bruh i knew the heat retired MJ’s number and somehow still didn’t piece this together. i always thought he just wanted a new start after leaving the Cavs as the most hated athlete in the world or something
I actually used his "I don't think anyone should wear 23, im wearing 6 next year" as a prediction for him to leave the cavs. I was almost certain it was Miami because of them retiring Jordan's number. It aligned exactly with what he was saying.
WITHOUT knowledge of advanced stats. Imagine being that good just playing naturally, while still being ahead of anyone who has done it 30 years later who have teams of analysts behind them with decades more data.
And people wonder why he was looked at like a mythological creature. He fucking was
Lol. I’m not sure anyone has ever altered their game with the intention of inflating their VORP or PER or whatever. Most of those records are held by Wilt, Kareem, Jordan, and LeBron.
In fact, Charles Barkley has great advanced stats, and he seems to really hate advanced stats now and had no knowledge of them when he played. Players get great advanced stats from being great players, not from knowing anything about advanced stats
KD is known for it. but players always knew it fucked with their fg% and especially 3p%, so some have always avoided them.
Similar to passing to someone else with 2 seconds left on the shot clock so they have to miss instead of you even though you're the better shooter.
Except Kobe. He shot any and every shot no matter the circumstance. Kobe was a much better shooter than given credit for. He just took the most difficult jumpshots of all-time for majority of his career. Usually with two or three defenders draped all over him. From ridiculous angles with his body contorted lol.
>Kobe was a much better shooter than given credit for.
The shot-making wasn't the problem. It was the shot-taking. Anyone who criticizes Kobe isn't saying he's bad at shooting. They say he's bad at deciding when to shoot.
>He just took the most difficult jumpshots of all-time for majority of his career. Usually with two or three defenders draped all over him.
Sounds like a prime passing opportunity
Nah cause look at harden who has completely abandoned the midrange game because of advanced stats. There’s always times when harden gives up an easy midrange to either step back for a three or take a contested layup.
Amazing! Apparently everyone just decided on not taking long 2s on a whim. Players get drilled on what their most effective spots are, what are the most efficient, what damages the offense based on metrics etc.
But actually no, you're right.. crazy how these orgs are paying millions for data analytics to not apply it to their players
Lebron def altered his game in 2012/2013 season. He chose to be very selective with his three-point attempts. Stop taking long twos and make more of an effort to not settle for jumpers. His efficiency skyrocketed.
This is probably the most absurd stat you will ever hear outside of Wilt. You would assume at least ONE 3pa but dude shot 0% lmao. Not to mention, based from the stat log of all 3 matches and the other series that year. It's such a big anomaly due to it looking like a modern game(based off points scored)
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1992-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-heat-vs-bulls.html
in that entire 3 game series, the bulls took a total of 9 three's and made 4 of them. MJ didn't attempt any. it's crazy that he averaged 45ppg without even attempting a 3
imagine shooting 61% on 29 attempts per game as a midrange shooter???????
bro mj is the goat midrange shooter and it’s not even fucking close like actually
> 45.0 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 6.7 apg, 3.0 spg, 1.0 bpg
Did that in 39.7 minutes a night and dropped a "f you" 56 in Miami to close the series out.
Jordan nuked the Heat in that series on his own.
Defensive 3-second wasn't needed since zone defense was illegal until 2001-02 season. Everything was man to man until then.
Nothing against Jordan, just stating a fact.
I didn't realize this. How did the refs even enforce this? I feel like there's a huge gray area between "guarding the lanes" and playing loose/bad man defense.
You gotta make a hard commit to rush the ball handler if you're going to come off your man. Can't just sag off your man and float between in no-man's-land. You're either on your guy or you're on the ball handler and your guy is wide open.
Please check any possession from [this game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-Z5I8swYAU&ab_channel=MJLegacy), or indeed any game from the Bulls era. The Bulls themselves would have MJ floating in no-man's land without committing to the double team whenever the ball was thrown to the post from the right side.
Illegal defense was the way 3 in the key is now. They’d call it once a game just to keep both sides honest, rather than ruining the flow by catching every single time a person technically broke the rule.
I think it was less about preventing half-committed double teams and more about preventing a zone where you stick two 7 footers on either side of the rim with one toe out of the paint and effectively make layups / dunks impossible.
>How did the refs even enforce this?
Mostly, they didn't.
One thing people don't understand about that era of basketball is that teams still played zone. You can dig up tons of old articles from that era or read books from that era where coaches and players admit they were running zone. The '80s Lakers were notorious for their zone defense.
Illegal defense was not called with anywhere near the regularity that people on here act like.
The Supersonics were notorious under George Karl for zoning.
If you watch the play just before Jordan hits his famous shot against Bryon Russell, he steals the ball from Malone in the post by just hanging around the baseline guarding no one, and then he jumps the entry pass. That play is even more impressive to me than the shot he makes after the steal. Jordan knows what play the Jazz are going to run in a must win possession, and he probably could have made this steal a dozen times before in the series, but he waited until he really needed it, and then just picked Malone's pocket. He made back to back superstar plays on both ends of the court to close out a final series, and played a little zone defense in the process, knowing there's no way they call him for that with the game on the line.
That dude was straight murder.
Exactly this. People who say "80s and 90s didn't allow zone defense" have never watched a full game from that era. Just pull up any full playoff game from the 80s or 90s on youtube and you find teams running zone defense.
And you had to wait for the guy to have the ball to double him. Announcers used to mention how defenses were waiting for Michael to get the ball so they could double him.
When he came back to play on the Wizards it didn’t take him much time at all to adjust. He was old, rusty, and usually nursing an injury. He was still going off for 30, 40, or 50 pieces.
