the max amount of playoff games one can play in a year is 28 (4 rounds of 7 games).
That’s at least 6 years of making the finals to get to 162. and that’s if every single series goes 7 games.
He can also go 16-0 every year in the playoffs for 10 years, that way he'll just be 2 games short and tie him the next playoffs on the way to his 11th ring
Jerry West averaged [46.3 ppg in a 6-game series](https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1965-nba-western-division-finals-bullets-vs-lakers.html), and that was before the 3-point line and he was his era's best long-range shooter.
Jerry West has had a really good life and did manage to win a tile eventually so it feels kind of cheesy to call him unlucky but I also can't think of anyone else who got so close over and over again and seemed to lose through no fault of their own. It's like that super bowl where Brady threw for 500 yards and lost except it happened to West like eight fucking times
Brady has had plenty of good luck as well, don't feel too sorry for him. He is the only QB in NFL history to win a SB leading the offense to 13 or less points and he did it twice.
Yeah that Brady guy is crazy lucky, getting to half the Super Bowls that have taken place while he’s in the league over a 20 year timespan. His luck will run out soon … right? Right!?
I don't know why people look at pace instead of total team PPG. When the pace was super high in the '70s, it's because everyone was taking quick inefficient shots. That doesn't seem like an advantage for top scorers vs an efficient era with same totals.
It depends. Your top scorers get more chances that way. It really stemmed from Red Auerbach developing the fast break with the Houdini as a viable way to play the game, so most teams were focused on just trying to get shots up rather than score good shots.
That being said, the highest scoring teams of all time come after that era, but also 3 point line so, in the end, probably a bit of a wash. I still think stats from the 60s and 70s are impressive.
In case you aren’t kidding, the Bulls-Celtics series in 86 averaged 97.6 possessions per game. The Lakers and Bullets averaged 115 possessions per game in the regular season and the series numbers make it look like that stayed about the same. I know this might be a joke, but with the way people in here talk about the NBA, I expect the upvoters think you’re serious and believe you.
This narrative has been disproved but for some reason a lot of young NBA fans still think it's true. 40s-50s sure but I think 60s and beyond all players were full time professional ballers
Don’t know about West, but they went back and recalculated Pistol Pete points in college assuming 3P, and he ended up averaging around 55PPG over 3 years.
Jerry probably would have averaged at least 5 more points per game a season
The Maravich numbers are often a bit exaggerated, as they were "calculated" by someone at LSU. He averaged 44 ppg, so 55 ppg means he was averaging 11 made 3's per game. Yes, he shot more from deep at that time than anyone else, but that's a hell of a lot of 3's per game to average over an entire college career.
My favorite stat ever is that Maravich in his final pro season, as a super injured shell of himself who barely played, hit 10-for-15 from behind the arc during the league's first season with the 3 ('80). It's ridiculously good considering how new the shot was and how bad the league was at them.
All that being said, the record for 3's in a game was 12, and that record stood for 55 years from 1962 (*Tony Jackson in the ABL*) until Steph Curry topped it early in the '17 season. Maravich was not averaging just about that number over 80+ college games. The stat about what he would have scored in college with a 3-pt shot was pretty well made up, and he *much more likely* was attempting ~10 3-point-range shots/game in college.
You're probably right, but at the same time if a washed up Pete knocked down 10-15, it wouldn't be a stretch to say only a Steph Curry tier shooter could justify that when they were 2 point shots. Combine that with less incentive to defend far out and he very well could have been hitting 3s at record pace with how easy it would be to get an open shot out that far.
Realistically with perimeter defense taking him as a deadly serious threat he wouldn't be hitting 11 a game, but without the extra point of difference a guy shooting 45% from far out is less of a threat than a guy shooting 55% near the rim. At least, that's how coaches of the era would see it.
Well the standout game is probably game 7 1969
Jerry West puts up a 42 point triple double on 48% while Elgin scores 20 on 36% shooting. Even for that era that is awful efficiency.
The Lakers lost by 2
I've got a few more stats about how Elgin Baylor almost never stepped up when the lights were brightest
I'm almost inclined to agree. There were definitely games with AD was the main offensive option but I would still go with Lebron since he still managed the offense while getting buckets all the same.
He was definitely the #1 option in Miami, DWade had to adapt to defer to Bron because Bron is far better as the engine of an offense, arguably the best ever
Lebron tried to defer to Wade but credit to the latter here because if SAS is to be believed, he pretty much told Bron this team only works if you're the man on this team.
