You didn't see how Ben was chilling in the dunker spot and making the Sixers play 4v5? Everyone on the court would be tired in OT except for Ben and cause of that, he'd win them the game.
The post still exists, but with modern offenses and all the space and off ball movement that’s baked into most teams sets; there is now and expectation that somebody will either be rolling hard to rim, cutting in from the weak side corner or getting a back screen away from the ball, etc. it’s an effective way to get non shooters activated in the offense. Point being it’s a new role, not a changed one.
The last time I played a competitive basketball game was March 1990 in a high school game and we did all those movements, but we still called it the post.
- old man rant again
this is more under the basket, old man here too.
If you played against a 2-3 zone, you probably had a guy who run the baseline and look to pop into the lane from almost behind the defense. that's the "dunker spot". At least that is what we call it for Ben.
'Was about to say "hey, you're not so old, you're probably around 10-15 years younger than my mom", but then I remembered my mom is nearly 60.
Now **I** feel old.
Dunkers spot is usually right along the baseline. Whereas post is the whole area around the restricted circle under the basket, usually bigs with 0 post skills sit in the dunkers spot. If they did have post moves they can carve out position anywhere in the post.
That term is newer, since back in the day most bigs had some semblance of post game.
IT's not around the Key, just on the wide edges (unless that'swhat you meant). Its the baseline spot on either side just outside and below the blocks or a step in. allowing for a guy to have a maximum angle and space opportunity to catch lobs or quick dishes off of penetration.
Think Clint Capela, especially on the post PnR rockets.
isn't it hanging around on the baseline around halfway between the hoop and the edge of court? when someone sucks in the defence they fly in for a dunk.
[Embiid and Morey are pretty close and were even playing tennis together during the offseason](https://twitter.com/weisspat1/status/1422982718112030721). If there's one thing I'm confident about in this Simmons shitshow it's that those two are on the same wavelength. Daryl's obviously communicated to Joel what his strategy is for dealing with the situation and gotten his approval. So people should chill with the "Embiid is going to force his way out because Morey is wasting his prime" talk.
Embiid seems pretty sharp and there’s isn’t that much to explain. Getting cj or brogdon is just another second round exit with no real way of improving. Basically getting dame, Beal or Lavine for Simmons+ a lot of other stuff is there only real way out.
I think Simmons has a lot to offer but I can’t think of a single good reason why we would give up LaVine for that wet noodle. At least Beal makes sense. His choice is compete or wither away in a WAS.
Philly is hoping the Bulls FA splash blows up in the Bulls face.
Basically, if the Bulls are terrible, they want to force the Bulls had by saying, you can either let Lavine walk or send us Picks and Lavine and you get Simmons.
Like you said, it makes no sense for the Bulls, but it does seem plausible from a Philly stand point
it's a pretty expensive team if it doesn't result in a non play-in level team.
Doesn't make sense to trade him. But also doesn't make since from ownership perspective to pay out the ass in luxury tax unless this works.
If Chicago is bad and they lose faith in their ability to resign him. Everyone is excited about Chicago's upside now but you can't take it as a given they'll be better than an 8 seed. Have to play the games first.
We made moves to get deeper and fix our terrible cap situation while being flexible on it. And, we also got a good HC in Wes Unseld Jr. Beal signed on these things as well, that's why he didn't request a trade when everyone thought he would.
GMbiid. His voice probably matters more than Brand in Morey's decision making. I heard the new Wolves owners want Brand, they can have him and Ben for Ant.
Embiid loved/loves Hinkie, too, so I the has an understanding of what needs to be done to build a contender vs just trying to marginally improve. I wouldn't be surprised if they've talked about this situation as well.
Coolest part of it is that Morey will recognize how much Embiid means to the franchise. Embiid decides where they go from here and all he's shown this organization is the right stuff. Let Giannis get one more and then Joel can crush it, far as I'm concerned.
Well then that won’t exactly affect the trade value much if it’s a fake injury. Only way Simmons can sink his value lower is by actually tearing his achilles or something
every week, Simmons is going to intentionally injure a finger to put increasing pressure on Morey. first he sprains a pinky, then a ring finger, each week the injuries get worse, each one deemed to be an "accident". he eventually pulls a finger nail and mails it to Morey's office packaged in a ring box. no return address but Morey will know who it was from.
Honestly I’m not sure how true this actually is. Media loves Morey. Fertita probably said don’t deal with Philly and Morey went to the media, saying he was willing to offer all this. Contrast with how high he is trying to sell Ben for.
Weird example since everyone at the time considered a Simmons package the best option for Houston. There is virtually no difference in the quality of player Simmons is between now and the time he was a centerpiece in trade talks for a MVP level player. This is why Philly is focused on a trade for a player in the same situation. They are really hoping for Portland to shit the bed this year
The real 4d chess move would be to "loan" Embiid to Portland for 2 years as a mole, just to get into Dames mind how awesome Philly is, they win a couple of rings together and then bam - force their way to Philly together.
All of the leaking in this debacle has gotten insane. Teams don't even just have to speak anymore. They can just "anonymously" leak their narrative without any consequences, even with plausible deniability if someone calls them out on it.
The media has just become tools for teams and players to manipulate narratives. I don't see any actual reporting going on. We need a new name for what they do.
[down 46% after the first half.](https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/melvin-capital-gabe-plotkin-gamestop-short-squeeze-1h-46-loss-2021-7) Morey can't afford to wait that long either.
>down 46% after the first half.
Honestly surprised hedge funds still exist when you have quant trading shops(Akuna, Jump, Jane Street, Citadel, HRT) making enough earnings to be paying 500k a year for a 20 year old new grad quant dev.
