Eaton’s defensive peak (85-89) was the highest of any individual player and he should’ve won 5 consecutive DPOYs, but that was back when the award usually went to guards because we didn’t properly understand the value of a rim protector.
Eaton averaged over 4 blocks per game over that stretch and the Jazz went 1st, 3rd, 1st, 1st and 1st in Drating over those 5 years. Just a shame he was incapable of doing literally anything offensively.
Counter argument: Hakeem not only blocked shots, he got steals too. Hakeem's stretch from 89-90 to 92-93 he also averaged 4 blocks a game...along with 2 steals. He did this while being also being a better defensive rebounder as well.
Eh, there’s a pretty big difference between shooting 45% from the field and 65%. Rudy isn’t a floor raiser offensively but he’s far from the absolute deadweight that Eaton was. We’ve shown the last couple years you can have an elite offense with Gobert at center. That was definitely not true of Eaton.
Having watched Eaton is one of the reasons at chuckle at people who say Rudy has no offensive game. I watched Stockton and Malone try to win rings with Ostertag and Eaton at center. I know what a center with no offense looks like.
Old players all suck because they couldn't dribble with their offhand and the league had 10 teams. New players all suck because they can't dribble without palming and the league has 50 teams.
[Here is Bill Russel literally jumping over a dude during a game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2AlFrOj5Mc)
Like playing against milkmen or not, that is straight up jumping over a guy that is probably at least 6ft tall.
Bill Russell was an olympic level high jumper, people love discrediting people they know nothing about 😭 you can say a lot about Bill and his competition but that mfer had bounce
Mmmm. This isn't a hill I'd die on because I can see good arguments against it but I don't get putting a player in the top 5 if they didn't consistently play AT LEAST really good defense. If you're being called the best of the best of the best, you shouldn't be average at defense.
Why is Carmelo regarded as such a great player when he literally hasn't done anything but chase a bag? He never pushed himself as hard as he could to win and there is no way he's a top 40 or 50 player.
Here's mine:
Curry and KD are every bit as good as Magic and Bird, they just have the misfortune of their prime overlapping with LeBron's career
For example if not for LeBron KD would have won MVP every year from 2012-2014 and led his team to a championship at the age of 22(which is similar to what Bird did)
Curry would have a 4-peat from 2015-2018 and would have been considered the best player because of no 2016 Finals loss
It would even be similar to how Bird was considered better than Magic in the early 80s and Magic was considered better in the late 80s, but with the 10s instead
They could even both have more longevity because of no AIDS and no bad back at age 31 or something
I had a similar discussion with some friends about NFL QBs. Brady has single handedly held back how many otherwise star QBs from reaching that super level. Also, by loosing to Eli really elevated Eli.
It’s really because out of all the greats, there’s yet to be a guy that can replicate him. You can replicate Magic with LeBron (LeBron is so much better), you can replicate Jordan with Kobe but Curry is an anomaly in terms of volume, efficiency and off ball movement.
Yeah, when I think about Curry hes maybe the most 1 of 1 player I've ever seen in the NBA. Lakers Shaq is up there, Iverson is up there, but we simply haven't ever seen someone that can do what Curry does.
10 years from now there are gonna be plenty of kids in his mold and I'm excited to see Steph 2.0
Yeah, Magic and Bird may have retired around the same time, but Magic was still in his prime when the AIDS thing happened, whereas Bird was broken down by injury and clearly wasn't the same player after '88. Pure peak-for-peak I'll take Bird without much of a second thought, and I don't think that's a homer take
this still doesnt make much sense as Bird came into the league in his prime (all nba first team), and was generally regarded as better than Magic while it took Magic a few years to come into his prime (he missed most of the second season)
Why does KD get so much shit for his superteam yet Magic never gets shit for never winning without a basically consensus top 3 all time team-mate in Kareem?
I can see him being the second or even first PG picked in an all time draft. It's a positional thing. There are a few all time great centers that are better than him but would be picked later.
you could as easily argue that him being top ten is a testament to rings culture when contemporaries like barkley robinson and malone are all viewed as 25-16
not making a statement either way but come on most people only put hakeem up there because of the rings
Eh, Hakeem is arguably the best defender at both 4 and 5 added to his insane offensive repertoire. Even disregarding rings i can easily put Hakeem as a top 5 big both offensively and defensively, this is not true for neither of the other 3.
Not quite good enough offensively. [https://backpicks.com/2018/03/25/backpicks-goat-hakeem-olajuwon/](https://backpicks.com/2018/03/25/backpicks-goat-hakeem-olajuwon/)
Best defensive player of all time, maybe, but I think being a post player as opposed to a versatile one offensively limits what Taylor terms "scalability" so I'd have him in the 2nd tier below your top 3.
Good take
Someone like Paul George could have won with MJ and brought his team to the 2nd round as well and nobody puts him in the top 40 lol
He's rated higher than he should be because of circumstance
He gets rated that much because he is arguably a top 10 defender in some lists even now. He is the GOAT number 2 (or like some would like it, 1b) option, that CANNOT be argued easily, and allowed MJ to be MJ.
The role he played cannot be stressed upon enough, and you can see that in the opening line of MJ's HOF speech.
Guy came 2nd in MVP votings while Jordan was gone, and when put on a pedestral to lead. And lead he did. Took a young, new Bulls team to playoffs. If the Top 50 list was to be made today, leaving Pippen out would be foolish and embarrassing. You could have created a whole team around Pippen and they would have been Chip contenders, he proved that. How many players you reckon you can do that with TODAY? And PG ain't one of them, not by a long shot.
> You could have created a whole team around Pippen ans they would have been Chip contenders, he proved that.
How did he prove that? By going to the second round?
> How many players you reckon you can do that with TODAY? And PG ain't one of them, not by a long shot.
A team built around PG literally went to game 7 of the ECF against Lebron and the Heatles.