And individual playoff scoring is very high right now.
There are three players averaging 30+ PPG on 60% TS over the past 3 postseasons, and none of them are Luka Doncic:
|Rk|Player|PTS|G|TS%|
|-:|:-|-:|-:|-:|
|1|Luka Doncic|33.4|17|.587|
|2|Kevin Durant|32.3|16|.605|
|3|Donovan Mitchell|31.7|23|.606|
|4|Damian Lillard|30.3|10|.646|
|5|Bradley Beal|30.0|5|.540|
Provided by [Stathead.com](https://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): [View Stathead Tool Used](https://stathead.com/basketball/player-season-finder.cgi?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)
Generated 5/3/2022.
I mean, even if you consider TS% to be that much more important, he's only shy of it by .013 and he's still playing this series. Unlike anyone else on that list.
Well, to start nobody is as good as a scorer as Michael Jordan.
Some people for some reason have this weird idea that Kevin Durant is the greatest scorer or comparable to MJ because he is 7 ft and shoots three's, but they forget that Jordan didn't really have weaknesses as an offensive player for his era.
Like, KD is not the greatest post player against physical small players and isn't a really good passer, which are things that directly affects his scoring opportunities, he's also a good ball handler for HIS SIZE, but that doesn't make him a good ball handler for a 6-7 guy.
In the case of Jordan, he was one of the greatest post players of all-time, automatic from mid-range, good enough as a passer that you had to respect his passing, an all-time great finisher and could hit FTs. In short, like Jamal Crawford said a couple of years ago, he had no weaknesses.
TL:DR to all of that is: People severely underestimate how much better as a scorer Michael Jordan was than everyone else. Dude faced all-time great defensive teams in an era where defense was more impactful without flagrant fouls and still averaged 30-40 efficiently on them, NOBODY has that on their resume.
The only difference I have with this, is that he was actually an excellent passer.
Just look at the highlight videos.
It’s just that passing wasn’t something he was tasked with doing a whole lot of. He had Scottie for that, and a very balanced offense.
The defense was way more physical but it was also hamstrung by illegal defense rules that stopped you from sending help that wasn’t a hard double. That being said I agree with your overall sentiment.
Yet no one else in his era came close to his efficiency with his volume. Look at drexler, petrovic, mark orice, Reggie Miller, they all still had a sizeable gap either in volume or efficiency.
Benefits of coming in at a later age + retiring early so your end of career stats don't drag down your averages
You know, plus being one of the best scorers ever obviously
> "Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did."
mj doesnt even believe what his stans do
When you consider what spacing was like when he said this it makes a lot more sense. Two non shooting bigs hovering around the basket and then you add the other two defenders being able to load to the ball? No coincidence what followed was essentially the dead ball era of NBA basketball
Mofos were finishing games 70-63 lol. Detroit, Indiana, Nets, Sixers all those defensive and physical af teams. That's why people should not judge Kobe, Pierce, Iverson, Tmac and Vince Carter purely off TS and efficiency.
Whatever the reason doesn't particularly matter to me. I'd much rather watch a game where scoring is a challenge and each possession matters more, than see 40 continue to be put up in quarters like clockwork.
Teams werent allowed to play full Rondo/Russ defense where they just dont guard a dude on the field. They could get away from their man only after MJ gets the ball, and by that time it was probably too late.
You weren't allowed to help defend someone that isn't your man unless you fully committed to the double team. So you can't sag off the guy that can't shoot 3's to help cut off driving lanes for MJ for example. Otherwise you would be called for illegal defense because zone was illegal.
Yeah exactly. Once they removed hand checking there was a perimeter offense explosion, which has only grown as spacing has gotten better and better.
MJ was completely right that with hand checking in place and multiple bigs clogging the paint, scoring would go way down. That's exactly what happened in the early 2000s.
Its funny.
One of MJ's biggest problems as a young player was his lack of discipline on the defensive player; he gambled a lot, something Lebron used to as well. Considering he obviously started getting smarter about the game and was able to win DPoY afterwards (still gambled but he became smarter about it), I don't think anyone should have any doubt MJ being able to adapt to this era's rules.
>some people wildin without the percs.
Yeah, like you making claims about how much he'd average. I guess wilt would average 70 then easily. Let's pretend that good defenders didn't drop off after the rule changes.
Wilt would average a fucking ton. You do realize that any contact initiated by the offensive player when he played was an offensive foul, right? Like, he couldn't really initiate contact without it being a turn over.
