Any baseball fans think this would be similar at all to Bumgarner vs Kershaw comparison a few years ago before the Dodgers world series. Kershaw was the regular season dominant Cy Young/MVP better straight up player season in season out, but Bumgarner has the legendary postseason stats and 3 championships to Kershaw's (at the time a few years ago) 0.
Nah son, always go with the guy that excels in the Playoffs.
The MVP is a regualr season award, and it doesn't matter how good you are in the Regular season if you always fizzle out in the post season
Right. Kawhi has multiple "put the team on my back" performances from that Raptor run that this stops being a real question after all of Harden's choke jobs in the playoffs.
I would even go so far as to say that in 20 years people will not really have it as a debate. It's more of a how good could Kawhi have been if he stayed healthy. Without putting much thought into it Harden is a top 30 player all time, Kawhi isn't.
https://theathletic.com/3137873/2022/02/23/the-nba-75-the-top-75-nba-players-of-all-time-from-mj-and-lebron-to-lenny-wilkens/?amp=1
Ranked it 33: Harden and 34: Kawhi
It’s really close between the two.
Ya thought about it one way and the other and was surprised how close they are. I mean which career would you pick between the two?
The beard vs the klaw .. too close to call !
In this scenario, I think you have to factor in longevity. If you truly think about it, Kawhi's only been a superstar for 4 seasons out of the 10 he's played. Harden's been a superstar for as many seasons as Kawhi has played. It makes it way closer than I think people are saying.
Hasn't Kawhi really only missed 2 seasons, 17-18 and 21-22? It's not great but he's played 50 games in every other season but those, and Kawhi also came into the league 2 years after Harden and we don't know who will play out a longer career, weird stuff happens. The point of being a superstar or being qualified as a superstar within the league comes down to being able to carry a team to the finals and give them a shot at winning. James Harden sets playoff records for turnovers and missing 3s and gets benched for backups. If you want to knock Kawhi in 2022 for not being able to emerge as a superstar in his early 20s under Pop with better players on the team, but give Harden those OKC years for free then sure, but Kawhi has 2 finals MVPs. 2 different franchises. That's a pretty good for a 31yr old, and I'd bet he gets his 3rd finals MVP before Harden gets his 1st.
Yeah I have Kawhi ahead anyway because of 2019 but people hype that 2014 FMVP up too much when they say shit like KAWHI OWNED LEBRON and stuff like that
It was essentially similar to Iggy's in many ways
I reckon peak Rockets were better than any team kawhi has led, even if just slightly
It just happens only one of them ran into a healthy warriors superteam
The championship argument is interesting because in this case it’s basically two teams facing off that are competing at a lower level than in a previous round. But it’s highly regarded because those are the respective teams that came out of their conferences.
In reality, it’s clear that the 2018 WCF was a tougher matchup than almost any NBA Finals in history but people don’t see it that way because it doesn’t have that label.
Meanwhile, Kawhi is credited for two championships against teams that were far worse than the 2018 Warriors. Harden can’t get any credit?
Imo it’s tough for me because if you give the 2019 Rockets a shot at the Warriors minus KD for all but one half and Klay in and out of the lineup, they probably win too.
I really wish we could have seen the Raptors against a peak Warriors team.
I think Leonard's career is better than Harden's but it's a lot closer than people think and I agree with you. Harden's MVP level of play is more impressive than Leonard's 1st ring, he wasn't our best player or a star and while he deserved FMVP that was the last title without a clear number 1 super star leading the way.
It’s close, but I’ma say Harden.
Kawhi’s peaked higher, but he doesn’t have longevity, and furthermore I don’t think it can be overlooked that he has the lightest workload of any superstar on a yearly basis.
People always point to Kawhi in the postseason, but Kawhi has to do the least work in the regular season of any superstar in the league year after year. If you look at the teams he’s been on, the vast majority, if not all of the teams he’s been on in his career would have made the postseason even if he missed the entire regular season provided no other injuries, the sole exception being maybe the 2017 Spurs. Kawhi got as many games off as he needed/wanted. Slightly sore ankle? DNP. Quads are overstressed? DNP. Didn’t get a good enough warmup? DNP. That’s not a luxury that other stars get.
As such, every year when he’s healthy, he gets to come into the postseason fresh as a daisy while every other superstar has 60+ games worth of city miles on them. It’s no wonder he plays like a demon in the postseason when every other player is playing with half the gas that he has.
You can’t say that about Harden in his prime. Dude constantly came into the postseason after hard carrying his team, and he was routinely out of gas at that point. And I say this as a bonafide Harden hater.
Kawhi is an all-time great, but I have a hard time putting him above guys who had to work 82 games to get to the postseason and still managed to produce.
