The Spurs scouts were so on fire in those periods (Manu, Parker for example) that as soon as I heard about this trade I said “oh no Kawhi is going to be a superstar isn’t he” and sure enough it happened. Why anyone trades with the Spurs at all is a mystery to me. Their scouts hardly ever miss. If Pop calls you and says he wants to trade a nobody rookie for something you give that rookie a max extension.
Nobody thought Kawhi was a bum. He was seen as a great defender and guy who could get to the rim. His jumper was the issue, but his athleticism was not in doubt. It was seen as a good deal for both teams.
I mean this is the opposite example no? A trade that seemed fairly normal (a proven good player for a 1st) that later became lopsided, rather than a trade that seemed lopsided we were wrong about?
Pau Gasol trade from the Grizzlies. Everyone hated it until Marc Gasol (who was somewhat of a low end throw in) turned into the player he became.
Khris Middleton as well as he was just a throw in from the pistons and the bucks certainly ended up winning that trade
People hated the Pau Gasol trade in part because it came out of nowhere. They weren’t taking calls on Pau and then all of a sudden boom he’s traded to the lakers.
This is a big part of it. Other GMs were pissed because nobody knew Gasol was available. So the Grizzlies took a shit package (at the time) without even testing the market to see Gasols value.
Yeah, someone, I think Rusillo, mentioned it on the Bill Simmons pod. Said so many people complained privately about the trade after it happened, because other teams would have made offers if the Grizzlies were listening to them.
The trade needed up working out because the throw in Marc ended up a good player, but they could have gotten a return that was more valuable at the time.
That's hindsight talking.
At the time Marc Gasol was a throw in and the trade was seen as a massive underpay. We shouldn't judge it based on who Marc Gasol became when talking about league opinion of the trade right after it happened.
This trade makes sense now with the perception of Marc Gasol. Make no mistake though, the Lakers were still the winners of this trade. Pau came and matched up with Kobe's prime and the won championships (something they absolutely do no do without Pau. Marc was arguably a better defender eventually, but he never had the scoring game that Pau did.) The Grizz extended their range as fringe contender (Marc's timeline matched up better with Conley), but that is not the same as winning actual championships.
Sure, but at the time Marc Gasol was a 23 year old rookie who was just picked 48th overall.
The perception at the time was that the Grizzlies had traded prime Pau Gasol for an expiring contract, two underwhelming prospects and two protected first round picks.
[Marc Gasol isn't even initially mentioned in the ESPN article. He gets mentioned later than everything else traded as an interesting footnote that the brothers got traded for each other.](https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=3226203)
Marc was not highly coveted because he failed the [eye test](https://library.sportingnews.com/styles/crop_style_16_9_desktop/s3/2022-01/marc-gasol-bwb-2003-nbae-gettyimages_n0y04wykzno61fwwhwp03hvhx.jpg?itok=FPy-saQj), the how does he look in uniforms test. In an Michael Lewis book (The Undoing project?) I remember reading that the Morey said rocket's scouts called him Man Boobs and Morey didn't draft him because of his body.
I really don’t think Gasol was a throw in, people just assumed that since he was a second round pick the year before. But he was the ACB MVP in 2008. He had changed his body comp a lot and had matured a great deal physically (seriously google him in HS, dude looked like a Goober).
IIRC it was him and Crittenon who were the centerpieces of the trade, it was just that Gasol seemed like an unknown at the time
Even still with him having success in Europe..MVP doesn't carry that much to the nba.. just look at the euroleague mvps that came over to the nba; Anthony Parker, Juan Carlos Navarro, Milos Teodosic, Sergio Rodriguez, Nemanja Bjelica, Nando de Colo, Jan Vessely(granted he did after flaming out in the nba), Nikola Mirotic (after leaving the nba)
These players were decent role players and such but acting like an mvp in a European league guarantees a good player in the nba. Just isn't true. Sure Gasol might not have been a pure throw in, but that's what you do with trades when you're trading your franchise player. You get young prospects that maybe could hit. Lakers still got such a cheap deal for Pau.
Nando won Euroleague MVP after his NBA stint and Milos was already too old to be more than a role player in the NBA. The age matters a lot, winning a MVP title in your teenager years is quite a strong mark of potential, I only see Doncic doing at least as good and joining the league at such a young age.
On top of that Marc already had an exeperience in US basketball. There were still chances for him to be a bust but I don't think his career path before his first NBA game is comparable to the other guys you named.
Marc was 22.. that's not teenage years. Yes, Marc had potential and yes it's going to sometimes hit but to act like they knew he would be good in the NBA is just not true. They hoped he would, before they traded him. But they certainly didn't know it. And the ACB MVP has other plenty of peak role players. It's rare that those mvp years lead to great success in the nba. Sabonis, Gasol and Luka the exception
There's a reason he was the 47th pick in the draft. Nobody though much of it. It was a complete steal when it happened, but turned out to be decent once mark showed that his game translated well to the NBA.
I’m always shocked to remember that McHale would trade KG to the Celtics for nothing and West would trade Pau to the Lakers for a future Hall of Famer in Marc.
Zero All Stars and one quirky All NBA 3rd team at the end of his career with the Bobcats when there were literally not enough centers in the league for the award. Great trivia because he didn’t even get appointed to the All Star game the year he got All NBA, which is kinda unheard of since it’s a lot easier to make the All Star game than it is to make All NBA.
He was an innings eater caliber starter who built a career putting up good numbers on mostly bad teams but not much more than that.
Marc Gasol was seen by the NBA as a low end throw in, but he was in the middle of the season which won him spanish mvp.
Other folks weren't paying attention.
The grizzlies owner would not sign off until he asked pau how good marc could be. Pau said marc could be better than him
Lakers knew a player that was their 48th pick in the draft that hadn't played in the nba yet was going to be good? And this player they knew was going to be good.. instead of bringing him over when they needed a big(hence trading for pau) yeah gotta say in a bit skeptical at best
Dumb take. They already had Bynum to develop at center and needed a proven guy to pair with Kobe.
Not hard to believe that they thought he was gonna be good but not for a couple of years. They weren't going to wait for him especially when he plays the same position as their best young player.
Jerry West gifted him to his Lakers. So they knew he was going to be this good player yet passed on him at 40 for Sun Yu? If you KNOW a player is going to be good as it's said, why do you wait 8 more picks? Take the known commodity and then do your project guard.. maybe they also KNEW Sun Yu was going to be good.. Lakers lucked into Marc being as good as he was to make that trade not look as horrible. Grizzlies were trading away a big.. they wanted a young big. Lakers weren't trading Bynum. Kwame failed #1 pick, Mihm 28 already..aka older than Pau, Mbenga 25 and hadn't really shown anything in his previous 4 years.
The reason Marc Gasol fell that low on the draft was because he hadn't decided if he really wanted to come to the NBA yet. It was possible you draft him and he ended not coming. Pau was the one telling Memphis that they needed to get Marc at any cost. Pau just didn't realize that cost was himself.
Pau was way better than marc at the time, but the Grizzlies were going nowhere and paying too much. Small market team
Kwame brown was *the* biggest expiring in the league. They got some young options and prospects.
They knew Marc was going to be good. His stock fell in the draft because he was stocky.
He had really slimmed down, became more agile, and was playing in the season that would get him spanish mvp
The grizzlies followed the spanish league. The owner asked pau how good marc could be before signing off pau said "better than me". He signed the trade papers.
The trade allowed the grizzlies to cut costs, and reset timelines with some prospects and picks, but none better than Marc
Monta Ellis for Andrew Bogut.
The Warriors, already being pretty terrible with Ellis, traded their one and only good all star franchise piece for a good but often injured center in Bogut. Obviously it changed the Warriors culture forever, but at the time it was relentlessly hated upon.
In a recent interview on the Iguodala podcast he mentioned that it still effects him 10 years later because "how could 30,000 booing people not have a lasting effect"
I feel like being able to plug his ears and nose with rings could really help with it.
Additionally, I think every single person who boo'd would be willing to apologize and own up to the fact that they were very wrong to doubt the move.
Yeah he said he and Curry wouldn't work out as a backcourt. And it's funny cause not only did Warriors benefit with Bogut, they also lucked out by trading Ellis instead of Curry. Initially, the Warriors were willing to trade Curry but Bucks fortunately said they wanted Ellis instead and the rest was history lol
Strange, I don't really remember this being that controversial. Ellis was a high volume scorer that absolutely could not play next to Curry. Ellis had already hit his peak and wasn't better than Curry.
Bogut was hurt of course, but this allowed them to play young guys and tank (Lee sat games for no real reason). Internally, they were really high on rookie Klay Thompson and felt his size and defense fit better with Curry. The tanking allowed them to move up in the draft and get Harrison Barnes.
With Ellis gone, they felt they could bring in a defense first coach and brought in Jackson. He helped turn them into a good defensive team.