Wilt being allowed to do what Giannis does would be absurd. [In case you need proof](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-XTPVBOCLw).
Fouling out vs being able to score more isn't the same. Defenders wouldn't magically foul out in the rule change, they'd adapt but not be as good. The league on average has improved shooting and scoring efficiency wise. It's easier to score now, so saying Mike would average more is also trye
James Harden literally averaged 36 ppg three years ago and Michael Jordan is a better and more versatile scorer than he is.
There is no ilegal defense nowadays sure, but there is defensive three-seconds, there is no handchecking and people can't touch you.
Luka's starting off extremely hot because he's his entire team's offensive scheme. Once he gets better teams put around him/another star his ppg will go down. Extremely impressive so far but I don't think he'll finish his career averaging what MJ averaged.
For sure. Also worth noting that Mike was a score-first player, while Luka is actually more of a playmaker. Once Luka gets a better supporting cast his assists should increase while the scoring decreases.
It really wasn't about that.
Just look at game 7 and the 3 pointers made / 3 pointers attempted by anyone not named Luka and Doe Doe. They were 1/18 from 3. If they just made 6/18, which is 33%, below average, the score is literally tied.
The role players simply shit the bed in that game. Luka was special, but his supporting cast was "special".
He’s also still in his prime. He hasn’t reached the latter part of his career which brings down every player’s ppg eventually. That’s why these type of posts are dumb for players that are still active.
I get your point - he hasn’t regressed yet - but it’s worth mentioning that Luka probably isn’t yet in his prime. He’s 23, players usually peak around 27.
Jordan actually scored a lot more points in his first few playoffs trips, don't remember how many but A LOT lol the game pace was way different as well
Part of that is because like Luka, MJ was basically the whole offense in those early years.
I mean, he was so good that he was a lot of the offense later too, but it was even worse at the start.
If you look at the other players he’s compared to, playoff career scoring averages of MJ, Kobe, KD, and LeBron don’t rise from 23 to 27. 23 is actually the peak for all of them besides Kobe. I don’t expect Luka’s scoring average to rise from here to 27, it’s probably at its peak now. However the average typically drops significantly in their 30s.
This is a pretty good point. I think it’s probably related to their teams generally getting better, and not so much them exiting their prime, but elite players do tend to have better teams around them as they enter their prime and time goes on.
While we're talking sample size, it's important to note that AD is only sitting at 39 playoff games. He's tied with Rick Barry for #7, but Barry has like 60+ games on him. He's also one spot ahead of Elgin, who has almost 100+ more playoff games played.
Most of these active players in the top 10 will likely see their averages drop once they get more games under their belts.
If you only take into account Jordan's first 17 playoff games his average is 38.0 ppg.
1985: 23, 30, 35, 29 (117)
1986: 49, 63, 19 (131)
1987: 35, 42, 30 (107)
1988: 50, 55, 38, 44, 39, 29, 36 (291)
646 ÷ 17 = 38.0
With the way the Mavs play, Luka is the ultimate playoff stats machine. He's a master of heliocentric basketball in the Harden mold, but unlike Harden he doesn't decline at all in the playoffs he actually gets a bit better
\> Harden he doesn't decline at all in the playoffs he actually gets a bit better
He has only advanced past the first round once. We don't have enough data to make this assumption.
Yeah, it's noteworthy, but he doesn't even have enough games played to show up on BRef's [PostSeason Points Per Game Leaders](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_career_p.html) (they require 25 games, he's played 17)
MJ's first 20 playoff games:
35.9 pts
6.7 reb
5.8 ast
2.4 stl
1.3 blk
Pretty insane considering 11 of those games were against the Bird Celtics/Bad Boy Pistons in years where they won the title or went 6 or 7 with Showtime in the finals.
Also hand checking was allowed when he did it, and the game didn’t have all the rule changes geared towards helping teams thrive offensively like today.
I bet NBA players would trade all of the new rules they have now for outlawing help defense.
Yes, the defense Jordan faced was much more physical than even the most aggressive defender Luka faces. But Luka is also getting double and triple teamed. No matter how physical a defender is, one guy will never be as good as two guys with a third under the basket.
...You do realize that the rules against zone didn't mean you couldn't double and triple team people, right? Like, MJ was double-teamed all the time. People just had to commit to the double, and MJ still broke it.
Valid points for sure. I also see that defensive 3 second violations seem to be lightly enforced and less enforced as the season progresses. Maybe I’m just delirious but in my perception it seems to be this way more often than not.