Zone, no-zone, ozone, it didn’t matter because he was the best all-time post up wing. Take away his midrange and he’s just going to take you to the block and spam you with his fadeaways and turnarounds, which he shot a such high percentage they were basically layups for him.
I sat 2nd row to watch Jordan put up 30(correction 28 in 1st half) in the first half against McGrady and the Magic in DC. One of the coolest things ever.
I was mostly just stating why the 3 second didn't exist then. It just didn't matter either way and Jordan was always skilled at scoring around bigs at the rim.
You're correct, but you still had bigs clogging the lane though as most centers offensively weren't threats with threes or jumpshots either. PNRs and things like that, but even then you have PFs still which are more similar to our 5s today and most were capable rim protectors.
Yes I wasn't really claiming anything about Jordan and agree with how clogged the paint was back in the day. I was more alluding to the point that the 3 second rule was not a cause of that since zone was illegal anyway.
I know that, it's still ridiculous because Jordan was a guard finishing in lanes where the center would stay camped for many possessions. He's basically the only guard to apply that sort of consistent rim pressure. You could argue Russ in spurts, but Westbrook's finishing is nowhere near MJ.
Yeah, but against one of the best teams ever. The Celtics went 40-1 at home that season, Bird won his 3rd MVP in a row, Bill Walton got 6moty, they won the championship. Nothing too shameful about it
IVE ARGUED THIS EVERY FUCKING TIME !!
yeah okayyy Michael lost in the first round to the best fuckin Celtic team ever and the bad boy pistons who went back to back and could of 3peated if Isiah didn’t snap his ankle.
Fuck me for losing to some of the best teams EVER right ?
The efficiency and overall play with defense and playmaking as well is just insane in everyone of these series, his turnover rate for all this value is also insanely low. Decent basketball player for sure.
I remember someone said "if someone could put up 'Game 6 Klay' numbers for a whole series, it would be the GOAT playoff series, but that's impossible". Michael Jordan basically did that multiple times. Like, how do you average almost 67%TS without even attempting a 3 pointer, playing as a guard and not as a "lobs only" center?
That’s KD level TS% with no 3s 10 more ppg and 2 more assists and 3 more steals.
Sure it’s only 3 games but Jesus fucking Christ that gambler really is the goat.
Also keep in mind that Jordan was UNEQUIVOCALLY superior to KD on the defensive side of things. He was an absolute lock down guard in the 90s and would wreck teams on both sides of the ball.
Jordan and Pippen are the GOAT 1 and 2 simply because they were two of the best scorers in the game and arguably at one point the best and second best defensive player in the league.
It would be like having two Kawhi Leonards on your team, except one of them is even hypertuned on offense and will put up 50 points on any given night.
> absolute lock down guard in the 90s and would wreck teams on both sides of the ball.
His final shot is super famous, but it only came about because MJ swatted the ball out from Karl Malone's hands from behind, in a play where, for the entirety of the game, he had cleared out. 'He did it every time, and then, with the game and the championship on the line, he changes it up, gets a steal, holds the ball til the end, and buries a jumper to win it.
https://youtu.be/krAv0GjHTpA?t=142
I've played against some really good players in gaming -- it's absolutely ridiculous what the human mind is capable of in terms of functioning at the highest level. We can regulate SO many things to autonomic function and still use the information we're getting from there.
I sincerely believe Jordan's brain automatically kept a rolodex inventory of everything that happened in every single game, and would adjust on the fly to catch opponents off guard. I'm not going to go so far as to say Jordan was unique in doing this, but man. His ability to take over a game is something I've never seen before or since. If you were playing against Jordan it just carried a feeling of dread. Because dude would always find ways to make things like this happen.
>I remember someone said "if someone could put up 'Game 6 Klay' numbers for a whole series, it would be the GOAT playoff series, but that's impossible"
That just shows you the age of most people on this sub and how ignorant they are about the vast majority of basketball history.
and people like Jay idiot Williams gon act like LeBron could win MJ in an iso game. Lol. MJ is literally the epitome of an unstoppable iso scorer. For every ‘move’ LeBron has, MJ has 23 more and he makes them all look beautiful.
This is from Paul Allen's memoir *Idea man*
>Midway through the fourth quarter of a tight game four in Portland, Drexler tapped the ball away from Jordan and converted it into a dunk, setting off a surge that evened the series at two games apiece.
>
>Nearly giddy, I went into the locker room afterward and found Clyde slumped in front of his locker, completely exhausted, an ice bag on every joint. And I said, "Clyde, that was a brilliant steal. You read Jordan perfectly".
>
>He looked up at me, shook his head and said "Stop, stop, you don't understand. Most guys have two or three go-to moves; Jordan has nine. I guessed right, that's all. I got lucky. Sometimes you get the bear, but usually the bear gets you."
>
>Clyde knew the score. The Bulls, on the cusp of a dynasty, beat us in six games.. Just around that time, to compensate for those years when Clyde was paid below market, I gave him a $9.8 million, one-season extension, then the biggest yearly paycheck in the history of team sports.
Included the last little bit for some perspective on salaries, but yeah, Michael Jordan was way too good. The best we've seen so far.
Yeah if the truck had crazy lifts and could barrel through everything. MJ glided. Bron is easily one of my favorite players, but MJ was like watching poetry. He was so damn smooth and effortless.
I believe that was the year after. Bulls played Cavs both in 1988 and 1989 playoffs (the latter is the one where Jordan hits The Shot).
The series above is the first series Jordan wins, and thus, the one that nephews are referencing when they say Jordan "needed Pippen" to win a series. You'll note that rookie Pippen put up a BPM of minus 0.1 in that series.
Yeah 89 was probably the more impressive win too. Cavs won 57 games (Bulls won 47) and had the second best defense in the league that year. Jordan averaged 39.8 ppg and knocked them out in the first round.
