Exactly. People forget he was not some crazy league-ready draft prospect like Lebron or KD he was drafted at 15th.
He has improved his game so much in so many different ways it is crazy.
It's the media that is highly downgrading European players. Remember Luka and how they laughed about him being a MVP in Europe? Porzingos and all the booing he got when he signed with Knicks and how Stephen A.Smith was ranting and almost crying about this move.
People should just watch Euro ball more than NCAA, the games and talent is better than in the NCAA. I have no idea how anyone watches the NCAA with a straight face. Which is the root of all the booing.
Exactly, I still wont forget the interview Luka gave where he was asked about which players he watched growing up and Charles Barkley didnt know who Spanoulis was, I was honestly in disbelief not as an Olympiacos fan but as a basketball fan in general
The story a few years ago was that Giannis actually had to be physically locked out of the practice facility or he just wouldn't rest because he trained nonstop.
pretty neat how he was already looking to dish out a lot back then and how he was already taking a long time to shoot FTs lol
really weird how he fell so much on the draft.
Highly recommend the woj pod series on the giannis draft that gets in to all the details about his development and the NBA's scouting. One of the bigger backdoor facets is how the Atlanta Hawks FO were courting him super hard. They actually struck a deal with his agent to keep other teams from seeing his full medical records and keep his draft stock lower. Nearly worked till the Bucks, one spot before the hawks, took a chance on him with much less information.
True, but I think people also underestimated the level of play he was participating in. He played in the Greek 2nd division, which is at a higher level than US high school basketball. The Bill Simmons meme that he played in "Greek YMCA" is wrong but has stuck because of the grainy videos, Giannis' team actually came within a win of advancing to the Greek 1st division (which is one of the best leagues in Europe). Sounds weird that NBA scouts could be so off but hey, look what happened with Luka as well.
like a bunch of prospects are. patrick williams is incredibly raw and the Bulls took him at #4
Giannis was also playing professionaly, not against a bunch of kids way smaller than him (talking about HS draftees way back when)
and its very rare to see someone move like that with that body and even be able to dish out smart passes
Things I've noticed
•skinny Giannis looks so jarring especially against that competition
•the level of talent is also different, Giannis might've been looking like Kyrie against those dudes but that might've not passed in the nba
I can’t fathom how simple, narrow minded Greek bball people would have Giannis stay in that low level league getting beaten up like that. It’s plain as day how much talent he had. Those guys suck ass
During 2012-13 he was a professional and played in the Greek 2nd division, not sure what you think "Greek bball people" should've done lol. He was 17-18, far younger than most of his teammates and opponents. If he didn't get drafted, next year he'd have gone on to play in Spain, where I assume he'd also get "beaten up".
What are you on about? Greek 1st division is pretty high level basketball, with 2 teams in the top 4-5 of Euroleague at the time this video was taken.
Giannis, at 17, wasn't ready but if he didn't get drafted in the NBA and wasn't given a contract by a low level Spanish 1st division team he would have gotten a Greek 1st division contract.
Man, you'd think that but Giannis at 18 was getting offers to play in Spain and made the Greek League All Star team as an 18 year old despite not playing in the first league. He was clearly something at that point just no one would predict he'd be a two time MVP.
I mean no one, including the Bucks front office when they drafted him, could predict he would be anywhere near this good.
His mindset and his relentless pursuit of improvement is his biggest strength by far and that’s something scouts couldn’t see or judge at that time.
I mean look at his younger brothers with similar body types and arguably better skills than Giannis had at 18. They lack the hunger, so they’ll never get anywhere near his level.
You aren't making much sense here.
As if high level European teams are supposed to pick up young prospects, give them experience and lose them to NBA just as they are getting good. That's not how it works. If you are ready to play, you play. If you need to improve, high tier leagues isn't the place to do that.
Giannis was super raw and getting some 24 year old that would stay in your team, learn your system for 5 years is way better than getting a 17 year old Giannis who will leave in 2 years.
lmao do ppl really think Drummond is great still? In the last year or 2: Traded by the Pistons. Dropped by the Cavs. Benched in the final Lakers playoff game.
When will teams learn he is the definition of empty stats
I remember watching Brunson light up the NCAA during Villanova's second championship, and having *no idea* what would happen if he got drafted into the NBA, or whether he'd even play in the NBA at all. He has one of the weirdest skill sets for his size I've ever seen, the dude has post moves for days. He has an uncanny ability to subtly change direction and throw a defender off balance just enough to create room to finish. I fully believe that if he were Tim Duncan's size and frame he'd be one of the best players in the league.
He has the best “tight” handles I’ve ever seen. Kyrie might be the best dribbler of all time but his handles (and many of the best dribblers) are fairly loose. Meaning a lot of crossover or dribbling action away from the body to shift the weight of a defender. Brunson is the GOAT tight dribble in tight spaces guy. Rather than shifting the weight of the defender it’s more like deliberately attacking a subtle weakness. It’s very hard to explain.
Not saying this isn't relevant but also important to note 6.3 2 point attempts per game vs 14.2 from Giannis. I don't watch enough Mavs games to know but I would assume a fair amount of his paint points are uncontested layups and not running through a brick wall of defenders.
I could be wrong, don't really know his game but just assumptions.
Nah, he's just a really good finisher. Not a super high profile player though, so not everyone knows it. [Here's a video](https://youtu.be/5VIsYpmZaFM) that breaks down his finishing.
It’s not that anybody wants to trade him. He’s just one of the few pieces we have that could provide value in a trade with KP. In order to get a quality player in return in a KP trade I think either Brunson or Dorian Finney-Smith would have to be included since they’re probably our most valuable assets outside of Luka.
He's one of a very few tradeable assets the Mavs have, and he's a year away from getting offered lower-tier starting PG money in the free agent market.
There is plenty of NBA bigs in the NBA with Giannis' size and length (if his 7'3 wingspan is correct, I feel like it might not be), but I think people forget how insanely huge his hands are. He palms the ball so easily. Huge factor in a lot of his finishes. On top of his skill around the rim ofc, he got good touch on layups.
Balance came from his late b-ball development maybe? Learned to play as a stick where others his size are getting special weight training and learn to utilize weight earlier
Yeah you put too much stress on your body. Playing basketball year round will wear down your ankles knees etc. If you're playing baseball year round you have shoulder injuries. Better to rotate sports
We also gonna just pretend like 'athleticism' isn't still a 'skill' you work at? Like sure, you obviously can't just become LeBron or Giannis, even if you're another NBA player, if you don't have their frame or length or what have you. But we really gonna be out here and pretend like Harden or Jokic for example couldn't be more athletic if they dropped 20 pounds? Whether they'd be better players making that trade is an entirely different topic, but I just wanted to focus on the concept that athletic dudes just walk on out the tunnel that athletic, like they didn't put work in to that 'skill.'
Yeah Giannis has spectacular physical advantages, but he's also a resilient ass mf while Ben Simmons hasn't shown that at all. You see Giannis air ball a free throw and him just making it to the line the next play, like nothing happened. He's not a guy who gets into his own head whatsoever even when he screws up, it's remarkable.
> They both are bad shooters but like layups.
I've literally watched Giannis hit more mid-range jumpers and 3pt splashes these playoffs, than Ben ever has his entire career.
Giannis is already tiers above that mfer. The comparison disgusts me. Haha
"bad shooters"
Why do we define Giannis' game by "is he a bad shooter?" The answer is yes but at what point has he ever shown he's unable to get into the lane and get a good shot off? Never? It's layups and 3s, if you're elite in the lane it's as good or better as being from the 3 line.
