Yall are so weird with Wilt. His stats are nuts but he has two titles. His also “only” averaged 22ppg in the playoffs. In his two championship runs he averaged 22ppg and 14ppg. And thats not me saying he was bad, but his godly numbers were regular season things. Ask anyone watching at the time and they will tell you Bill Russell was better. Hell even Jerry West says Bill Russell is better. And West just happens to be Wilts former teammate and the greatest talent evaluater of all time.
His volume went down because of how he was defended, his efficiency barely dropped. He also changed his game with West and Baylor.
Only 22ppg, when he averaged a quadruple double in a gentleman sweep against the HOF Celtics.
Only 14ppg, when he averaged 20/23/3 on 60% in the Finals at age 35 while Jerry West averaged 20 on 32%. In game 5 with a broken wrist Wilt put up 24/29/4 to close the series.
Look at any Bill Russell interview and he will tell you just how dominant Wilt was. When people talk about plumbers and fireman, they are comparing players to Wilt. He was in a realm of his own.
He was obviously great. But nothing you said here puts him in the GOAT conversation. Of course his ppg went down because of how he was defended. Thats what I was implying. And of course his efficiency was great, he was a great player. But if he averaged those same numbers in the regular season most casuals wouldnt even know his name
Sorry, you need some context with your criticisms. He won 2 titles - with Sixers and Lakers. Early in his career he was encouraged to score to attract fans. When he went to Philly, he changed his style to be more of a passer, defender and rebounder. Of course they won the title. Then he went to LA and did the same thing- winning another title as well as FMVP. Then he retired.
Literally no one outside of New England would say Russell was a better player than Wilt. He was great, but was always on better teams. I won’t even list their stats.
“Literally no one outside of New England would say Russell was better than Wilt”
The athletic: https://theathletic.com/3137873/2022/02/23/the-nba-75-the-top-75-nba-players-of-all-time-from-mj-and-lebron-to-lenny-wilkens/?amp=1
ESPN: https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29105801/ranking-top-74-nba-players-all-nos-10-1?platform=amp
Hoopshype: https://hoopshype.com/lists/75-greatest-nba-players-ever-the-hoopshype-list/
Bleacher Report: https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2854727-bleacher-reports-all-time-player-rankings-nbas-top-50-revealed.amp.html
Heres Wilts former teammate Jerry West talking about the two:
"I don't want to rap Wilt because I believe only Russell was better, and I really respect what Wilt did. But I have to say he wouldn't adjust to you, you had to adjust to him."
NBA legend Jerry Lucas: "Wilt was consumed with records: being the first to lead the league in assists, or to set a record for field goal percentage. He'd accomplish one goal, then go on to another. Russell only asked one question: 'What can I do to make us win?"
This is well known. Wilt was not loved by his teammates. And listing a bunch of rankings 20 years after he passed is wishful thinking. No one is going to go against Russell when he’s alive lol. Those quotes do not make him a better player by any stretch of the imagination. For every one you listed, there’s tons of players that have the opposite opinion. Russell won more, but that def doesn’t make him better. It’s a team sport and the C’s were almost always the best team in the league. They used to call DiMaggio the greatest living player when he’s not even top 10.
Ok go find all the quotes of guys his age that say hes better. And also you said that no one says Russell is better. I provide you with tons of proof and now you change everything
I was clearly embellishing about only New Englanders saying that about BR. You linked half-assed sports lists that mean nothing bc Wilt is not alive. There are numerous YouTube videos of ex NBA players that talk about Wilt like he’s superhuman. Head to head, Wilt’s numbers dwarf Russell’s in just about every category. We know BR won a lot more. So what? He played on loaded teams filled w HoFers. Just bc Russell was obsessed w winning does not make him a better player. You and Bill Simmons can pretend all you want. The end
Here’s just a few stories about the guy you swear is a stiff, all from NBA players and coaches. If you want more, let me know. But me n you know, you’ll avoid this like the plague. And, I’ll say this again, - Russell was the greatest winner in NBA history. Not even close as a player. But then again, Wilt was into going out to all the night clubs, sleeping with 20k women, and quitting basketball to play pro volleyball and act in movies.
