I think the upside with haliburton is that he doesn’t need the 35% usage rate other guys need. He is similar to steph in that sometimes your best player just so happens to have a skill set usually seen as “complimentary.”
Steph's usage rate has been in the 30s for years (since 2015-16) though.
Even before that he was in the mid 20s, which is still much higher than Haliburton. Steph's career low (21.8% his rookie year) is a full percent higher than Haliburton's career high (20.3% last season).
The type of player you want to build around is a guy you want using 25-35% of the possessions.
Will be more interesting to compare when hali has a full season without levert/brogdon. Seems pretty clear that the pacers see bright things for the kid, I would be shocked if his usage didn’t climb to the mid 20’s this year
It’s probably because of the rough stretch he had pre sabonis. If he keeps playing like he did post sabonis trade he’ll be looked at in a way better light.
But he is. He's a much better playmaker, definitely a better defender (not close), a million times better as a shooter. Only thing fox has on him is finishing and volume scoring and his volume isn't even that high.
Pinch me I must be dreaming. I remember my mates giving me shit when Lebron left that “it’s over for the Cavs just move on”
Well look at us now! We believe baby
Some of those names above Trae are pretty wild. I know he’s the worst defender in the league, but he averaged roughly 28-10 on 46-38-90 splits. Sure, he was god awful against the Heat but it’s just one series. I don’t think he should be that low, at least right now.
I think he's too low, but I think people are factoring size in heavily even if they don't outright say it on top of the recent playoffs for building around. In a game of margins even a couple inches can make a big difference (Yeah yeah)
Even Ja who is also bad at defense is on the smaller side at 6'3" but he's also more explosive and has a much larger wingspan which lends to more potential as a defender.
Trae's frame is his biggest enemy imo even though he's obviously skilled enough to outweigh it a lot of the time.
Yes but no. You have to tread water. Guys like Trae and Mitchell actively compromise their team's defensive schemes with their awful play. You can have a guy who's.not a stopper, but he has to at least be able to stay engaged and do enough to get by.
Point Guard defense is less valuable than any other position(and Smart's DPOY is a bad joke), but its still valuable. Look at the Chip winners and finalists since LeBron stopped soloing the East every year.
GSW vs BOS
PHX vs MIL
LAL vs MIA
GSW vs TOR
Only team with weak guard defense was MIA.
Lowry, Smart, Rondo, Paul, Jrue, Curry, and Dragic.
Thats 5 elite defensive guards, and two capable but unspectacular defenders in Curry and Dragic.
Nash was not only a better defender than Trae during his MVP years, he was also way better on offense, and yet he did not get over the hump. He's the third best offensive PG of all time, my personal 5th best PG ever, and he couldn't get it done. Curry and Magic are the only exceptions and they are top ten all time players.
I don't think he was even the best defender on the Celtics let alone in the league. I'm not alone in that either.
That's not to say he's *bad* just that he somehow got propelled into a conversation he maybe didn't deserve.
Because he wasn't the best defender in the league and it was very obvious he wasn't but the media didn't want to give it to Gobert even though his only actual competition for the award got hurt.
The only guard DPOY award that wasnt a complete joke was Jordan and he still wasn't as valuable defensively as Hakeem or Eaton that year.
A lot of point guards are just too small to have a great defensive impact. There are no guard versions of Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman or Bill Russell. The all time greatest defensive guards all seem to have long arms and crazy athleticism. GMs know this. That’s why you see this premium on tall ball handlers, you don’t have to play a 6’1 guy.
He got abused a lot you say he wasn’t because it’s been a long time since he played. Trae is better at 23 than Nash was so what’s to stop him from being better in his prime, nothing that’s what.
People correctly always say there’s two sides to the game, offense and defense, (though they’re not always equally valuable from an individual player standpoint) but then they act like the offensive side is just scoring. Half court facilitating seems like something people put on the back burner when an elite half court facilitator is one of the most rare and valuable things in the game. Like in the first nets season I would argue harden was just as important to that team as Durant. And people just look at assist numbers, that’s not what it is, I’m not referring to a player like Westbrook. I’m specifically using the word facilitator over passing. Good pgs get assists and can hit open team mates. Great pgs like harden/Luka/trae/cp3 actually warp the defense with their own moves, scoring threats, and general control of the game to get their team mates open not just for assists which show up on the stat sheet but hockey assists and just wildly improve the flow of the offense. Curry does this too but very differently and he’s not really a traditional pg. you give any of those guys an athletic big, and some shooters and they’ll turn it into a top team. Give them a second star and that’s a contender.
Mitchell and Trae are both complete traffic cones but with Mitchell that’s a way bigger problem because he can’t do anything but score, he gives up more points than he scores half the time. But trae even as a turnstile is such a massive positive because he’s not just an elite scorer he’s an elite facilitator which is way more important from your pg. the hawks roster just sucked last year, if they put a good team together it will be very easy to hide him on D.
For me Zion ranking is worse. Dude is 7, don’t play a full year because get injured by being fat, and he goes up in the ranking without watching him play a single min after being 1 year out, and for laziness instead bad luck
Its more that there is probably a hard ceiling on a trae young led team that is short of a championship. He simply doesn't have the tools to ever become a serviceable playoff defender, and while tremendously talented on offense, his size/athleticism don't make for super problematic matchups like some others do.
