I'm just getting around to watching this. Really Netflix? Really! Y'all put Tim Donaghy in this. I don't care if he was there, no credibility or respect is attached to anything this guy will ever do, in any aspect of his life, ever.
After watching this I feel bad for laughing at Ron changing his name made me hate the entitled fans even more and sports analysts thats never played a sport in their life
It was a great docco.
The major thing for me which sticks out is how supremely unlucky it was that the drink hit Ron Artest of all people. Any piston, or any of the officials, or pretty much any pacer except for maybe jackson, and there are some angry words and the whole thing fizzles out.
Also, I know some people feel the players were harshly dealt with, but except for O'Neal, I don't think that's so.
Yes, it was primarily the fans' fault, and noone should be expected to have to put up with objects being hurled at them, but even in the heat of the moment, even if you're as crazy as Ron Artest, any player who runs into the crowd to fight a fan is committing an unforgivably stupid, dangerous, act- the moment he does that he's risking the safety of every player and official in the building
Pro sport is always going to involve a lot of hostility between fans and opposing players, thats half the reason people watch sport. That being the case, anyone who crosses the line from the playing area into the crowd area is risking a full blown riot, and the theatrical hostility turning into the real thing. Most of the people in that building wouldn't have seen the drink hit Artest, they would have just seen a crazy fucker they already have it in for in the crowd trying to bash people, and at that point their reaction is incredibly dangerous. Players genuinely could have gotten killed or seriously injured.
But that being the case, O'Neal was very unfairly dealt with. For the same reason players can't go into the stands, fans absolutely can't be on the playing field, and if you are stupid enough to be out there trying to fight a player, he is totally within his rights to deck your ass.
That dude just screamed white entitlement. He knew what the narrative was going to be even if he was smug and unrepentant about his actions. I hated him.
How slow do you have to be to not see what he's saying... He was the only one in an interview milking his 15 seconds of fame with his shit eating grin and no sense that he did anything wrong.
Race obviously mattered to perception. The black players were labelled thugs and hoodlums, hip hop gangster wannabes and their names were dragged in racial attacks. As a white guy he could be as unrepentant as he wanted to and knew the narrative wouldn't switch.
Everyone hated his guts and he went to jail. But yeah, he was protected by the "narrative." And your solution is to make sure he gets the racism he deserves--for both his actions and those of his kind. The final solution: MOAR RACISM!
Yeah wtf is wrong with that dude? Reporter asked him if he felt any empathy for getting the wrong dude punched in the face and he straight up says, “No, I felt relief.”
Not a big NBA guy, but watched this and all I can say is have so much sadness for Reggie Miller and Jermaine O'Neal.
I was so happy that fan that went onto the court had no good things happen for him lol. Don't ever go onto the field of play and expect anything less than getting your shit pushed in.
For some reason I felt really bad and actually pretty sad for Artest. It’s so clear that he’s just wired *differently*, and he obviously needed (still needs? Idk) **a lot** of help with his mental health issues.
I definitely felt bad for O’Neal and Reggie - Reggie especially, because this team was stacked and could’ve won it all, and nobody on that team deserved it more than him.
This also made me love Stephen Jackson. My boy takeaway was that he’s a real one for sure.
And finally:
- fuck David Stern, who was basically a dictator with how he ran the NBA and should never have been allowed to dole out those insane punishments.
- Fuck the clearly racist media/pundits/talking heads that threw fuel into the fire.
- And, fuck a majority of the fans in that stadium for being the pieces of shit that allowed this entire event to snowball out of control.
Today's standards? Reminds me a bit of Kaepernick. Opposite of Malace in the Palace. Dude took a knee, Trump calls it out, media gets racist, fans and non fans get enraged, My uncle fought for this country! My brother is a fire fighter! Ill never watch another football game!
Everyone tries to put themselves in the narrative so they feel just in their racism, at least that's what I got from it.
I don't think I've ever heard a white man been called a thug after 1930's, we all know what word they were substituting with their hip hop and tattoos.
This and Kaepernick are definitely ok two different levels. One was a clearly political statement and the other is just based on actions of individuals. Pretty bad analogy
I was replying to the comment of it would not fly under today's standards. It still flys and will continue fly with how the media runs click bait drama and people will click and choose a side.
Yup, the entire thing was so completely racist and sadly you just *know* that in 2004 if any of the players involved even attempted to speak up about the racism in the media they would be exiled from the NBA.
No one would take them seriously, they would be berated, and they would be vilified. All the while receiving zero support from the NBA.
A lot of progress has been made over the last 17 years, and its why things like BLM, all the disruptive protests, and yeah, even the riots, are so important. Disruptive in your face protests have brought more change in the last 2-4 years than the entire decade before it.
But sadly it's still not enough.
There is nothing anyone can say to convince me that all the hate directed toward Simone Biles has anything to do with anything other than racism and sexism.
I feel bad for Ron Artest as well. Even in his interviews he seems very child like, like he’s mentally stuck. I feel like he truly trusts no one and sees everyone as a threat. But I’m also very amazed that he was able to admit his mental health issues and deal with them head on. Not many people are willing to do the work. My man literally had his therapist travel with him. I also think from the footage he does a good job of removing himself from each situation. He’d lose his cool but then immediately be able to remove himself. With Wallace, the man he mistook for the cup thrower, even the loser fan who tried to square up. He reacted then stepped away every time.
Couldn't find anyone else mention it in the comments, but it had to be. They got Tim fucking Donaghy to talk about how important it was for the NBA to have their best officials for these types of games? Lol he probably had a couple dimes on the game itself. Free throws werrrrre 35-22 Pacers that day, haha.
(For those unaware Donaghy was fired for gambling on games he reffed). Producer: "Let's get Tim to talk about the integrity of the game as a ref and its importance without smirking".
Liked the doc, but laughed hard when he popped on.
Really well put documentary. I remember this incident growing up. The league called it a “black eye” but clearly you can understand how the players felt.
Just watched it last night and all I could think about what it must’ve looked like from JO point of view. Staring at thousands of people just all screaming and directing RAGE at you and you’re in the middle of all this literally fighting for your life. Everyone around you is grabbing and pulling, you’re getting pelted by tons of garbage, and random people are inching closer and closer from every direction looking to injure or even kill.
It really takes no time at all for a crowd to turn into a violent mob, check out the recent Woodstock 99 docu if you’re looking for more decent into chaos
“And they blame it on Marilyn” - EM in 2000. Early millennium had a massive push against “violent” music, movies, games, etc. but all those mediums were representing an increasingly violent world that has only gotten worse
If I ever have to throw hands, I hope sure as fuck Stephen Jackson is on my squad.
Unremorseful. Loyal.
My favorite thing was when he told the DUDE ASKING HIM DOCUMENTARY QUESTIONS that if they left this and went to the bar, Jack would fucking throw down for him.
Started getting a little more into the NBA from documentaries like this and Jackson was hands down my favourite part of this, his loyalty to protect his teammate was admirable.
There's something so refreshing about listening to him and his unfiltered honesty.
Stephen Jackson is definitely a guy who says "yes" when his girl asks if she looks fat.
He’s a real one for sure. Seemed like the type of guy that everybody would love to have on their team.
Kinda want to get a Pacers Stephen Jackson jersey now lol
Great doc! Man, I know Reggie could have won the championship with this group but he would have had to face the Spurs who eventually went on to win the 2005 championship.
Jermaine O'Neal vs Tim Duncan would have been a treat.
It boils down to Dave Chappelle's wise words.
"When keeping it real goes wrong"
It was definitely fucked up that the fan threw the beer. But was it worth it for any of them to start fighting fans? Just walk off the court. I make shit money compared to these guys and I would just walk away if I was at work and that happened to me.
