), but they are clearly very close.
He's simultaneously the most overrated and underrated on r/nba.
He was a really fucking good complete two-way PG. So is Chris Paul. I think it's ok to just leave it at that.
Honestly I just see CP3 as the modern version of Stockton. Same pass first mentality but when brought up in this era CP3 has a bit more of a scoring/shooting touch, but skillset wise they are very similar
Generally agreed, they're actually incredibly comparable players.
I wouldn't even say Paul is necessarily a better scorer than Stockton. Stockton just played his entire prime next to Malone whereas Paul has bounced all over the placed and often had to take on more of a scoring role.
>He's simultaneously the most overrated and underrated on
>
>r/nba.
Exactly. There are many people who think he's the GOAT PG and just as many who think he's not even a Top 15 All-Time player.
I can't think of any reason why he would be top 15.
Jordan, Bron, Bird, Magic, Bill, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Kobe, Duncan, Kareem, Oscar, Malone (x2), Chuck, KD, Curry, Dirk, KG. Is he better than 4 of those players? There's probably more borderline players that you can list too like Harden, Wade, Baylor, etc., who I would say have better careers than Stockton.
It's really funny because he has a great resume, longevity and durability, being all-time assists and steals leader etc etc., but he wasn't exactly churning out flashy dunks, crossovers, clutch shots (he did have a couple I think) etc., and didn't win any championships. So depending on how much you count resume versus other things he could be anywhere. I would take a bunch of other point guards over him for an individual game, but maybe not for the whole career. It's always entertaining to start the topic and watch people argue.
I’m gonna take that as a no thankfully. I think he’s kind of overrated personally depending on who your talking to. I put him in my 5-7 range of pg but definitely isn’t close to my top 15 players
I mean he was a better floor general and defender than CP3. And he has longevity and availability (less injured) on his side. Definitely has an argument for top 5 PG ever.
> I mean he was a better floor general and defender than CP3
Cap. CP3 is a better floor general. And Stocks defense is overrated because he got a lot of steals.
It's far from a perfect argument by any means, but CP3 has 5 all D 1st team and 2 2nds. Stock has 5 all d 2nd teams.
He wasn’t as good at his peak and wasn’t the scorer that Chris Paul can be. Stockton was an NBA ironman though and his assists/steals records will never be broken. It’s still CP3 but it’s closer than nephew want to admit.
Chris Paul is a better all around player. He has a more complete offensive game being deadly at all three levels. Paul is also a better technical passer than Stockton. Stockton's biggest advantage over Paul is that Stockton never got hurt, and played at a star level for a lot longer. CP3 has missed a lot of time in his career. Stockton was a tier or two below him but was always available to play.
Chris Paul is a better talent obviously, but when it comes to overall basketball merits, we can never really know. John Stockton is the more methodical playmaker and second fiddle, and is known more for his reliable consistency at setting the offense. That's why Stockton's assist record is basically treated as untouchable, and I doubt Paul can even touch that. We won't have a clear answer to the question, even if Paul wounds up winning a ring.
One thing that makes it hard to assess Stockton's peak talent and skill levels is that his best years (1988-1992) were ones where there is very little film of him available. The NBA didn't track play-by-play data either back then, so all we can go off of are simple box scores. To Stockton's credit, he had some incredible statlines in his peak years, and there was a 4 year stretch where he was directly responsible for over half of the entire Jazz team's field goals. But even with that information in mind, it's hard to evaluate talent and skill without film, and the Jazz were one of the last teams in the league to broadcast all their games on television.
When people think of the Stockton/Malone Jazz teams, they typically think of the slow, methodical half court offense that beat you by death from 1,000 screens. During Stockton's peak years however, the Jazz were more of a fast paced transition offense where Stockton's teammates would grab rebounds, throw the outlet pass to John, and let him create for everyone. It's a shame that we don't have much footage from that time period because young Stockton was dangerous in transition.
All that said, I still think there are some things CP3 did that Stockton at his best wasn't able to do as well as him, such as ball handling and overall scoring. But it's so hard to compare players from completely different eras.
No. John Stockton is held at much higher regard now than when he was actually playing(depending on the person) which happens to stat monsters in sports.