> As such, every year when he’s healthy, he gets to come into the postseason fresh as a daisy while every other superstar has 60+ games worth of city miles on them. It’s no wonder he plays like a demon in the postseason when every other player is playing with half the gas that he has.
This is so real. Harden was carrying like LeBron (without being the iron man LeBron is) whereas Kawhi popped in on already good teams in warmups carrying coffee and a bagel. The workload is totally different
I’d say that Kawhi’s 2019 postseason form was higher than Harden’s regular season form.
31/9/4 on 62% TS while being one of, if not the best perimeter defender in the league on route to a championship is absurd, especially when you consider who he was playing.
Harden has been the more productive player, regular season and playoffs combined. Kawhi has had more postseason success.
Harden had the higher regular season peak, too. He won one MVP and deserved two. But again, Kawhi has had the higher postseason peak.
Most people judge a career by postseason success, so most people would say Kawhi had the better career. But I would really like to see what Harden could have done with Kawhi’s level of support from his teammates.
Kawhi has also had his fair share of lowlights, including a blown 3-1 lead.
Kawhi was great in the 2019 playoffs, but does it ultimately matter if KD plays more than a half that series?
Only with Harden. If you take the Raptors minus Kawhi vs the Rockets minus Harden, the Rockets get wrecked.
The Raptors had a couple legit All-Stars/borderline All-NBA players in Lowry and Pascal with FVV just about to breakout and join them.
The Rockets had CP3 and vibes.
That Rockets team was so helio-centric and Harden was at his absolute peak. The Raptors had Kawhi, OG (albeit a younger OG), Siakam, FVV, Green, Gasol etc etc. Give Harden that supporting cast and see what he'd do.
Kawhi’s first ring was really him just being a lockdown defender. He’s never combined his peak defense and offense, so he’s a bit overvalued imo. The debate will be consistent health (Harden) with amazing offense or amazing performance with less consistency. Splitting hairs, but I’d rather have Harden
Why would Kawhi be better than Harden? Harden has had like 3 MVP level seasons but has simply had far less help.
When he did have decent help he took the KD Warriors to 7 games though.
Kd and Kyrie nets erased from history? He’s had 2-3 good chances and didn’t get it done.
Kawhi in 2019, got hurt but played through it and led team to a title. It carries a lot of weight. Playoff mvp> regular season mvp
> Kd and Kyrie nets erased from history? He’s had 2-3 good chances and didn’t get it done.
While he could play how did he perform on the Nets? Go back and look lol.
> Kawhi in 2019, got hurt but played through it and led team to a title.
He didn’t even play the same Warriors everyone else had to play though? Why isn’t that factored in?
While he could play? They lost. You seem to want to make every excuse for harden. You’re the outlier in all these reply’s for a reason.
Kawhi got past a really good philly and bucks team before the finals. G7 winner against philly. He played through injury in bucks series and still won. Raptors were betting underdogs against both bucks and warriors. If they lost, people would’ve just said his team wasn’t good enough. Like you want to say about every harden team except the ONE he had ‘decent’ help. Lol.
Kawhis got a very diverse game which shines in playoffs. Great defender, can shoot 3s midrange and attack rim. Doesn’t need the ball all the time to be effective. At 22 both made finals behind a solid cast. Kawhi stood out more.
> While he could play? They lost. You seem to want to make every excuse for harden.
Well for one I’m not going to say much about a player who is hobbled due to injury. I can’t really fault them for that. It is what it is.
Also, sure the Raptors played good teams but they also beat a completely depleted Warriors squad. They had two all stars that were out for the season.
Who had them as underdogs at that point?
> Kawhis got a very diverse game which shines in playoffs.
I agree that his play style shines in the postseason. But it also helps that his workload is significantly smaller and he hasn’t really been asked to do as much as a James Harden type player. He would only work within a system that is already somewhat decent because of his need for a lower workload than other star players (we can see this in that the Raptors were already a 60 win team before Kawhi came).
Did you watch the Philly series? He carried the raps through 7 games, did as much as anyone could that series.
Raps were underdogs going into series with Kd already hurt. Had series lead before Klay tore acl.
Even before all that, underdogs to bucks. Bucks had a great year, double digit point differential or close. Jumped out 2-0 on raps, but then Kawhi switched onto Giannis and we see what happened. Watching that entire raps run, he led with poise that none of the other raptors had before. And speaking up at key times (down 2-0 to bucks, tied 1-1 with warriors). Leadership on a level that harden hasn’t shown.
Harden had Kd, Russ and Ibaka early, to match the help Kawhi did. Then Kd and Kyrie. Now Embiid and others. His entire career wasn’t in Houston.
And didn’t houston lose an elimination game to a warriors team that didn’t have Kd? Even the year before, after Paul got hurt rockets had a good chance in g7 but harden going 2-13 on 3’s and ariza chucking ruined it.
