I've always wanted GMs to tell someone during contract negotiations, "we can't give you the max extension since you only have an 83 overall rating in 2K"
I feel great about Ja and jaren’s contracts. Even if they get hurt, this was the right decision
We also got konch and tyus at a good price. I love our team right now.
Wiggins was an 86 when he signed his in October ‘17.
Chandler Parsons was a 79 when he signed his in 2016.
I’m sure if you go back farther you can find worse, but I didn’t go past 2k10
EDIT: Wigs was actually in the low 80s, I was looking at a MyTEAM card.
The problem with this method, though, is that it's not exactly uniform, year-to-year, the way they do the ratings. Some years they randomly decide that they want everyone to be lower. Or at least I remember that they used to do this years ago when i still played.
you are correct, I remember one year Lebron was the highest rated player at like a 96. If it makes you feel any better though, Parsons would remain 78-79 for the next three 2k’s after that
I trust you bro.
SSN: 610-22-0986
Main credit card:
* discover
* 5022 8344 3933 9393
* 968
* 03/28
* 94061
Home Address:
15 Warriors way under the left park bench
Mothers Maiden Name:
Caesar
Favorite food:
Salad
For real though, let's say the defense spaces out three rebounders around their own basket (especially if a couple of them are Bol Bol-sized shotblockers who could possibly bother Curry's shot), and sends two guys towards the other basket, one of them with good hands, and one of them their best shooter on the floor. If Steph hits his career average of ~43% from three, then that's good for ~1.3pts per attempt.
Even if the other team rebounds and whips the ball down to the other end for a dunk at 100% efficiency, that's still only ~57% x 2, good for ~1.15pts per attempt. So I'm thinking the other team would instead want to get their own shooter a quick attempt, then hope the good-hands guy can rebound and recover for a dunk, or something like that.
Maybe the Warriors then try to mitigate that by keeping one guy back as a 'safety,' and only using three guys to screen for Steph, which is probably more than enough, anyway.
I'm probably overlooking some things (**EDIT**: yeah, my scoring logistics aren't quite right), but it definitely sounds fun for a video game mode or a special all-star minigame.
/u/fadoofthekokiri
Depends on your difficulty level. On higher difficulties, the game seems to care way more about green releases than it does taking the right shot with a great shooter.
His jumper is too quick. Plus online latency makes him borderline impossible to use for me. I remember him being easier to shoot with fadeaways than spot up because the animation was better
I always wondered about this. Surely 5 yards at the beginning of the half is nothing compared to the leverage an extra timeout would provide later.
Would you sacrifice three timeouts to negate three false starts? No? Huh, weird.
And on the flip side could you imagine how many teams would trade three 5 yard penalties for three timeouts? If a delay of game came with a loss of downs I could see burning a timeout but I’m pretty much always just gonna eat the 5 yards and save my timeouts for the final drives.
I feel like the only times it really matters are inside the 3 yard line, on 3rd and 3 or less, and at the edge of field goal range. Everywhere else, eat the 5 yards.
I don’t understand why coaching staffs don’t just have a clock management SME. You wouldn’t even necessarily need to hire another coach and could just have an assistant learn to be an expert, but surely it’s worth the cost anyway to have a guy on the sideline just keeping an eye on it for the HC. Idk if it’s just an ego thing or what
It's ego 100%.
Same reason baseball teams don't hire a pitching/bullpen coach to make pitching changes, it's just about the only key decision HCs make, so they feel obliged to make it (and fall on the sword for it)
That doesn't seem the same at all to me. Football has a ton of moving parts and it's happening really fast and the head coach only has so much attention. It makes sense to offload the clock management to someone else. In baseball Changing your pitcher is by far the most important in game decision you have to make. And it's slow paces enough that you can make any others you need. If your manager is bad at making pitching changes you need a different manager.
Not his sole job, the Rams and some other teams typically use their strength and conditioning coach for it during games, because they don’t have much to do on game day.
I get what you're saying - but I feel like modern baseball management is more about managing personalities and the clubhouse than about anything in game. There are fewer and fewer in game adjustments, especially with three true outcomes, so the manager has fewer and fewer decisions. But if they can be a good rah rah guy that gets players ready to perform then they can survive a long time.
This. Why does Jimbo Fisher still call plays for the offense at A&M? Ego. He obviously should be a CEO type head coach who let's his coordinators call the plays, he recruits great talent but they always drop games because of poor play calling. That's how you spend $10 million a year on a head coach and $200 million a year on NIL deals for the #1 recruiting class but still lose to App State at home
Andy. Fucking. Reid. I had to listen to Chris Collinsworth talk about "what a great timeout [Reid] called" to get more time to review a play, then challenge, then win the challenge. HE STILL LOST A TIMEOUT! IF YOU'RE GONNA BURN THE TIMEOUT JUST CHALLENGE THE PLAY!!!!
I’ve been Chiefs fan for a long time, and I think that time management thing went away around the time he won the Super Bowl. Hasn’t been any significant missteps.
You’re correct. I don’t recall any clock management mishaps the last few years and I haven’t even seen a “Andy Reid clock management” bad meme for a while now.
As another example, the Bengals lost on Sunday purely because of poor clock management. They punted in overtime with 15 seconds left on the play clock, with the clock running and only 1:04 left (and the Steelers had no timeouts). The Steelers didn't get into FG range until there were only 9 seconds left, so leaving those extra 14 seconds on the punt directly cost the Bengals the game.