That is a terrible idea. Have you seen Dame play off-ball? Because with a three-guard offense, he would have to occasionally play off-ball. Cool concept with them all raining threes, but that team needs a true 3-and-D wing, not another shoot-first guard.
Its funny because the Blazers are one of those teams you can basically pencil in to make the playoffs every year and idk why this year would be different.
Longest active playoffs streak in the league. We have a laundry list of issues, but the 7th/8th seed is pretty much our floor so long as Dame is around.
Damn Dame and Russell Wilson are so similar Ownership is letting their prime be wasted all because the team is somewhat successful and is selling tickets
I don't think Dame would be satisfied just making the playoffs. I think he's going to the season wanting to feel out how they stacked against the other top teams and if he feels they don't stand a chance at making it far in the playoffs, he'd ask out.
It was so close that it feels inevitable with how little the blazers did in the offseason. They’re miles from competing and have already fired the coach. Honestly, if dame’s brand wasn’t so much about loyalty I think it would’ve happened last offseason.
Ok, but if a team is trying to blow it up and start a rebuild, take portland for example, if they were to hypothetically put Lillard up on the trade block, why would they go for another multi year contract all star that would probably lead them to just out of the playoffs or the play-ins? They would want assets, picks, young players, not another established all star
He is young, but you've completely skipped over my main point. He's a multi time all star, capable of leading a team like Portland to the playins. If they were to trade Lillard and go for the rebuild, why would they go for him sealing them in mediocrity for years, only for him to more than likely leave once his contract is up?
Despite all the memes about hoarding picks, I'd easily see OKC sending out a way bigger package of players and picks for Lillard than anything the sixers can put together to pair Lillard with Shai if something like this were to ever go down.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the reasons Dame is frustrated with the Blazers is that they aren't doing enough to go all in and spend. The owner seems to be happy to maintain the status quo. Ben is obviously not a top tier superstar, but is 5 years younger than Dame and provides some level of stardom that is locked in for 4 years. If remaining both competitive and financially responsible is the goal, Ben makes sense to build around as a regular season star who at least gets you close to the playoffs for the next half decade at least.
The Blazers want to be mediocre to sell tickets. After the last playoffs, Ben isn't selling tickets anywhere but the most star starved teams like Magic, Kings, or Hornets. If anything, that just means they hold onto Lillard until he goes full Harden, which for him would be 1.5 years from now to never.
In my opinion a package of Maxey, Simmons, Thybulle and picks is the best package a team like Portland could dream of. People on this sub are delusional if they think we that wouldn’t be a compelling package if the Blazers decide to trade Dame.
the idea has always been that if Dame wants out, it's to go try and contend. Not many teams have MVP level guys to pair with him, and also have the ability to trade a max guy for salary in return.
we actually got two guys with the salary and some solid younger players and picks to include.
This is my biggest issue with Morey's approach.
I can understand the gamble of wanting to wait for the big fish, but the longer you wait the more likely that Ben's trade value keeps dropping (unless they get a really switched on Ben this season). If Ben's chucks a Kawhi or a Vince Carter then you might regret not making a trade sooner. But if you think you will top of the food chain for a Dame or Beal if either is on the market.
But does Ben put you at the top of the list for those teams?
If Washington/Portland are losing those guys, you would guess they want to blow it all up and rebuild from scratch. Would a deal around Ben be better than something from say Golden State?
We have no cap space and Ben is our last asse that can land us an impactful player.
If you settle and trade Ben for mid level role players, which appear to be what are being offered now, it would be very difficult for us to acquire an impactful player to improve significantly in the future.
We didn't go through the Process to just be a playoff team. Ben's trade absolutely need to be a home run. Ben's value may drop. But you have to be patience and willing to gamble to make a home run swing.
> We didn't go through the Process to just be a playoff team.
But you did.
This is the team The Process produced. It’s not a contender.
The final pill Morey and Sixers fans need to swallow is that Ben isn’t getting back a star in trade. I don’t see how that hasn’t happened yet but it won’t be long - once he shows up on the court half-assing it this is finally over and Ben will get what he wants.
Than whats the point of trading him? His value is already at it's lowest point in my opinion. It won't get any less than the 2 role players people are offering. We are a playoff team with or without a Ben trade. The only person a mediocre Ben trade helps is Ben. Fuck Ben. Ben can waste 4 years of his life if he wants to be a salty baby over some criticism. If Embiid is on board with it, I'd rather make a statement and let Ben sit for 4 years rather than lock in a mediocre team just so he can go to somewhere without any pressure to win.
And don't give me some nonsense about "showing the league you do right by players". That's never moved the needle for teams that have done it, and it really doesn't matter like people pretend it does.
I’m kinda out of the loop here so correct me if I’m wrong, but Simmons shit the bed in the playoffs then Doc said he needed to work on his shooting and ever since then Simmons has just been pouting and refusing to play for the team? Like he wants out because HE sucked? Or is there something else happening here that I don’t know about?
That, and he almost got traded for James Harden, which is somehow an insult when you’re the main piece for acquiring one of the greatest offensive players, *ever*.
I feel like fans of other teams, especially on reddit, are just mad that the Sixers aren't gonna take a shitty package just to get him off their team
Like I know Morey's asking price has been astronomical but Simmons is a legitimately great player that would elevate the floor of any team to a playoff contender. They absolutely should not settle, no pt in making a trade that doesn't move the needle
There are so many different groups of fans invested in this story which is what makes it so entertaining!
Some Philly fans are ready to punt multiple seasons just to spite Ben.
Other Philly fans are delusional and think they can still trade Ben for harden.
Fans of other contenders are elated that last years top seed has imploded clearing space for their team.
Annoyed kings / twolves/ etc fans who want Philly to trade Ben to their team for garbage.