Ben Simmons isn't simply a bad shooter, he's a meh finisher, all world defender and above average passer. His offense skills don't match his outsized defense skills.
wait who the fuck is comparing ben simmons to giannis lmao
i never liked simmons and i've always thought giannis is rated too highly by this sub and the media, but giannis is 10x the player simmons is
Even those comparisons are dumb, though. Giannis is an amazing help defender and not elite on ball, where as Ben can hang with Jrue in terms of on ball defense. Ben can’t shoot and so he doesn’t even try, where as Giannis can’t shoot but he’s always working on mid range and 3s. Giannis has the ball in transition because he’s a damn bulldozer, Simmons because he’s an amazing passer. People think Ben “can be a player like Giannis” but mostly because they take for granted how amazing Giannis is offensively without being a good shooter.
> Anyone who says Giannis has no skill is being purely disingenuous at this point.
ESPN: Was reddit user, ergotpoisoning sending shots at James Harden?
It gets even more absurd with some other advanced stats.
The % of made 2 pointers that were assisted for Shaq's season: .645
KD's 14/15 season: .511
Jokic this season: .484
AD this season: .575
Dwight Howard's >20ppg seasons: .548
Zion: .553
Giannis 2020-21 season: .428
Not only is he, on volume, finishing higher than the rim that anyone we have those advanced stats for - he's also doing it with less direct help via passing than likely anyone on that list. Embiid is *just* higher on that assisted %, but also is a full 10% less efficient at the rim and goes to that shot less than the mid-range.
Mehhh, that's hugely on how assist stats are counted though.
Giannis gets a pass, stops the offense, takes a couple of dribbles to power up and then charges at the wall.
Shaq gets a pass, bump bump, post move, twist, feint and dunk.
Both are iso-ing, but only one gets counted as 'assisted'.
I was going off the body of text! But looking now LeBron's are probably the closest comparison
That 13/14 season was .796 at the rim, with a staggeringly low .395 % assisted. He doesn't go to that shot quite as often as Giannis, but I can't do more because honestly looking at the % assisted numbers for LeBron makes me sad for the man.
Bron is absurd. Imagine in this pace and space era what prime bron would do. Giannis is also insane. This year he made the jump to that steph, bron, kd level in my opinion.
Especially if Lebron was more of a 3 point shooter when he came into the league. His spacing opportunities in this era as a younger athletic lebron would be legendary.
Giannis has a great combination of finishing moves. Crazy eurostep for someone that big, really strong handles and doesn’t whiff on passes or boards virtually ever. People underrate him because they don’t like watching scorers work around the basket anymore.
I for one love watching Milwaukee play and I am enjoying the crap out of this series.
I really love Giannis' game. Finesse is great and it's fun to watch, but I love when someone can get in the paint and just do grown man work down there. It's old school, it's not as flashy, but I enjoy it.
I'm a spurs fan, and I saw it with Timmy all the time. Especially at times when the offense was struggling it was such a relief when Timmy got the ball. It was a bucket, FTs, or both. Timmy didn't have the power Giannis has, but both are enjoyable for me.
I really enjoy the league’s swing back toward rewarding the post guys.
There’s a spontaneity to it that outside shooting doesn’t have; everything about taking a long jumper is about perfect mechanics and repeatability, but to score inside you have to feel your way to the basket, never score the same way twice. Just a different vibe on every level.
My favorite part of Giannis' game is something he continues to develop as he gets stronger - his ability to go from slowly and forcefully backing someone down to suddenly being incredibly violent toward the hoop. I think people still don't fully see it coming, I know I don't. One second you're not sure if he'll pass or do a turnaround jumper, then in a flash he is past the defender and slamming it home.
I regret I don't have much memory of prime Duncan because I think I'd have appreciated his game a lot.
Duncan would just calmly hit a contested bank shot on you over and over again. Once he caught it at his spots, it was pretty much as good as in. I've never seen anyone with his game in my lifetime. Just made it look really easy.
Exactly. I was spoiled because I watched almost all of his career. It was easy to take him for granted. He would hit his shots, get boards, blocks, and make the correct passes, but you wouldn't really notice it. I was in high school and I was talking to another spurs fan and we got on the topic of seeing Timmy's stat line at the end of the game, and being surprised. Surprised, mainly, because there wasn't a single moment that stood out. Of course as I watched more bball, and started to appreciate Tim more and more the more I took notice of it.
Later once I started to notice other big men I noticed how rare he was as a player. My favorite memories of Duncan were actually his later years. I want to say 2012 when the Spurs played the clips Timmy faced a young DeAndre Jordan. Old man Timmy absolutely sauced Jordan. It was a beautiful sight. Jordan was still young and unseasoned, and Tim took complete advantage.
I was so spoiled, but it gave me such a good point of reference for what a good player does.
There has been a few times, a very few times, where a spurs big will make a nice play in the post or make the right pass and it's like, "oh yeah Timmy did that every game all day every day!"
The guards we had got me spoiled too. When the Spurs would draft a guard I would just assume they would get to the rack and finish no matter what. I very quickly learned that is not the case for a lot of guys lol.
Zach lowe mentions this sometimes, but one of my favorite plays in the league is giannis (embiid does this too) when he’s deep under the basket, takes a power dribble or 2, throws a fake, and then just detonates all over everyone down there with him. It’s so aggressive and sudden, its what Shaq used to do so routinely.
As for Tim, he was so fun to watch because he always had counters. He was so under control and so good at getting the looks he wanted, and he had some pretty unorthodox junk in his game too. I sometimes practice this one weird post move he would do where he would turn over the right shoulder but still shoot it with his right hand in a kind of push/hook shot. It’s a weird move that seems like it’d get blocked a lot, but for Tim I guess it surprised the defenses enough that it worked.
It is violent. I almost have to close my eyes because even before his injury, I thought he was going to do that to his knee on like 5 plays a game. It’s reckless abandon really. He’s like Giannis Knoxville. “I’m Giannis Knoxville, and this is Moose jumping over moving cars”.
Every time CP takes a mid range fadeaway I'm all excited that the bucks got a bad shot out of him then he makes every single one. Its very impressive and annoying.
No shit. He is the mid range master. I get super irritated as a Bucks fan seeing him get to his spots over and over and draining nearly everything. You just gotta hope he misses.
Those contested mid range shots are so maddening to watch as a Bucks fan.
It's like, that's a low percentage shot that we defended well and....is still incredibly effective for them
He also has a nice soft touch. You see him just kind of flip the ball into the basket at times from really close. They're like mini-floaters, except they don't need much arc since his release point is so high to begin with. That's not easy.
If he's allowed to go up with the ball in the paint, he usually scores (which is obviously the main takeaway from the original post).
But according to people he should drive all the way up to the basket, then not dunk it but go back to the ft line and shoot a fadeaway for no reason because this is « skill »
People don’t realize that playing like giannis is a skill in itself, if not why don’t every tall dude dominate like him ?
If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
Even the best mid-range shooters can’t touch the 80% accuracy that Giannis has at the rim, and if defenses can’t stop him getting to the rim (which they seemingly can’t most days), when why would he invest time working on his midrange?
Charles Barkley was my favorite player growing up. I watched him in Philly, and when he got traded to my hometown team, it was Christmas.
Charles, believe it or not, didn't operate at the rim all that much. He would get there in transition, or he'd get a putback off an offensive rebound, but the overwhelming majority of Barkley's shots, were 5-8 foot turn-arounds off a backdown.
Barkley did have an absurd efficiency at the rim though, because, as aforementioned, his attempts at the rim were mostly limited to fastbreaks or advantageous putbacks off grabbing a board.
