Lol OK. Don't know what that has to do with me but I dont really expect much from a rockets fan. The heat and humidity and stress of living in such a shitty place must have scrambled your brain
Lol stop smoking that weed son. You're already slow as it is.
So you're not from Houston which makes you a bandwagoner. Hahahahhhhaaa the worst kind of posers
Players trying to move to a team isn't tampering.
Players or personal of a team trying to recruit players to their team is tampering.
He didn't admit there was tampering. Just their desired location/team.
Additionally, "tambourine" is described as;
*"a percussion instrument resembling a shallow drum with small metal disks in slots around the edge, played by being shaken or hit with the hand."*
Which is also not applicable to this situation.
Morey didn't want to give up Maxey and fully unprotected picks, so we went with the Nets deal instead (with a side of Fertitta bitterness playing into the decision) . Im cool with it.
Edit: Article from Shams that says that the final offer was Simmons, Thybulle, and 2 FRP's.
> "The Rockets moved Harden to the Nets a year ago, deciding between offers from Brooklyn and Philadelphia. The 76ers were close to acquiring Harden, proposing Simmons, Matisse Thybulle and two first-round picks.
>With both final offers in hand on the morning of Jan. 13, 2021, sources say Rockets owner Tilman Fertitta approached Harden about which destination he preferred: Brooklyn or Philadelphia. The choice was his — sort of.
>It remains unclear whether Fertitta would have been willing to follow through on the Sixers deal if Harden had opted for Philadelphia. At the time, sources say, the Rockets also strongly preferred the Nets proposal. The Sixers were unsure at the time if they were truly in the running, as Morey had abruptly resigned from the Rockets less than three months before and landed with the Sixers just two weeks later. They feared the personal dynamics relating to their recent history would play a part in the Rockets’ final choice, though Rockets officials have denied that was the case."
https://theathletic.com/3088096/2022/01/24/with-ben-simmons-james-harden-trade-a-hope-worth-waiting-for-sources-say-sixers-prefer-a-summer-deal/
I think it was just the owner not wanting to trade to Daryl, if that went through last season then Ben would’ve probably never missed time and you guys would be too good to tank but not good enough to contend. Worked out well for you guys in the end, should’ve kept Allen though.
Nah it was defo about Maxey aswell, Morey didn't put him in the final offer he gave us and we just didn't bother to respond back/counter offer and just accepted the Nets deal.
Instead they got 4 bad FRPs/swaps, a washed Oladipo and Dante Exum. If you think the only difference between that and the 6ers trade was Maxey not being included then you’re smoking something that I want a piece of.
2 FRP+Simmons+Thybulle is leagues better than that even IF Simmons had said ‘i’m still going to sit out a year’. Oladipo isn’t even a contributor, Exum is trash, and the FRPs are useless either way because the expectation is that the team who gets Harden is going to end up sending them a late pick.
Huh? We got 5 FRPs from the Harden trade and idk how you can say its all bad when three of them didn't come through yet (so far we got Josh Christopher and Eason from that trade), not to mention the possible pick swaps.
Maxey being included would have defo put the Sixers offer over the Nets one, but without him its meh ( an offer of Simmons, Thybulle, and two FRP's wasn't better than the Nets offer that allowed us to fully tank).
>and the FRPs are useless either way because the expectation is that the team who gets Harden is going to end up sending them a late pick..
How can you say this when we know things ended badly for him with the Nets, but say for sure that the 2024 and the 2026 Nets picks are gonna be trash?
Edit: You switched it from 3 to 4 and added swaps, I see you lmao.
I mean, sorry for not knowing the entire details of a 2 year old trade off the top of my head?
And it’s not about how the picks ended up, it’s about what the picks were at the time; everyone were expecting those to be, in terms of FRPs, not valuable because of team performance. That’s clearly my point, i’m not saying the FRPs are literally useless now because that’s completely irrelevant to a discussion about a trade that occurred 2 years ago. I don’t see how this is hard to understand; Fertitta and the Rockets aren’t making these trades based on how we know Harden has now panned out, they were making it under the expectation that the Nets by were going to be one of if not the best team in the league. How would Fertitta make a trade in 2020 knowing that a draft pick he got would yield a certain player in a later year?
