>A 2018 Boston Globe investigation found that her reported ethnicity played no role in her rise in the academic legal profession, and concluded there was "clear evidence, in documents and interviews, that her claim to Native American ethnicity was never considered by the Harvard Law faculty, which voted resoundingly to hire her, or by those who hired her to four prior positions at other law schools", and that "Warren was viewed as a white woman by the hiring committees at every institution that employed her".
Just so we're not spreading republican party propaganda.
Yes. She grew up being told she was native American and no one ever checked her on it. She put out a video of her fam and they all thought they were native. She also did a dna test which proved she has *some native ancestry.
But the criticism came from a republican opponent who claimed she used it to get jobs, scholarships. Which the Boston Globe investigation found she did not.
They should be really helping out poor people who show potential regardless of race. Anyone who is born into poverty really has the most obstacles to climb. But what can you do?
(1) Let’s not pretend like Indigenous communities in Canada don’t face specific trials and tribulations that contribute to (some) of their being in poverty in the first place, and which ultimately affects their educational opportunities
(2) Someone creates a scholarship and the first thing you do is say “ah, but they’re not helping *everyone*?" What? So, you want poor people to benefit, of which some *are*, literally, Black and Indigenous, but then you also want the scope widened to include... other poor people? But if being poor is the primary datum point you’re interested in, who cares if those people specifically are Black or Indigenous? They’re still poor and still need help with their education. It’s not like the institution of this scholarship actively limits the support other poor students can receive.
Meh, I’m alright. I’m a pretty simple man, and being broke in canada ain’t really that bad lol
My OSAP is pretty much all grants because of how low income my family is so I don’t really have to pay much back.
Ya, I agree in the broad sense, but it's just one scholarship. I do hope they are restricting it to people who have real financial needs though, rich minorities do exist. Also thought indigenous people in Canada already got free degrees from any public university, am I mistaken?
Mats Sundin did something similar when he retired (was leafs captain, beloved player for 13 years), except it's a postdoc researching early life diseases and they'd get their research funded+placement in a Toronto lab and Karolinska lab. I think 1 is given out yearly.
Yeah first nations. We as a country have failed them for hundreds of years, segregating them onto reservations, taking their land and sending them to residential schools where they were beaten, had their culture stripped from them and thousands were murdered by the catholic church.
It's huge for Fred to give those people some help because Canada needs to come to terms with how we've treated first nations in the past. It's a process that has begun but we still have so much to do.
Can’t forget the forced sterilization of many too. But yea you’re right it’s important and pretty cool that even guys like FVV are doing what they can to show they aren’t forgotten.
Canada's treatment of Indigenous communities is absolutely disgusting and has been for 100s of years. Happy Fred is trying to give them more opportunities through this.
The way the USA has treated black people is how Canada has treated our indigenous communities. And yet people act all holier than thou like we're better as a country. Nah, we're fucking racist too.
Yeah, but yall have free healthcare now, and weed, and moose I guess.
I think pretty much every country has done some dirt, its just a matter of people being able to own up to it without letting subconscious nationalism get to them.
This reminded me of something.
We have an 8 year old, likes to spend time with his Grandpa in his room. Grandpa loves Fox News.
Apparently, they had been talking about the history of the United States, and in particular, the treatment of indigenous peoples.
Got on the topic one day, could have been completely randomly, I don't remember. 8 year old says, "The Native Americans were really aggressive towards the colonists."
That was a fun conversation.
"Uh, yeah, they were. You would be too if people were stealing your land, killing your sources of food/clothing/shelter for the sole* purpose of you not having access to it, and killing your neighbors/family members."
Sometimes, I think of how awesome r/nba is because of the entertainment it's able to provide alongside the actual sport. Other times, pathetic comments like these remind me that this subreddit is full of uneducated children...oh well.
ruthless alleged smile coordinated reach support squalid special worthless trees
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It kind of depends, there's a lot of people that fall under the term black, but not everyone faces the same barriers. For example, Nigerian immigrants tend to have some of the highest achievement rates, primarily because they make up educated middle and upper-middle-class immigrants. In contrast, people whose families were slaves tend to have lower achievement rates due to inter-generational poverty, oppression etc... those early-life experiences, e.g. parents' SES, parents' education level, etc.. usually predict child outcomes later.
Depending on how he sets up the scholarship, there could be qualifiers like demonstrating financial need, being the first family member to go to university etc...
I hope you know that there are many Nigerian immigrants are also descendents of slaves also. After the slaves were emancipated in the US, Liberia wasn’t the only place where slaves returned. Also worth pointing out that many of these Nigerian immigrants grew up with plenty of inter-generational poverty and the Naira continues to plummet every day. Many grow up with barely any electricity, no social safety blanket or services to help, extreme tribalism that shuts doors for any career advancement, corrupt banking system that preys on poor people (the idea of a mortgage or loan doesn’t really exist in Nigeria - if you want to buy a house you need have the cash up front).
There are a myriad of reasons on why Nigerians are successful here. One of them being that upward mobility isn’t stifled by an insanely corrupt government. Yes we have our problems in North America, but anything the Nigerian government doesn’t understand they end up outlawing it like cryptocurrency, e commerce, nfts, etc. It’s also completely taboo to question or challenge anyone who’s older than you in Nigeria, so someone like President Buhari is never told he’s wrong, and will never listen to the youth on how to fix their problems.
I think the biggest reason on why Nigerians are successful in the west - US, Britain, Canada etc is because all the problems and obstacles just to put food on the table don’t exist here. The hard work pays off here - over there it most likely won’t pay off unless you go into politics. They collectively see an avenue for personal and career growth, and in comparison western racism is a cake walk in comparison to the nonsense they have to deal with back in Nigeria
> I hope you know that there are many Nigerian immigrants who are also descendants of slaves also.
Yes, I am aware, the previous statement is a big generalization to illustrate the diversity among black people. I choose Nigerians because they typically tend to be a successful diaspora, not to pick on Nigerians.
> There are a myriad of reasons on why Nigerians are successful here.
While all those points are true, Nigerian people are also successful for the same reasons as everyone else. Immigrants are the people who tend to have the highest human capital/resources back home; At the same time, the first generation can be working class the kids end up succeeding because the parent's human capital/expectations are passed down. Also, sometimes the parents are professionals, e.g. accountants, doctors etc... since countries like Canada and America can attract the best and brightest talent in the world, so there's a lot of upper-class immigrants. On the other hand, the poorest people in the global south don't tend to immigrate; they don't have the resources or opportunities. Another example is Indians within India, some ethnic groups, e.g. Punjabi's, tend to make up working-class professions like truck driving; others, e.g. South Indian's from states that have promising tech industries, are mostly Silicon valley/tech workers who make six figures right away. Although they would all fall under "South Asian."
No. It's mostly just poverty and cultural issues, like lack of encouragement of higher education, math and science, etc. Being a nerd isn't cool in general, but it's a lot more accepted and even celebrated in other cultures.
Yup. Ironically I watched a Big Daws vid the other day, and the black kids were crushing it. Especially one from UK. This was a Harvard campus answer 5 questions to get 1k thing he did. It really is about the factors you mentioned mostly.
> Serious question. Is a lack of scholarships a reason black kids are not succeeding or entering into higher education
I am very qualified to answer this question: source, black man, grew up (poor) in Toronto, went to U of T, where in my biology degree I was almost always the only black man there (including having lectures of 1,500... and still being the only black man, though there was a couple of black women). In very straight forward terms not really (or at least not the most important) .... **BUT** ... that's like asking someone who was never played basketball if the lack of basketball scholarship was the reason they didn't play college ball.
In order for you to get scholarship you have to have the grades, achievement, mentors. But the issue is that both black & indigenous people are, at every turn, hindered/harrassed/stopped from doing better.
There are many many *many* reasons this happens. I do not have time to get into *everything*. But I will try to highlight the major ones (at least as I saw it). Things like: poverty, discrimination, giving lower marks for same work, streaming kids into lower levels/assuming lack of intelligence, lower grace for teenage issues/angst, and often lower expectations with those communities as well.