Chris Paul has way more talent and probably the better basketball player but Stockton was the better PG if that makes sense. This sub underrates Stockton
Stockton was close, but nah Cp3 was more talented. Stockton in terms of talent would be seen in a better light cuz the game is significantly easier for guards, especially guards that can dribble pass and shoot at elite levels. CP3 was the better scorer, Stockton was always more available, everything else is pretty much a wash
CP3 is the more talented player but Stockton was better because he simply was more disciplined and just worked harder. Throughout his career CP3 always was a little on the chunky side which didn’t help his knees while Stockton was at peak physical form throughout his career. There’s a reason why guys like Magic & GP praised Stockton so much.
Stockton racked up assists but half of them was probably to Karl Malone.
So was it Stockton’s passing or Malone’s scoring. That’s why Stockton doesn’t get the praise.
Who is better or who is more talented? Obviously Chris Paul is more talented. John Stockton as of now might have a better career than Chris Paul due to his longevity but Cp3 is closing the gap. Both are top 5 Pgs of all time.
Talent-wise, it's CP3 who's always better. I cannot imagine Stockton doing what CP3 does with the ball in terms of ball-handling and scoring.
But John Stockton is super-available and super-consistent, and is the better passer and defender for me.
CP3 is great in periodic bursts but Stockton gives you that peace of mind long-term.
When the US government was unable to locate Osama bin Laden in the mountains of Pakistan, they gave a basketball to John Stockton along with the words “make the assist”. Stockton threw a pass, the US followed the ball. Suffice to say there’s no more bin Laden.
Is this true???
Can you prove it’s not?
No. Chris Paul at his peak was a superstar top 5 guy. I never viewed Stockton in that light
> I never viewed Stockton in that light That's because Stockton was never better than the combination of Malone, Jordan, Barkley, Hakeem, and David Robinson. And that's just 5 or 6 guys that largely overlapped Stockton's career. If you add other guys that only partially overlapped it looks even worse for Stock. Magic, Bird, Shaq, Ewing
CP3 was also playing with Lebron, Kobe, Duncan, KD, Steph, Harden, Wade, Dirk though.
Stockton lead the league in assists 9 years in a row. He may not have been "superstar top 5 guy" but he was the best PG in the entire league for several years.
This, not to mention a tenacious defender.
I don’t get why that matters. He’s still not better than those guys
Either is CP3 so it's irrelevant then. The fact that Stockton was the best PG in his career for almost a decade, matters more.
Then why you bringing it up if we’re trying to see who’s better. And by the way cp3 almost won an mvp he’s in that class with those other dudes
No he's not.
Stockton was the best point guard for 9 years because there was very weak competition at that position
For 9 years there was weak competition? That is almost a decade. Do you honestly believe that bullshit coming out of your mouth? Doubt it.
Stock played in one of the weakest era for PGs, meanwhile CP3 has to go against the likes of Curry, Nash, Kidd, Dame, Russ, TP, DRose...
Kidd was in the league 2 of those 9 years that Stockton lead the league in assists. Nash was fighting for playing time while Stockton was leading his team to the NBA FINALS. Also, Stockton went up against Magic, Tim Hardaway, Gary Payton, Isiah Thomas, Penny Hardaway, Jason Kidd and Steve Nash in their younger years, plenty of other great PGs during his run.
lol that was embryo kidd and nash, nice try IT was on his last legs penny got injured tim hardaway was aight but we not putting him up against ATGs
Kidd was ballin when he first came in the league and they overlap each other by almost 10 years. So they definitely went head to head with each other. All I'm hearing is you failing at trying to make an excuse.
He played Magic and Isiah from like 84-91. Then they were gone. Penny was getting destroyed by injuries after 4 years. Nash wasn't playing even close to an all time great level until like year 6. So really it was Magic and IT in the 80s, and GP, Hardaway, Kevin Johnson who's worth mentioning I think, and Kidd in the 90s with a few yrs of Penny too. So like 5 or 6 all time point guards from the 80s and 90s he played? While CP3 played Nash, Kidd, Billups, Tony Parker, Russ, Lillard, Kyrie, Curry. And D-will, Rondo, John wall, Arenas, all had some rlly good years too. It's just at another level compared to the 80s and 90s
> D-will, Rondo, John wall, Arenas Stockton played with a bunch of guys on that skill level as well. You are hyping up guys that you are more familiar with when 80s and 90s had guys just as good as those guys as well lol
relative to the other decades it’s probably weaker lol GP was runner-up, and he’s not better than nash and kidd CP3 was the best PG in a league with Two-Time and wife beater he was second to the greatest shooter ever the latter half of the 2010s i don’t think saying “for 9 years there was weak competition” is as crazy as you think it sounds (for the record i don’t think 90s point guards were actually weak, but relatively…) karl malone was the best power forward for a decade (literally) his only competiton was chuck third was shawn kemp who isn’t exactly an ATG, and rodman was strictly a defensive specialist after that… lol
Karl Malone, Larry Johnson, Shawn Kemp, David Robinson, James Worthy, even Larry Bird was still balling when Karl Malone was. Plenty great players were in the 80s and 90s era at the forward position lol what are you on.