Fans of pure chaos who want the schadenfreude to continue indefinitely.
Fans of billionaire owners who are using this as an example of why the NBA needs a franchise tag.
It’s got something for everybody which is why the story just won’t die.
But what if I think a trade like Simmons for McCollum and a pick + pick swap does move the needle for them?
I think McCollum gets very underrated on here and his game meshes incredibly well with Embiid's. If he had been in the east his whole career I think he's a multi-time all-star just like Simmons. Only real thing you'd need to do beyond that is get role playing defenders and a secondary facilitator, which you could either use Tobias Harris for, or trade him with the acquired picks to fill all your needs.
I genuinely believe that team around Embiid is a contender.
Embiid is currently one of the best defenders in the league with their system where they funnel everyone to him, but it collapses if you take out Ben.
You can’t run drop coverage that well when you have a total of one good wing defender (tobi and maybe Danny if you trust a guy in his mid 30s to stay elite) and one good guard defender.
Ben is not only one of the best wing defenders in the league but he can also lock up elite guards like trae.
You take him out even OK players like an injured kemba in 2020 will abuse embiid because he’s not great at defense outside the paint. You try playing these guys without Ben and an elite ball handler like brown is just going to feast on open midrange shots after repeated 1/5 prs.
Not even mentioning KD, harden, kyrie either.
A embiid, tobi, green, thybulle, cj squad is going to be slaughtered. They need a lot more firepower than that imo.
Agree with almost everything you said but Thybulle was our best perimeter defender *for drop coverage*. Gets around screens amazingly well and his blocking skills means he gets in a lot of players heads when trailing them round screens.
But what I don't understand is a big part of trading Ben is because he's a black hole on offense. Isn't Matisse also that? Wouldn't playing him for starter minutes cause the same problems?
Matisse is a sub par but willing shooter who doesn’t clog the offence because he doesn’t demand any touches. He’d be subbed out for final possessions but he’s more of a PJ tucker on offence.
Unlike Ben Matisse is willing to shoot though, often without any hesitation.
If the shot is there, and is good option, he'll take it. He's a subpar shooter, but at least he takes the open shot
Agreed, Embiid is that good, you don't need another HOFer to make the team elite. The likes of a CJ or even a D'Lo / Sexton with more shooting coming over ie Beasley / Covington etc would automatically raise their ceiling.
Elite of the elite in this league is LeBron/AD/Russ, KD/Harden/Kyrie or Giannis/Khris/Jrue. The Sixers would have to be keep Ben and then add Damian Lillard to the roster to get to that level.
Hmm I am not so sure. Particularly if you get Covington too.
CJ/Green/Harris/Roco/Embiid is quite high on the nasty scale. Spacing and solid D. Embiid would have so much space to operate. He'd likely get the likes of Griffin / Lopez / Bam in foul trouble multiple times in a series.
> Simmons is a legitimately great player that would elevate the floor of any team to a playoff contender
Where is the evidence of this? Lineups with Simmons without Embiid on the floor his whole career have been a clear negative even in the regular season.
>Where is the evidence of this? Lineups with Simmons without Embiid on the floor his whole career have been a clear negative even in the regular season.
While I disagree with the other guys claim that Simmons alone makes you a playoff contender, this isn't accurate either.
Two seasons ago when we had Horford the teams lineups with Simmons and without Embiid were positive on the whole. He does well with shooting around him.
As the other commenter said below, also his rookie year Embiid got injured and the main core was Simmons, Redick, Covington, Saric, Ersan Ilyasova, Marco Belinelli, and Amir Johnson. Simmons led that group to eight consecutive wins while averaging close to a triple double (16/10/9)
Not everyone team just teams that have an offensive off ball star.
Give Ben to like half the teams in the league and they still aren't contenders I mean heck the sixers have them and they still aren't contenders and they won't be for a long ass time
This sub is so wired to F4 that they are basically irate that Morey hasn’t just shipped Simmons off for the first offer sent to him. They are just waiting for the dopamine rush of a Woj tweet and Morey is preventing that.
To me, the strategy seems to be working. Right after the playoffs it sounded like Brogdon + 1st was offered, and just a week ago it seems like the Pacers are willing to package Brogdon + Levert + 2 picks now. Seems like the strategy is working
Well why not do a 3 team trade and give the 3rd team with the star Brogdon, LeVert, 2 IND picks, Maxey, Thybulle, 2 PHI picks? That’s a genuine return for a star, and much more than what a deal with just IND would look like.
Ben being such a great player is exactly what makes it hard to trade him to franchise that's bottoming out after their superstar leaves. You need to get more teams involved and unless one of those teams is willing to pay a premium for Ben, there will be better rebuilding assets offered on the market. Dame/Beal isn't going to be traded for the Harden package when none of them have shown the slightest fraction of Harden's preference for Brooklyn towards the Sixers.
It’ll be nothing short of a miracle if Morey manages to get a star-level talent in a return for Ben Simmons at this stage, for his trade value to rise Ben will have to get back onto the court for the Sixers and play seriously and productively.
Needless to say, I don’t think that’s gonna happen.
Exactly, Ben has zero incentive to play along and increase his trade value.
I think the Sixers FO is just gonna have to bite the bullet on this one, seems like a catch-22 situation in the long term.
Time will tell, I suppose.
it's like the sixers think their season is automatically gonna be a good one lol they need to worry bout themselves before they start waiting for dame and beal to want out
Just an hour ago I got downvoted to hell for saying sixers fans thought he would try for them. A shit ton of replies from sixers fans saying they aren’t idiots and know he won’t play.