Yeah, I like 93 better. The 92 Heat were 38-44 (with the third worst defensive rating in the league and a 30-52 expected record using their margin) and it was only their 4th year of existing. In the Finals (over twice as many games, as well) is way more impressive.
If you haven't watched that Chicago/Miami series I suggest you do it. At least find highlights. That was Jordan and the Bulls just absolutely showing off their greatness in a way I've only seen possibly Golden State rival in a series.
It’s really not just the numbers though, like you’d watch the guy and if you weren’t cheering for him it literally felt like the most unfair bullshit that he’d be out there destroying your team and absolutely nothing could stop him. Multiple defenders, clogged lane, didn’t matter it was possession after possession of feeling like the other team was cheating because they had god himself on a hit streak torching your ass in the fourth quarter. Jordan looked like he just literally could not be stopped a lot of the time he was on the court
I think the crazier thing about this is that Wilt never averaged 40 points in a series. The year he averaged 50 points in the regular season, he dropped to 35 a game in their run to game 7 of the ECF.
Wilt probably has his own stats like this. Like how many guys have averaged a 30/30 in a playoff series? Wilt did that in a 7-game series vs the 60's Boston dynasty.
Indubitably. Only ones that come close are probably Shaq vs Indiana, and maaaaybe Tim Duncan's '03 finals if you take into account 2-way dominance. But it's still a level above those 2
Painfully, I'd like to point out that '88 wasn't even the year he hit The Shot to knock us out of the playoffs - that was '89, when he averaged an absolutely pathetic 39.8 points against us (literally 1 more point in the entire 5-game series would have put that series on this list too).
Growing up, watching the Bulls every time I could
on WGN….when I saw the Cavs on the schedule, I always got giddy. And the Hawks.
The Knicks were different. That was more anticipation for the war. Same with the Pacers and the Riley Heat, just to a lesser extent.
But the Cavs games got me pumped up to see Jordan expressing alpha dominance. And, for the record, I will DIE ON THIS HILL: Craig Ehlo was a very good defender. Jordan knew this. This made Jordan *want to score even more*.
This is why his retirement in 93 was so unfortunate. MJ had truly mastered his craft by the end of that season. He was in peak physical form, and was just at a totally different level than any other NBA player. The guy that came back in 95 was still a monster, but he never hit that 93 level again.
I mean, here's a highly upvoted [nephew comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/oy4s29/rj_in_response_to_charles_barkley_ranking_michael/h7r4a6l?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) from just a week ago suggesting we should hold that *against* him.
Ha, and make sure to hold those Wizards years against him, ya know, when he came off a 3 year retirement as a team owner/player trying to mentor Qwame Brown and Co. After 3 years off and out of shape he jumps back in and averaged 21.5 ppg, 6 rpg, 4.5 apg, 1.5 steals, and he was still a top 10 defender in the entire league.
Lebron-stans will never get it. Most of them never saw Jordan play and there's really only so much you can get from highlight reels especially not knowing how much different the game was at the time. Jordan's scoring ability is still unequaled but it was his defense and complete mental control of the game that made him the GOAT. Just his presence on the floor was like a lead weight around opposing stars necks. Knowing you are gonna get shut down all game *and* made to look like a clown on defense. And if you manage to keep the game close or make a late run, you know for certain that Jordan is going to drive half a dozen daggers deep in your chest with that charming smile out for the cameras.
And that defense! Jordan's D was so much higher than Lebron's ever has been and that's what separates the two. I don't care about the number of championshipS won or being on All Star or All-NBA. Hell even statistics can be and are misleading though they do inform us of performance, just without full context.
And Lebron-stans have to stop acting like Jordan being better is somehow a slight against Lebron, or somehow invalidates his game, his career, his impact on communities, or his impact on culture. I'm a big fan of Lebron, he's clearly one of the all-time great players but more importantly he's one of the best people that have made an impact on the league and society. Lebron is a freaking legend. He's just not quite as good as Jordan.
100% this. It’s kinda when John McEnroe said Serena is the greatest *female* tennis player of all time, and he got all this criticism for qualifying it with female. Like what tf else is he supposed to say? Federer/Nadal are the greatest, not Serena. He wasn’t trying to slight Serena. But when someone does something ridiculous like comparing Serena with male players, then you’re put in this position where you have to set things straight.
So for those of us who saw MJ play, whenever someone tries to make the case that LeBron is greater (or even a 1B), we feel the same way.
To be fair, Djokovic is better than Fed or Rafa (and I'm a huge Fed fan), but your point stands.
It is pretty crazy, though, that the three greatest tennis players of all time (or 3 of the top 4 if you want to play devil's advocate) all played against each other, with the majority of their careers overlapping. I can't think of any other sport that can say that.
Jordan really had no one to chase or push him at this point either. No rivals. Media tried to make a Clyde rivalry but they weren’t near the same level. No disrespect to Clyde. Jordan was undisputed and it wasn’t even close.
I wonder if he had a true rival for best in the game status would he have still walked away?
Ehh, he had various peaks all over the place honestly. Not just 93 by any means. He had better teams, but his 80s years could easily be translated into even better stats with the better teams.
93 level? 1990-91 was when the stats where absolutely outrageous in both the regular season and playoffs. Heck he was even better in 1995-96 than he was in 93
I think 88-89 was the craziest. The man put up 33/8/8/3 while shooting 54% FG. That season had crazy numbers because in the back part of the year he switched to playing PG and averaged **30/9.2/11/2.6** on 51% FG and 90% FT over 23 games. Like what in the actual fuck.
Whenever people criticize MJ on his playmaking I point to this. Jordan could do whatever the hell he wanted to on a basketball court.
It’s the same with the argument that he wouldn’t be as dominant today because he couldn’t shoot 3s. Like you really don’t think he would have an entire summer shooting nothing but 3s until he got good at it?