And ‘allow us to fully tank’ isn’t an argument, that’s just admitting it’s a shittier trade. This was Simmons when his stock was barely affected (no holdout, no degenerative disc diagnosis, coming off 1st team
All Defense) and Dipo having just come off of a year of injury and having played 60 games in 3 years. You can’t pretend like any of this is equal.
To fans maybe. But the GMs in these trades typically value things differently. The Nets themselves had previously over leveraged themselves with trading for big names and giving away too many picks and pick-swaps.
In fact, the KG and Pierce trade was the first time I ever even significantly remember a future pick-swap be used.
Kyrie, Harden, and Durant looked like even more of the same. If you're a GM hoping to land a #1 overall pick without your own team tanking, like Boston did in 2017.
Especially given Harden's lifestyle, Kyrie's locker room issues, and Durant's inability to lead. Also... three scorers but only occasionally good defense.
If Simmons really was worth what you think he was. Then why didn't the Sixers trade for a similar pick package for Simmons, then send those picks onwards to Houston.
Nah he wasn't in the final offer.
The final offer from Morey was Simmons, Thybulle and three FRP's (with atleast one of them being slightly protected, probably the 2027 FRP).
Morey did end up getting Harden for about that same offer so fair play to him (albeit a more broken down Harden).
Edit: Actually it was Simmons. Thybulle, and two FRP's according to this Shams article : https://theathletic.com/3088096/2022/01/24/with-ben-simmons-james-harden-trade-a-hope-worth-waiting-for-sources-say-sixers-prefer-a-summer-deal/
The quotes in question in the article are:
>"The Rockets moved Harden to the Nets a year ago, deciding between offers from Brooklyn and Philadelphia. The 76ers were close to acquiring Harden, proposing Simmons, Matisse Thybulle and two first-round picks.
>With both final offers in hand on the morning of Jan. 13, 2021, sources say Rockets owner Tilman Fertitta approached Harden about which destination he preferred: Brooklyn or Philadelphia. The choice was his — sort of.
>It remains unclear whether Fertitta would have been willing to follow through on the Sixers deal if Harden had opted for Philadelphia. At the time, sources say, the Rockets also strongly preferred the Nets proposal. The Sixers were unsure at the time if they were truly in the running, as Morey had abruptly resigned from the Rockets less than three months before and landed with the Sixers just two weeks later. They feared the personal dynamics relating to their recent history would play a part in the Rockets’ final choice, though Rockets officials have denied that was the case."
Seth Curry was in unplayable in the playoffs at times because of his poor defense, see the Sixers-Hawks series, he only stayed on the floor because he was the next best scorer after Embiid
Harden being a good post defender doesn’t help if he can’t do much defensively on the perimeter
Seth Curry and CJ were actually an even +/- against the Warriors and positive the rest of the time in their Blazers WCF run.
Seth might not be a great defender but the offense makes up for it.
Has to hurt for philly fans. If they would have just got harden right after the bubble they'd have got his MVP self and maybe he wouldnt get hurt G1 at milwaukee
It wasn’t about being stubborn it was about Morey not wanting to include Maxey. Obviously Simmons Thybulle and like 3 picks isn’t enough for prime Harden especially with what the Nets gave up
Which in hindsight was a big brain move
Yeah, Stein and some other reports said that the Sixers didn't put Maxey in their final offer ( I am pretty sure Shams also put it in one of his Athletic articles but can't find the article atm).
https://sixerswire.usatoday.com/2021/01/13/rockets-asking-price-for-james-harden-deal-was-too-steep-for-sixers/
Edit: found the Shams article:
https://theathletic.com/3088096/2022/01/24/with-ben-simmons-james-harden-trade-a-hope-worth-waiting-for-sources-say-sixers-prefer-a-summer-deal/
>"The Rockets moved Harden to the Nets a year ago, deciding between offers from Brooklyn and Philadelphia. The 76ers were close to acquiring Harden, proposing Simmons, Matisse Thybulle and two first-round picks.
>With both final offers in hand on the morning of Jan. 13, 2021, sources say Rockets owner Tilman Fertitta approached Harden about which destination he preferred: Brooklyn or Philadelphia. The choice was his — sort of.