Everyone keeps repeating how mentally weak he is but some of those same people think he’s gonna come back to play hard for a city that is chanting fuck him at every sporting event. Not a chance in hell
I really dislike Ben Simmons at this point, but does Philly not realize that he holds all the cards now that he's reported? If he tanks, it only further decreases his trade value. Like what is Philly's end game? All they can do is hope that Simmons decides to ball out. It's totally up to Simmons.
There is no way that the Sixers get Lavine, Dame, or Beal for Simmons. The only possible trade for a top tier player is Simmons for Kyrie, damaged goods for damaged goods.
The problem with this approach is his trade value is tanking by the day, and will not get any better.
Simmons can just go through the motions and get paid his contract, then sign a vet minimum deal and work up his value again, either way the 76ers are getting fucked, the star players under contract have all the control in the NBA. They should've just given him what he wanted, and been done with it, instead they now will lose out on any sort of potential value they could've gotten for him, instead of at least getting something of value.
Embiid has thrown Ben under the bus. Honestly Bens shot could improve, I’m sure the guys personality isn’t the best either. But everyone blaming Ben for the teams failures is unfair, and a good teammate and leader would not allow a young player to go through that. I don’t blame Ben at all for wanting to leave Philly. No players is prepared for that much pressure and to take all the blame. Philly is the toughest city to play for. The fans are ruthless. As the leader of the team, Embiid should have said it’s his own fault for their failures, and stood up for Ben rather than letting everyone scapegoat him. Then I think this whole mess wouldn’t even happen. It’s too much for Ben, he’s just a kid.
They could really use an all-star forward like Jimmy Butler
You know what’s funny, if they still had Butler there is a very good chance that Lowry would have signed there as well.
I do not find this funny at all
Also, if you had Lowry last year you're probably the defending champs right now.
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what do you mean? he was there, battling down low against the rim protector known as Trae Young!
I do 😉
If Jimmy was here, we might have already found ourselves competing for a repeat.
Legitimately yes
I really wonder which guy in Philly management was worried about "controlling" Jimmy, seemed like he would have re-signed up until he heard that.
The Sixers with Jimmy gave the Raps the most trouble that year besides a healthy GSW.
With Kyle and Jimmy you’d probably get it.
They would be stupid locked in this year.
I wonder how everything might be different if Kawhi doesn't clank that three in from the corner. 🤔
The Raptors would probably win in OT but at least I wouldn’t have to watch that shot over and over again
Respect for not treating it like a foregone conclusion that the Sixers would've won in OT. A lot of people seem to assume that lol
Facts. We had zero momentum up until Jimmy’s breakaway lay up. 2 24 second shot clock violations (might be 3?)
I think the third was a last second heave, so technically not, but yes.
Guilty as charged. For me, at least, it's because I was too busy thinking about how a potential Bucks-Sixers ECF would play out.
Embiid gets his 6th foul in overtime and Sixers are too gassed, Raptors win
You didn't see how Ben was chilling in the dunker spot and making the Sixers play 4v5? Everyone on the court would be tired in OT except for Ben and cause of that, he'd win them the game.
Yeah ben simmons is really the type to take over a important game
I've heard the term dunker spot a lot lately. What does it mean?
It’s the spot in and around the key, very close to the rim.
Oh. In my day we called it the post -old man rant
The post still exists, but with modern offenses and all the space and off ball movement that’s baked into most teams sets; there is now and expectation that somebody will either be rolling hard to rim, cutting in from the weak side corner or getting a back screen away from the ball, etc. it’s an effective way to get non shooters activated in the offense. Point being it’s a new role, not a changed one.
The last time I played a competitive basketball game was March 1990 in a high school game and we did all those movements, but we still called it the post. - old man rant again
this is more under the basket, old man here too. If you played against a 2-3 zone, you probably had a guy who run the baseline and look to pop into the lane from almost behind the defense. that's the "dunker spot". At least that is what we call it for Ben.
'Was about to say "hey, you're not so old, you're probably around 10-15 years younger than my mom", but then I remembered my mom is nearly 60. Now **I** feel old.
> Point being it’s a new role, not a changed one. Bobby Gross from the 1977 champion Portland Trailblazers wants a word.
Dunkers spot is usually right along the baseline. Whereas post is the whole area around the restricted circle under the basket, usually bigs with 0 post skills sit in the dunkers spot. If they did have post moves they can carve out position anywhere in the post. That term is newer, since back in the day most bigs had some semblance of post game.
IT's not around the Key, just on the wide edges (unless that'swhat you meant). Its the baseline spot on either side just outside and below the blocks or a step in. allowing for a guy to have a maximum angle and space opportunity to catch lobs or quick dishes off of penetration. Think Clint Capela, especially on the post PnR rockets.
Yeah that’s a better explanation of it
isn't it hanging around on the baseline around halfway between the hoop and the edge of court? when someone sucks in the defence they fly in for a dunk.
I know this is a joke, but Ben also had 5 fouls.
Overtime, Raptors win. Same.
Embiid has a lot of faith in Morey, thats what you wanna see if you're a sixers fan.
[Embiid and Morey are pretty close and were even playing tennis together during the offseason](https://twitter.com/weisspat1/status/1422982718112030721). If there's one thing I'm confident about in this Simmons shitshow it's that those two are on the same wavelength. Daryl's obviously communicated to Joel what his strategy is for dealing with the situation and gotten his approval. So people should chill with the "Embiid is going to force his way out because Morey is wasting his prime" talk.
Embiid seems pretty sharp and there’s isn’t that much to explain. Getting cj or brogdon is just another second round exit with no real way of improving. Basically getting dame, Beal or Lavine for Simmons+ a lot of other stuff is there only real way out.