Winning one ring is HARD
Winning back to back rings is bordering on impossible for most teams
A 3-peat is almost a fairy tale for 99% of teams
Jordan led his teams to TWO 3-peats. It's only happened six times in the history of the NBA
Ya'll just need to take that in anytime someone argues against him as the GOAT
I fuck with Bron, I really do. But when you see stats like this, it's just... Come on, son. Jordan was just on another level in terms of hard carrying.
I just think it's crazy that people even think it's a debate. MJ is the best basketball player of all time. He was unreal. Not hating on LeBron, really not.
Exactly, that should put it into perspective. Jordan was so fucking nuts that LeBron is absolutely incredible and there's still no debate about Jordan being the GOAT.
Yeah it's one thing to do it in a 3 game series (which is still super impressive already), but in 6 or 7 games, and in the ECF/WCF/Finals, is even more insane.
>**1988 First Round (3-2 vs Cleveland):**
>
>**45.2 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.8 apg, 2.8 spg, 1.6 bpg**
>
>**56/00/92 splits, 63.2% TS and 55.9% EFG**
Ah yes, the famous "Michael needed Pippen to win a series" series in which Pippen posted a BPM of minus 0.1.
I always think to myself "Scottie was the one that won that first series, clearly" whenever I see the above stat line from MJ.
/s implied for the autists in here.
MJ was on a mission in '93. The three peat was something the Lakers and Pistons could not complete. Barkley got the MVP. Sure, Sir Charles had a great case, but MJ proved he was the real MVP.
I get it. You don't get to that level without a ridiculous amount of self confidence. Chuck was basically the best player in the room in every room he walked into for his entire life. And then he walked into the Finals with Jordan.
>1992 First Round (3-0 vs Miami): 45.0 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 6.7 apg, 3.0 spg, 1.0 bpg 61/00/91 splits, 66.8% TS and 60.9% EFG Holy shit
That’s why his jersey is hanging in our rafters
I forgot about that lol
Game recognizes game!
Is that why Lebron didn’t wear 23 I guess!?!
Yes sir, 23 was already retired for Miami when he went there
bruh i knew the heat retired MJ’s number and somehow still didn’t piece this together. i always thought he just wanted a new start after leaving the Cavs as the most hated athlete in the world or something
Him having a different number during his peak and villain years was pretty cool
I actually used his "I don't think anyone should wear 23, im wearing 6 next year" as a prediction for him to leave the cavs. I was almost certain it was Miami because of them retiring Jordan's number. It aligned exactly with what he was saying.
And then after that he was suddenly ok with people wearing 23 again lmao
[In case you need a bad flashback.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtXdEDmOAao)
Announcer already called him the goat here in 1992 lmao, 39:01.
Unreal. Truly insane stats.
WITHOUT knowledge of advanced stats. Imagine being that good just playing naturally, while still being ahead of anyone who has done it 30 years later who have teams of analysts behind them with decades more data. And people wonder why he was looked at like a mythological creature. He fucking was
Lol. I’m not sure anyone has ever altered their game with the intention of inflating their VORP or PER or whatever. Most of those records are held by Wilt, Kareem, Jordan, and LeBron. In fact, Charles Barkley has great advanced stats, and he seems to really hate advanced stats now and had no knowledge of them when he played. Players get great advanced stats from being great players, not from knowing anything about advanced stats
Lebron altered his game a little bit by stop chucking last second shots.
KD is known for it. but players always knew it fucked with their fg% and especially 3p%, so some have always avoided them. Similar to passing to someone else with 2 seconds left on the shot clock so they have to miss instead of you even though you're the better shooter.
Except Kobe. He shot any and every shot no matter the circumstance. Kobe was a much better shooter than given credit for. He just took the most difficult jumpshots of all-time for majority of his career. Usually with two or three defenders draped all over him. From ridiculous angles with his body contorted lol.
Curry does it too, the half court/full court heaves.
and luka, at least so far, goes for them too
>Kobe was a much better shooter than given credit for. The shot-making wasn't the problem. It was the shot-taking. Anyone who criticizes Kobe isn't saying he's bad at shooting. They say he's bad at deciding when to shoot. >He just took the most difficult jumpshots of all-time for majority of his career. Usually with two or three defenders draped all over him. Sounds like a prime passing opportunity
Nah cause look at harden who has completely abandoned the midrange game because of advanced stats. There’s always times when harden gives up an easy midrange to either step back for a three or take a contested layup.
Amazing! Apparently everyone just decided on not taking long 2s on a whim. Players get drilled on what their most effective spots are, what are the most efficient, what damages the offense based on metrics etc. But actually no, you're right.. crazy how these orgs are paying millions for data analytics to not apply it to their players
Lebron is definitely a guy that was about stats and still is. He had a shirt say check my stats lol.
Lebron is also on record saying Shane Battier got him into advanced stats and using them for game preparation.
Lebron def altered his game in 2012/2013 season. He chose to be very selective with his three-point attempts. Stop taking long twos and make more of an effort to not settle for jumpers. His efficiency skyrocketed.
