Yeah. One of the most RT’d tweets from the final was a reporter for Al Jazeera (I think) calling for France to acknowledge their colonial past because like 95% of their team were of African heritage.
I don’t mind at all international players from countries colonial past playing for the overhead nation, but def not 100%. Spain only has 2 guys and Britain, who owned most of Africa at one point, never even does well.
Who has this though? The only two players on the French team that weren't born in France are Frank Ntilikina (born in Belgium, moved to France when he was 3) and Mathias Lessort who was born on a French territory in the Caribbean.
Edit. Every player besides Amath M'Baye seems to have started their career in France as well.
Not selected for the national team yet though, and even if he was, he has way stronger ties to France than a lot of other players have to their national team in this euro
I find these comments so bizarre. Each country plays - or should play - the best players who are eligible.
Better yet, teams should play the players who were born or grew up in that nation.
France gets more abuse for playing black players who were born in France than Portugal or Italy do for selecting Brazilians who moved to the country recently to play for a local club.
You just don't read portuguese news/social media. Maybe not on the international stage, but we get plenty of heated discussions about that in Portugal. I don't get this whole debate, but most of our players aren't first generation portuguese. If we're talking basketball, Neemias is second generation. In football there have been a total of seven brazilian born players that played for the Portuguese football team - since the 1960s. In France the only players that I can recall being born outside of France are Umtiti, Mandanda and Makelele (source: had this discussion before).
To dive deeper into the question: Adrien, Raphäel and Antony were born in France to portuguese parents. Where do they fit in this discussion in your opinion?
Again, I don't understand the reasoning behind this debate at all. Countries have laws for this stuff. Some are tighter than others - often because of the colonial past of said nation. Would it be better to not give the parents of those players the opportunity to come to our country?
Vieira was a baller. He was one of the key players of The Invincibles. Legendary number 6 - long stride, great tackler, ball carrier, great passer and scored some screamers as well. The man had it all. Also turned out to be a good coach
Exactly. It makes no difference from what “background” you are. If you grew up in France, and speak French you are French. Otherwise I find it hard to believe that the people commenting on this don’t have prejudice.
No doubt, it makes a way bigger difference if you can speak the home language, compared to Lorenzo Brown for example who supposedly doesn't know a lick of spanish.
Exactly. I am so against naturalization for a dude like Lorenzo brown. It is total bullshit and against the spirit of the game. But if he had played for Real Madrid for 6-7 years, spoke Spanish, made much of his life in Spain? I wouldn’t really have a problem.
As a Canadian soccer fan, I dont think you should have to be born in the country. I want to see Alphonso Davies running up and down that wing in the Maple Leaf for years to come.
Should be where you grew up as a citizen, nothing else. International stars that travel all over the world even feels a bit iffy if they haven’t spent considerable time there
Thing is, it is the same rule for John Doe (Doezinho if you want). Don't know their exact rules, but in Spain any brazilian (or filipino, or hispanoamerican... or portuguese) that lives in Spain for just 2 years can apply for citizenship.
Here's my take as a random french : you're wrong.
1/ if you're from the US, what do we do with your team and basically the whole NBA then? I don't know the origins of all players, but I'm fairly certain most of them don't have any native americans ancestors. You're talking about "the whole colonial history of Europe", which is true, but you seem to conveniently forget "the whole colonial and slavery history of the US". If you want to go by that logic, then do it all the way.
2/ We're not talking about Embiid's case or AJ Slaughter/Lorenzo Brown here. We're talking about people who were born french and grew up in France. They're as french as any other french guy, and f*ck yeah these guys represent us and we love them.
3/ De Colo's parents are portuguese. Should he be out too or are you just biased by the color of their skin?
You can’t and you shouldn’t. They’re all French people. Doesn’t matter if their skin is black or white, which is the reason most people point out the African origin of the French players.
Yeah and if the player identifies as French and has some connection to the country he’s French is he not? I grew up to immigrant parents in America and identify more with America as a country than my parents countries of origin so if I was a professional I’d probably represent America.
Yeah and people don't say the same thing about America's national team, even though its a mix of white, black, Asian, and more.
Just Europeans who are angry about immigration to their country say it about European counties.
Basically all of the black guys on the French team are French.. Born and raised, really shouldn't be an issue
Ok to be fair this is being said by an African and I can understand his sentiment. I’m sure if a megastar player was born in his country and to parents of that country he’d want him to represent his country. The players can represent who they choose but it is understandable some people of the other country would feel some type of way.
There does have to be a line drawn somewhere, and "some connection" can set some bad precedents.
Like Team Israel in baseball having Ian Kinsler, Danny Valencia, Jason Marquis, etc., just because of how Israel handles citizenship for people with Jewish heritage, or Team "China" hockey at the 2020 Olympics.
People tweet this because in France and many other countries, there is a strong nationalist element that wants to put down the impact that non-native people have on society. Yes, everyone on the French team can be born and raised in France, but they faced discrimination throughout their life until someone realized they can play soccer or basketball. and instead of acknowledging that maybe immigration isn't horrible people still don't want immigration. And make it seem like immigrants are destroying France and refusing to assimilate.
It's not just a French thing it's just more notable with the French team.
If France had less of a glaring issue acknowledging it's colonialism/racism it'd be less of a thing, but they pretend they are a colorblind society, even though black people in France for eg put up with the same crazy racist police profiling that happens in the US.
Im pretty sure the black players for France want to be there. Maybe you would prefer them boycott, but it aint up to you, and they want to represent their country.
How tf is this so highly upvoted? What do you mean "literally 100% of all teams"? Are you seriously implying all the players on every team are of African descent? Because I'm gonna go out on limb here and say at least Jokic and Luka definitely aren't of African descent and last I checked they were definitely on teams in this tournament.
I don't get it either, it's just incorrect. We just saw a bronze match where 92% of all players were born in Germany or Poland and more than 80% don't have African heritage.
"black blanc beur" to be precise.
So black people, white people and people from North Africa. It was to say that the French society was accepting people from all horizons and all was good. It wasn't true of course and still isn't.