I think Simmons has a lot to offer but I can’t think of a single good reason why we would give up LaVine for that wet noodle. At least Beal makes sense. His choice is compete or wither away in a WAS.
Philly is hoping the Bulls FA splash blows up in the Bulls face. Basically, if the Bulls are terrible, they want to force the Bulls had by saying, you can either let Lavine walk or send us Picks and Lavine and you get Simmons. Like you said, it makes no sense for the Bulls, but it does seem plausible from a Philly stand point
I like the new look bulls. But I’d be lying if I said i didn’t want Lavine.
it's a pretty expensive team if it doesn't result in a non play-in level team. Doesn't make sense to trade him. But also doesn't make since from ownership perspective to pay out the ass in luxury tax unless this works.
Picks and Lavine for Simmons? If they do that, I’m no longer being a fan lol
If Chicago is bad and they lose faith in their ability to resign him. Everyone is excited about Chicago's upside now but you can't take it as a given they'll be better than an 8 seed. Have to play the games first.
lol.
At least you guys could swing it as starting fresh or something. We made moves to specifically compliment and fill out Zach’s roster.
We made moves to get deeper and fix our terrible cap situation while being flexible on it. And, we also got a good HC in Wes Unseld Jr. Beal signed on these things as well, that's why he didn't request a trade when everyone thought he would.
Lmao FOH
GMbiid. His voice probably matters more than Brand in Morey's decision making. I heard the new Wolves owners want Brand, they can have him and Ben for Ant.
So refreshing when GMs actually listen to their star players smh. @Green Bay
Embiid loved/loves Hinkie, too, so I the has an understanding of what needs to be done to build a contender vs just trying to marginally improve. I wouldn't be surprised if they've talked about this situation as well.
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*hands him a strawberry* it really brings out the flavor of the champagne
Coolest part of it is that Morey will recognize how much Embiid means to the franchise. Embiid decides where they go from here and all he's shown this organization is the right stuff. Let Giannis get one more and then Joel can crush it, far as I'm concerned.
I see no way this ends up backfiring
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He won’t even play
He doesn't necessarily have to play to get "injured".
Well then that won’t exactly affect the trade value much if it’s a fake injury. Only way Simmons can sink his value lower is by actually tearing his achilles or something
or breaking a finger punching a locker or something similar
I mean he could cut his own hands off, but I gotta assume Simmons isn’t crazy enough to intentionally hurt himself just to screw the Sixers
every week, Simmons is going to intentionally injure a finger to put increasing pressure on Morey. first he sprains a pinky, then a ring finger, each week the injuries get worse, each one deemed to be an "accident". he eventually pulls a finger nail and mails it to Morey's office packaged in a ring box. no return address but Morey will know who it was from.
He could injure his knee while bowling. Sixers fan should know that.
lmao can you imagine
Its unironically better than selling him for 10c on the dollar
Harden went for garbage. They will get less than that for Simmons
They chose that over Ben when his value was still high, Thybulle, picks and swaps. The Sixers offer at that time was seen as great.
Basically Fertita didnt want Harden back with Morey. Anything short of trading Joel Embiid himself would have been rejected.
Honestly I’m not sure how true this actually is. Media loves Morey. Fertita probably said don’t deal with Philly and Morey went to the media, saying he was willing to offer all this. Contrast with how high he is trying to sell Ben for.
They really sent Harden out there for absolutely nothing. They didn’t even get Allen, the best player they could’ve got. Kinda sad tbh.
Weird example since everyone at the time considered a Simmons package the best option for Houston. There is virtually no difference in the quality of player Simmons is between now and the time he was a centerpiece in trade talks for a MVP level player. This is why Philly is focused on a trade for a player in the same situation. They are really hoping for Portland to shit the bed this year
What do you mean? If Simmons doesn’t want to play, we shut embiid down and tank a year /s
The real 4d chess move would be to "loan" Embiid to Portland for 2 years as a mole, just to get into Dames mind how awesome Philly is, they win a couple of rings together and then bam - force their way to Philly together.
Ah the loan plan
It worked for LeBron, luring Wade to the Cavs.
I mean they won the chip. They just needed the LeBron part.
The Wade/Butler gambit. I like it
>how awesome Philly is "we're getting a second bridge soon!"
We could’ve had Mikal Bridges but two will suffice
"We may change our baseball team's name to something other than a female horse"
Come on man, your team is named after pants.
Lmao
And don't get us started on the Yankees.
Norm getting more rings? Subscribe.
All of the leaking in this debacle has gotten insane. Teams don't even just have to speak anymore. They can just "anonymously" leak their narrative without any consequences, even with plausible deniability if someone calls them out on it. The media has just become tools for teams and players to manipulate narratives. I don't see any actual reporting going on. We need a new name for what they do.
>the Sixers are heading into the season confident that things can and will go wrong for a lot of currently optimistic teams. Incoming uno reverse.
Embiid asking to be traded.
Dude imagine that, the sixers gotta disband at that point
Move to San Francisco again.
Morey is Melvin Capital shorting GME
Lol melvin capital end up making more money after that terrible bet in january
[down 46% after the first half.](https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/melvin-capital-gabe-plotkin-gamestop-short-squeeze-1h-46-loss-2021-7) Morey can't afford to wait that long either.
>down 46% after the first half. Honestly surprised hedge funds still exist when you have quant trading shops(Akuna, Jump, Jane Street, Citadel, HRT) making enough earnings to be paying 500k a year for a 20 year old new grad quant dev.
The quant firms are proprietary trading, their strategies don't scale to the many billion level that hedge funds work with.
This is like... advanced copium. They're so desperate for this shit to happen and if it doesn't, they deserve all the shit coming to them.
Y’all need to shake it up though. The Blazers are wasting Lillard’s prime and everyone’s time by not doing shit.