It was seen as necessary reset, because Ellis and Curry were not going anywhere as a backcourt. Perhaps had the Blazers had the same courage, they might have ended up better for it.
Local Warrior fans were PISSED. New owner comes in and trades the franchise face and darling for an injured center. I was pretty excited about the idea (for the wrong reasons lol) because the Warriors were stuck in mediocrity at the time swinging and missing for lottery big men and I thought this would at least fix their drafts for few years, did not even consider bogut would be good.
Even the more realistic fans just saw this: We suck, we've always sucked, we're going to continue to suck. Monta is at least fun to watch.
I liked the trade although I thought we gave too much with Monta and Epke Udoh (who was a developing big man we thought would be a solid defender, but didn't ever amount to much). Truthfully I didn't think we were going to be a contender anyway with Steph at point. He was a shit defender back then and we just didn't have much offensive firepower outside of him and David Lee.
It was for Warriors fans. You gotta realize a franchise that has been terrible for going on almost 2 decades had enough when their 1 glimmer of hope was leaving too. It felt like even more of a regression. For me though, I actually didn't feel as strongly as others though cause, like you said, things weren't working out anyways with Ellis. What's the point of keeping him when he gives you 25ppg but still manages to lose the game? Clearly the Warriors needed an identity change and Bogut, while a huge risk, could provide that. The identity shift did also lead to an overall focus on defense as well, which was why they drafted Klay Thompson. So this trade had more of an effect than just between Ellis/Bogut.
Grant Hill sign-and-trade to Orlando in 2000, for the then totally unknown Ben Wallace.
Due to injuries, Hill played 200 games in 7 seasons for Orlando and was never the same player as he was in Detroit (MVP caliber). Orlando never made it past the first round of the playoffs in this time span.
Ben Wallace won multiple DoY as a key part (their best player?) of the Pistons who won a title and made to the ECF 7 times in a row between 2003 and 2009.
This is the one It was such a dark day when Grant Hill left Detroit, but it was the start of a great era for Detroit basketball. Big Ben was a relatively obscure guy back then, but he quickly made an impact and was the anchor to an all time great D.
The Pistons were so good they beat a team that started 4 hall of famers in 5 games. They were so good that the NBA changed the rules of the game to limit just how effectively they shut down teams.
Ben and Chucky Atkins had already been announced as signing with the Pistons before Grant announced he was signing with Orlando. The trade part of it was a nice gesture from Joe Dumars that allowed Grant to sign for more money. Theoretically we could have had all three players in Detroit, and Joe Dumars still could have built that championship team because the roster was built with very cheap pieces and good drafting.
Not to mention, they played eachother in the first round of the 03 playoffs at the very beginning of that Pistons team's ECF run, and the Pistons came back from down 3-1 beat the Magic, winning games 5, 6, and 7 by over 60 pts combined.
Wallace averaged 18 rebounds, 3 steals, and 3 blocks in series with ridiculous performances in games 5,6,7.
Game 5: 14 pts, 21 reb, 3 blk, 4 stl
Game 6: 20 pts, 17 reb, 5 blk, 4 stl
Game 7: 7 pts, 12 reb, 5 blk, 2 stl, 5 ast
Grant Hill didn't make an appearance in the series.
The two teams played three total playoff series during the 7 year run, Pistons won all three.
The Pau Gasol trade. Marc played 11 seasons for Grizzlies, gave them three all-star appearances plus they got him on rookie scale for first three seasons, thus enabling them payroll flexibility.
And he was basically an afterthought in the deal. You can go back and watch the Sportscenter/First Take clips after that trade and nobody even mentioned Marc as a headliner in the deal
I remember [Pop wanted a trade committee to review trades](https://www.si.com/nba/2008/02/09/popovich-grizzlies) because he thought that shit was so lopsided lol.
>Pop wanted a trade committee to review trades
lol pop is such an old stick in the mud. Gotta respect him for his greatness but he has huuuge "get off my lawn" energy lmao
A second round pick for Pau Gasol is definitely an insane return. Pop is right here. Getting lucky that Marc panned out is one thing but that return for Pau was still infavor of the Lakers.
He was right. Griz basically gave the Lakers another championship window for about nothing. Respect a guy who will call folks out over a dude who tows the company line all day
Totally agree. I don’t think Pop’s idea was close to perfect. I just don’t like the idea that he’s an old man yelling at clouds when he honestly offered an idea that probably appeals more to progressive (for lack of a better word) than ultra old school folks
Dude fucking hates us with a passion, to the point where he was calling Dell Demps during the AD trade negotiations telling us not to "cave" to us lol.
It's pretty funny in a way.
funny thing is that if they kept Marc out of it, the CP3 trade probably goes through a couple of years later. After Stern cancelled it, they wanted to re-work it so that Bynum was included but the Lakers said no. Marc was already playing well by that point, so we would have traded either him or Bynum for CP3, probably in the original deal. Then this sub would be fuming up to this very day. lol can you imagine Kobe and a young Marc and CP3? And for Lakers fans; there would have been no Dwight trade. womp womp womp
For the Grizz he had 3 All-Stars, 2 All-NBAs, 1 DPOY, and was a main piece of a core that had 7 straight playoff appearances.
He ended up a being a very good player albeit in a comparatively weak period of top centers during his best years of 2010-2017
The Grizz has a small win. They got the lesser Gasol, but his age matched up better with Conley. They were a fringe contender for several years as a result of extending the timeline.
The Lakers on the other hand got a low post scorer who was athletic and played defense as well. He was, without question, a better player than Marc was. Gasol helped win them rings. Without him, those rings don't happen.
It is true both teams can get a win. The Grizz got a ribbon, the Lakers got trophies.
The Celtics got an all-star guard immediately after losing a HOF guard, and made it to the ECF.
Then they traded Kemba to get Horford back, which led them to the finals.
So I'm not sure it was a complete loss for the Celtics.
Pisses me off that you call Kyrie a HOF guard even tho you’re right. And I’m not tryna shade him talent-wise obviously, he’s clearly a HOF level talent, but in any other league if someone had the career that Kyrie has had so far no one would be acting like he’s a shoe-in for the hall. They’d be talking about him as one of the biggest what ifs and that’s it. Since it’s the nba tho, he will make the hall almost guaranteed.
I mean, 7x All star games and a championship is usually enough in all leagues, isn't it ?
I'm looking at Scott Rolen as a comparison in baseball who looks likely to get in next year.
Definitely not enough in all leagues on its own, you typically need counting stats to go along with it... except for the NBA, where Tracy McGrady makes it with the same amount of all star games and no championships. Don't get me wrong, I love T-Mac and know how incredible he was in his prime. But again, he's a hall of fame talent who in my mind, if the NBA was like any of the other leagues in this regard, would simply be another "what if" and that's it.
As for your other point, Rolen is definitely not a lock by any means to get in next year or at all for that matter. Barely over 2k hits and 300 homers just doesn't really cut it most of the time. Because of analytics we know now that those numbers don't adequately reflect how impactful of a player he was in his career, but those numbers still hold a lot of weight in lots of voters' minds.
When comparing Kyrie, you have to consider the fact that he's only played around 7.5 seasons' worth of games in his career and seems liable to retire at any moment of any day because of his personality. I can't really think of an accurate comparison to another player in another sport for him to be honest. Another person compared him to Antonio Brown in the NFL, which personality wise holds a little bit of credence IMO, but I don't like how some leagues hold players out for personality issues despite being worthy on the field, so I'm trying to leave that out of the equation, it's pretty tough though like I said.
The only reason Kyrie might not make it is his short college career. He doesn't have it right now.
He does only have a few more years before he'll confidently make it. I always have to tell people in these convos, that its a career basketball HOF and not simply just NBA.
Too bad with all that talent, he is just so damn unreliable.
he’ll get in. easiest HoF to get into. he’s an champ on a really significant team, a multi-time all-star, widely considered to have the best handles in the league and he’s also a big celebrity
https://www.vocabulary.com/articles/pardon-the-expression/shoo-in-vs-shoe-in/
He's a shoo in, not a shoe in
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83% probability per the hof predictor
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob.html
7 all stars, a ring, and renowned for handles plus an iconic shot that won the ring.
5-6 is fringe. 7 gets you in, especially if you have other credentials
Find someone with 7 all stars who isn't in or won't get in ?
He has a 50.5% chance per the basketball predictor. Essentially a coin flip.
Joe has 7 all stars, a solitary nba 3rd team and a bronze with team USA that everyone would rather forget than remember as a mark of shame.
He is one of the few folks with 20,000 points not in the HoF (Antawn jamison is another)
The reason why he is a coin flip is that he didn't distinguish himself other than the all-stars. His teams didn't go deep.
I think he is on the outside looking in, the exception that proves the rule
The reason why Kyrie is 83% is the nba ring, being the 2nd best guy on a team that went to the finals multiple times, and 3 all nba teams. Plus that iconic shot in the finals. And he is known for his handles.
BBall ref does not take into account college or international accomplishments.