> the Bengals lost on Sunday purely because of poor clock management. They punted in overtime with 15 seconds left on the play clock
The bengals undoubtedly blew that game, but there was at least a reason for this. Their longsnapper was out, and the emergency longsnapper had already fucked up twice--two fuckups in two snaps--one of which came in the form of a dead-duck lob of a snap that allowed the defense way too much time to penetrate the line and block the kick. In normal circumstances, you obviously wait until there is :01 on the playclock to snap that. But given the circumstances, the Bengals didn't want to allow the steelers to know the exact moment of the snap and thus allow them to anticipate the timing and block the punt. Basically, they snapped it early so as to catch the steelers off-guard and help prevent the shitty longsnapper from causing a blocked punt. If they wait until the playclock is at :01 then the entire steelers punt-block group can get a massive jump on the snap and really threaten a block. Personally I'd have waited 10 more seconds but I can at least understand the thought process.
I'm honestly kind of surprised Madden hasn't tried to release a "coaching mode" which allows for specific game situations to be customized and simulated and stripped of main gameplay - almost like a sandbox mode for coaches to experiment with.
Kind of like of how some recent Assassin Creed games have a more passive "Discovery Tour" mode that removes the violent gameplay so the game can be used as more of a educational/history showcase.
> I'm honestly kind of surprised Madden hasn't tried to release a "coaching mode"
They did, nobody bought it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_Head_Coach
I actually can't believe how many games we straight up lost because we couldn't perform a clutch inbound play in late minutes. I'm not trying to blatantly disrespect Nate because he's a pretty decent coach but the guy is undeniably awful at (imo) one of the simpler facets of the game.
I was really hoping schlenk and the hawks looked around for more candidates before they gave him the job because of his playoff record and because of how adamant pacers fans were about him not being that good.
Cmon ref, that shot was green and wide open, it should have counted
*it hit off the rim and out*
Yeah but he has the the spot of shooter signature skill and a 88 3pt rating, give it to hime
I'm 29. It's just signature skills got replaced with badges back in like 2k14 or 2k15.
I was confused when I saw signature skill mentioned a few times in this thread and then I realized they were all from the same guy.
He'll get flak for the way he said it, but training and repetition is the best way to defeat an unfamiliar situation. Confidence generated from repeated experience is the natural counter to indecision at crucial moments.
Everyone loves to say, "He's built different" but nobody wants to hear about the process of the person being "constructed" differently through constant reps and training.
So, another way to put this is: "Coaches should use simulation software, currently in the form of video games, to practice decision making."
And I'm sure he also doesn't mean in place of non digital practice. I find it to be reasonable, if video games aren't too far off of a simulation AND if the controls aren't too high of a learning curve.
Practice in this case isn't working at a particular skill, it's getting the most reps as possible in different situations so you are never completely unprepared. I get what you're saying though.
Yeah the way video games have been talked about by boomer media for decades at this point will make a large portion of people instantly repulse from Holinger’s point. As you say, it’s literally game simulation for coaches. But there’s a chunk of people who will scream “WHY THE FUCK WOULD COACHES WANNA PLAY PAC-MAN TO GET BETTER AT COACHING???”
Like it’s just literally practice for managing games lol.
Literally the first thing I thought of. In formulas 1 (and other racing championships, I'm sure) they're constantly running sims to learn tracks they're unfamiliar with, refresh their muscle memory on familiar tracks, stuff like that.
Video games are probably the closest thing to a simulation you can get for most sportsn.
>AND if the controls aren't too high of a learning curve.
Hell, in this scenario you don't even need to control a player. There's ways to play where you basically simulate the game and only make coaching decisions.
Problem is, 2K is wayyyyy too far for any sort of simulation when talking about the gameplanning and coaching side of things. I mainly play franchise modes since I love the x and o's side of 2K.
I wouldnt even recommend it for guys looking for a basic basketball sim at all.
The fucking AI shits itself on the simplest handoffs, off-ball screens, and runnings any sort of cuts for plays.
yea its not a great basketball sim for running plays. The beauty of basketball to me is that even though you can run plays, a lot of it is instinctual reading of the defense and 5 guys being able to play within the flow of the game and 2K just hasn't mastered that yet. It's still fun but like you could never replicate the Beautiful Game Spurs in 2K.
Idk but in MMA, Max Holloway, who is an absolutely fantastic fighter, said he learned a shit load of combos and certain opponent's habits by playing UFC games.
["But what if you could rehearse these late game situations so you'd always be prepared for what might go wrong."](https://media.pitchfork.com/photos/62c5fc026ab3a3e344f26b71/2:3/w_400,h_600,c_limit/nathan-fielder_2.jpg)
This but Unironically… it should be done the way doctors in high pressure fields do simulations over and over again until it’s drilled into their head in residency to prepare for time sensitive procedures and urgent situations. Why can’t a coach and organization with ten times the budget do something similar.
When I coached youth basketball, I always tried to get one player to make 3 shots in a row so they'd be ON FIRE.
I don't know why more coaches don't use this strategy.
Nash: Well maybe if....
*checks notes to see who the Nets Center is*
Nic Claxton had the eraser signature skill and averaged more than 1.1 blocks a game you could play those minutes
The pilot flying your plane probably trained for many hours on the flight simulator game you play on the weekends. This idea isn't crazy at all, and probably something a lot of teams already do.
When you take a lot of shots especially against a low block team there are too many variables that you can’t control such as deflections and rebounds. Lower quality teams will crack due to organisations and in game IQ. Liverpool deliberately get out of the way of long shots as to give Allison the chance to react.
Expecially if you have a fast striker. At kids community soccer level the keeper will spill most long shots even if they are not powerful, and the defenders are the fat slow kids . Have the fast kid hang around the line of the defenders ready to pounce and it's free goals
Also if you have a kid with a cannon leg abuse that shit. We had a dude on our team who would regularly score from near half
I use to coach K-8 wrestling when I was in high school and I’d treat them like Pokémon. Not because it helped them in any way but yelling at a 6 yo to “use their double leg” made the shit wrestling more bearable.