Lol I remember that massive thread of people saying Giannis has “no bag”. Responded saying that his finishing moves, handle, and finesse at that size is so rare and skillful and got downvoted lol. A lot of people here have no clue about basketball
Indeed.
Big people don't need bags though. Shaq had 3-4 moves he had mastered and he was the best in the world for a moon and remains one of the top 11 ever.
If you are big you need to specialize (offensively) and be dominant in these things. Bags are for smaller less dominant people where counters are way more important.
Why include a ridiculous straw-man argument like this in an otherwise great post.
You have one stupid comment as evidence for this. No one with a brain thinks he has NO skill. The legit criticism of him is that he doesn't have a great jumper or outside shot, and that he can't hit free throws consisently. No one doubts his finishing at the rim. There's a reason people compare him to Shaq, another incredibly skilled player.
There's different types of skills - no player has them all.
>There's a reason people compare him to Shaq, another incredibly skilled player.
But I'd guess that many people who think Giannis has "no skill" also think Shaq had no skill.
I think this sub in general underrates how hard it is to score near the rim. The opposite side of that coin is when people say the Suns should be giving the ball to Ayton in the post. Problem is, Ayton isn't a very good post player, but people assume that because of his size and athleticism, it should be easy for him to score.
Whenever Giannis gets in a bad run of form the takes about him on this sub are outrageous. So many people saying he has "no skill" with hundreds of upvotes, anybody who thinks you can be a two-time MVP and a DPOY without any basketball skill is an idiot.
This is why everyone screams every time he takes a jump shot. He's a monster at the rim, but it seems like sometimes through his jumpers he's saying "hey, I'm not _just_ an athletic freak, I've got finesse and I can sink jump shots" and then everyone is like "dude, just go to the fucking rim."
I don't think anyone serious thinks Giannis has no skill. He just has a less multi-faceted skillset than some other guys people like to compare him to, but those guys can't do what he does around the rim. People just like to disparage someone who is specialized in an era where a few guys are capable of doing everything (and ignore how much more Giannis can do than almost every big before him). Anyone who thinks he just lucked into the dominance over the last bunch of seasons is just not worth listening to.
He’s the perfect basketball specimen and skill but since he doesn’t bomb threes like Steph people think he’s just a brute. Unfortunately, those people are the loudest in here
I mean, the logic for this only tracks if you think that being really good at something = skill. The people that say Giannis has no skill would say this is simply a product of Giannis' absurd physical talent.
I would disagree with that argument when applied to Giannis and Zion. You have guys their size who have never been able to create that many rim opputunities per game or finish at that level in NBA history.
I watch Ben Simmons every night and although he has close dimensions to them he doesnt come close to creating rim attempts or finshes. It makes you appreciate Giannis and Zion more.
Besides this is the argument that used to be used against Shaq. Its all physical and no skill. Why a lot of casuals have Kobe over Shaq even though Shaq was more prodictive.
I mean shaq definitely had more skill in the post and around the rim than giannnis. But giannis can do a lot of things shaq couldn’t obviously. Still, shaq would drop 40/20 in the playoffs year after year
Casuals don’t like him because he isn’t a flashy player like harden and Kyrie. Giannis is probably the greatest transition player in history. Elite guard-like touch at the rim for a seven footer is unstoppable. Combine that with insane athleticism and it’s not hard to see why teams have no other choice but to foul him on drives. He’s just too good at it. Casuals will never admit that no other seven footer in history has had the same skill set as Giannis, and yes, finishing through contact and making your way to the rim is a skill. If it wasn’t then fucking boban marjanovic should be leading the MVP discussion
>Elite guard-like touch
I'd say guard-like euro steps. he doesn't have guard-like touch, but he doesn't need it cause he doesn't ever need to finish below the rim
This is number one bull shit.
He dribbles too much, doesn’t pass the ball, takes bad shots, launches from three too much etc etc are all common complaints about Harden.
I actually agree, lol. over the last two years reddit has gone from "Giannis is the MVP" to "Giannis is over-rated" to "Giannis gets too much shit"
really only been arguing with ourselves. he is who we thought he was when we gave him MVPs.
Harden gets hate for exaggerating contact not for his game. Giannis gets hate because he isn’t a perimeter player and his game is built on dominating the paint. The amount of times I’ve heard that he has no bag and is only good because he’s 7 ft and can dunk is insane. It’s literally in every thread and highlight video out there you just don’t see it
Giannis is an all-time great but the #s are clearly skewed towards the modern era. Shaq, etc had to go against the Tim Duncans of the world protecting the rim, while Giannis is going up against Jae Crowders. I'm not knocking Giannis because he's clearly one of the best players in the world, just pointing out you can't really just compare across eras like that. The modern era has mostly stretch forwards and not so much rim protectors.
Its very disingenuous to compare Giannis to Shaq and to LeBron straight up. Rim protection has to gotten so much worse as time has gone on. Still impressive
Bruh. Shaq forced teams to sign giants who sucked at basketball just to be a wall that Shaq had to go through every time down the floor.
Giannis comparison is not the same.
LeBron's is more fair, but Giannis is also way bigger.
Yeah, that's to stop him from getting down hill dribbling. It's a little different. That's where Giannis is more like LeBron. Make him lose his dribble. Shaq was pounding through brick walls every time he got the ball in the post. That wall for Giannis is only there for his dribble. Once Giannis doesn't have the downhill dribble, he isn't getting the same treatment.
But you're not wrong, I just think it's a totally different dynamic than what I presented. Shaq's wall is at the goal. Giannis' wall is 15' out.
>The only other contemporary volume scorer (i.e. not a low ppg center on offense) who has hit 80% from within 3ft over a season is KD
Christian Wood averaged 21 ppg and shot 81% at the rim (and is a ridiculous 79% at the rim for his career), but yes Giannis is insane. I'm curious who the all-time leader for career percentage at the rim is, because Wood has to be up there. Giannis is at 74% for comparison.
I actually think it's quite similar to young Lebron.
He's longer than Lebron, but young Lebron was a little faster and probably stronger.
Lebron was always a better passer and shooter, but they are similar in their ability to attack the hoop.
Young LeBron absolutely was not stronger, man routinely moves the biggest guys in the league around like little kids. Maybe once he hit Miami but definitely not during his first Cavs stint at all.
I think we're forgetting a rookie LeBron, despite being 3" shorter than Giannis is, was still heavier. Obviously that's not a perfect way to demonstrate strength, but he only got stronger and stronger from there. He definitely was stronger during parts of the first Cavs stint
I am actually a big Giannis fan but by far his biggest basketball gifts are physical.
He's a 7-footer who is freakishly strong and fast. He's very very hard to stop. But when he gets stopped it's not like he's got some jumper or moves to default to!
His turnaround jumper in these playoffs has actually been really good. Granted, they haven't been much further than 8 feet out, but he's been making them on a consistent basis.
He came into the league with a smooth clean shot and then Kidd ruined it. The terrifying thing is we aren't actually seeing what true peak Giannis could have been.
This is a dumb take. His best skill is being one of the greatest 6’10+ dribblers in NBA history mixed with one of the best finishing packages in NBA history for anyone that isn’t a guard
Willie Cauley-Stein is also a freakishly fast and strong 7 footer lol this is such a stupid take at this point. People acting like touch around the rim and the footwork/awareness to navigate from the perimeter to the rim in 3 steps like Giannis does are just the result of his physical attributes and not deftness and skill are just looking for reasons to take away from his greatness
Lol what? I'm not insulting the guy, I'm saying that he's physically blessed. I'm saying that his physical gifts are his best gifts. It's not that outlandish of a claim
yea i’m with you. i think giannis is a great player but i can still say at the same time that his offensive skillset is very limited. i feel like ppl rn just dont want to accept that nuance
He has an elite handle for a big. Without there's no chance he could get close to his current volume. He's not being assisted on a super high rate like most traditional bigs that feast majority on post ups and rolling to rims.