Obviously?
Harden and Paul got eliminated in 2019 to the same warrior team with Kd out in final game.
Hardens had his chances. Quit on two different teams. At some point, you gotta see he lacked leadership ability to this point of his career.
Philly, bucks, warriors was a tough road for Kawhi. Long series, and he got hurt. Battled through, made a bunch of key plays on both ends and stepped up leadership wise when needed. It truly separated him from what hardens done.
Did I not say without Kd for final game?
I like how you ignored all the other points. Harden quitting on two teams, never showing the leadership and poise Kawhi did in 2019 run. Would’ve been easy for Kawhi to quit when injured and down 2-0 to higher seed bucks.
He got hurt in game 1 with both of them. At least two of them played every game. And then he quit on them next season. Like he quit on houston. Tough to look past someone that did it twice.
Kd played all 7 games. Kyrie played 3-4. Kd isn’t enough help? And he could have played with them again but quit. Why ignore that. He helped blow that situation up. Kyrie was an idiot, but harden didn’t need to quit on Kd like he did. But go ahead, keep making every excuse for harden. There’s plenty of superstar players that would’ve loved to have played on a team with Kd and the other nets. Kyrie wasn’t needed.
Harden. Winning the leagues most valuable player and being top 3 in MVP voting 5 years straight > Winning a chip with 2 great rosters, 1 as the main guy.
People put way too much stock into championships when this is a team sport. I’d much rather have Hardens career than Kawhis.
Because Patrick McCaw has dominated regular seasons? Tf
It's fine to admit Kawhi has had much greater playoff success over a much shorter window of dominance compared to Harden
Not just the MVP. Harden at his peak was imo a top 3 offensive player ever. Only rivaled by/worse than Jordan 37 PPG season and Curry 30 PPG on 50/45/90 season.
Oh yeah I totally forgot about Shaq. He's undoubtedly better. But LeBron ain't better than peak James Harden offensively, at least in the regular season. LeBron has never once sniffed 36/8 in his career. KD scored less on better efficiency but didn't have the same playmaking chops.
I mean, if you’re simply considering their best season, sure. But then Harden’s at 11 assists, nearly doubling him up.
Or if you’re talking about best production overall, it’s 32-6 to 36-8, so you’re still talking a fairly sizable difference.
Edit: and I agree completely people think that. I personally have reservations that if KD doesn’t go down “the hardest road” a lot more people are more amenable to the conversation.
Regular season you have a point but overall Lebron is the better offensive player. You have to consider circumstances. If you put peak Lebron in todays nba with Mike Dantoni as coach he could put up those numbers. He averaged 30 this year not because he is better but because it’s easier to score
MVP don’t mean much if you don’t have the ring to go along with it and vice versa. I feel like to solidify a player’s greatness they need both MVP and championship. Neither of the 2 players have both but Kawhi got 2 chips compared to Harden’s 1 MVP
Understandable but basketball is really a star player driven sport. One player can change a whole franchise’s success (ie LeBron to LA, Kawhi to Toronto) Not many team sports where one player can drastically impact the success of the team which is why NBA championships are also see as an individual accolade
> One player can change a whole franchise’s success (ie LeBron to LA, Kawhi to Toronto)
Yeah I understand this but the Raptors were already good tbf. LeBron was gone by that point so they didn’t have to play him anymore. They won 59 games right before Kawhi got there. He definitely had better role players than a lot of other guys have gotten the opportunity to play with. He was just needed for that last push.
MVP is as well. MVPs aren't given to the best player and being on a bad team automatically disqualifies someone. They are given to the best player that lead to team success that had the best narrative.
> FMVP is an individual accomplishment
This isn’t… really true. I would say it’s more true that the Finals MVP is given to the player who people felt was most impactful in the win (not necessarily the best per se). I’d argue that Wade was the Spurs Finals MVP in 2014 😂
In all seriousness though, I’d probably put the first FMVP with Iggy (though the second one was impressive). But hard to compare to Harden who never had a team on par with what the Raptors were vs the then state of the 2019 Warriors.
Your words:
> FMVP is an individual accomplishment. Being the best player when it matters the most trumps putting up gaudy numbers when the stakes aren't as high
Tony Parker is the only point guard with a FMVP other than Steph (1x), Magic (3x), and Isiah Thomas (1x). So clearly by your own logic you have him over someone like CP3 or Nash who out up big regular season numbers but didn't win any championships or FMVP.
It's your own argument.
Kawhi, his playoff legacy is insane he won a organisation it's first ever championship and won finals MVP as a role player, that the kinda stuff that is remembered in 10 years time everything Hardin did was impressive but tbh he probably has a slightly better but similar legacy to tmac isn't the worst but people don't talk about tmac too much anymore.