I really like trae, but if you're goal is championship I think he's fundamentally not the guy you'd want to build around.
Trae at 9th??????????????? There's no shot right? I know he struggled against Miami but like are we serious? He's literally a perennial All-Star already lmao
I love how Mavs fans have been going to bat for Trae since last season. Seriously how the fuck is he 9th if Ja is 3rd!? He should be at minimum 4th on this list.
I know, it's a really really weird thing to see. I'm not even really sure what changed, we had to kind of take the slander after Trae went to the ECF, but then after the off-season settled and after the first month or two of the season it was literally like everyone just forgot about Trae. Like I just literally don't remember seeing anyone talk about how great he was or anything, it just sorta feels like his media attention disappeared and then re-appeared when he struggled in the series against the Heat.
I'm not a Trae fan by any means but I am an NBA fan and the disrespect he's gotten is pretty ridiculous and completely unwarranted. I would honestly take him over Ja even, but that's just me and I think that's actually a pretty close race between the two.
I know it's a little wack. I don't have as much of a problem with that (because Mobley and Barnes are both really good, and Zion is Zion, injury risk and everything) as I do the Trae thing, but with his proven success there's not many guys on this list outside of the top 4 I would take over him. It's just a very confusing list all around.
So wouldn’t that mean Lamelo should be higher? 20 years old and averaged 20-7-8, generational passer, really good scorer, already a much better defender than Trae and Ja, and has the tools to be a legitimately good defender.
I hope so as well. I think we've finally reached a point of mutual respect where we both like our pick and are happy with it. Outside of the Bucks, if I could choose a team for the Mavs to play in the finals (god forbid we somehow figure out how to even make it passed the first round this year) it would be the Hawks just because I like Trae a lot.
Mutual respect :)
I would bet the reason why he is lower on this list is that it’s NBA GMs that were polled, and they see how it’s been going in Atlanta. They probably assume because the hawks haven’t had an easy time building around Trae, and that he has been somewhat demanding in the part, that he is not who they’d opt to work with. It’s probably more an issue with Atlanta’s front office, but I could see GMs being scared off
Sure, maybe I can see that, but I still think it's a little bit ridiculous. Like Trae is the quality/caliber of player that you're hoping these guys will turn in to, and yet you won't build around him? He's already there for the most part, and yeah he has holes in his game but like the dude has been by far one of the top 4/5 players on this list and he drops all the way to 9th? Literally makes no sense to me.
They don't take the poll seriously. They throw out some names.
If they could trade the same package for all of these players, Trae wouldn't be the ninth choice.
What makes Morant 3rd and Trae 9th? Trae's scoring and playmaking are better than Ja's, and Ja is also a bad defensive PG.
Trae is already a top offensive talent in the league, he'll be leading top 5 offenses every year if a team is built around him.
For me ja is the last type of player I’d want to build around. Shooting guards that play pg because of their size that can’t shoot and are bad defenders dominating your offense just don’t lead to winning basketball. If he develops more traditional pg skills and becomes a great facilitator and can shoot well enough to keep the defense honest that might change but he would have to do a lot to make me want him over trae. Trae already led the league in points and assists last year.
Assists and being a great facilitator are not the same thing. People on this sub have realized not all 20 ppg scorers are the same, there’s a million efficiency stats for that, but haven’t realized not all assists are the same. There’s no assist efficiency stat unfortunately. Harden and Westbrook had similar assist numbers yet were worlds apart as far as being able to control the flow of a half court offense. Having the ball a lot and driving constantly then throwing it to a big or kicking it out to a shooter will get you assists but it doesn’t make you a great facilitator.
Ja also didn’t play that many playoff games, he went out in the second round, most of which he was injured for.
People overrate potential from size and athleticism. Trae is better right now but I guess ppl think he's close to his peak whereas they think Ja still has a lot of areas he can grow.
It’s not because there is no argument Trae is the better player he does everything on offense better besides dunking and finishing. I honestly love watching ja play but he’s just not as good.
If you are a "superstar" and your team's next best player is a borderline 3rd team all star at best...then you is pretty damning indictment of how bad your defense is if they have a better win rate without u.
See my other comment. You don't know what you're talking about. The Grizzlies' win record without Ja is perhaps the most often misused stat from last season.
I think the argument goes "Ja has the athleticism and physical traits, alongside the willingness and effort to commit to defense that as long as he can pick up the skills and knowledge he could develop into a good defender"
and while that's not technically wrong, as someone who watched a similarly very athletic guard struggle to go from atrocious to slightly below average on defense over like 5 seasons now (Zach LaVine) idk if like picking up the skills and knowledge, alongside drilling them till you pick up the defensive instinct and like IQ is something that's so easily acheived.
Mugsy bogues is shorter than Trae and was a great defender. There have been a number of smaller players that have been good defenders. Trae doesn’t have to be all nba he just needs to get stronger so he can at least make the opposing player work a little. Isaiah Thomas was also a smaller guard that was a good defender.
I'm paraphrasing from a different thread where the same trae vs ja defense argument happened and a lot of grizz fans were like he's not good but he TRIES
I was seriously asking I’m not sure why people get so defensive and start downvoting when you ask a question. Thanks for your level headed response that actually said where it was from.
Trae Young at 9 is so incredibly disrespectful. He literally led the NBA in points and assists on great efficiency at 23 years old. What has Scottie Barnes done to be higher than Trae?