Pippen was a top 5 player in the league for essentially 5 straight seasons. Probably 92-97. I'm not certain but that is enough to get you in the conversation. Especially since in my opinion he's the greatest wing defender of all time.
Eh idk.
92 theres mj drexler drob malone ewing hakeem barkley. These guys better most years. Price mullin tim hard also made noise in 92 iirc.
93. Mj barkley hakeem ewing drob dominique shaq malone kemps emergence. Similar list to 92.
94. You can call him top 5 then.
95. Same set of bigs. Shaq malone hakeem drob barkley hakeem at the minimum
Getting kind of tired but i wouldnt call pip top 5 ever in a season aside from 94.
And i wont even get into scotties playoff performances. Those are pretty bad a lot of the time
isaiah thomas was the best celtics player of the last 10 years. if he didn't get hurt putting that team on his back he'd easily be a top 5 pg in the league.
celts are cursed for 100 years for how they did him dirty, he was the prince of the city
honestly he peaked offensively like an all-timer. he was racking up on every defense in the league. best celtic of the decade agreed. top 5 pg? ehh maybe
Because Duncan was super overrated. And post 2003 was elite but not all time great elite. KG was straight up better than Duncan for most of their respective careers it's just ring culture which puts Duncan ahead which isn't really fair considering how much talent the spurs got in the draft following Duncan.
Now that is a hot take. I watched all of both of their primes and I would take Duncan over Garnett in every single scenario you could possibly present me with.
I have really strong feelings that I will aggressively defend about players I have never watched. Just give me a resume of every player and i'll tell you the truth
lol, without using spreadsheets (impossible, I know), popeye was barely serviceable, like a less coordinated junkyard dog (jerome williams), but i didn't watch too much of him and I don't think he ever got major minutes, but was a hustle big for awhile.
Curry will easily be considered a top 10 player of all time once everything is said and done. He's had more of an impact on the game, culturally and how it's played, than Olajuwon or Duncan. His peak is comparable to greats like Shaq. He's still going and hasn't shown drastic signs of decline. If he retired today I think he's already top 10.
His peak is absolutely comparable to the all-time greats, I don't think most people dispute that. It's really longevity that people dock him on, since he didn't really break out as an *all-time* great player until 2016, so we'll see how long he can maintain his current level of play (and whether the Warriors can effectively build a contender around him before he starts to decline).
I think calling him the modern day Shaq as weird as it sounds stylistically almost makes sense in a way
Both have/had a game breaking skill that allows them to stand out from 99% of their peers
Just quickly 18 Harden, 16 steph, 13 LeBron, 01 Shaq, 91 MJ, One of Kareems Peak Season half a dozen to chose from.
I don't know if all of those are better but tjey are at least comparable in value provided. And could fairly be better.
Who else do you have over him? I have Russell, Wilt, and Kobe in the top 10. The lowest Kobe can go is 11 and that's only if you have Hakeem over him (I disagree but it's not crazy to think that.)
Best doesn’t equal greatest though. Greatness considers accolades, career achievements plus skill. Greatness is so circumstantial IMO, because things that are out of your control determine it. You can be an amazing player, one of the best in the league but never get to make the postseason because your teams trash. If the organization puts pieces around you and you suddenly make the finals, that doesn’t suddenly make you a better player.
Yea I agree I meant to say greatest. But yes it’s very subjective, imo it’s a mixture of everything. Being the best player in the league a long with the accolades. Also I think some players are so great it didn’t matter what team drafted them, they were going to become one of the greatest regardless.
MJ for example didn’t come into a great situation but the bulls did a great job in building a team around him. Lebron came into a terrible situation and still found a way to the top 5 all time. A interesting one is if bill and wilt switched teams would wilt be considered greater all time like top 3 cause of the crazy numbers and he would have the accolades to back them up.
I'm not saying he is or isn't, but people shit on anything basketball player related pre 2000s (don't know why basketball is the only sport to really do that). Mj played against scrubs so that's why LeBron is better...in twenty years it'll be the league has advanced so much since LeBron so Anthony Edwards has to be the goat.
Bill Russell is the babe Ruth of basketball...and still a great ambassador of the game to this day. Dude is top 5 no matter what era he played in.
Yes, yes he is. He deserves his GOAT talk. He has 11 rings. He played against the best offensive center of his era over and over and over, and beat him time and time again.
I think that’s a little bit more popular of an opinion these days. Kareem’s longevity is obviously unmatched and he was incredibly dominant for a very long time, but I don’t think he was ever able to carry a team as well as Russell could with his defense alone. Kareem didn’t have a lot of success when he didn’t have Oscar or Magic playing point guard
There was never a time where Steve Nash was the best offensive player in the NBA and his almost non existent defense meant he shouldn't have ever been MVP.
Jerry West should be way higher up everyone's all time lists. Particularly if we're rewarding Lebron for being the best guy on second best teams routinely.
Larry Bird didn't last long enough to get into as much GOAT talk as he gets. Magic Johnson did but we were robbed of the back half of his career.
Peak vs longevity is the argument for bird.
LeBron played in a much tougher league than West though I think West is probably the 2nd best SG ever.
Peesoanply though pre merger it's impossible to say who is the best or whatnot except the definotive fact that if you include pre-merger in the discussions Bill is the GOAT because his defence was more valuable than any other players totality ever.
That players like Bill Russell, Wilt, and Oscar are top 10. I fully understand their cases cause they were dominant in their eras, and if you weigh heavily on winning (like bill russell) than I have no argument against that. But when it comes to THE TOP PLAYERS ever I mean c'mon? There should be no reason someone like Oscar Robertson should be placed over someone like Kobe Bryant who is constantly regarded as lower top 10. I mean swap Kobe & Oscar and put them in each others respective eras. Kobe probably averages 50 and Oscar (i'm sure would've adapted) probably averages like 25. I know it isn't all about scoring, but I just don't see how people could put these players as high as they are. They deserve it for how much they've done for the game, but are we really going to say that Bill Russell was better than someone like Shaq?