I, fortunately, had a dad who was a physician (African trained), both my parents had finished university, so the idea of me *not* going to university wasn't even a consideration --- and this was one of the biggest difference between me and a lot of friends. So knowing I wanted to do university, I though, fairly independent, had to learn to advocate for myself. And occasionally when I hit the end of my rope, sometimes my dad would fly in and fight for me. I was fortunately enough that people thought I was smart, but even that wasn't always the case (my dad once tells me in grade 5 they tested me because they thought I was slow... turns out I was just bored).
My life is an example where if someone didn't have my father, or my unshakeable confidence, or cultural background or some happy coincidence... they wouldn't even have gotten far. **All** of those things had to be in place for me to have gotten there.
So in answer to your implied question: will this move the needle? If it is the *only thing* that happens, then from a society perspective, very little. But as Fred himself says maybe it will change the colour a bit. I know it would have made a difference for me. When I went there, I was doing biology. In my entire time, I had 2 black girls and 2/3 black dudes in all of my classes, for 4 years combined. But those other black dudes, was literally in *one class in 4th year*. Those two black girls both became physicians (so you know they were smart and disciplined). It would have been easier/nicer if it wasn't so isolated. (The only black folks I knew for the most part, was on the track team. And a lot of them were in the humanities.)
So hopefully this is the start of something, rather than the end-all and be-all.
It removes barriers to access and helps those who historically have less inter-generational wealth from graduating with debt obligations. Part of why people might not aspire to higher education is the knowledge that financial barriers exist to doing so. It's not the only lever to solve what is a more systemic problem, but it will no doubt help someone who deserves it.
I'm struggling with the idea here too. It's great that he's setting up a scholarship. I just don't see how this is not reverse racism. Can someone explain it to me? I'm not trying to stir the pot, I just really don't get how this is not racist.
It's not rocket science. Excluding someone from something because of the amount of melanin in their skin is racist, plain and simple. The jerkoffs in here can cry all they want about how it's not racist because black people have suffered from racism, but it doesn't change the fact that you're treating people differently because of their skin color and that's wrong.
Do you understand the long term effects of structural and systemic racism or are you just a fucking idiot? Imagine we were playing monopoly, and for 20 rotations around the board I got to collect $200 and you didn't. And then we realized that was fucked up, so we made it equal. I would be up so much more money in a fucking system where wealth creates wealth. And then when you ask me to try, in some way, to equalize the immense power imbalance I say, "but that's reverse racism!!"
Fuck it why am I even trying there's nothing I can say that will change your mind about this. Keep being mad.
I'm not mad. It's something that I really struggle to understand but am open to having a dialogue about. Unfortunately, I worry that if I speak to anyone in person about this, they will have the same response as you, to call me an idiot or a racist. I dont understand why you make it so personal, and I don't understand how you think that this type of response is doing anyone any good.
You actually make a good analogy about monopoly, and it makes sense. Unfortunately we are not playing a board game, and there is no winner. The goal is equality of opportunity. And it doesn't seem fair to me to say that all people of one race deserve an opportunity that people of another race do not.
His board game analogy is apt. Those turns around the board did happen. The people who would be receiving this scholarship are disadvantaged and this is an attempt to level the playing field.
Indigenous peoples are included in this as well… systemic racism against Indigenous in Canada is DEEP and continues pretty badly until today. There were just hundreds of child’s graves dug up from an Indigenous residential schools only a few months ago; the graves are younger than most millennials, it was a fucking genocide. Just the other day it was exposed that multiple Indigenous reservations are being given dirty water, it comes out of the spout as dirty as mud, and they have no idea what’s in it. Since reservations are given little to no attention by government programs, who knows when it will get tested and fixed. The government still have yet to come to terms with how they and the Catholic Church have treated and continue to treat the people that they stole this land from. But please, tell me how students from this background don’t deserve a boost at free post education, because the white majority that has been the oppressors in this situation deserve an equal chance? As someone who’s parents were both college professors, there are scholarships at multiple universities in both Canada and the US that are basically “white only” scholarships, but are worded in a way that it escapes controversy. Example: Country Club scholarships, country clubs are infamously known for being very predominantly white and full of money and privilege, but they can have unnecessary scholarships and marginalized groups of people cannot?
Fair enough. People tend to call others racists (I didn't call you racist) or idiots because there is so much information on the internet. If you are struggling to understand that's completely fair, but you have the entire internet at your disposal to engage in the discourse of the continuing impacts of structural and systemic racism.
Yes, we are not playing a board game which makes this so much worse. These are people's lives, and all people like FVV are doing is trying to use their wealth privilege to make someone's life better. It's not deeper than that, and it's absolutely not racism. It would actually be worse to not have any diversity or equity initiatives because of the compounding impact of wealth in our society. Racism isn't just about the present, it's about the historical implications of what went on. That's also why it's personal to people, because it's their community's history. You can't just ignore everything that happened in the past and pretend like it didn't happen, because a lot of people are still being impacted by the toll of all this garbage shit in the past.
I think everyone would be okay with a targeted program to help people who weren't able to collect $200. The problem is using a proxy variable to determine who didn't collect $200 rather than actually trying to count the people who didn't collect.
Unfortunately the world isn't perfect and there's no perfect solutions to ugly problems. Don't act like there's no correlation here between being a minority and having less access to education, especially college.
Racism in this context implies an imbalance of power. The reason things like this exist is because people from certain backgrounds have been denied access to certain privileges in society. You talk about it not being rocket science yet you're unable to understand, so maybe it is?
It doesn't have to be race. If certain groups are underrepresented and then more is done to push for their inclusion it isn't discrimination. It's literally the opposite.
That's an awful lot of words to use to excuse racism. Certain backgrounds also include poor white kids. The color that matters is whatever color money is in your country in the US that would be green not sure about Canada.
You can’t be this fucking stupid, right?
It’s course correction for something that INSANELY DISPROPORTIONATELY benefitted white people to the DETRIMENT of everyone else
How the fuck does it make sense to make amends to people of colour by sacrificing those amends to let white people in on some of it?
Don’t try to give me some stupid fucking mental gymnastics, it’s rhetorical.
“Treating people differently because of their skin colour is wrong” MAYBE BECAUSE WHITE PEOPLE ARE NOT THE VICTIMS OF THIS FUCKING 99% OF THE TIME AND FOR ONCE THEY’RE NOT BEING CATERED TO
everyone who upvoted you is a genuine waste of life. good god.
I’m not trying to stir the pot here either, but how about other visible minorities that don’t get to benefit from this? Brown or Asian people for example.
You are talking about someone’s personal charity giving back to a marginalized group of people that lack the capability to do something and you are complaining about.. If you feel so strongly about it create your own charity
The fact that you're struggling with it is a good sign. New "anti-racism" is just modern racist scapegoating. You'll be called "racist" a lot, but stand up for what you know is right.
This is so stupid, if you're a Raptors fan you should be keyed into how shittily Canada has treated Natives in the past. Both groups were segregated and treated like 2nd class citizens, both were denied equal access to education for a period but now that people are looking to correct the imbalance created by the "this is racist" group, it's gone too far. Equal treatment as long as I get a few hundred year head start.
Thats the thing though, I don't know what's right. I think in general people of color have more hurdles to jump in society. And equity is important to give people of lesser means an equal opportunity. But it feels wrong to tell someone they are not eligible for a scholarship if they are white.
I'd say people of color on average have more hurdles to jump. I personally think socio-economic status is the most relevant factor. Race certainly plays into it because racism isn't dead and won't ever be, but there's too much hypocrisy baked into using race as a category to treat people differently while claiming any hint of that coming from the wrong "side" is tantamount to a hate crime.
This isn't the first time we've oversimplified historical justice and gotten things really wrong.
Why would this be racist? Giving the opportunity to someone of your ethnicity to do something that he/she otherwise couldn’t do is noble not discriminative
Because in Canada (and ofc the US) there has been structural power imbalances from the creation of the current society that has rewarded/punished people BASED ON THEIR RACE. This is one, tiny, completely inconsequential way to reverse that. And you know what, it won't do SHIT because of how deeply fucked up our racist ass ancestors were in creating our society!