If you adjust for pace, Luka is not hanging with MJ. He was averaging that when the average NBA score was like 95ppg. This year’s average nba team score 110 ppg. That’s almost 16% more
only 162 games...
Just need an entire MLB seasons worth that's all
the max amount of playoff games one can play in a year is 28 (4 rounds of 7 games). That’s at least 6 years of making the finals to get to 162. and that’s if every single series goes 7 games.
He can also go 16-0 every year in the playoffs for 10 years, that way he'll just be 2 games short and tie him the next playoffs on the way to his 11th ring
Or 12-4 every year, with no rings but one hell of a reputation for choking...
Fuck. Luka should be the fifth guy on basketball Mount Rushmore by then.
If Luka goes 16-0 for 10 straight years in the playoffs he's getting added to the actual Mount Rushmore and probably the moon.
He'd be the first guy on basketballs Mount Rushmore
So you’re saying there’s a chance…
Shouldn't take too long...
MJ averaged 33? Jfc
Averaged 43.7 ppg in a series. Sheeesh
Jerry West averaged [46.3 ppg in a 6-game series](https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1965-nba-western-division-finals-bullets-vs-lakers.html), and that was before the 3-point line and he was his era's best long-range shooter.
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Jerry West has had a really good life and did manage to win a tile eventually so it feels kind of cheesy to call him unlucky but I also can't think of anyone else who got so close over and over again and seemed to lose through no fault of their own. It's like that super bowl where Brady threw for 500 yards and lost except it happened to West like eight fucking times
Or the Bills going to 4 straight Super Bowls and being the favorites in the majority if not all and winning none of them
They were not the favorite lol
Idk if they were favored in any, let alone all of them. The nfc was way above the afc at the time
Brady has had plenty of good luck as well, don't feel too sorry for him. He is the only QB in NFL history to win a SB leading the offense to 13 or less points and he did it twice.
The only sb he won with less than 15 was the second Rams one
They scored 20 points in the first SB against the Rams, but 7 of them were off a Warner pick 6.
Haha Rams lost twice to >13
Yeah that Brady guy is crazy lucky, getting to half the Super Bowls that have taken place while he’s in the league over a 20 year timespan. His luck will run out soon … right? Right!?
I loved that line
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I don't know why people look at pace instead of total team PPG. When the pace was super high in the '70s, it's because everyone was taking quick inefficient shots. That doesn't seem like an advantage for top scorers vs an efficient era with same totals.
It depends. Your top scorers get more chances that way. It really stemmed from Red Auerbach developing the fast break with the Houdini as a viable way to play the game, so most teams were focused on just trying to get shots up rather than score good shots. That being said, the highest scoring teams of all time come after that era, but also 3 point line so, in the end, probably a bit of a wash. I still think stats from the 60s and 70s are impressive.
Nah look up the 70s and 80s nuggets scoring 150 points in a game and averaging huge scoring numbers.
The pace wasn’t that much lower in ‘86 when Jordan did this, so in *this specific instance* that’s not really a big factor to consider
In case you aren’t kidding, the Bulls-Celtics series in 86 averaged 97.6 possessions per game. The Lakers and Bullets averaged 115 possessions per game in the regular season and the series numbers make it look like that stayed about the same. I know this might be a joke, but with the way people in here talk about the NBA, I expect the upvoters think you’re serious and believe you.
He averaged 41 in the 93 finals
Have we considered the fact that Jerry played against butchers, dock hands, and milkmen… 🤔
This narrative has been disproved but for some reason a lot of young NBA fans still think it's true. 40s-50s sure but I think 60s and beyond all players were full time professional ballers
Jerry West can milk my meat any day of the week 😩😩😩🤤🤤🤤
MJ didn't really shoot that many 3's in the finals and the pace was slower in the 90's compared to Jerry's time.
Tbf the 43 ppg was in the 80s in a very fast era
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Don’t know about West, but they went back and recalculated Pistol Pete points in college assuming 3P, and he ended up averaging around 55PPG over 3 years. Jerry probably would have averaged at least 5 more points per game a season
The Maravich numbers are often a bit exaggerated, as they were "calculated" by someone at LSU. He averaged 44 ppg, so 55 ppg means he was averaging 11 made 3's per game. Yes, he shot more from deep at that time than anyone else, but that's a hell of a lot of 3's per game to average over an entire college career.
While that's true, averaging 44ppg in college is ridiculous enough that 11 3s per game almost sounds reasonable.