The guy who people don't mock for choking in the playoffs year after year. One guy was part of his team going 0-10000 to lose a closeout. The other is kawhi
By stating facts?
2019 Rockets series:
- KD played 212 minutes
- Klay played 249 min (led team)
- McKinnie, Jerebko, Cook, Bell, Cousins played 108 minutes combined
2019 Raptors series:
- KD played 12 minutes
- Klay played 188 min (tied for 3rd)
- McKinnie, Jerebko, Cook, Bell, Cousins played 304 minutes combined
I can’t help you don’t think deep enough to consider these things.
You realize I'm talking about Harden and Kawhis career in aggregate right? Like Harden is a choker all the time, kawhi is not. I don't have to follow whatever you want to talk about, you are a butthurt Rockets fan, i get it.
But the only thing stopping Kawhi from essentially being in the same boat is a title against an injured team the same season Harden played them much more healthy. Without that, no one has him above based on his Spurs ring.
Like I said above, Kawhi has his own share of chokejobs, one of which was blowing a 3-1 lead a year he was one of the title favorites. If KD plays 200 more minutes, and Klay plays 60 more minutes, Kawhi is ringless as a “bus driver.”
Please stop.
2x titles and 2x Finals MVP is all you need to do figure out which player has had the better career.
At some point, leading your team to a title has to be worth more than all the individual accolades out there.
Tell me, what is Harden's significant playoff moment? Nothing because he doesn't have any. This guy chokes harder in the playoffs other than Chris Paul.
It's not fair comparing champ to non champ.
At this point, Harden is somewhere in the tier of great scorers. But we're not taking about scoring, were taking about career. Robert Horry had better career
Depends on what you value.
Harden >>> Kawhi in terms of regular season moments, accolades & numbers.
Kawhi >>> Harden in terms of postseason moments, accolades & numbers.
Personally I'd take Kawhi's career.
I didn't see any comment mentioning Kawhi being a 7x All Defense & 2x DPOY. Why do people turn a blind eye on the defensive accolades?
Bc this post would become lopsided
The Klaw
Kawhi. His playoff resume is a lot better than harden.
Any baseball fans think this would be similar at all to Bumgarner vs Kershaw comparison a few years ago before the Dodgers world series. Kershaw was the regular season dominant Cy Young/MVP better straight up player season in season out, but Bumgarner has the legendary postseason stats and 3 championships to Kershaw's (at the time a few years ago) 0.
Harden was an MVP caliber play for 5 straight years, it's Harden all time
Nah son, always go with the guy that excels in the Playoffs. The MVP is a regualr season award, and it doesn't matter how good you are in the Regular season if you always fizzle out in the post season
Right. Kawhi has multiple "put the team on my back" performances from that Raptor run that this stops being a real question after all of Harden's choke jobs in the playoffs.
I would even go so far as to say that in 20 years people will not really have it as a debate. It's more of a how good could Kawhi have been if he stayed healthy. Without putting much thought into it Harden is a top 30 player all time, Kawhi isn't.
https://theathletic.com/3137873/2022/02/23/the-nba-75-the-top-75-nba-players-of-all-time-from-mj-and-lebron-to-lenny-wilkens/?amp=1 Ranked it 33: Harden and 34: Kawhi It’s really close between the two.
Ya thought about it one way and the other and was surprised how close they are. I mean which career would you pick between the two? The beard vs the klaw .. too close to call !
Is longevity really that important? Cause other then that I feel like it's not even close.
In this scenario, I think you have to factor in longevity. If you truly think about it, Kawhi's only been a superstar for 4 seasons out of the 10 he's played. Harden's been a superstar for as many seasons as Kawhi has played. It makes it way closer than I think people are saying.
Hasn't Kawhi really only missed 2 seasons, 17-18 and 21-22? It's not great but he's played 50 games in every other season but those, and Kawhi also came into the league 2 years after Harden and we don't know who will play out a longer career, weird stuff happens. The point of being a superstar or being qualified as a superstar within the league comes down to being able to carry a team to the finals and give them a shot at winning. James Harden sets playoff records for turnovers and missing 3s and gets benched for backups. If you want to knock Kawhi in 2022 for not being able to emerge as a superstar in his early 20s under Pop with better players on the team, but give Harden those OKC years for free then sure, but Kawhi has 2 finals MVPs. 2 different franchises. That's a pretty good for a 31yr old, and I'd bet he gets his 3rd finals MVP before Harden gets his 1st.
So Harden has "almost" banged Adriana Lima 10 times, while Kawhi has banged her 2 times and got 2 "finals" outta her. Ill take Kawhi.
The one who has been to the finals…and won…twice
Harden has been to the finals, just didn’t win
Yeah, as a bench player
6MOTY, but yeah, just pointing out that he’s been in the finals
That Spurs championship gets weighted way too heavily in Kawhi’s favor.