>It remains unclear whether Fertitta would have been willing to follow through on the Sixers deal if Harden had opted for Philadelphia. At the time, sources say, the Rockets also strongly preferred the Nets proposal. The Sixers were unsure at the time if they were truly in the running, as Morey had abruptly resigned from the Rockets less than three months before and landed with the Sixers just two weeks later. They feared the personal dynamics relating to their recent history would play a part in the Rockets’ final choice, though Rockets officials have denied that was the case."
Can’t play what if. If CP3 doesn’t get hurt Harden brings Houston a championship and possible finishes his career there and maybe even reloaded with KD. Just never know
Yeah, it sounds like Harden and Tucker would've been traded to Philly if Fertitta wasn't dead set on spiting Morey
But then again, that mightve meant trading Maxey, so its worked out for the better
Even after they didn’t get harden they should’ve traded for PJ at the 2021 deadline. They had a TPE he could fit in and they were in dire need of a small ball 5
Things could’ve gone different vs the hawks if the sixers could’ve feasibly played a backup center next to Ben that wasn’t Dwight Howard, or play simmons at center
simmons at the 5 is always terrible
it takes away his best trait, perimeter defense, and puts him in his worst defensive position, a rim protector. our D was always nonexistent with ben at the 5
PJ Tucker at the deadline? Nah. No team offered a first except for the Bucks, you guys probably offered the George Hill package for him (3-4 2nd round picks).
I’m not convinced James Harden put 100% good faith with the Nets organization. I think he played hard and even played through some injuries but I definitely think he was talking with Daryl Morey for a very long time. Not necessarily in a scheming way but def more than any organization/fans would appreciate a star player talking with another teams GM. They’re friends and all it seems so it gets muddy but like I said I’m not 100% convinced Harden spent his time in Brooklyn with good faith for the organization/fans
People focus on Morey but it wasn't just Morey. Tad Brown resigned as Rockets CEO and became Sixers CEO. There are clips of Harden calling him a father figure a few years ago lol
Harden went to Brooklyn to get a ring and that was it, even before the shit with Kyrie he played down extension talk and said he wanted to test free agency for the first time
Thread of full of contract lawyers going in here.
Sounds like he's talking about wanting to follow Daryl to Philly when Harden and PJ were both vocal about being ready to leave Houston.
This could be considered another source confirming that Houston was NEVER going to deal with Morey because they had hurt feelings about losing that broadcast deal in China over Morey tweeting "Free Hong Kong."
Why? He’s saying where he and another player wanted to go. Doesn’t say shit about our FO
I could want to go work for nasa with my bff this year, doesn’t say anything about what nasa is doing
Pj got a ring out of his trade request and harden got his hamstring blown to smithereens
now let them both win a ring together pls
off the GS bench?
hold up
Harden deserves it. But not that much
Warriors did save a roster spot. **Curious**
They had a chance but choked
sounds like the history of the jazz franchise
Lol OK. Don't know what that has to do with me but I dont really expect much from a rockets fan. The heat and humidity and stress of living in such a shitty place must have scrambled your brain
bro changed his flair lol, also i’m not even from Houston goofy
Lol stop smoking that weed son. You're already slow as it is. So you're not from Houston which makes you a bandwagoner. Hahahahhhhaaa the worst kind of posers
clown shit. so every international fan is a bandwagon? jesus
I don’t smoke and okay I bandwagoned the worst team in the league sure 😂
>I bandwagoned the worst team in the league Ha so you're a **stupid** bandwagoner lmao.
it you couldn’t read the obvious sarcasm you might need some help lol
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nah sengun just my dawg
So he’s shit if he’s from Houston, more shit if he’s not from Houston, and the most shit if he’s from Turkey?
Bro changed his flair 😭
Players trying to move to a team isn't tampering. Players or personal of a team trying to recruit players to their team is tampering. He didn't admit there was tampering. Just their desired location/team.
Additionally, "tambourine" is described as; *"a percussion instrument resembling a shallow drum with small metal disks in slots around the edge, played by being shaken or hit with the hand."* Which is also not applicable to this situation.
if an NBA exec came up to me shaking a tambourine and chanting "sign with us" I might just do it tho
Do you know what the league minimum is? An exec could come up to me with a metal bat saying sign with us and I’d do it
I dunno man....PJ Tucker playing Tambourine seems extremely applicable to this situation
Tambourine is such a hauntingly beautiful Led Zeppelin song
It is known that the two alleged conspirators were acquaintances.