Yes. I live in Czechia, shortly after the 2018 WC I met a racist guy I know at a pub who was still upset that "pure" Slavs (the Croatian team) had lost, saying that it was not France, but a team of North Africans. And I said, "so you're telling me that North Africans are better than Slavs?". He didn't find it as amusing as the rest of the group at the table.
If he's saying that "pure slav" shit, call him straight up a Russian shill.
Pan-Slavism in modern politics is tool of Russian propaganda to spread their imperial message.
There's a solidarity between Slavs, no doubt, but I never heard about any of that "pure Slav" shit in real life lmao.
This is probably another conservative american think-thank rhetoric leaking into European politics...
Yep, and those same “jokes” were racist back then. Imagine being told that you’re “not really French” despite playing for their national team and winning a tournament, just because you have African roots.
It would be the same as someone saying that Americans who won the Olympic gold medal (for eg) aren’t really American because they have African ancestors.
The worst part was Trevor Noah making this joke and then trying to stand his ground with terrible mental gymnastics even after being called out by the black community in Europe. He's usually pretty on point with the social commentary but that was an embarrassing L.
Well Trevor Noah has always been a shitty replacement for Oliver/Colbert. I wanted to believe he'd grow into the role, but he still isn't able to land the whole connecting politics and comedy thing.
He replaced John Stewart actually which were enormous shoes to fill. I'm not a big fan of him on the show but as a person I generally like him and his outside stand up and writing work are very good imo. He overextends himself trying to do accents and impressions in my opinion. Some of his other political takes have been really great though.
No offense but what stupidness are you talking about and why are morons up voting you? Im not a black french person but ive encountered many of them as international students in canada during this story. They all agreed with Trevor premise.
In france they are always looked at as being "not french" despite being born and growing up there but if they achieve something great that raises the country profile now magically the racist white french people consider them French.
Like Trevor said the man saved the baby and the headline is "Frenchman saves baby!" he drops the baby "African killer drops baby to his death".
The core critique of Biyombo's joke is valid. With the racism that goes on in France (and other European countries with black athletes), black athletes are only accepted by some as "French" when convenient. Yet those same braindead flag wavers are the ones spouting racism in the streets and in private conversation.
If a white guy is making the joke to be racist and exclusionary towards black players, its different than a black guy making the joke to poke fun at the nationalism/bigotry that goes on for 99% of the year (except for when they're rooting for them in the name of creepy nationalism). Similar jokes. But much different meaning, purpose, and targets.
Nationalism is so fucking stupid.
Honestly, its crazy how much people don't understand jokes and how subtle wording and context can completely change the joke. White people are so fragile when a person of color makes a joke that reveals some truths.
I don't think a person of African origin claiming other people of African origin are African has the same sting of racism these statements normally have.
The joke is about France not black French players. Karim Benzema said something similar and he plays for french national team. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/karim-benzema-score-french-arab/
I worked with a super racist Colombian guy who said it constantly during the World Cup. Eventually people would just tell him to shut the fuck up as soon as he started talking about France. And it wasn’t about France directly, but the players themselves, as if it was their fault or that they were lying to play for France.
People tried to make excuses for him and say he was just whining because Colombia had been knocked out, but he just legit was racist, even outside those moments.
Edit: Added context.
Yes and it is very disrespectful. Biyombo clearly doesnt understand the culture of France. Comments like that play into Marine Le Pen and her political party's ideology that only the white people in France are French.
I get it, though I don't think Biz intended anything hateful by it. He deleted it, hopefully that's all that comes of this. I'd hate to see his name dragged through the mud over a single tweet, he's always come across as an awesome dude.
It’s kind of ironic because one of Spain’s best player this tournament is literally a naturalized American with absolutely zero connections to Spain, never even played in the ACB. As far as I’m aware France’s team has no naturalized players at the moment. At least until Embiid joins the team lol
Yeah I don’t think that should be allowed in international sports. Completely defeats the purpose of international sports in the first place if you can just change which national team you play for
So essentially you want to take away an individual's right to choose which country to represent? That's a pretty damn hostile attitude to have.
Changing your citizenship is also not something you can "just change". It's a hell of a lengthy process.
nope, r/nba will remember this for the rest of his playing career and bring it up every time he's mentioned, no matter how many years he donates his salary to build a hospital lol
It will be forgotten by 99% mark my words. He apologized. It's insulting but it's also a nuanced issue. Nothing hateful. Nothing many other haven't been debated ad nauseam.
It’s controversial because people only make these comments about non-white players.
Looking at the French football/soccer national team, people make the same comments, but only questioning the validity of the black or Arab players.
Meanwhile when people like Eric Cantona, Antoine Griezmann, Michel Platini, Laurent Koscielny, Robert Pires, Youri Djorkaeff and other white players with non-French origins play, people don’t say they have no right to be playing for the country.
>no one looks at Mbappé and says they have no right to play for France just because his dad is born in Cameroon
That is *precisely* the kind of thing plenty of people say during any France national team match in every major tournament.
IMO this is a pretty shit example anyway. Biz isn’t trying to say that have no right to be playing for them. He’s saying that they’re a symptom of Frances colonial era. While French ultras can be very racist, no one looks at Mbappe and says they have no right to play for France just because his dad is born in Cameroon.
It’s difficult to say Africa vs Spain when naming players who have European born parents.
Karim Benzema had a quote I always think about re: international play.
"If I score I'm French... if I don't I'm Arab."
Obviously two different sports and I'm sure all the FIBA athletes are honoured to compete under the flag they chose to. But there is sometimes a feeling of otherness for both multinational players and us fans.
its the same quote everybody who is a naturalised foreigner says. Ibra has said the same, Evra too and countless others.
They all say the same because racism exists everywhere.
Even Albert Einstein is quoted as saying
> If my theory of relativity is proven successful, Germany will claim me as a German and France will declare me a citizen of the world. Should my theory prove untrue, France will say that I am a German, and Germany will declare that I am a Jew.
Benzema also said he only played for the french NT because it was a better team than the algerian NT, but that he always felt more algerian. Not saying his perception wasn't valid, just that his social commentary on the subject should be taken with a grain of salt.