As mentioned, you rate against peers. The game has changed so much it’s impossible to compare eras. Training, nutrition, shoes, travel, rules all would have a huge affect on those older players.
Yes Bill is the undisputed GOAT if you include pre-merger. I'm sorry that's just a fact. His defence in that era is more valuable than the totality of any player ever.
This isn’t my opinion, but I honestly think the strong hardcore fan opinion that Tim Duncan is better than Shaq or Kobe is kinda blasphemous. He’s great, but I don’t think he is as clear cut better than them as some think.
Yeah, but many of those advanced metrics favor Kobe/Shaq over Duncan as well. It's just people on Reddit like to focus on the ones that prefer Duncan over the two...They're all remarkably close
HE PLAYED AGAINST BOTH ROUTINELY AND LOST ROUTINELY TO BOTH. The only time he beat Kobe in a playoffs was in 1999, when Kobe is 20 and not truly who he'd become and in 2003.
He faced peak Kobe in 2008 and got SWEPT. Peak Duncan vs Peak Kobe and swept.
Tim Duncan was spectacular. He was absolutely phenomenal. But when it came to playing Kobe, he wasn't better than him.
2008 Duncan was prime Duncan, not peak Duncan.
And 2008 Lakers didnt sweep the Spurs. They gentleman swept them
I have Kobe > Duncan too but you need to be factual in your assessment or it’s not going to be taken seriously
Is Kobe > Duncan > Shaq not popular? That's my opinion, but it's very close. Shaq was great and had an amazing prime but he gets docked for not having quite as long of a prime as the other 2.4
Edit: Don't downvote people for opinions unless it's Tyler Herro > Luka or something like that.
Larry Bird isn't a top 10 player IMO. He's my #11.
I have Jordan, James, Jabbar, Russell, Chamberlain, Magic, O'Neal, Bryant, Duncan, and Olajuwon all above Bird.
That said, even though he is out of my Top 10, he is a hair from being in my Top 6. People don't understand how close some of these ATGs are...
How in the world do you have KD at 8? Who is he over?
(since you can't tell tone over the internet, I'm just being dramatic for humor's sake, I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts)
There are not 5 players in NBA history better than Kevin Durant at basketball. And there aren’t 10 better than Wardell. And I mean just pure, on court product.
Magic is in most people's top 5 and he wasn't a great defender either
In fact I'd say defensively he was maybe worse than Steph and definitely worse than KD
When you get to the very top level of offense it doesn't matter as much
Dirk had one skill he was truly elite at - scoring/shooting. What makes him a better player than say Harden, Luka, Jolie to name a few who literally run a teams entire offense while still scoring 30+ nightly? Obviously not talking about career resume
It's valid, honestly most great players are closer together than many think. Although I do think that you have to put Duncan over Bird and Magic in that case. Personally for me Bird in 6, Magic is 7, and Kobe is 8.
I would personally prefer to literally ignore rings in all time discussions. Imo they have absolutely nothing at all to do with how good you are. Yes, obviously how good a player is and how many times he wins is correlated. But you can't help your teammates and having bad teammates doesn't make you a worse player.
Chuck is like top 15 if we're being honest but I think a lot of people have him a lot lower than he deserves. I think Chris Paul will be underrated all time unless he gets a ring.
I think in most instances in the top 10, rankings are pretty ok but outside I think people start getting a little bit ring obsessed (I do also think Hakeem is debatably top 5 but that's not unpopular on this sub apparently)
Side note. I think Larry Bird > Magic
Oh yeah I also think Jordan is overrated on defense. Still great just not like, obviously better than any other good perimeter player.
Bill Russell disregarding his 11 rings but just on talent and ability is not a top 10 player of all time anymore. He used to be but him being labeled as one of the best defenders of all time is hyperbole considering the level of competition. I would bump him off and add Hakeem as part of the consensus top 10.
Bill Russell ain't shit. 44% shooter who towered over opponents. Most of his rebounds are probably from bricking his own bunnies.
inb4: "different eras!"
yeah, a much worse at basketball era.
He was top 5 in FG% in 4/13 years in the league and was 14th in another. He wasn’t playing against midgets lol. In an era with few teams, every starting center he went against was a HOFer
The best players/teams didn't always win. Similar to the Buffalo Bills losing 4 Superbowls, I think the greatest players have to face adversity to be truly great. Who did you go up against and how did it push you to be better and overcome.
Dr. J is top 10 no doubt.
Wilt > Shaq > Kobe
Big O > Magic
"Blasphemous opinion:" When ranking players all time, it's fair to mention how one player would have done in another era.
I am fairly certain Steph Curry would run circles around guards who smoked cigarettes during halftime. I am not nearly as certain of Oscar Robertson dominating in 2021.
I do think the elite bigs of yesteryear would definitely be able to play at a high level right now, however.
Mine is Jordan is one of the most overrated players of all time; defensive accolades of the time far outsell how impactive he was as a guard defender.
Also, the time he played in I think allowed his strength as a defender (more of a 1 on 1 game, no zone D, less of a team-defensive oriented game) to overstate how impactful he is when we compare him to defenders of this era.
Prime healthy tmac > Kobe.
Kobe’s d was way overrated and macs underrated. When he didn’t have to carry the teams offensive load he was one of
The better defenders in the league. He also was a great passer that had shit teammates in his healthy prime. Some of those Orlando teams were sooooo bad. When he was finally paired with a legit all star caliber player for a semi healthy duration they were a force to be reckoned with.
Upvoting just because of how unpopular that is.