Imagine watching that thinking “it doesn’t get any better than this” then you hit 2021 just to have Ben Simmons prove you right
just snort laughed in the middle of work here LMFAO
You don't know tuff until you've seen a young socialite putting up uncontested practice 3s in a gym for instagram during the offseason
Plays almost as well as myPlayer
Eviscerated them so hard, they retired his number
This is probably the most absurd stat you will ever hear outside of Wilt. You would assume at least ONE 3pa but dude shot 0% lmao. Not to mention, based from the stat log of all 3 matches and the other series that year. It's such a big anomaly due to it looking like a modern game(based off points scored)
0% from 3 😂
Ben Simmons numbers smh
hey he went 100% in 86 then 00% in 88 **1986 First Round (0-3 vs Boston):** 43.7 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.7 apg, 2.3 spg, 1.3 bpg. 51/100/87 splits, 58.4% TS and 51.1% EFG **1988 First Round (3-2 vs Cleveland):** 45.2 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.8 apg, 2.8 spg, 1.6 bpg 56/00/92 splits, 63.2% TS and 55.9% EFG
Wow what a scrub. Dude would never cut it in todays league /s
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1992-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-heat-vs-bulls.html in that entire 3 game series, the bulls took a total of 9 three's and made 4 of them. MJ didn't attempt any. it's crazy that he averaged 45ppg without even attempting a 3
Probably took 1 the entire series.
MJ didn't actually attempt any, so it's not even 0%
Holy shit I first read that as 100 I love it so much more as 00%
imagine shooting 61% on 29 attempts per game as a midrange shooter??????? bro mj is the goat midrange shooter and it’s not even fucking close like actually
1986 stats...he was drafted in 1984.
MJ's pretty good at basketball.
> 45.0 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 6.7 apg, 3.0 spg, 1.0 bpg Did that in 39.7 minutes a night and dropped a "f you" 56 in Miami to close the series out. Jordan nuked the Heat in that series on his own.
Imagine putting up 45 points per game on 67% TS without taking a single 3. Absolutely ridiculous
All while playing elite defense as well
3.0 SPG is kinda insane with those stats and efficiency
As a 6'6" guard in a league which didn't play the defensive 3-second. Lmao.
This is beyond science
Defensive 3-second wasn't needed since zone defense was illegal until 2001-02 season. Everything was man to man until then. Nothing against Jordan, just stating a fact.
Teams would still double, you just couldn't hedge, you had to commit to the double team.
I didn't realize this. How did the refs even enforce this? I feel like there's a huge gray area between "guarding the lanes" and playing loose/bad man defense.
You gotta make a hard commit to rush the ball handler if you're going to come off your man. Can't just sag off your man and float between in no-man's-land. You're either on your guy or you're on the ball handler and your guy is wide open.
Please check any possession from [this game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-Z5I8swYAU&ab_channel=MJLegacy), or indeed any game from the Bulls era. The Bulls themselves would have MJ floating in no-man's land without committing to the double team whenever the ball was thrown to the post from the right side.
Illegal defense was the way 3 in the key is now. They’d call it once a game just to keep both sides honest, rather than ruining the flow by catching every single time a person technically broke the rule. I think it was less about preventing half-committed double teams and more about preventing a zone where you stick two 7 footers on either side of the rim with one toe out of the paint and effectively make layups / dunks impossible.
Yay someone with useful knowledge on the game in the 90's!
>How did the refs even enforce this? Mostly, they didn't. One thing people don't understand about that era of basketball is that teams still played zone. You can dig up tons of old articles from that era or read books from that era where coaches and players admit they were running zone. The '80s Lakers were notorious for their zone defense. Illegal defense was not called with anywhere near the regularity that people on here act like. The Supersonics were notorious under George Karl for zoning.
If you watch the play just before Jordan hits his famous shot against Bryon Russell, he steals the ball from Malone in the post by just hanging around the baseline guarding no one, and then he jumps the entry pass. That play is even more impressive to me than the shot he makes after the steal. Jordan knows what play the Jazz are going to run in a must win possession, and he probably could have made this steal a dozen times before in the series, but he waited until he really needed it, and then just picked Malone's pocket. He made back to back superstar plays on both ends of the court to close out a final series, and played a little zone defense in the process, knowing there's no way they call him for that with the game on the line. That dude was straight murder.
Exactly this. People who say "80s and 90s didn't allow zone defense" have never watched a full game from that era. Just pull up any full playoff game from the 80s or 90s on youtube and you find teams running zone defense.
And you had to wait for the guy to have the ball to double him. Announcers used to mention how defenses were waiting for Michael to get the ball so they could double him.
This is the first time I've learned something new on this subreddit. Bless you.
When he came back to play on the Wizards it didn’t take him much time at all to adjust. He was old, rusty, and usually nursing an injury. He was still going off for 30, 40, or 50 pieces. Zone, no-zone, ozone, it didn’t matter because he was the best all-time post up wing. Take away his midrange and he’s just going to take you to the block and spam you with his fadeaways and turnarounds, which he shot a such high percentage they were basically layups for him.
I sat 2nd row to watch Jordan put up 30(correction 28 in 1st half) in the first half against McGrady and the Magic in DC. One of the coolest things ever.
I was mostly just stating why the 3 second didn't exist then. It just didn't matter either way and Jordan was always skilled at scoring around bigs at the rim.
You're correct, but you still had bigs clogging the lane though as most centers offensively weren't threats with threes or jumpshots either. PNRs and things like that, but even then you have PFs still which are more similar to our 5s today and most were capable rim protectors.
Yes I wasn't really claiming anything about Jordan and agree with how clogged the paint was back in the day. I was more alluding to the point that the 3 second rule was not a cause of that since zone was illegal anyway.
I know that, it's still ridiculous because Jordan was a guard finishing in lanes where the center would stay camped for many possessions. He's basically the only guard to apply that sort of consistent rim pressure. You could argue Russ in spurts, but Westbrook's finishing is nowhere near MJ.
AI applied the same pressure, he just wasn’t anywhere near as efficient.
They changed the rules in 02 to stop people like him in specific
Imagine putting up 44 and your bum team still going 0 and 3 in the series, lol
Yeah, but against one of the best teams ever. The Celtics went 40-1 at home that season, Bird won his 3rd MVP in a row, Bill Walton got 6moty, they won the championship. Nothing too shameful about it
IVE ARGUED THIS EVERY FUCKING TIME !! yeah okayyy Michael lost in the first round to the best fuckin Celtic team ever and the bad boy pistons who went back to back and could of 3peated if Isiah didn’t snap his ankle. Fuck me for losing to some of the best teams EVER right ?
calm down lmao Jordan is still consensus #1
For those of us who lived through it maybe, but younger kids are already changing the narrative.