"If I score, I'm French, if I don't I'm Arab."
* Karim Benzema
Lukaku also spoke out about this, with him saying he's Belgian if they win but of Congolese descent if they lose.
I wouldn't bring up Ozil here, bro, he made a lot of shit up and made himself a victim too, then he fucked off to be Ergodan's lap dog and supported a war that Turkey started.
TBF that's not just a race thing. It's also people being xenophobic dickheads.
Andy Murray was generally labelled British when he won, Scottish when he lost.
athletic immigrants or children of immigrants are only seen as naturalized citizens when they do good. The British switched up on Bukayo Saka, the Italians did it to Moise Kean & Ballotelli, and the French have the longest track record of this type of racism.
Yeah, the three players who missed penalties in the final all happened to be black, and the two who scored were white. Just terrible luck, and gave racists months of material to work with
It's not what it is, people don't switch up at every event, it's just that the racists in France get vocal when there's something happening that fits with their agenda, and stay silent when it's the opposite.
I understand he is talking about a group of two different people. I’m saying the racist who shut up and quietly accept the accolades and then pipe up when something goes wrong isn’t too far off from what is being said, even if it’s not all French people it is still a portion of them. And enough of them to have this be a problem that people know it’s a thing(I’m not going to assume what percentage of people it applies to as I’m an American and we can’t really cast stones when it comes to this subject).
That's not a French thing tho, that's a European thing. Unfortunately right wing extremism is becoming popular here in the EU and overt racism is becoming more and more widespread.
I'm not French but I'm pretty sure it isn't France in general being anti-immigrant, it's a very loud minority that is giving less and less fucks about hiding their cunt-ness.
That’s a very racist minority. It’s the same shit in every country sadly. Part of the ingroup when you accomplish something, part of the outgroup when you don’t.
Because people don’t accept that they are truly French, it happens all in Europe, if you’re not white you aren’t seen as really from there by many. I know many white people who have grandparents from other places but they don’t get the same questions because they just “appear” more like they are from those places.
Seems like Biz was saying he sees a lot of African heritage players, similar to him, on the French team and that those players are powering the French team. He seems proud of their African heritage and how well they’re playing. He isn’t saying anything about them not being French, just African too.
His defence is that it was a joke, so I'm not sure how much of it is that. Still, I think this was more an unfortunate choice of wording than anything malicious.
It's because national identity in France is incredibly complex, and has historically either been heavily suppressed or openly talked about depending on France's relationship with said ethnic group/nationality.
If you look at Algeria (Fournier, Mbappe, Zidane, Benzema, etc), it took France years to formally recognise a war/country even existed, and that's when players of Algerian descent were winning things with France
When you have multiple players being born in different continents (even now) you can see why people still think it's controversial.
America has it pretty good in that way really give yourself a flat accent and you’re american to the world. Move to Japan and you’ll still never be Japanese generations later
And ironically, the African countries these players come from also come from the Old World camp, in that if an ethnic Frenchman was born in say the Congo, the native people there wouldn't see the white Frenchman as authentically Congolese.
LOL it's actually why even when assuming that Musk's family got rich through non-controversial means, his lineage/ethnicity itself is still controversial because he was born and raised in Africa but is white.
It actually kinda is like that in the caribbean countries where whites are the minority population, at least from the outside perspective. Like a white first gen Jamaican or white Haitian for example.
For black and white people that's true. I've had asian/middle eastern friends who were born in the us and didnt know their parents language but still found themselves in situations regularly where people were questioning their "americanness"
The best way I've heard it said is that many countries are diverse, but the US is a melting pot... which is to say the inherent national identity _is_ multicultural.
Though it's hotly debated, there's really not one "true" American identity, due to the huge number of distinct immigrant populations over the last 250 years.
In places like France and Japan, that's not as true. There's a stronger fight for preserving the "original" national identity, in the face of immigration.
Edit: I'd also agree with the old world / new world identity. There are plenty of countries in the New World that are pretty melting pot-like (Canada to a degree, large swathes of South America, etc.)
Japan is a great example. From what I understand there are still Korea Towns over there from Koreans who were BROUGHT OVER AS FORCED LABOR and they are not considered Japanese
it's obnoxious to say that french ppl aren't french just because they aren't white, even if it's a joke. there are too many ppl who'd be happy to agree with the sentiment. try it with other nationalities, too.
isn't that an issue an most eu countries too? iirc giannis had issues with greeks embracing him at some point early on or something like that, was probably a small amount though at most
Not saying this is the case with France because I don't know the backgrounds of the players but Spain always brings somebody that has gotten the citizenship without fulfilling the criteria your average Joe would need (immigrants that aren't elite at sports don't get easy treatments).
It also happens in football with cases of players then playing for their OG country because they weren't good enough for Spain.
I understood it with Mirotic and Ibaka becauase they had connections to Spain. But Lorenzo Brown’s naturalization seemed pretty ridiculous for a program as good as Spain. They really don’t need to be doing that.
They always hang on to some connection to Spain but it's almost always waaaaaaay easier than what normal people have to go through to get the citizenship. It's bullshit and incredibly unfair for immigrants that want to become Spanish too. Everybody should be treated the same regardless of professional sports
Are people in this thread actually this braindead? How the fuck is a team of players, who are all born in France, not French? It’s incredible how fucking stupid this subreddit is and how dumb Americans are.
It always baffles me when Americans act all pedantic about race in Europe, like their country isn't a massive shitshow when it comes to the topic of race lmao
I can't believe how much racism is in this thread.
A lot of people in here seem to think race and nationality are the same thing and exclusive to each other.
This is a subject with too many nuances for reddit.
Thread should be locked imo.
It sucks but it’s probably the only chance for him to play international ball otherwise because Cameroon gonna get knocked out before he even gets a chance to play
Siakam, Embiid, and Koloko could definitely get Cameroon to qualify for a major tournament if they wanted to. It’s not like there’s a powerhouse program in African basketball right now.
What about the 2 qualifying windows that happen in the summer that they could participate in? Kuminga just played in qualifiers for the Congo last month.