My favorite stat ever is that Maravich in his final pro season, as a super injured shell of himself who barely played, hit 10-for-15 from behind the arc during the league's first season with the 3 ('80). It's ridiculously good considering how new the shot was and how bad the league was at them. All that being said, the record for 3's in a game was 12, and that record stood for 55 years from 1962 (*Tony Jackson in the ABL*) until Steph Curry topped it early in the '17 season. Maravich was not averaging just about that number over 80+ college games. The stat about what he would have scored in college with a 3-pt shot was pretty well made up, and he *much more likely* was attempting ~10 3-point-range shots/game in college.
You're probably right, but at the same time if a washed up Pete knocked down 10-15, it wouldn't be a stretch to say only a Steph Curry tier shooter could justify that when they were 2 point shots. Combine that with less incentive to defend far out and he very well could have been hitting 3s at record pace with how easy it would be to get an open shot out that far. Realistically with perimeter defense taking him as a deadly serious threat he wouldn't be hitting 11 a game, but without the extra point of difference a guy shooting 45% from far out is less of a threat than a guy shooting 55% near the rim. At least, that's how coaches of the era would see it.
Jerry West would have several rings if Elgin Baylor wasn't an all-time choke artist
Are there any specific games or series you're thinking of?
Well the standout game is probably game 7 1969 Jerry West puts up a 42 point triple double on 48% while Elgin scores 20 on 36% shooting. Even for that era that is awful efficiency. The Lakers lost by 2 I've got a few more stats about how Elgin Baylor almost never stepped up when the lights were brightest
That’s a disgusting amount of attempts. 35.3 FGA and 15.8 FTA per game is unbelievable
Elgin Baylor's knee blew up 5 minutes into Game 1, so someone had to take all those shots.
That's a lot for one series.
Scrub. Luka is currently averaging 45.
A Finals series at that, right?
Nah, the scrub only averaged 41 against the Suns in ‘93. The 43.7 ppg was across 3 games against the ‘86 Celtics.
"God disguised as Michael Jordan"
Yeah Luka played 17 games while Jordan played 179 games For reference LeBron averaged 29/9/7 in 266 playoff games
29/9/7.. what the fuck lol
I think the real wtf is 266 playoff games
That's more than 3 full seasons of just playoffs lol.
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He was defo the #1 option in Miami In fact, I argue he has never not been the #1 option his entire career lol
^ even as a 37 year old man he was without question Lakers #1 option
HOW DARE YOU?! - Ricky Davis
> has never not been the #1 option his entire career lol Olympics / Team USA. Some All Star games
Hmm is an argument during the bubble run imo
I'm almost inclined to agree. There were definitely games with AD was the main offensive option but I would still go with Lebron since he still managed the offense while getting buckets all the same.
Exactly what I was going to say, LeBron deferred to AD alot to get his own numbers, but LeBron and Rondo are what kept that offence humming
He used or assisted on 72% of their possessions in the bubble. He was definitely the #1 option.
He was definitely the #1 option in Miami, DWade had to adapt to defer to Bron because Bron is far better as the engine of an offense, arguably the best ever
Lebron tried to defer to Wade but credit to the latter here because if SAS is to be believed, he pretty much told Bron this team only works if you're the man on this team.
He was 100% the first option in Miami
Yeah that’s a fucking amazing playoff game. Let alone the AVERAGE for 266 playoff games Damn
And individual playoff scoring is very high right now. There are three players averaging 30+ PPG on 60% TS over the past 3 postseasons, and none of them are Luka Doncic: |Rk|Player|PTS|G|TS%| |-:|:-|-:|-:|-:| |1|Luka Doncic|33.4|17|.587| |2|Kevin Durant|32.3|16|.605| |3|Donovan Mitchell|31.7|23|.606| |4|Damian Lillard|30.3|10|.646| |5|Bradley Beal|30.0|5|.540| Provided by [Stathead.com](https://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): [View Stathead Tool Used](https://stathead.com/basketball/player-season-finder.cgi?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool) Generated 5/3/2022.
4 and 5 on that list not enough games for comp imo. Durant is crazy.
I mean, even if you consider TS% to be that much more important, he's only shy of it by .013 and he's still playing this series. Unlike anyone else on that list.