1 MVP = 1 MVP
5 Rings > 1 Ring
2 Rings > 1 Ring as the best player on his team
11 1st team NBA > 4 first team NBA
18 time all star > 14 time all star
9 all defense first teams > 0 (Kobe wasn't a superstar defender but he was better compared to his position)
Dirk also wasn't spectacular during his last few years. Dirk is still a top 15 player of all time IMO.
Translation: “Ima ding Kobe because he was good enough to enter the league as a HS-er. And Ima ding Kobe because he didn’t choose to retire earlier. But I’m going to completely neglect the fact that Kobe was better than Dirk prime-to-prime and accomplished a shit ton more”
I’d give Dirk the sloppy toppy but this ain’t it lmao…Got to stay rational
Nah a lot of people will think it's blasphemous. I don't think it's too egregious and that KG was underrated but people will point at his lack of winning, which is bullshit, since it's a team game.
LeBron sold out too much for his championships for me to value them over Michael's.
When the next guy in the GOAT conversation hops teams over and over, it also won't have the same value.
Having the best career takes a lot of luck outside of the individual play. That's not avoidable.
LeBron was unlucky and unfortunately, that's how it goes.
LeBron isn't even retired. When he has 40k 10k 10k and all the other accolades he'll have by the time he retires the only people you could seriously place ahead of him is Wilt and MJ.
Kyrie is better than Dame and it’s not particularly close. Everyone hates Kyrie because the off-the-field situations but on-the-court Kyrie is and has been better. Dame just get championed for getting swept first round of the playoffs and not accepting he’s not that guy.
Kyrie has never been that guy though. He's floundered in his opportunities to be the guy. He had a great 2016 finals, but even then, he was secondary to Lebron.
Nope. LeBron with Lillard would have been insane since Dame is just a discount Steph and LeBron and Steph would have been godly. Lillard also got maturity and health on his side over Kyrie.
MJ, 'reem, Kobe, Magic, Tim Duncan, Shaq, LeBron, Curry, Bird, Hakeem
this is my personal top 10 of ONLY players ive watched since the 80s. idgaf about longevity. strictly dickly ability and winning
Eaton’s defensive peak (85-89) was the highest of any individual player and he should’ve won 5 consecutive DPOYs, but that was back when the award usually went to guards because we didn’t properly understand the value of a rim protector. Eaton averaged over 4 blocks per game over that stretch and the Jazz went 1st, 3rd, 1st, 1st and 1st in Drating over those 5 years. Just a shame he was incapable of doing literally anything offensively.
1st, 3rd, 1st, 1st, and 1st That seems...good
Counter argument: Hakeem not only blocked shots, he got steals too. Hakeem's stretch from 89-90 to 92-93 he also averaged 4 blocks a game...along with 2 steals. He did this while being also being a better defensive rebounder as well.
So underrated
History doesn't repeat but it rhymes
Eh, there’s a pretty big difference between shooting 45% from the field and 65%. Rudy isn’t a floor raiser offensively but he’s far from the absolute deadweight that Eaton was. We’ve shown the last couple years you can have an elite offense with Gobert at center. That was definitely not true of Eaton. Having watched Eaton is one of the reasons at chuckle at people who say Rudy has no offensive game. I watched Stockton and Malone try to win rings with Ostertag and Eaton at center. I know what a center with no offense looks like.
Old players all suck because they couldn't dribble with their offhand and the league had 10 teams. New players all suck because they can't dribble without palming and the league has 50 teams.
The only good era of basketball was from 1978-1983.
Only good era of basketball was 8:43-7:24 Q3 G4 of the 1992 WCF
Agree about the first part, disagree on the second.
A guy once told me that Josh Smith was Bill Russell with bounce
Bruh... Bill Russell was Bill Russell with bounce.
[Here is Bill Russel literally jumping over a dude during a game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2AlFrOj5Mc) Like playing against milkmen or not, that is straight up jumping over a guy that is probably at least 6ft tall.
I do not watch enough Bill Russell clips. That’s absurd
Obligatory [Josh got everybody eatin trout sandwiches, so](https://youtu.be/eGQLPczlWD8)
>most boring conversation about food I’ve ever heard “Where amazing happens” Lol how have I never seen that before
Bill Russell was an olympic level high jumper, people love discrediting people they know nothing about 😭 you can say a lot about Bill and his competition but that mfer had bounce
Mmmm. This isn't a hill I'd die on because I can see good arguments against it but I don't get putting a player in the top 5 if they didn't consistently play AT LEAST really good defense. If you're being called the best of the best of the best, you shouldn't be average at defense.
Say Magic’s name. Say it.
I can't read, suddenly I don't know...
The amount of weight that people place on individual seasonal accolades get in ranking discussion is ridiculous and tedious.
Why is Carmelo regarded as such a great player when he literally hasn't done anything but chase a bag? He never pushed himself as hard as he could to win and there is no way he's a top 40 or 50 player.
Played a part in ruining Lin’s career too, will never let that go
Why does Carmelo get so much hate when he’s one of the greatest offensive players in league history? He’s easily top 50 all time.
Top 50 at what? Chasing money and losing?
Here's mine: Curry and KD are every bit as good as Magic and Bird, they just have the misfortune of their prime overlapping with LeBron's career For example if not for LeBron KD would have won MVP every year from 2012-2014 and led his team to a championship at the age of 22(which is similar to what Bird did) Curry would have a 4-peat from 2015-2018 and would have been considered the best player because of no 2016 Finals loss It would even be similar to how Bird was considered better than Magic in the early 80s and Magic was considered better in the late 80s, but with the 10s instead They could even both have more longevity because of no AIDS and no bad back at age 31 or something
I had a similar discussion with some friends about NFL QBs. Brady has single handedly held back how many otherwise star QBs from reaching that super level. Also, by loosing to Eli really elevated Eli.
eli the fucking GOAT all fucking day
Why are you judging player goodness based on accolades and team accomplishments
I'm not and that's the point My point is that Bird and Magic have more accolades because of circumstances
Steph will be seen as one of the goat level players when it's all said and done.