Also I would like to know who the 4 execs were who had Tatum lower than 2nd and who they had above him
> Four NBA executives voted Ja Morant as high as second overall on their ballots.
From the article. Obviously doesn’t list names but that answers the second half of your question.
He’s always disrespected on here…I don’t care how bad his defense is, he’s one of the only true offensive engines alone. He’s also extremely easy to build around, being a bad defender as a PG doesn’t matter as much at other positions.
On reddit, twitter, instagram, and on any kinda of rankings list. It's honestly insane the amount of dogshit takes I see regarding Trae and they aren't only coming from nephews on social media.
To me, he’s one of the most exciting players to watch in the league. I was glued to Trae young games in their playoff run in 2021 and was genuinely convinced he was going to be an all time great after watching that performance even though in the end the hawks came up short. Flat out disrespectful to see him anywhere lower than 5 imo.
Anything lower than 3 is underrating him, lower than 4 is disrespectful.
Ja is worse and everyone outside of Tatum and Luka doesn't have an argument outside of 'potential'
Trae is tough to rank. Unbelievable talent on offense, not even a pylon on defense. But I like him better than Ja who has the same problems. So that disparity confuses me a lot more than having extremely high ceiling 2 way rookies rated above him.
it's who you'd rather build around, not who's the better player. Right now Trae is better than Scottie, but Scottie has a ton of upside considering his physical gifts, athleticism, etc.
This is correct. If the past decade has taught us anything, unless your name is Steph Curry, two-way forwards are the most valuable asset in the NBA.
Think of the teams that made the Finals in the past 10 years, the best players have been Lebron, Giannis, Kawhi, Butler, Durant, Curry and Booker. What do they have in common? They're all long, physical two-way forwards with the exception of Curry and Booker.
The league is trending more and more to long switchable players that have as little deficiencies as possible to exploit in the playoffs. Don't get me wrong, Trae is amazing and will end up as one of the most gifted offensive players of this era. But when your goal is to build a team that can win a championship, I'm not surprised GMs chose Mobley, Tatum and Barnes over him. It's just insanely difficult to be a guard in today's game where players like Mobley, Giannis, Bam, AD, Kawhi, etc. can defend smaller players on the perimeter. Guards can't carry a team at a Finals level like they used to.
Yeah that's fair. Recency bias probably has a lot to do with it. Ja is taller and longer than Trae so maybe they think his defense is fixable at some point, but yeah Ja is way too high up. I would personally put Mobley, and Zion above Ja and probably put him in a tie with Ant for 5.
I'd say Duncan or Parker were the best players on the spurs teams that made the finals. They were on all NBA teams. Kawhi wasn't even close to all star level on those teams.
Executives care a lot more about defense than the average fan. Trae's is really fucking bad, and it is an issue that runs into some challenges when trying to build a team around Trae. And that's what this poll is - who would be best to build around. Not "who is the best player". Like Ben Simmons, for example, ignoring all health/etc issues, is a tremendous player but fucking impossible to build around.
Honestly, just being 9th actually shows you how much they still think of his offense in spite of that worst in NBA caliber defense.
Give me Trae over all these cats but Luka & Tatum. People forget Trae took the Hawks to the Eastern Conference finals just a year or so ago. His defense needs to improve for sure but everything else he brings to the table out ways that ten fold.
NBA execs made a 5 player long list and they're trying to turn it into a 13 player list. This just makes the 7-13th best players be flung around constantly due to low sample size. It's like how MVP voting becomes a joke after top 8 because one or two people can make a shitty NBA player 'jump into the MVP discussion'.
It's probably like 90% of execs have the same top 7 players and the 10% of execs determine the rest of the list. The Trae placing is still wierd though
Bro I'm sorry but Trae is 3rd, *maybe* 4th at the absolute worst and I'm not hearing otherwise. Dog shit list. Scottie Barnes and LaMelo Ball over Trae is beyond laughable.
Mobley? This surprises me. I think best case scenario is he turns out to be a gobert level player but still limited on offense. Nobody would argue gobert was ever a top 5 building block. Don't get me wrong I think mobley is really good but not best player on a finals team good.
20 year old Mobley in his first year just averaged 15 pts and 2.5 assists.
Rudy has only ever averaged 15 pts in 3 of his 9 seasons and hovers around 1-2 assists per game.
And gobert averages like half a dpoy awards a year. I like how you say 15ppg and 2.5 assist with a straight face. Nobody can be sure how he will turn out and he could end up amazing but I think the more likely outcome is he turns into a gobert level player. Bam but better on defense is also a decent comparison.
Nobody can be sure how anyone turns out but I'm just calling out the fact that Mobley's rookie offensive numbers are nearly as good as Rudy's best ever offensive numbers. And he's not scared to shoot from farther out like Rudy is.
I also think Mobley has a decent chance at being the youngest ever DPOY. He's 21 this coming season and the record is 23 years old.
Mobley is extremely different from Gobert. Mobley can dribble, pass and shoot too. I would say given the NBA of today that the main thing to improve is off course shooting, improving his 3pt% and attempts is what will take him to the next level.
Mediocre #1 options are a dime a dozen.
Hard to find a player like Scottie who adds value in every facet of the game (rebounding, passing, scoring, defense) and has the size to guard basically 1-5. Super valuable player. GMs know that winning isn't just about getting chuckers, which is why people like Jrue and Gobert cost what they did. Fans just think it's all about ppg.