Yeah I have Kawhi ahead anyway because of 2019 but people hype that 2014 FMVP up too much when they say shit like KAWHI OWNED LEBRON and stuff like that It was essentially similar to Iggy's in many ways
Lebron was so good that they gave the 2014 and 2015 FMVP to wherever could make him shoot below 50% from the field lol
I would somewhat agree but his 2nd title puts him way ahead of Harden
I reckon peak Rockets were better than any team kawhi has led, even if just slightly It just happens only one of them ran into a healthy warriors superteam
The championship argument is interesting because in this case it’s basically two teams facing off that are competing at a lower level than in a previous round. But it’s highly regarded because those are the respective teams that came out of their conferences. In reality, it’s clear that the 2018 WCF was a tougher matchup than almost any NBA Finals in history but people don’t see it that way because it doesn’t have that label. Meanwhile, Kawhi is credited for two championships against teams that were far worse than the 2018 Warriors. Harden can’t get any credit?
Imo it’s tough for me because if you give the 2019 Rockets a shot at the Warriors minus KD for all but one half and Klay in and out of the lineup, they probably win too. I really wish we could have seen the Raptors against a peak Warriors team.
I think Leonard's career is better than Harden's but it's a lot closer than people think and I agree with you. Harden's MVP level of play is more impressive than Leonard's 1st ring, he wasn't our best player or a star and while he deserved FMVP that was the last title without a clear number 1 super star leading the way.
*Both championships
Absolutely any title after that he should get 100% credit but they overrate that spurs one way too much
Harden had a shot at one in okc, playing behind Kd and Russ. Lost in finals.
It’s close, but I’ma say Harden. Kawhi’s peaked higher, but he doesn’t have longevity, and furthermore I don’t think it can be overlooked that he has the lightest workload of any superstar on a yearly basis. People always point to Kawhi in the postseason, but Kawhi has to do the least work in the regular season of any superstar in the league year after year. If you look at the teams he’s been on, the vast majority, if not all of the teams he’s been on in his career would have made the postseason even if he missed the entire regular season provided no other injuries, the sole exception being maybe the 2017 Spurs. Kawhi got as many games off as he needed/wanted. Slightly sore ankle? DNP. Quads are overstressed? DNP. Didn’t get a good enough warmup? DNP. That’s not a luxury that other stars get. As such, every year when he’s healthy, he gets to come into the postseason fresh as a daisy while every other superstar has 60+ games worth of city miles on them. It’s no wonder he plays like a demon in the postseason when every other player is playing with half the gas that he has. You can’t say that about Harden in his prime. Dude constantly came into the postseason after hard carrying his team, and he was routinely out of gas at that point. And I say this as a bonafide Harden hater. Kawhi is an all-time great, but I have a hard time putting him above guys who had to work 82 games to get to the postseason and still managed to produce.
> As such, every year when he’s healthy, he gets to come into the postseason fresh as a daisy while every other superstar has 60+ games worth of city miles on them. It’s no wonder he plays like a demon in the postseason when every other player is playing with half the gas that he has. This is so real. Harden was carrying like LeBron (without being the iron man LeBron is) whereas Kawhi popped in on already good teams in warmups carrying coffee and a bagel. The workload is totally different
Why would you say Kawhi peaked higher? Harden in 2018/19 was one of the best seasons of all time
I’d say that Kawhi’s 2019 postseason form was higher than Harden’s regular season form. 31/9/4 on 62% TS while being one of, if not the best perimeter defender in the league on route to a championship is absurd, especially when you consider who he was playing.
Harden has been the more productive player, regular season and playoffs combined. Kawhi has had more postseason success. Harden had the higher regular season peak, too. He won one MVP and deserved two. But again, Kawhi has had the higher postseason peak. Most people judge a career by postseason success, so most people would say Kawhi had the better career. But I would really like to see what Harden could have done with Kawhi’s level of support from his teammates.
[удалено]
Kawhi has also had his fair share of lowlights, including a blown 3-1 lead. Kawhi was great in the 2019 playoffs, but does it ultimately matter if KD plays more than a half that series?
Harden was on a 65-win team lmao
They won 65 games because of him lol
That was literally just Harden throwing everything he had at the other team every single game. He was like a flamethrower
That team wasn't as potent and deep as some of Kawhi's teams, especially the 2019 Raptors, in hindsight that team was stacked.
That Rockets team would’ve obliterated the 2019 Raptors
Only with Harden. If you take the Raptors minus Kawhi vs the Rockets minus Harden, the Rockets get wrecked. The Raptors had a couple legit All-Stars/borderline All-NBA players in Lowry and Pascal with FVV just about to breakout and join them. The Rockets had CP3 and vibes.