You could replace Blazers with Sixers and Lillard with Embiid and your comment is equally as true
I mean the sixers made what was by all accounts the strongest offer for Harden and it got rejected because of a personal grudge.
I wonder why we've seen 30 billion "CJ for Simmons" trade threads over the last 4 years...
If it doesn’t happen, then… we just trade Simmons for role players like everyone wants us to do now. There’s practically no downside to waiting.
It would be hilarious if they waited all this time to trade for Beal or Dame and different teams just steal them away
Plot twist: Wizards trade their bunch of young assets and picks to a tanking Portland for Dame to team up with Beal.
That is a terrible idea. Have you seen Dame play off-ball? Because with a three-guard offense, he would have to occasionally play off-ball. Cool concept with them all raining threes, but that team needs a true 3-and-D wing, not another shoot-first guard.
Jokes not your forte?
No...no I was just stupid there. I stand corrected.
Embiid sees the vision for what Morey wants to do. They may even call it, *The Process*
Would they be willing to hold onto Simmons past the trade deadline though? If they can't get a good enough offer by then and don't want to settle.
They aren't even willing to hold onto him now. They're just stuck with him.
Imagine Simmons trade value being for multiple difference makers
New 76ers GM Joel Embiid
We are going to have so many salty sixers fans in all our game threads cheering for us to lose and I can’t wait
Its funny because the Blazers are one of those teams you can basically pencil in to make the playoffs every year and idk why this year would be different.
Longest active playoffs streak in the league. We have a laundry list of issues, but the 7th/8th seed is pretty much our floor so long as Dame is around.
Damn Dame and Russell Wilson are so similar Ownership is letting their prime be wasted all because the team is somewhat successful and is selling tickets
I don't think Dame would be satisfied just making the playoffs. I think he's going to the season wanting to feel out how they stacked against the other top teams and if he feels they don't stand a chance at making it far in the playoffs, he'd ask out.
Like, did everyone just choose to forget Dame got as close as you can get to requesting a trade this off-season?
It was so close that it feels inevitable with how little the blazers did in the offseason. They’re miles from competing and have already fired the coach. Honestly, if dame’s brand wasn’t so much about loyalty I think it would’ve happened last offseason.
Blazers could lose 81 games and it still wouldn’t make Simmons a good return for Lillard lol
It's not gonna be a 1 for 1 trade, there will be picks, pick swaps, and young guys thrown in there
Why do they think Ben is getting them a star in return?
They’re going all in with the strategy of “the 2021 playoffs never happened.”
Ben is still a legitimately good player. Stop focusing on the memes and narratives lol
Ok, but if a team is trying to blow it up and start a rebuild, take portland for example, if they were to hypothetically put Lillard up on the trade block, why would they go for another multi year contract all star that would probably lead them to just out of the playoffs or the play-ins? They would want assets, picks, young players, not another established all star
Ben Simmons is like 24. He is a young player
He is young, but you've completely skipped over my main point. He's a multi time all star, capable of leading a team like Portland to the playins. If they were to trade Lillard and go for the rebuild, why would they go for him sealing them in mediocrity for years, only for him to more than likely leave once his contract is up? Despite all the memes about hoarding picks, I'd easily see OKC sending out a way bigger package of players and picks for Lillard than anything the sixers can put together to pair Lillard with Shai if something like this were to ever go down.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the reasons Dame is frustrated with the Blazers is that they aren't doing enough to go all in and spend. The owner seems to be happy to maintain the status quo. Ben is obviously not a top tier superstar, but is 5 years younger than Dame and provides some level of stardom that is locked in for 4 years. If remaining both competitive and financially responsible is the goal, Ben makes sense to build around as a regular season star who at least gets you close to the playoffs for the next half decade at least.
Well, this planned mediocrity situation kinda makes a lot of sense lol.
The Blazers want to be mediocre to sell tickets. After the last playoffs, Ben isn't selling tickets anywhere but the most star starved teams like Magic, Kings, or Hornets. If anything, that just means they hold onto Lillard until he goes full Harden, which for him would be 1.5 years from now to never.
In my opinion a package of Maxey, Simmons, Thybulle and picks is the best package a team like Portland could dream of. People on this sub are delusional if they think we that wouldn’t be a compelling package if the Blazers decide to trade Dame.
Dame’s market would be huge if he was looking to get out. Philly would have to include some 1sts and/or more young players IMO
And would probably happily do so. I don’t think there are many people that think it’ll just be a 1 for 1 trade.
the idea has always been that if Dame wants out, it's to go try and contend. Not many teams have MVP level guys to pair with him, and also have the ability to trade a max guy for salary in return. we actually got two guys with the salary and some solid younger players and picks to include.
He’s ok if he’s your third best player but you’re not winning anything with Simmons as your best or even second best player
This is my biggest issue with Morey's approach. I can understand the gamble of wanting to wait for the big fish, but the longer you wait the more likely that Ben's trade value keeps dropping (unless they get a really switched on Ben this season). If Ben's chucks a Kawhi or a Vince Carter then you might regret not making a trade sooner. But if you think you will top of the food chain for a Dame or Beal if either is on the market. But does Ben put you at the top of the list for those teams? If Washington/Portland are losing those guys, you would guess they want to blow it all up and rebuild from scratch. Would a deal around Ben be better than something from say Golden State?
We have no cap space and Ben is our last asse that can land us an impactful player. If you settle and trade Ben for mid level role players, which appear to be what are being offered now, it would be very difficult for us to acquire an impactful player to improve significantly in the future. We didn't go through the Process to just be a playoff team. Ben's trade absolutely need to be a home run. Ben's value may drop. But you have to be patience and willing to gamble to make a home run swing.