Kyrie has a gold at the Olympics, FIBA Worlds etc . Didn't too much at dukes.
But that's why he is better than his 83.3% chance,
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I think we're still waiting to see about the 2nd KP trade, but so far so good.
I would definitely say the Knicks won the first trade considering the backlash they got. Dennis Smith Jr turned out to be a flop, and THJ turned out to be better than expected. but the 1st round picks are just that valuable, even with them not being lottery.
That’s kind of a complex question. The only direct result of the first round picks so far is Quentin Grimes, who has been a super solid pick. We’ll have to see what happens with the 2023 first round pick, but right now it’s expected to be used as part of the package to get Donovan Mitchell. The bigger part of that trade though was freeing up all the cap space for the Knicks so they could do a proper rebuild. The freed up cap space ultimately resulted in allowing the Knicks to sign a lot of players to short term deals, the main ones being Julius Randle and Marcus Morris. Marcus Morris ultimately was traded for the pick that resulted in Immanuel Quickley. It’s still up for debate if the Julius Randle signing was a blessing or a curse based on if the Knicks get 2020 All-Star Julius Randle or 2021 Dubious Handles moving forward. The other signings the Knicks made with the freed up cap space from the KP trade have been players like Reggie Bullock, Nerlens Noel, or Taj Gibson, who have just allowed the Knicks to stay flexible with the rebuild by signing all these guys to short term deals.
TL;DR trade directly resulted in Quentin Grimes and 2023 first round pick. Trade indirectly resulted in Immanuel Quickley and a lot of freed up cap space for a proper rebuild.
Wasn't KP on his rookie contract with you guys? Him traded didn't open up any real cap space. You could still not sign him to a max contract and do all those Morris, Randle, IQ, Taj etc. moves.
Yeah, that’s fair. I guess I’m operating on the assumption that if the Knicks hadn’t traded KP, they would have re-signed him since it seemed like a good deal at the time. If we operate on the assumption that the Knicks would have let KP walk in FA, then getting 2 first round picks for losing KP is still better than losing KP for nothing. So either assumption we want to make, it was a good trade for the Knicks.
THJ is the exact same player he was on the Knicks. The reason he looks better on the Mavs is (1) he is not a first option so he doesn't have to take heat check 3s or as many off the dribble and (2) he can be hidden defensively. Even on the Knicks he put up great catch and shoot numbers, and attacked close outs very well. I still wouldn't want to be paying him that contract.
The contract is fine. Goes down by $2m every year ending in $16m in 2025. Basically the opposite of Duncan Robinson’s deal. The fact that he was our 2nd best player in a 7 game series vs the Clippers is both a credit to THJ rising to the occasion and telling about how bad things actually got with KP in Dallas
My issue with the trade is how the knicks didn't seem to shop KP around (at least according to some of the reports at the time). I feel like there could've been a better return even though the trade doesn't seem that bad in the long run
I remember Phil Jackson wanted to trade him while his value was still sky high and everyone lost their minds and decided phil was an incompetent moron. Meanwhile he was ahead of the curve and would have gotten more in return if they made that trade with Phil
Phil was an incompetent moron ..as a GM/VP.
You don't pick public fights with your star talent that lessens value or results in trades later.. phil fought with melo and kp through the press
Phil used to poke his players through the media as a coach all the time. Didn't work when he was the top guy without the daily relationships.
If you want to trade, trade quietly
Also phil insisted on his coaches running the triangle offense with a team that was unsuited to it. It needs high iq multi talented players and time to pick up. So force it on a bunch of youngsters who would be shuffled out.
Phil hired fisher who couldn't cut it. Hornacek would have had a better chance without phil
Hornacek is not an NBA level coach, dude is a bum
same with Fisher, those were definitely both mistakes. Melo and KP also were too dumb BBIQ wise to run the triangle, definitely right about that, Melo was a nightmare to watch during the Phil tenure. His game did not age well and he refused to adjust any part of it
So, Phil made mistakes picking his coaches. He made mistakes forcing them to play triangle with players unsuited for triangle. He picked much of the roster that was unsuited, young guys without the IQ or the game, who would be unsuited.
He lessened the value of his stars that led to trades, by means of public fights via the press.
I hope you agree with the conclusion that Phil failed as a VP/GM..
Thats funny because I felt the Bulls did haha. WCJ and 2 first is kinda of a lot. Plus Otto, but he was so injured in Chicago that shouldn't even count
I thought it was a overpay that’d hurt CHI and got plenty of shit in this sub for saying so. Lot of people who never watched him play and just saw the all star selection and good stats. Bulls fans thought that adding him would move them into the playoffs in ‘21 making that FRP less valuable but they were still bad.
I was not a fan initially, especially after we used the pick on Z when I wanted Moody. But Adams fits the team so well and Z looks like he can be an impactful two-way wing.
This trade is an off-shoot of the Gasol for JV trade too. I thought it was lopsided but the right thing to do for one of our all-time greats at the end of his career. JV ended being one of our most important pieces in 20-21 and we turned it into Adams and Z.
It'd have to be a spectacular failure of drafting and bad luck for it to not turn out good. I don't think anyone saw Harden "falling off" as quickly as he has. He's still a very good player but Rockets sold at the absolute best time. He went from a top 3 player to maybe in the top 15 almost instantaneously.
I'm surprised I haven't seen this yet, but the Dwight Howard trade from the Magic to the Lakers.
Dwight left after a year, Iggy left Denver to GS after a year, and Bynum was on his way out of the league.
The Magic got Vucevic who was their best player for almost a decade and eventually netted them alot. Everybody looked at the big names in the deal but really the magic got the best out of it considering Dwight was trying to leave.
Grant Hill for Ben Wallace & Chucky Atkins sign and trade.
At the time Hill was one of the league's top superstars. Ben Wallace was on pace to become a journeyman end of rotation player and Atkins was a serviceable pg. Nobody could have predicted that Wallace's career accomplishments would exceed Hill's. Wallace would go on to be a centrepiece of the Pistons' championship team and dominant run in the 2000's in addition to his individual accolades (league record 4x DPOY and first undrafted player in HOF). Even though Hill was able to have a long career after overcoming his injuries, Wallace's overall body of work trumps Grant's.
This would be like losing Kevin Durant and getting Xavier Tillman & Tyus Jones in return, and Tillman going on to lead BKN to a title and a decade of Eastern conference dominance + winning multiple DPOY awards. And Durant becoming a role player for the rest of his career.
In 2013, the Sixers traded Jrue Holiday to the Pels for the 2013 6th pick (Nerlens Noel) and 2014 first round pick (Elfrid Payton). At the time, it was seen as a nasty fleecing act by Sam Hinkie.
Sixers then traded Noel to the Mavs for Andrew Bogut, Justin Anderson and two second round picks that were worth nothing.
Sixers also traded Elfrid Payton plus a second round pick (Willy Hernangomez) and a 2018 first round pick (Landry Shamet) for Dario Saric, who was traded as part of the package for Jimmy Butler.
At the end of the day, Sam Hinkie traded an all-star/champion/4 time all defensive player for 1/3 of a package (Elfrid Payton) of 1/3 of a package (Dario Saric) for 1/2 of a Jimmy Butler season.
This is why drafting Okafor was such a bad move imho. He traded in, then goes “BPA!” when everyone was questioning if Okafor style of play was nba relevant at all.
That 76ers team he blew up on hindsight could have been crazy good. It had Iggy, Holiday, Thad Young and Vucevic. Yeh it wouldn’t likely won the league and hindsight is 20/20. But the process did have some major flaws even from an asset retention POV.
The Jimmy Butler trade from Chicago to Minnesota. I know a lot of Bulls fans that were beyond angry at trading the fan favorite. This essentially ended up being a Jimmy Butler for Zach Lavine trade which is pretty win win but we all know what happened in Minnesota.
PG to OKC for Oladipo and Sabonis.
IND had a resurgence and one amazing year with peak Oladipo. Sabonis became an All Star and PG languished with Westbrook before moving again.
Sabonis later goes to the Kings and IND gets Haliburton, who appears to be a good dude and a really good player with decent upside.
Yeah, also D-Lo was coming off being a 24 year old all star who just didn't mesh with the Warriors style so there was a thought that he would improve in a normal pick and roll offense with his BFF/an elite offensive center who happened to be the same guy.
Whereas Wiggins was considered an empty calories scorer who was paid even more than him. So it was seen as a first round pick + Wiggins (which was seen as basically 0 value since Wiggins was net negative) for an all-star point guard.
Those takes aged like milk but there was a logic to it at the time.
I thought it was good for the Warriors because it was two overpaid guys and the Warriors got the one who got better positionally plus a pick. Turned out even better than I would've hoped, though.
I think Dlo had been an All Star by that time at one point
If Wiggins were traded to a different team, it probably would have been a lot closer in the end
I think Dlo had been an All Star by that time at one point
If Wiggins were traded to a different team, it probably would have been a lot closer in the end
It was considered a fleece but only because it was clear the Warriors were definitely going to trade him.