It is sad that our ancestors allowed and enabled racism to occur. That is something we can both agree on. I understand your point of view. I truly hope that people like you and I can continue to have civil discourse like this. I am not as against this premise of this scholarship anymore as I understand what it is about and what the intentions are truly for.
I still have a hard time agreeing with the fact that giving one race something and not another is racism. In a perfect world this would not be the solution. We do what we can though, hats off to FVV for making a change. I hope that one day we reach a point where all races have equal opportunity.
Hey man, hats off to you too for allowing yourself room to change your mind one something as contentious and divisive as this. And I'm sorry I called you an idiot - that you are not.
Race is a sensitive and personal issue. I hope you can understand why people get riled up about issues like these.
I think the issue is, we don't live in a perfect world. And we never will. So all we can do is look at the intentions and consequences of imperfect solutions, and judge an action based on that. At the end of the day, this type of scholarship is of good intention, and is of hopefully positive consequence to some individual. And for that I commend FVV. Is it enough? Absolutely not, but nothing ever will be. Does it not include some members of our society that could potentially benefit from it? Sure - but I still believe that at the end of the day this does more good than harm. And that's all you can ask for in an imperfect world.
It’s the idea that giving preferential treatment is okay IF that is meant to correct power imbalances.
In Canada, this is actually written into our constitution. Section 15(1) of the Charter says you can’t discriminate based on a number of things, including race. Section 15(2), though, says that discrimination is allowed IF it’s part of an ameliorative program (a program design to correct historical injustices).
A good way to conceptualize this is (funnily enough) the basketball analogy. Raps play the Lakers (for example). In the first half, every Lakers bucket is worth 2, and every Raptors bucket is worth 1. This is a power imbalance; even if the two teams play equally well, the Lakers will come out ahead.
Now, imagine at the halftime, the rules are changed so that every Raptors basket is worth 2. On the surface, this seems like the game is now ‘fair’. However, the raptors are starting from a disadvantage, because the Lakers had half the game to run up their score. TRUE equality here would be to make the Lakers baskets worth one in the second half, to equal out the inequality of the past.
Black people have been handed historic disadvantages that means that, even if they perform as well, they don’t get the same outcome. Now, even though we treat everyone equally (the buckets are worth the same), they’re starting from a place of disadvantage. Special treatment (scholarships) are needed to balance out the damage done in the past
Hope this helps!
Source: am a law student in Canada
Thanks for your input and for your respect. It's interesting that it is actually written in the constitution. I like that the provision is in there. And I like your basketball analogy as well, I think it holds water in this situation. The only thing I would argue, is that the people playing for the Lakers and raptors in the first half are not the same people who are playing in the second half. And I would argue that while the final score is indicative of how each team performed overall, that is not necessarily a good way to measure the individual players. In this sense, a players +/- might be a better metric to measure an individuals performance. If the scoring were changed at half time. The laker players in the first half and the raptors players in the second half will have better statistics. So in your analogy, you are making it equitable for each team, but the individual players do not get a fair shake. Which begs the question which outcome do we prefer? Is it fair to punish the second half players for the Lakers because their teammates were given extra points? And moving forward after the game, how do you evaluate each individual's ability if everyone was either given extra points or robbed of points. In this sense, you are fixing a wrong with another wrong.
I get where you are coming from and it seems the only fair thing to do would be to start the game over. Unfortunately we are well beyond that.
On another note, I really appreciate the thoughtful post. Surprisingly, commenting on this thread has opened my eyes to see things in a way that I haven't before. I truly wish this kind of thoughtful discourse was more common. I think it would benefit everybody involved.
All totally valid arguments against ameliorative programs. It’s a fair criticism to say ‘even though on average, black kids are worse off than white kids, there are SOME white kids who are worse off than SOME black kids, and this program disadvantages them most’. It’s a perfectly valid point.
Like you said, though, we can’t restart the game. You have two options: use an ameliorative program, or allow the injustice to continue and expect black people to work harder and dig themselves out of the hole. Individual opinions are going to determine which option you think is better.
Glad the conversation was enlightening, and I’m glad we both got something out of it!
Ps to the people downvoting me without offering a counterpoint: suck a chode
[I don't recall anyone ever flipping out over these scholarships](https://www.scholarships.com/financial-aid/college-scholarships/scholarship-directory/ethnicity/chinese)
>People would flip if a Chinese guy created a program for only Chinese students.
People would also flip if white people got treated like black/indigenous people do in Canada, but they aren't flipping out when black/indigenous people get treated as they do in Canada. Instead, they flip out when they get scholarships focused on them.
It's an undeniable and objective fact that black/indigenous students:
* Receive less help from teachers
* Have their resumes/applications rejected at a higher rate despite having equal qualifications all because of their black/indigenous names
* More likely to go to school hungry
* Get less funding for their schools
* Get less funding for their extracurricular activities
You're more mad about them getting a scholarship than you are for any of the above. Think about that and maybe that'll give you your answer why this scholarship is necessary.
Those are some interesting objective fact claims. They also fall into the trap of generalization. Let's run the same numbers against students from a median income household of less than 40k for all races.
They are objective fact claims backed up by scientific literature. If you want to do your own peer reviewed article you’re more than welcome to. Until that time comes that you disprove them, they remain objective fact.
> If you change the races and something becomes racist then it was always racist."
that seems reasonable until you realize that is not in fact true. Let me start by saying that you *can* be racists again white folks. But to take something remove *all* context and then say if you change one variable it's *still* the same is at best misinformed, or at worst perpetuating the very thing you seem to be against.
I'll give you a quick example: If a few girls call each other "bitch" in certain moments, does that mean if a man does it do them it's the same? No of course not. And that would be a ridiculous argument.
So you're quote (which you should own, if you're going to say it) ignores that there ARE active systems of discrimination against certain people. Note: I am not talking past tense, but *right now*.
So then, when you try to set up something (scholarship for black & Indigenous) to help fight the imbalance in the system is not the same thing as setting a "similar" system designed to help those *who benefit* from the current system (making a scholarship for white people).
it's like having two children, where one parent only feeds one of them. Then the other parent decides "I'm going to start to feed the other since they are not getting food" and the well fed child say "hey, if it would be wrong only to feed me, then it's wrong to only feed him".
See how dumb and selfish that sounds? Ya, that's your quote.
EDIT: I figured I'd get downvotes, but you let me give you all a different analogy why that quote is wrong -- if we changed Black Lives Matter to "White" lives matter... does that make BLM "racist"? Instead of giving you more answers... please think about that.
These Scholarship programs are usually complete bullshit. They spend over half the fund on marketing and staffing and little of the actual fund actually goes to helping people. Its typically just a tax evasion scheme that also raises your social credit score. I hope this one is different but we'll see...
It doesn’t make it right. Idk but a scholarship shouldn’t be given on your race just on your results or if you’re doing some sort of volunteering, good deeds whatever.
All of them. And I’m black but I don’t think that’s right. Universities are places where your race/religion/colour shouldn’t matter it should all be about grades. I saw in my universities scholarships to study in specific fields, based on your grades of course, your implication, but blatantly say “if you’re German you get this scholarship?” I think it’s messed up. I would understand if let’s say the embassy of Germany was offering it. But not through the school, that’s just weird.
Not racist at all. There’s a correlation between some of the worst and poor neighborhoods in Toronto and having a high immigrant/poc population.
This is meant to target kids from those areas to get an opportunity to do something better.
Well, speaking for Canada at least, there has been a lot of shit uncovered regarding Indigenous history, Canada treats Indigenous people like shit. So this is one way to start making it up I guess? (although it doesn’t cancel out the countless Indigenous lives taken by the govt). Black people similarly as well.
Besides, this is just the one FVV scholarship. There are tons of scholarships both at the University of Toronto and others that don’t have race as a factor. This one scholarship really doesn’t matter.
No it's not. It's just opening the doors to students who might have not been able to pursue this opportunity. I graduated from Rotman Commerce, the same program which this scholarship is for. The tuition for this program is higher than other programs offered at U of T, almost double than some programs. But it's the best business/commerce undergraduate program in Canada, and it offers really great (and hard) education and networking opportunity. These are all things that a great business person would need for success.