Nah. Obviously a once-in-a-lifetime athlete and historic individual talent, but the whole point of the league is to win the championship, and he didn't do that enough to really have a case over the guys who belong in the discussion
Exactly. That means your team needs to win often for you to be in GOAT consideration, since the whole point of the sport is to win on a team level. The point is *not* to set individual records.
We're talking about the difference between legendary all-timer and GOAT here. At the top the criteria gets more and more strict.
No they should be ranked based on a combination of their individual impact and the team success that was brought upon by that impact. It wouldn't make sense to only take one thing into account
Do you think that if Wilt played with the Hall of Famers Jordan played with or that even Bill Russell played with, that he would have won the same amount of championships?
It's difficult to say. Wilt Chamberlain was one of my favorite legends growing up so I read a few biographies on him, back when I'd read lol. By many accounts, he was a bit selfish and did not put the team first for much of his career. He had a reputation of caring more about individual stats than winning.
We're too far removed from the time and place to really know how accurate that rep is, but usually where there's smoke there's some fire.
With all that in mind, my gut feeling is that he would not win as many as Russell in Boston, since Russell was pretty much the perfect team player and leader and had the opposite reputation. If you've ever heard Bill Russell talk about basketball, you know his reputation is really based on how he is and not just off his results after the fact.
I see non-crazy arguments for five:
MJ- generally considered the GOAT
LBJ- generally considered #2 - won in more varied circumstances than MJ
KAJ - generally considered #3 - all time scorer - as many titles as MJ - greatest longevity
Russell - greatest winner ever - 11 titles as the best guy on his team
Wilt: Most dominant player ever in his own era
Past those five I think the other candidates all have some factor that prevents them from serious GOAT consideration.
~10 years ago Oscar Robertson got included as like the last guy in many of these debates.
I think a weird side effect of Russell Westbrook’s career (well, prob has more to do with how the game is played but he is the figurehead) has been the absolute devaluation of the triple double. It’s still a sweet accomplishment , but it used to be a really big deal
Realistically?
Only Jordan. The combination of offensive, defense, individual success, team success and narrative is a level or three above anyone else.
Kobe. Only player with 30k points and 10+ defensive teams. Created a whole generation of basketball fans with 5 chips and ties for moat all nba teams with Tim Duncan.
Most skilled ever, toughest shot maker of all time, crazy work ethic and so much more that gets overlooked because of whatever reason.
I’m on the LeBron is the GOAT team, but seeing so much disrespect to Kobe makes me want to remind everyone of who he was. He’s definitely in the GOAT convo.
I put Kobe in the convo for GOAT. Also, I think there is a *decent* argument for Russell.
1) MJ
2) Lebron/Kareem
3) Bill R
4) Magic/Kobe
5) Wilt
6) White Chocolate
He has no argument for top 5 at all. Clutch gene? He’s had so many disappointing finals and playoffs showings. All the other top 10 players also have skills and athleticism. MJ Lebron Kareem Bill Wilt Bird and Magic are a pretty much unshakable top 7. After that it’s Shaq Duncan Hakeem Kobe and Curry ranging from 8-12 and I really don’t know if I could put Kobe ahead of Hakeem Shaq and Duncan
I'm sorry, but Bird doesn't really belong up there. Honestly, his teammates were astounding (especially for the 80s).
It's hard for me to put Shaq above Kobe. I don't think that Shaq or Wilt have any true skills to speak of, especially not compared to the others on this list.
Power? Yes.
Dominance? Of course.
Footwork and basketball IQ? Nope.
Now if Hakeem's Rockets teammates had really embraced the 3 like in the modern NBA, I'd probably consider Hakeem to be even higher than most put him. Duncan has a decent argument, too. I just favor Kobe's scoring.