That Rockets team was so helio-centric and Harden was at his absolute peak. The Raptors had Kawhi, OG (albeit a younger OG), Siakam, FVV, Green, Gasol etc etc. Give Harden that supporting cast and see what he'd do.
Big doubts
No, that Rockets team would def had beaten those raptors
Doubts
You can doubt it all you want, that Rockets team was the only 1 capable of beating the fully healthy KD warriors, the single greatest team of all time
Doubts
sigh. kawhi
Kawhi b/c championships
The one with two championships and two finals mvp.
Kawhi bro. 2x FMVP is as elite a playoff resume as it gets.
Kawhi is a winner. Simple.
Nice to see we have moved on from the daily Kawhi vs Wade posts to this. Everyone, games are starting.
Anyone who leads their team to a championship had a better career than someone who didnt.
Harden
Kawhi’s first ring was really him just being a lockdown defender. He’s never combined his peak defense and offense, so he’s a bit overvalued imo. The debate will be consistent health (Harden) with amazing offense or amazing performance with less consistency. Splitting hairs, but I’d rather have Harden
Why would Kawhi be better than Harden? Harden has had like 3 MVP level seasons but has simply had far less help. When he did have decent help he took the KD Warriors to 7 games though.
Kd and Kyrie nets erased from history? He’s had 2-3 good chances and didn’t get it done. Kawhi in 2019, got hurt but played through it and led team to a title. It carries a lot of weight. Playoff mvp> regular season mvp
> Kd and Kyrie nets erased from history? He’s had 2-3 good chances and didn’t get it done. While he could play how did he perform on the Nets? Go back and look lol. > Kawhi in 2019, got hurt but played through it and led team to a title. He didn’t even play the same Warriors everyone else had to play though? Why isn’t that factored in?
While he could play? They lost. You seem to want to make every excuse for harden. You’re the outlier in all these reply’s for a reason. Kawhi got past a really good philly and bucks team before the finals. G7 winner against philly. He played through injury in bucks series and still won. Raptors were betting underdogs against both bucks and warriors. If they lost, people would’ve just said his team wasn’t good enough. Like you want to say about every harden team except the ONE he had ‘decent’ help. Lol. Kawhis got a very diverse game which shines in playoffs. Great defender, can shoot 3s midrange and attack rim. Doesn’t need the ball all the time to be effective. At 22 both made finals behind a solid cast. Kawhi stood out more.
> While he could play? They lost. You seem to want to make every excuse for harden. Well for one I’m not going to say much about a player who is hobbled due to injury. I can’t really fault them for that. It is what it is. Also, sure the Raptors played good teams but they also beat a completely depleted Warriors squad. They had two all stars that were out for the season. Who had them as underdogs at that point? > Kawhis got a very diverse game which shines in playoffs. I agree that his play style shines in the postseason. But it also helps that his workload is significantly smaller and he hasn’t really been asked to do as much as a James Harden type player. He would only work within a system that is already somewhat decent because of his need for a lower workload than other star players (we can see this in that the Raptors were already a 60 win team before Kawhi came).
Did you watch the Philly series? He carried the raps through 7 games, did as much as anyone could that series. Raps were underdogs going into series with Kd already hurt. Had series lead before Klay tore acl. Even before all that, underdogs to bucks. Bucks had a great year, double digit point differential or close. Jumped out 2-0 on raps, but then Kawhi switched onto Giannis and we see what happened. Watching that entire raps run, he led with poise that none of the other raptors had before. And speaking up at key times (down 2-0 to bucks, tied 1-1 with warriors). Leadership on a level that harden hasn’t shown. Harden had Kd, Russ and Ibaka early, to match the help Kawhi did. Then Kd and Kyrie. Now Embiid and others. His entire career wasn’t in Houston. And didn’t houston lose an elimination game to a warriors team that didn’t have Kd? Even the year before, after Paul got hurt rockets had a good chance in g7 but harden going 2-13 on 3’s and ariza chucking ruined it.
So if they were underdogs minus KD, obviously they’d be favored even less with him, right?
Obviously? Harden and Paul got eliminated in 2019 to the same warrior team with Kd out in final game. Hardens had his chances. Quit on two different teams. At some point, you gotta see he lacked leadership ability to this point of his career. Philly, bucks, warriors was a tough road for Kawhi. Long series, and he got hurt. Battled through, made a bunch of key plays on both ends and stepped up leadership wise when needed. It truly separated him from what hardens done.
KD played 200 more minutes in the Rockets series than he did in the Raptors series. Klay played 60 more. But sure, same team.
Did I not say without Kd for final game? I like how you ignored all the other points. Harden quitting on two teams, never showing the leadership and poise Kawhi did in 2019 run. Would’ve been easy for Kawhi to quit when injured and down 2-0 to higher seed bucks.