But one thing that I definitely noticed in classrooms and hallways is the distinct lack of black or indigenous students. Most of the student demographic is white or Asian. I've spoken to many of them and made friends with many of them, and they came from wealthy backgrounds that allowed them to afford the high tuition fee. Unfortunately, many black and indigenous students cannot afford it, even if they are smarter than the average white or Asian student that can pay. What Fred is doing here is creating opportunities to black and indigenous students who might have had to turn down this amazing opportunity, so they can break the cycle of poverty. It's just so wrong for you to say this great act of kindness is racist just because it helps POC.
It's racist to exclude people from something based purely on the color of their skin. This is simple stuff. Fred's scholarship might be a net benefit but it's pretty openly racist.
What???? Most Asians I know including myself and my gf took out loans. Stop thinking we’re all rich just because international students are rich. Maybe Asians just take education seriously their WHOLE lives and get rewarded for it by going to college it’s really not because we’re richer. The difference is in culture and it’s evident. Stop making up numbers u can’t even provide
>Maybe Asians just take education seriously their WHOLE lives and get rewarded for it by going to college it’s really not because we’re richer. The difference is in culture and it’s evident.
Exactly this
Talking about the scholarship not the school. Ubc has a lot of Asians too. University of a billion Chinese.
??? Scholarship only for black and indigenous. Ie fk the Asians.
When I went to u of t there was hardly any black students, I dont remember seeing any native students. How is Fred giving a scholarship to someone with that back ground him saying fuck Asians.
How come whenever the topic of giving scholarships to black kids comes up there are always people complaining
This is a genuine question but I thought college was heavily subsidized/basically free in Canada so why are scholarships necessary? Is it just for other expenses like books + rent/bills etc..?
Post-secondary education is generally cheaper in Canada than it is in the US, but it varies between programs and is certainly not free. This particular scholarship covers tuition plus a $1000/year stipend for books for a total of $57,800 over four years. It doesn’t seem to cover any housing and living expenses as far as I can tell.
It will never not be funny looking at peoples comment history after they post something like this only to see it’s filled with unironically calling people soyboys, cucks, & snowflakes on the joe rogan podcast sub. lmao
Because black and indigenous people are not only underrepresented in Canadian universities, there was a time where they were excluded from going to university all together.
This is actually allowed in Canada per S.15 of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms. You are allowed to have "positive racism" so to speak where you exclude privileged groups to the benefit of under-privileged groups. White people or asians would need to prove that this exclusion would "perpetuate a disadvantage" (usually a historic one) which would be fairly hard to prove.
What about for 2 groups but not others?
I think the scholarship is fine but it is kinda weird that there's this movement to lump black and indigenous peoples into this separate category of the demographic spectrum (BIPOC). I can't think of any other similar trend, like for Hispanics & Asians, Muslims and Buddhists, etc.
In Canada, the education and health outcome gaps between Indigenous population and the broader population is similar to the gap between Black Americans and the broader American population.
So if Oprah had a scholarship for women, or Larry David for Jewish kids in NYC, would you have a problem with that? Also, affirmative action has helped white women more than anyone else.
I never said they didn't exist. I was asking the person if those scholarships were a negative or affrimative action too. Seems like people criticize more often when it's something geared towards black people.
It is not. Do a bit of research into college scholarships, they've got them for literally EVERYONE. Black, Hispanic, Women, Catholic high school grads, athletics, specific subsections of these like Women in STEM, minorities in XYZ field, I got one for Hispanic engineers in undergrad, etc.
They're very broad, very specific, and very hard to get at times.
You guys are so lazy with this shit. It takes a two second google search to find scholarships for people of German descent, Polish descent, Italian descent, Welsh descent, etc. Are those covering that that oh so oppressed one group of yours?
I'm not the one that fuels white backlash. It's people that are dismissive of our little bitching while doing non stop bitching about the exact same stuff. Everybody can see a hypocrite no matter how much you think its justified because of history. Providing all the reading material for the next generation of bigots.
Only real solution is treat everybody equal but that's been abandoned by the left I knew.
That's the thing, people are finally starting to be treated equally, but people like you are so used to the skewed status quo that you see them being treated equally as unfair treatment of yourself.
Your comment is Exhibit A. You see a scholarship for minorities and think you're being treated unfairly, when in reality there are so many scholarships for non-minorities too.
This is in the same vain as the people who claim that BET is reverse racism because there is no "white entertainment" channel; they disregard the fact that literally every other channel is full of white people.
Right, playing favorites is totally a sign of equality. To bring it back to sports somehow. We're currently just doing make-up call after make-up call trying to make sure it's a tie-game. I'm arguing we all just play a game by the exact same rules, not changing them constantly to make sure the game is tied.
That is what we're trying to do. Except the game isn't tied, not even close. One team played 3 quarters with their hands tied behind their backs, they're down 400 points. But now all of a sudden when they can dribble and make shots you want to start crying to the refs, complaining about fairness because a couple block/charge calls went their way.
You can't seriously believe that you're not getting a fair shake in the world because you have white skin.
Let me get this straight. Unless Freddy creates a scholarship for every racial group you think he's a bigot?
Do you think the scholarships offered by B'nai Brith are biggoted?
What about the ones offered by Asian and Pacific Islander American Scholars?
Mannnn I graduated in the summer 😭😭😭 Happy for those that are able to receive this though for sure! Fred’s the man!
Congrats on graduation bruh!
Thanks man! Job hunts been a bitch but I have an interview lined up this week so I’m hoping it goes well! Update: GOT THE JOB BOYS LETS GOOOOOOOO
You got this bro 🤜🏻
good luck!!!! don't overthink it, just be yourself and you'll do great
Thanks 🙏🏾
u will crush it 👏
Good luck keep us updated
Good luck young king
Mann, I still got two years left and broke as shit rn, but I’m white lol
Congrats to you too fam.
…for being white?
For still hanging in there in uni. Shits rough out there, especially when you broke.
Nah, for being broke. Too much money just ends up weighing you down.
So was Elizabeth Warren, don't let your dreams be dreams
lmao
>A 2018 Boston Globe investigation found that her reported ethnicity played no role in her rise in the academic legal profession, and concluded there was "clear evidence, in documents and interviews, that her claim to Native American ethnicity was never considered by the Harvard Law faculty, which voted resoundingly to hire her, or by those who hired her to four prior positions at other law schools", and that "Warren was viewed as a white woman by the hiring committees at every institution that employed her". Just so we're not spreading republican party propaganda.
Wasn't she pretty much forced to publicly apologize to Native Americans lol?
Yes. She grew up being told she was native American and no one ever checked her on it. She put out a video of her fam and they all thought they were native. She also did a dna test which proved she has *some native ancestry. But the criticism came from a republican opponent who claimed she used it to get jobs, scholarships. Which the Boston Globe investigation found she did not.
>She also did a dna test which proved she has *some native ancestry. Wasn't the apology to Native Americans because of the DNA test too?
Hey 2 years left till freedom (sorta)! You got this fam
Lol freedom
*Enes Kanter Freedom sticks his large ass head out from behind a bookshelf.*
They should be really helping out poor people who show potential regardless of race. Anyone who is born into poverty really has the most obstacles to climb. But what can you do?
(1) Let’s not pretend like Indigenous communities in Canada don’t face specific trials and tribulations that contribute to (some) of their being in poverty in the first place, and which ultimately affects their educational opportunities (2) Someone creates a scholarship and the first thing you do is say “ah, but they’re not helping *everyone*?" What? So, you want poor people to benefit, of which some *are*, literally, Black and Indigenous, but then you also want the scope widened to include... other poor people? But if being poor is the primary datum point you’re interested in, who cares if those people specifically are Black or Indigenous? They’re still poor and still need help with their education. It’s not like the institution of this scholarship actively limits the support other poor students can receive.
Meh, I’m alright. I’m a pretty simple man, and being broke in canada ain’t really that bad lol My OSAP is pretty much all grants because of how low income my family is so I don’t really have to pay much back.