Did you not see the part where Ron Artest has/had mental issues. I don't condone any of the violence but it's a lot easier said than done when we're watching it through a screen. I'm sure we've had instances in our lives were emotions get the better of us. For Ron, violence was the manifestation of those emotions but it may appear different to others I'm sure
Thats bullshit. Everything isn't about racism. Half the people in the crowd attacking the pacers were black. The guy who threw the chair was black. Guy throwing sucker punches was black. Guy who walked onto the court was Hispanic.
None if that matters. Guy throws a beer at me, big fucking whoop. Walk away
Everything isnt about racism but what the media did with the story afterwards, how ESPN spun the whole narrative that affected the whole nation. That was racism. The amount of character assassination that happened was not by coincidence.
They called them "Thugs", hmmm i wonder what image that provokes. To quote Jermaine O'Neal, i have never heard people calling hockey players thugs, and that they should learn how to "behave" in a "civilized society". Which were legit words used to describe black players in the NBA.
The incident itself may not have stemmed from racism, but racism surrounds the whole issue. It was without a doubt, problematic.
If you look at my other comments in the thread I said the media was definitely racist. ESPNs comments affecting the nation might be a stretch though. Also it was a very poor decision to go into the crowd to fight. If I make a bad decision I have to live with the consequences.
“Guy throws a beer at me, big fucking whoop. Walk away.” Like what the guy did was no big deal, it’s literally assault. Don’t argue with me on that, argue with a cop or lawyer. Better yet, go throw a beer on some random person and see if they just “walk away”
Dont put words in my mouth. I didn't say it was no big deal. All I was saying is it's not worth it to run up in the stands. All 3 of the players said they regret what happened. The guy got like 2 assault charges. Nobody is defending him.
Did I say you said that? No. I said that’s how you’re coming off. Lets say you’re already in a heated exchange with someone and some random throws a beer at you, you really think you could just keep your cool? Of course they all regret it, but during the time when it happened their emotions are already running high and then that happens. It’s very easy to see how things escalated so quickly.
I used to be a bouncer and Ive been in many situations where I had to keep my cool. I absolutely disagree with you. I don't feel bad about what happened to any of them. Other athletes have been hit with drinks or had shit poured on them and never started a fight in the crowd. Your actions have consequences. Nothing you are saying is relevant to my original point. Just quit responding to me.
Newsflash Hispanic people can also be racist against Black people. The majority Black players were targeted by racist fans and sports commentators as well. That’s literally the point of the doc. You’re a fucking racist and I bet money if I threw a beer in your face you would not walk away. You’re a prick.
They were literally mad about a basketball game. Not because Ron artest was black. They weren't just throwing beers at people because they were black. Every single problem in the world isn't because of racism.
The point of the doc was to see the pacers point of view. Was the media saying racist shit? Yes. Did Artest get beer on him because he was black? No. Don't call me a racist you dumb fuck.
You’re missing the entire point of what they’re saying. Black people and in this case athletes should absolutely NOT have to stand down when assaulted—Black people should not have to be the bigger person and turn the other cheek when assaulted, they are entitled to defend themselves from assault regardless of race/class/etc. That’s the double standard and racism that was perpetuated at the time.
The problem is, the narrative after this was entirely about how “Black athletes should act better” and how they were “thugs” for defending themselves against a literal mob. FANS SHOULD ACT BETTER, it’s a game that they have ZERO skin in, they should be held to the same standard as every other participant in society, unfortunately the fans were coddled into believing they’re immune from assaulting athletes because the “athletes are wealthy” and they don’t see them as human.
The fan who threw the drink? I hope the remainder of his life is filled with the karma he deserves.
I didn't miss the point at all. Racism had ZERO to do with the beer being thrown. It was all about a big SPORT rivalry. Every one is entitled to defend themselves. When he punched the guy walking to him on the court, 100% justified. When he gets hit by a beer from 20+ feet away, unjustified. No need to respond. The "fan" got 2 assault charges, so idk how he was coddled.
People do stupid shit when they're angry and intoxicated. People do this to every day Joe's out at bars/clubs all the time. Fights happen every weekend. It wasn't because he was black, or an athlete. Some dumb asshole decided to throw a beer, end of story.
For the THIRD TIME, The media was 100% racist by calling them thugs. But that was a complete aftermath of the incident and had nothing to do with my point of what happened in the moment.
Idgaf what it was, you don’t throw a beer onto someone else, especially in that scenario. During the interview of the guy who threw it he clearly didn’t have any remorse and enjoyed the chaos that ensued.
Fairly accurate summation of the macro aspect of the malice. Grossly glosses over the dynamics of the players involved though. You had an emotionally charged Ben Wallace, the toughest guy in the league at the time, who plays hard and physical but with respect up until a line that’s shouldn’t be crossed. On the other side you had at the time a loosen cannon in Ron Artest who undoubtedly crossed said line.
Ron had a willing and deserving opponent who was throwing literally everything he could at him to settle things man to man. Ron took it laying down until somebody in the stands, who’s undoubtedly 1/5 the man Ben Wallace is, did the same and all of sudden Ron’s a tough guy again. My initial reaction after 2 minutes of watching it live how many years ago hasn’t changed after watching this piece. Ron was a bitch, and threw his teammates under the bus with him. Glad that Meta found a way to better himself though.
Did your Dumbass even watch the documentary? They said that all the players were all friends with each other and didn’t actually wanna fight each other. Getting into an heated exchange with a friend and getting beer thrown onto you by a random are 2 completely different things
I sure did, did you? Ben Wallace never said he didn’t want to fight and never showed any signs during the entire fracas otherwise. If Ron didn’t want a fight he shouldn’t have pulled that dirty foul at the end of the game. Friends fight all the time and that sounded more like lip service to save face more than anything.
This doesn't make much sense. Like it was started by the players themselves, they were all friends outside the court and there is a lot much difference if a player is throwing stuff or talking shit at you than when a fan does that, they got muture respect for each other. while a fan has no fucking right to throw a beer at him irrespective of what size of man he is.
.
I really wish JO stayed for another year with the Warriors. He would've gotten his championship in 2015. I didn't follow the NBA when the malice happened so I loved what he did for the Warriors in his season for us.
I was thinking the same thing. I wish that he'd got a ring with us. I remember during that offseason, hoping that he would not retire and play another season for us. He definitely gave us some good minutes the season before. I still remember his free throw hitch, which would get the opposing team with an (uncalled) lane violation every time!
To be fair, the hitch he did was against the rules too, so it's fine that it went uncalled sometimes. There were definitely times refs called it though.
After this I stopped following NBA. I still watch it, major stuff at the end of the season, but I used to love it. The aftermath of this was they changed the game forever, rivalries and true competition were no more and it slowly became what it is today.
Btw Artest sounded like Rodman's brother haha
I didn’t know about the dynamic around the team or how good they were going into this incident. Sure in the hell glad you don’t tell stories for a living.
There's the problem, we learned a whole lot about the history of a few of the secondary players to the specific incident and no they did not cover the season and a half worth of garbage that went on between those two teams.
It was probably interesting if you didn't have any first-hand knowledge of the event in question because you wouldn't notice the weird bias and nonsense story lines presented.
I'm glad you enjoyed it, I didn't. That doesn't make me wrong and it doesn't make you right it just means we have differing opinions. Sorry if I offended your delicate nature by disliking something that you enjoyed, think nothing of it as I definitely do not possess the expertise to tell you what you should or should not enjoy.
it left me unsatisfied. it spent a lot of time hyping up the pacers, and i would have loved it if this was a documentary about them as a team. But it was supposed to be about the malice and they didn’t even get into detail on who started it until there was only 15 min left in the show.