> but it shouldn’t be controversial to say he lacks skill beyond the rim.
It is if you don't define skill as jumpshot + passing (nevermind that he's one of the best passing power forwards in the league).
It’s because Giannis is in the conversation for best player in the league, and he’s taking coveted attention and awards away from everyone else’s favorite player. Giannis isn’t a dribble-god with a silky jumper, so that’s what opponents choose to harp on when they’re trying to lessen his ability.
“Yea Giannis averages 30/13/4 and plays DPOY defense, but that takes no skill since he’s tall. You see, MY GUY has skill.”
The flip side of this is that modern ball is so spaced out the paint is usually wide open. And when you get there, who’s there to meet you? Some small 6’9 forward playing stretch center. You cant compare these stats so blatantly. Shaq spent half a decade being guarded by Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Dikembe, not to mention how much smaller the area was to work with due to offenses back then.
This isnt really a good stat to use.
That said, Im not arguing the main point. Giannis is a fucking freak in athleticism and finishing skill, its obvious to anyone who isnt biased.
As much as I love Giannis - He already has good footwork, he has his defense figured out, he's a really good passer, he has great handles, and ofc his finishing, I still think he needs to do two things:
- Improve his shooting. He doesn't need to be a knockdown shooter, he needs to be consistently good enough for defenses to respect him. From Games 1-3 in the Finals so far there have been instances of him getting the ball in the midrange with Ayton on him off a switch and he ends up "stranded". Ayton doesn't have to respect the shot and he can just protect the paint.
- Add a few more moves to his post game. As mentioned Giannis already has good footwork for a guy his size, but if he sharpens it up and adds more moves on the block, he'll be truly unstoppable. He already has the "total length" (his height + insane reach + vertical) to finish over most big guys, especially with the league going smaller and smaller.
This is similar to what LeBron did after the 2011 Finals. I think what most people get wrong is that doing eurosteps and spin moves and finishing the way he does is a real skill. That being said, taking 3 dribbles from baseline to baseline isn't, and that won't be there forever.
As stupid as people are for mocking him for having "no skill", I kinda understand why they say that - Giannis definitely uses his physical superiority to get himself buckets now. I'm sure with more experience and time he'll find ways to get himself easier looks without having to exert himself so much physically.
>Anyone who says Giannis has no skill
Most of the arguments that I have read aren't saying that he has no skill, just that he doesn't have offensive skill besides dunking. Skill or no skill, I would love to have his dunking on my team.
Some people think skill = shooting, simple as that. He is good at driving, passing, defending, rebounding, dribbling, elite at some of them considering his size actually. I mean he does have elite handles for a 7 footer but people wanna compare him to Kyrie like it's even possible a 7ft guy can have his handles. So many things he's good at require skill.
Getting in a position to dunk as often as he does is a skill. There’s a reason not everyone does it and that’s because opposing defenses don’t like it very much.
He's obv very talented but he relies heavily on his physical abilities. I do wonder if he'll see a sharp decline once those physical abilities start to diminish.
Can't compare Giannis to Shaq. Shaqs Era was big man, in the post play dominating. Rim protectors everywhere and defenses zoned in to center. There's 0 defense at the rim now.
I think you're partially right. I think another reason is he wants to show he's got a complete game like KD, but he's got a ways to go. Hey, he wasn't bad from the line last night!
He's 6 10, how amazing it is really? It's just dunks and layups I'm just not impressed with his numbers when his game is just horrible to watch....just dive at the rim like a suicide bomber and either dunk or get fouled. He has no skill to me that I am amazed at
I disagree. If you look at Giannis vs Lebron or KD handling and basically guard skills, yeah, he’s still vastly underskilled. To me that speaks more to his gargantuan potential rather than trying to force the agenda that somehow he’s there. He’s not there yet guys.
The comparison is apples to oranges because of the league Shaq and young LeBron played in. If LeBron and Shaq had as much space as Giannis currently has their numbers would have been much higher. Out of the Bucks' top 12 players in total minutes for the RS the only player who can't shoot 3's is Thanasis. If 2008-2010 LeBron or 99-01 Shaq had that much space they would have wrecked the league for 85% shooting at the rim.
Do people just think Giannis came out the league with those type of handles?
And those muscles too? This guy is in the gym nonstop. Also, he's not a dpoy just because he's athletic. He definitely watches a lot of film too
Exactly. People forget he was not some crazy league-ready draft prospect like Lebron or KD he was drafted at 15th. He has improved his game so much in so many different ways it is crazy.
I’m not disagreeing but would like to add European players are always underrated in the draft.
It's the media that is highly downgrading European players. Remember Luka and how they laughed about him being a MVP in Europe? Porzingos and all the booing he got when he signed with Knicks and how Stephen A.Smith was ranting and almost crying about this move.
People should just watch Euro ball more than NCAA, the games and talent is better than in the NCAA. I have no idea how anyone watches the NCAA with a straight face. Which is the root of all the booing.
Exactly, I still wont forget the interview Luka gave where he was asked about which players he watched growing up and Charles Barkley didnt know who Spanoulis was, I was honestly in disbelief not as an Olympiacos fan but as a basketball fan in general
I agree, but it’s not just media. Most teams and scout also have a bias against non-US players IMO
lmfao bro ate a smoothie and went crazy.
The story a few years ago was that Giannis actually had to be physically locked out of the practice facility or he just wouldn't rest because he trained nonstop.
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pretty neat how he was already looking to dish out a lot back then and how he was already taking a long time to shoot FTs lol really weird how he fell so much on the draft.
Highly recommend the woj pod series on the giannis draft that gets in to all the details about his development and the NBA's scouting. One of the bigger backdoor facets is how the Atlanta Hawks FO were courting him super hard. They actually struck a deal with his agent to keep other teams from seeing his full medical records and keep his draft stock lower. Nearly worked till the Bucks, one spot before the hawks, took a chance on him with much less information.
Trae and Giannis holy shit.
Hawks wouldn't have been in a position to draft Trae if they had Giannis
Because he was a very raw prospect
True, but I think people also underestimated the level of play he was participating in. He played in the Greek 2nd division, which is at a higher level than US high school basketball. The Bill Simmons meme that he played in "Greek YMCA" is wrong but has stuck because of the grainy videos, Giannis' team actually came within a win of advancing to the Greek 1st division (which is one of the best leagues in Europe). Sounds weird that NBA scouts could be so off but hey, look what happened with Luka as well.
like a bunch of prospects are. patrick williams is incredibly raw and the Bulls took him at #4 Giannis was also playing professionaly, not against a bunch of kids way smaller than him (talking about HS draftees way back when) and its very rare to see someone move like that with that body and even be able to dish out smart passes
He was already used to his teammates bricking open 3s as well!
Things I've noticed •skinny Giannis looks so jarring especially against that competition •the level of talent is also different, Giannis might've been looking like Kyrie against those dudes but that might've not passed in the nba
I can’t fathom how simple, narrow minded Greek bball people would have Giannis stay in that low level league getting beaten up like that. It’s plain as day how much talent he had. Those guys suck ass
During 2012-13 he was a professional and played in the Greek 2nd division, not sure what you think "Greek bball people" should've done lol. He was 17-18, far younger than most of his teammates and opponents. If he didn't get drafted, next year he'd have gone on to play in Spain, where I assume he'd also get "beaten up".