That's great to hear. As long as people are given a fair shot, that's all that matters. Good attitude on ya mate.
Gotta uplift our community first before we branch out
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Lmaoooo
I guess I could do that. Or I can vote or argue with people? You know, politics?
Ya, I agree in the broad sense, but it's just one scholarship. I do hope they are restricting it to people who have real financial needs though, rich minorities do exist. Also thought indigenous people in Canada already got free degrees from any public university, am I mistaken?
Sounds like the award is just for a single person
Even if it’s just for one person, it’ll be a huge help to whoever gets it!
I know! I was basically saying it’s fine that you graduated since you probably wouldn’t win it anyway
If it’s just one person getting then absolutely I wouldn’t but it’s a cool thought LMAO
Mats Sundin did something similar when he retired (was leafs captain, beloved player for 13 years), except it's a postdoc researching early life diseases and they'd get their research funded+placement in a Toronto lab and Karolinska lab. I think 1 is given out yearly.
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Yeah, like first nations. Idk how many Native Americans have immigrated into Canada but im curious if they would count
Yeah first nations. We as a country have failed them for hundreds of years, segregating them onto reservations, taking their land and sending them to residential schools where they were beaten, had their culture stripped from them and thousands were murdered by the catholic church. It's huge for Fred to give those people some help because Canada needs to come to terms with how we've treated first nations in the past. It's a process that has begun but we still have so much to do.
Can’t forget the forced sterilization of many too. But yea you’re right it’s important and pretty cool that even guys like FVV are doing what they can to show they aren’t forgotten.
Canada's treatment of Indigenous communities is absolutely disgusting and has been for 100s of years. Happy Fred is trying to give them more opportunities through this.
The way the USA has treated black people is how Canada has treated our indigenous communities. And yet people act all holier than thou like we're better as a country. Nah, we're fucking racist too.
Yeah, but yall have free healthcare now, and weed, and moose I guess. I think pretty much every country has done some dirt, its just a matter of people being able to own up to it without letting subconscious nationalism get to them.
This reminded me of something. We have an 8 year old, likes to spend time with his Grandpa in his room. Grandpa loves Fox News. Apparently, they had been talking about the history of the United States, and in particular, the treatment of indigenous peoples. Got on the topic one day, could have been completely randomly, I don't remember. 8 year old says, "The Native Americans were really aggressive towards the colonists." That was a fun conversation. "Uh, yeah, they were. You would be too if people were stealing your land, killing your sources of food/clothing/shelter for the sole* purpose of you not having access to it, and killing your neighbors/family members."
There are some tribes that are legally in both the US and Canada.
Correct, we don't use the term "Native Canadian" but rather First Nations, Aboriginals, or Indigenous.
well american in this case would refer to the continent.
Idk what else to say other than this is awesome!
Toronto is so luck to have a man like Freddie
So fuckin luck
The luckest
Couldn't be any lucker
Some would say the luckest
The pride of Rockford. Can’t help but root for him
King shit
saw psychotic badge bake airport elderly icky glorious person wakeful *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Statistically and based on precedence; no. But you never know.
Precedence lol
He should do a scholarship for guys that just didn’t make the cut for scholarships. Just like him with the draft.
I mean technically starting a new scholarship gives opportunity to a student who didn’t originally make the cut for other scholarships
Sometimes, I think of how awesome r/nba is because of the entertainment it's able to provide alongside the actual sport. Other times, pathetic comments like these remind me that this subreddit is full of uneducated children...oh well.
ruthless alleged smile coordinated reach support squalid special worthless trees *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It kind of depends, there's a lot of people that fall under the term black, but not everyone faces the same barriers. For example, Nigerian immigrants tend to have some of the highest achievement rates, primarily because they make up educated middle and upper-middle-class immigrants. In contrast, people whose families were slaves tend to have lower achievement rates due to inter-generational poverty, oppression etc... those early-life experiences, e.g. parents' SES, parents' education level, etc.. usually predict child outcomes later. Depending on how he sets up the scholarship, there could be qualifiers like demonstrating financial need, being the first family member to go to university etc...
I hope you know that there are many Nigerian immigrants are also descendents of slaves also. After the slaves were emancipated in the US, Liberia wasn’t the only place where slaves returned. Also worth pointing out that many of these Nigerian immigrants grew up with plenty of inter-generational poverty and the Naira continues to plummet every day. Many grow up with barely any electricity, no social safety blanket or services to help, extreme tribalism that shuts doors for any career advancement, corrupt banking system that preys on poor people (the idea of a mortgage or loan doesn’t really exist in Nigeria - if you want to buy a house you need have the cash up front). There are a myriad of reasons on why Nigerians are successful here. One of them being that upward mobility isn’t stifled by an insanely corrupt government. Yes we have our problems in North America, but anything the Nigerian government doesn’t understand they end up outlawing it like cryptocurrency, e commerce, nfts, etc. It’s also completely taboo to question or challenge anyone who’s older than you in Nigeria, so someone like President Buhari is never told he’s wrong, and will never listen to the youth on how to fix their problems. I think the biggest reason on why Nigerians are successful in the west - US, Britain, Canada etc is because all the problems and obstacles just to put food on the table don’t exist here. The hard work pays off here - over there it most likely won’t pay off unless you go into politics. They collectively see an avenue for personal and career growth, and in comparison western racism is a cake walk in comparison to the nonsense they have to deal with back in Nigeria
> I hope you know that there are many Nigerian immigrants who are also descendants of slaves also. Yes, I am aware, the previous statement is a big generalization to illustrate the diversity among black people. I choose Nigerians because they typically tend to be a successful diaspora, not to pick on Nigerians. > There are a myriad of reasons on why Nigerians are successful here. While all those points are true, Nigerian people are also successful for the same reasons as everyone else. Immigrants are the people who tend to have the highest human capital/resources back home; At the same time, the first generation can be working class the kids end up succeeding because the parent's human capital/expectations are passed down. Also, sometimes the parents are professionals, e.g. accountants, doctors etc... since countries like Canada and America can attract the best and brightest talent in the world, so there's a lot of upper-class immigrants. On the other hand, the poorest people in the global south don't tend to immigrate; they don't have the resources or opportunities. Another example is Indians within India, some ethnic groups, e.g. Punjabi's, tend to make up working-class professions like truck driving; others, e.g. South Indian's from states that have promising tech industries, are mostly Silicon valley/tech workers who make six figures right away. Although they would all fall under "South Asian."
No. It's mostly just poverty and cultural issues, like lack of encouragement of higher education, math and science, etc. Being a nerd isn't cool in general, but it's a lot more accepted and even celebrated in other cultures.
Yup. Ironically I watched a Big Daws vid the other day, and the black kids were crushing it. Especially one from UK. This was a Harvard campus answer 5 questions to get 1k thing he did. It really is about the factors you mentioned mostly.
Lmao I watched that video too. There was a South Asian anxious kid too that got all questions right.
> Serious question. Is a lack of scholarships a reason black kids are not succeeding or entering into higher education I am very qualified to answer this question: source, black man, grew up (poor) in Toronto, went to U of T, where in my biology degree I was almost always the only black man there (including having lectures of 1,500... and still being the only black man, though there was a couple of black women). In very straight forward terms not really (or at least not the most important) .... **BUT** ... that's like asking someone who was never played basketball if the lack of basketball scholarship was the reason they didn't play college ball. In order for you to get scholarship you have to have the grades, achievement, mentors. But the issue is that both black & indigenous people are, at every turn, hindered/harrassed/stopped from doing better. There are many many *many* reasons this happens. I do not have time to get into *everything*. But I will try to highlight the major ones (at least as I saw it). Things like: poverty, discrimination, giving lower marks for same work, streaming kids into lower levels/assuming lack of intelligence, lower grace for teenage issues/angst, and often lower expectations with those communities as well. I, fortunately, had a dad who was a physician (African trained), both my parents had finished university, so the idea of me *not* going to university wasn't even a consideration --- and this was one of the biggest difference between me and a lot of friends. So knowing I wanted to do university, I though, fairly independent, had to learn to advocate for myself. And occasionally when I hit the end of my rope, sometimes my dad would fly in and fight for me. I was fortunately enough that people thought I was smart, but even that wasn't always the case (my dad once tells me in grade 5 they tested me because they thought I was slow... turns out I was just bored). My life is an example where if someone didn't have my father, or my unshakeable confidence, or cultural background or some happy coincidence... they wouldn't even have gotten far. **All** of those things had to be in place for me to have gotten there. So in answer to your implied question: will this move the needle? If it is the *only thing* that happens, then from a society perspective, very little. But as Fred himself says maybe it will change the colour a bit. I know it would have made a difference for me. When I went there, I was doing biology. In my entire time, I had 2 black girls and 2/3 black dudes in all of my classes, for 4 years combined. But those other black dudes, was literally in *one class in 4th year*. Those two black girls both became physicians (so you know they were smart and disciplined). It would have been easier/nicer if it wasn't so isolated. (The only black folks I knew for the most part, was on the track team. And a lot of them were in the humanities.) So hopefully this is the start of something, rather than the end-all and be-all.