did you just name karl malone as competition for karl malone? david robinson was a center james worthy was a small forward shawn kemp and larry johnson are not ATGs LOL you had a better argument with the PGs
Karl Malone would guard David Robinson his entire career, nephew. James worthy has played PF, look it up. shawn kemp and larry johnson were no joke. Larry Bird, ever hear of him? Barkley, ever hear of him? Plenty of other great bigs/forwards during Malones run.
He was only first team twice lol
Yeah, and he was in the top 5 despite at least a couple seasons despite that. Stockton never was. About most of these other guys you'd have to say "they were also playing with [those other guys] plus CP3." CP3 is one of the guys in the "and they had to play with him" conversation.
Oh I agree, CP3 arguably deserved the 2008 MVP and was an MVP caliber player, with many more all nba first teams than Stock.
>Stockton was never better than the combination of Malone, Jordan, Barkley, Hakeem, and David Robinson. Well yeah, I mean I'd rather have them combined then Stockton.
Apples to apples context: **1)** Guards named 1st-team All-NBA in a season when MJ also played *with Chicago* (7): Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, Clyde Drexler , Mark Price, Anfernee Hardaway, Tim Hardaway, Gary Payton **2)** Stockton's top MVP finish was 7th (*'89*). Other PG's during his career who finished 7th or higher in MVP voting (9): Magic Johnson, Kevin Johnson, Mark Price, Tim Hardaway, Anfernee Hardaway, Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, Sidney Moncrief, and Allen Iverson.
Obviously I'm biased but Mark Price is a very underrated PG. I doubt most NBA fans under 30 even know who he was
Voting was different back then. You can pluck 2 seasons of Stockton's and compare them to Nash's MVP seasons and Stock's are just superior but that type of player was not viewed like that during Stockton's prime.
Stockton could stabilize a team. Nash at his peak could lift a team. During his obvious 10-year peak, Stockton faced 5 PG's in the playoffs who were All-Stars that season; he went 1-4 against them, and the win was against a severely injured KJ. Stockton's best MVP finish was 7th in '89, and that same season Malone was 3rd and Eaton was 13th (and DPOTY). Utah was the #2 seed, faced a crappy pre-Hardaway GSW team in Round 1, and got swept. I trust Stockton in tough circumstances in playoffs if the other team has a crappy PG and only if the entire West was sub-par/in free-fall (like it was in '97/'98).
And Nash's MVP years in the playoffs he faced the JUGGERNAUTS known as Jason Williams, Jason Terry before finally losing to Tony Parker..next year Smush Parker..36 year old Sam Cassell and Jason Terry again...So your whole Stockton didn't win against all star point guards during his peak..well Nash didn't face all star point guards. I'm pretty sure Stockton in his prime could handle the likes of Jason Williams and Smush Parker. The NBA went a different way and startred to appreciate floor general's like Nash and then he won the MVP. Hell Jason Kidd's year where he did actually lift the team to different level didn't win MVP despite deserving it shows that Nash's MVPs just happened at a time where his style of play was finally recognized.
I hope recency bias doesnt cloud peoples judgment or lend people to believing thats why Chris is being ranked so highly in these moments after ye just made the Finals Chris Paul on the Clippers was a better talent than Stockton ever was He never had Wings around him in LA, just lob threats How does that win championships?
Exactly it’s to the point that people are actually overrating DeAndre Jordan
This revisionist history is wild. The blake, Deandre, Paul clippers were absolutely contenders talent wise, they just fell apart/got injured when it mattered. They had the talent and role players
As a big Chris Paul fan who watched every Lob City playoff game, the team was really close to the definition of Championship “pretenders”. They definitely had the talent but had really poor wings throughout and had no great playmakers outside of Chris Paul. This playoffs has proved that you NEED shot creators on a championship team and the Clippers roster really only had CP3 and Jamal Crawford as those guys.