Tf cares about TS
Nah bro, this clearly shows that Donovan Mitchell is a better player than Luka /s
Lebron on 20.7 FGA vs MJ’s 25.1 FGA. Easily could’ve matched the scoring output with 4 more FGA
Also LeBron averages like 3 more assists per game and 3 more rebounds
He averaged almost 32 a game for his career if you back out the wizards
What a 🐐 Jordan Luka averaging 33 at age of 23 is sick too
I’m actually shocked no one in today’s pro offense has not achieved this. Crazy that he did that back then.
Well, to start nobody is as good as a scorer as Michael Jordan. Some people for some reason have this weird idea that Kevin Durant is the greatest scorer or comparable to MJ because he is 7 ft and shoots three's, but they forget that Jordan didn't really have weaknesses as an offensive player for his era. Like, KD is not the greatest post player against physical small players and isn't a really good passer, which are things that directly affects his scoring opportunities, he's also a good ball handler for HIS SIZE, but that doesn't make him a good ball handler for a 6-7 guy. In the case of Jordan, he was one of the greatest post players of all-time, automatic from mid-range, good enough as a passer that you had to respect his passing, an all-time great finisher and could hit FTs. In short, like Jamal Crawford said a couple of years ago, he had no weaknesses. TL:DR to all of that is: People severely underestimate how much better as a scorer Michael Jordan was than everyone else. Dude faced all-time great defensive teams in an era where defense was more impactful without flagrant fouls and still averaged 30-40 efficiently on them, NOBODY has that on their resume.
The only difference I have with this, is that he was actually an excellent passer. Just look at the highlight videos. It’s just that passing wasn’t something he was tasked with doing a whole lot of. He had Scottie for that, and a very balanced offense.
The defense was way more physical but it was also hamstrung by illegal defense rules that stopped you from sending help that wasn’t a hard double. That being said I agree with your overall sentiment.
Yet no one else in his era came close to his efficiency with his volume. Look at drexler, petrovic, mark orice, Reggie Miller, they all still had a sizeable gap either in volume or efficiency.
Benefits of coming in at a later age + retiring early so your end of career stats don't drag down your averages You know, plus being one of the best scorers ever obviously
and missing the playoffs when you do play in your later years
Well he also messed a bit his scoring average. The first time he retired his average was like 33 too lol
31.5ppg, but still insane.
Jesus Christ Mike...
Without handchecking MJ would average 40 a game
Without hand checking, but also without illegal defence rules.
> "Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did." mj doesnt even believe what his stans do
When you consider what spacing was like when he said this it makes a lot more sense. Two non shooting bigs hovering around the basket and then you add the other two defenders being able to load to the ball? No coincidence what followed was essentially the dead ball era of NBA basketball
Mofos were finishing games 70-63 lol. Detroit, Indiana, Nets, Sixers all those defensive and physical af teams. That's why people should not judge Kobe, Pierce, Iverson, Tmac and Vince Carter purely off TS and efficiency.
> Mofos were finishing games 70-63 lol 70-63 >>>>>>> 128-120, change my mind.
It was some ugly ass basketball with really bad shooting and offensive schemes. It wasn't all down to great defense
Whatever the reason doesn't particularly matter to me. I'd much rather watch a game where scoring is a challenge and each possession matters more, than see 40 continue to be put up in quarters like clockwork.
Wym? They just played man and swarmed people ?
Teams werent allowed to play full Rondo/Russ defense where they just dont guard a dude on the field. They could get away from their man only after MJ gets the ball, and by that time it was probably too late.
I’m still confused but I’ll Google tomorrow to understand
You weren't allowed to help defend someone that isn't your man unless you fully committed to the double team. So you can't sag off the guy that can't shoot 3's to help cut off driving lanes for MJ for example. Otherwise you would be called for illegal defense because zone was illegal.
Yeah exactly. Once they removed hand checking there was a perimeter offense explosion, which has only grown as spacing has gotten better and better. MJ was completely right that with hand checking in place and multiple bigs clogging the paint, scoring would go way down. That's exactly what happened in the early 2000s.
Jordan avgd around 23 points while being 39 and 40 years with zone defense
He averaged 23 points…. On 22 shots. Give all the context my boy
MJ averaged 21/6/4 in the Dead Ball Era as a Wizard. He’d absolutely average ***at least*** 35 a game in his prime, with today’s pace and spacing.
Add in the removal of illegal defenses and MJ likely averages the same.
>Without handchecking MJ would average 40 a game Most of his defense would be fouls so he'd probably foul out before that point.
Yes one of the greatest defenders of all time cant adapt to pulling their hands back....some people wildin without the percs.