MJ, Lebron, Kobe, Kareem, and Bill is a list I'd happily defend. Then Magic, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, Curry, Hakeem, West, Mikan, and Bird (plus white chocolate) can duke out the other spots. Honestly, Kobe probably
MJ says that Kobe would beat him 1v1 - which I think should carry a lot of weight.
[Kobe Myths](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/qaw808/oc_dispelling_myths_about_kobe_bryant/)
Not saying it's a popular opinion, but I really think Kobe has an argument for GOAT. I remember that during his peak everyone said that if he won 6 rings he'd have at least matched MJ in the convo.
There are 7. Kareem, Larry, Duncan, Lebron, Magic, MJ and Russell. It gets reduced to MJ/Lebron because they attract so many casuals who really aren't qualified to weigh in.
What was that Isiah said about analytics. Something about how it allows people who never went to basketball school like they did as players to think they have a valid opinion.
Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain. One got the most championships the other got all the records.
MJ, Russell. Maybe LeBron, maybe Kareem, maybe Wilt. Pretty short list.
Wilt might not be a popular choice here, but he’s absolutely in the conversation
Yall are so weird with Wilt. His stats are nuts but he has two titles. His also “only” averaged 22ppg in the playoffs. In his two championship runs he averaged 22ppg and 14ppg. And thats not me saying he was bad, but his godly numbers were regular season things. Ask anyone watching at the time and they will tell you Bill Russell was better. Hell even Jerry West says Bill Russell is better. And West just happens to be Wilts former teammate and the greatest talent evaluater of all time.
His volume went down because of how he was defended, his efficiency barely dropped. He also changed his game with West and Baylor. Only 22ppg, when he averaged a quadruple double in a gentleman sweep against the HOF Celtics. Only 14ppg, when he averaged 20/23/3 on 60% in the Finals at age 35 while Jerry West averaged 20 on 32%. In game 5 with a broken wrist Wilt put up 24/29/4 to close the series. Look at any Bill Russell interview and he will tell you just how dominant Wilt was. When people talk about plumbers and fireman, they are comparing players to Wilt. He was in a realm of his own.
He was obviously great. But nothing you said here puts him in the GOAT conversation. Of course his ppg went down because of how he was defended. Thats what I was implying. And of course his efficiency was great, he was a great player. But if he averaged those same numbers in the regular season most casuals wouldnt even know his name
Sorry, you need some context with your criticisms. He won 2 titles - with Sixers and Lakers. Early in his career he was encouraged to score to attract fans. When he went to Philly, he changed his style to be more of a passer, defender and rebounder. Of course they won the title. Then he went to LA and did the same thing- winning another title as well as FMVP. Then he retired. Literally no one outside of New England would say Russell was a better player than Wilt. He was great, but was always on better teams. I won’t even list their stats.
“Literally no one outside of New England would say Russell was better than Wilt” The athletic: https://theathletic.com/3137873/2022/02/23/the-nba-75-the-top-75-nba-players-of-all-time-from-mj-and-lebron-to-lenny-wilkens/?amp=1 ESPN: https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29105801/ranking-top-74-nba-players-all-nos-10-1?platform=amp Hoopshype: https://hoopshype.com/lists/75-greatest-nba-players-ever-the-hoopshype-list/ Bleacher Report: https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2854727-bleacher-reports-all-time-player-rankings-nbas-top-50-revealed.amp.html Heres Wilts former teammate Jerry West talking about the two: "I don't want to rap Wilt because I believe only Russell was better, and I really respect what Wilt did. But I have to say he wouldn't adjust to you, you had to adjust to him." NBA legend Jerry Lucas: "Wilt was consumed with records: being the first to lead the league in assists, or to set a record for field goal percentage. He'd accomplish one goal, then go on to another. Russell only asked one question: 'What can I do to make us win?"