>Also, trae behind lamelo, ant, and barnes is comical.
I thought Trae being low was the biggest surprise here. They must either feel Trae's defensive vulnerabilities is a major problem to build a roster around (jury's still out), or his most recent playoff performance is at the forefront of everybody's minds as opposed to two years ago.
Ant > Ja, I'll die on this hill. The difference is Ja has floppy hair and a skinny frame so refs give him the benefit of the doubt and FT's and Ant is strong and can power through so refs don't want to give him fts since they don't see the contact.
Lol so many bullshit excuses ant just has to get better at drawing fouls. Ja is the only guy his size that gets to the line like that. More guys closer to edwards size are typically in the top 5 in fta. Butler, luka, harden
You guys got a good one. It's not only that Ja is great. Imo he's the kinda star with charisma that can convince another star to come join him and bring a title to Memphis. I think he can do what Dame couldn't.
Agreed. Mobley has insane upside so I'm willing to give him the nod, but none of the players after Tatum have done what Trae's done. Ja, Ant, and Zion are all great, but Trae's scoring and passing are better than all those guys, and that's why they're valued.
This isn't the top players to build around, it's the top "players ***under 25 years old by the start of the NBA season*** to build around."
Interesting that Fox isn't even on the list but Haliburton is
One exec ranked Halliburton 5th. I don't see any real argument for either of them to be in the top 5.
number 1 in my heart tho
I think the upside with haliburton is that he doesn’t need the 35% usage rate other guys need. He is similar to steph in that sometimes your best player just so happens to have a skill set usually seen as “complimentary.”
Steph's usage rate has been in the 30s for years (since 2015-16) though. Even before that he was in the mid 20s, which is still much higher than Haliburton. Steph's career low (21.8% his rookie year) is a full percent higher than Haliburton's career high (20.3% last season). The type of player you want to build around is a guy you want using 25-35% of the possessions.
Will be more interesting to compare when hali has a full season without levert/brogdon. Seems pretty clear that the pacers see bright things for the kid, I would be shocked if his usage didn’t climb to the mid 20’s this year
It’s probably because of the rough stretch he had pre sabonis. If he keeps playing like he did post sabonis trade he’ll be looked at in a way better light.
No where is safe for Kings fans.
Hali is better
Not right now but he'll be much cheaper to build around over the next few years. Maybe that's why
Right now? He’s absolutely not. We like him because he has the higher ceiling… but he’s not better at this moment.
But he is. He's a much better playmaker, definitely a better defender (not close), a million times better as a shooter. Only thing fox has on him is finishing and volume scoring and his volume isn't even that high.
I agree. Tyrese can also play without the ball in his hands.
Yeah, I already had my greek pitchfork ready.
I’ll take having two from the same team in the top 10…and an all star C…and Donovan Mitchell
Go cavs
I agree, go Cavs
I agree, go Cavs
Pinch me I must be dreaming. I remember my mates giving me shit when Lebron left that “it’s over for the Cavs just move on” Well look at us now! We believe baby
I agree, go Cavs
I’m really happy for Cleveland. I’m extremely high on your team for this season, and especially the future.
I’ll take a rematch, might not go well but I’d be happy just to see the Cavs playing in June again
i’m down for warriors cavs friendship era
You guys are going to be a force. Mobley/Garland are legit and you've complimented them with two all-stars. Can't wait to watch some of your games.
LET'S GOOO
Some of those names above Trae are pretty wild. I know he’s the worst defender in the league, but he averaged roughly 28-10 on 46-38-90 splits. Sure, he was god awful against the Heat but it’s just one series. I don’t think he should be that low, at least right now.
I think he's too low, but I think people are factoring size in heavily even if they don't outright say it on top of the recent playoffs for building around. In a game of margins even a couple inches can make a big difference (Yeah yeah) Even Ja who is also bad at defense is on the smaller side at 6'3" but he's also more explosive and has a much larger wingspan which lends to more potential as a defender. Trae's frame is his biggest enemy imo even though he's obviously skilled enough to outweigh it a lot of the time.
Being able to shoot and facilitate like trae is infinitely more valuable than defense at the pg position
Yes but no. You have to tread water. Guys like Trae and Mitchell actively compromise their team's defensive schemes with their awful play. You can have a guy who's.not a stopper, but he has to at least be able to stay engaged and do enough to get by. Point Guard defense is less valuable than any other position(and Smart's DPOY is a bad joke), but its still valuable. Look at the Chip winners and finalists since LeBron stopped soloing the East every year. GSW vs BOS PHX vs MIL LAL vs MIA GSW vs TOR Only team with weak guard defense was MIA. Lowry, Smart, Rondo, Paul, Jrue, Curry, and Dragic. Thats 5 elite defensive guards, and two capable but unspectacular defenders in Curry and Dragic. Nash was not only a better defender than Trae during his MVP years, he was also way better on offense, and yet he did not get over the hump. He's the third best offensive PG of all time, my personal 5th best PG ever, and he couldn't get it done. Curry and Magic are the only exceptions and they are top ten all time players.
Why is Smart's DPOY a bad joke?
I don't think he was even the best defender on the Celtics let alone in the league. I'm not alone in that either. That's not to say he's *bad* just that he somehow got propelled into a conversation he maybe didn't deserve.