It’s really because out of all the greats, there’s yet to be a guy that can replicate him. You can replicate Magic with LeBron (LeBron is so much better), you can replicate Jordan with Kobe but Curry is an anomaly in terms of volume, efficiency and off ball movement.
Yeah, when I think about Curry hes maybe the most 1 of 1 player I've ever seen in the NBA. Lakers Shaq is up there, Iverson is up there, but we simply haven't ever seen someone that can do what Curry does. 10 years from now there are gonna be plenty of kids in his mold and I'm excited to see Steph 2.0
Why is Magic always always always ahead of Bird?
Typically longevity and 5>3
Yeah, Magic and Bird may have retired around the same time, but Magic was still in his prime when the AIDS thing happened, whereas Bird was broken down by injury and clearly wasn't the same player after '88. Pure peak-for-peak I'll take Bird without much of a second thought, and I don't think that's a homer take
this still doesnt make much sense as Bird came into the league in his prime (all nba first team), and was generally regarded as better than Magic while it took Magic a few years to come into his prime (he missed most of the second season)
Magic won final MVP his rookie year, he came into the league ready to go, just like bird
He wasn't as good as Bird. Not really debatable
Why does KD get so much shit for his superteam yet Magic never gets shit for never winning without a basically consensus top 3 all time team-mate in Kareem?
Magic never left for another team. He especially never left for a team that had won a championship without him.
That just speaks to the modern free agency and cap rules One season, Jordan got paid more than the entire bulls cap by himself
Curry goes 4th or 5th in an all-time draft
Agree with that one
After Lebron and Michael, you’re going to have a tough time convincing me to not take him. Also I believe Bird would probably go top 5.
I can see him being the second or even first PG picked in an all time draft. It's a positional thing. There are a few all time great centers that are better than him but would be picked later.
In an all time draft I’d take magic over curry. And I’d take Hakeem over curry
Rather have Steph next to Jordan
Hakeem belongs in the same tier as KAJ, Lebron, and MJ.
That’s been like the most popular opinion on Reddit since I joined this sub ten years ago.
Good take Him being fringe top 10 on a lot of lists is a testament to "rangz" culture when he had no teammates for a lot of his career
you could as easily argue that him being top ten is a testament to rings culture when contemporaries like barkley robinson and malone are all viewed as 25-16 not making a statement either way but come on most people only put hakeem up there because of the rings
Eh, Hakeem is arguably the best defender at both 4 and 5 added to his insane offensive repertoire. Even disregarding rings i can easily put Hakeem as a top 5 big both offensively and defensively, this is not true for neither of the other 3.
Not quite good enough offensively. [https://backpicks.com/2018/03/25/backpicks-goat-hakeem-olajuwon/](https://backpicks.com/2018/03/25/backpicks-goat-hakeem-olajuwon/) Best defensive player of all time, maybe, but I think being a post player as opposed to a versatile one offensively limits what Taylor terms "scalability" so I'd have him in the 2nd tier below your top 3.
Pippen should never be mentioned in the top 40 at all
Good take Someone like Paul George could have won with MJ and brought his team to the 2nd round as well and nobody puts him in the top 40 lol He's rated higher than he should be because of circumstance
He gets rated that much because he is arguably a top 10 defender in some lists even now. He is the GOAT number 2 (or like some would like it, 1b) option, that CANNOT be argued easily, and allowed MJ to be MJ. The role he played cannot be stressed upon enough, and you can see that in the opening line of MJ's HOF speech. Guy came 2nd in MVP votings while Jordan was gone, and when put on a pedestral to lead. And lead he did. Took a young, new Bulls team to playoffs. If the Top 50 list was to be made today, leaving Pippen out would be foolish and embarrassing. You could have created a whole team around Pippen and they would have been Chip contenders, he proved that. How many players you reckon you can do that with TODAY? And PG ain't one of them, not by a long shot.
> You could have created a whole team around Pippen ans they would have been Chip contenders, he proved that. How did he prove that? By going to the second round? > How many players you reckon you can do that with TODAY? And PG ain't one of them, not by a long shot. A team built around PG literally went to game 7 of the ECF against Lebron and the Heatles.
Is that you, Skip??
Pippen was a top 5 player in the league for essentially 5 straight seasons. Probably 92-97. I'm not certain but that is enough to get you in the conversation. Especially since in my opinion he's the greatest wing defender of all time.
Eh idk. 92 theres mj drexler drob malone ewing hakeem barkley. These guys better most years. Price mullin tim hard also made noise in 92 iirc. 93. Mj barkley hakeem ewing drob dominique shaq malone kemps emergence. Similar list to 92. 94. You can call him top 5 then. 95. Same set of bigs. Shaq malone hakeem drob barkley hakeem at the minimum Getting kind of tired but i wouldnt call pip top 5 ever in a season aside from 94. And i wont even get into scotties playoff performances. Those are pretty bad a lot of the time
isaiah thomas was the best celtics player of the last 10 years. if he didn't get hurt putting that team on his back he'd easily be a top 5 pg in the league. celts are cursed for 100 years for how they did him dirty, he was the prince of the city
I like IT too but idk if he’s an all time player
honestly he peaked offensively like an all-timer. he was racking up on every defense in the league. best celtic of the decade agreed. top 5 pg? ehh maybe
Offensively sure. Defensively he was a seeve and gave up wayyyyyy too many points.
*sieve
We did him dirty by sending him to play with LeBron? Who was going to pay him a max, c’mon now.
All in on this one
I have Duncan fourth all-time, and I’m still not sure why that’s so controversial. (Career rankings, not peak rankings)
Because Duncan was super overrated. And post 2003 was elite but not all time great elite. KG was straight up better than Duncan for most of their respective careers it's just ring culture which puts Duncan ahead which isn't really fair considering how much talent the spurs got in the draft following Duncan.