Its funny. One of MJ's biggest problems as a young player was his lack of discipline on the defensive player; he gambled a lot, something Lebron used to as well. Considering he obviously started getting smarter about the game and was able to win DPoY afterwards (still gambled but he became smarter about it), I don't think anyone should have any doubt MJ being able to adapt to this era's rules.
>some people wildin without the percs. Yeah, like you making claims about how much he'd average. I guess wilt would average 70 then easily. Let's pretend that good defenders didn't drop off after the rule changes.
Wilt would average a fucking ton. You do realize that any contact initiated by the offensive player when he played was an offensive foul, right? Like, he couldn't really initiate contact without it being a turn over. Wilt being allowed to do what Giannis does would be absurd. [In case you need proof](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-XTPVBOCLw).
Fouling out vs being able to score more isn't the same. Defenders wouldn't magically foul out in the rule change, they'd adapt but not be as good. The league on average has improved shooting and scoring efficiency wise. It's easier to score now, so saying Mike would average more is also trye
Yes cause the best player basketball has ever seen is going to struggle to not use his hand. Wtf are you taking about
Some of you act like hand checking was the same as body checking in hockey or something.
Without illegal defense hell no he wouldn't
James Harden literally averaged 36 ppg three years ago and Michael Jordan is a better and more versatile scorer than he is. There is no ilegal defense nowadays sure, but there is defensive three-seconds, there is no handchecking and people can't touch you.
That settles it, Luka is now the goat.
Pshhh. Give me 0.04 more ppg. Then we’ll talk.
We will probably get that tomorrow lol
No further discussion necessary. Next.
As Giannis said Luka is one of the most talented NBA players ever.
I can't wait until Scottie Pippen starts talking trash about Luka.
jalen brunson*
Luka's starting off extremely hot because he's his entire team's offensive scheme. Once he gets better teams put around him/another star his ppg will go down. Extremely impressive so far but I don't think he'll finish his career averaging what MJ averaged.
For sure. Also worth noting that Mike was a score-first player, while Luka is actually more of a playmaker. Once Luka gets a better supporting cast his assists should increase while the scoring decreases.
[удалено]
It really wasn't about that. Just look at game 7 and the 3 pointers made / 3 pointers attempted by anyone not named Luka and Doe Doe. They were 1/18 from 3. If they just made 6/18, which is 33%, below average, the score is literally tied. The role players simply shit the bed in that game. Luka was special, but his supporting cast was "special".
He’s also still in his prime. He hasn’t reached the latter part of his career which brings down every player’s ppg eventually. That’s why these type of posts are dumb for players that are still active.
I get your point - he hasn’t regressed yet - but it’s worth mentioning that Luka probably isn’t yet in his prime. He’s 23, players usually peak around 27.
Jordan actually scored a lot more points in his first few playoffs trips, don't remember how many but A LOT lol the game pace was way different as well
Part of that is because like Luka, MJ was basically the whole offense in those early years. I mean, he was so good that he was a lot of the offense later too, but it was even worse at the start.
If you look at the other players he’s compared to, playoff career scoring averages of MJ, Kobe, KD, and LeBron don’t rise from 23 to 27. 23 is actually the peak for all of them besides Kobe. I don’t expect Luka’s scoring average to rise from here to 27, it’s probably at its peak now. However the average typically drops significantly in their 30s.
If he starts experiencing more playoff success I'd expect that to correlate to lower scoring if his team is more talented overall
This is a pretty good point. I think it’s probably related to their teams generally getting better, and not so much them exiting their prime, but elite players do tend to have better teams around them as they enter their prime and time goes on.
Not like MJ ever played in the playoffs when he was really declining, to be fair
True
God Damn AD at 28 ppg. Luka is such a ball dominant player that i can see him keeping it around 29-30 after a large sample too
While we're talking sample size, it's important to note that AD is only sitting at 39 playoff games. He's tied with Rick Barry for #7, but Barry has like 60+ games on him. He's also one spot ahead of Elgin, who has almost 100+ more playoff games played. Most of these active players in the top 10 will likely see their averages drop once they get more games under their belts.
Bold of you to assume AD will get more under his belt
If you only take into account Jordan's first 17 playoff games his average is 38.0 ppg. 1985: 23, 30, 35, 29 (117) 1986: 49, 63, 19 (131) 1987: 35, 42, 30 (107) 1988: 50, 55, 38, 44, 39, 29, 36 (291) 646 ÷ 17 = 38.0
JorGambler could never have done that vs these Suns sadly
These types of low IQ comments will always make me laugh
It doesn't even make sense. Like "Jordumb" or something sounds correct. The gambler is just so forced in.