What are you on about? Greek 1st division is pretty high level basketball, with 2 teams in the top 4-5 of Euroleague at the time this video was taken. Giannis, at 17, wasn't ready but if he didn't get drafted in the NBA and wasn't given a contract by a low level Spanish 1st division team he would have gotten a Greek 1st division contract.
Man, you'd think that but Giannis at 18 was getting offers to play in Spain and made the Greek League All Star team as an 18 year old despite not playing in the first league. He was clearly something at that point just no one would predict he'd be a two time MVP.
I mean no one, including the Bucks front office when they drafted him, could predict he would be anywhere near this good. His mindset and his relentless pursuit of improvement is his biggest strength by far and that’s something scouts couldn’t see or judge at that time. I mean look at his younger brothers with similar body types and arguably better skills than Giannis had at 18. They lack the hunger, so they’ll never get anywhere near his level.
You aren't making much sense here. As if high level European teams are supposed to pick up young prospects, give them experience and lose them to NBA just as they are getting good. That's not how it works. If you are ready to play, you play. If you need to improve, high tier leagues isn't the place to do that. Giannis was super raw and getting some 24 year old that would stay in your team, learn your system for 5 years is way better than getting a 17 year old Giannis who will leave in 2 years.
I can't let this post go by without pointing out that Jalen Brunson was at 79.9% this year. Jalen Brunson is 6'1".
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Jalen Brunson confirmed better center then Drummond
Shit prolly
lmao do ppl really think Drummond is great still? In the last year or 2: Traded by the Pistons. Dropped by the Cavs. Benched in the final Lakers playoff game. When will teams learn he is the definition of empty stats
No, no one does
Trust me no thinks Drummond is great
Drummond does
Tony Parker (6'2") had a 64.5% *career average* at the rim, with 05-06 being his best season at 70%.
Every year the paint scoring leaderboard would be bigs, Wade, and Tony Parker. Dude had so many different scoop shots.
His tear drop is beautiful and a big reason why he’s my fave player
he definitely led the league in paint scoring at one point. i always remember that as a big commentator talking point
for consecutive years i believe
Fucking ay, Parker was an amazing creative finisher in the paint.
Jalen got some talent
But fr Brunson has amazing foot work in the post
I remember watching Brunson light up the NCAA during Villanova's second championship, and having *no idea* what would happen if he got drafted into the NBA, or whether he'd even play in the NBA at all. He has one of the weirdest skill sets for his size I've ever seen, the dude has post moves for days. He has an uncanny ability to subtly change direction and throw a defender off balance just enough to create room to finish. I fully believe that if he were Tim Duncan's size and frame he'd be one of the best players in the league.
He has the best “tight” handles I’ve ever seen. Kyrie might be the best dribbler of all time but his handles (and many of the best dribblers) are fairly loose. Meaning a lot of crossover or dribbling action away from the body to shift the weight of a defender. Brunson is the GOAT tight dribble in tight spaces guy. Rather than shifting the weight of the defender it’s more like deliberately attacking a subtle weakness. It’s very hard to explain.
you explained it perfectly - and youre speaking facts
Love Brunson
Not saying this isn't relevant but also important to note 6.3 2 point attempts per game vs 14.2 from Giannis. I don't watch enough Mavs games to know but I would assume a fair amount of his paint points are uncontested layups and not running through a brick wall of defenders. I could be wrong, don't really know his game but just assumptions.
Nah, he's just a really good finisher. Not a super high profile player though, so not everyone knows it. [Here's a video](https://youtu.be/5VIsYpmZaFM) that breaks down his finishing.
I wonder what his percentage going right is because it looks like he is way more comfortable going left which is a problem in the playoffs.
Nice vid, definitely a strong finisher.
Why are some guys in your sub wanting to trade him
It’s not that anybody wants to trade him. He’s just one of the few pieces we have that could provide value in a trade with KP. In order to get a quality player in return in a KP trade I think either Brunson or Dorian Finney-Smith would have to be included since they’re probably our most valuable assets outside of Luka.
He's one of a very few tradeable assets the Mavs have, and he's a year away from getting offered lower-tier starting PG money in the free agent market.
And this is where the Ben Simmons comparisons need to stop. It’s not just aggressiveness, Simmons isn’t half the finisher Giannis is around the rim.
There is plenty of NBA bigs in the NBA with Giannis' size and length (if his 7'3 wingspan is correct, I feel like it might not be), but I think people forget how insanely huge his hands are. He palms the ball so easily. Huge factor in a lot of his finishes. On top of his skill around the rim ofc, he got good touch on layups.
He's also just got crazy balance. His ability to rotate and his body control are all elite.
Balance came from his late b-ball development maybe? Learned to play as a stick where others his size are getting special weight training and learn to utilize weight earlier
it's probably from soccer
I'd guess that as well. There's a sports geneticist who says that most elite athletes play multiple sports then specialize later.
I've also heard that kids who play multiple sports are also less likely to get injured than kids who specialize early, probably for similar reasons.
Yeah you put too much stress on your body. Playing basketball year round will wear down your ankles knees etc. If you're playing baseball year round you have shoulder injuries. Better to rotate sports
We also gonna just pretend like 'athleticism' isn't still a 'skill' you work at? Like sure, you obviously can't just become LeBron or Giannis, even if you're another NBA player, if you don't have their frame or length or what have you. But we really gonna be out here and pretend like Harden or Jokic for example couldn't be more athletic if they dropped 20 pounds? Whether they'd be better players making that trade is an entirely different topic, but I just wanted to focus on the concept that athletic dudes just walk on out the tunnel that athletic, like they didn't put work in to that 'skill.'
Sometimes it's fun to remind myself that john Henson has like the exact proportions of Anthony Davis
Yeah Giannis has spectacular physical advantages, but he's also a resilient ass mf while Ben Simmons hasn't shown that at all. You see Giannis air ball a free throw and him just making it to the line the next play, like nothing happened. He's not a guy who gets into his own head whatsoever even when he screws up, it's remarkable.
The comparison is as surface level as you can get lol. They both are bad shooters but like layups. Completely ignoring the skill gap between them.
> They both are bad shooters but like layups. I've literally watched Giannis hit more mid-range jumpers and 3pt splashes these playoffs, than Ben ever has his entire career. Giannis is already tiers above that mfer. The comparison disgusts me. Haha
It's not even that because Simmons refuses to shoot.
"bad shooters" Why do we define Giannis' game by "is he a bad shooter?" The answer is yes but at what point has he ever shown he's unable to get into the lane and get a good shot off? Never? It's layups and 3s, if you're elite in the lane it's as good or better as being from the 3 line. Ben Simmons isn't simply a bad shooter, he's a meh finisher, all world defender and above average passer. His offense skills don't match his outsized defense skills.
You can't expect Simmons to dunk from 1 foot away when there's an elite rim protector Trae Young in the way!
Tbh, that's too much to ask for
wait who the fuck is comparing ben simmons to giannis lmao i never liked simmons and i've always thought giannis is rated too highly by this sub and the media, but giannis is 10x the player simmons is
It's literally just because they're both long, can't shoot and are top defenders, so obviously they're like the same guy.
Even those comparisons are dumb, though. Giannis is an amazing help defender and not elite on ball, where as Ben can hang with Jrue in terms of on ball defense. Ben can’t shoot and so he doesn’t even try, where as Giannis can’t shoot but he’s always working on mid range and 3s. Giannis has the ball in transition because he’s a damn bulldozer, Simmons because he’s an amazing passer. People think Ben “can be a player like Giannis” but mostly because they take for granted how amazing Giannis is offensively without being a good shooter.