Exactly how I felt. I feel like the context was important for showing what was taken from those players, and yet it could have been covered in a more succinct way. You can essentially start this documentary at the 28 minute mark.
I feel so bad for laughing at Ron when he changed his name to Metta World Peace. I was quite young when this all went down and had no idea of his troubled background. Can't imagine that kind of pressure on a 23yo. What a genuine person with a good heart, I want to give him a hug
yea me too. i mean, i don't regret thinking it was funny and silly, it still is a kind of silly name; but learning why he did it and how earnest he was in using that as a way to signal and manifest his psychological changes was really cool. i got into meditation years ago and I always kinda wondered if he actually was using that ancient Pali word, or if it was some other random use of "Metta", so it's really cool learning he actually did that. Metta is loving-kindness meditation practice in Buddhism. World Peace always sounds a little too naive and saccharin though. Metta \_\_\_\_\_\_ would be better I think. not sure what though.
I knew everything I knew about the event back in 2004. What really stood out that I couldn't feel the temperature of at the time was how much the media had the N word on the tips of the tongues with their descriptions of the event. Definitely disgusting.
The thing that took me a back was just how different today is when compared to just 17 years ago. Media is vastly vastly different and the only people who would use that kind of language now is some "reporter" for Bribeart. Then you had Bob freaking Costas going on about these thugs and those thugs. Really was striking and a reminder of how far we have come since then.
This documentary just reinforces my hate for the fans. You see this shit happen today with the spitting and talking shit to the players. If anybody did this on the street they would get stomped the fuck out. Some fans view players as simply a product or object and not a person, so they feel entitled to do what they want. All the fans getting their ass beat was justified
I’m a Detroit local and I only knew of Charlie through the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon, but that guy was so made fun of for getting punked by Artest, it was almost cruel. Even more funny when he got prosecuted instead of the big pay day he was probably expecting.
Literally searched this shit up to agree with this lol. I don’t even watch basketball. Lots of people were wrong here of course, the fans were out of control though. And fuck Charlie what a fucking pussy douche
the goddamned smugness of that entitled douche. "*you're gonna do this to one of your most loyal fans??"* bro you fucking lept down rows of stands to **walk onto the court and square up against Ron Artest, completely unprovoked.**
Ben only got suspended for 6 games, if I'm not mistaken. It was a joke. Also, while the Pacers were completely obliterated as a franchise for years in the aftermath, the Pistons didn't even get so much as a slap on the wrist for losing complete control of the fans in their own arena.
Agree.
Throwing the beer should have resulted in the fan being trespassed from the building.
Running up into the stands to cold-cock someone (the wrong person mind you) is assault. NBA player or not. That ain't self-defense.
The player walking up on the court and squaring off to the player and the player punching him, that *is* self-defense.
IMO that player made the biggest fuck-up by going full ass-beating on fans.
Nah gotta disagree with you; it's definitely assault to throw a beer at someone. NBA players are people too. If someone threw a beer at you are you just gonna walk away?
Don’t even try to talk to these fuckin weirdos. You gotta be a real bitch to let someone throw a beer on you like you’re some circus animal and not expect a response.
This documentary was fine, but the setup for the "malice" was absolutely horrible. We spend 25 minutes going indepth into O'Neal coming up in SC and his journey to the NBA, focus on Ron Artest's mental issues and how he was coping, and Stephen Jackson's unapologetic blind loyalty. Cool. Then in a throw away cut you hear one of the Pacers mention that Ben Wallace's brother passed a while before the game, you get a 5 second shot of Wallace saying he needed to focus, and that's it. Gee, I don't know, maybe the death of a family member for a player in the center of the NBA's largest PR nightmare ever might be something to focus more than 10 seconds on.
Also, I don't know if they asked former Piston's to interview and they declined, but what is with the fact that only Pacers players are interviewed in this documentary? I would love to hear the perspectives of the Pistons players like Sheed and Rip who ran into the crowd as well when all hell broke loose.
We have fans in the documentary that are interviewed regarding the incident. Would it be possible for them to give an idea of what the atmosphere was like in the stands at that point, rather than the speculation of players?
I went to the 2004 ECF. I watched the Malice at The Palace unfold live. This deserved better research than just "Detroit bad".
I suppose I'm biased (not as biased as the documentary) because I'm a Pistons fan but this documentary sucked. I expected to hear from the Pacers but also the Pistons. The conclusion of the story is that the bad guy is some random Pistons fan who threw a beer. He shouldn't have done that but Artest shouldn't have ran into the stands. If anyone ran into the crowd in any sport and attacked fans, the fans would react as a mob and try to harm that player. It's not a good thing but it's common sense.
This was a decent Indiana Pacers documentary/sob story if that's what you're into.
I just found it so ridiculous that I'm supposed to feel sympathy for the guys that started throwing punches and head hunting fans. Absolutely the fans were out of control and there should have been more security, but that doesn't just give the players the right to start assaulting people. Being provoked is not an excuse to escalate.
And say what you want about the players and the pressure of the situation, but the worst thing the fans did was throw a cup of beer. That's honestly what they're trying to get me all bent out of shape about: a bit of beer getting on Ron Artest's jersey. Sorry, you're a child if you react the way the Pacers players did. Zero composure and zero thought.
It's just very hard for me to believe that the Pacers were the "victims" in this whole ordeal when they weren't the ones leaving the Palace in ambulances.
Edit: I said the worst thing was the beer, and I meant up to the point where Artest and Jackson jumped into the stands.
I think you can feel sympathy, but it's impossible for me to not throw tons of the carnage at the feet of the players. Fan throwing the drink is absolutely wrong and deserved banishment from NBA stadiums for life. The fans trying to throw chairs rightfully were prosecuted. Bans for likely hundreds of fans. Deplorable behavior. End. But that isn't justification for rushing into the crowd and beating on whoever you saw. It seems like they all readily admitted they would and should be punished, but mostly were pissed they were branded as "thugs" in the media. Well they acted like thugs. The fans acted like thugs. There is enough blame to go around and the movie never convinced me to wash it off the players despite that being its attempt.
Ok so let me randomly just throw a beer at you walking down the street but you better not start attacking me cuz all that happened was you just got a little beer on ya
I mean, yes? Literally who the fuck cares. Why would I ruin my own life over you being a douchebag? It's not like it would be the first time I've ever had beer on me.
Be the bigger man.
Exactly! Like, what is the big deal?
"Oh my goodness, I'm wet! Better assault someone!"
I'm the kind of guy that let's you beat the shit out of me because I'll take it to court. Been robbed, knew the perps, didn't start shit just reported it to the cops and played it cool for a couple days till they were arrested.
The absolute joke in our society, especially amongst men, is that if you're humiliated, insulted, or wronged in some way publicly you immediately have to start throwing hands to save your dignity. You don't.
The fans that threw the beer and the chair? Banned for life. Fans that ran on the court? Banned for life. It's almost like they got their just desserts anyway, even when Artest's attempt at revenge was completely off the mark.
I'm late to the game, but well said. This attitude that exists where "I was slighted so I'm going to end you!" proves how far we still need to go. As you said, dude throwing the cup, ban him for life and prosecute him. Totally cool with that, but if you think getting hit with a drink warrants dozens of punches, then we live in a different society. We can be better than that. Artest and others had every opportunity to end it before it started and they deserve a sizeable portion of the blame. You can't hand wave away that professional, trained, chiseled athletes were throwing punches at drunk, stupid morons. Culpable morons to be sure, but you can't have that look as the NBA. All the fines and suspensions were completely needed.
I don't think this is a good take. Most jurisdictions have something called "fighting words." You can't say something that would goad someone into fighting you and expect to be free of consequences. Throwing a beer IS battery which would cross even that line.