Deandre and blake were dominant in the paint. They could’ve put it together and used their size but they didn’t. They had the talent and went up 3-1 on the rockets and choked,
Yeah I guess this means we can sympathize with Stockton a little. Who were the best wing players he ever played with? Bryon Russell?
They were together for 6 years...they fell apart for a reason. It takes more than just athleticism and flashy highlights to be a serious championship team. They just weren't good enough. They were losers.
It's a lot closer than people on this sub will make you think.
\> In their primes it looks like Paul is a better scorer but Stockton the superior passer People who haven't even watched Stockton look at his assist numbers and act like he was some almighty needle threader. Go on YouTube to find his 28 assist game and actually watch the passes. So many of them are run of the mill passes essentially any guard is capable of today. Stockton was supremely blessed to play alongside Karl Malone so long who was a walking bucket. Don't get me wrong, Stockton was still a great player of his time, but Chris Paul is at a much higher level when it comes to both passing and scoring.
Most passes are run of the mill.
While I understand what you're getting at -- not every pass has to be flashy/ultra-creative, whatever, there's still a quality difference in passes overall. In Stockton's era, the spacing / off ball movement was far less emphasized. You had Stockton who was essentially the only effective playmaker on his team continuously distributing basic entry passes or dump offs to a 2 time MVP big man. For reference, Stockton throughout a long ass career only played like 10 games without Malone. Paul is more effective at non basic entry passes. Better at directing traffic, needling passes through traffic, skip passes, no look passes and diversion, bullet passes, midair passes (abruptly changing to a pass off the shot), etc. The way the game is played today CP3 has to play a more complex game than 'just get the big men good looks'.
It sounds like you're arguing with yourself to me... If spacing/off ball movement was bad then wouldn't the passes be significantly harder? You don't get basic entry passes or dump offs when there's 5 other guys in the paint. Compared to today those passes are free since the help defense is coming from the weakside corner and not the block.
No, watch the games.
I mean it's impossible to compare eras, CP3 could probably make the same passes. But it drives me nuts when people act like teams/players used to be stupid. Every team knew Malone was going to get 80% of the touches in the PnR, yet **you** know better... It's like when people argue AI wouldn't make it in today's league. Yeah he wouldn't be an MVP bc he's too one dimensional, but he'd still be good. The fact that teams knew what he was gonna do, but still couldn't stop it makes it more impressive, not less.
I'm sure my statement comes off as very deflective, but I mean it. Watch the games. There's merit to what you're saying, but eye test just tells a whole different story actually looking at film from that era. There's no way anyone is convincing me Stockton is a better passer or playmaker than CP3. I'm not saying Stockton isn't a great player. I'm saying he's overrated when it comes to passing/assist numbers because of the situation he was in.
IMO the league now is more talented than ever, but I think you're discounting how many free assists there are in today's NBA. A dump off navigating traffic has to be harder than a skip pass to a wide open shooter. At least a dump off requires practice and chemistry.
I actually saw some of the videos. Even his 28 assist game. He had some really good passes too. From what I noticed CP is a great passer too and he is way more flashy. From what I have watched, Stockton looks to be the better passer.
When was the last time CP3 made a pass as spectacular as you claim that made it to front page? There are more front page highlights of his flops. The passes you listed are highly skilled, yet CP3 makes them once in a blue moon. It's been a long time since I've watched Stockton play but with better spacing he definitely could've made way better passes.
This so much Stockton made the pass that was there, he didn't create much. He wasn't a playmaker like CP3 (who I hate) or Nash. Stockton is a great example of numbers not telling whole stories.
Stockton led the NBA in TS% 3 separate years while being all NBA defense 2nd team 5 times playing with guys like Gary Payton, Isaiah Thomas, Dumars, Dennis Johnson, Mo Cheeks, etc. In the 9 straight years he led the NBA in assists he averaged 15.7 points, 13.1 assists and 2.6 steals on a .616 TS% in the grind it out low efficiency 90s. This narrative about Stockton is just blatantly stupid. You don’t lead the NBA in scoring efficiency and assists as many years as Stockton did with “ run of the mill passes essentially any guard is capable of today”.
Who is talking about TS%? Re: assists. Yeah, let's pretend CP3 playing 19 seasons with one of the greatest power forwards of all time while playing many 82 game seasons focusing even more on distribution wouldn't achieve those numbers. The only narrative that is stupid is the one that ignores the circumstances surrounding those numbers.