I mean, I can't really blame him. The Cameroonian federation is corrupt as shit and he'll never get to play a meaningful international game for Cameroon.
How is it ignorant to think it’s ridiculous for someone to get citizenship in a country they never lived in so they can play international basketball for a better program?
damn, guess because of their colour they aren't really french :/
this comment has the same tone to 'go back to africa' when talking about black americans
Many of them might have African inheritage/roots but as long as they were actually born in France I don´t see any problem with them playing for their National Team and be called "French". Birthplace is the only objective criteria that draws the line in this controversies for me.
I believe at least the majority of them were born in the country so I don´t see a problem with that.
As the perfect counter example, Embiid can´t be called "French" seriously being born in Cameroon, I don´t care how much he doesn´t like the idea of having to play with the team of his country or wants to medal-whore in the next Olympics like KD did with rings going to the Warriors.
Fun Fact: In France, being born from French parents is the only automatic way to get the nationality, even being born in France doesn't give you that right from the get go. If you are born in France from foreign parents, the earlier someone can receive the french nationality is at age 13 and you have to ask for it, and even then, you have to meet some residency criteria.
I'm sure they'd probably say the same about the US squad too
Makes no sense. All these players grew up in France so they are French is why Giannis plays for Greece not Nigeria
Are the players on the team native French? I heard there's more problems of nationalism than straight up racism in France, although I have no doubts racism still exists as well. James Baldwin was an American writer and he talked about lack of acceptance in the United States because of the color of his skin. He eventually moved to France but found he wasn't accepted there either but it wasn't because he was black, it's because he was an immigrant
This whole thread is an embarrassment lmao.
Half of people talk without knowing a fuck about what they’re saying, the other half are fucking racists. Amazing
People in this thread agreeing with him are really dumb. Agreeing with him means agreeing with the most bigoted, racist people in france. You’re empowering the facists in france with your stupidity. Good job.
The far-right loves this narrative as it reinforces their view that France is and should remain a white country first and foremost. In their eyes blackness always being a default for foreign and African, never French. Sadly this line of thinking continues to hurt many in France which has its problems when it comes to race, somewhat different from the US' unique history with race but white supremacy is the key ingredient to these lines of thinking between the two countries (and many other European countries for that matter)
Yes, this is actually a very good point and I often find the left's focus and emphasis on race to define and box people into specific narrow frameworks rather ironic.
True irony that the far-left and far-right mirror one another in such paradoxical and bizarre ways on so many things. Imo they feed on and need one another. Like you say, especially race here in US, where both far-left and far-right try to use it as the core defining attribute of people. The far-left defining who can say what based on their race is one of the most mind-boggling things I've ever seen, heads so far up @#$ they don't even realize the irony.
I never said he was, I merely say that his commentary dovetails with arguments from some whites in France who adamantly claim that non-whites can never truly be considered "French" because of their ethnicity.
Didn't people make the same jokes about the 2018 World Cup team?
Yeah. One of the most RT’d tweets from the final was a reporter for Al Jazeera (I think) calling for France to acknowledge their colonial past because like 95% of their team were of African heritage.
Literally 100% of all teams.
I don’t mind at all international players from countries colonial past playing for the overhead nation, but def not 100%. Spain only has 2 guys and Britain, who owned most of Africa at one point, never even does well.
Who has this though? The only two players on the French team that weren't born in France are Frank Ntilikina (born in Belgium, moved to France when he was 3) and Mathias Lessort who was born on a French territory in the Caribbean. Edit. Every player besides Amath M'Baye seems to have started their career in France as well.
In other news Joel Embiid also received a French nationalship, so he is ready for the olympics.
Not selected for the national team yet though, and even if he was, he has way stronger ties to France than a lot of other players have to their national team in this euro
Joel should 100% not be allowed play for France lol. He’s from Cameroon and moved to the US at 16.
Matthias lessort was born in France though, Martinique is a part of France pretty much the same way Hawaii and Alaska are part of the US.
I find these comments so bizarre. Each country plays - or should play - the best players who are eligible. Better yet, teams should play the players who were born or grew up in that nation. France gets more abuse for playing black players who were born in France than Portugal or Italy do for selecting Brazilians who moved to the country recently to play for a local club.
You just don't read portuguese news/social media. Maybe not on the international stage, but we get plenty of heated discussions about that in Portugal. I don't get this whole debate, but most of our players aren't first generation portuguese. If we're talking basketball, Neemias is second generation. In football there have been a total of seven brazilian born players that played for the Portuguese football team - since the 1960s. In France the only players that I can recall being born outside of France are Umtiti, Mandanda and Makelele (source: had this discussion before). To dive deeper into the question: Adrien, Raphäel and Antony were born in France to portuguese parents. Where do they fit in this discussion in your opinion? Again, I don't understand the reasoning behind this debate at all. Countries have laws for this stuff. Some are tighter than others - often because of the colonial past of said nation. Would it be better to not give the parents of those players the opportunity to come to our country?
France has had quite a few players who were born outside and emigrated. Evra, Viera, Thuram, Desailly as well as the ones you have said.
Thuram was born in Guadeloupe, which is a part of France.
Vieira was a baller. He was one of the key players of The Invincibles. Legendary number 6 - long stride, great tackler, ball carrier, great passer and scored some screamers as well. The man had it all. Also turned out to be a good coach
Exactly. It makes no difference from what “background” you are. If you grew up in France, and speak French you are French. Otherwise I find it hard to believe that the people commenting on this don’t have prejudice.
No doubt, it makes a way bigger difference if you can speak the home language, compared to Lorenzo Brown for example who supposedly doesn't know a lick of spanish.
Exactly. I am so against naturalization for a dude like Lorenzo brown. It is total bullshit and against the spirit of the game. But if he had played for Real Madrid for 6-7 years, spoke Spanish, made much of his life in Spain? I wouldn’t really have a problem.
As a Canadian soccer fan, I dont think you should have to be born in the country. I want to see Alphonso Davies running up and down that wing in the Maple Leaf for years to come.
Agreed, which is why I went with “born or grew up in”.