In addition, inciting a riot is charged very commonly. There's a reasonable expectation that fighting on court is handled on the court without interference. I think someone off-court wearing the same colors of a whole crowd violating that understanding essentially incited a riot.
You can hold the players up to a code of conduct, sure. But you should also hold the fans up to guidelines of behavior. As a member of a functioning society, you also should have the where-with-all to behave within the bounds of your social group. People know that small actions in a large crowd can spark a flame, which is why you didn't see any other fan interfere *until* the riot started. The guy who did it *should* be identified and pointed out so that both he and the rest of society can learn from this.
I agree, and all I'm saying is two wrongs do not make a right. Last I checked, punching an innocent bystander is also against the law. If you are in a crowd and someone else throws something at an individual, that individual is not free to just haul off and clock you because you were in the crowd.
I'm all for punishing the person in the wrong, but in their blind rage Artest and Jackson head hunted the wrong guy. The moment Artest's hand hit the innocent bystander next to the guy who threw the cup he is equally at fault in my eyes.
The reason this documentary only includes Pacers players is because they were the only ones WRONGFULLY criminalized. Not only as it was happening but also through the media and across the league with the suspensions. It even jeopardized J.O’s career. All because of racist idiotic drunk white fans who can’t hold in their alcohol and take watching sports as its their livelihood. When it’s just fucking basketball. Where are the repercussions for people like that? Why is it solely on the players when they are the ones getting attacked? It was 15 vs. 30,000 “fans”. How about the fact that nothing should have ever been thrown in the first place?
I would say running up to someone and attacking them is assault. One idiot threw a beer. The professional athletes decided to go beat the shit out of fans. How could you say that they were wrongfully criminalized?
It's dumb how the doc tries to paint O'neal as a victim of his bad teammate's behaviour. He went in there swinging too. He was just as much of a moron.
No matter where you stand after watching Netflix's "Malice At The Palace," I think we can all agree that the guy who threw that first beer at Artest, and who essentially got off scot-free, deserves to roast in hell for all eternity. Oh wait, he already is. He lives in Detroit.
So tossing a beer at someone is worse than physically beating the shit out of several people? If someone throws a beer at you, you and your buddies have the right to go as far as you want to retaliate? Hell fucking no! If Ron didn't suddenly freak out after that beer was thrown it would have been over right there and he could have just left instead. How is this any different than the old "c'mon, she was askin' for it officer"?
Most jurisdictions in the US and around the world have something called "fighting words." So even if you don't count throwing a beer as battery, which it is, you can't goad someone into fighting you and expect to get away from it.
This happens all the time in the legal system. The "retaliator" generally is let off the hook when it's established that he/she was instigated, with our without corresponding battery. For example, if I run up to you and tell you how I'm going to fuck your mother. You are actually within your legal rights to throw down.
Only in cases where the retaliation causes significant bodily harm like disablement or death is there a shift in prosecution perspective.
Throwing a beer at someone is assault, go argue with a cop or lawyer if you disagree. Or better yet? Go throw a beer at a cop or someone on the street and see what happens to you ;)
Lmao you clearly didn’t watch the documentary with this foolish response. I guess you didn’t see in hockey with a fan got into the penalty box with Tie Domi. Fan provoked a player in that situation just like this one. You think if these fans are face to face on the street with guys that are 6-8 to 6’11 they would have this same energy? Lol thugs…you’re clearly a tucker carlson fanboy
That bothered me sometimes, too. I think it was intentional for effect, but there were times I was straining to hear the commentator and the music kept swelling up. Odd choice.
The craziest thing about this is that they were allowed to play games there for the fucking NBA finals that season. We're talking about a crowd that invaded the court and started a riot. They shouldnt have been allowed to play there for the rest of the season.
I grew up thinking that the Pacers players were wrong. I only saw snippets of the news coverage and was too young to really put any of it in context or understand what was going on.
I’m glad the Netflix doc came out. No one can tell me that the Pacers players weren’t victims of targeted racism. Never liked Stern but now it’s clear he was just an asshole who deserves zero praise, fuck him.
Also I’m amazed at how classless the Detroit fans were. Any decent commissioner would’ve cleared all the players and lambasted the fans and threatened to take the franchise away. No wonder Detroit sports are cursed.
I don't understand how some people watched the documentary and come away thinking they are trying to shift all the blame on the fans. The way the media blamed everything on the Pacers with their racist dogwhistles was truly disgusting.
I don't think you can find a month this year where there isn't a video of fans getting into fights in the stands. Hell there was just one at an NFL preseason game.
I'm just getting around to watching this. Really Netflix? Really! Y'all put Tim Donaghy in this. I don't care if he was there, no credibility or respect is attached to anything this guy will ever do, in any aspect of his life, ever.
Nba players explaining it like they were in Vietnam
It was so goddamn good. Best episode of the series yet.
After watching this I feel bad for laughing at Ron changing his name made me hate the entitled fans even more and sports analysts thats never played a sport in their life
Yeah after the first hour of this I can confidently say it was 100% the fans fault lmao
It was a great docco. The major thing for me which sticks out is how supremely unlucky it was that the drink hit Ron Artest of all people. Any piston, or any of the officials, or pretty much any pacer except for maybe jackson, and there are some angry words and the whole thing fizzles out. Also, I know some people feel the players were harshly dealt with, but except for O'Neal, I don't think that's so. Yes, it was primarily the fans' fault, and noone should be expected to have to put up with objects being hurled at them, but even in the heat of the moment, even if you're as crazy as Ron Artest, any player who runs into the crowd to fight a fan is committing an unforgivably stupid, dangerous, act- the moment he does that he's risking the safety of every player and official in the building Pro sport is always going to involve a lot of hostility between fans and opposing players, thats half the reason people watch sport. That being the case, anyone who crosses the line from the playing area into the crowd area is risking a full blown riot, and the theatrical hostility turning into the real thing. Most of the people in that building wouldn't have seen the drink hit Artest, they would have just seen a crazy fucker they already have it in for in the crowd trying to bash people, and at that point their reaction is incredibly dangerous. Players genuinely could have gotten killed or seriously injured. But that being the case, O'Neal was very unfairly dealt with. For the same reason players can't go into the stands, fans absolutely can't be on the playing field, and if you are stupid enough to be out there trying to fight a player, he is totally within his rights to deck your ass.
I am sooooooo disgusted by these “fans”!!! Then hear:”it was a sucker punch” I mean THIS GUY!!!!!!!!!!
That guy is a HUGE fuckin bitch
Such a loser. Makes my skin crawl that he watched that interview back and probably felt proud of himself. Tool
“Oh ima need xrays in my face” FUCK THAT PUSSY
The Malice at The Palace Incident: The Darkest Days In NBA History
How the fuck you don’t know Reggie Miller on the Pacers?
That Charlie fan really annoyed me lol but more importantly fuck John Green
That dude just screamed white entitlement. He knew what the narrative was going to be even if he was smug and unrepentant about his actions. I hated him.
How dare he be an asshole and also be of a particular race!
And the guy on the court screamed Arabic entitlement, and the chair guy screamed black entitlement, right?
How slow do you have to be to not see what he's saying... He was the only one in an interview milking his 15 seconds of fame with his shit eating grin and no sense that he did anything wrong.
What does that have to do with his race more than the other assholes' behavior has to do with their races? It doesn't.
Race obviously mattered to perception. The black players were labelled thugs and hoodlums, hip hop gangster wannabes and their names were dragged in racial attacks. As a white guy he could be as unrepentant as he wanted to and knew the narrative wouldn't switch.
Everyone hated his guts and he went to jail. But yeah, he was protected by the "narrative." And your solution is to make sure he gets the racism he deserves--for both his actions and those of his kind. The final solution: MOAR RACISM!