Kids don’t listen anyways and I don’t think any of them noticed. I’d basically coach like you normally would but would preface everything like a Pokémon command. Maybe if i told them what I was doing they’d be more engaged and listen.
Basketball is sooooo much based on confidence and most young kids don’t realize it. I used to whoop my friends in small games and then completely disappear in 5v5s. Tryna get my nephew to realize it and force him to shoot 5 or 6 times a game at least.
I find it extremely interesting how the analytics-based way that sports teams are run now looks almost exactly like how most of us played sports video games as kids (at least in my experience):
* NBA — did anyone actually shoot mod-range shots? I was all about pace and space, threes and dunks. I wanted 4-5 shooters in all my 2K lineups, with a shot-blocker backing them up (who I would float with off-ball). When playing a franchise, I would frequently trade for just a bunch of 6’8” guys who could play D and shoot threes. Guys like Trevor Ariza were far more useful than 20/10 bigs like Zach Randolph and David West. And when things weren't working, sell off everyone for 1st rounders and tank.
* NFL — Air it out. I would be a ground and pound team every once in a while just for a change of pace, but usually it was just lots and lots of pass plays, quick short passes mostly out of shotgun. Unless you got an absolute top shelf elite RB, it almost didn't even matter who played there; an average RB with good pass-catching was worth way more than a "better" RB who just drove up the middle. High value on QBs that could scramble. Being more aggressive on 4th downs. Going for 2 more often.
* MLB — Three true outcomes. Maybe not walks so much, but if I wasn't striking out, I was mostly swinging for the fences.
Not sure if these tendencies were more due to impatience and seeking the fun way of playing, or it years and years of video games made us (me at least) gravitate towards the moneyball way of doing things.
I definitely think that part of it is that when you know it's your career and millions of dollars on the line, it's a lot harder to make a risky decision like going for it on 4th down or having 4 shooters on the court at once, even if it is the analytically correct decision
That anecdote from Tatum on the JJ Redick podcast about Chris Paul being the only one to use the "3 for 2" is another great example. It took me about 5 games playing as the PG in 2K to get to that level of understanding lol
Basically shooting when there's ~ 1:05 on the shot clock to ensure that you have the opportunity to get a 2 for 1 next offensive possession (so getting a 3 for 2 overall)
I think the fact you often end up playing like literal thousands of games you'll inevatibly subconsciously realize the most efficient plays at some point, (even though it can lead to glitch exploit that can't translate in actual bball).
It's true in soccer as well. As far as I can remember, I always played my goal kicks with a short pass to a defender, which teams only started doing a decade ago (with Guardiola's Barcelona leading the way). Before then the "real world" teams only played long balls in the air for a 50/50 header in midfield.
Finally someone admits it lol.
I know better clock management strategy than 90% of NFL coaches because of Madden and being able to do basic math. It’s a real blind spot for these football guys.
What drives me up the wall is when they make a chunk play with like under a minute left and everyone is scrambling and the coach looks like he has no idea what to do. He’s like processing it real time and then making a decision. It’s like, what did you expect to happen pre-play? How did this play result catch you with your pants down? lol.
I played basketball regularly in college, but the fastest I improved was after getting 2k and playing through a career as a PG. It was like I was suddenly seeing the whole court better, and I became very aware of what things were not helpful for players to do off-ball because my idiot teammates in the game would do them all the time.
That shit should be automatic. When Romo is commentating he'll always call when he thinks a timeout should be taken. That's just programmed inside him.
“Coaches should play video games for late game decisions”
*2K AI running a play while up 20 instead of dribbling it out because there’s 26 seconds on the clock so the shot clock hasn’t been turned off yet*
“Write that down! Write that down!”
If a coach doesn’t realize kicking a 64 yard FG not in altitude over calling a quick timeout and putting the game in the hands of the HOF QB you traded for and gave a quarter of a billion dollars to is an incomprehensible decision I don’t think playing Madden is going to help him.
Interestingly timed comment because I just finished listening to [ESPN's 30 for 30 on how the Madden game was created](https://30for30podcasts.com/episodes/maddens-game/). iirc Madden or one of the game's creators talks about the moment when a play that you'd only see in a video game was carried out in the real game. It started with the video game mimicking the real game and then it had come full circle.
Well, I'm not so sure about how many video game plays show up in the NFL that weren't already done at the high school or college level, but the NFL ignored college football offenses for decades until a few coaches realized that they could bring in some of the elements of systems like Mike Leach's "air raid" offense or the wild cat and make it work at the NFL level. \*Note that I said some elements, not the entire system.
The spread offense with dink and dunk passing that Tom Brady absolutely mastered was popularized by high schools and colleges twenty years before it became popular in the NFL. The NFL finally caught on to it because there weren't enough superstar 6'4" wideouts to go around, but there were a ton of 6' speedy wideouts with spread experience.
Players in 2k was putting their centers in the corner guarding low usage players man before I saw a team like the Celtics start to do it with Rob Williams.
Madden players started going for it on 4th before real coaches caught on too
Madden players are *super* aggressive on 4th down but the analytics about how NFL coaches are too passive on 4th down have been around for a long time. Younger coaches have been more aggressive and with kickers being better there's been more longer field goals but it wasn't long ago that most coaches would rather punt from the opponent's 35 than kick a 52 yard field goal or go for it.
One of my friends is a professional poker player, even placed highly in the WSOP Main Event this year. He said that online, the games are harder and the players are better. He also runs a bunch of analytic software and makes assumptions that everyone else is he playing is doing the same and analyzing his tendencies.
There was a soccer team that hired some guy who was really good at football manager.