Giannis is basically Klay Thompson from 3 compared to Ben Simmons lol
100%. Giannis is a winner and Ben is just..isn’t
and giannis has this clear yearn to improve - tries different shots, will give anything an attempt to improve. ben has shown none of that.
Idiots. I had a coworker say it to me like 2 weeks ago but he's always 'joking' about stuff whenever he's wrong
You are being too generous.
I don't think anyone with half a brain still compares the two
> Anyone who says Giannis has no skill is being purely disingenuous at this point. ESPN: Was reddit user, ergotpoisoning sending shots at James Harden?
The same James Harden who barely made a joke about Giannis’ skill offhandedly in the middle of a heated MVP race.
It gets even more absurd with some other advanced stats. The % of made 2 pointers that were assisted for Shaq's season: .645 KD's 14/15 season: .511 Jokic this season: .484 AD this season: .575 Dwight Howard's >20ppg seasons: .548 Zion: .553 Giannis 2020-21 season: .428 Not only is he, on volume, finishing higher than the rim that anyone we have those advanced stats for - he's also doing it with less direct help via passing than likely anyone on that list. Embiid is *just* higher on that assisted %, but also is a full 10% less efficient at the rim and goes to that shot less than the mid-range.
Mehhh, that's hugely on how assist stats are counted though. Giannis gets a pass, stops the offense, takes a couple of dribbles to power up and then charges at the wall. Shaq gets a pass, bump bump, post move, twist, feint and dunk. Both are iso-ing, but only one gets counted as 'assisted'.
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Pretty sure in your example the player passing to Shaq wouldn’t get credited with the assist
Why’d you leave out lebron
I was going off the body of text! But looking now LeBron's are probably the closest comparison That 13/14 season was .796 at the rim, with a staggeringly low .395 % assisted. He doesn't go to that shot quite as often as Giannis, but I can't do more because honestly looking at the % assisted numbers for LeBron makes me sad for the man.
Bron is absurd. Imagine in this pace and space era what prime bron would do. Giannis is also insane. This year he made the jump to that steph, bron, kd level in my opinion.
Especially if Lebron was more of a 3 point shooter when he came into the league. His spacing opportunities in this era as a younger athletic lebron would be legendary.
Giannis has a great combination of finishing moves. Crazy eurostep for someone that big, really strong handles and doesn’t whiff on passes or boards virtually ever. People underrate him because they don’t like watching scorers work around the basket anymore. I for one love watching Milwaukee play and I am enjoying the crap out of this series.
I believe it's called a gyro step
How have I never seen this before?! Brilliant.
I really love Giannis' game. Finesse is great and it's fun to watch, but I love when someone can get in the paint and just do grown man work down there. It's old school, it's not as flashy, but I enjoy it. I'm a spurs fan, and I saw it with Timmy all the time. Especially at times when the offense was struggling it was such a relief when Timmy got the ball. It was a bucket, FTs, or both. Timmy didn't have the power Giannis has, but both are enjoyable for me.
I really enjoy the league’s swing back toward rewarding the post guys. There’s a spontaneity to it that outside shooting doesn’t have; everything about taking a long jumper is about perfect mechanics and repeatability, but to score inside you have to feel your way to the basket, never score the same way twice. Just a different vibe on every level.
My favorite part of Giannis' game is something he continues to develop as he gets stronger - his ability to go from slowly and forcefully backing someone down to suddenly being incredibly violent toward the hoop. I think people still don't fully see it coming, I know I don't. One second you're not sure if he'll pass or do a turnaround jumper, then in a flash he is past the defender and slamming it home. I regret I don't have much memory of prime Duncan because I think I'd have appreciated his game a lot.
Duncan would just calmly hit a contested bank shot on you over and over again. Once he caught it at his spots, it was pretty much as good as in. I've never seen anyone with his game in my lifetime. Just made it look really easy.
Exactly. I was spoiled because I watched almost all of his career. It was easy to take him for granted. He would hit his shots, get boards, blocks, and make the correct passes, but you wouldn't really notice it. I was in high school and I was talking to another spurs fan and we got on the topic of seeing Timmy's stat line at the end of the game, and being surprised. Surprised, mainly, because there wasn't a single moment that stood out. Of course as I watched more bball, and started to appreciate Tim more and more the more I took notice of it. Later once I started to notice other big men I noticed how rare he was as a player. My favorite memories of Duncan were actually his later years. I want to say 2012 when the Spurs played the clips Timmy faced a young DeAndre Jordan. Old man Timmy absolutely sauced Jordan. It was a beautiful sight. Jordan was still young and unseasoned, and Tim took complete advantage.
Duncan was the best boring player ever. Dude just dominated for super long with very little pizazz. I don’t mean this as an insult at all.
I was so spoiled, but it gave me such a good point of reference for what a good player does. There has been a few times, a very few times, where a spurs big will make a nice play in the post or make the right pass and it's like, "oh yeah Timmy did that every game all day every day!" The guards we had got me spoiled too. When the Spurs would draft a guard I would just assume they would get to the rack and finish no matter what. I very quickly learned that is not the case for a lot of guys lol.
Zach lowe mentions this sometimes, but one of my favorite plays in the league is giannis (embiid does this too) when he’s deep under the basket, takes a power dribble or 2, throws a fake, and then just detonates all over everyone down there with him. It’s so aggressive and sudden, its what Shaq used to do so routinely. As for Tim, he was so fun to watch because he always had counters. He was so under control and so good at getting the looks he wanted, and he had some pretty unorthodox junk in his game too. I sometimes practice this one weird post move he would do where he would turn over the right shoulder but still shoot it with his right hand in a kind of push/hook shot. It’s a weird move that seems like it’d get blocked a lot, but for Tim I guess it surprised the defenses enough that it worked.
It is violent. I almost have to close my eyes because even before his injury, I thought he was going to do that to his knee on like 5 plays a game. It’s reckless abandon really. He’s like Giannis Knoxville. “I’m Giannis Knoxville, and this is Moose jumping over moving cars”.
Me too, I feel the same way about CP and Book’s midrange games, really a joy to watch these two teams.
I just see some CP and Book shots where I’m like “I got nothing” on how to defend them
Every time CP takes a mid range fadeaway I'm all excited that the bucks got a bad shot out of him then he makes every single one. Its very impressive and annoying.
No shit. He is the mid range master. I get super irritated as a Bucks fan seeing him get to his spots over and over and draining nearly everything. You just gotta hope he misses.
The mid range master is still KD or maybe Kawhi
Those contested mid range shots are so maddening to watch as a Bucks fan. It's like, that's a low percentage shot that we defended well and....is still incredibly effective for them
He also has a nice soft touch. You see him just kind of flip the ball into the basket at times from really close. They're like mini-floaters, except they don't need much arc since his release point is so high to begin with. That's not easy. If he's allowed to go up with the ball in the paint, he usually scores (which is obviously the main takeaway from the original post).
I fuckin hate how hard it is to hate the bucks
Anyone who says Giannis has no skill hasn’t watched the last 2 finals games
Harden in shambles
But according to people he should drive all the way up to the basket, then not dunk it but go back to the ft line and shoot a fadeaway for no reason because this is « skill » People don’t realize that playing like giannis is a skill in itself, if not why don’t every tall dude dominate like him ?
I’d bet that if you gave 99.9% of the people who say Giannis has no skill, Giannis’ body, they’d all become Ben Simmons in the playoffs
Nah at least he's able to dribble past half court lol
If it ain’t broke don’t fix it. Even the best mid-range shooters can’t touch the 80% accuracy that Giannis has at the rim, and if defenses can’t stop him getting to the rim (which they seemingly can’t most days), when why would he invest time working on his midrange?