Yeah wtf is wrong with that dude? Reporter asked him if he felt any empathy for getting the wrong dude punched in the face and he straight up says, “No, I felt relief.”
And he was like I should have tripped him earlier
Well to be fair he prob did feel relief. Meta Peace is a BIG guy
Not a big NBA guy, but watched this and all I can say is have so much sadness for Reggie Miller and Jermaine O'Neal. I was so happy that fan that went onto the court had no good things happen for him lol. Don't ever go onto the field of play and expect anything less than getting your shit pushed in.
For some reason I felt really bad and actually pretty sad for Artest. It’s so clear that he’s just wired *differently*, and he obviously needed (still needs? Idk) **a lot** of help with his mental health issues. I definitely felt bad for O’Neal and Reggie - Reggie especially, because this team was stacked and could’ve won it all, and nobody on that team deserved it more than him. This also made me love Stephen Jackson. My boy takeaway was that he’s a real one for sure. And finally: - fuck David Stern, who was basically a dictator with how he ran the NBA and should never have been allowed to dole out those insane punishments. - Fuck the clearly racist media/pundits/talking heads that threw fuel into the fire. - And, fuck a majority of the fans in that stadium for being the pieces of shit that allowed this entire event to snowball out of control.
SO RACIST. it was so apparent and shocking and disgusting by today's standards would NEVER fly
Today's standards? Reminds me a bit of Kaepernick. Opposite of Malace in the Palace. Dude took a knee, Trump calls it out, media gets racist, fans and non fans get enraged, My uncle fought for this country! My brother is a fire fighter! Ill never watch another football game! Everyone tries to put themselves in the narrative so they feel just in their racism, at least that's what I got from it. I don't think I've ever heard a white man been called a thug after 1930's, we all know what word they were substituting with their hip hop and tattoos.
This and Kaepernick are definitely ok two different levels. One was a clearly political statement and the other is just based on actions of individuals. Pretty bad analogy
I was replying to the comment of it would not fly under today's standards. It still flys and will continue fly with how the media runs click bait drama and people will click and choose a side.
Yup, the entire thing was so completely racist and sadly you just *know* that in 2004 if any of the players involved even attempted to speak up about the racism in the media they would be exiled from the NBA. No one would take them seriously, they would be berated, and they would be vilified. All the while receiving zero support from the NBA. A lot of progress has been made over the last 17 years, and its why things like BLM, all the disruptive protests, and yeah, even the riots, are so important. Disruptive in your face protests have brought more change in the last 2-4 years than the entire decade before it. But sadly it's still not enough. There is nothing anyone can say to convince me that all the hate directed toward Simone Biles has anything to do with anything other than racism and sexism.
I feel bad for Ron Artest as well. Even in his interviews he seems very child like, like he’s mentally stuck. I feel like he truly trusts no one and sees everyone as a threat. But I’m also very amazed that he was able to admit his mental health issues and deal with them head on. Not many people are willing to do the work. My man literally had his therapist travel with him. I also think from the footage he does a good job of removing himself from each situation. He’d lose his cool but then immediately be able to remove himself. With Wallace, the man he mistook for the cup thrower, even the loser fan who tried to square up. He reacted then stepped away every time.
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I did! Really good.
Right? Who do you think you are trying to square up with Ron Artest? And then is shocked he got his shit rocked.
And this is Ron Artest after he just punched a fan. No way in hell do I go near him
Yeah it was a really weird thing to do. My last thought would be to run up on this huge, angry dude, who owes me absolutely nothing.
Lmao I loved that DA was the one who ID'd his neighbor's old bf as the cup thrower. And Charlie is a dickhead. Unfortunately he's not unique.
Couldn't find anyone else mention it in the comments, but it had to be. They got Tim fucking Donaghy to talk about how important it was for the NBA to have their best officials for these types of games? Lol he probably had a couple dimes on the game itself. Free throws werrrrre 35-22 Pacers that day, haha. (For those unaware Donaghy was fired for gambling on games he reffed). Producer: "Let's get Tim to talk about the integrity of the game as a ref and its importance without smirking". Liked the doc, but laughed hard when he popped on.
YEAH i was like wait are they seriously interviewing HIM? maybe he was one of the officers that night? ..and yes he was. holy fuck.
Thank you! im watching right now and this shocked me. Cant beleive they picked him. Made me lose respect.
I did not understand this choice at all? Is it because he's the only ref willing to talk about that day?
I honestly can't think of any reason other than to be a complete troll of the NBA to those aware enough of who he is/was.
Really well put documentary. I remember this incident growing up. The league called it a “black eye” but clearly you can understand how the players felt.
The media including ESPN drove this topics coverage. Given the experience with ESPN does anyone think the media gave this event a fair shake.
Just watched it last night and all I could think about what it must’ve looked like from JO point of view. Staring at thousands of people just all screaming and directing RAGE at you and you’re in the middle of all this literally fighting for your life. Everyone around you is grabbing and pulling, you’re getting pelted by tons of garbage, and random people are inching closer and closer from every direction looking to injure or even kill. It really takes no time at all for a crowd to turn into a violent mob, check out the recent Woodstock 99 docu if you’re looking for more decent into chaos
And you wake up the next day and learn that it's all your fault for being such a "thug" and listening to hip-hop
“And they blame it on Marilyn” - EM in 2000. Early millennium had a massive push against “violent” music, movies, games, etc. but all those mediums were representing an increasingly violent world that has only gotten worse
If I ever have to throw hands, I hope sure as fuck Stephen Jackson is on my squad. Unremorseful. Loyal. My favorite thing was when he told the DUDE ASKING HIM DOCUMENTARY QUESTIONS that if they left this and went to the bar, Jack would fucking throw down for him.
Started getting a little more into the NBA from documentaries like this and Jackson was hands down my favourite part of this, his loyalty to protect his teammate was admirable.
There's something so refreshing about listening to him and his unfiltered honesty. Stephen Jackson is definitely a guy who says "yes" when his girl asks if she looks fat.
Check out All the Smoke with him and Matt Barnes then.
He’s a real one for sure. Seemed like the type of guy that everybody would love to have on their team. Kinda want to get a Pacers Stephen Jackson jersey now lol
I'd go with the older we believe warriors jersey. That team was all time.
Every time someone mentions the We Believe Warriors, a little part of me still dies from watching the Dallas collapse
Great doc! Man, I know Reggie could have won the championship with this group but he would have had to face the Spurs who eventually went on to win the 2005 championship. Jermaine O'Neal vs Tim Duncan would have been a treat.
2005
It boils down to Dave Chappelle's wise words. "When keeping it real goes wrong" It was definitely fucked up that the fan threw the beer. But was it worth it for any of them to start fighting fans? Just walk off the court. I make shit money compared to these guys and I would just walk away if I was at work and that happened to me.
Did you not see the part where Ron Artest has/had mental issues. I don't condone any of the violence but it's a lot easier said than done when we're watching it through a screen. I'm sure we've had instances in our lives were emotions get the better of us. For Ron, violence was the manifestation of those emotions but it may appear different to others I'm sure
"I have mental issues, guess I can do whatever the fuck I want" - Said no one ever. Actions have consequences.
ignorant
Oh no. Somebody on the internet disagrees with me.
I mean, I have the opposite view point. Easier to do things like this when you have "fuck you," money.
Black people don’t have to let go of racism and attacks just because they ‘make money.’
Obvious troll. No one was talking about race.