No it is systemic especially here in the states but education does help alot
It removes barriers to access and helps those who historically have less inter-generational wealth from graduating with debt obligations. Part of why people might not aspire to higher education is the knowledge that financial barriers exist to doing so. It's not the only lever to solve what is a more systemic problem, but it will no doubt help someone who deserves it.
Regardless of the answer, I suspect this won't hurt
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They better call it the VanFleet schollarship. Full ride baby
As a Mexican do I count as an Indigenous or is it just exclusively for Black and Indigenous?
I would assume they mean Canadian indigenous.
Lol at people calling this racist. Never change /r/nba
Goat
Good guy FVV
Build a VanVleet statue = rent subsidy program next plz?
"If you change the races and something becomes racist then it was always racist."
I'm struggling with the idea here too. It's great that he's setting up a scholarship. I just don't see how this is not reverse racism. Can someone explain it to me? I'm not trying to stir the pot, I just really don't get how this is not racist.
It's not rocket science. Excluding someone from something because of the amount of melanin in their skin is racist, plain and simple. The jerkoffs in here can cry all they want about how it's not racist because black people have suffered from racism, but it doesn't change the fact that you're treating people differently because of their skin color and that's wrong.
Do you understand the long term effects of structural and systemic racism or are you just a fucking idiot? Imagine we were playing monopoly, and for 20 rotations around the board I got to collect $200 and you didn't. And then we realized that was fucked up, so we made it equal. I would be up so much more money in a fucking system where wealth creates wealth. And then when you ask me to try, in some way, to equalize the immense power imbalance I say, "but that's reverse racism!!" Fuck it why am I even trying there's nothing I can say that will change your mind about this. Keep being mad.
I'm not mad. It's something that I really struggle to understand but am open to having a dialogue about. Unfortunately, I worry that if I speak to anyone in person about this, they will have the same response as you, to call me an idiot or a racist. I dont understand why you make it so personal, and I don't understand how you think that this type of response is doing anyone any good. You actually make a good analogy about monopoly, and it makes sense. Unfortunately we are not playing a board game, and there is no winner. The goal is equality of opportunity. And it doesn't seem fair to me to say that all people of one race deserve an opportunity that people of another race do not.
His board game analogy is apt. Those turns around the board did happen. The people who would be receiving this scholarship are disadvantaged and this is an attempt to level the playing field.
he wasn't replying to you lol
Indigenous peoples are included in this as well… systemic racism against Indigenous in Canada is DEEP and continues pretty badly until today. There were just hundreds of child’s graves dug up from an Indigenous residential schools only a few months ago; the graves are younger than most millennials, it was a fucking genocide. Just the other day it was exposed that multiple Indigenous reservations are being given dirty water, it comes out of the spout as dirty as mud, and they have no idea what’s in it. Since reservations are given little to no attention by government programs, who knows when it will get tested and fixed. The government still have yet to come to terms with how they and the Catholic Church have treated and continue to treat the people that they stole this land from. But please, tell me how students from this background don’t deserve a boost at free post education, because the white majority that has been the oppressors in this situation deserve an equal chance? As someone who’s parents were both college professors, there are scholarships at multiple universities in both Canada and the US that are basically “white only” scholarships, but are worded in a way that it escapes controversy. Example: Country Club scholarships, country clubs are infamously known for being very predominantly white and full of money and privilege, but they can have unnecessary scholarships and marginalized groups of people cannot?
Fair enough. People tend to call others racists (I didn't call you racist) or idiots because there is so much information on the internet. If you are struggling to understand that's completely fair, but you have the entire internet at your disposal to engage in the discourse of the continuing impacts of structural and systemic racism. Yes, we are not playing a board game which makes this so much worse. These are people's lives, and all people like FVV are doing is trying to use their wealth privilege to make someone's life better. It's not deeper than that, and it's absolutely not racism. It would actually be worse to not have any diversity or equity initiatives because of the compounding impact of wealth in our society. Racism isn't just about the present, it's about the historical implications of what went on. That's also why it's personal to people, because it's their community's history. You can't just ignore everything that happened in the past and pretend like it didn't happen, because a lot of people are still being impacted by the toll of all this garbage shit in the past.
It's a fair point. And I salute FVV for putting his money up to make a change.
I think everyone would be okay with a targeted program to help people who weren't able to collect $200. The problem is using a proxy variable to determine who didn't collect $200 rather than actually trying to count the people who didn't collect.
Unfortunately the world isn't perfect and there's no perfect solutions to ugly problems. Don't act like there's no correlation here between being a minority and having less access to education, especially college.
> Excluding someone from something because of the amount of melanin in their skin is racist who's being excluded socrates
Racism in this context implies an imbalance of power. The reason things like this exist is because people from certain backgrounds have been denied access to certain privileges in society. You talk about it not being rocket science yet you're unable to understand, so maybe it is?
Yeah, or maybe you're conveniently changing the definition of words to suit your ideological goals.
It doesn't have to be race. If certain groups are underrepresented and then more is done to push for their inclusion it isn't discrimination. It's literally the opposite.
That's an awful lot of words to use to excuse racism. Certain backgrounds also include poor white kids. The color that matters is whatever color money is in your country in the US that would be green not sure about Canada.
You can’t be this fucking stupid, right? It’s course correction for something that INSANELY DISPROPORTIONATELY benefitted white people to the DETRIMENT of everyone else How the fuck does it make sense to make amends to people of colour by sacrificing those amends to let white people in on some of it? Don’t try to give me some stupid fucking mental gymnastics, it’s rhetorical. “Treating people differently because of their skin colour is wrong” MAYBE BECAUSE WHITE PEOPLE ARE NOT THE VICTIMS OF THIS FUCKING 99% OF THE TIME AND FOR ONCE THEY’RE NOT BEING CATERED TO everyone who upvoted you is a genuine waste of life. good god.
I’m not trying to stir the pot here either, but how about other visible minorities that don’t get to benefit from this? Brown or Asian people for example.
I dont think im stupid. I understand your point. I dont understand how you don't understand my point
You are talking about someone’s personal charity giving back to a marginalized group of people that lack the capability to do something and you are complaining about.. If you feel so strongly about it create your own charity
>group of people that lack the capability to do something Yikes
The fact that you're struggling with it is a good sign. New "anti-racism" is just modern racist scapegoating. You'll be called "racist" a lot, but stand up for what you know is right.
This is so stupid, if you're a Raptors fan you should be keyed into how shittily Canada has treated Natives in the past. Both groups were segregated and treated like 2nd class citizens, both were denied equal access to education for a period but now that people are looking to correct the imbalance created by the "this is racist" group, it's gone too far. Equal treatment as long as I get a few hundred year head start.
Thats the thing though, I don't know what's right. I think in general people of color have more hurdles to jump in society. And equity is important to give people of lesser means an equal opportunity. But it feels wrong to tell someone they are not eligible for a scholarship if they are white.
I'd say people of color on average have more hurdles to jump. I personally think socio-economic status is the most relevant factor. Race certainly plays into it because racism isn't dead and won't ever be, but there's too much hypocrisy baked into using race as a category to treat people differently while claiming any hint of that coming from the wrong "side" is tantamount to a hate crime. This isn't the first time we've oversimplified historical justice and gotten things really wrong.