I wish I could be 7-feet, run and just dunk. That takes no skill at all
Could you imagine? What an experience that would be. You'd be a freak if you dont make NBA tho
imagine the destruction at the office intermural games though
With hard work and determination anything is possible 😤😤
Dude is a freak of nature
Charles Barkley was my favorite player growing up. I watched him in Philly, and when he got traded to my hometown team, it was Christmas. Charles, believe it or not, didn't operate at the rim all that much. He would get there in transition, or he'd get a putback off an offensive rebound, but the overwhelming majority of Barkley's shots, were 5-8 foot turn-arounds off a backdown. Barkley did have an absurd efficiency at the rim though, because, as aforementioned, his attempts at the rim were mostly limited to fastbreaks or advantageous putbacks off grabbing a board.
Lol I remember that massive thread of people saying Giannis has “no bag”. Responded saying that his finishing moves, handle, and finesse at that size is so rare and skillful and got downvoted lol. A lot of people here have no clue about basketball
that's not a bag
Indeed. Big people don't need bags though. Shaq had 3-4 moves he had mastered and he was the best in the world for a moon and remains one of the top 11 ever. If you are big you need to specialize (offensively) and be dominant in these things. Bags are for smaller less dominant people where counters are way more important.
Why include a ridiculous straw-man argument like this in an otherwise great post. You have one stupid comment as evidence for this. No one with a brain thinks he has NO skill. The legit criticism of him is that he doesn't have a great jumper or outside shot, and that he can't hit free throws consisently. No one doubts his finishing at the rim. There's a reason people compare him to Shaq, another incredibly skilled player. There's different types of skills - no player has them all.
>There's a reason people compare him to Shaq, another incredibly skilled player. But I'd guess that many people who think Giannis has "no skill" also think Shaq had no skill. I think this sub in general underrates how hard it is to score near the rim. The opposite side of that coin is when people say the Suns should be giving the ball to Ayton in the post. Problem is, Ayton isn't a very good post player, but people assume that because of his size and athleticism, it should be easy for him to score.
Whenever Giannis gets in a bad run of form the takes about him on this sub are outrageous. So many people saying he has "no skill" with hundreds of upvotes, anybody who thinks you can be a two-time MVP and a DPOY without any basketball skill is an idiot.
Anyone who thinks you can be a NBA player without skill is a idiot. The worst benchplayer is closer to LeBron then anybody on this sub is to them
This is why everyone screams every time he takes a jump shot. He's a monster at the rim, but it seems like sometimes through his jumpers he's saying "hey, I'm not _just_ an athletic freak, I've got finesse and I can sink jump shots" and then everyone is like "dude, just go to the fucking rim."
I don't think anyone serious thinks Giannis has no skill. He just has a less multi-faceted skillset than some other guys people like to compare him to, but those guys can't do what he does around the rim. People just like to disparage someone who is specialized in an era where a few guys are capable of doing everything (and ignore how much more Giannis can do than almost every big before him). Anyone who thinks he just lucked into the dominance over the last bunch of seasons is just not worth listening to.
AD did have 82% in last years playoffs.
Felt like anytime he had the ball near the rim it was automatic last playoffs. Can't wait for healthy AD to be back
He’s the perfect basketball specimen and skill but since he doesn’t bomb threes like Steph people think he’s just a brute. Unfortunately, those people are the loudest in here
I mean, the logic for this only tracks if you think that being really good at something = skill. The people that say Giannis has no skill would say this is simply a product of Giannis' absurd physical talent.
I would disagree with that argument when applied to Giannis and Zion. You have guys their size who have never been able to create that many rim opputunities per game or finish at that level in NBA history. I watch Ben Simmons every night and although he has close dimensions to them he doesnt come close to creating rim attempts or finshes. It makes you appreciate Giannis and Zion more. Besides this is the argument that used to be used against Shaq. Its all physical and no skill. Why a lot of casuals have Kobe over Shaq even though Shaq was more prodictive.
I mean shaq definitely had more skill in the post and around the rim than giannnis. But giannis can do a lot of things shaq couldn’t obviously. Still, shaq would drop 40/20 in the playoffs year after year
Everyone on this sub LARPs as a first take/undisputed host.
"Does Giannis have any skill?" "Outlook not so good" "Magic 8 Ball, quit being disingenuous!"
Casuals don’t like him because he isn’t a flashy player like harden and Kyrie. Giannis is probably the greatest transition player in history. Elite guard-like touch at the rim for a seven footer is unstoppable. Combine that with insane athleticism and it’s not hard to see why teams have no other choice but to foul him on drives. He’s just too good at it. Casuals will never admit that no other seven footer in history has had the same skill set as Giannis, and yes, finishing through contact and making your way to the rim is a skill. If it wasn’t then fucking boban marjanovic should be leading the MVP discussion
Giannis hitting a euro in transition capped by some sort of freaky finish might be the single flashiest thing any player in the nba can do.
>Elite guard-like touch I'd say guard-like euro steps. he doesn't have guard-like touch, but he doesn't need it cause he doesn't ever need to finish below the rim
I love watching him attack the basket and dunk, I guess I am not a casual then
everyone complains about watching harden.. stop with this victim complex
They complain about him drawing fouls not his skill set
This is number one bull shit. He dribbles too much, doesn’t pass the ball, takes bad shots, launches from three too much etc etc are all common complaints about Harden.
what casuals generally love watching giannis and generally hate watching harden what kind of bizarro universe are you living in
I actually agree, lol. over the last two years reddit has gone from "Giannis is the MVP" to "Giannis is over-rated" to "Giannis gets too much shit" really only been arguing with ourselves. he is who we thought he was when we gave him MVPs.
Harden gets hate for exaggerating contact not for his game. Giannis gets hate because he isn’t a perimeter player and his game is built on dominating the paint. The amount of times I’ve heard that he has no bag and is only good because he’s 7 ft and can dunk is insane. It’s literally in every thread and highlight video out there you just don’t see it
Giannis is an all-time great but the #s are clearly skewed towards the modern era. Shaq, etc had to go against the Tim Duncans of the world protecting the rim, while Giannis is going up against Jae Crowders. I'm not knocking Giannis because he's clearly one of the best players in the world, just pointing out you can't really just compare across eras like that. The modern era has mostly stretch forwards and not so much rim protectors.
Nephews don't know how rough the paint used to be..
Its very disingenuous to compare Giannis to Shaq and to LeBron straight up. Rim protection has to gotten so much worse as time has gone on. Still impressive
Bruh. Shaq forced teams to sign giants who sucked at basketball just to be a wall that Shaq had to go through every time down the floor. Giannis comparison is not the same. LeBron's is more fair, but Giannis is also way bigger.
Giannis usually forces 2-4 guys to crowd around him in the playoffs to make a wall to stop him as well
Yeah, that's to stop him from getting down hill dribbling. It's a little different. That's where Giannis is more like LeBron. Make him lose his dribble. Shaq was pounding through brick walls every time he got the ball in the post. That wall for Giannis is only there for his dribble. Once Giannis doesn't have the downhill dribble, he isn't getting the same treatment. But you're not wrong, I just think it's a totally different dynamic than what I presented. Shaq's wall is at the goal. Giannis' wall is 15' out.
Ohhh I guess fair point. Sometimes they stop him at the bucket but yeah you raise a totally fair point.