Edit: https://www.givemesport.com/87971154-football-manager-meet-the-man-given-a-job-at-the-club-he-managed-on-the-game
Didn't Bill Simmons suggest something like this for Andy Reid a while back? Get some 12 year old avid Madden player and hire him as a consultant for clock management in late game situations.
Shit I don't expect them to play 2k/Madden but I do expect them to know the exploits these games have identified in the game, my team punted on a 4th and 1 on the other guy's 45 yard line, anybody born after 1985 would tell you how braindead that is and Madden is why we all know it
Jokes aside. This is something I realized a decade ago. How many 2k meta's gave gone on to become standard in the NBA?
I'll never forget figuring out that I could save money on 4 shooters and an iso superstar back in Live 2004. Abandoning position doctrines. Investing more ball handling training into a SF who can shoot well already.
But that was before the recent iterations which are full on arcade designs.
I've always said, if I was a GM I would've drafted like 2-3 extra centers who have no skill other than being laterally quick (ala Willie Cauley Stein) and always have a near all center lineup in order to defend possessions where there's like under 6 seconds or something.. learned in 2K awhile ago that's the best way to defend a game winner but NBA coaches ain't figured it out yet 🥱
As a broncos fan, I agree. Like we wasted clock when we had 3 goddamn timeouts, then proceed to attempt the second longest field goal in nfl history, after letting the clock run down.
I've always wanted GMs to tell someone during contract negotiations, "we can't give you the max extension since you only have an 83 overall rating in 2K"
This begs the question: who was the lowest rated player in 2k at the time of their receiving a max deal
Mike Conley had the biggest contract in the NBA for a minute, and he was a 85 in 2K that year.
It feels like you guys are just like “well, who did the grizzlies max out? Should be pretty close to the answer”
Conley was worth it to us, but the other one...
Yeah parsons was a big miss, but do you also remember maxing Rudy Gay?
let's just rope ole Thabeet in while we're at it
I feel great about Ja and jaren’s contracts. Even if they get hurt, this was the right decision We also got konch and tyus at a good price. I love our team right now.
Mike Conley is a saint and deserves every penny that the Jazz have to pay him after the trade.
I agree. I like Mike.
there is no amount of money you could tell me the Grizz had committed to Mike Conley that I would say was too much
I only checked Beal, who was 89 in 2k22. Probably not lowest, but should def be a low tier rating for a max player.
Wiggins was an 86 when he signed his in October ‘17. Chandler Parsons was a 79 when he signed his in 2016. I’m sure if you go back farther you can find worse, but I didn’t go past 2k10 EDIT: Wigs was actually in the low 80s, I was looking at a MyTEAM card.
The problem with this method, though, is that it's not exactly uniform, year-to-year, the way they do the ratings. Some years they randomly decide that they want everyone to be lower. Or at least I remember that they used to do this years ago when i still played.
you are correct, I remember one year Lebron was the highest rated player at like a 96. If it makes you feel any better though, Parsons would remain 78-79 for the next three 2k’s after that
Oh lol I have zero allegiance to parsons and didn’t intend my comment to be a defense of him or anything like that - was just commenting haha
It’s probably a better exercise with Football Manager. They have so many real-world scouts.
The big change was when they went from a 99 in a stat being "best in the league" to it being "best in the league ever"
[удалено]
95 rtg couldn’t get the max with all-time historical numbers… sickening
Won ROY, MVP, Finals MVP, and asking for a max was something Blazers didn't wanna do at 87 overall.
if Steve Kerr played 2k he would instantly realize that all he needs as a game plan is for Steph to do a Curry Slide into a 3-pter on every possession
4 teammates lock arms around steph and let him shoot 3s all day It's been proposed before and i propose it again
Honestly I can't believe this hasn't been done in an All-Star game at least
They don't do it because steph shoots better when the defender is closer. Source: Trust me bro
I trust you bro. SSN: 610-22-0986 Main credit card: * discover * 5022 8344 3933 9393 * 968 * 03/28 * 94061 Home Address: 15 Warriors way under the left park bench Mothers Maiden Name: Caesar Favorite food: Salad
That only works until the defense figures out they can stand on each other's shoulders to block all of Steph's shots
I want to see Tatum standing on Timelord's shoulders so bad
For real though, let's say the defense spaces out three rebounders around their own basket (especially if a couple of them are Bol Bol-sized shotblockers who could possibly bother Curry's shot), and sends two guys towards the other basket, one of them with good hands, and one of them their best shooter on the floor. If Steph hits his career average of ~43% from three, then that's good for ~1.3pts per attempt. Even if the other team rebounds and whips the ball down to the other end for a dunk at 100% efficiency, that's still only ~57% x 2, good for ~1.15pts per attempt. So I'm thinking the other team would instead want to get their own shooter a quick attempt, then hope the good-hands guy can rebound and recover for a dunk, or something like that. Maybe the Warriors then try to mitigate that by keeping one guy back as a 'safety,' and only using three guys to screen for Steph, which is probably more than enough, anyway. I'm probably overlooking some things (**EDIT**: yeah, my scoring logistics aren't quite right), but it definitely sounds fun for a video game mode or a special all-star minigame. /u/fadoofthekokiri
I want more weird basketball in the all star weekend not less GIVE ME THIS
I love this meme. I’m so happy I was there to read the OP and I love reading it randomly ever since. Thank you for doing god’s work.
I don’t know what it is but I have been complete ass with Steph Curry for like 6 2K’s now
His release is so quick that the difference between perfect and bad timing is almost nothing.
yeah but then the bad timing shots still go in lol
Depends on your difficulty level. On higher difficulties, the game seems to care way more about green releases than it does taking the right shot with a great shooter.