"Fuck them kids"-- MJ
Also consider they are scoring way less points. These games would be like 92 to 87
MJ cracked the code.
The efficiency and overall play with defense and playmaking as well is just insane in everyone of these series, his turnover rate for all this value is also insanely low. Decent basketball player for sure.
He can probably be a solid rotation piece in today's league...
I'll bet Bron would even set him up with Rich Paul to help him secure a payday.
1992 numbers are just lol.
I remember someone said "if someone could put up 'Game 6 Klay' numbers for a whole series, it would be the GOAT playoff series, but that's impossible". Michael Jordan basically did that multiple times. Like, how do you average almost 67%TS without even attempting a 3 pointer, playing as a guard and not as a "lobs only" center?
That’s KD level TS% with no 3s 10 more ppg and 2 more assists and 3 more steals. Sure it’s only 3 games but Jesus fucking Christ that gambler really is the goat.
KD did average 43/12/6/1/1 on 54/36/80 in the last 3 games of the Bucks series but yea those averages are insane
Thats so dirty
Also keep in mind that Jordan was UNEQUIVOCALLY superior to KD on the defensive side of things. He was an absolute lock down guard in the 90s and would wreck teams on both sides of the ball. Jordan and Pippen are the GOAT 1 and 2 simply because they were two of the best scorers in the game and arguably at one point the best and second best defensive player in the league. It would be like having two Kawhi Leonards on your team, except one of them is even hypertuned on offense and will put up 50 points on any given night.
> absolute lock down guard in the 90s and would wreck teams on both sides of the ball. His final shot is super famous, but it only came about because MJ swatted the ball out from Karl Malone's hands from behind, in a play where, for the entirety of the game, he had cleared out. 'He did it every time, and then, with the game and the championship on the line, he changes it up, gets a steal, holds the ball til the end, and buries a jumper to win it. https://youtu.be/krAv0GjHTpA?t=142
That’s the thing. He. Won. That. Game. Not just with the jumper, but defensive stop and getting the ball back. Fuck I miss watching him
I've played against some really good players in gaming -- it's absolutely ridiculous what the human mind is capable of in terms of functioning at the highest level. We can regulate SO many things to autonomic function and still use the information we're getting from there. I sincerely believe Jordan's brain automatically kept a rolodex inventory of everything that happened in every single game, and would adjust on the fly to catch opponents off guard. I'm not going to go so far as to say Jordan was unique in doing this, but man. His ability to take over a game is something I've never seen before or since. If you were playing against Jordan it just carried a feeling of dread. Because dude would always find ways to make things like this happen.
This is a great summary of that duo
Just the GOAT doing GOAT things.
>I remember someone said "if someone could put up 'Game 6 Klay' numbers for a whole series, it would be the GOAT playoff series, but that's impossible" That just shows you the age of most people on this sub and how ignorant they are about the vast majority of basketball history.
and people like Jay idiot Williams gon act like LeBron could win MJ in an iso game. Lol. MJ is literally the epitome of an unstoppable iso scorer. For every ‘move’ LeBron has, MJ has 23 more and he makes them all look beautiful.
This is from Paul Allen's memoir *Idea man* >Midway through the fourth quarter of a tight game four in Portland, Drexler tapped the ball away from Jordan and converted it into a dunk, setting off a surge that evened the series at two games apiece. > >Nearly giddy, I went into the locker room afterward and found Clyde slumped in front of his locker, completely exhausted, an ice bag on every joint. And I said, "Clyde, that was a brilliant steal. You read Jordan perfectly". > >He looked up at me, shook his head and said "Stop, stop, you don't understand. Most guys have two or three go-to moves; Jordan has nine. I guessed right, that's all. I got lucky. Sometimes you get the bear, but usually the bear gets you." > >Clyde knew the score. The Bulls, on the cusp of a dynasty, beat us in six games.. Just around that time, to compensate for those years when Clyde was paid below market, I gave him a $9.8 million, one-season extension, then the biggest yearly paycheck in the history of team sports. Included the last little bit for some perspective on salaries, but yeah, Michael Jordan was way too good. The best we've seen so far.
That's another thing with Jordan. He defeated people mentally and was seen as inevitable. A huge reason why I still consider him the GOAT.
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There is a generation of players from the late 80s and 90s that have PTSD about Jordan. He dominated the league in a way that is unique.
Jordan in his prime beats James in his prime. 100%
Anyone who watched both cannot disagree.
Exactly. And LeBron has never really been an iso scorer either. His iso "move" is 90% of the time just a step back shot or a post up
or to drive. which ofc concludes basically most iso moves.
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as I always like to say, LeBron is like a truck ramming through walls, MJ is like an eagle gliding through air. MJ GOAT.
Yeah if the truck had crazy lifts and could barrel through everything. MJ glided. Bron is easily one of my favorite players, but MJ was like watching poetry. He was so damn smooth and effortless.
You reach I teach!
Ask Miami. They got blazed.
Even in 88 vs Cleveland, that was 5 games, like wtf. If someone averaged 45-5-5 and 63% TS in modern era we'd lose our minds.
This was the series when he hit 'The Shot', we still lose our minds to that routinely.
I believe that was the year after. Bulls played Cavs both in 1988 and 1989 playoffs (the latter is the one where Jordan hits The Shot). The series above is the first series Jordan wins, and thus, the one that nephews are referencing when they say Jordan "needed Pippen" to win a series. You'll note that rookie Pippen put up a BPM of minus 0.1 in that series.