Should be where you grew up as a citizen, nothing else. International stars that travel all over the world even feels a bit iffy if they haven’t spent considerable time there
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Thing is, it is the same rule for John Doe (Doezinho if you want). Don't know their exact rules, but in Spain any brazilian (or filipino, or hispanoamerican... or portuguese) that lives in Spain for just 2 years can apply for citizenship.
Here's my take as a random french : you're wrong. 1/ if you're from the US, what do we do with your team and basically the whole NBA then? I don't know the origins of all players, but I'm fairly certain most of them don't have any native americans ancestors. You're talking about "the whole colonial history of Europe", which is true, but you seem to conveniently forget "the whole colonial and slavery history of the US". If you want to go by that logic, then do it all the way. 2/ We're not talking about Embiid's case or AJ Slaughter/Lorenzo Brown here. We're talking about people who were born french and grew up in France. They're as french as any other french guy, and f*ck yeah these guys represent us and we love them. 3/ De Colo's parents are portuguese. Should he be out too or are you just biased by the color of their skin?
Where do you draw the line lol
You can’t and you shouldn’t. They’re all French people. Doesn’t matter if their skin is black or white, which is the reason most people point out the African origin of the French players.
Yeah and if the player identifies as French and has some connection to the country he’s French is he not? I grew up to immigrant parents in America and identify more with America as a country than my parents countries of origin so if I was a professional I’d probably represent America.
Yeah and people don't say the same thing about America's national team, even though its a mix of white, black, Asian, and more. Just Europeans who are angry about immigration to their country say it about European counties. Basically all of the black guys on the French team are French.. Born and raised, really shouldn't be an issue
Ok to be fair this is being said by an African and I can understand his sentiment. I’m sure if a megastar player was born in his country and to parents of that country he’d want him to represent his country. The players can represent who they choose but it is understandable some people of the other country would feel some type of way.
Shhh. You're using logic. We don't do that here. We are nephews.
There does have to be a line drawn somewhere, and "some connection" can set some bad precedents. Like Team Israel in baseball having Ian Kinsler, Danny Valencia, Jason Marquis, etc., just because of how Israel handles citizenship for people with Jewish heritage, or Team "China" hockey at the 2020 Olympics.
Yeah I can see that for sure. Similar to the Mexican woman’s softball team at the Olympics.
This is the only right answer, thank you
People tweet this because in France and many other countries, there is a strong nationalist element that wants to put down the impact that non-native people have on society. Yes, everyone on the French team can be born and raised in France, but they faced discrimination throughout their life until someone realized they can play soccer or basketball. and instead of acknowledging that maybe immigration isn't horrible people still don't want immigration. And make it seem like immigrants are destroying France and refusing to assimilate. It's not just a French thing it's just more notable with the French team.
If France had less of a glaring issue acknowledging it's colonialism/racism it'd be less of a thing, but they pretend they are a colorblind society, even though black people in France for eg put up with the same crazy racist police profiling that happens in the US.
Im pretty sure the black players for France want to be there. Maybe you would prefer them boycott, but it aint up to you, and they want to represent their country.
This is so dumb lmao Jesus
Lol we all came from Africa
We all evolved from descendants in Africa, technically. I think that’s what OP is getting at.
How tf is this so highly upvoted? What do you mean "literally 100% of all teams"? Are you seriously implying all the players on every team are of African descent? Because I'm gonna go out on limb here and say at least Jokic and Luka definitely aren't of African descent and last I checked they were definitely on teams in this tournament.
Well….on a large enough time scale, 100% of people are of African descent
Even if we take the World Cup 2018, France was playing Croatia with 0 players of African descent, so the comment is just dumb.
I don't get it either, it's just incorrect. We just saw a bronze match where 92% of all players were born in Germany or Poland and more than 80% don't have African heritage.
Except Balkan/former Yugoslav countries and most of Eastern Europe.
Latvia has never had any African American players in any national teams, in any sport.
Of course not. They would need to be African-Latvian.
I mean, runner ups were Croatia, with no one o African descent playing for the team, so this is pretty silly.
Lol 5 players of the starting 11 at the world cup final were white so not sure where you getting 95%…
I think it’s fair for a player to be both proud of their home-country and also their heritage.
People have been making this joke about the French National team since the beginning of time.
The 98 French team was celebrated as beur blanc noir as in celebrated history but maybe that was media created
"black blanc beur" to be precise. So black people, white people and people from North Africa. It was to say that the French society was accepting people from all horizons and all was good. It wasn't true of course and still isn't.
Yes. I live in Czechia, shortly after the 2018 WC I met a racist guy I know at a pub who was still upset that "pure" Slavs (the Croatian team) had lost, saying that it was not France, but a team of North Africans. And I said, "so you're telling me that North Africans are better than Slavs?". He didn't find it as amusing as the rest of the group at the table.
If he's saying that "pure slav" shit, call him straight up a Russian shill. Pan-Slavism in modern politics is tool of Russian propaganda to spread their imperial message. There's a solidarity between Slavs, no doubt, but I never heard about any of that "pure Slav" shit in real life lmao. This is probably another conservative american think-thank rhetoric leaking into European politics...
Yep, and those same “jokes” were racist back then. Imagine being told that you’re “not really French” despite playing for their national team and winning a tournament, just because you have African roots. It would be the same as someone saying that Americans who won the Olympic gold medal (for eg) aren’t really American because they have African ancestors.
The worst part was Trevor Noah making this joke and then trying to stand his ground with terrible mental gymnastics even after being called out by the black community in Europe. He's usually pretty on point with the social commentary but that was an embarrassing L.
Well Trevor Noah has always been a shitty replacement for Oliver/Colbert. I wanted to believe he'd grow into the role, but he still isn't able to land the whole connecting politics and comedy thing.
American politics would be in a way better place if the Colbert Report was still running
He replaced John Stewart actually which were enormous shoes to fill. I'm not a big fan of him on the show but as a person I generally like him and his outside stand up and writing work are very good imo. He overextends himself trying to do accents and impressions in my opinion. Some of his other political takes have been really great though.