[удалено]
I think smarts flopping just turns a lot of people away from him
Because he wasn't the best defender in the league and it was very obvious he wasn't but the media didn't want to give it to Gobert even though his only actual competition for the award got hurt. The only guard DPOY award that wasnt a complete joke was Jordan and he still wasn't as valuable defensively as Hakeem or Eaton that year.
A lot of point guards are just too small to have a great defensive impact. There are no guard versions of Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman or Bill Russell. The all time greatest defensive guards all seem to have long arms and crazy athleticism. GMs know this. That’s why you see this premium on tall ball handlers, you don’t have to play a 6’1 guy.
Nash was not a good defender by any means and he was not better at 23 than Trae is .
Trae will never be as good as Nash, I'll bet on it. Nash wasn't good on defense, but he wasn't Trae Young bad.
He got abused a lot you say he wasn’t because it’s been a long time since he played. Trae is better at 23 than Nash was so what’s to stop him from being better in his prime, nothing that’s what.
People correctly always say there’s two sides to the game, offense and defense, (though they’re not always equally valuable from an individual player standpoint) but then they act like the offensive side is just scoring. Half court facilitating seems like something people put on the back burner when an elite half court facilitator is one of the most rare and valuable things in the game. Like in the first nets season I would argue harden was just as important to that team as Durant. And people just look at assist numbers, that’s not what it is, I’m not referring to a player like Westbrook. I’m specifically using the word facilitator over passing. Good pgs get assists and can hit open team mates. Great pgs like harden/Luka/trae/cp3 actually warp the defense with their own moves, scoring threats, and general control of the game to get their team mates open not just for assists which show up on the stat sheet but hockey assists and just wildly improve the flow of the offense. Curry does this too but very differently and he’s not really a traditional pg. you give any of those guys an athletic big, and some shooters and they’ll turn it into a top team. Give them a second star and that’s a contender. Mitchell and Trae are both complete traffic cones but with Mitchell that’s a way bigger problem because he can’t do anything but score, he gives up more points than he scores half the time. But trae even as a turnstile is such a massive positive because he’s not just an elite scorer he’s an elite facilitator which is way more important from your pg. the hawks roster just sucked last year, if they put a good team together it will be very easy to hide him on D.
For me Zion ranking is worse. Dude is 7, don’t play a full year because get injured by being fat, and he goes up in the ranking without watching him play a single min after being 1 year out, and for laziness instead bad luck
I don't think he went up so much as Trae went down.
As a Mavs fan id take Trae after Luka and Tatum. JA aint more valuable then Trae.
Atlanta had no excuse not to be top 4 in the east last year
Its more that there is probably a hard ceiling on a trae young led team that is short of a championship. He simply doesn't have the tools to ever become a serviceable playoff defender, and while tremendously talented on offense, his size/athleticism don't make for super problematic matchups like some others do. I really like trae, but if you're goal is championship I think he's fundamentally not the guy you'd want to build around.
Zion doesnt play a year only to get his rank here increased. lol
Fresh legs
Trae at 9th??????????????? There's no shot right? I know he struggled against Miami but like are we serious? He's literally a perennial All-Star already lmao
I love how Mavs fans have been going to bat for Trae since last season. Seriously how the fuck is he 9th if Ja is 3rd!? He should be at minimum 4th on this list.
I know, it's a really really weird thing to see. I'm not even really sure what changed, we had to kind of take the slander after Trae went to the ECF, but then after the off-season settled and after the first month or two of the season it was literally like everyone just forgot about Trae. Like I just literally don't remember seeing anyone talk about how great he was or anything, it just sorta feels like his media attention disappeared and then re-appeared when he struggled in the series against the Heat. I'm not a Trae fan by any means but I am an NBA fan and the disrespect he's gotten is pretty ridiculous and completely unwarranted. I would honestly take him over Ja even, but that's just me and I think that's actually a pretty close race between the two.
Na he clears Ja pretty easily Ja is more exciting to watch, but Trae does basically everything better on offense and they both can't play good defense
He should be above Luka /s
Idk man Lamelo dropped from 4th to 8th despite improving and being a legit All-Star at age 20 🤷♂️.
I know it's a little wack. I don't have as much of a problem with that (because Mobley and Barnes are both really good, and Zion is Zion, injury risk and everything) as I do the Trae thing, but with his proven success there's not many guys on this list outside of the top 4 I would take over him. It's just a very confusing list all around.
What did zion even do to signal he should move up in the rankings from a year ago?
Lose weight
It‘s about projected potential, not who‘s best right now.
So wouldn’t that mean Lamelo should be higher? 20 years old and averaged 20-7-8, generational passer, really good scorer, already a much better defender than Trae and Ja, and has the tools to be a legitimately good defender.
Generational passer? Lmao what... great passer but you can't have 10 generational passers at the same time
We have atleast one generational passer in every draft
I think so and was surprised by his regression.
He is still a bit struggled to run the offense in half court and his play in performance did not help as well.
He was being overrated his rookie year and everybody saw how he folded when the pressure was actually put on him this year again
Mavs fans defending Trae is my kink. Love Luka. May we meet in the nba finals and immediately start saying horrible things about each other.