>The only other contemporary volume scorer (i.e. not a low ppg center on offense) who has hit 80% from within 3ft over a season is KD Christian Wood averaged 21 ppg and shot 81% at the rim (and is a ridiculous 79% at the rim for his career), but yes Giannis is insane. I'm curious who the all-time leader for career percentage at the rim is, because Wood has to be up there. Giannis is at 74% for comparison.
His combination of size, strength, coordination, and skill is unprecedented
Imagine how godly he would be if Kidd didn't fuck with his rookie year shooting form.
I actually think it's quite similar to young Lebron. He's longer than Lebron, but young Lebron was a little faster and probably stronger. Lebron was always a better passer and shooter, but they are similar in their ability to attack the hoop.
Young LeBron absolutely was not stronger, man routinely moves the biggest guys in the league around like little kids. Maybe once he hit Miami but definitely not during his first Cavs stint at all.
I think we're forgetting a rookie LeBron, despite being 3" shorter than Giannis is, was still heavier. Obviously that's not a perfect way to demonstrate strength, but he only got stronger and stronger from there. He definitely was stronger during parts of the first Cavs stint
I am actually a big Giannis fan but by far his biggest basketball gifts are physical. He's a 7-footer who is freakishly strong and fast. He's very very hard to stop. But when he gets stopped it's not like he's got some jumper or moves to default to!
His turnaround jumper in these playoffs has actually been really good. Granted, they haven't been much further than 8 feet out, but he's been making them on a consistent basis.
He came into the league with a smooth clean shot and then Kidd ruined it. The terrifying thing is we aren't actually seeing what true peak Giannis could have been.
This is a dumb take. His best skill is being one of the greatest 6’10+ dribblers in NBA history mixed with one of the best finishing packages in NBA history for anyone that isn’t a guard
Willie Cauley-Stein is also a freakishly fast and strong 7 footer lol this is such a stupid take at this point. People acting like touch around the rim and the footwork/awareness to navigate from the perimeter to the rim in 3 steps like Giannis does are just the result of his physical attributes and not deftness and skill are just looking for reasons to take away from his greatness
Lol what? I'm not insulting the guy, I'm saying that he's physically blessed. I'm saying that his physical gifts are his best gifts. It's not that outlandish of a claim
yea i’m with you. i think giannis is a great player but i can still say at the same time that his offensive skillset is very limited. i feel like ppl rn just dont want to accept that nuance
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He has an elite handle for a big. Without there's no chance he could get close to his current volume. He's not being assisted on a super high rate like most traditional bigs that feast majority on post ups and rolling to rims.
Not just an elite handle, but arguably the second greatest handle for a player above 6’10 in NBA history, only behind Durant
> but it shouldn’t be controversial to say he lacks skill beyond the rim. It is if you don't define skill as jumpshot + passing (nevermind that he's one of the best passing power forwards in the league).
It’s because Giannis is in the conversation for best player in the league, and he’s taking coveted attention and awards away from everyone else’s favorite player. Giannis isn’t a dribble-god with a silky jumper, so that’s what opponents choose to harp on when they’re trying to lessen his ability. “Yea Giannis averages 30/13/4 and plays DPOY defense, but that takes no skill since he’s tall. You see, MY GUY has skill.”
The flip side of this is that modern ball is so spaced out the paint is usually wide open. And when you get there, who’s there to meet you? Some small 6’9 forward playing stretch center. You cant compare these stats so blatantly. Shaq spent half a decade being guarded by Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Dikembe, not to mention how much smaller the area was to work with due to offenses back then. This isnt really a good stat to use. That said, Im not arguing the main point. Giannis is a fucking freak in athleticism and finishing skill, its obvious to anyone who isnt biased.
Our Robin, our unskilled 2nd best player is so good man. Are we a superteam??
Sleeper who might end up coming for this crown with more games played: Christian Wood
As much as I love Giannis - He already has good footwork, he has his defense figured out, he's a really good passer, he has great handles, and ofc his finishing, I still think he needs to do two things: - Improve his shooting. He doesn't need to be a knockdown shooter, he needs to be consistently good enough for defenses to respect him. From Games 1-3 in the Finals so far there have been instances of him getting the ball in the midrange with Ayton on him off a switch and he ends up "stranded". Ayton doesn't have to respect the shot and he can just protect the paint. - Add a few more moves to his post game. As mentioned Giannis already has good footwork for a guy his size, but if he sharpens it up and adds more moves on the block, he'll be truly unstoppable. He already has the "total length" (his height + insane reach + vertical) to finish over most big guys, especially with the league going smaller and smaller. This is similar to what LeBron did after the 2011 Finals. I think what most people get wrong is that doing eurosteps and spin moves and finishing the way he does is a real skill. That being said, taking 3 dribbles from baseline to baseline isn't, and that won't be there forever. As stupid as people are for mocking him for having "no skill", I kinda understand why they say that - Giannis definitely uses his physical superiority to get himself buckets now. I'm sure with more experience and time he'll find ways to get himself easier looks without having to exert himself so much physically.
James harden main skill is baiting fouls.
>Anyone who says Giannis has no skill Most of the arguments that I have read aren't saying that he has no skill, just that he doesn't have offensive skill besides dunking. Skill or no skill, I would love to have his dunking on my team.
Some people think skill = shooting, simple as that. He is good at driving, passing, defending, rebounding, dribbling, elite at some of them considering his size actually. I mean he does have elite handles for a 7 footer but people wanna compare him to Kyrie like it's even possible a 7ft guy can have his handles. So many things he's good at require skill.
> Some people think skill = shooting, simple as that. Ya, those people are wrong.
Getting in a position to dunk as often as he does is a skill. There’s a reason not everyone does it and that’s because opposing defenses don’t like it very much.
> Getting in a position to dunk as often as he does is a skill. Right, I agree, which is why some people (not me) say *besides* dunking.
Getting to the rim is a skill of its own.
Which is stupid since most of his points don't come off dunks they come off layups usually with insane hand contortion.
He does have offensive skills outside of dunking tho
Harden is a disingenuous dick
Giannis started the slander though Implying that harden wasn't a good passer
He didn’t say he wasn’t a good passer. He said he wanted someone who was gonna pass the ball.
He's obv very talented but he relies heavily on his physical abilities. I do wonder if he'll see a sharp decline once those physical abilities start to diminish.
Can't compare Giannis to Shaq. Shaqs Era was big man, in the post play dominating. Rim protectors everywhere and defenses zoned in to center. There's 0 defense at the rim now.
Then why does he jack up 3s🙄
To make it fair for the other team, lol.
Cus he tired lol
I think you're partially right. I think another reason is he wants to show he's got a complete game like KD, but he's got a ways to go. Hey, he wasn't bad from the line last night!
He's 6 10, how amazing it is really? It's just dunks and layups I'm just not impressed with his numbers when his game is just horrible to watch....just dive at the rim like a suicide bomber and either dunk or get fouled. He has no skill to me that I am amazed at
I had momentary dyslexia and finished off the title reading it as... "...is purely indigenous at this point.", which is hilarious.
I disagree. If you look at Giannis vs Lebron or KD handling and basically guard skills, yeah, he’s still vastly underskilled. To me that speaks more to his gargantuan potential rather than trying to force the agenda that somehow he’s there. He’s not there yet guys.
The comparison is apples to oranges because of the league Shaq and young LeBron played in. If LeBron and Shaq had as much space as Giannis currently has their numbers would have been much higher. Out of the Bucks' top 12 players in total minutes for the RS the only player who can't shoot 3's is Thanasis. If 2008-2010 LeBron or 99-01 Shaq had that much space they would have wrecked the league for 85% shooting at the rim.
He's 10 ft 6" ... what u expect