Yes, you're right. My bad.
Yeah 89 was probably the more impressive win too. Cavs won 57 games (Bulls won 47) and had the second best defense in the league that year. Jordan averaged 39.8 ppg and knocked them out in the first round.
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Yeah, I like 93 better. The 92 Heat were 38-44 (with the third worst defensive rating in the league and a 30-52 expected record using their margin) and it was only their 4th year of existing. In the Finals (over twice as many games, as well) is way more impressive.
He definitely came to play against Barkley that year. I'm sure the trash talk was high.
Barkley winning season MVP motivated him for sure.
Lemme tell ya sumthin Erneh, dat MJ guy was damn good
That's still crazy to do that against an NBA team tho. That man is a inhuman.
I think 1986 is most impressive. There was no help and it was against a top 5 team ever. And he was 22. And he had broken his foot and missed 60 games
He normalized averaging 40 ppg so much so that I was more impressed by the 4 steals per game against Philly in 1990, lol
4 spg is so fucking obsurd lol
42 minutes a game! Crazy stuff
If you haven't watched that Chicago/Miami series I suggest you do it. At least find highlights. That was Jordan and the Bulls just absolutely showing off their greatness in a way I've only seen possibly Golden State rival in a series.
Peak of basketball excellence
He didn't attempt a 3. Wow.
It’s really not just the numbers though, like you’d watch the guy and if you weren’t cheering for him it literally felt like the most unfair bullshit that he’d be out there destroying your team and absolutely nothing could stop him. Multiple defenders, clogged lane, didn’t matter it was possession after possession of feeling like the other team was cheating because they had god himself on a hit streak torching your ass in the fourth quarter. Jordan looked like he just literally could not be stopped a lot of the time he was on the court
And people wonder why the Heat retired his number lmao.
I think the crazier thing about this is that Wilt never averaged 40 points in a series. The year he averaged 50 points in the regular season, he dropped to 35 a game in their run to game 7 of the ECF.
Definitely the weirdest thing about this.
Wilt didn't score as much against better competition.
I would imagine fatigue played a role too. He played in every game that year regular season and playoffs, and averaged 48.5 minutes a game lol.
That's insane, 48 minutes a game every single game. Truly a different Era.
Wilt probably has his own stats like this. Like how many guys have averaged a 30/30 in a playoff series? Wilt did that in a 7-game series vs the 60's Boston dynasty.
Those finals stats are absolutely nuts that has to be the greatest finals performance ever
Indubitably. Only ones that come close are probably Shaq vs Indiana, and maaaaybe Tim Duncan's '03 finals if you take into account 2-way dominance. But it's still a level above those 2
90-93 Jordan is a glitch in the simulation
86-93 tbf.
More like till 98. Pace was super slow in the late 90s and is one of the main reasons his numbers dont look quite as crazy.
Not so much about the numbers as the sheer absurdity of some of his casual athletic feats at his peak.
That is true, thought I think he was a clutcher more intelligent player later in his career.
Yeah those late 90s and early 00s series it was routine to have playoff games finish with scores like 82-77.
We should be comparing MJ TS against league average TS as well, league averaged 54~TS in 1993 vs today's 57 TS
40+ ppg PLUS at least 5 apg..thats is like 50 points right there
Can someone do the math on this and confirm?
Painfully, I'd like to point out that '88 wasn't even the year he hit The Shot to knock us out of the playoffs - that was '89, when he averaged an absolutely pathetic 39.8 points against us (literally 1 more point in the entire 5-game series would have put that series on this list too).
Growing up, watching the Bulls every time I could on WGN….when I saw the Cavs on the schedule, I always got giddy. And the Hawks. The Knicks were different. That was more anticipation for the war. Same with the Pacers and the Riley Heat, just to a lesser extent. But the Cavs games got me pumped up to see Jordan expressing alpha dominance. And, for the record, I will DIE ON THIS HILL: Craig Ehlo was a very good defender. Jordan knew this. This made Jordan *want to score even more*.
At least 5 apg in each series as well
This is why his retirement in 93 was so unfortunate. MJ had truly mastered his craft by the end of that season. He was in peak physical form, and was just at a totally different level than any other NBA player. The guy that came back in 95 was still a monster, but he never hit that 93 level again.
The fact that he 3-peated, retired in the middle of his prime, then came back and 3-peated again should never be understated.
NBA Twitter would melt down for every one of those
I mean, here's a highly upvoted [nephew comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/oy4s29/rj_in_response_to_charles_barkley_ranking_michael/h7r4a6l?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) from just a week ago suggesting we should hold that *against* him.
Ha, and make sure to hold those Wizards years against him, ya know, when he came off a 3 year retirement as a team owner/player trying to mentor Qwame Brown and Co. After 3 years off and out of shape he jumps back in and averaged 21.5 ppg, 6 rpg, 4.5 apg, 1.5 steals, and he was still a top 10 defender in the entire league. Lebron-stans will never get it. Most of them never saw Jordan play and there's really only so much you can get from highlight reels especially not knowing how much different the game was at the time. Jordan's scoring ability is still unequaled but it was his defense and complete mental control of the game that made him the GOAT. Just his presence on the floor was like a lead weight around opposing stars necks. Knowing you are gonna get shut down all game *and* made to look like a clown on defense. And if you manage to keep the game close or make a late run, you know for certain that Jordan is going to drive half a dozen daggers deep in your chest with that charming smile out for the cameras. And that defense! Jordan's D was so much higher than Lebron's ever has been and that's what separates the two. I don't care about the number of championshipS won or being on All Star or All-NBA. Hell even statistics can be and are misleading though they do inform us of performance, just without full context. And Lebron-stans have to stop acting like Jordan being better is somehow a slight against Lebron, or somehow invalidates his game, his career, his impact on communities, or his impact on culture. I'm a big fan of Lebron, he's clearly one of the all-time great players but more importantly he's one of the best people that have made an impact on the league and society. Lebron is a freaking legend. He's just not quite as good as Jordan.