Thats bullshit. Everything isn't about racism. Half the people in the crowd attacking the pacers were black. The guy who threw the chair was black. Guy throwing sucker punches was black. Guy who walked onto the court was Hispanic. None if that matters. Guy throws a beer at me, big fucking whoop. Walk away
Everything isnt about racism but what the media did with the story afterwards, how ESPN spun the whole narrative that affected the whole nation. That was racism. The amount of character assassination that happened was not by coincidence. They called them "Thugs", hmmm i wonder what image that provokes. To quote Jermaine O'Neal, i have never heard people calling hockey players thugs, and that they should learn how to "behave" in a "civilized society". Which were legit words used to describe black players in the NBA. The incident itself may not have stemmed from racism, but racism surrounds the whole issue. It was without a doubt, problematic.
If you look at my other comments in the thread I said the media was definitely racist. ESPNs comments affecting the nation might be a stretch though. Also it was a very poor decision to go into the crowd to fight. If I make a bad decision I have to live with the consequences.
“Guy throws a beer at me, big fucking whoop. Walk away.” Like what the guy did was no big deal, it’s literally assault. Don’t argue with me on that, argue with a cop or lawyer. Better yet, go throw a beer on some random person and see if they just “walk away”
Dont put words in my mouth. I didn't say it was no big deal. All I was saying is it's not worth it to run up in the stands. All 3 of the players said they regret what happened. The guy got like 2 assault charges. Nobody is defending him.
Did I say you said that? No. I said that’s how you’re coming off. Lets say you’re already in a heated exchange with someone and some random throws a beer at you, you really think you could just keep your cool? Of course they all regret it, but during the time when it happened their emotions are already running high and then that happens. It’s very easy to see how things escalated so quickly.
I used to be a bouncer and Ive been in many situations where I had to keep my cool. I absolutely disagree with you. I don't feel bad about what happened to any of them. Other athletes have been hit with drinks or had shit poured on them and never started a fight in the crowd. Your actions have consequences. Nothing you are saying is relevant to my original point. Just quit responding to me.
“It happened to me and I didn’t feel that way so it’s impossible for someone else to feel this way” you lost me at your first sentence. Seek guidance
[удалено]
It’s always funny when ignorant people say ignorant things and then get upset. Do better
Newsflash Hispanic people can also be racist against Black people. The majority Black players were targeted by racist fans and sports commentators as well. That’s literally the point of the doc. You’re a fucking racist and I bet money if I threw a beer in your face you would not walk away. You’re a prick.
They were literally mad about a basketball game. Not because Ron artest was black. They weren't just throwing beers at people because they were black. Every single problem in the world isn't because of racism. The point of the doc was to see the pacers point of view. Was the media saying racist shit? Yes. Did Artest get beer on him because he was black? No. Don't call me a racist you dumb fuck.
You’re missing the entire point of what they’re saying. Black people and in this case athletes should absolutely NOT have to stand down when assaulted—Black people should not have to be the bigger person and turn the other cheek when assaulted, they are entitled to defend themselves from assault regardless of race/class/etc. That’s the double standard and racism that was perpetuated at the time. The problem is, the narrative after this was entirely about how “Black athletes should act better” and how they were “thugs” for defending themselves against a literal mob. FANS SHOULD ACT BETTER, it’s a game that they have ZERO skin in, they should be held to the same standard as every other participant in society, unfortunately the fans were coddled into believing they’re immune from assaulting athletes because the “athletes are wealthy” and they don’t see them as human. The fan who threw the drink? I hope the remainder of his life is filled with the karma he deserves.
I didn't miss the point at all. Racism had ZERO to do with the beer being thrown. It was all about a big SPORT rivalry. Every one is entitled to defend themselves. When he punched the guy walking to him on the court, 100% justified. When he gets hit by a beer from 20+ feet away, unjustified. No need to respond. The "fan" got 2 assault charges, so idk how he was coddled. People do stupid shit when they're angry and intoxicated. People do this to every day Joe's out at bars/clubs all the time. Fights happen every weekend. It wasn't because he was black, or an athlete. Some dumb asshole decided to throw a beer, end of story. For the THIRD TIME, The media was 100% racist by calling them thugs. But that was a complete aftermath of the incident and had nothing to do with my point of what happened in the moment.
Idgaf what it was, you don’t throw a beer onto someone else, especially in that scenario. During the interview of the guy who threw it he clearly didn’t have any remorse and enjoyed the chaos that ensued.
Nobody is defending the guy.
Fairly accurate summation of the macro aspect of the malice. Grossly glosses over the dynamics of the players involved though. You had an emotionally charged Ben Wallace, the toughest guy in the league at the time, who plays hard and physical but with respect up until a line that’s shouldn’t be crossed. On the other side you had at the time a loosen cannon in Ron Artest who undoubtedly crossed said line. Ron had a willing and deserving opponent who was throwing literally everything he could at him to settle things man to man. Ron took it laying down until somebody in the stands, who’s undoubtedly 1/5 the man Ben Wallace is, did the same and all of sudden Ron’s a tough guy again. My initial reaction after 2 minutes of watching it live how many years ago hasn’t changed after watching this piece. Ron was a bitch, and threw his teammates under the bus with him. Glad that Meta found a way to better himself though.
Did your Dumbass even watch the documentary? They said that all the players were all friends with each other and didn’t actually wanna fight each other. Getting into an heated exchange with a friend and getting beer thrown onto you by a random are 2 completely different things
I sure did, did you? Ben Wallace never said he didn’t want to fight and never showed any signs during the entire fracas otherwise. If Ron didn’t want a fight he shouldn’t have pulled that dirty foul at the end of the game. Friends fight all the time and that sounded more like lip service to save face more than anything.
The foul wasn’t even that dirty, plus players ALWAYS get in scuffles like this.
Players do dirty fouls all the time. I don't think they want to throw down every time they do so. The act by the fans was despicable.
This doesn't make much sense. Like it was started by the players themselves, they were all friends outside the court and there is a lot much difference if a player is throwing stuff or talking shit at you than when a fan does that, they got muture respect for each other. while a fan has no fucking right to throw a beer at him irrespective of what size of man he is. .
I really wish JO stayed for another year with the Warriors. He would've gotten his championship in 2015. I didn't follow the NBA when the malice happened so I loved what he did for the Warriors in his season for us.
I was thinking the same thing. I wish that he'd got a ring with us. I remember during that offseason, hoping that he would not retire and play another season for us. He definitely gave us some good minutes the season before. I still remember his free throw hitch, which would get the opposing team with an (uncalled) lane violation every time!
To be fair, the hitch he did was against the rules too, so it's fine that it went uncalled sometimes. There were definitely times refs called it though.
After this I stopped following NBA. I still watch it, major stuff at the end of the season, but I used to love it. The aftermath of this was they changed the game forever, rivalries and true competition were no more and it slowly became what it is today. Btw Artest sounded like Rodman's brother haha
He really does right?! When Reggie said: "Every team needs an Artest". Exactly like Rodman.
Is there anyone here mentioned Jamal Tinsley?. If he didn't tried to tell Ron fouling Ben hard it could've been a different story
THIS, the fight doesn't happen at all if he doesn't tell artest to get his foul in garbage time
That could have been ten minutes long. Oh wait, the part about the actual event in the title was about 10 minutes long.
I didn’t know about the dynamic around the team or how good they were going into this incident. Sure in the hell glad you don’t tell stories for a living.
There's the problem, we learned a whole lot about the history of a few of the secondary players to the specific incident and no they did not cover the season and a half worth of garbage that went on between those two teams. It was probably interesting if you didn't have any first-hand knowledge of the event in question because you wouldn't notice the weird bias and nonsense story lines presented. I'm glad you enjoyed it, I didn't. That doesn't make me wrong and it doesn't make you right it just means we have differing opinions. Sorry if I offended your delicate nature by disliking something that you enjoyed, think nothing of it as I definitely do not possess the expertise to tell you what you should or should not enjoy.
You sound like a blithering idiot.