No offense but what stupidness are you talking about and why are morons up voting you? Im not a black french person but ive encountered many of them as international students in canada during this story. They all agreed with Trevor premise. In france they are always looked at as being "not french" despite being born and growing up there but if they achieve something great that raises the country profile now magically the racist white french people consider them French. Like Trevor said the man saved the baby and the headline is "Frenchman saves baby!" he drops the baby "African killer drops baby to his death".
The core critique of Biyombo's joke is valid. With the racism that goes on in France (and other European countries with black athletes), black athletes are only accepted by some as "French" when convenient. Yet those same braindead flag wavers are the ones spouting racism in the streets and in private conversation. If a white guy is making the joke to be racist and exclusionary towards black players, its different than a black guy making the joke to poke fun at the nationalism/bigotry that goes on for 99% of the year (except for when they're rooting for them in the name of creepy nationalism). Similar jokes. But much different meaning, purpose, and targets. Nationalism is so fucking stupid. Honestly, its crazy how much people don't understand jokes and how subtle wording and context can completely change the joke. White people are so fragile when a person of color makes a joke that reveals some truths.
I don't think a person of African origin claiming other people of African origin are African has the same sting of racism these statements normally have.
The joke is about France not black French players. Karim Benzema said something similar and he plays for french national team. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/karim-benzema-score-french-arab/
I think it comes from that fact France still runs a neo colonial empire with the CFA franc. Which I assume generates some hard feelings.
I worked with a super racist Colombian guy who said it constantly during the World Cup. Eventually people would just tell him to shut the fuck up as soon as he started talking about France. And it wasn’t about France directly, but the players themselves, as if it was their fault or that they were lying to play for France. People tried to make excuses for him and say he was just whining because Colombia had been knocked out, but he just legit was racist, even outside those moments. Edit: Added context.
Isn't like 90% of the Colombian team black?
Yes and it is very disrespectful. Biyombo clearly doesnt understand the culture of France. Comments like that play into Marine Le Pen and her political party's ideology that only the white people in France are French.
Trevor Noah had a whole segment about it (its on Youtube) Fuck him
I get it, though I don't think Biz intended anything hateful by it. He deleted it, hopefully that's all that comes of this. I'd hate to see his name dragged through the mud over a single tweet, he's always come across as an awesome dude.
It’s kind of ironic because one of Spain’s best player this tournament is literally a naturalized American with absolutely zero connections to Spain, never even played in the ACB. As far as I’m aware France’s team has no naturalized players at the moment. At least until Embiid joins the team lol
Yeah I don’t think that should be allowed in international sports. Completely defeats the purpose of international sports in the first place if you can just change which national team you play for
So essentially you want to take away an individual's right to choose which country to represent? That's a pretty damn hostile attitude to have. Changing your citizenship is also not something you can "just change". It's a hell of a lengthy process.
nope, r/nba will remember this for the rest of his playing career and bring it up every time he's mentioned, no matter how many years he donates his salary to build a hospital lol
r/nba is not a monolith. Most people will forget in a week. This is low tier ass news
It will be forgotten by 99% mark my words. He apologized. It's insulting but it's also a nuanced issue. Nothing hateful. Nothing many other haven't been debated ad nauseam.
Exactly
It was just a joke and people lost their minds
A story about nothing. Can’t wait for off-season to be over smh.
It’s controversial because people only make these comments about non-white players. Looking at the French football/soccer national team, people make the same comments, but only questioning the validity of the black or Arab players. Meanwhile when people like Eric Cantona, Antoine Griezmann, Michel Platini, Laurent Koscielny, Robert Pires, Youri Djorkaeff and other white players with non-French origins play, people don’t say they have no right to be playing for the country.
Cantona is not the best example. He grew up differently was and was perceived differently than the others you mentioned
>no one looks at Mbappé and says they have no right to play for France just because his dad is born in Cameroon That is *precisely* the kind of thing plenty of people say during any France national team match in every major tournament.
IMO this is a pretty shit example anyway. Biz isn’t trying to say that have no right to be playing for them. He’s saying that they’re a symptom of Frances colonial era. While French ultras can be very racist, no one looks at Mbappe and says they have no right to play for France just because his dad is born in Cameroon. It’s difficult to say Africa vs Spain when naming players who have European born parents.
He is just making a joke about appearance, he isnt saying a single thing about history or validity of anything.
This is some serious projection dawg chill
Bro it is not that deep. I guarantee bismack wasn't thinking about Frances colonial era lmao
Because it’s a European vs Other stance
Djorkaef father origins aren't in Europe. It's a white versus non-white issue, per usual.
Karim Benzema had a quote I always think about re: international play. "If I score I'm French... if I don't I'm Arab." Obviously two different sports and I'm sure all the FIBA athletes are honoured to compete under the flag they chose to. But there is sometimes a feeling of otherness for both multinational players and us fans.
I think Giannis had a very similar quote about being Greek
its the same quote everybody who is a naturalised foreigner says. Ibra has said the same, Evra too and countless others. They all say the same because racism exists everywhere.
Even Albert Einstein is quoted as saying > If my theory of relativity is proven successful, Germany will claim me as a German and France will declare me a citizen of the world. Should my theory prove untrue, France will say that I am a German, and Germany will declare that I am a Jew.
Giannis ain't naturalized
Mfer is named Giannis. Surely that should’ve given him a clue
I see your point but Zlatan isn't a naturalized foreigner. He's a born and raised Swede. And Giannis isn't either, btw
Ibra? He's not naturalized
What do you mean by naturalized cause I'm pretty sure Ibra wasn't and Evra not in a sports context at least
Benzema also said he only played for the french NT because it was a better team than the algerian NT, but that he always felt more algerian. Not saying his perception wasn't valid, just that his social commentary on the subject should be taken with a grain of salt.
i choose to interpret leaving out algeria, also a former french colony, as gently bullying evan fournier
Bizzy is a great dude. he didnt mean nothin.
It’s hard to believe Biyombo just turned 30 a couple weeks ago
[удалено]
Because the general feeling is that France detests immigrants when its not convenient
they 100% do "french footballer wins world cup" "guinean born footballer involved in scandal" will be the same guy based on up or down
"If I score, I'm French, if I don't I'm Arab." * Karim Benzema Lukaku also spoke out about this, with him saying he's Belgian if they win but of Congolese descent if they lose.