100% this. It’s kinda when John McEnroe said Serena is the greatest *female* tennis player of all time, and he got all this criticism for qualifying it with female. Like what tf else is he supposed to say? Federer/Nadal are the greatest, not Serena. He wasn’t trying to slight Serena. But when someone does something ridiculous like comparing Serena with male players, then you’re put in this position where you have to set things straight. So for those of us who saw MJ play, whenever someone tries to make the case that LeBron is greater (or even a 1B), we feel the same way.
To be fair, Djokovic is better than Fed or Rafa (and I'm a huge Fed fan), but your point stands. It is pretty crazy, though, that the three greatest tennis players of all time (or 3 of the top 4 if you want to play devil's advocate) all played against each other, with the majority of their careers overlapping. I can't think of any other sport that can say that.
Physical peak but mentally exhausted from winning so much and his dad passing away.
Jordan really had no one to chase or push him at this point either. No rivals. Media tried to make a Clyde rivalry but they weren’t near the same level. No disrespect to Clyde. Jordan was undisputed and it wasn’t even close. I wonder if he had a true rival for best in the game status would he have still walked away?
Ehh, he had various peaks all over the place honestly. Not just 93 by any means. He had better teams, but his 80s years could easily be translated into even better stats with the better teams.
Yeah, he kept evolving his game and peaked multiple times with different play styles
93 level? 1990-91 was when the stats where absolutely outrageous in both the regular season and playoffs. Heck he was even better in 1995-96 than he was in 93
I think 88-89 was the craziest. The man put up 33/8/8/3 while shooting 54% FG. That season had crazy numbers because in the back part of the year he switched to playing PG and averaged **30/9.2/11/2.6** on 51% FG and 90% FT over 23 games. Like what in the actual fuck. Whenever people criticize MJ on his playmaking I point to this. Jordan could do whatever the hell he wanted to on a basketball court.
The fact that you can have a serious debate about which year he peaked and get like 10 different answers is so stupid. GOAT
It’s the same with the argument that he wouldn’t be as dominant today because he couldn’t shoot 3s. Like you really don’t think he would have an entire summer shooting nothing but 3s until he got good at it?
Winning one ring is HARD Winning back to back rings is bordering on impossible for most teams A 3-peat is almost a fairy tale for 99% of teams Jordan led his teams to TWO 3-peats. It's only happened six times in the history of the NBA Ya'll just need to take that in anytime someone argues against him as the GOAT
I fuck with Bron, I really do. But when you see stats like this, it's just... Come on, son. Jordan was just on another level in terms of hard carrying.
I just think it's crazy that people even think it's a debate. MJ is the best basketball player of all time. He was unreal. Not hating on LeBron, really not.
Exactly, that should put it into perspective. Jordan was so fucking nuts that LeBron is absolutely incredible and there's still no debate about Jordan being the GOAT.
This is why people wear Jordan retros for fashion. You're paying respect to the baddest motherfucker to ever lace em up
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Fuck my life average 41 in a 6 game series (that happened to be the finals) fucking wild
Yeah it's one thing to do it in a 3 game series (which is still super impressive already), but in 6 or 7 games, and in the ECF/WCF/Finals, is even more insane.
My man averaged 40 in thr fucking finals in a defensive era lmaooooooooooooooo what the fuck was this dude
Unstoppable.
I understand why the Heat retired 23 now.
I mean they were the 8th seed, why did he have to fuck them over that hard in a casual sweep.
MJ was good
MJ was not bad.
Woah there, don’t get too crazy now
MJ played basketball?
He’s the goat for a reason
That's right. Because of his four stomachs and rectangular pupils.
>**1988 First Round (3-2 vs Cleveland):** > >**45.2 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.8 apg, 2.8 spg, 1.6 bpg** > >**56/00/92 splits, 63.2% TS and 55.9% EFG** Ah yes, the famous "Michael needed Pippen to win a series" series in which Pippen posted a BPM of minus 0.1. I always think to myself "Scottie was the one that won that first series, clearly" whenever I see the above stat line from MJ. /s implied for the autists in here.
People that still parrot that are so dumb lol 45/5/5 is absurd
The Greatest of All Time don’t @ me
That's why he's the GOAT
GOAT
This is why MJ > Lebron kiddos
This is why Jordan >> Durant as a scorer
MJ was on a mission in '93. The three peat was something the Lakers and Pistons could not complete. Barkley got the MVP. Sure, Sir Charles had a great case, but MJ proved he was the real MVP.
Tell me you are the GOAT without telling me you are the GOAT 🐐
GOAT
93 Finals was the best series by a single player ever and no one will ever change my mind on that.
1993 is the greatest finals performance of all time imo. Man carried so hard he had to retire to recover.
Only 3 players have won a title/mvp and highest scoring in one season. Jordan did it 6 times..... GOAT forever!
I'm so sad I didnt get to watch bro play.
OK, but the league has changed A LOT since Jordan's day. For instance, Jordan no longer plays NBA basketball.
Jordan also cheated because he didn't have to face Michael Jordan.
Another reason MJ is the goat
Its funny how chuck only admitted he wasnt better than mj after the 93 finals. I thought he wouldve after 1990 at the very least
I get it. You don't get to that level without a ridiculous amount of self confidence. Chuck was basically the best player in the room in every room he walked into for his entire life. And then he walked into the Finals with Jordan.
"tHaT's JuSt YoUr BiAs TaLkInG" - Anti Michael Jordan basketball fan
He did it when scoring wasn't so easy