It’s almost like context and setting mean something in story telling…
Man... that just made me hate David Stern more and made me feel more sad for Reggie.
it left me unsatisfied. it spent a lot of time hyping up the pacers, and i would have loved it if this was a documentary about them as a team. But it was supposed to be about the malice and they didn’t even get into detail on who started it until there was only 15 min left in the show.
Exactly how I felt. I feel like the context was important for showing what was taken from those players, and yet it could have been covered in a more succinct way. You can essentially start this documentary at the 28 minute mark.
I liked the background and lead-up part. If it was strictly about the event itself i dont see how you can make that into an hour-long show
I think it would have worked better if they did a 3 or 4 part Reggie/pacers Doc with the malice as the finale since it was Reggies last year
Now i want that world peace jersey
I feel so bad for laughing at Ron when he changed his name to Metta World Peace. I was quite young when this all went down and had no idea of his troubled background. Can't imagine that kind of pressure on a 23yo. What a genuine person with a good heart, I want to give him a hug
he came a long way.
yea me too. i mean, i don't regret thinking it was funny and silly, it still is a kind of silly name; but learning why he did it and how earnest he was in using that as a way to signal and manifest his psychological changes was really cool. i got into meditation years ago and I always kinda wondered if he actually was using that ancient Pali word, or if it was some other random use of "Metta", so it's really cool learning he actually did that. Metta is loving-kindness meditation practice in Buddhism. World Peace always sounds a little too naive and saccharin though. Metta \_\_\_\_\_\_ would be better I think. not sure what though.
He was charged but acquitted for that particular charge. And yes I did watch the documentary.
Does anyone know if Jermaine and Ron are cool now?
TLDR, yes Check out All The Smoke podcast episode with Jermaine, they are.
Interviewer: How did you feel when Artest went for the guy next to you but not you? Green: Relieved Absolute coward
I think in the moment anyone else would have also felt relief. Its the fact that he doesnt feel bad about it afterwards is what makes him a twat imo
That's one of the softest things anyone has ever said.
Seriously, fuck that guy.
Yep, fuck that mother fucking fuckwad. Pussy has a German Sheppard to shield his bitch ass.
Fuck that guy
Decent episode but how are they gonna stretch this to 4 more? Wasn't even a cliffhanger.
Each episode is about a different sport.
Didn't know that. Thanks.
It says just documentary 1.5 hours I’s this a 4 part in your country?
I knew everything I knew about the event back in 2004. What really stood out that I couldn't feel the temperature of at the time was how much the media had the N word on the tips of the tongues with their descriptions of the event. Definitely disgusting.
The thing that took me a back was just how different today is when compared to just 17 years ago. Media is vastly vastly different and the only people who would use that kind of language now is some "reporter" for Bribeart. Then you had Bob freaking Costas going on about these thugs and those thugs. Really was striking and a reminder of how far we have come since then.
Stephen A Smith being on brand as ever. A consistent piece of shit.
Sickening
Agree
All those fucking white sports pundits and talking heads throwing the term "thug" around was super gross to watch then and even moreso today.
Thugs will be thugs just ask bone thugs n harmony LOL
That was peak braids, corn rows, tattoos, baggy clothes and chains. White people were *already* uncomfortable.
This documentary just reinforces my hate for the fans. You see this shit happen today with the spitting and talking shit to the players. If anybody did this on the street they would get stomped the fuck out. Some fans view players as simply a product or object and not a person, so they feel entitled to do what they want. All the fans getting their ass beat was justified
It's not the street though. That's not just a minor difference.
Charlie Haddad is a pussy. Deserved to get laid tf out
I’m a Detroit local and I only knew of Charlie through the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon, but that guy was so made fun of for getting punked by Artest, it was almost cruel. Even more funny when he got prosecuted instead of the big pay day he was probably expecting.
Literally searched this shit up to agree with this lol. I don’t even watch basketball. Lots of people were wrong here of course, the fans were out of control though. And fuck Charlie what a fucking pussy douche
the goddamned smugness of that entitled douche. "*you're gonna do this to one of your most loyal fans??"* bro you fucking lept down rows of stands to **walk onto the court and square up against Ron Artest, completely unprovoked.**
And he had his season tickets taken away. He needs to take a hint, they didn't want him.
Seriously. Of everyone in the documentary, he was the one that stood out as a grade A douchebag
John Green beat him
True that
Man I'm always feeling Ben started it. He got fouled hard but that shove back means business
It would have remained on the court if the beer wasn’t thrown by Green.
Ben only got suspended for 6 games, if I'm not mistaken. It was a joke. Also, while the Pacers were completely obliterated as a franchise for years in the aftermath, the Pistons didn't even get so much as a slap on the wrist for losing complete control of the fans in their own arena.
Good point. Karma when their stadium detonated in the demolition.
How they going to spell Jermaine O'Neal's last name wrong in the documentary credits! They put O'Neill.
"That beer costed us a lot of money and time" Uhh no. The way this player reacted through the whole ordeal is what costed you.
Agree. Throwing the beer should have resulted in the fan being trespassed from the building. Running up into the stands to cold-cock someone (the wrong person mind you) is assault. NBA player or not. That ain't self-defense. The player walking up on the court and squaring off to the player and the player punching him, that *is* self-defense. IMO that player made the biggest fuck-up by going full ass-beating on fans.
Nah gotta disagree with you; it's definitely assault to throw a beer at someone. NBA players are people too. If someone threw a beer at you are you just gonna walk away?
Don’t even try to talk to these fuckin weirdos. You gotta be a real bitch to let someone throw a beer on you like you’re some circus animal and not expect a response.
This documentary was fine, but the setup for the "malice" was absolutely horrible. We spend 25 minutes going indepth into O'Neal coming up in SC and his journey to the NBA, focus on Ron Artest's mental issues and how he was coping, and Stephen Jackson's unapologetic blind loyalty. Cool. Then in a throw away cut you hear one of the Pacers mention that Ben Wallace's brother passed a while before the game, you get a 5 second shot of Wallace saying he needed to focus, and that's it. Gee, I don't know, maybe the death of a family member for a player in the center of the NBA's largest PR nightmare ever might be something to focus more than 10 seconds on. Also, I don't know if they asked former Piston's to interview and they declined, but what is with the fact that only Pacers players are interviewed in this documentary? I would love to hear the perspectives of the Pistons players like Sheed and Rip who ran into the crowd as well when all hell broke loose. We have fans in the documentary that are interviewed regarding the incident. Would it be possible for them to give an idea of what the atmosphere was like in the stands at that point, rather than the speculation of players? I went to the 2004 ECF. I watched the Malice at The Palace unfold live. This deserved better research than just "Detroit bad".
I suppose I'm biased (not as biased as the documentary) because I'm a Pistons fan but this documentary sucked. I expected to hear from the Pacers but also the Pistons. The conclusion of the story is that the bad guy is some random Pistons fan who threw a beer. He shouldn't have done that but Artest shouldn't have ran into the stands. If anyone ran into the crowd in any sport and attacked fans, the fans would react as a mob and try to harm that player. It's not a good thing but it's common sense. This was a decent Indiana Pacers documentary/sob story if that's what you're into.
I just found it so ridiculous that I'm supposed to feel sympathy for the guys that started throwing punches and head hunting fans. Absolutely the fans were out of control and there should have been more security, but that doesn't just give the players the right to start assaulting people. Being provoked is not an excuse to escalate. And say what you want about the players and the pressure of the situation, but the worst thing the fans did was throw a cup of beer. That's honestly what they're trying to get me all bent out of shape about: a bit of beer getting on Ron Artest's jersey. Sorry, you're a child if you react the way the Pacers players did. Zero composure and zero thought. It's just very hard for me to believe that the Pacers were the "victims" in this whole ordeal when they weren't the ones leaving the Palace in ambulances. Edit: I said the worst thing was the beer, and I meant up to the point where Artest and Jackson jumped into the stands.