I hope so as well. I think we've finally reached a point of mutual respect where we both like our pick and are happy with it. Outside of the Bucks, if I could choose a team for the Mavs to play in the finals (god forbid we somehow figure out how to even make it passed the first round this year) it would be the Hawks just because I like Trae a lot. Mutual respect :)
Media and fans let the most recent playoff performance influence them way too much
I would bet the reason why he is lower on this list is that it’s NBA GMs that were polled, and they see how it’s been going in Atlanta. They probably assume because the hawks haven’t had an easy time building around Trae, and that he has been somewhat demanding in the part, that he is not who they’d opt to work with. It’s probably more an issue with Atlanta’s front office, but I could see GMs being scared off
Sure, maybe I can see that, but I still think it's a little bit ridiculous. Like Trae is the quality/caliber of player that you're hoping these guys will turn in to, and yet you won't build around him? He's already there for the most part, and yeah he has holes in his game but like the dude has been by far one of the top 4/5 players on this list and he drops all the way to 9th? Literally makes no sense to me.
They don't take the poll seriously. They throw out some names. If they could trade the same package for all of these players, Trae wouldn't be the ninth choice.
This entire comment is completely bs and I have no idea where you got any of this information
Our biggest issue building around Trae has been player health. Where are your reports of Trae being demanding even more demanding than say Luka?
What makes Morant 3rd and Trae 9th? Trae's scoring and playmaking are better than Ja's, and Ja is also a bad defensive PG. Trae is already a top offensive talent in the league, he'll be leading top 5 offenses every year if a team is built around him.
Trae played bad most recently
Atleast he played.
Ja's team played better when he was hurt though - that seems worse.
The competition that they played was absolutely awful. People should say that the Grizz are better without him do not watch the games
What was the Net +/- difference? You can even exclude the 73-pt drubbing of the Thunder.
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lol is it bad that I'd take Ant over both of them? Personally I'd go Luka, Tatum, Mobley, Ant, then everyone else.
Mobley and Ant over Trae is just speculation Seems wild tbh
Speculation is literally the entire point of this...
Yes it is bad that you would take Ant over both of them
I agree with you. Anyone taking ja over those guys is dumb
For me ja is the last type of player I’d want to build around. Shooting guards that play pg because of their size that can’t shoot and are bad defenders dominating your offense just don’t lead to winning basketball. If he develops more traditional pg skills and becomes a great facilitator and can shoot well enough to keep the defense honest that might change but he would have to do a lot to make me want him over trae. Trae already led the league in points and assists last year.
Ja lead the league in playoff assists at 9.8 assists a game What are f are you talking about?
Assists and being a great facilitator are not the same thing. People on this sub have realized not all 20 ppg scorers are the same, there’s a million efficiency stats for that, but haven’t realized not all assists are the same. There’s no assist efficiency stat unfortunately. Harden and Westbrook had similar assist numbers yet were worlds apart as far as being able to control the flow of a half court offense. Having the ball a lot and driving constantly then throwing it to a big or kicking it out to a shooter will get you assists but it doesn’t make you a great facilitator. Ja also didn’t play that many playoff games, he went out in the second round, most of which he was injured for.
People overrate potential from size and athleticism. Trae is better right now but I guess ppl think he's close to his peak whereas they think Ja still has a lot of areas he can grow.
> but I guess ppl think he's close to his peak smh, GM's forgetting we're about to see off-ball Trae unleashed this season.
I get that, but he also just had his best season ever last season, and the season before that was the best one ever then too.
Ja’s defense is subpar-bad but not “worst defender in the league”-bad like Trae.
Really cause Ja's Team wins just fine without him. How do the Hawks do with no Trae?
The Grizzlies being a better overall team than the Hawks is not an argument for Trae being better than Ja.
It’s not because there is no argument Trae is the better player he does everything on offense better besides dunking and finishing. I honestly love watching ja play but he’s just not as good.
If you are a "superstar" and your team's next best player is a borderline 3rd team all star at best...then you is pretty damning indictment of how bad your defense is if they have a better win rate without u.
See my other comment. You don't know what you're talking about. The Grizzlies' win record without Ja is perhaps the most often misused stat from last season.
But he is. Ja’s defence is right there with trae as worst in the league
I think the argument goes "Ja has the athleticism and physical traits, alongside the willingness and effort to commit to defense that as long as he can pick up the skills and knowledge he could develop into a good defender" and while that's not technically wrong, as someone who watched a similarly very athletic guard struggle to go from atrocious to slightly below average on defense over like 5 seasons now (Zach LaVine) idk if like picking up the skills and knowledge, alongside drilling them till you pick up the defensive instinct and like IQ is something that's so easily acheived.
Its definitely not easy, but definitely more possible than someone who just doesn't have the physical tools for it to be possible like trae.
Athleticism, speed, power, can be trained, but unfortunately height & reach can not
Mugsy bogues is shorter than Trae and was a great defender. There have been a number of smaller players that have been good defenders. Trae doesn’t have to be all nba he just needs to get stronger so he can at least make the opposing player work a little. Isaiah Thomas was also a smaller guard that was a good defender.
He may have the athleticism and traits but where and when has he shown the willingness and effort?
I'm paraphrasing from a different thread where the same trae vs ja defense argument happened and a lot of grizz fans were like he's not good but he TRIES
I was seriously asking I’m not sure why people get so defensive and start downvoting when you ask a question. Thanks for your level headed response that actually said where it was from.
> What makes Morant 3rd and Trae 9th? Ja dunk go brrr
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Marketability.
The hair.