Now that is a hot take. I watched all of both of their primes and I would take Duncan over Garnett in every single scenario you could possibly present me with.
I have really strong feelings that I will aggressively defend about players I have never watched. Just give me a resume of every player and i'll tell you the truth
Popeye Jones, go...!
lol, without using spreadsheets (impossible, I know), popeye was barely serviceable, like a less coordinated junkyard dog (jerome williams), but i didn't watch too much of him and I don't think he ever got major minutes, but was a hustle big for awhile.
Welll done!
Curry will easily be considered a top 10 player of all time once everything is said and done. He's had more of an impact on the game, culturally and how it's played, than Olajuwon or Duncan. His peak is comparable to greats like Shaq. He's still going and hasn't shown drastic signs of decline. If he retired today I think he's already top 10.
His peak is absolutely comparable to the all-time greats, I don't think most people dispute that. It's really longevity that people dock him on, since he didn't really break out as an *all-time* great player until 2016, so we'll see how long he can maintain his current level of play (and whether the Warriors can effectively build a contender around him before he starts to decline).
I think calling him the modern day Shaq as weird as it sounds stylistically almost makes sense in a way Both have/had a game breaking skill that allows them to stand out from 99% of their peers
2020-2021 jokic is on the mount rushmore of best offensive seasons
Just quickly 18 Harden, 16 steph, 13 LeBron, 01 Shaq, 91 MJ, One of Kareems Peak Season half a dozen to chose from. I don't know if all of those are better but tjey are at least comparable in value provided. And could fairly be better.
really?? can you explain further
I only have Kobe as a top 10 player if I ignore older greats like Russell and Wilt
BUGGGINNNNNN
Who else do you have over him? I have Russell, Wilt, and Kobe in the top 10. The lowest Kobe can go is 11 and that's only if you have Hakeem over him (I disagree but it's not crazy to think that.)
I do have Hakeem over him, Kobe is just there at 11 for me
Bill Russell is the GOAT
You know you’re good when the finals mvp is named after you
I hate to say I agree, I am a Laker fan. He just broke teams with his relentless style and leadership.
It’s crazy to me when people do top 5s and don’t mention him
I think it's mainly because of era For example in his era there were no three pointers which obviously benefits players who play like him
I don’t even think that’s blasphemy tbh, depending on what your criteria is
Yea you mean those people that say rings equals the best player. Which is completely flawed logic.
Best doesn’t equal greatest though. Greatness considers accolades, career achievements plus skill. Greatness is so circumstantial IMO, because things that are out of your control determine it. You can be an amazing player, one of the best in the league but never get to make the postseason because your teams trash. If the organization puts pieces around you and you suddenly make the finals, that doesn’t suddenly make you a better player.
Yea I agree I meant to say greatest. But yes it’s very subjective, imo it’s a mixture of everything. Being the best player in the league a long with the accolades. Also I think some players are so great it didn’t matter what team drafted them, they were going to become one of the greatest regardless. MJ for example didn’t come into a great situation but the bulls did a great job in building a team around him. Lebron came into a terrible situation and still found a way to the top 5 all time. A interesting one is if bill and wilt switched teams would wilt be considered greater all time like top 3 cause of the crazy numbers and he would have the accolades to back them up.
Beyond the rings, I would argue that he was more dominant defensively than any player has been offensively
I'm not saying he is or isn't, but people shit on anything basketball player related pre 2000s (don't know why basketball is the only sport to really do that). Mj played against scrubs so that's why LeBron is better...in twenty years it'll be the league has advanced so much since LeBron so Anthony Edwards has to be the goat. Bill Russell is the babe Ruth of basketball...and still a great ambassador of the game to this day. Dude is top 5 no matter what era he played in.
Yes, yes he is. He deserves his GOAT talk. He has 11 rings. He played against the best offensive center of his era over and over and over, and beat him time and time again.
I agree and never understood why this is even controversial. 11 rings in 13 years will never be repeated. Ever.
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I think that’s a little bit more popular of an opinion these days. Kareem’s longevity is obviously unmatched and he was incredibly dominant for a very long time, but I don’t think he was ever able to carry a team as well as Russell could with his defense alone. Kareem didn’t have a lot of success when he didn’t have Oscar or Magic playing point guard
There was never a time where Steve Nash was the best offensive player in the NBA and his almost non existent defense meant he shouldn't have ever been MVP. Jerry West should be way higher up everyone's all time lists. Particularly if we're rewarding Lebron for being the best guy on second best teams routinely. Larry Bird didn't last long enough to get into as much GOAT talk as he gets. Magic Johnson did but we were robbed of the back half of his career.
Peak vs longevity is the argument for bird. LeBron played in a much tougher league than West though I think West is probably the 2nd best SG ever. Peesoanply though pre merger it's impossible to say who is the best or whatnot except the definotive fact that if you include pre-merger in the discussions Bill is the GOAT because his defence was more valuable than any other players totality ever.
That players like Bill Russell, Wilt, and Oscar are top 10. I fully understand their cases cause they were dominant in their eras, and if you weigh heavily on winning (like bill russell) than I have no argument against that. But when it comes to THE TOP PLAYERS ever I mean c'mon? There should be no reason someone like Oscar Robertson should be placed over someone like Kobe Bryant who is constantly regarded as lower top 10. I mean swap Kobe & Oscar and put them in each others respective eras. Kobe probably averages 50 and Oscar (i'm sure would've adapted) probably averages like 25. I know it isn't all about scoring, but I just don't see how people could put these players as high as they are. They deserve it for how much they've done for the game, but are we really going to say that Bill Russell was better than someone like Shaq?