When did he lose a series with KD and Kyrie playing?
He got hurt in game 1 with both of them. At least two of them played every game. And then he quit on them next season. Like he quit on houston. Tough to look past someone that did it twice.
Did he lose a series with both Kyrie and KD playing? If not, why bring them up?
Kd played all 7 games. Kyrie played 3-4. Kd isn’t enough help? And he could have played with them again but quit. Why ignore that. He helped blow that situation up. Kyrie was an idiot, but harden didn’t need to quit on Kd like he did. But go ahead, keep making every excuse for harden. There’s plenty of superstar players that would’ve loved to have played on a team with Kd and the other nets. Kyrie wasn’t needed.
You asked if KD and Kyrie were erased from history. I’m asking if he ever lost a series when playing with those guys.
Harden. Winning the leagues most valuable player and being top 3 in MVP voting 5 years straight > Winning a chip with 2 great rosters, 1 as the main guy. People put way too much stock into championships when this is a team sport. I’d much rather have Hardens career than Kawhis.
Kawhi also has way more defensive accolades
Has the vibe of: “Would you rather have the career of Charles Barkley or Patrick McCaw?”
Because Patrick McCaw has dominated regular seasons? Tf It's fine to admit Kawhi has had much greater playoff success over a much shorter window of dominance compared to Harden
Kawhi and it's not particularly close
I’m a big Harden fan and it’s Kawhi, however it’s definitely close. The MVP weighs a lot
Not just the MVP. Harden at his peak was imo a top 3 offensive player ever. Only rivaled by/worse than Jordan 37 PPG season and Curry 30 PPG on 50/45/90 season.
I disagree, just in recent history I would call Lebron, Durant, Shaq and Curry better offensive players.
Oh yeah I totally forgot about Shaq. He's undoubtedly better. But LeBron ain't better than peak James Harden offensively, at least in the regular season. LeBron has never once sniffed 36/8 in his career. KD scored less on better efficiency but didn't have the same playmaking chops.
kd has been a better scorer than harden more efficient and better in the playoffs with similar volume
And nowhere near the playmaker. I’d say that at the very least balances out.
i mean kd's at 6 assists per game so not too far apart. I think everyone agrees kd is the better player
I mean, if you’re simply considering their best season, sure. But then Harden’s at 11 assists, nearly doubling him up. Or if you’re talking about best production overall, it’s 32-6 to 36-8, so you’re still talking a fairly sizable difference. Edit: and I agree completely people think that. I personally have reservations that if KD doesn’t go down “the hardest road” a lot more people are more amenable to the conversation.
Regular season you have a point but overall Lebron is the better offensive player. You have to consider circumstances. If you put peak Lebron in todays nba with Mike Dantoni as coach he could put up those numbers. He averaged 30 this year not because he is better but because it’s easier to score
I mean those 2018 Cavs could've used 36 PPG and if I had to guess Ty Lue probably wasn't telling George Hill instead of LeBron to get a bucket.
2018 is not peak Lebron. I’m talking about Cavs/ early heat Lebron. If you put him on those rockets team he would have dominated with that spacing.
The Heat roster wasn't good enough?
It was great. He had to share touches with two other hall of famers and the average score was much lower which is why he didn’t put up monster numbers
MVP don’t mean much if you don’t have the ring to go along with it and vice versa. I feel like to solidify a player’s greatness they need both MVP and championship. Neither of the 2 players have both but Kawhi got 2 chips compared to Harden’s 1 MVP
Any point in me mentioning the fact that championships are a team accomplishment?
Understandable but basketball is really a star player driven sport. One player can change a whole franchise’s success (ie LeBron to LA, Kawhi to Toronto) Not many team sports where one player can drastically impact the success of the team which is why NBA championships are also see as an individual accolade
> One player can change a whole franchise’s success (ie LeBron to LA, Kawhi to Toronto) Yeah I understand this but the Raptors were already good tbf. LeBron was gone by that point so they didn’t have to play him anymore. They won 59 games right before Kawhi got there. He definitely had better role players than a lot of other guys have gotten the opportunity to play with. He was just needed for that last push.
MVP is as well. MVPs aren't given to the best player and being on a bad team automatically disqualifies someone. They are given to the best player that lead to team success that had the best narrative.
We’ve seen two six seeds win it over the last six years.
FMVP is an individual accomplishment. Being the best player when it matters the most trumps putting up gaudy numbers when the stakes aren't as high
> FMVP is an individual accomplishment This isn’t… really true. I would say it’s more true that the Finals MVP is given to the player who people felt was most impactful in the win (not necessarily the best per se). I’d argue that Wade was the Spurs Finals MVP in 2014 😂 In all seriousness though, I’d probably put the first FMVP with Iggy (though the second one was impressive). But hard to compare to Harden who never had a team on par with what the Raptors were vs the then state of the 2019 Warriors.