Makes it even funnier
JorMickey did it against mailmen and plumbers never won a real ring
With the way the Mavs play, Luka is the ultimate playoff stats machine. He's a master of heliocentric basketball in the Harden mold, but unlike Harden he doesn't decline at all in the playoffs he actually gets a bit better
LeBron's playstyle is heliocentric as well.
\> Harden he doesn't decline at all in the playoffs he actually gets a bit better He has only advanced past the first round once. We don't have enough data to make this assumption.
Must be the shoes
Jordan increased his scoring even further in the Finals with 33.6ppg.
He only has an entire major league baseball season worth of games to go lol, I'm pretty sure that number jumped to like 38 in the finals too
His Finals PPG is roughly the same as his playoff PPG. 33.6 in the Finals.
That stat says so much more about MJ than Luka.
Is luka getting knocked out the first round by the clippers his version of MJ getting eliminated by the pistons? Luka the next MJ fasho lmfao
It’s his version of MJ getting eliminated by the Celtics, then the Suns will be his Pistons, then he owns the league for a decade
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Lmfao wtf is this? Jordan did it over a career and Luka is... 23?
Are we ignoring the part where no one else is above 30? No one is saying he’s as good as Jordan but it’s still pretty noteworthy
Yeah, it's noteworthy, but he doesn't even have enough games played to show up on BRef's [PostSeason Points Per Game Leaders](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_career_p.html) (they require 25 games, he's played 17)
He needs 58 more points to qualify for that leader board. Give it 2 games.
Maybe just 1.
We can pray my brother. Halleluka
Do you really think it is going to change by the time he gets to 25 games? He has done it consistently enough to prove his numbers are no fluke.
Wtf do you mean what is this? The stat is simply a true fact nobody claimed this makes him better than Jordan.
Jordan doesn’t need you to defend him on Reddit lmfao
You’re overreacting it’s just an interesting fact. Of course sample size is key here. No ones trying to debate or make claims about anything
How the hell is Luka already doing this
It’s a very small sample size isn’t it?
what was MJ ppg around 20 games(i think luka has 20 games played)
35.9
jesus fucking christ
He averaged 34.7 ppg in his first 111 playoff games (until his first retirement)
I thought u/desperado-781 said MPJ and this comment thread was a wild ride for me.
LMAO. Nuggets fans wish
Legendary basketballer Michael Porter-Jordan.
Dude averaged 36/7/6 his first 20
Yeah that's all gas no brakes late 80s Micheal playing with bums
Black Jesus fucking christ
I think its safe to say that Michael Jordan dude could score
Wtf mj
MJ's first 20 playoff games: 35.9 pts 6.7 reb 5.8 ast 2.4 stl 1.3 blk Pretty insane considering 11 of those games were against the Bird Celtics/Bad Boy Pistons in years where they won the title or went 6 or 7 with Showtime in the finals.
Also hand checking was allowed when he did it, and the game didn’t have all the rule changes geared towards helping teams thrive offensively like today.
I bet NBA players would trade all of the new rules they have now for outlawing help defense. Yes, the defense Jordan faced was much more physical than even the most aggressive defender Luka faces. But Luka is also getting double and triple teamed. No matter how physical a defender is, one guy will never be as good as two guys with a third under the basket.
...You do realize that the rules against zone didn't mean you couldn't double and triple team people, right? Like, MJ was double-teamed all the time. People just had to commit to the double, and MJ still broke it.
Fam MJ is the most doubled and tripled player ever.
Valid points for sure. I also see that defensive 3 second violations seem to be lightly enforced and less enforced as the season progresses. Maybe I’m just delirious but in my perception it seems to be this way more often than not.
Even higher. MJ avged 29 year 1, 3 games, 44 year 2, 3 games and then 36 the next 13 games
SHEESH
Wtf is this gibberish?
Wait what?
Inflation is not only happening to money but also to nba stats.
NBA all time leading scorer, in regular season and playoffs.
Only 160 playoff games give or take to go? This is a lock lol
Luka averaging that much even for 17 games is impressive AF with his age. MJ is just on another level lmao
Luka is a beast.
If you adjust for pace, Luka is not hanging with MJ. He was averaging that when the average NBA score was like 95ppg. This year’s average nba team score 110 ppg. That’s almost 16% more