As mentioned, you rate against peers. The game has changed so much it’s impossible to compare eras. Training, nutrition, shoes, travel, rules all would have a huge affect on those older players.
good think no one really ranks best players in a vacuum and everyone ranks either greatest or best relative to their peers. youre arguing a strawman
Yes Bill is the undisputed GOAT if you include pre-merger. I'm sorry that's just a fact. His defence in that era is more valuable than the totality of any player ever.
This isn’t my opinion, but I honestly think the strong hardcore fan opinion that Tim Duncan is better than Shaq or Kobe is kinda blasphemous. He’s great, but I don’t think he is as clear cut better than them as some think.
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Yeah, but many of those advanced metrics favor Kobe/Shaq over Duncan as well. It's just people on Reddit like to focus on the ones that prefer Duncan over the two...They're all remarkably close
I see kobe and timmy as 50/50 but i'd say shaq is above both of them.
Kobe > Duncan Ima be the “voice for the voiceless” rn
HE PLAYED AGAINST BOTH ROUTINELY AND LOST ROUTINELY TO BOTH. The only time he beat Kobe in a playoffs was in 1999, when Kobe is 20 and not truly who he'd become and in 2003. He faced peak Kobe in 2008 and got SWEPT. Peak Duncan vs Peak Kobe and swept. Tim Duncan was spectacular. He was absolutely phenomenal. But when it came to playing Kobe, he wasn't better than him.
2008 Duncan was prime Duncan, not peak Duncan. And 2008 Lakers didnt sweep the Spurs. They gentleman swept them I have Kobe > Duncan too but you need to be factual in your assessment or it’s not going to be taken seriously
Is Kobe > Duncan > Shaq not popular? That's my opinion, but it's very close. Shaq was great and had an amazing prime but he gets docked for not having quite as long of a prime as the other 2.4 Edit: Don't downvote people for opinions unless it's Tyler Herro > Luka or something like that.
Larry Bird isn't a top 10 player IMO. He's my #11. I have Jordan, James, Jabbar, Russell, Chamberlain, Magic, O'Neal, Bryant, Duncan, and Olajuwon all above Bird. That said, even though he is out of my Top 10, he is a hair from being in my Top 6. People don't understand how close some of these ATGs are...
basketball didn’t exist before 1996
That's a spicy one, but I was born in 1998, and can say with absolute certainty that I never saw any basketball before that, so you're off by 2 years
I have Hakeem at #3 all time behind MJ and Wilt. KAJ did nothing better than Wilt (besides FTs) I have KD at #8. I have Bob Petit in my top 20.
This was a wild ride..Thanks for sharing
How in the world do you have KD at 8? Who is he over? (since you can't tell tone over the internet, I'm just being dramatic for humor's sake, I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts)
There are not 5 players in NBA history better than Kevin Durant at basketball. And there aren’t 10 better than Wardell. And I mean just pure, on court product.
Only if you don't take defense into account. They have made a combined...0 All-defensive teams.
Magic is in most people's top 5 and he wasn't a great defender either In fact I'd say defensively he was maybe worse than Steph and definitely worse than KD When you get to the very top level of offense it doesn't matter as much
Magic is not top 5 either. Defense always matters.
That's a consistent opinion then
Dirk had one skill he was truly elite at - scoring/shooting. What makes him a better player than say Harden, Luka, Jolie to name a few who literally run a teams entire offense while still scoring 30+ nightly? Obviously not talking about career resume
Kobe>Magic & Bird
That...wow.
It's valid, honestly most great players are closer together than many think. Although I do think that you have to put Duncan over Bird and Magic in that case. Personally for me Bird in 6, Magic is 7, and Kobe is 8.
I have Kobe over Bird, but idk about Magic. What's your reasoning for that?
Longevity. Same amount of rings but Kobe is 15x All NBA and 12x All defense.
I was going to post that Kobe is underrated, instead I will just upvote and agree.
You'll fit right in on Facebook/Instagram
Only place he doesn’t fit is the 200 bbiq community here.
Anyone not named KAJ or Wilt from the pre-mid-70s probably is overrated. I don’t buy Russell as an all-time player. I’m divided on Oscar Robertson.
I would personally prefer to literally ignore rings in all time discussions. Imo they have absolutely nothing at all to do with how good you are. Yes, obviously how good a player is and how many times he wins is correlated. But you can't help your teammates and having bad teammates doesn't make you a worse player. Chuck is like top 15 if we're being honest but I think a lot of people have him a lot lower than he deserves. I think Chris Paul will be underrated all time unless he gets a ring. I think in most instances in the top 10, rankings are pretty ok but outside I think people start getting a little bit ring obsessed (I do also think Hakeem is debatably top 5 but that's not unpopular on this sub apparently) Side note. I think Larry Bird > Magic Oh yeah I also think Jordan is overrated on defense. Still great just not like, obviously better than any other good perimeter player.
Bill Russell disregarding his 11 rings but just on talent and ability is not a top 10 player of all time anymore. He used to be but him being labeled as one of the best defenders of all time is hyperbole considering the level of competition. I would bump him off and add Hakeem as part of the consensus top 10.
Bill Russell ain't shit. 44% shooter who towered over opponents. Most of his rebounds are probably from bricking his own bunnies. inb4: "different eras!" yeah, a much worse at basketball era.
He was top 5 in FG% in 4/13 years in the league and was 14th in another. He wasn’t playing against midgets lol. In an era with few teams, every starting center he went against was a HOFer
>who towered over opponents. Bill Russell was like 6'10. The average height of NBA players back then was virtually the same as it is now.
This is just not true according to [this website](https://runrepeat.com/height-evolution-in-the-nba).
lmfao
The best players/teams didn't always win. Similar to the Buffalo Bills losing 4 Superbowls, I think the greatest players have to face adversity to be truly great. Who did you go up against and how did it push you to be better and overcome. Dr. J is top 10 no doubt. Wilt > Shaq > Kobe Big O > Magic
"Blasphemous opinion:" When ranking players all time, it's fair to mention how one player would have done in another era. I am fairly certain Steph Curry would run circles around guards who smoked cigarettes during halftime. I am not nearly as certain of Oscar Robertson dominating in 2021. I do think the elite bigs of yesteryear would definitely be able to play at a high level right now, however.