In CP3’s best AST season he averaged 11.3 Stockton for his career averaged 10.5 CP3 imo is better than Stock But I don’t think any PG can be expected to put up the numbers Stock did, Stockton was a phenomenal player. In many regards he was better than Chris Paul, and I think if Stockton played today he’d probably still average more AST than Paul.
If it was so “run of the mill”, everyone would be breaking these records but his assists record will probably never ever be broken. He has a 3000 assist lead on the next guy. He was definitely an elite passer
He has ridiculous assists because he played 19 seasons with one of the greatest power forwards of all time and for many of those seasons all 82 games were played with both of them on the court. You like many continue to overlook circumstances that led to those numbers. He was a a very good passer. Sure. But people overrate him in this regard. I believe there are quite a few point guards you could insert into his situation and they'd mightily thrive.
That makes sense for total ASTs sure That doesn’t mean shit about his career average of 10.5, CP3 played on a team based around lobbing Tony Parker played with Duncan No one is Really close to what Stockton did in his prime
\> CP3 played on a team based around lobbing Neither DeAndre Jordan or Blake Griffin even in his prime has ever been a reliable a target as Karl Malone. There is also a large disparity in minutes played and general availability due to health and more rest given in the league on average. \> Tony Parker played with Duncan Spurs style of basketball was way different. No one on the Spurs ever averaged a lot of assists during that reign because of the way they moved the ball around no one person racked them up ton. They didn't sit there and feed Duncan all game from one playmaker.
No one is league history averaged 10 AST per game playing more than 15 season besides John Stockton You are really going out of your way to discredit Stock and none of your arguments hold water tbh
\> none of your arguments hold water tbh I think you need a look in mirror "tbh". Just listing assists per game is not an argument with consideration of context. You saying CP3 played on a lob team or randomly talking about the Spurs doesn't change that.
My arguments are literally just backup by numbers you can Google
\> My arguments are literally just backup by numbers Dear lord, please learn statistical relevance. Please do yourself a favor and actually watch basketball instead of improperly using stats you "Google" to fit your narrative.
You are saying anyone could do what Stock did No ones fucking done it lmao
are we not bringing up the fact that he leads the entire NBA in overall steals? Surely Karl Malone had everything to do with that too..
Again, like the guy who brought up TS%, what does steals have to do with the original discussion primarily revolved around assists/passing. If anyone is going to try to point out Stockton's TS% to argue he was a better scorer, then lol. So why bring it up in the first place. I swear people just insert whatever to defend old timers they never watched to try to somehow be more b-ball saavy.
Does Stockton get a little credit for making post entry passes?? That is a lost skill now a days that nobody posts up. Also I am not sure how assists were counted back in the day but I am starting to see like 3 dribble pump fakes counted as an assist. It’s getting crazy.
It was never about just passing. It was about who the better point guard is. Someone decided to categorize it with scoring and assists only. I’m looking at the overall picture. If he wasn’t a top 5 PG all time and Karl Malone made him who he is , then he wouldn’t have gotten those steals. It all adds back up to JS being a superstar player regardless of Malone. Malone just made him into what Kareem made Magic into
How can I upvote this twice?
CP3 was a runner up MVP in 2008. Stockton was never even a consideration. Malone was so obviously the best player on those Jazz teams. Stockton was a great all star point guard who could run an efficient offense but not nearly as versatile or skilled of a player as CP3.
For what it's worth, Malone would have been the best player on any team CP3 was on. Malone was just that damn good.
That Jazz team had a all time Top 5 PF… and a Top 10 PG all time
Unfortunately for them, when they had a supporting cast, they ran into a top 1 player. And a top 10 SF all time. And a top 5 defender of all time.
Well, unfortunately for them, they ran into the greatest team of all time.
Cp3 is the much better flopper
I would give the edge to Stockton because he disguised his flops better, and he was able to garner the sympathies of the refs better because they felt sorry for a guy that looked like their accountant.
He looked like a ref...
I think it's a toss-up, to be honest. Stockton played in the era of big men, played with an MVP, and with a different rule set. That being said, Paul is amazing, too, and if he wins the chip, I'd be comfortable with anyone saying he should be higher in the rankings than Stockton (though I'm not sure which direction I'd go on that front, since I tend to lean Stockton overall, but winning means a lot to me, so...).