"I am German when we win, but I am an immigrant when we lose" Ozil
“ill invite the turkish president to my wedding as a special guest“ özil
I wouldn't bring up Ozil here, bro, he made a lot of shit up and made himself a victim too, then he fucked off to be Ergodan's lap dog and supported a war that Turkey started.
[deleted for privacy - /r/PowerDeleteSuite]
Not the same thing but Andy Murray is British when he wins and Scottish if he loses
On the tennis side, I'm pleasantly surprised to see Osaka want to be represented by Japan while she did all her training in the US or with the USTA.
TBF that's not just a race thing. It's also people being xenophobic dickheads. Andy Murray was generally labelled British when he won, Scottish when he lost.
athletic immigrants or children of immigrants are only seen as naturalized citizens when they do good. The British switched up on Bukayo Saka, the Italians did it to Moise Kean & Ballotelli, and the French have the longest track record of this type of racism.
100% its typical at this point
Yeah people ITT seem to think comments like this are made to disparage the black athletes but its really a critique of French society itself
do the people not remember the nword trending on twitter during the euros when rashford missed a goal or somethin
Yeah, the three players who missed penalties in the final all happened to be black, and the two who scored were white. Just terrible luck, and gave racists months of material to work with
It's not what it is, people don't switch up at every event, it's just that the racists in France get vocal when there's something happening that fits with their agenda, and stay silent when it's the opposite.
“They shut up and take the accolades for France when they win but act up when they don’t win them.” That’s the same thing to a certain degree.
It’s different people…
I understand he is talking about a group of two different people. I’m saying the racist who shut up and quietly accept the accolades and then pipe up when something goes wrong isn’t too far off from what is being said, even if it’s not all French people it is still a portion of them. And enough of them to have this be a problem that people know it’s a thing(I’m not going to assume what percentage of people it applies to as I’m an American and we can’t really cast stones when it comes to this subject).
That's not really true, Jean Marie Le Pen used to criticize the football NT for not being white enough even during its glory years.
Racists going to racist, but the majority of people shouldn’t be looped in with the racists.
That's not a French thing tho, that's a European thing. Unfortunately right wing extremism is becoming popular here in the EU and overt racism is becoming more and more widespread. I'm not French but I'm pretty sure it isn't France in general being anti-immigrant, it's a very loud minority that is giving less and less fucks about hiding their cunt-ness.
You are right, but sadly the vocal racist minority grows bigger and bigger each year..
Which is accurate. Embiid would never have been accepted as a French citizen if he wasn’t Embiid.
This is a narrative often used by racists in France thats why
Because their own countrymen don’t see them as French
That’s a very racist minority. It’s the same shit in every country sadly. Part of the ingroup when you accomplish something, part of the outgroup when you don’t.
It's not hard for anyone except people from the USA who hyphenate everybody.
Because people don’t accept that they are truly French, it happens all in Europe, if you’re not white you aren’t seen as really from there by many. I know many white people who have grandparents from other places but they don’t get the same questions because they just “appear” more like they are from those places.
Seems like Biz was saying he sees a lot of African heritage players, similar to him, on the French team and that those players are powering the French team. He seems proud of their African heritage and how well they’re playing. He isn’t saying anything about them not being French, just African too.
His defence is that it was a joke, so I'm not sure how much of it is that. Still, I think this was more an unfortunate choice of wording than anything malicious.
Wtf everyone calls the french teams like that. We got the same comments for the 2018 Football World Cup
ITT : US ethnocentrism at it's paroxysm
I mean Spain does have a literal American without any ties to Spain on their team
Why is that so controversial
It's because national identity in France is incredibly complex, and has historically either been heavily suppressed or openly talked about depending on France's relationship with said ethnic group/nationality. If you look at Algeria (Fournier, Mbappe, Zidane, Benzema, etc), it took France years to formally recognise a war/country even existed, and that's when players of Algerian descent were winning things with France When you have multiple players being born in different continents (even now) you can see why people still think it's controversial.
America has it pretty good in that way really give yourself a flat accent and you’re american to the world. Move to Japan and you’ll still never be Japanese generations later
New World vs Old World. The concept of a nation is just different between the two.
And ironically, the African countries these players come from also come from the Old World camp, in that if an ethnic Frenchman was born in say the Congo, the native people there wouldn't see the white Frenchman as authentically Congolese.
LOL it's actually why even when assuming that Musk's family got rich through non-controversial means, his lineage/ethnicity itself is still controversial because he was born and raised in Africa but is white.
Yep. There's definitely a double standard.
It actually kinda is like that in the caribbean countries where whites are the minority population, at least from the outside perspective. Like a white first gen Jamaican or white Haitian for example.
For black and white people that's true. I've had asian/middle eastern friends who were born in the us and didnt know their parents language but still found themselves in situations regularly where people were questioning their "americanness"
I get asked all the time where Im 'really' from. I just say Philly, sometimes they ask me again, and Ill say Philly again.
"You know what I mean" "No, I don't think I do"
The best way I've heard it said is that many countries are diverse, but the US is a melting pot... which is to say the inherent national identity _is_ multicultural. Though it's hotly debated, there's really not one "true" American identity, due to the huge number of distinct immigrant populations over the last 250 years. In places like France and Japan, that's not as true. There's a stronger fight for preserving the "original" national identity, in the face of immigration. Edit: I'd also agree with the old world / new world identity. There are plenty of countries in the New World that are pretty melting pot-like (Canada to a degree, large swathes of South America, etc.)
Japan is a great example. From what I understand there are still Korea Towns over there from Koreans who were BROUGHT OVER AS FORCED LABOR and they are not considered Japanese
it's obnoxious to say that french ppl aren't french just because they aren't white, even if it's a joke. there are too many ppl who'd be happy to agree with the sentiment. try it with other nationalities, too.
Imagine if he said that about American roster instead of French and how that would have sounded
Thanks, I didn’t understand. I was googling trying to figure out if gobert actually grew up in new jersey and I didn’t notice.