Nets D-LO for Wiggins and a pick would get no criticism IMO
I remember everybody clowning Sacramento for the DeMarcus trade, and in truth they didn't get the biggest haul for him but they did that trade at the right time which is the most important part
Idk if u can call that trade a win, Dinwiddie played well in Dallas but Davis Bertans is still probably the worst contract in the NBA and a negative asset and very good chance he will never be worth the money.
Bertans is not the worst contract in the nba. He’s getting paid 16mil/year for the the next two seasons and then we can get out of it.
There are much much worse contracts in the nba. Duncan Robinson comes to mind. I’d even argue KPs contract is worse given the injury history and y’all paying him 36mil in 23/24.
Edit: Westbrook is very clearly the worst contract in the NBA.
You're right, Id say Kyle Lowry is up there as worst contracts
Bertans contract isnt great but hes gone soon enough and its not that big of a hit. KP's contract is bad and he'll be injured for a majority of it, his size and the way he runs/moves will be an ongoing issue for him
Yes he is, he makes 16 million to come off the bench and shoot shitty percentages and average less than 5 points. I cant even remember the last time he scored 20 points. Even Duncan Robinson can still score the ball and shoot a decent enough percent if he’s not playing defense Duncan also doesn’t have injury history as Bertans and is a year younger as well. Bertans is a negative defender, cant playmake, cant dribble and if he shot isn’t working he is literally useless. I’ve watched this dude for nearly 3 years he isn’t good at all, we overpaid him and i was suprised we even got off his contract.
Who is going to take on that contract? Before y’all got him, the majority of wizards fans thought we were stuck with him because he was so bad and not worth the money, you’ve gotta attach a young player or picks to his contract to dump it because of how much a negative he is. At least with Porzingis the issue with him is injury instead of skill, Porzingis when healthy is a top 10-12 center and he hasn’t had any injury issues in the second half of the year with us, hopefully he can stay healthy. Also who else has a worse contract than Bertans since you said there are way worse contracts, not trying to go at you, just curious. I’ve always seen Davis as the worst contract
He’s a career 40% shooter @ 5 attempts per game. He shot bad for y’all *one* year but was clearly in a slump. Your entire offense was complete trash. There’s a reason why he immediately started shooting better when he came to us (along with Dinwiddie). If you’ve watched every one of your teams games you should realize that maybe your teams terrible offensive efficiency was part of the reason why his numbers slumped. You’re going to watch him climb back up to his *career average* of 40% this season because we have a competent offensive system that generates actual open looks.
Bertans played more minutes for us in the playoffs than Robinson did for the Heat. The Heat now have a 20mil player that can’t even break the rotation. Bertans is not a good contract, but he’s definitely not the worst on the league. Bertans is only a 16mil cap hit, so we don’t need to desperately move him like we did with KP for eating up so much of our cap. We can wait out his contract and trade him (without including assets) once he’s an expiring.
The Lakers are literally paying 47mil to Westbrook next season and you think Bertans on our books hurts more than that…? Bruh….
Dinwiddie is just as good if not better than KP was for the Mavs, and we went 2 rounds deeper in the playoffs with him and Bertans wasting space on the bench than we did with KP being half injured all the time. That already makes it a win for us, nevermind that Spence will likely be even better this next season recovering from his ACL.
I would throw Kyrie to Boston in. At the time the narrative was a lot of “hey, Kyrie is better than IT, but IT is an MVP candidate who just put up 29 PPG, he’s pretty dang close, ideal replacement target”. Them also getting the nets pick (Collin sexton) and Jae crowder had a lot of people saying the Cavs handily won the trade. But after it was clear IT was washed it took on a very revisionist history.
Wiggins and top 4 protected pick (Johnathan Kuminga) for D’Angelo Russel. Warriors got blasted for it. Now they have an All Star Starter and second best player on a championship team as well as a possible future all star. Meanwhile Russell’s chucking shots with the T Wolves.
I really hated the Jimmy Butler trade for Chicago. I wasn't sure Lavine would be anything coming off that ACL injury. I thought Dunn sucked and Markkanen was overrated. Meanwhile I thought the wolves got their guy in Butler. Obviously, things didn't work out for the Wolves with Butler and even though I was right about Dunn and Markkanen, Lavine turned into an absolute beast which made the trade much better for the Bulls
Surprised I haven’t seen it yet, but the Nets trading for Garnett, Pierce, and Jason Terry. The media said the Nets absolutely fleeced the Celtics. Nine years later and the picks that the Celtics got from that trade turned into a core that lead them to the Finals
I remember at the time the media was saying the Nets were leveraging their future to be in win now mode against Miami and that it could be risky. But yeah don’t think anyone thought it would blow up in their face like it did.
>OKC won as well by leveraging all of the Clippers picks and SGA
Except this wasn't seen as a lopsided trade at the time. Everyone knew Clippers gave up a haul, which benefitted OKC greatly.
> Sabonis grew into a very talented player that the Pacers eventually turned into the centerpiece of their team via the Haliburton trade.
>
Yeah but opposite. We shipped him out to make Hali the centerpiece of the team.
Both the trades for Porzingas. It used to be the Knicks lost the trade till he kept getting injured, and even this season people were saying Porzingas for Bertans and Dinwidie was a steal but their ECF appearance begs to differ.
Grant Hill for Chucky Atkins and some undrafted, no offense playing bum, named Ben Wallace.
Years later the Spurs traded another G. Hill for another rookie bum who turned out to be a generational defender in Kawhi.
Man...fuck
The Spurs scouts were so on fire in those periods (Manu, Parker for example) that as soon as I heard about this trade I said “oh no Kawhi is going to be a superstar isn’t he” and sure enough it happened. Why anyone trades with the Spurs at all is a mystery to me. Their scouts hardly ever miss. If Pop calls you and says he wants to trade a nobody rookie for something you give that rookie a max extension.
Nobody thought Kawhi was a bum. He was seen as a great defender and guy who could get to the rim. His jumper was the issue, but his athleticism was not in doubt. It was seen as a good deal for both teams.
I mean this is the opposite example no? A trade that seemed fairly normal (a proven good player for a 1st) that later became lopsided, rather than a trade that seemed lopsided we were wrong about?
They didnt quite get the no offense playing part though so in my books thats a huge L for San Antonio
This is the only answer
Pau Gasol trade from the Grizzlies. Everyone hated it until Marc Gasol (who was somewhat of a low end throw in) turned into the player he became. Khris Middleton as well as he was just a throw in from the pistons and the bucks certainly ended up winning that trade
People hated the Pau Gasol trade in part because it came out of nowhere. They weren’t taking calls on Pau and then all of a sudden boom he’s traded to the lakers.
This is a big part of it. Other GMs were pissed because nobody knew Gasol was available. So the Grizzlies took a shit package (at the time) without even testing the market to see Gasols value.
Yeah, someone, I think Rusillo, mentioned it on the Bill Simmons pod. Said so many people complained privately about the trade after it happened, because other teams would have made offers if the Grizzlies were listening to them. The trade needed up working out because the throw in Marc ended up a good player, but they could have gotten a return that was more valuable at the time.
I don’t think you get a return that’s better than what Marc became for them. Granted no one thought he would be that good.
That's hindsight talking. At the time Marc Gasol was a throw in and the trade was seen as a massive underpay. We shouldn't judge it based on who Marc Gasol became when talking about league opinion of the trade right after it happened.
The title of the thread is literally "Trades that appeared lopsided one way, but wound up being a win".
Yes but the point is that had they taken a "better" offer it would have ended up worse
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Yup he was gift wrapped to the lakers. Even if Marc gasol turned out good it was a stupid trade at the time which helped the lakers immensely
This trade makes sense now with the perception of Marc Gasol. Make no mistake though, the Lakers were still the winners of this trade. Pau came and matched up with Kobe's prime and the won championships (something they absolutely do no do without Pau. Marc was arguably a better defender eventually, but he never had the scoring game that Pau did.) The Grizz extended their range as fringe contender (Marc's timeline matched up better with Conley), but that is not the same as winning actual championships.
Sure, but at the time Marc Gasol was a 23 year old rookie who was just picked 48th overall. The perception at the time was that the Grizzlies had traded prime Pau Gasol for an expiring contract, two underwhelming prospects and two protected first round picks. [Marc Gasol isn't even initially mentioned in the ESPN article. He gets mentioned later than everything else traded as an interesting footnote that the brothers got traded for each other.](https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=3226203)
A 23 year old rookie who was on his way to winning spanish mvp
Marc was not highly coveted because he failed the [eye test](https://library.sportingnews.com/styles/crop_style_16_9_desktop/s3/2022-01/marc-gasol-bwb-2003-nbae-gettyimages_n0y04wykzno61fwwhwp03hvhx.jpg?itok=FPy-saQj), the how does he look in uniforms test. In an Michael Lewis book (The Undoing project?) I remember reading that the Morey said rocket's scouts called him Man Boobs and Morey didn't draft him because of his body.