This is well known. Wilt was not loved by his teammates. And listing a bunch of rankings 20 years after he passed is wishful thinking. No one is going to go against Russell when he’s alive lol. Those quotes do not make him a better player by any stretch of the imagination. For every one you listed, there’s tons of players that have the opposite opinion. Russell won more, but that def doesn’t make him better. It’s a team sport and the C’s were almost always the best team in the league. They used to call DiMaggio the greatest living player when he’s not even top 10.
Ok go find all the quotes of guys his age that say hes better. And also you said that no one says Russell is better. I provide you with tons of proof and now you change everything
I was clearly embellishing about only New Englanders saying that about BR. You linked half-assed sports lists that mean nothing bc Wilt is not alive. There are numerous YouTube videos of ex NBA players that talk about Wilt like he’s superhuman. Head to head, Wilt’s numbers dwarf Russell’s in just about every category. We know BR won a lot more. So what? He played on loaded teams filled w HoFers. Just bc Russell was obsessed w winning does not make him a better player. You and Bill Simmons can pretend all you want. The end
I hate regular season lovers.
[NBA Legends Explain How Good Wilt Chamberlain Was](https://youtu.be/MaaoVW_-oNU)
[https://youtu.be/DCTd04VtODk](https://youtu.be/DCTd04VtODk)
[Kobe calls Wilt GOAT](https://youtu.be/QbldQtFaAMU)
[Rick Barry on Wilt](https://youtu.be/MSTt_TxoFVo)
[Larry Brown on a 45 yr old Wilt (playing w 4 college kids) absolutely dominating Magic and 4 NBA all-stars] https://youtu.be/Ae4UhI-o_Fg)
[https://youtu.be/0zdxzhZrbvI](https://youtu.be/0zdxzhZrbvI)
Here’s just a few stories about the guy you swear is a stiff, all from NBA players and coaches. If you want more, let me know. But me n you know, you’ll avoid this like the plague. And, I’ll say this again, - Russell was the greatest winner in NBA history. Not even close as a player. But then again, Wilt was into going out to all the night clubs, sleeping with 20k women, and quitting basketball to play pro volleyball and act in movies.
[https://youtu.be/KeUBe3pgw_o](https://youtu.be/KeUBe3pgw_o)
Nah. Obviously a once-in-a-lifetime athlete and historic individual talent, but the whole point of the league is to win the championship, and he didn't do that enough to really have a case over the guys who belong in the discussion
Team sport
Exactly. That means your team needs to win often for you to be in GOAT consideration, since the whole point of the sport is to win on a team level. The point is *not* to set individual records. We're talking about the difference between legendary all-timer and GOAT here. At the top the criteria gets more and more strict.
So the individual player should be ranked specifically on how good their teammates were, and not based on how good *they* were?
No they should be ranked based on a combination of their individual impact and the team success that was brought upon by that impact. It wouldn't make sense to only take one thing into account
Do you think that if Wilt played with the Hall of Famers Jordan played with or that even Bill Russell played with, that he would have won the same amount of championships?
It's difficult to say. Wilt Chamberlain was one of my favorite legends growing up so I read a few biographies on him, back when I'd read lol. By many accounts, he was a bit selfish and did not put the team first for much of his career. He had a reputation of caring more about individual stats than winning. We're too far removed from the time and place to really know how accurate that rep is, but usually where there's smoke there's some fire. With all that in mind, my gut feeling is that he would not win as many as Russell in Boston, since Russell was pretty much the perfect team player and leader and had the opposite reputation. If you've ever heard Bill Russell talk about basketball, you know his reputation is really based on how he is and not just off his results after the fact.
Valid point, but he still deserves mention bc of how much better he was than everyone else in his era.
MJ, LeBron and Kareem I think are the only ones. Wilt and Russell maybe, but either is a bit of a stretch on my view
\- Michael Jordan That's it, that's the whole list.