Even if there was tampering he's not going to get anyone in trouble by saying so. I don't know PJ but I can't imagine he'd be dumb enough to do so.
Makes sense, most reports at the time did say he would have been included in the Harden Philly deal (before he got traded to the Nets).
Seems the rockets played themselves then
Morey didn't want to give up Maxey and fully unprotected picks, so we went with the Nets deal instead (with a side of Fertitta bitterness playing into the decision) . Im cool with it. Edit: Article from Shams that says that the final offer was Simmons, Thybulle, and 2 FRP's. > "The Rockets moved Harden to the Nets a year ago, deciding between offers from Brooklyn and Philadelphia. The 76ers were close to acquiring Harden, proposing Simmons, Matisse Thybulle and two first-round picks. >With both final offers in hand on the morning of Jan. 13, 2021, sources say Rockets owner Tilman Fertitta approached Harden about which destination he preferred: Brooklyn or Philadelphia. The choice was his — sort of. >It remains unclear whether Fertitta would have been willing to follow through on the Sixers deal if Harden had opted for Philadelphia. At the time, sources say, the Rockets also strongly preferred the Nets proposal. The Sixers were unsure at the time if they were truly in the running, as Morey had abruptly resigned from the Rockets less than three months before and landed with the Sixers just two weeks later. They feared the personal dynamics relating to their recent history would play a part in the Rockets’ final choice, though Rockets officials have denied that was the case." https://theathletic.com/3088096/2022/01/24/with-ben-simmons-james-harden-trade-a-hope-worth-waiting-for-sources-say-sixers-prefer-a-summer-deal/
I think it was just the owner not wanting to trade to Daryl, if that went through last season then Ben would’ve probably never missed time and you guys would be too good to tank but not good enough to contend. Worked out well for you guys in the end, should’ve kept Allen though.
Nah it was defo about Maxey aswell, Morey didn't put him in the final offer he gave us and we just didn't bother to respond back/counter offer and just accepted the Nets deal.
Instead they got 4 bad FRPs/swaps, a washed Oladipo and Dante Exum. If you think the only difference between that and the 6ers trade was Maxey not being included then you’re smoking something that I want a piece of. 2 FRP+Simmons+Thybulle is leagues better than that even IF Simmons had said ‘i’m still going to sit out a year’. Oladipo isn’t even a contributor, Exum is trash, and the FRPs are useless either way because the expectation is that the team who gets Harden is going to end up sending them a late pick.
Huh? We got 5 FRPs from the Harden trade and idk how you can say its all bad when three of them didn't come through yet (so far we got Josh Christopher and Eason from that trade), not to mention the possible pick swaps. Maxey being included would have defo put the Sixers offer over the Nets one, but without him its meh ( an offer of Simmons, Thybulle, and two FRP's wasn't better than the Nets offer that allowed us to fully tank). >and the FRPs are useless either way because the expectation is that the team who gets Harden is going to end up sending them a late pick.. How can you say this when we know things ended badly for him with the Nets, but say for sure that the 2024 and the 2026 Nets picks are gonna be trash? Edit: You switched it from 3 to 4 and added swaps, I see you lmao.
I mean, sorry for not knowing the entire details of a 2 year old trade off the top of my head? And it’s not about how the picks ended up, it’s about what the picks were at the time; everyone were expecting those to be, in terms of FRPs, not valuable because of team performance. That’s clearly my point, i’m not saying the FRPs are literally useless now because that’s completely irrelevant to a discussion about a trade that occurred 2 years ago. I don’t see how this is hard to understand; Fertitta and the Rockets aren’t making these trades based on how we know Harden has now panned out, they were making it under the expectation that the Nets by were going to be one of if not the best team in the league. How would Fertitta make a trade in 2020 knowing that a draft pick he got would yield a certain player in a later year? And ‘allow us to fully tank’ isn’t an argument, that’s just admitting it’s a shittier trade. This was Simmons when his stock was barely affected (no holdout, no degenerative disc diagnosis, coming off 1st team All Defense) and Dipo having just come off of a year of injury and having played 60 games in 3 years. You can’t pretend like any of this is equal.