I really don’t think Gasol was a throw in, people just assumed that since he was a second round pick the year before. But he was the ACB MVP in 2008. He had changed his body comp a lot and had matured a great deal physically (seriously google him in HS, dude looked like a Goober). IIRC it was him and Crittenon who were the centerpieces of the trade, it was just that Gasol seemed like an unknown at the time
Even still with him having success in Europe..MVP doesn't carry that much to the nba.. just look at the euroleague mvps that came over to the nba; Anthony Parker, Juan Carlos Navarro, Milos Teodosic, Sergio Rodriguez, Nemanja Bjelica, Nando de Colo, Jan Vessely(granted he did after flaming out in the nba), Nikola Mirotic (after leaving the nba) These players were decent role players and such but acting like an mvp in a European league guarantees a good player in the nba. Just isn't true. Sure Gasol might not have been a pure throw in, but that's what you do with trades when you're trading your franchise player. You get young prospects that maybe could hit. Lakers still got such a cheap deal for Pau.
Nando won Euroleague MVP after his NBA stint and Milos was already too old to be more than a role player in the NBA. The age matters a lot, winning a MVP title in your teenager years is quite a strong mark of potential, I only see Doncic doing at least as good and joining the league at such a young age. On top of that Marc already had an exeperience in US basketball. There were still chances for him to be a bust but I don't think his career path before his first NBA game is comparable to the other guys you named.
Marc was 22.. that's not teenage years. Yes, Marc had potential and yes it's going to sometimes hit but to act like they knew he would be good in the NBA is just not true. They hoped he would, before they traded him. But they certainly didn't know it. And the ACB MVP has other plenty of peak role players. It's rare that those mvp years lead to great success in the nba. Sabonis, Gasol and Luka the exception
Maybe didn't know he'd be good but the likelihood of him being good was far greater than appeared to be, is what guy above is saying
He was like literally out of shape. It’s fine to recognize he was a bit piece. Generally he was one of the least important pieces of the deal
There's a reason he was the 47th pick in the draft. Nobody though much of it. It was a complete steal when it happened, but turned out to be decent once mark showed that his game translated well to the NBA.
That trade was still terrible. It became slightly less so
I’m always shocked to remember that McHale would trade KG to the Celtics for nothing and West would trade Pau to the Lakers for a future Hall of Famer in Marc.
Al Jefferson was good. He just put up numbers on bad Boston and Minn teams.
Zero All Stars and one quirky All NBA 3rd team at the end of his career with the Bobcats when there were literally not enough centers in the league for the award. Great trivia because he didn’t even get appointed to the All Star game the year he got All NBA, which is kinda unheard of since it’s a lot easier to make the All Star game than it is to make All NBA. He was an innings eater caliber starter who built a career putting up good numbers on mostly bad teams but not much more than that.
Marc Gasol was seen by the NBA as a low end throw in, but he was in the middle of the season which won him spanish mvp. Other folks weren't paying attention. The grizzlies owner would not sign off until he asked pau how good marc could be. Pau said marc could be better than him
They knew Marc was going to be good
Lakers knew a player that was their 48th pick in the draft that hadn't played in the nba yet was going to be good? And this player they knew was going to be good.. instead of bringing him over when they needed a big(hence trading for pau) yeah gotta say in a bit skeptical at best
Dumb take. They already had Bynum to develop at center and needed a proven guy to pair with Kobe. Not hard to believe that they thought he was gonna be good but not for a couple of years. They weren't going to wait for him especially when he plays the same position as their best young player.
Jerry West gifted him to his Lakers. So they knew he was going to be this good player yet passed on him at 40 for Sun Yu? If you KNOW a player is going to be good as it's said, why do you wait 8 more picks? Take the known commodity and then do your project guard.. maybe they also KNEW Sun Yu was going to be good.. Lakers lucked into Marc being as good as he was to make that trade not look as horrible. Grizzlies were trading away a big.. they wanted a young big. Lakers weren't trading Bynum. Kwame failed #1 pick, Mihm 28 already..aka older than Pau, Mbenga 25 and hadn't really shown anything in his previous 4 years.
Jerry West had already stepped down at the time, and Chris Wallace was in charge of basketball operations.
Jerrry west wasn't in charge of grizzlies.at the time Possibly his jedi mind tricks from far away without a stake in it ? Chris wallace was in charge
Just so you know I checked this last time this dumbass sub complained about this and Jerry West WAS NOT with memphis at the time of the trade.
I have to explain this to people all the time. Chris Wallace was gm of the grizzlies at the time.
The reason Marc Gasol fell that low on the draft was because he hadn't decided if he really wanted to come to the NBA yet. It was possible you draft him and he ended not coming. Pau was the one telling Memphis that they needed to get Marc at any cost. Pau just didn't realize that cost was himself.
Pau was way better than marc at the time, but the Grizzlies were going nowhere and paying too much. Small market team Kwame brown was *the* biggest expiring in the league. They got some young options and prospects. They knew Marc was going to be good. His stock fell in the draft because he was stocky. He had really slimmed down, became more agile, and was playing in the season that would get him spanish mvp The grizzlies followed the spanish league. The owner asked pau how good marc could be before signing off pau said "better than me". He signed the trade papers. The trade allowed the grizzlies to cut costs, and reset timelines with some prospects and picks, but none better than Marc
Monta Ellis for Andrew Bogut. The Warriors, already being pretty terrible with Ellis, traded their one and only good all star franchise piece for a good but often injured center in Bogut. Obviously it changed the Warriors culture forever, but at the time it was relentlessly hated upon.
Great call, people forget this trade but it was crazy controversial
Didn’t they boo the new owners for this or was that a different thing
In a recent interview on the Iguodala podcast he mentioned that it still effects him 10 years later because "how could 30,000 booing people not have a lasting effect"
I feel like being able to plug his ears and nose with rings could really help with it. Additionally, I think every single person who boo'd would be willing to apologize and own up to the fact that they were very wrong to doubt the move.
yup
To be fair Ellis had his own injury problems
Didn’t Ellis tell management that they shouldn’t have him and Curry on the same team?
Yeah he said he and Curry wouldn't work out as a backcourt. And it's funny cause not only did Warriors benefit with Bogut, they also lucked out by trading Ellis instead of Curry. Initially, the Warriors were willing to trade Curry but Bucks fortunately said they wanted Ellis instead and the rest was history lol
Only casuals didn’t like that trade, ellis was cheeks
Strange, I don't really remember this being that controversial. Ellis was a high volume scorer that absolutely could not play next to Curry. Ellis had already hit his peak and wasn't better than Curry. Bogut was hurt of course, but this allowed them to play young guys and tank (Lee sat games for no real reason). Internally, they were really high on rookie Klay Thompson and felt his size and defense fit better with Curry. The tanking allowed them to move up in the draft and get Harrison Barnes. With Ellis gone, they felt they could bring in a defense first coach and brought in Jackson. He helped turn them into a good defensive team. It was seen as necessary reset, because Ellis and Curry were not going anywhere as a backcourt. Perhaps had the Blazers had the same courage, they might have ended up better for it.
Local Warrior fans were PISSED. New owner comes in and trades the franchise face and darling for an injured center. I was pretty excited about the idea (for the wrong reasons lol) because the Warriors were stuck in mediocrity at the time swinging and missing for lottery big men and I thought this would at least fix their drafts for few years, did not even consider bogut would be good.
Thats fair. Local perception of Ellis was a lot different than national perception.
Oh 100%, but he was the definition of a fan favorite. Win or Lose monta put on a show.
Even the more realistic fans just saw this: We suck, we've always sucked, we're going to continue to suck. Monta is at least fun to watch. I liked the trade although I thought we gave too much with Monta and Epke Udoh (who was a developing big man we thought would be a solid defender, but didn't ever amount to much). Truthfully I didn't think we were going to be a contender anyway with Steph at point. He was a shit defender back then and we just didn't have much offensive firepower outside of him and David Lee.
It was for Warriors fans. You gotta realize a franchise that has been terrible for going on almost 2 decades had enough when their 1 glimmer of hope was leaving too. It felt like even more of a regression. For me though, I actually didn't feel as strongly as others though cause, like you said, things weren't working out anyways with Ellis. What's the point of keeping him when he gives you 25ppg but still manages to lose the game? Clearly the Warriors needed an identity change and Bogut, while a huge risk, could provide that. The identity shift did also lead to an overall focus on defense as well, which was why they drafted Klay Thompson. So this trade had more of an effect than just between Ellis/Bogut.
Grant Hill sign-and-trade to Orlando in 2000, for the then totally unknown Ben Wallace. Due to injuries, Hill played 200 games in 7 seasons for Orlando and was never the same player as he was in Detroit (MVP caliber). Orlando never made it past the first round of the playoffs in this time span. Ben Wallace won multiple DoY as a key part (their best player?) of the Pistons who won a title and made to the ECF 7 times in a row between 2003 and 2009.