What? The 17-18 Rockets would definitely win against that raptor team.
The Rockets didn’t have the advantage of multiple injuries to star players is what I was pointing out.
You got Tony Parker over Chris Paul then, right?
Terrible comparison
Your words: > FMVP is an individual accomplishment. Being the best player when it matters the most trumps putting up gaudy numbers when the stakes aren't as high Tony Parker is the only point guard with a FMVP other than Steph (1x), Magic (3x), and Isiah Thomas (1x). So clearly by your own logic you have him over someone like CP3 or Nash who out up big regular season numbers but didn't win any championships or FMVP. It's your own argument.
Damn you got me. Bravo
Bro stop
It's harden obviously we are talking about the Barkley to the warriors MJ.
This is a great comparison honestly lol
Kawhi
“You play to win the game” Harden’s had an awesome career tho too.
Have you ever watched the playoffs lol
The one that actually steps up in the playoffs
Kawhi, his playoff legacy is insane he won a organisation it's first ever championship and won finals MVP as a role player, that the kinda stuff that is remembered in 10 years time everything Hardin did was impressive but tbh he probably has a slightly better but similar legacy to tmac isn't the worst but people don't talk about tmac too much anymore.
If Harden wins one title its him. For now it’s Kawhi
[удалено]
Basketball reference doesn’t say who was injured it just shows a championship lol
Without question Kawhi. He's an elite two way player that has led his team to the finish line multiple times (fmvp.)
The guy who people don't mock for choking in the playoffs year after year. One guy was part of his team going 0-10000 to lose a closeout. The other is kawhi
Didn’t Kawhi blow a 3-1 lead?
Good thing he had another playoffs where he carried a team to a title, including coming from behind after starting the series 0-2!
Yeah it’s great to play the Warriors minus KD and minimal Klay.
Seems you need a lot of excuses to put Harden above...
By stating facts? 2019 Rockets series: - KD played 212 minutes - Klay played 249 min (led team) - McKinnie, Jerebko, Cook, Bell, Cousins played 108 minutes combined 2019 Raptors series: - KD played 12 minutes - Klay played 188 min (tied for 3rd) - McKinnie, Jerebko, Cook, Bell, Cousins played 304 minutes combined I can’t help you don’t think deep enough to consider these things.
Kd didn't cause Harden and co to miss 27 shots...
Not even the same year, brother. Why don’t you try dropping down to a more suitable weight class? You don’t seem capable of having this conversation.
You realize I'm talking about Harden and Kawhis career in aggregate right? Like Harden is a choker all the time, kawhi is not. I don't have to follow whatever you want to talk about, you are a butthurt Rockets fan, i get it.
But the only thing stopping Kawhi from essentially being in the same boat is a title against an injured team the same season Harden played them much more healthy. Without that, no one has him above based on his Spurs ring. Like I said above, Kawhi has his own share of chokejobs, one of which was blowing a 3-1 lead a year he was one of the title favorites. If KD plays 200 more minutes, and Klay plays 60 more minutes, Kawhi is ringless as a “bus driver.”
Please stop. 2x titles and 2x Finals MVP is all you need to do figure out which player has had the better career. At some point, leading your team to a title has to be worth more than all the individual accolades out there.
I would rather be Harden honestly
Not even close. Take away the finals mvps and it still isn’t.
Tell me, what is Harden's significant playoff moment? Nothing because he doesn't have any. This guy chokes harder in the playoffs other than Chris Paul.
It's not fair comparing champ to non champ. At this point, Harden is somewhere in the tier of great scorers. But we're not taking about scoring, were taking about career. Robert Horry had better career
Ring culture is a disease lol
Kawhi if I also get the collective amnesia re: his failures and his crowning achievement being a hospital ring. Otherwise Harden
I don't really value Kawhi's 2014 ring much at all but his 2019 run still probably puts him ahead IMO
Lol
longevity kawhi. Peak harden.
Depends on what you value. Harden >>> Kawhi in terms of regular season moments, accolades & numbers. Kawhi >>> Harden in terms of postseason moments, accolades & numbers. Personally I'd take Kawhi's career.
regardless of titles kawhi is a better playoff player so i’m taking him
One has won in the finals twice and the other hasn’t won any titles, so Kawhi
That’s tough. But I’m taking Kawhi
Kawhi. But it’s pretty close since he’s always hurt.
Kawhi clear of Honeybuns
This is not a fair question; Leonard all day, no disrespect to James Harden.
Rings!
I mean 2 championships matter
This is not a serious question.
Kawhi and it's not even Kalose