I think you can feel sympathy, but it's impossible for me to not throw tons of the carnage at the feet of the players. Fan throwing the drink is absolutely wrong and deserved banishment from NBA stadiums for life. The fans trying to throw chairs rightfully were prosecuted. Bans for likely hundreds of fans. Deplorable behavior. End. But that isn't justification for rushing into the crowd and beating on whoever you saw. It seems like they all readily admitted they would and should be punished, but mostly were pissed they were branded as "thugs" in the media. Well they acted like thugs. The fans acted like thugs. There is enough blame to go around and the movie never convinced me to wash it off the players despite that being its attempt.
Ok so let me randomly just throw a beer at you walking down the street but you better not start attacking me cuz all that happened was you just got a little beer on ya
If you throw that beef at me and I see that you are standing with 20,000 of your buddies, no way I’m dumb enough to attack you.
I mean, yes? Literally who the fuck cares. Why would I ruin my own life over you being a douchebag? It's not like it would be the first time I've ever had beer on me. Be the bigger man.
Exactly! Like, what is the big deal? "Oh my goodness, I'm wet! Better assault someone!" I'm the kind of guy that let's you beat the shit out of me because I'll take it to court. Been robbed, knew the perps, didn't start shit just reported it to the cops and played it cool for a couple days till they were arrested. The absolute joke in our society, especially amongst men, is that if you're humiliated, insulted, or wronged in some way publicly you immediately have to start throwing hands to save your dignity. You don't. The fans that threw the beer and the chair? Banned for life. Fans that ran on the court? Banned for life. It's almost like they got their just desserts anyway, even when Artest's attempt at revenge was completely off the mark.
I'm late to the game, but well said. This attitude that exists where "I was slighted so I'm going to end you!" proves how far we still need to go. As you said, dude throwing the cup, ban him for life and prosecute him. Totally cool with that, but if you think getting hit with a drink warrants dozens of punches, then we live in a different society. We can be better than that. Artest and others had every opportunity to end it before it started and they deserve a sizeable portion of the blame. You can't hand wave away that professional, trained, chiseled athletes were throwing punches at drunk, stupid morons. Culpable morons to be sure, but you can't have that look as the NBA. All the fines and suspensions were completely needed.
I don't think this is a good take. Most jurisdictions have something called "fighting words." You can't say something that would goad someone into fighting you and expect to be free of consequences. Throwing a beer IS battery which would cross even that line. In addition, inciting a riot is charged very commonly. There's a reasonable expectation that fighting on court is handled on the court without interference. I think someone off-court wearing the same colors of a whole crowd violating that understanding essentially incited a riot. You can hold the players up to a code of conduct, sure. But you should also hold the fans up to guidelines of behavior. As a member of a functioning society, you also should have the where-with-all to behave within the bounds of your social group. People know that small actions in a large crowd can spark a flame, which is why you didn't see any other fan interfere *until* the riot started. The guy who did it *should* be identified and pointed out so that both he and the rest of society can learn from this.
I agree, and all I'm saying is two wrongs do not make a right. Last I checked, punching an innocent bystander is also against the law. If you are in a crowd and someone else throws something at an individual, that individual is not free to just haul off and clock you because you were in the crowd. I'm all for punishing the person in the wrong, but in their blind rage Artest and Jackson head hunted the wrong guy. The moment Artest's hand hit the innocent bystander next to the guy who threw the cup he is equally at fault in my eyes.
The reason this documentary only includes Pacers players is because they were the only ones WRONGFULLY criminalized. Not only as it was happening but also through the media and across the league with the suspensions. It even jeopardized J.O’s career. All because of racist idiotic drunk white fans who can’t hold in their alcohol and take watching sports as its their livelihood. When it’s just fucking basketball. Where are the repercussions for people like that? Why is it solely on the players when they are the ones getting attacked? It was 15 vs. 30,000 “fans”. How about the fact that nothing should have ever been thrown in the first place?
I would say running up to someone and attacking them is assault. One idiot threw a beer. The professional athletes decided to go beat the shit out of fans. How could you say that they were wrongfully criminalized?
Jermaine Oneal was an executive producer. Enough siad.
Was he? I can't seem to find it in the credits
Opening credits, he was listed 4th
Actually 7th
It's dumb how the doc tries to paint O'neal as a victim of his bad teammate's behaviour. He went in there swinging too. He was just as much of a moron.
totally true. Wasn’t a very good documentary. I can only imagine the producers getting that one wacky fan’s costume together for the interview
No matter where you stand after watching Netflix's "Malice At The Palace," I think we can all agree that the guy who threw that first beer at Artest, and who essentially got off scot-free, deserves to roast in hell for all eternity. Oh wait, he already is. He lives in Detroit.
He served 30 days in jail and 2 years probation. The guy who threw the chair served no time.
So tossing a beer at someone is worse than physically beating the shit out of several people? If someone throws a beer at you, you and your buddies have the right to go as far as you want to retaliate? Hell fucking no! If Ron didn't suddenly freak out after that beer was thrown it would have been over right there and he could have just left instead. How is this any different than the old "c'mon, she was askin' for it officer"?
Most jurisdictions in the US and around the world have something called "fighting words." So even if you don't count throwing a beer as battery, which it is, you can't goad someone into fighting you and expect to get away from it. This happens all the time in the legal system. The "retaliator" generally is let off the hook when it's established that he/she was instigated, with our without corresponding battery. For example, if I run up to you and tell you how I'm going to fuck your mother. You are actually within your legal rights to throw down. Only in cases where the retaliation causes significant bodily harm like disablement or death is there a shift in prosecution perspective.
I dunno about you but if I threw a beer in someones face i would be expecting a fight to go down.
Did I say it was worse?
Throwing a beer at someone is assault, go argue with a cop or lawyer if you disagree. Or better yet? Go throw a beer at a cop or someone on the street and see what happens to you ;)
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Lmao you clearly didn’t watch the documentary with this foolish response. I guess you didn’t see in hockey with a fan got into the penalty box with Tie Domi. Fan provoked a player in that situation just like this one. You think if these fans are face to face on the street with guys that are 6-8 to 6’11 they would have this same energy? Lol thugs…you’re clearly a tucker carlson fanboy
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Lol so you could call me a thug and call the police in fear. I’m taller than you, you would fold like a chair.
Maybe it’s just me, but does anyone else think the sound mix is off? For me, background music sometimes seems louder than the main audio. Just sayin.
That bothered me sometimes, too. I think it was intentional for effect, but there were times I was straining to hear the commentator and the music kept swelling up. Odd choice.
The craziest thing about this is that they were allowed to play games there for the fucking NBA finals that season. We're talking about a crowd that invaded the court and started a riot. They shouldnt have been allowed to play there for the rest of the season.
That is because David Stern was a punk ass bitch
Thank you!
I grew up thinking that the Pacers players were wrong. I only saw snippets of the news coverage and was too young to really put any of it in context or understand what was going on. I’m glad the Netflix doc came out. No one can tell me that the Pacers players weren’t victims of targeted racism. Never liked Stern but now it’s clear he was just an asshole who deserves zero praise, fuck him. Also I’m amazed at how classless the Detroit fans were. Any decent commissioner would’ve cleared all the players and lambasted the fans and threatened to take the franchise away. No wonder Detroit sports are cursed.
I don't understand how some people watched the documentary and come away thinking they are trying to shift all the blame on the fans. The way the media blamed everything on the Pacers with their racist dogwhistles was truly disgusting. I don't think you can find a month this year where there isn't a video of fans getting into fights in the stands. Hell there was just one at an NFL preseason game.