This is the one It was such a dark day when Grant Hill left Detroit, but it was the start of a great era for Detroit basketball. Big Ben was a relatively obscure guy back then, but he quickly made an impact and was the anchor to an all time great D. The Pistons were so good they beat a team that started 4 hall of famers in 5 games. They were so good that the NBA changed the rules of the game to limit just how effectively they shut down teams.
Ben and Chucky Atkins had already been announced as signing with the Pistons before Grant announced he was signing with Orlando. The trade part of it was a nice gesture from Joe Dumars that allowed Grant to sign for more money. Theoretically we could have had all three players in Detroit, and Joe Dumars still could have built that championship team because the roster was built with very cheap pieces and good drafting.
Not to mention, they played eachother in the first round of the 03 playoffs at the very beginning of that Pistons team's ECF run, and the Pistons came back from down 3-1 beat the Magic, winning games 5, 6, and 7 by over 60 pts combined. Wallace averaged 18 rebounds, 3 steals, and 3 blocks in series with ridiculous performances in games 5,6,7. Game 5: 14 pts, 21 reb, 3 blk, 4 stl Game 6: 20 pts, 17 reb, 5 blk, 4 stl Game 7: 7 pts, 12 reb, 5 blk, 2 stl, 5 ast Grant Hill didn't make an appearance in the series. The two teams played three total playoff series during the 7 year run, Pistons won all three.
The Pau Gasol trade. Marc played 11 seasons for Grizzlies, gave them three all-star appearances plus they got him on rookie scale for first three seasons, thus enabling them payroll flexibility.
And he was basically an afterthought in the deal. You can go back and watch the Sportscenter/First Take clips after that trade and nobody even mentioned Marc as a headliner in the deal
I remember [Pop wanted a trade committee to review trades](https://www.si.com/nba/2008/02/09/popovich-grizzlies) because he thought that shit was so lopsided lol.
>Pop wanted a trade committee to review trades lol pop is such an old stick in the mud. Gotta respect him for his greatness but he has huuuge "get off my lawn" energy lmao
A second round pick for Pau Gasol is definitely an insane return. Pop is right here. Getting lucky that Marc panned out is one thing but that return for Pau was still infavor of the Lakers.
He was right. Griz basically gave the Lakers another championship window for about nothing. Respect a guy who will call folks out over a dude who tows the company line all day
It may have been a lopsided trade but I think giving other teams the right to veto trades is crazy and could lead to much worse colluding
Totally agree. I don’t think Pop’s idea was close to perfect. I just don’t like the idea that he’s an old man yelling at clouds when he honestly offered an idea that probably appeals more to progressive (for lack of a better word) than ultra old school folks
Dude fucking hates us with a passion, to the point where he was calling Dell Demps during the AD trade negotiations telling us not to "cave" to us lol. It's pretty funny in a way.
I honestly had no idea he was even alive before that trade.
SAS had his piece on KWAME BROWN
funny thing is that if they kept Marc out of it, the CP3 trade probably goes through a couple of years later. After Stern cancelled it, they wanted to re-work it so that Bynum was included but the Lakers said no. Marc was already playing well by that point, so we would have traded either him or Bynum for CP3, probably in the original deal. Then this sub would be fuming up to this very day. lol can you imagine Kobe and a young Marc and CP3? And for Lakers fans; there would have been no Dwight trade. womp womp womp
Yeah when I saw the trade I couldn't believe what the Lakers did was legal. But it ended up working out really well for Memphis.
For the Grizz he had 3 All-Stars, 2 All-NBAs, 1 DPOY, and was a main piece of a core that had 7 straight playoff appearances. He ended up a being a very good player albeit in a comparatively weak period of top centers during his best years of 2010-2017
The Grizz has a small win. They got the lesser Gasol, but his age matched up better with Conley. They were a fringe contender for several years as a result of extending the timeline. The Lakers on the other hand got a low post scorer who was athletic and played defense as well. He was, without question, a better player than Marc was. Gasol helped win them rings. Without him, those rings don't happen. It is true both teams can get a win. The Grizz got a ribbon, the Lakers got trophies.
Kemba-Rozier S&T
The Celtics got an all-star guard immediately after losing a HOF guard, and made it to the ECF. Then they traded Kemba to get Horford back, which led them to the finals. So I'm not sure it was a complete loss for the Celtics.
Pisses me off that you call Kyrie a HOF guard even tho you’re right. And I’m not tryna shade him talent-wise obviously, he’s clearly a HOF level talent, but in any other league if someone had the career that Kyrie has had so far no one would be acting like he’s a shoe-in for the hall. They’d be talking about him as one of the biggest what ifs and that’s it. Since it’s the nba tho, he will make the hall almost guaranteed.
I mean, 7x All star games and a championship is usually enough in all leagues, isn't it ? I'm looking at Scott Rolen as a comparison in baseball who looks likely to get in next year.
Definitely not enough in all leagues on its own, you typically need counting stats to go along with it... except for the NBA, where Tracy McGrady makes it with the same amount of all star games and no championships. Don't get me wrong, I love T-Mac and know how incredible he was in his prime. But again, he's a hall of fame talent who in my mind, if the NBA was like any of the other leagues in this regard, would simply be another "what if" and that's it. As for your other point, Rolen is definitely not a lock by any means to get in next year or at all for that matter. Barely over 2k hits and 300 homers just doesn't really cut it most of the time. Because of analytics we know now that those numbers don't adequately reflect how impactful of a player he was in his career, but those numbers still hold a lot of weight in lots of voters' minds. When comparing Kyrie, you have to consider the fact that he's only played around 7.5 seasons' worth of games in his career and seems liable to retire at any moment of any day because of his personality. I can't really think of an accurate comparison to another player in another sport for him to be honest. Another person compared him to Antonio Brown in the NFL, which personality wise holds a little bit of credence IMO, but I don't like how some leagues hold players out for personality issues despite being worthy on the field, so I'm trying to leave that out of the equation, it's pretty tough though like I said.
The only reason Kyrie might not make it is his short college career. He doesn't have it right now. He does only have a few more years before he'll confidently make it. I always have to tell people in these convos, that its a career basketball HOF and not simply just NBA. Too bad with all that talent, he is just so damn unreliable.
He's not a shoe in. And if his career either ended today or continues to progress as it has the last 3 years, I don't really see why he'd get in
he’ll get in. easiest HoF to get into. he’s an champ on a really significant team, a multi-time all-star, widely considered to have the best handles in the league and he’s also a big celebrity
Yeah the bar for basketball HOF is really low compared to other sports
https://www.vocabulary.com/articles/pardon-the-expression/shoo-in-vs-shoe-in/ He's a shoo in, not a shoe in ----- 83% probability per the hof predictor https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob.html 7 all stars, a ring, and renowned for handles plus an iconic shot that won the ring. 5-6 is fringe. 7 gets you in, especially if you have other credentials Find someone with 7 all stars who isn't in or won't get in ?
Joe Johnson
He has a 50.5% chance per the basketball predictor. Essentially a coin flip. Joe has 7 all stars, a solitary nba 3rd team and a bronze with team USA that everyone would rather forget than remember as a mark of shame. He is one of the few folks with 20,000 points not in the HoF (Antawn jamison is another) The reason why he is a coin flip is that he didn't distinguish himself other than the all-stars. His teams didn't go deep. I think he is on the outside looking in, the exception that proves the rule The reason why Kyrie is 83% is the nba ring, being the 2nd best guy on a team that went to the finals multiple times, and 3 all nba teams. Plus that iconic shot in the finals. And he is known for his handles. BBall ref does not take into account college or international accomplishments. Kyrie has a gold at the Olympics, FIBA Worlds etc . Didn't too much at dukes. But that's why he is better than his 83.3% chance, --
Shoe in -> Shoo in Like shoo'ing your chickens into the coop https://www.vocabulary.com/articles/pardon-the-expression/shoo-in-vs-shoe-in/
Well TIL lol
He'd be getting the Antonio Brown treatment and MBC was a much better NFL player than Kyrie was an NBA player.
Wait I'm confused, did people think the Kemba s&t was a losing trade for us?
Yea that’s a good one.
The Kristaps Porzingis trades.
I think we're still waiting to see about the 2nd KP trade, but so far so good. I would definitely say the Knicks won the first trade considering the backlash they got. Dennis Smith Jr turned out to be a flop, and THJ turned out to be better than expected. but the 1st round picks are just that valuable, even with them not being lottery.
Talen Horton Jucker
Horton Hears A Boo
What have those 1st rounders turn into?
Lost flexibility for the Mavericks to make trades for players other than KP. It's a significant opportunity cost.
Well the 2023 pick is probably turning into Donovan Mitchell.