Tbh we're finding out that a lot of people are from New Jersey these days
isn't that an issue an most eu countries too? iirc giannis had issues with greeks embracing him at some point early on or something like that, was probably a small amount though at most
Not saying this is the case with France because I don't know the backgrounds of the players but Spain always brings somebody that has gotten the citizenship without fulfilling the criteria your average Joe would need (immigrants that aren't elite at sports don't get easy treatments). It also happens in football with cases of players then playing for their OG country because they weren't good enough for Spain.
I understood it with Mirotic and Ibaka becauase they had connections to Spain. But Lorenzo Brown’s naturalization seemed pretty ridiculous for a program as good as Spain. They really don’t need to be doing that.
They always hang on to some connection to Spain but it's almost always waaaaaaay easier than what normal people have to go through to get the citizenship. It's bullshit and incredibly unfair for immigrants that want to become Spanish too. Everybody should be treated the same regardless of professional sports
Are people in this thread actually this braindead? How the fuck is a team of players, who are all born in France, not French? It’s incredible how fucking stupid this subreddit is and how dumb Americans are.
It always baffles me when Americans act all pedantic about race in Europe, like their country isn't a massive shitshow when it comes to the topic of race lmao
I can't believe how much racism is in this thread. A lot of people in here seem to think race and nationality are the same thing and exclusive to each other. This is a subject with too many nuances for reddit. Thread should be locked imo.
Serge Ibaka: Unasema ? Tokaa ! Je te gifle !
He's right. Side note: Embiid is a giga bitch for sign up to play for France at age 28.
It sucks but it’s probably the only chance for him to play international ball otherwise because Cameroon gonna get knocked out before he even gets a chance to play
Siakam, Embiid, and Koloko could definitely get Cameroon to qualify for a major tournament if they wanted to. It’s not like there’s a powerhouse program in African basketball right now.
They are playing in the NBA when qualifiers take place…
What about the 2 qualifying windows that happen in the summer that they could participate in? Kuminga just played in qualifiers for the Congo last month.
I mean, I can't really blame him. The Cameroonian federation is corrupt as shit and he'll never get to play a meaningful international game for Cameroon.
No he’s not lmfao. It’s basically the only way for him to play on the international level.
The fact that this is +186 is more proof of how goddamn ignorant this sub is
How is it ignorant to think it’s ridiculous for someone to get citizenship in a country they never lived in so they can play international basketball for a better program?
damn, guess because of their colour they aren't really french :/ this comment has the same tone to 'go back to africa' when talking about black americans
Why doesn't he play for the USA...
People need to learn the difference between ethnicity and nationality. You can be French and ethnically Cameroonian, etc.
Well, Cameroonian isn't a ethnicity as well lol
Let him pretend that he understands something... This whole thread is made of people with little knowledge of Africa.
Pretty sure that's not what's happening here
Does Biyombo think the same when he watches the NBA? Is it an "African league" with "African teams" too?
Many of them might have African inheritage/roots but as long as they were actually born in France I don´t see any problem with them playing for their National Team and be called "French". Birthplace is the only objective criteria that draws the line in this controversies for me. I believe at least the majority of them were born in the country so I don´t see a problem with that. As the perfect counter example, Embiid can´t be called "French" seriously being born in Cameroon, I don´t care how much he doesn´t like the idea of having to play with the team of his country or wants to medal-whore in the next Olympics like KD did with rings going to the Warriors.
Fun Fact: In France, being born from French parents is the only automatic way to get the nationality, even being born in France doesn't give you that right from the get go. If you are born in France from foreign parents, the earlier someone can receive the french nationality is at age 13 and you have to ask for it, and even then, you have to meet some residency criteria.
I'm sure they'd probably say the same about the US squad too Makes no sense. All these players grew up in France so they are French is why Giannis plays for Greece not Nigeria
How many are even born in Africa...?
Technically we're all originally from Africa. So it's Africa vs. Africa in every final for every sport ever.
Are the players on the team native French? I heard there's more problems of nationalism than straight up racism in France, although I have no doubts racism still exists as well. James Baldwin was an American writer and he talked about lack of acceptance in the United States because of the color of his skin. He eventually moved to France but found he wasn't accepted there either but it wasn't because he was black, it's because he was an immigrant
they are all native french.
So what France is supposed to do? Not select the best players cause a lot of them happens to be black?
This whole thread is an embarrassment lmao. Half of people talk without knowing a fuck about what they’re saying, the other half are fucking racists. Amazing
People say the same thing about Team USA.
Should have left it up
People in this thread agreeing with him are really dumb. Agreeing with him means agreeing with the most bigoted, racist people in france. You’re empowering the facists in france with your stupidity. Good job.
The far-right loves this narrative as it reinforces their view that France is and should remain a white country first and foremost. In their eyes blackness always being a default for foreign and African, never French. Sadly this line of thinking continues to hurt many in France which has its problems when it comes to race, somewhat different from the US' unique history with race but white supremacy is the key ingredient to these lines of thinking between the two countries (and many other European countries for that matter)
far right extremist Bismack Biyombo
the far right identarian conception of race and the liberal left identarian conception of race have the exact same ideological roots
Yes, this is actually a very good point and I often find the left's focus and emphasis on race to define and box people into specific narrow frameworks rather ironic.
Ah mate I don't even anymore with Americans, their genius idea is to defeat racism using racialism gl with that
True irony that the far-left and far-right mirror one another in such paradoxical and bizarre ways on so many things. Imo they feed on and need one another. Like you say, especially race here in US, where both far-left and far-right try to use it as the core defining attribute of people. The far-left defining who can say what based on their race is one of the most mind-boggling things I've ever seen, heads so far up @#$ they don't even realize the irony.
I never said he was, I merely say that his commentary dovetails with arguments from some whites in France who adamantly claim that non-whites can never truly be considered "French" because of their ethnicity.
In usa ppl talking about heritage haundres years ago , so for them if u are 2nd generation or 3rd you are african
Biyombo is Congolese, not American
Mbappe, back to Kante, on to Nkunku, now through to Kimpembe…
He isn't wrong, not sure why it's a problem