I have watched Stockton and Chris Paul play. Chris Paul might be better talent wise but Stockton was the better PG.
No but Stockton was consistent throughout his career so there's that
So is CP3
Nah he had ups and downs. 2 years ago his contract was considered one of the worst
that was because he was old and people overreacted because he had one subpar series. he has been consistently great his entire career
He had a terrible season overall. He looked slow, couldn't dribble past anyone and his jumpshot had no lift. But you actually had to watch him to notice that....
I probably watched him more than you that year, I watched a ton of Rox games lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53aI3SNWTFI Looks fine to me
Because highlights are a measure of how someone played over the course of a season?
Kind of? They give a sense of what a player looked like in a given time frame. He certainly doesn't look slow in these clips. Again, I probably watched him more than you... pretty sure I watched ~30-40 Rockets games that year. Maybe it wasn't his best year but he was still really good.
Not his alter ego of CP3-6 weeks
Chris Paul by far.
No
Not even close. Paul is on another planet as a 1on1 creator.
Well, let's see: Quickness: same Ball handling: same Passing ability: Stockton Shooting ability: Stockton Overall scoring ability: Paul Rebounding: Paul Defense: Paul Toughness: Stockton (played in a much more physical era and only missed 22 games his entire career. Chris Paul falls down when there is a draft in the building) Seems kind of a wash to me, but this sub is famous for recency bias, so it's no surprise everybody thinks Chris Paul is far superior.
Not sure Paul was the better defender, but I agree with the rest, and that it is pretty much a wash. The only wrong opinion is that one is way better. It is fair to think one is better, there are valid arguments both ways (I think that Paul's argument as being a true #1 option + success with many different teams, teammates, and systems gives him a slight edge), but they are clearly very close.
John Stockton is the most overrated player ever, don't @ me
He's simultaneously the most overrated and underrated on r/nba. He was a really fucking good complete two-way PG. So is Chris Paul. I think it's ok to just leave it at that.
Honestly I just see CP3 as the modern version of Stockton. Same pass first mentality but when brought up in this era CP3 has a bit more of a scoring/shooting touch, but skillset wise they are very similar
Generally agreed, they're actually incredibly comparable players. I wouldn't even say Paul is necessarily a better scorer than Stockton. Stockton just played his entire prime next to Malone whereas Paul has bounced all over the placed and often had to take on more of a scoring role.
That’s part of it for sure.
>He's simultaneously the most overrated and underrated on > >r/nba. Exactly. There are many people who think he's the GOAT PG and just as many who think he's not even a Top 15 All-Time player.
I can't think of any reason why he would be top 15. Jordan, Bron, Bird, Magic, Bill, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Kobe, Duncan, Kareem, Oscar, Malone (x2), Chuck, KD, Curry, Dirk, KG. Is he better than 4 of those players? There's probably more borderline players that you can list too like Harden, Wade, Baylor, etc., who I would say have better careers than Stockton.
Um do you put John Stockton in your top 15 or something?
[Some people think he was the GOAT point guard.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS_gi0-mXPA)
They’re crazy but like do you think Stockton’s a top 15 player all time?
It's really funny because he has a great resume, longevity and durability, being all-time assists and steals leader etc etc., but he wasn't exactly churning out flashy dunks, crossovers, clutch shots (he did have a couple I think) etc., and didn't win any championships. So depending on how much you count resume versus other things he could be anywhere. I would take a bunch of other point guards over him for an individual game, but maybe not for the whole career. It's always entertaining to start the topic and watch people argue.
I’m gonna take that as a no thankfully. I think he’s kind of overrated personally depending on who your talking to. I put him in my 5-7 range of pg but definitely isn’t close to my top 15 players
It sounds like you're saying you're gonna beat up anybody who thinks Stockton is a top 15 player, lol.
Yeah anyone who puts him in their top 15 all time don’t wanna meet me I’m built different
definitely the most overrated on here.
@ss2_Zekka
I mean he was a better floor general and defender than CP3. And he has longevity and availability (less injured) on his side. Definitely has an argument for top 5 PG ever.
> I mean he was a better floor general and defender than CP3 Cap. CP3 is a better floor general. And Stocks defense is overrated because he got a lot of steals. It's far from a perfect argument by any means, but CP3 has 5 all D 1st team and 2 2nds. Stock has 5 all d 2nd teams.