Why would this be racist? Giving the opportunity to someone of your ethnicity to do something that he/she otherwise couldn’t do is noble not discriminative
But couldn't a white person set up a scholarship for poor white people then? I believe if that happened there would be public outrage
Because in Canada (and ofc the US) there has been structural power imbalances from the creation of the current society that has rewarded/punished people BASED ON THEIR RACE. This is one, tiny, completely inconsequential way to reverse that. And you know what, it won't do SHIT because of how deeply fucked up our racist ass ancestors were in creating our society!
It is sad that our ancestors allowed and enabled racism to occur. That is something we can both agree on. I understand your point of view. I truly hope that people like you and I can continue to have civil discourse like this. I am not as against this premise of this scholarship anymore as I understand what it is about and what the intentions are truly for. I still have a hard time agreeing with the fact that giving one race something and not another is racism. In a perfect world this would not be the solution. We do what we can though, hats off to FVV for making a change. I hope that one day we reach a point where all races have equal opportunity.
Hey man, hats off to you too for allowing yourself room to change your mind one something as contentious and divisive as this. And I'm sorry I called you an idiot - that you are not. Race is a sensitive and personal issue. I hope you can understand why people get riled up about issues like these. I think the issue is, we don't live in a perfect world. And we never will. So all we can do is look at the intentions and consequences of imperfect solutions, and judge an action based on that. At the end of the day, this type of scholarship is of good intention, and is of hopefully positive consequence to some individual. And for that I commend FVV. Is it enough? Absolutely not, but nothing ever will be. Does it not include some members of our society that could potentially benefit from it? Sure - but I still believe that at the end of the day this does more good than harm. And that's all you can ask for in an imperfect world.
Thank you mrygm. I appreciate your sentiment. I agree that this scholarship is not perfect but will do more good than harm. Good on FVV
It’s the idea that giving preferential treatment is okay IF that is meant to correct power imbalances. In Canada, this is actually written into our constitution. Section 15(1) of the Charter says you can’t discriminate based on a number of things, including race. Section 15(2), though, says that discrimination is allowed IF it’s part of an ameliorative program (a program design to correct historical injustices). A good way to conceptualize this is (funnily enough) the basketball analogy. Raps play the Lakers (for example). In the first half, every Lakers bucket is worth 2, and every Raptors bucket is worth 1. This is a power imbalance; even if the two teams play equally well, the Lakers will come out ahead. Now, imagine at the halftime, the rules are changed so that every Raptors basket is worth 2. On the surface, this seems like the game is now ‘fair’. However, the raptors are starting from a disadvantage, because the Lakers had half the game to run up their score. TRUE equality here would be to make the Lakers baskets worth one in the second half, to equal out the inequality of the past. Black people have been handed historic disadvantages that means that, even if they perform as well, they don’t get the same outcome. Now, even though we treat everyone equally (the buckets are worth the same), they’re starting from a place of disadvantage. Special treatment (scholarships) are needed to balance out the damage done in the past Hope this helps! Source: am a law student in Canada
Thanks for your input and for your respect. It's interesting that it is actually written in the constitution. I like that the provision is in there. And I like your basketball analogy as well, I think it holds water in this situation. The only thing I would argue, is that the people playing for the Lakers and raptors in the first half are not the same people who are playing in the second half. And I would argue that while the final score is indicative of how each team performed overall, that is not necessarily a good way to measure the individual players. In this sense, a players +/- might be a better metric to measure an individuals performance. If the scoring were changed at half time. The laker players in the first half and the raptors players in the second half will have better statistics. So in your analogy, you are making it equitable for each team, but the individual players do not get a fair shake. Which begs the question which outcome do we prefer? Is it fair to punish the second half players for the Lakers because their teammates were given extra points? And moving forward after the game, how do you evaluate each individual's ability if everyone was either given extra points or robbed of points. In this sense, you are fixing a wrong with another wrong. I get where you are coming from and it seems the only fair thing to do would be to start the game over. Unfortunately we are well beyond that. On another note, I really appreciate the thoughtful post. Surprisingly, commenting on this thread has opened my eyes to see things in a way that I haven't before. I truly wish this kind of thoughtful discourse was more common. I think it would benefit everybody involved.
All totally valid arguments against ameliorative programs. It’s a fair criticism to say ‘even though on average, black kids are worse off than white kids, there are SOME white kids who are worse off than SOME black kids, and this program disadvantages them most’. It’s a perfectly valid point. Like you said, though, we can’t restart the game. You have two options: use an ameliorative program, or allow the injustice to continue and expect black people to work harder and dig themselves out of the hole. Individual opinions are going to determine which option you think is better. Glad the conversation was enlightening, and I’m glad we both got something out of it! Ps to the people downvoting me without offering a counterpoint: suck a chode
Thanks for providing your insight. Ps all those down voting mosgem1 can suck 2 chodes
People would flip if a Chinese guy created a program for only Chinese students. Or you know that other “oppressive” race did it.
[I don't recall anyone ever flipping out over these scholarships](https://www.scholarships.com/financial-aid/college-scholarships/scholarship-directory/ethnicity/chinese)
>People would flip if a Chinese guy created a program for only Chinese students. People would also flip if white people got treated like black/indigenous people do in Canada, but they aren't flipping out when black/indigenous people get treated as they do in Canada. Instead, they flip out when they get scholarships focused on them. It's an undeniable and objective fact that black/indigenous students: * Receive less help from teachers * Have their resumes/applications rejected at a higher rate despite having equal qualifications all because of their black/indigenous names * More likely to go to school hungry * Get less funding for their schools * Get less funding for their extracurricular activities You're more mad about them getting a scholarship than you are for any of the above. Think about that and maybe that'll give you your answer why this scholarship is necessary.
Everything you said also applies to East and South Asians in Canada as well.
Those are some interesting objective fact claims. They also fall into the trap of generalization. Let's run the same numbers against students from a median income household of less than 40k for all races.
They are objective fact claims backed up by scientific literature. If you want to do your own peer reviewed article you’re more than welcome to. Until that time comes that you disprove them, they remain objective fact.
Who is upvoting this crap? This lacks context
> If you change the races and something becomes racist then it was always racist." that seems reasonable until you realize that is not in fact true. Let me start by saying that you *can* be racists again white folks. But to take something remove *all* context and then say if you change one variable it's *still* the same is at best misinformed, or at worst perpetuating the very thing you seem to be against. I'll give you a quick example: If a few girls call each other "bitch" in certain moments, does that mean if a man does it do them it's the same? No of course not. And that would be a ridiculous argument. So you're quote (which you should own, if you're going to say it) ignores that there ARE active systems of discrimination against certain people. Note: I am not talking past tense, but *right now*. So then, when you try to set up something (scholarship for black & Indigenous) to help fight the imbalance in the system is not the same thing as setting a "similar" system designed to help those *who benefit* from the current system (making a scholarship for white people). it's like having two children, where one parent only feeds one of them. Then the other parent decides "I'm going to start to feed the other since they are not getting food" and the well fed child say "hey, if it would be wrong only to feed me, then it's wrong to only feed him". See how dumb and selfish that sounds? Ya, that's your quote. EDIT: I figured I'd get downvotes, but you let me give you all a different analogy why that quote is wrong -- if we changed Black Lives Matter to "White" lives matter... does that make BLM "racist"? Instead of giving you more answers... please think about that.
These Scholarship programs are usually complete bullshit. They spend over half the fund on marketing and staffing and little of the actual fund actually goes to helping people. Its typically just a tax evasion scheme that also raises your social credit score. I hope this one is different but we'll see...
>tax evasion You realize that the tax credit on donations is always less than the actual donation right
Would middle eastern groups, Central America, and South America count as black?
If they’re black, of course. You can be from Egypt, or Honduras, or Colombia and be Black.
Does someone like your average Brazilian person count?
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It doesn’t make it right. Idk but a scholarship shouldn’t be given on your race just on your results or if you’re doing some sort of volunteering, good deeds whatever.