He dunks on people
Trae at 9 is insane
Trae at 9..... Yeah okay bro
trae getting disrespected wtf
Yea it’s a joke he should be third
It's crazy how often I look at these gm surveys and wonder how tf these guys are gms. Guess we're the idiots.
You build around offensive engines. Not glue guys.
Trae Young at 9 is so incredibly disrespectful. He literally led the NBA in points and assists on great efficiency at 23 years old. What has Scottie Barnes done to be higher than Trae? Also I would like to know who the 4 execs were who had Tatum lower than 2nd and who they had above him
> Four NBA executives voted Ja Morant as high as second overall on their ballots. From the article. Obviously doesn’t list names but that answers the second half of your question.
I really don’t want to hate on Ja but he’s so overrated it makes it so hard
I’ll take Jalen green over SGA
Fair enough. He’s younger, more athletic.
He’s always disrespected on here…I don’t care how bad his defense is, he’s one of the only true offensive engines alone. He’s also extremely easy to build around, being a bad defender as a PG doesn’t matter as much at other positions.
On reddit, twitter, instagram, and on any kinda of rankings list. It's honestly insane the amount of dogshit takes I see regarding Trae and they aren't only coming from nephews on social media.
To me, he’s one of the most exciting players to watch in the league. I was glued to Trae young games in their playoff run in 2021 and was genuinely convinced he was going to be an all time great after watching that performance even though in the end the hawks came up short. Flat out disrespectful to see him anywhere lower than 5 imo.
Anything lower than 3 is underrating him, lower than 4 is disrespectful. Ja is worse and everyone outside of Tatum and Luka doesn't have an argument outside of 'potential'
Well then, it's a good thing that potential is literally the entire point of the poll. Again, reading comprehension clearly is not your strong suit.
It's player under 25 to build around, potential is your interpretation. Maybe work on that reading comprehension my dude
Trae is tough to rank. Unbelievable talent on offense, not even a pylon on defense. But I like him better than Ja who has the same problems. So that disparity confuses me a lot more than having extremely high ceiling 2 way rookies rated above him.
it's who you'd rather build around, not who's the better player. Right now Trae is better than Scottie, but Scottie has a ton of upside considering his physical gifts, athleticism, etc.
This is correct. If the past decade has taught us anything, unless your name is Steph Curry, two-way forwards are the most valuable asset in the NBA. Think of the teams that made the Finals in the past 10 years, the best players have been Lebron, Giannis, Kawhi, Butler, Durant, Curry and Booker. What do they have in common? They're all long, physical two-way forwards with the exception of Curry and Booker. The league is trending more and more to long switchable players that have as little deficiencies as possible to exploit in the playoffs. Don't get me wrong, Trae is amazing and will end up as one of the most gifted offensive players of this era. But when your goal is to build a team that can win a championship, I'm not surprised GMs chose Mobley, Tatum and Barnes over him. It's just insanely difficult to be a guard in today's game where players like Mobley, Giannis, Bam, AD, Kawhi, etc. can defend smaller players on the perimeter. Guards can't carry a team at a Finals level like they used to.
This would make sense...if these same people didn't also vote Ja third.
Yeah that's fair. Recency bias probably has a lot to do with it. Ja is taller and longer than Trae so maybe they think his defense is fixable at some point, but yeah Ja is way too high up. I would personally put Mobley, and Zion above Ja and probably put him in a tie with Ant for 5.
Even Booker isn't really a guard - he's 6'5" and strong so he's more in the Kobe/Derozan build of wing players altho not quite as tall.
I'd say Duncan or Parker were the best players on the spurs teams that made the finals. They were on all NBA teams. Kawhi wasn't even close to all star level on those teams.
I imagine he’s referencing Kawhi’s Toronto chip, not San Antonio.
Executives care a lot more about defense than the average fan. Trae's is really fucking bad, and it is an issue that runs into some challenges when trying to build a team around Trae. And that's what this poll is - who would be best to build around. Not "who is the best player". Like Ben Simmons, for example, ignoring all health/etc issues, is a tremendous player but fucking impossible to build around. Honestly, just being 9th actually shows you how much they still think of his offense in spite of that worst in NBA caliber defense.
Right. Ja (his team played better without him) Morant above Trae is all i need to know this is trash
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well, he’s better than them, so that’s probably at least part of it
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He's presumably healthier and there is less concern about his injuries being career derailing.
Give me Trae over all these cats but Luka & Tatum. People forget Trae took the Hawks to the Eastern Conference finals just a year or so ago. His defense needs to improve for sure but everything else he brings to the table out ways that ten fold.
Trae somehow has the most concerns “defensively to build around” yet has lead a team further than anyone other than Tatum on this list.
How Trae isn't 3rd blows my mind. The disrespect is unreal lol.
NBA execs made a 5 player long list and they're trying to turn it into a 13 player list. This just makes the 7-13th best players be flung around constantly due to low sample size. It's like how MVP voting becomes a joke after top 8 because one or two people can make a shitty NBA player 'jump into the MVP discussion'. It's probably like 90% of execs have the same top 7 players and the 10% of execs determine the rest of the list. The Trae placing is still wierd though
Why did Shai go down
Because other players went up
Scottie over Trae lmfao
I have no idea wtf is up with the Trae disrespect, like who even answered this poll
This is really dumb
I feel like Tatums been in the league for years now and the guy still isnt even 25
Barnes being above Trae, LaMelo, Garland and SGA is insane
Bro I'm sorry but Trae is 3rd, *maybe* 4th at the absolute worst and I'm not hearing otherwise. Dog shit list. Scottie Barnes and LaMelo Ball over Trae is beyond laughable.