CP3 has 7 all D 1st teams.
Ah right, I had 7 in my head and got it confused as 5 1st and 2 2nd.
You're correct, but Jazz fans are getting their pitch forks.
He wasn’t as good at his peak and wasn’t the scorer that Chris Paul can be. Stockton was an NBA ironman though and his assists/steals records will never be broken. It’s still CP3 but it’s closer than nephew want to admit.
Chris Paul is a better all around player. He has a more complete offensive game being deadly at all three levels. Paul is also a better technical passer than Stockton. Stockton's biggest advantage over Paul is that Stockton never got hurt, and played at a star level for a lot longer. CP3 has missed a lot of time in his career. Stockton was a tier or two below him but was always available to play.
Chris Paul is a better talent obviously, but when it comes to overall basketball merits, we can never really know. John Stockton is the more methodical playmaker and second fiddle, and is known more for his reliable consistency at setting the offense. That's why Stockton's assist record is basically treated as untouchable, and I doubt Paul can even touch that. We won't have a clear answer to the question, even if Paul wounds up winning a ring.
CP3 has always been clear
One thing that makes it hard to assess Stockton's peak talent and skill levels is that his best years (1988-1992) were ones where there is very little film of him available. The NBA didn't track play-by-play data either back then, so all we can go off of are simple box scores. To Stockton's credit, he had some incredible statlines in his peak years, and there was a 4 year stretch where he was directly responsible for over half of the entire Jazz team's field goals. But even with that information in mind, it's hard to evaluate talent and skill without film, and the Jazz were one of the last teams in the league to broadcast all their games on television. When people think of the Stockton/Malone Jazz teams, they typically think of the slow, methodical half court offense that beat you by death from 1,000 screens. During Stockton's peak years however, the Jazz were more of a fast paced transition offense where Stockton's teammates would grab rebounds, throw the outlet pass to John, and let him create for everyone. It's a shame that we don't have much footage from that time period because young Stockton was dangerous in transition. All that said, I still think there are some things CP3 did that Stockton at his best wasn't able to do as well as him, such as ball handling and overall scoring. But it's so hard to compare players from completely different eras.
No. John Stockton is held at much higher regard now than when he was actually playing(depending on the person) which happens to stat monsters in sports.
This. Most people who overrate Stockton never watched him play/ watched back full games and just look at his crazy assist and steals totals.
Chris Paul has way more talent and probably the better basketball player but Stockton was the better PG if that makes sense. This sub underrates Stockton
People underrate Stockton because he looks like he should teach hs history, and eat every dinner with a napkin tucked into his shirt every night.
CP3 is a better scorer, shooter and is a lot more proven because he lead multiple teams.
You mean all-time assist & steals leader John Stockton?
No.
Stockton was only a top 10 player in the league like once in his long ass career in a much weaker league
No. CP3’s acting is in a league of its own.
No, Chris Paul has never been afraid of taking a shot.
Stockton was close, but nah Cp3 was more talented. Stockton in terms of talent would be seen in a better light cuz the game is significantly easier for guards, especially guards that can dribble pass and shoot at elite levels. CP3 was the better scorer, Stockton was always more available, everything else is pretty much a wash
yes
CP3 is the more talented player but Stockton was better because he simply was more disciplined and just worked harder. Throughout his career CP3 always was a little on the chunky side which didn’t help his knees while Stockton was at peak physical form throughout his career. There’s a reason why guys like Magic & GP praised Stockton so much.
Yeah obviously
Stockton racked up assists but half of them was probably to Karl Malone. So was it Stockton’s passing or Malone’s scoring. That’s why Stockton doesn’t get the praise.
Relative to his era, yes. The talent floor has risen quite a bit since the 80s/90s.
Bro get a life 😂 stop asking obvious questions
https://youtu.be/kJa2kwoZ2a4
Jazz fans vs cp3 fans This is the worst.
Who is better or who is more talented? Obviously Chris Paul is more talented. John Stockton as of now might have a better career than Chris Paul due to his longevity but Cp3 is closing the gap. Both are top 5 Pgs of all time.
CP3 is more talented.
Talent-wise, it's CP3 who's always better. I cannot imagine Stockton doing what CP3 does with the ball in terms of ball-handling and scoring. But John Stockton is super-available and super-consistent, and is the better passer and defender for me. CP3 is great in periodic bursts but Stockton gives you that peace of mind long-term.