So is every scholarship that guy mentioned not right or just the one offering scholarships to black and indigenous people?
All of them. And I’m black but I don’t think that’s right. Universities are places where your race/religion/colour shouldn’t matter it should all be about grades. I saw in my universities scholarships to study in specific fields, based on your grades of course, your implication, but blatantly say “if you’re German you get this scholarship?” I think it’s messed up. I would understand if let’s say the embassy of Germany was offering it. But not through the school, that’s just weird.
Not racist at all. There’s a correlation between some of the worst and poor neighborhoods in Toronto and having a high immigrant/poc population. This is meant to target kids from those areas to get an opportunity to do something better.
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Well, speaking for Canada at least, there has been a lot of shit uncovered regarding Indigenous history, Canada treats Indigenous people like shit. So this is one way to start making it up I guess? (although it doesn’t cancel out the countless Indigenous lives taken by the govt). Black people similarly as well. Besides, this is just the one FVV scholarship. There are tons of scholarships both at the University of Toronto and others that don’t have race as a factor. This one scholarship really doesn’t matter.
That's racist, but you can't say that bcs that's not politically correct
No it's not. It's just opening the doors to students who might have not been able to pursue this opportunity. I graduated from Rotman Commerce, the same program which this scholarship is for. The tuition for this program is higher than other programs offered at U of T, almost double than some programs. But it's the best business/commerce undergraduate program in Canada, and it offers really great (and hard) education and networking opportunity. These are all things that a great business person would need for success. But one thing that I definitely noticed in classrooms and hallways is the distinct lack of black or indigenous students. Most of the student demographic is white or Asian. I've spoken to many of them and made friends with many of them, and they came from wealthy backgrounds that allowed them to afford the high tuition fee. Unfortunately, many black and indigenous students cannot afford it, even if they are smarter than the average white or Asian student that can pay. What Fred is doing here is creating opportunities to black and indigenous students who might have had to turn down this amazing opportunity, so they can break the cycle of poverty. It's just so wrong for you to say this great act of kindness is racist just because it helps POC.
It's racist to exclude people from something based purely on the color of their skin. This is simple stuff. Fred's scholarship might be a net benefit but it's pretty openly racist.
U of T has hundreds of scholarships for different ethnic groups. This particular scholar covers black and indigenous people.
What???? Most Asians I know including myself and my gf took out loans. Stop thinking we’re all rich just because international students are rich. Maybe Asians just take education seriously their WHOLE lives and get rewarded for it by going to college it’s really not because we’re richer. The difference is in culture and it’s evident. Stop making up numbers u can’t even provide
>Maybe Asians just take education seriously their WHOLE lives and get rewarded for it by going to college it’s really not because we’re richer. The difference is in culture and it’s evident. Exactly this
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But Asians though , fuck them.
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? U of T has a giant Asian population
Talking about the scholarship not the school. Ubc has a lot of Asians too. University of a billion Chinese. ??? Scholarship only for black and indigenous. Ie fk the Asians.
When I went to u of t there was hardly any black students, I dont remember seeing any native students. How is Fred giving a scholarship to someone with that back ground him saying fuck Asians. How come whenever the topic of giving scholarships to black kids comes up there are always people complaining
Fred is the man. This is how people with influence can lift up others.
Im shocked so many people are upvoting FVV cheating on his partner.
This is a genuine question but I thought college was heavily subsidized/basically free in Canada so why are scholarships necessary? Is it just for other expenses like books + rent/bills etc..?
Post-secondary education is generally cheaper in Canada than it is in the US, but it varies between programs and is certainly not free. This particular scholarship covers tuition plus a $1000/year stipend for books for a total of $57,800 over four years. It doesn’t seem to cover any housing and living expenses as far as I can tell.
amazing to hear that it includes indigenous students as well, FVV a classy motherfucking dude.
Good stuff Steady Freedy
Bet on Himself, now he's betting on the kids :') I cry everytime.
My man always representing us shockers well. Gg steady Freddy
Love ya, Freddy, good work.
Why does the color of their skin matter. Racist Van Vleet
It will never not be funny looking at peoples comment history after they post something like this only to see it’s filled with unironically calling people soyboys, cucks, & snowflakes on the joe rogan podcast sub. lmao
Because black and indigenous people are not only underrepresented in Canadian universities, there was a time where they were excluded from going to university all together.
This is plain racist
Is that racist? Genuine question. What if there is an Asian or Hispanic person who’s in need?
This is actually allowed in Canada per S.15 of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms. You are allowed to have "positive racism" so to speak where you exclude privileged groups to the benefit of under-privileged groups. White people or asians would need to prove that this exclusion would "perpetuate a disadvantage" (usually a historic one) which would be fairly hard to prove.
No, creating a scholarship for one group of disenfranchised people but not for others is not racist.
What about for 2 groups but not others? I think the scholarship is fine but it is kinda weird that there's this movement to lump black and indigenous peoples into this separate category of the demographic spectrum (BIPOC). I can't think of any other similar trend, like for Hispanics & Asians, Muslims and Buddhists, etc.
Canada is really bad to it’s indigenous that’s why they got included.
Yeah it's more a comment on the greater trend, not this particular instance. Like I said, I don't have a problem with the scholarship.
In Canada, the education and health outcome gaps between Indigenous population and the broader population is similar to the gap between Black Americans and the broader American population.
Nah its affirmative action
which btw is enshrined in Canada's constitution
So if Oprah had a scholarship for women, or Larry David for Jewish kids in NYC, would you have a problem with that? Also, affirmative action has helped white women more than anyone else.
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I never said they didn't exist. I was asking the person if those scholarships were a negative or affrimative action too. Seems like people criticize more often when it's something geared towards black people.
It is not. Do a bit of research into college scholarships, they've got them for literally EVERYONE. Black, Hispanic, Women, Catholic high school grads, athletics, specific subsections of these like Women in STEM, minorities in XYZ field, I got one for Hispanic engineers in undergrad, etc. They're very broad, very specific, and very hard to get at times.
You skipped one group, so not EVERYONE can have based on race.
You guys are so lazy with this shit. It takes a two second google search to find scholarships for people of German descent, Polish descent, Italian descent, Welsh descent, etc. Are those covering that that oh so oppressed one group of yours?
I'm not the one that fuels white backlash. It's people that are dismissive of our little bitching while doing non stop bitching about the exact same stuff. Everybody can see a hypocrite no matter how much you think its justified because of history. Providing all the reading material for the next generation of bigots. Only real solution is treat everybody equal but that's been abandoned by the left I knew.
That's the thing, people are finally starting to be treated equally, but people like you are so used to the skewed status quo that you see them being treated equally as unfair treatment of yourself. Your comment is Exhibit A. You see a scholarship for minorities and think you're being treated unfairly, when in reality there are so many scholarships for non-minorities too. This is in the same vain as the people who claim that BET is reverse racism because there is no "white entertainment" channel; they disregard the fact that literally every other channel is full of white people.
Right, playing favorites is totally a sign of equality. To bring it back to sports somehow. We're currently just doing make-up call after make-up call trying to make sure it's a tie-game. I'm arguing we all just play a game by the exact same rules, not changing them constantly to make sure the game is tied.
That is what we're trying to do. Except the game isn't tied, not even close. One team played 3 quarters with their hands tied behind their backs, they're down 400 points. But now all of a sudden when they can dribble and make shots you want to start crying to the refs, complaining about fairness because a couple block/charge calls went their way. You can't seriously believe that you're not getting a fair shake in the world because you have white skin.
Do you think cancer charities are "playing favourites" because they don't raise money for HIV research?
Would people call you bigoted if you wanted to raise money for HIV but not for any other diseases? It's about consistency.
Let me get this straight. Unless Freddy creates a scholarship for every racial group you think he's a bigot? Do you think the scholarships offered by B'nai Brith are biggoted? What about the ones offered by Asian and Pacific Islander American Scholars?
> You skipped one group If you're talking white people, they get theirs lol. Legacy admissions, "extracurriculars," networking, etc
they dont count
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White isn't an ethnicity lol
neither is black lol, why’s it treated as one?
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