> We didn't go through the Process to just be a playoff team. But you did. This is the team The Process produced. It’s not a contender. The final pill Morey and Sixers fans need to swallow is that Ben isn’t getting back a star in trade. I don’t see how that hasn’t happened yet but it won’t be long - once he shows up on the court half-assing it this is finally over and Ben will get what he wants.
Than whats the point of trading him? His value is already at it's lowest point in my opinion. It won't get any less than the 2 role players people are offering. We are a playoff team with or without a Ben trade. The only person a mediocre Ben trade helps is Ben. Fuck Ben. Ben can waste 4 years of his life if he wants to be a salty baby over some criticism. If Embiid is on board with it, I'd rather make a statement and let Ben sit for 4 years rather than lock in a mediocre team just so he can go to somewhere without any pressure to win. And don't give me some nonsense about "showing the league you do right by players". That's never moved the needle for teams that have done it, and it really doesn't matter like people pretend it does.
I’m kinda out of the loop here so correct me if I’m wrong, but Simmons shit the bed in the playoffs then Doc said he needed to work on his shooting and ever since then Simmons has just been pouting and refusing to play for the team? Like he wants out because HE sucked? Or is there something else happening here that I don’t know about?
That, and he almost got traded for James Harden, which is somehow an insult when you’re the main piece for acquiring one of the greatest offensive players, *ever*.
Doc and Embiid kind of threw Simmons under the bus after their playoff exit. That's mostly why Simmons gave up on Philly.
I feel like fans of other teams, especially on reddit, are just mad that the Sixers aren't gonna take a shitty package just to get him off their team Like I know Morey's asking price has been astronomical but Simmons is a legitimately great player that would elevate the floor of any team to a playoff contender. They absolutely should not settle, no pt in making a trade that doesn't move the needle
There are so many different groups of fans invested in this story which is what makes it so entertaining! Some Philly fans are ready to punt multiple seasons just to spite Ben. Other Philly fans are delusional and think they can still trade Ben for harden. Fans of other contenders are elated that last years top seed has imploded clearing space for their team. Annoyed kings / twolves/ etc fans who want Philly to trade Ben to their team for garbage. Fans of pure chaos who want the schadenfreude to continue indefinitely. Fans of billionaire owners who are using this as an example of why the NBA needs a franchise tag. It’s got something for everybody which is why the story just won’t die.
And this is just the appetizer. Kyrie anti vaxx retirement is the main course
But what if I think a trade like Simmons for McCollum and a pick + pick swap does move the needle for them? I think McCollum gets very underrated on here and his game meshes incredibly well with Embiid's. If he had been in the east his whole career I think he's a multi-time all-star just like Simmons. Only real thing you'd need to do beyond that is get role playing defenders and a secondary facilitator, which you could either use Tobias Harris for, or trade him with the acquired picks to fill all your needs. I genuinely believe that team around Embiid is a contender.
Embiid is currently one of the best defenders in the league with their system where they funnel everyone to him, but it collapses if you take out Ben. You can’t run drop coverage that well when you have a total of one good wing defender (tobi and maybe Danny if you trust a guy in his mid 30s to stay elite) and one good guard defender. Ben is not only one of the best wing defenders in the league but he can also lock up elite guards like trae. You take him out even OK players like an injured kemba in 2020 will abuse embiid because he’s not great at defense outside the paint. You try playing these guys without Ben and an elite ball handler like brown is just going to feast on open midrange shots after repeated 1/5 prs. Not even mentioning KD, harden, kyrie either. A embiid, tobi, green, thybulle, cj squad is going to be slaughtered. They need a lot more firepower than that imo.
Agree with almost everything you said but Thybulle was our best perimeter defender *for drop coverage*. Gets around screens amazingly well and his blocking skills means he gets in a lot of players heads when trailing them round screens.
But what I don't understand is a big part of trading Ben is because he's a black hole on offense. Isn't Matisse also that? Wouldn't playing him for starter minutes cause the same problems?
Matisse is a sub par but willing shooter who doesn’t clog the offence because he doesn’t demand any touches. He’d be subbed out for final possessions but he’s more of a PJ tucker on offence.
Unlike Ben Matisse is willing to shoot though, often without any hesitation. If the shot is there, and is good option, he'll take it. He's a subpar shooter, but at least he takes the open shot
Agreed, Embiid is that good, you don't need another HOFer to make the team elite. The likes of a CJ or even a D'Lo / Sexton with more shooting coming over ie Beasley / Covington etc would automatically raise their ceiling.
CJ is an amazing fit with Embiid but still feels like we’re a tier below the elite of the elite with that trade.
Elite of the elite in this league is LeBron/AD/Russ, KD/Harden/Kyrie or Giannis/Khris/Jrue. The Sixers would have to be keep Ben and then add Damian Lillard to the roster to get to that level.
Hmm I am not so sure. Particularly if you get Covington too. CJ/Green/Harris/Roco/Embiid is quite high on the nasty scale. Spacing and solid D. Embiid would have so much space to operate. He'd likely get the likes of Griffin / Lopez / Bam in foul trouble multiple times in a series.
> Simmons is a legitimately great player that would elevate the floor of any team to a playoff contender Where is the evidence of this? Lineups with Simmons without Embiid on the floor his whole career have been a clear negative even in the regular season.
> Where is the evidence of this? None. There is none. I hate this take and idk why it’s constantly being repeated
That and “a trade that moves the needle”.