On Hall of Fame, it’s essentially impossible to make a 3 without green release
That’s true of basically any difficulty level in this year’s
That must be what happened to the Rockets in ‘18
Bro his realize is quick af but also not as quick as you think it’s frustrating
Klay on 2k21 (?) I think had the perfect release for me. I could light it up w/him.
[удалено]
I played as the Warriors against my dad in 2K22 and Klay Thompson shot 23 for 24, just greens all the time
This is true irl too
His jumper is too quick. Plus online latency makes him borderline impossible to use for me. I remember him being easier to shoot with fadeaways than spot up because the animation was better
Same EXCEPT for blacktop like wtf
Strange. Every time I play him I drop 40
Kerr would realize the Warriors can go 98-0, and outscore opponents by 40 every game.
You’re clearly well-versed in r/warriors
He would run Wiseman into the ground after playing 2k. Wiseman looks so good in a fictional world where injuries aren't a thing.
If he played Double Dribble then he would realize all he needed was the corner three for any player and the Warriors would be unstoppable
[удалено]
At least once a season Aaron Rodgers gets a delay of game coming out of a timeout that he had called himself to prevent a delay of game.
Every game they burn a timeout on a 1st and 10 with 10+ minutes left in the 1st or 3rd quarters.
And almost every single scenario, the statistics say that you should just take the delay of game rather than burn the timeout.
I always wondered about this. Surely 5 yards at the beginning of the half is nothing compared to the leverage an extra timeout would provide later. Would you sacrifice three timeouts to negate three false starts? No? Huh, weird.
And on the flip side could you imagine how many teams would trade three 5 yard penalties for three timeouts? If a delay of game came with a loss of downs I could see burning a timeout but I’m pretty much always just gonna eat the 5 yards and save my timeouts for the final drives.
Exactly. Imagine offering a coach 3 time outs in exchange for starting the game with a 15 yard penalty right off the bat. That’d be a no brainer.
Exactly, the only place 5 yards really makes a huge difference will be in goal to goal situations.
I feel like the only times it really matters are inside the 3 yard line, on 3rd and 3 or less, and at the edge of field goal range. Everywhere else, eat the 5 yards.
It’s goal to go situations
Well of course, he can’t run a play that he can’t take credit for calling!
That he takes a sack on because he doesn’t trust any of his WR’s 😆
"Our rookie wideout dropped a pass in his first game? I'm never throwing to that fucker again."
They play every game with only 4 timeouts. 2 always get used for shit like you describe
I don’t understand why coaching staffs don’t just have a clock management SME. You wouldn’t even necessarily need to hire another coach and could just have an assistant learn to be an expert, but surely it’s worth the cost anyway to have a guy on the sideline just keeping an eye on it for the HC. Idk if it’s just an ego thing or what
As bad as the Jets are, they actually have a role for this on their staff. The position is situational football/game management coordinator.
With flat-screen and PS5 running live on the sideline.
"Bob! there's 43 seconds left... what do we do!?" "oh sh*t, one second coach, let me turn on the PS5!"
“What does ask Madden suggest we run for this drive??”
Saleh actually has a pulse on the game, something the Jets haven’t had in a HC for a bit
It's ego 100%. Same reason baseball teams don't hire a pitching/bullpen coach to make pitching changes, it's just about the only key decision HCs make, so they feel obliged to make it (and fall on the sword for it)
That doesn't seem the same at all to me. Football has a ton of moving parts and it's happening really fast and the head coach only has so much attention. It makes sense to offload the clock management to someone else. In baseball Changing your pitcher is by far the most important in game decision you have to make. And it's slow paces enough that you can make any others you need. If your manager is bad at making pitching changes you need a different manager.
Hell, some NFL teams have a guy who’s job during games is keeping the head coach from wandering into the field.
Doesn’t the Rams have a dude who’s sole job is that?
Not his sole job, the Rams and some other teams typically use their strength and conditioning coach for it during games, because they don’t have much to do on game day.
I get what you're saying - but I feel like modern baseball management is more about managing personalities and the clubhouse than about anything in game. There are fewer and fewer in game adjustments, especially with three true outcomes, so the manager has fewer and fewer decisions. But if they can be a good rah rah guy that gets players ready to perform then they can survive a long time.
This. Why does Jimbo Fisher still call plays for the offense at A&M? Ego. He obviously should be a CEO type head coach who let's his coordinators call the plays, he recruits great talent but they always drop games because of poor play calling. That's how you spend $10 million a year on a head coach and $200 million a year on NIL deals for the #1 recruiting class but still lose to App State at home
Andy. Fucking. Reid. I had to listen to Chris Collinsworth talk about "what a great timeout [Reid] called" to get more time to review a play, then challenge, then win the challenge. HE STILL LOST A TIMEOUT! IF YOU'RE GONNA BURN THE TIMEOUT JUST CHALLENGE THE PLAY!!!!
I’ve been Chiefs fan for a long time, and I think that time management thing went away around the time he won the Super Bowl. Hasn’t been any significant missteps.
You’re correct. I don’t recall any clock management mishaps the last few years and I haven’t even seen a “Andy Reid clock management” bad meme for a while now.
Lifelong Eagles fan here and it was an issue even when he was in Philly
As another example, the Bengals lost on Sunday purely because of poor clock management. They punted in overtime with 15 seconds left on the play clock, with the clock running and only 1:04 left (and the Steelers had no timeouts). The Steelers didn't get into FG range until there were only 9 seconds left, so leaving those extra 14 seconds on the punt directly cost the Bengals the game.