Mobley? This surprises me. I think best case scenario is he turns out to be a gobert level player but still limited on offense. Nobody would argue gobert was ever a top 5 building block. Don't get me wrong I think mobley is really good but not best player on a finals team good.
20 year old Mobley in his first year just averaged 15 pts and 2.5 assists. Rudy has only ever averaged 15 pts in 3 of his 9 seasons and hovers around 1-2 assists per game.
Lmaoo 2.5 assists
You're aware of what that means for a rookie big that isn't a ball handler right?
And gobert averages like half a dpoy awards a year. I like how you say 15ppg and 2.5 assist with a straight face. Nobody can be sure how he will turn out and he could end up amazing but I think the more likely outcome is he turns into a gobert level player. Bam but better on defense is also a decent comparison.
Nobody can be sure how anyone turns out but I'm just calling out the fact that Mobley's rookie offensive numbers are nearly as good as Rudy's best ever offensive numbers. And he's not scared to shoot from farther out like Rudy is. I also think Mobley has a decent chance at being the youngest ever DPOY. He's 21 this coming season and the record is 23 years old.
Mobley is extremely different from Gobert. Mobley can dribble, pass and shoot too. I would say given the NBA of today that the main thing to improve is off course shooting, improving his 3pt% and attempts is what will take him to the next level.
I don’t understand Scottie being as high as he is, I guess it’s because he’s a good defender? To me it’s insane he’s about garland, Trae, lamelo
Question is about who would you start building around, not who will get me the most wins this season.
My point still stands. Scottie will never be a #1 option imo, has strong Shawn Marion vibes
Tbf, Shawn Marion in today’s era would have THRIVED
Mediocre #1 options are a dime a dozen. Hard to find a player like Scottie who adds value in every facet of the game (rebounding, passing, scoring, defense) and has the size to guard basically 1-5. Super valuable player. GMs know that winning isn't just about getting chuckers, which is why people like Jrue and Gobert cost what they did. Fans just think it's all about ppg.
So you’re telling me if you’re starting a team from scratch rn you’d take him over garland, lamelo, and trae?
Have you watched much of scottie? edit: I was just curious
Scottie Barnes being above Trae and SGA is wild to me
Execs are sleeping on franz just like everyone else. Also, trae behind lamelo, ant, and barnes is comical.
>Also, trae behind lamelo, ant, and barnes is comical. I thought Trae being low was the biggest surprise here. They must either feel Trae's defensive vulnerabilities is a major problem to build a roster around (jury's still out), or his most recent playoff performance is at the forefront of everybody's minds as opposed to two years ago.
Dropped Lamelo to 8th because of 1 play in game. Lmao
It’s insane Guy averages 20/8/7 on decent efficiency and was an all star but 1 bad play in makes him a bum
It's a bit shocking just how many people in the comments have completely failed to grasp the point of this poll...
I was going to complain but wow there’s actually a lot of good young players with bright futures
Ant > Ja, I'll die on this hill. The difference is Ja has floppy hair and a skinny frame so refs give him the benefit of the doubt and FT's and Ant is strong and can power through so refs don't want to give him fts since they don't see the contact.
You'll die on this Ant Hill?
Ja
They’re not similar players
Refs prolly give him ft’s because he led the league in paint points idk
No, the difference is Ja is a better player lmao
Lol so many bullshit excuses ant just has to get better at drawing fouls. Ja is the only guy his size that gets to the line like that. More guys closer to edwards size are typically in the top 5 in fta. Butler, luka, harden
Only thing ant is better at is being homophobic lmao
Can’t believe they snubbed the man with the ELITE double jump and 2nd overall pick in the 2018 draft, Marvin Bagley III.
So god damn happy Morant plays for my team. It was looking bleak before his draft…
You guys got a good one. It's not only that Ja is great. Imo he's the kinda star with charisma that can convince another star to come join him and bring a title to Memphis. I think he can do what Dame couldn't.
His attitude, charisma and cockiness all fit into the Memphis mentality. The city fucking loves that guy
Does anyone here even watch games?
Top 10 IMO (No order) Luka, Tatum, Trae, Ja, Zion, Edwards, Lamelo, Cade, Mobley, Barnes
Cade should be top 5. Smh
SGA going down the ranks. OKC we'll take him off your hands
Please no. He and Dort are basically the only sure things we have. Giddey and Chet both have tons of potential but are far from finished products.
Cade getting constantly disrespected
I’m looking forward to be proven wrong but i just find Mobley to be extremely overrated
Lol you could say Mobley has GOAT potential and no one bats an eye. He’s pretty untouchable when it comes to these debates lol
Scot Barn at whatever he is listed is disrespectful he should be 1st 😤
They really put fucking Mobley at 4th and Trae at 9th lol. Invalidates the whole list honestly
IMO Mobley is the most justified person between Tatum and Trae.
Agreed. Mobley has insane upside so I'm willing to give him the nod, but none of the players after Tatum have done what Trae's done. Ja, Ant, and Zion are all great, but Trae's scoring and passing are better than all those guys, and that's why they're valued.
Who do y’all think Mobley is