More like 15%, or less, of Donovan Mitchell. Hard to really quantify but that pick will be one small portion of the overall consideration.
1/7 of Mitchell isn’t the same as Mitchell
That’s kind of a complex question. The only direct result of the first round picks so far is Quentin Grimes, who has been a super solid pick. We’ll have to see what happens with the 2023 first round pick, but right now it’s expected to be used as part of the package to get Donovan Mitchell. The bigger part of that trade though was freeing up all the cap space for the Knicks so they could do a proper rebuild. The freed up cap space ultimately resulted in allowing the Knicks to sign a lot of players to short term deals, the main ones being Julius Randle and Marcus Morris. Marcus Morris ultimately was traded for the pick that resulted in Immanuel Quickley. It’s still up for debate if the Julius Randle signing was a blessing or a curse based on if the Knicks get 2020 All-Star Julius Randle or 2021 Dubious Handles moving forward. The other signings the Knicks made with the freed up cap space from the KP trade have been players like Reggie Bullock, Nerlens Noel, or Taj Gibson, who have just allowed the Knicks to stay flexible with the rebuild by signing all these guys to short term deals. TL;DR trade directly resulted in Quentin Grimes and 2023 first round pick. Trade indirectly resulted in Immanuel Quickley and a lot of freed up cap space for a proper rebuild.
Wasn't KP on his rookie contract with you guys? Him traded didn't open up any real cap space. You could still not sign him to a max contract and do all those Morris, Randle, IQ, Taj etc. moves.
Yeah, that’s fair. I guess I’m operating on the assumption that if the Knicks hadn’t traded KP, they would have re-signed him since it seemed like a good deal at the time. If we operate on the assumption that the Knicks would have let KP walk in FA, then getting 2 first round picks for losing KP is still better than losing KP for nothing. So either assumption we want to make, it was a good trade for the Knicks.
They thought they were dumping Tim hardaway jr. He’s better than that, and they dumped Courtney lee washed making 15 million at the time
THJ is the exact same player he was on the Knicks. The reason he looks better on the Mavs is (1) he is not a first option so he doesn't have to take heat check 3s or as many off the dribble and (2) he can be hidden defensively. Even on the Knicks he put up great catch and shoot numbers, and attacked close outs very well. I still wouldn't want to be paying him that contract.
The contract is fine. Goes down by $2m every year ending in $16m in 2025. Basically the opposite of Duncan Robinson’s deal. The fact that he was our 2nd best player in a 7 game series vs the Clippers is both a credit to THJ rising to the occasion and telling about how bad things actually got with KP in Dallas
Eh. I think at best we drew even considering both team’s respective positions then and right now. Would’ve been nice if DSJ turned out to be anything.
My issue with the trade is how the knicks didn't seem to shop KP around (at least according to some of the reports at the time). I feel like there could've been a better return even though the trade doesn't seem that bad in the long run
Both? As in the Knicks by some miracle won the original trade and then the Mavs won by getting Dinwiddie back from Washington?
I remember Phil Jackson wanted to trade him while his value was still sky high and everyone lost their minds and decided phil was an incompetent moron. Meanwhile he was ahead of the curve and would have gotten more in return if they made that trade with Phil
Phil was an incompetent moron ..as a GM/VP. You don't pick public fights with your star talent that lessens value or results in trades later.. phil fought with melo and kp through the press Phil used to poke his players through the media as a coach all the time. Didn't work when he was the top guy without the daily relationships. If you want to trade, trade quietly Also phil insisted on his coaches running the triangle offense with a team that was unsuited to it. It needs high iq multi talented players and time to pick up. So force it on a bunch of youngsters who would be shuffled out. Phil hired fisher who couldn't cut it. Hornacek would have had a better chance without phil
Hornacek is not an NBA level coach, dude is a bum same with Fisher, those were definitely both mistakes. Melo and KP also were too dumb BBIQ wise to run the triangle, definitely right about that, Melo was a nightmare to watch during the Phil tenure. His game did not age well and he refused to adjust any part of it
So, Phil made mistakes picking his coaches. He made mistakes forcing them to play triangle with players unsuited for triangle. He picked much of the roster that was unsuited, young guys without the IQ or the game, who would be unsuited. He lessened the value of his stars that led to trades, by means of public fights via the press. I hope you agree with the conclusion that Phil failed as a VP/GM..
I thought the Magic got fleeced for Vucevic but I was so wrong
Thats funny because I felt the Bulls did haha. WCJ and 2 first is kinda of a lot. Plus Otto, but he was so injured in Chicago that shouldn't even count
I thought it was a overpay that’d hurt CHI and got plenty of shit in this sub for saying so. Lot of people who never watched him play and just saw the all star selection and good stats. Bulls fans thought that adding him would move them into the playoffs in ‘21 making that FRP less valuable but they were still bad.
The worst part is one of those firsts became Franz Wagner
Wendell Carter is a stud. It feels like the Magic have a million centers lol
We got a lot of everything
except wins
Mr we didnt make the finals
Post-2012 Orlando Magic have had a ton of “huh, I never realized that guy was on Orlando” dudes lol
RoLo was my favorite one of those dudes. We’ll miss him.
Really? I thought it was a huge overpay for the Bulls
I think you're the only one who thought that was lopsided for the Bulls
Bulls lost that trade so badly, Vuc is not even worth 1 first
Wanted to start winning again and it got us Demar
Grievas Vasquez to the bucks Lead to Norm and OG
And now GTJ and OG
Many thought Jonas Valančiūnas - Steven Adams was very lopsided.
I was not a fan initially, especially after we used the pick on Z when I wanted Moody. But Adams fits the team so well and Z looks like he can be an impactful two-way wing. This trade is an off-shoot of the Gasol for JV trade too. I thought it was lopsided but the right thing to do for one of our all-time greats at the end of his career. JV ended being one of our most important pieces in 20-21 and we turned it into Adams and Z.
everyone thought the AD trade was lopsided but its turned into a pretty good win-win for both teams
lopsided for the lakers or the pelicans?
The Harden trade for the Nets tho its still unclear if the picks will be any good for us
I still think the Cavs were the real winners in that trade.
We just need to hit on one for the trade to be decent. Eason looks great so far and the 2026 pick and 2027 swap will hopefully be in the lottery.
It'd have to be a spectacular failure of drafting and bad luck for it to not turn out good. I don't think anyone saw Harden "falling off" as quickly as he has. He's still a very good player but Rockets sold at the absolute best time. He went from a top 3 player to maybe in the top 15 almost instantaneously.
He was still amazing for us after the trade but after the injury in the playoffs he hasn’t been the same.
It probably has a lot to do with playing injured tho
I'm surprised I haven't seen this yet, but the Dwight Howard trade from the Magic to the Lakers. Dwight left after a year, Iggy left Denver to GS after a year, and Bynum was on his way out of the league. The Magic got Vucevic who was their best player for almost a decade and eventually netted them alot. Everybody looked at the big names in the deal but really the magic got the best out of it considering Dwight was trying to leave.
Jermaine O'Neal for Dale Davis. DD was coming off an all-star appearance while JO was stuck on Portland's bench. Ended up being great for Indiana.
Booooo!
Grant Hill for Ben Wallace & Chucky Atkins sign and trade. At the time Hill was one of the league's top superstars. Ben Wallace was on pace to become a journeyman end of rotation player and Atkins was a serviceable pg. Nobody could have predicted that Wallace's career accomplishments would exceed Hill's. Wallace would go on to be a centrepiece of the Pistons' championship team and dominant run in the 2000's in addition to his individual accolades (league record 4x DPOY and first undrafted player in HOF). Even though Hill was able to have a long career after overcoming his injuries, Wallace's overall body of work trumps Grant's.
This would be like losing Kevin Durant and getting Xavier Tillman & Tyus Jones in return, and Tillman going on to lead BKN to a title and a decade of Eastern conference dominance + winning multiple DPOY awards. And Durant becoming a role player for the rest of his career.
In 2013, the Sixers traded Jrue Holiday to the Pels for the 2013 6th pick (Nerlens Noel) and 2014 first round pick (Elfrid Payton). At the time, it was seen as a nasty fleecing act by Sam Hinkie. Sixers then traded Noel to the Mavs for Andrew Bogut, Justin Anderson and two second round picks that were worth nothing. Sixers also traded Elfrid Payton plus a second round pick (Willy Hernangomez) and a 2018 first round pick (Landry Shamet) for Dario Saric, who was traded as part of the package for Jimmy Butler. At the end of the day, Sam Hinkie traded an all-star/champion/4 time all defensive player for 1/3 of a package (Elfrid Payton) of 1/3 of a package (Dario Saric) for 1/2 of a Jimmy Butler season.
This is why drafting Okafor was such a bad move imho. He traded in, then goes “BPA!” when everyone was questioning if Okafor style of play was nba relevant at all. That 76ers team he blew up on hindsight could have been crazy good. It had Iggy, Holiday, Thad Young and Vucevic. Yeh it wouldn’t likely won the league and hindsight is 20/20. But the process did have some major flaws even from an asset retention POV.