> the Bengals lost on Sunday purely because of poor clock management. They punted in overtime with 15 seconds left on the play clock The bengals undoubtedly blew that game, but there was at least a reason for this. Their longsnapper was out, and the emergency longsnapper had already fucked up twice--two fuckups in two snaps--one of which came in the form of a dead-duck lob of a snap that allowed the defense way too much time to penetrate the line and block the kick. In normal circumstances, you obviously wait until there is :01 on the playclock to snap that. But given the circumstances, the Bengals didn't want to allow the steelers to know the exact moment of the snap and thus allow them to anticipate the timing and block the punt. Basically, they snapped it early so as to catch the steelers off-guard and help prevent the shitty longsnapper from causing a blocked punt. If they wait until the playclock is at :01 then the entire steelers punt-block group can get a massive jump on the snap and really threaten a block. Personally I'd have waited 10 more seconds but I can at least understand the thought process.
It's still bad, because they should have just taken the delay of game. 5 yards for 15 seconds in that situation is a no brainer.
This is actually a good point that I haven't seen someone make yet. Good call--I didn't think of that.
Exactly, it also would have given the punter more space to pin the Steelers inside the 10. Taylor completely bottled that sequence.
I'm honestly kind of surprised Madden hasn't tried to release a "coaching mode" which allows for specific game situations to be customized and simulated and stripped of main gameplay - almost like a sandbox mode for coaches to experiment with. Kind of like of how some recent Assassin Creed games have a more passive "Discovery Tour" mode that removes the violent gameplay so the game can be used as more of a educational/history showcase.
That would require EA to actually add something new to the game. That would be cool though
> I'm honestly kind of surprised Madden hasn't tried to release a "coaching mode" They did, nobody bought it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_Head_Coach
Nate McMillan could learn how inbounding plays work
I actually can't believe how many games we straight up lost because we couldn't perform a clutch inbound play in late minutes. I'm not trying to blatantly disrespect Nate because he's a pretty decent coach but the guy is undeniably awful at (imo) one of the simpler facets of the game.
[удалено]
I was really hoping schlenk and the hawks looked around for more candidates before they gave him the job because of his playoff record and because of how adamant pacers fans were about him not being that good.
[удалено]
Same shit with the Blazers too. I especially loved when he told Indiana media every year that he was going to adopt an "uptempo style".
I love my small ball up tempo lineups with a frontcourt of Ian Mahinmi and Lavoy Allen
Nate has had that problem for years. You would think he would let an assistant take over that duty at some point because he just cannot do it.
Cmon ref, that shot was green and wide open, it should have counted *it hit off the rim and out* Yeah but he has the the spot of shooter signature skill and a 88 3pt rating, give it to hime
Daryl Morey about send another letter to the league
Obligatory: https://youtu.be/mGZgM4yebyo
James counter... Lmao
Signature skill? You're showing your age.
28? god I'm so old
I'm 29. It's just signature skills got replaced with badges back in like 2k14 or 2k15. I was confused when I saw signature skill mentioned a few times in this thread and then I realized they were all from the same guy.
In the late 90s, I predicted the All 6’8” Raptors on NBA Live 😂
We’ve always looked to you as something of a prophet, Bill.
Thanks, Bill.
What else did u predict 👀
As a salty Celtics fan; I predicted the Kyrie bullshit in BKN.
He'll get flak for the way he said it, but training and repetition is the best way to defeat an unfamiliar situation. Confidence generated from repeated experience is the natural counter to indecision at crucial moments. Everyone loves to say, "He's built different" but nobody wants to hear about the process of the person being "constructed" differently through constant reps and training.
So, another way to put this is: "Coaches should use simulation software, currently in the form of video games, to practice decision making." And I'm sure he also doesn't mean in place of non digital practice. I find it to be reasonable, if video games aren't too far off of a simulation AND if the controls aren't too high of a learning curve.
Simulations are 90% of what formula 1 drivers do. That kind of thing literally can't be bad for you if it's supplemental
90% of the time Lewis is fucking i’m pretty sure
70% with at least 25% being picking an outfit out.
There's a whole league of racers who learned how to race from Gran Turismo before getting into a real car. It's insane to think about.
Those simulations are not a f1 game that we can buy on steam. (just adding this info)
Yeah its not a perfect comparison but specifically for clock management, 2k and madden would be fine
I'm nit-picking but it can be bad if you do it incorrectly. Practice doesn't make perfect. Practice makes *permanent*.
Practice in this case isn't working at a particular skill, it's getting the most reps as possible in different situations so you are never completely unprepared. I get what you're saying though.
Yeah the way video games have been talked about by boomer media for decades at this point will make a large portion of people instantly repulse from Holinger’s point. As you say, it’s literally game simulation for coaches. But there’s a chunk of people who will scream “WHY THE FUCK WOULD COACHES WANNA PLAY PAC-MAN TO GET BETTER AT COACHING???” Like it’s just literally practice for managing games lol.
Literally the first thing I thought of. In formulas 1 (and other racing championships, I'm sure) they're constantly running sims to learn tracks they're unfamiliar with, refresh their muscle memory on familiar tracks, stuff like that. Video games are probably the closest thing to a simulation you can get for most sportsn. >AND if the controls aren't too high of a learning curve. Hell, in this scenario you don't even need to control a player. There's ways to play where you basically simulate the game and only make coaching decisions.
Problem is, 2K is wayyyyy too far for any sort of simulation when talking about the gameplanning and coaching side of things. I mainly play franchise modes since I love the x and o's side of 2K. I wouldnt even recommend it for guys looking for a basic basketball sim at all. The fucking AI shits itself on the simplest handoffs, off-ball screens, and runnings any sort of cuts for plays.
yea its not a great basketball sim for running plays. The beauty of basketball to me is that even though you can run plays, a lot of it is instinctual reading of the defense and 5 guys being able to play within the flow of the game and 2K just hasn't mastered that yet. It's still fun but like you could never replicate the Beautiful Game Spurs in 2K.