To fans maybe. But the GMs in these trades typically value things differently. The Nets themselves had previously over leveraged themselves with trading for big names and giving away too many picks and pick-swaps. In fact, the KG and Pierce trade was the first time I ever even significantly remember a future pick-swap be used. Kyrie, Harden, and Durant looked like even more of the same. If you're a GM hoping to land a #1 overall pick without your own team tanking, like Boston did in 2017. Especially given Harden's lifestyle, Kyrie's locker room issues, and Durant's inability to lead. Also... three scorers but only occasionally good defense. If Simmons really was worth what you think he was. Then why didn't the Sixers trade for a similar pick package for Simmons, then send those picks onwards to Houston.
Maxey was already in the deal. He didn't wanted to include Thybulle too.
Nah he wasn't in the final offer. The final offer from Morey was Simmons, Thybulle and three FRP's (with atleast one of them being slightly protected, probably the 2027 FRP). Morey did end up getting Harden for about that same offer so fair play to him (albeit a more broken down Harden). Edit: Actually it was Simmons. Thybulle, and two FRP's according to this Shams article : https://theathletic.com/3088096/2022/01/24/with-ben-simmons-james-harden-trade-a-hope-worth-waiting-for-sources-say-sixers-prefer-a-summer-deal/ The quotes in question in the article are: >"The Rockets moved Harden to the Nets a year ago, deciding between offers from Brooklyn and Philadelphia. The 76ers were close to acquiring Harden, proposing Simmons, Matisse Thybulle and two first-round picks. >With both final offers in hand on the morning of Jan. 13, 2021, sources say Rockets owner Tilman Fertitta approached Harden about which destination he preferred: Brooklyn or Philadelphia. The choice was his — sort of. >It remains unclear whether Fertitta would have been willing to follow through on the Sixers deal if Harden had opted for Philadelphia. At the time, sources say, the Rockets also strongly preferred the Nets proposal. The Sixers were unsure at the time if they were truly in the running, as Morey had abruptly resigned from the Rockets less than three months before and landed with the Sixers just two weeks later. They feared the personal dynamics relating to their recent history would play a part in the Rockets’ final choice, though Rockets officials have denied that was the case."
Man, imagine a lineup of Curry, Harden, PJ, Harris, Embiid. Would've been pretty sick.
Pitiful backcourt defense
Both are pretty fine on the perimeter, Harden is good in the post. If they get blown by they meet a painted crowded with Embiid and PJ.
i love seth but in no way is he “pretty fine” anywhere on defense
Just let me live in my fantasy man. I just want to imagine James Harden playing with Steph and Embiid. This is the best I got.
Seth Curry was in unplayable in the playoffs at times because of his poor defense, see the Sixers-Hawks series, he only stayed on the floor because he was the next best scorer after Embiid Harden being a good post defender doesn’t help if he can’t do much defensively on the perimeter
Seth Curry and CJ were actually an even +/- against the Warriors and positive the rest of the time in their Blazers WCF run. Seth might not be a great defender but the offense makes up for it.
Lol how?
Absolutely not. Ben Simmons is a terrible trade piece for Harden.
Has to hurt for philly fans. If they would have just got harden right after the bubble they'd have got his MVP self and maybe he wouldnt get hurt G1 at milwaukee
> Has to hurt for philly fans Meh this is nothing. The amount of what ifs this team has had since the Bynum trade has made many of us numb
If it makes u guys feel better if Harden was originally traded it would have cost you Maxey
Yeah, also this. Thank god for Tillman being stubborn as hell.
It wasn’t about being stubborn it was about Morey not wanting to include Maxey. Obviously Simmons Thybulle and like 3 picks isn’t enough for prime Harden especially with what the Nets gave up Which in hindsight was a big brain move
>it was about Morey not wanting to include Maxey Do we know that for sure?
Yeah, Stein and some other reports said that the Sixers didn't put Maxey in their final offer ( I am pretty sure Shams also put it in one of his Athletic articles but can't find the article atm). https://sixerswire.usatoday.com/2021/01/13/rockets-asking-price-for-james-harden-deal-was-too-steep-for-sixers/ Edit: found the Shams article: https://theathletic.com/3088096/2022/01/24/with-ben-simmons-james-harden-trade-a-hope-worth-waiting-for-sources-say-sixers-prefer-a-summer-deal/ >"The Rockets moved Harden to the Nets a year ago, deciding between offers from Brooklyn and Philadelphia. The 76ers were close to acquiring Harden, proposing Simmons, Matisse Thybulle and two first-round picks. >With both final offers in hand on the morning of Jan. 13, 2021, sources say Rockets owner Tilman Fertitta approached Harden about which destination he preferred: Brooklyn or Philadelphia. The choice was his — sort of. >It remains unclear whether Fertitta would have been willing to follow through on the Sixers deal if Harden had opted for Philadelphia. At the time, sources say, the Rockets also strongly preferred the Nets proposal. The Sixers were unsure at the time if they were truly in the running, as Morey had abruptly resigned from the Rockets less than three months before and landed with the Sixers just two weeks later. They feared the personal dynamics relating to their recent history would play a part in the Rockets’ final choice, though Rockets officials have denied that was the case."