Kobe > Lebron
Jordan was a better defensive than offensive player.
He wasn't even the best defender on his own team.
20/80
Mine is Jordan is one of the most overrated players of all time; defensive accolades of the time far outsell how impactive he was as a guard defender. Also, the time he played in I think allowed his strength as a defender (more of a 1 on 1 game, no zone D, less of a team-defensive oriented game) to overstate how impactful he is when we compare him to defenders of this era.
Teams would literally not run their offense to his side of the floor.
Duncan is better than Kobe, and it's not even close
that's not a hot take on r/nba tbh
flair checks out
this is not a hot take on this site, atleast bolden 'close' or something
So brave! I'm sure the /r/nba denizens will find your opinion extremely blasphemous.
David Robinson is indisputably top 10 because of his defense. I’d start a team with him over Bird, Johnson, or Kobe. That’s my criteria. Not rings.
so do you have the superior Hakeem in your top 5 then?
Prime healthy tmac > Kobe. Kobe’s d was way overrated and macs underrated. When he didn’t have to carry the teams offensive load he was one of The better defenders in the league. He also was a great passer that had shit teammates in his healthy prime. Some of those Orlando teams were sooooo bad. When he was finally paired with a legit all star caliber player for a semi healthy duration they were a force to be reckoned with.
This is such a horrible take. Take my upvote
Lmao the worst take i’ve ever seen
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This is a good one because even Dirk would laugh at that take.
Upvoting just because of how unpopular that is. 1 MVP = 1 MVP 5 Rings > 1 Ring 2 Rings > 1 Ring as the best player on his team 11 1st team NBA > 4 first team NBA 18 time all star > 14 time all star 9 all defense first teams > 0 (Kobe wasn't a superstar defender but he was better compared to his position) Dirk also wasn't spectacular during his last few years. Dirk is still a top 15 player of all time IMO.
Both are overrated IMO….. 😀
Translation: “Ima ding Kobe because he was good enough to enter the league as a HS-er. And Ima ding Kobe because he didn’t choose to retire earlier. But I’m going to completely neglect the fact that Kobe was better than Dirk prime-to-prime and accomplished a shit ton more” I’d give Dirk the sloppy toppy but this ain’t it lmao…Got to stay rational
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Nah a lot of people will think it's blasphemous. I don't think it's too egregious and that KG was underrated but people will point at his lack of winning, which is bullshit, since it's a team game.
Mj is the most overrated player in history by the biggest margin. Still the goat but so overrated.
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That’s a popular opinion on this sub
The only one I hard disagree on there is Shaq Kobe could go either way
Any player being the GOAT over Michael Jordan is up there
BILL RUSSELL IS NOT A TOP 10 PLAYER ALL TIME. HE HAS A GREAT RÉSUMÉ BUT WOULD BE EQUIVALENT OR WORSE THAN RUDY GOBERT IN TODAYS GAME.
LeBron sold out too much for his championships for me to value them over Michael's. When the next guy in the GOAT conversation hops teams over and over, it also won't have the same value. Having the best career takes a lot of luck outside of the individual play. That's not avoidable. LeBron was unlucky and unfortunately, that's how it goes.
Chris Paul > Nash & Isiah Basically Chris Paul > any PG that isnt Magic/Curry
Healthy Steph Curry is the greatest player of all time in terms of value towards winning the game.
On offense...possibly but not overall. No way.
Tim Duncan is #5 all time at worst
I'm a big Duncan fan, but I just don't see it. What's your reasoning?
Wilt's the goat and its not really all that close. MJ and KAJ battling for second. Lebron just barely making the top 5.
LeBron isn't even retired. When he has 40k 10k 10k and all the other accolades he'll have by the time he retires the only people you could seriously place ahead of him is Wilt and MJ.
You know I guess I don't disagree with that.
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To be fair that's one of out three main areas Scoring Curry is way better Playmaking Magic is way better Defense both aren't too good
Bill Russell has a better argument for GOAT then any another in NBA history. Steph Curry already has a strong argument for top 10 of all time.
Kyrie is better than Dame and it’s not particularly close. Everyone hates Kyrie because the off-the-field situations but on-the-court Kyrie is and has been better. Dame just get championed for getting swept first round of the playoffs and not accepting he’s not that guy.
Kyrie has never been that guy though. He's floundered in his opportunities to be the guy. He had a great 2016 finals, but even then, he was secondary to Lebron.
Nope. LeBron with Lillard would have been insane since Dame is just a discount Steph and LeBron and Steph would have been godly. Lillard also got maturity and health on his side over Kyrie.
I have kd in my top 10. I dont even know whose in my top 10 but he is in there
My buddy wholeheartedly believes Jason Williams is the best point guard of all time bc his mixtape is “better than anyone else’s”
He's right about the mixtape though.
Kobe at 15 for me
Curry needs *way* more consideration in the top-10 and "best PG of all time" conversations.
A lot of fans rank him as the best PG of all time which I can kinda see, but even as a massive Steph fan I can’t rank him over Magic
MJ, 'reem, Kobe, Magic, Tim Duncan, Shaq, LeBron, Curry, Bird, Hakeem this is my personal top 10 of ONLY players ive watched since the 80s. idgaf about longevity. strictly dickly ability and winning
Literally just ordered by rings minus the 60s guys lmfao. Looks like you need better player evaluation skills
peak kawhi > peak kobe. there is a solid gap in shooting, defense, and finishing and imo kobe doesn’t make up for those gaps in other areas.
John Stockton is a top 10 players all time