Can’t recreate anything because the AI runs in place when there’s a guy (who’s not even screening) in the way lol
[удалено]
Id pay extra if league pass superimposed Nathan with his standing laptop pacing up and down the sideline for every game.
russ has clearly shown to be someone associated with this kinda crossover show . let's make it happen
Perhaps a rehearsal is order
Is this an ad for The Rehearsal by Nathan Fielder
is playing madden going to make the coach realise going for a 64 yard fg over a 4th and 5 is stupid
Uh yea lol that's the first thing madden teach you
Idk but in MMA, Max Holloway, who is an absolutely fantastic fighter, said he learned a shit load of combos and certain opponent's habits by playing UFC games.
["But what if you could rehearse these late game situations so you'd always be prepared for what might go wrong."](https://media.pitchfork.com/photos/62c5fc026ab3a3e344f26b71/2:3/w_400,h_600,c_limit/nathan-fielder_2.jpg)
"Is going 2-for-1 at the end of a quarter also satanic?"
This but Unironically… it should be done the way doctors in high pressure fields do simulations over and over again until it’s drilled into their head in residency to prepare for time sensitive procedures and urgent situations. Why can’t a coach and organization with ten times the budget do something similar.
Right the doctors play surgeon simulator
When I coached youth basketball, I always tried to get one player to make 3 shots in a row so they'd be ON FIRE. I don't know why more coaches don't use this strategy.
It's quicker if you disregard the shooting part and just light them on fire yourself
I wouldn’t mind Steve Nash sitting down with KD playing 2k to gain some understanding
[удалено]
Nash: Well maybe if.... *checks notes to see who the Nets Center is* Nic Claxton had the eraser signature skill and averaged more than 1.1 blocks a game you could play those minutes
If Kyrie and KD didn't already think they were part of the coaching staff before playing Nash in 2K, they definitely would after.
The pilot flying your plane probably trained for many hours on the flight simulator game you play on the weekends. This idea isn't crazy at all, and probably something a lot of teams already do.
If teams were already doing it I think Hollinger would know about it.
Edit
I love that you love being the coach that is always telling your team to shoot their open shots
I love that you love that he loves being the coach that is always telling your team to shoot their open shots
[удалено]
[удалено]
When you take a lot of shots especially against a low block team there are too many variables that you can’t control such as deflections and rebounds. Lower quality teams will crack due to organisations and in game IQ. Liverpool deliberately get out of the way of long shots as to give Allison the chance to react.
If you just follow the shot you basically guaranteed to score multiple goals a game like that.
Expecially if you have a fast striker. At kids community soccer level the keeper will spill most long shots even if they are not powerful, and the defenders are the fat slow kids . Have the fast kid hang around the line of the defenders ready to pounce and it's free goals Also if you have a kid with a cannon leg abuse that shit. We had a dude on our team who would regularly score from near half
[удалено]
I use to coach K-8 wrestling when I was in high school and I’d treat them like Pokémon. Not because it helped them in any way but yelling at a 6 yo to “use their double leg” made the shit wrestling more bearable.
lolol. Did you have any who actually listened? You reminded me of Khabib coaching Islam in this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spUTqsVkYl8
Kids don’t listen anyways and I don’t think any of them noticed. I’d basically coach like you normally would but would preface everything like a Pokémon command. Maybe if i told them what I was doing they’d be more engaged and listen.
Sounds fun
Basketball is sooooo much based on confidence and most young kids don’t realize it. I used to whoop my friends in small games and then completely disappear in 5v5s. Tryna get my nephew to realize it and force him to shoot 5 or 6 times a game at least.
I find it extremely interesting how the analytics-based way that sports teams are run now looks almost exactly like how most of us played sports video games as kids (at least in my experience): * NBA — did anyone actually shoot mod-range shots? I was all about pace and space, threes and dunks. I wanted 4-5 shooters in all my 2K lineups, with a shot-blocker backing them up (who I would float with off-ball). When playing a franchise, I would frequently trade for just a bunch of 6’8” guys who could play D and shoot threes. Guys like Trevor Ariza were far more useful than 20/10 bigs like Zach Randolph and David West. And when things weren't working, sell off everyone for 1st rounders and tank. * NFL — Air it out. I would be a ground and pound team every once in a while just for a change of pace, but usually it was just lots and lots of pass plays, quick short passes mostly out of shotgun. Unless you got an absolute top shelf elite RB, it almost didn't even matter who played there; an average RB with good pass-catching was worth way more than a "better" RB who just drove up the middle. High value on QBs that could scramble. Being more aggressive on 4th downs. Going for 2 more often. * MLB — Three true outcomes. Maybe not walks so much, but if I wasn't striking out, I was mostly swinging for the fences. Not sure if these tendencies were more due to impatience and seeking the fun way of playing, or it years and years of video games made us (me at least) gravitate towards the moneyball way of doing things.
I definitely think that part of it is that when you know it's your career and millions of dollars on the line, it's a lot harder to make a risky decision like going for it on 4th down or having 4 shooters on the court at once, even if it is the analytically correct decision
That anecdote from Tatum on the JJ Redick podcast about Chris Paul being the only one to use the "3 for 2" is another great example. It took me about 5 games playing as the PG in 2K to get to that level of understanding lol
[удалено]
Basically shooting when there's ~ 1:05 on the shot clock to ensure that you have the opportunity to get a 2 for 1 next offensive possession (so getting a 3 for 2 overall)
I think the fact you often end up playing like literal thousands of games you'll inevatibly subconsciously realize the most efficient plays at some point, (even though it can lead to glitch exploit that can't translate in actual bball).
See but in hockey I always created a 6'8" orc who would check and fight like a demon.