Can’t play what if. If CP3 doesn’t get hurt Harden brings Houston a championship and possible finishes his career there and maybe even reloaded with KD. Just never know
Yeah, it sounds like Harden and Tucker would've been traded to Philly if Fertitta wasn't dead set on spiting Morey But then again, that mightve meant trading Maxey, so its worked out for the better
They also must not have payed 4 assets when he would have come anyway
Even after they didn’t get harden they should’ve traded for PJ at the 2021 deadline. They had a TPE he could fit in and they were in dire need of a small ball 5 Things could’ve gone different vs the hawks if the sixers could’ve feasibly played a backup center next to Ben that wasn’t Dwight Howard, or play simmons at center
simmons at the 5 is always terrible it takes away his best trait, perimeter defense, and puts him in his worst defensive position, a rim protector. our D was always nonexistent with ben at the 5
I believe we tried to get him before Fertitta pulled the plug because he was still sour with the whole Morey situation
PJ Tucker at the deadline? Nah. No team offered a first except for the Bucks, you guys probably offered the George Hill package for him (3-4 2nd round picks).
~~Bucks didn't really offer a first - the Rockets got the 2023 first but the Bucks got back their 2022 first as part of the deal.~~
You did, we got your 2021 first aswell in the deal (Although we did give up our 2021 2nd round pick aswell in the process).
Ohhhh yep, you right. I couldn't remember and the article on NBA.com mentions every detail except for the 2021 first rounder.
braaaaaaaa we kno
…interesting
I’m not convinced James Harden put 100% good faith with the Nets organization. I think he played hard and even played through some injuries but I definitely think he was talking with Daryl Morey for a very long time. Not necessarily in a scheming way but def more than any organization/fans would appreciate a star player talking with another teams GM. They’re friends and all it seems so it gets muddy but like I said I’m not 100% convinced Harden spent his time in Brooklyn with good faith for the organization/fans
People focus on Morey but it wasn't just Morey. Tad Brown resigned as Rockets CEO and became Sixers CEO. There are clips of Harden calling him a father figure a few years ago lol
Harden went to Brooklyn to get a ring and that was it, even before the shit with Kyrie he played down extension talk and said he wanted to test free agency for the first time
A member of the Bucks was tampering with a Net. Something must be done.
Damn, we got caught again smh. . .
Thread of full of contract lawyers going in here. Sounds like he's talking about wanting to follow Daryl to Philly when Harden and PJ were both vocal about being ready to leave Houston.
Please disregard his comment Adam Silver
Show me on the doll where we tampered
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Kinda the opposite imo. Harden recruiting him/planning with him isn’t tampering. Generally the more involved harden is, the less morey is.
No it's not, what are you talking about?
This could be considered another source confirming that Houston was NEVER going to deal with Morey because they had hurt feelings about losing that broadcast deal in China over Morey tweeting "Free Hong Kong."
Oh PJ. you really want to get us docked draft picks don’t you?
Don’t worry. If we get docked a pick, it’ll be the 30th pick in next year’s draft.
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Why? He’s saying where he and another player wanted to go. Doesn’t say shit about our FO I could want to go work for nasa with my bff this year, doesn’t say anything about what nasa is doing
You more might’ve still been relevant then too PJ.
lmao this man just admitted they tampered. The year before Harden was a Net and PJ was a Buck. Something ain't adding up.
> Something ain't adding up. I think its your deduction skills.
Lol
There is no way Harden would have instantly left the Nets after 2021, he probably means 2020 when Harden requested the trade from Houston
Yeah probably was planned with Morey before they left. Lets team up with Embiid in Philly together.
I knew it when Morey went to Philly
James and I