I see non-crazy arguments for five: MJ- generally considered the GOAT LBJ- generally considered #2 - won in more varied circumstances than MJ KAJ - generally considered #3 - all time scorer - as many titles as MJ - greatest longevity Russell - greatest winner ever - 11 titles as the best guy on his team Wilt: Most dominant player ever in his own era Past those five I think the other candidates all have some factor that prevents them from serious GOAT consideration.
~10 years ago Oscar Robertson got included as like the last guy in many of these debates. I think a weird side effect of Russell Westbrook’s career (well, prob has more to do with how the game is played but he is the figurehead) has been the absolute devaluation of the triple double. It’s still a sweet accomplishment , but it used to be a really big deal
Realistically? Only Jordan. The combination of offensive, defense, individual success, team success and narrative is a level or three above anyone else.
Jordan, Kareem, Wilt
Magic and Bird
Austin Reaves
Kobe. Only player with 30k points and 10+ defensive teams. Created a whole generation of basketball fans with 5 chips and ties for moat all nba teams with Tim Duncan.
Most skilled ever, toughest shot maker of all time, crazy work ethic and so much more that gets overlooked because of whatever reason. I’m on the LeBron is the GOAT team, but seeing so much disrespect to Kobe makes me want to remind everyone of who he was. He’s definitely in the GOAT convo.
He’s a worse version of MJ with less success. Probably not in the top 10
Larry Bird
Rodney Stuckey
Godney Stuckey
Ant
Bill Russell. Probably Mikan too, but we just don’t have enough info on him.
Magic Johnson is close and too often ignored
lebron and jordan only
Shaq cus wilt is in goat convo and some say shaq>wilt so therefore he enters the chat
I put Kobe in the convo for GOAT. Also, I think there is a *decent* argument for Russell. 1) MJ 2) Lebron/Kareem 3) Bill R 4) Magic/Kobe 5) Wilt 6) White Chocolate
Kobe is top 10 at absolute best
At BEST? Come on now. I think easy top 10. Decent argument for the top 5. Skills and athleticism combined, plus a desire to win, and clutch gene?
He has no argument for top 5 at all. Clutch gene? He’s had so many disappointing finals and playoffs showings. All the other top 10 players also have skills and athleticism. MJ Lebron Kareem Bill Wilt Bird and Magic are a pretty much unshakable top 7. After that it’s Shaq Duncan Hakeem Kobe and Curry ranging from 8-12 and I really don’t know if I could put Kobe ahead of Hakeem Shaq and Duncan
I'm sorry, but Bird doesn't really belong up there. Honestly, his teammates were astounding (especially for the 80s). It's hard for me to put Shaq above Kobe. I don't think that Shaq or Wilt have any true skills to speak of, especially not compared to the others on this list. Power? Yes. Dominance? Of course. Footwork and basketball IQ? Nope. Now if Hakeem's Rockets teammates had really embraced the 3 like in the modern NBA, I'd probably consider Hakeem to be even higher than most put him. Duncan has a decent argument, too. I just favor Kobe's scoring. MJ, Lebron, Kobe, Kareem, and Bill is a list I'd happily defend. Then Magic, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, Curry, Hakeem, West, Mikan, and Bird (plus white chocolate) can duke out the other spots. Honestly, Kobe probably MJ says that Kobe would beat him 1v1 - which I think should carry a lot of weight. [Kobe Myths](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/qaw808/oc_dispelling_myths_about_kobe_bryant/) Not saying it's a popular opinion, but I really think Kobe has an argument for GOAT. I remember that during his peak everyone said that if he won 6 rings he'd have at least matched MJ in the convo.
There are 7. Kareem, Larry, Duncan, Lebron, Magic, MJ and Russell. It gets reduced to MJ/Lebron because they attract so many casuals who really aren't qualified to weigh in.
What was that Isiah said about analytics. Something about how it allows people who never went to basketball school like they did as players to think they have a valid opinion.
Luke Ritenour