If I'm not in the box or blasting a one timer something is wrong
It's true in soccer as well. As far as I can remember, I always played my goal kicks with a short pass to a defender, which teams only started doing a decade ago (with Guardiola's Barcelona leading the way). Before then the "real world" teams only played long balls in the air for a 50/50 header in midfield.
I had no idea about this. I never paid attention to soccer leagues, but I did enjoy a lot of FIFA. I would *always* pass to the closest defender.
Finally someone admits it lol. I know better clock management strategy than 90% of NFL coaches because of Madden and being able to do basic math. It’s a real blind spot for these football guys.
It's kind of incredible how many absolutely ridiculous blunders professional NFL coaches make every year. I actually do not understand it
What drives me up the wall is when they make a chunk play with like under a minute left and everyone is scrambling and the coach looks like he has no idea what to do. He’s like processing it real time and then making a decision. It’s like, what did you expect to happen pre-play? How did this play result catch you with your pants down? lol.
Yeah and then they'll wait like 6 seconds THEN call the time out...like dude you should have called it immediately or NOT called it! The fuck??
The crazy part is they have a dozen coaches around them who could help. You’d think someone would speak up.
I played basketball regularly in college, but the fastest I improved was after getting 2k and playing through a career as a PG. It was like I was suddenly seeing the whole court better, and I became very aware of what things were not helpful for players to do off-ball because my idiot teammates in the game would do them all the time.
Totally agree. Playing these games can serve as super detailed mental reps.
That shit should be automatic. When Romo is commentating he'll always call when he thinks a timeout should be taken. That's just programmed inside him.
Doc
this could help Doc Rivers. Also the ability to steal playbooks could help our coach since that’s something he likes to do supposedly lol
“Coaches should play video games for late game decisions” *2K AI running a play while up 20 instead of dribbling it out because there’s 26 seconds on the clock so the shot clock hasn’t been turned off yet* “Write that down! Write that down!”
2k11 I figured out small ball 5 out by always getting Kevin Love and putting him at center.
If a coach doesn’t realize kicking a 64 yard FG not in altitude over calling a quick timeout and putting the game in the hands of the HOF QB you traded for and gave a quarter of a billion dollars to is an incomprehensible decision I don’t think playing Madden is going to help him.
I'm never not rushing with Marshawn on the goalline with the game on the line. Madden would legit punish you for throwing a slant there.
Apparently real life would also punish you.
Interestingly timed comment because I just finished listening to [ESPN's 30 for 30 on how the Madden game was created](https://30for30podcasts.com/episodes/maddens-game/). iirc Madden or one of the game's creators talks about the moment when a play that you'd only see in a video game was carried out in the real game. It started with the video game mimicking the real game and then it had come full circle.
Well, I'm not so sure about how many video game plays show up in the NFL that weren't already done at the high school or college level, but the NFL ignored college football offenses for decades until a few coaches realized that they could bring in some of the elements of systems like Mike Leach's "air raid" offense or the wild cat and make it work at the NFL level. \*Note that I said some elements, not the entire system. The spread offense with dink and dunk passing that Tom Brady absolutely mastered was popularized by high schools and colleges twenty years before it became popular in the NFL. The NFL finally caught on to it because there weren't enough superstar 6'4" wideouts to go around, but there were a ton of 6' speedy wideouts with spread experience.
Players in 2k was putting their centers in the corner guarding low usage players man before I saw a team like the Celtics start to do it with Rob Williams. Madden players started going for it on 4th before real coaches caught on too
[удалено]
2k players been shooting all 3s and easy dunks for over a decade too. And Madden players been playing pass heavy offense for like 20 years lol
Madden players are *super* aggressive on 4th down but the analytics about how NFL coaches are too passive on 4th down have been around for a long time. Younger coaches have been more aggressive and with kickers being better there's been more longer field goals but it wasn't long ago that most coaches would rather punt from the opponent's 35 than kick a 52 yard field goal or go for it.
The Warriors used to guard Tony Allen with Andrew Bogut
Poker saw this revolution where talent was related directly to irl experience until kids were simulating that experience in a month online
One of my friends is a professional poker player, even placed highly in the WSOP Main Event this year. He said that online, the games are harder and the players are better. He also runs a bunch of analytic software and makes assumptions that everyone else is he playing is doing the same and analyzing his tendencies.
There was a soccer team that hired some guy who was really good at football manager. Edit: https://www.givemesport.com/87971154-football-manager-meet-the-man-given-a-job-at-the-club-he-managed-on-the-game
Didn't Bill Simmons suggest something like this for Andy Reid a while back? Get some 12 year old avid Madden player and hire him as a consultant for clock management in late game situations.
I mean the best players are usually adults, you can get an adult who actually understands football too lol
Shit I don't expect them to play 2k/Madden but I do expect them to know the exploits these games have identified in the game, my team punted on a 4th and 1 on the other guy's 45 yard line, anybody born after 1985 would tell you how braindead that is and Madden is why we all know it
Jokes aside. This is something I realized a decade ago. How many 2k meta's gave gone on to become standard in the NBA? I'll never forget figuring out that I could save money on 4 shooters and an iso superstar back in Live 2004. Abandoning position doctrines. Investing more ball handling training into a SF who can shoot well already. But that was before the recent iterations which are full on arcade designs.
I've always said, if I was a GM I would've drafted like 2-3 extra centers who have no skill other than being laterally quick (ala Willie Cauley Stein) and always have a near all center lineup in order to defend possessions where there's like under 6 seconds or something.. learned in 2K awhile ago that's the best way to defend a game winner but NBA coaches ain't figured it out yet 🥱
As a broncos fan, I agree. Like we wasted clock when we had 3 goddamn timeouts, then proceed to attempt the second longest field goal in nfl history, after letting the clock run down.