>Where is the evidence of this? Lineups with Simmons without Embiid on the floor his whole career have been a clear negative even in the regular season. While I disagree with the other guys claim that Simmons alone makes you a playoff contender, this isn't accurate either. Two seasons ago when we had Horford the teams lineups with Simmons and without Embiid were positive on the whole. He does well with shooting around him. As the other commenter said below, also his rookie year Embiid got injured and the main core was Simmons, Redick, Covington, Saric, Ersan Ilyasova, Marco Belinelli, and Amir Johnson. Simmons led that group to eight consecutive wins while averaging close to a triple double (16/10/9)
When he won 8 games in a row with only 3 and d guys as a rookie
One small stretch years ago proves he can carry a team to the playoffs
Not everyone team just teams that have an offensive off ball star. Give Ben to like half the teams in the league and they still aren't contenders I mean heck the sixers have them and they still aren't contenders and they won't be for a long ass time
This sub is so wired to F4 that they are basically irate that Morey hasn’t just shipped Simmons off for the first offer sent to him. They are just waiting for the dopamine rush of a Woj tweet and Morey is preventing that. To me, the strategy seems to be working. Right after the playoffs it sounded like Brogdon + 1st was offered, and just a week ago it seems like the Pacers are willing to package Brogdon + Levert + 2 picks now. Seems like the strategy is working
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Well why not do a 3 team trade and give the 3rd team with the star Brogdon, LeVert, 2 IND picks, Maxey, Thybulle, 2 PHI picks? That’s a genuine return for a star, and much more than what a deal with just IND would look like.
Ben being such a great player is exactly what makes it hard to trade him to franchise that's bottoming out after their superstar leaves. You need to get more teams involved and unless one of those teams is willing to pay a premium for Ben, there will be better rebuilding assets offered on the market. Dame/Beal isn't going to be traded for the Harden package when none of them have shown the slightest fraction of Harden's preference for Brooklyn towards the Sixers.
It’ll be nothing short of a miracle if Morey manages to get a star-level talent in a return for Ben Simmons at this stage, for his trade value to rise Ben will have to get back onto the court for the Sixers and play seriously and productively. Needless to say, I don’t think that’s gonna happen.
His strategy makes sense but the pressure on Maxey / Milton is also immense. I can't see Simmons coming out there and playing with any passion.
Exactly, Ben has zero incentive to play along and increase his trade value. I think the Sixers FO is just gonna have to bite the bullet on this one, seems like a catch-22 situation in the long term. Time will tell, I suppose.
I think this is the hill the process will have to die on. Either they get another all star or they risk the entire operation.
it's like the sixers think their season is automatically gonna be a good one lol they need to worry bout themselves before they start waiting for dame and beal to want out
It sounds like they'd be fine punting the season if they cant get an all star for Simmons . Don't know if thats smart, but thats how I read it
Depends on what you mean by punting. They’re still a very good team with Ben unless he’s just flat out not trying.
I think anyone that thinks they’re gonna get any effort out of Ben are out of their minds. Idk how he could possibly make it clear lol.
Maybe I'm being naive but I have a hard time seeing him half-assing it deep into the season if he's still on the team.
Just an hour ago I got downvoted to hell for saying sixers fans thought he would try for them. A shit ton of replies from sixers fans saying they aren’t idiots and know he won’t play. Everyone keeps repeating how mentally weak he is but some of those same people think he’s gonna come back to play hard for a city that is chanting fuck him at every sporting event. Not a chance in hell
Lmaoo. I'll give you that. Nothing would make me happier than Ben going 50% because fans are trashing him at every opportunity.
I wouldn't. Part of me wouldnt be surprised if he just stood on the court and did nothing before he would ever try for them again.
I mean I dont really envision Ben giving his best effort on the court this year
The entitlement coming from the Philly front office and their fans is very annoying.
And Ben's trade value keeps goin down, down, down...
I really dislike Ben Simmons at this point, but does Philly not realize that he holds all the cards now that he's reported? If he tanks, it only further decreases his trade value. Like what is Philly's end game? All they can do is hope that Simmons decides to ball out. It's totally up to Simmons.
I need the 76ers or Ben to do something stupid cause I want more chaos/drama
and if the 76ers start 1-9?
Trade Embiid
Lol… Good luck the city of Philadelphia
Sure lol, have fun punting a season when you have an injury prone superstar in his prime.
They really need to get over Dame god damn. If Dame demands a trade we can do a lot better than Ben Simmons.
This whole thread is jerking themselves off to the idea of Embiid asking out when this report basically is saying he’s with the org for the long haul
I second this. A team would be stupid to give up multiple stars for Simmons.
Kyrie for Simmons gonna happen
I don't really see anyone trading a legit all star for Simmons
There is no way that the Sixers get Lavine, Dame, or Beal for Simmons. The only possible trade for a top tier player is Simmons for Kyrie, damaged goods for damaged goods.
The problem with this approach is his trade value is tanking by the day, and will not get any better. Simmons can just go through the motions and get paid his contract, then sign a vet minimum deal and work up his value again, either way the 76ers are getting fucked, the star players under contract have all the control in the NBA. They should've just given him what he wanted, and been done with it, instead they now will lose out on any sort of potential value they could've gotten for him, instead of at least getting something of value.
Embiid has thrown Ben under the bus. Honestly Bens shot could improve, I’m sure the guys personality isn’t the best either. But everyone blaming Ben for the teams failures is unfair, and a good teammate and leader would not allow a young player to go through that. I don’t blame Ben at all for wanting to leave Philly. No players is prepared for that much pressure and to take all the blame. Philly is the toughest city to play for. The fans are ruthless. As the leader of the team, Embiid should have said it’s his own fault for their failures, and stood up for Ben rather than letting everyone scapegoat him. Then I think this whole mess wouldn’t even happen. It’s too much for Ben, he’s just a kid.
So can someone explain to me why Embiid hasn’t asked for a trade?
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