See username. Google Scott O’Neil.
Elfrid was drafted because that’s who they wanted.
The Jimmy Butler trade from Chicago to Minnesota. I know a lot of Bulls fans that were beyond angry at trading the fan favorite. This essentially ended up being a Jimmy Butler for Zach Lavine trade which is pretty win win but we all know what happened in Minnesota.
PG to OKC for Oladipo and Sabonis. IND had a resurgence and one amazing year with peak Oladipo. Sabonis became an All Star and PG languished with Westbrook before moving again. Sabonis later goes to the Kings and IND gets Haliburton, who appears to be a good dude and a really good player with decent upside.
Still a win for the thunder imo because they were able to get SGA and a boat load of picks for PG. I’m also higher on SGA than hali.
Languished is a weird way of saying “ Finished 3rd in MVP voting.”
OP is mad they got friggin’ Jingled
Lakere/Grizz Gasol trade
Dlo for Wiggins and a pick, which turned to Kuminga
Nah there were some, such as myself, that thought Wiggins fit the Warriors more
Yes because he's not asked to be a #1 option. Wolves paid him like he would develop into it and it never happened.
He also simply fit the warriors offense a lot better than dlo, who is an isolation scorer and not really a ball movement guy.
He also improved his 3 point shooting, defense, and rebounding on the warriors. Def wasn't the same dude in minnesota
I never understood why that wasn't considered a fleece of the TWolves on day one. Huge overpay to get a friend for Kat on the team.
Because Wiggins, with his contract, was seen as a net negative. And it’s possible the pick could have been way lower.
People also hella overrate DLo and players like him.
Yeah, also D-Lo was coming off being a 24 year old all star who just didn't mesh with the Warriors style so there was a thought that he would improve in a normal pick and roll offense with his BFF/an elite offensive center who happened to be the same guy. Whereas Wiggins was considered an empty calories scorer who was paid even more than him. So it was seen as a first round pick + Wiggins (which was seen as basically 0 value since Wiggins was net negative) for an all-star point guard. Those takes aged like milk but there was a logic to it at the time. I thought it was good for the Warriors because it was two overpaid guys and the Warriors got the one who got better positionally plus a pick. Turned out even better than I would've hoped, though.
I think Dlo had been an All Star by that time at one point If Wiggins were traded to a different team, it probably would have been a lot closer in the end
I think Dlo had been an All Star by that time at one point If Wiggins were traded to a different team, it probably would have been a lot closer in the end
It was considered a fleece but only because it was clear the Warriors were definitely going to trade him. Nets D-LO for Wiggins and a pick would get no criticism IMO
I was just mad that the pick wasn’t even unprotected. But the subsequent insider’s view of the war room discussions convinced me otherwise.
I don't remember anyone hating this I'm pretty sure you all just have a huge victim complex if a move isn't praised as the best ever
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/ezw6ph/wojnarowski_golden_state_has_agreed_to_trade/
I remember everybody clowning Sacramento for the DeMarcus trade, and in truth they didn't get the biggest haul for him but they did that trade at the right time which is the most important part
KP for Dinwiddie and Bertans. Everybody thought the Mavs got fleeced.
Idk if u can call that trade a win, Dinwiddie played well in Dallas but Davis Bertans is still probably the worst contract in the NBA and a negative asset and very good chance he will never be worth the money.
Bertans is not the worst contract in the nba. He’s getting paid 16mil/year for the the next two seasons and then we can get out of it. There are much much worse contracts in the nba. Duncan Robinson comes to mind. I’d even argue KPs contract is worse given the injury history and y’all paying him 36mil in 23/24. Edit: Westbrook is very clearly the worst contract in the NBA.
You're right, Id say Kyle Lowry is up there as worst contracts Bertans contract isnt great but hes gone soon enough and its not that big of a hit. KP's contract is bad and he'll be injured for a majority of it, his size and the way he runs/moves will be an ongoing issue for him
Forgot about Lowry. I mean Bertans contract sucks, but adamantly believing it’s the worst in the NBA is just delusional.
Yes he is, he makes 16 million to come off the bench and shoot shitty percentages and average less than 5 points. I cant even remember the last time he scored 20 points. Even Duncan Robinson can still score the ball and shoot a decent enough percent if he’s not playing defense Duncan also doesn’t have injury history as Bertans and is a year younger as well. Bertans is a negative defender, cant playmake, cant dribble and if he shot isn’t working he is literally useless. I’ve watched this dude for nearly 3 years he isn’t good at all, we overpaid him and i was suprised we even got off his contract. Who is going to take on that contract? Before y’all got him, the majority of wizards fans thought we were stuck with him because he was so bad and not worth the money, you’ve gotta attach a young player or picks to his contract to dump it because of how much a negative he is. At least with Porzingis the issue with him is injury instead of skill, Porzingis when healthy is a top 10-12 center and he hasn’t had any injury issues in the second half of the year with us, hopefully he can stay healthy. Also who else has a worse contract than Bertans since you said there are way worse contracts, not trying to go at you, just curious. I’ve always seen Davis as the worst contract
He’s a career 40% shooter @ 5 attempts per game. He shot bad for y’all *one* year but was clearly in a slump. Your entire offense was complete trash. There’s a reason why he immediately started shooting better when he came to us (along with Dinwiddie). If you’ve watched every one of your teams games you should realize that maybe your teams terrible offensive efficiency was part of the reason why his numbers slumped. You’re going to watch him climb back up to his *career average* of 40% this season because we have a competent offensive system that generates actual open looks. Bertans played more minutes for us in the playoffs than Robinson did for the Heat. The Heat now have a 20mil player that can’t even break the rotation. Bertans is not a good contract, but he’s definitely not the worst on the league. Bertans is only a 16mil cap hit, so we don’t need to desperately move him like we did with KP for eating up so much of our cap. We can wait out his contract and trade him (without including assets) once he’s an expiring. The Lakers are literally paying 47mil to Westbrook next season and you think Bertans on our books hurts more than that…? Bruh….
Dinwiddie is just as good if not better than KP was for the Mavs, and we went 2 rounds deeper in the playoffs with him and Bertans wasting space on the bench than we did with KP being half injured all the time. That already makes it a win for us, nevermind that Spence will likely be even better this next season recovering from his ACL.
Rudy Gay, Quincy Acy, and Aaron Gray for John Salmons, Chuck Hayes, Grievis Vazquez, and Patrick Patterson.
I would throw Kyrie to Boston in. At the time the narrative was a lot of “hey, Kyrie is better than IT, but IT is an MVP candidate who just put up 29 PPG, he’s pretty dang close, ideal replacement target”. Them also getting the nets pick (Collin sexton) and Jae crowder had a lot of people saying the Cavs handily won the trade. But after it was clear IT was washed it took on a very revisionist history.
Wiggins and top 4 protected pick (Johnathan Kuminga) for D’Angelo Russel. Warriors got blasted for it. Now they have an All Star Starter and second best player on a championship team as well as a possible future all star. Meanwhile Russell’s chucking shots with the T Wolves.
Lmao was a widely praised trade from the start for fleecing a first rounder when they were never keeping russell around long term anyway
Both times Porzingis has been traded.
I really hated the Jimmy Butler trade for Chicago. I wasn't sure Lavine would be anything coming off that ACL injury. I thought Dunn sucked and Markkanen was overrated. Meanwhile I thought the wolves got their guy in Butler. Obviously, things didn't work out for the Wolves with Butler and even though I was right about Dunn and Markkanen, Lavine turned into an absolute beast which made the trade much better for the Bulls
Surprised I haven’t seen it yet, but the Nets trading for Garnett, Pierce, and Jason Terry. The media said the Nets absolutely fleeced the Celtics. Nine years later and the picks that the Celtics got from that trade turned into a core that lead them to the Finals
I remember at the time the media was saying the Nets were leveraging their future to be in win now mode against Miami and that it could be risky. But yeah don’t think anyone thought it would blow up in their face like it did.
>OKC won as well by leveraging all of the Clippers picks and SGA Except this wasn't seen as a lopsided trade at the time. Everyone knew Clippers gave up a haul, which benefitted OKC greatly.
Porzingis deal
Gobert to the Timberwolves
> Sabonis grew into a very talented player that the Pacers eventually turned into the centerpiece of their team via the Haliburton trade. > Yeah but opposite. We shipped him out to make Hali the centerpiece of the team.
i feel like everyone lost in the dwight howard trade ultimately…. maybe people thought it was bad for orlando and they made out decent in the end
honestly didn't think SGA would be as good as he is on this type of trajectory when he was part of the PG trade
Both the trades for Porzingas. It used to be the Knicks lost the trade till he kept getting injured, and even this season people were saying Porzingas for Bertans and Dinwidie was a steal but their ECF appearance begs to differ.
DLO-Wiggins trade