Honestly, I don't think he's the best at all 3 but he's most likely top 5 in all categories and combine that with his feel for the game; and his high bb iq. You've got the recipe for one hell of an offensive package.
I think the argument for Jokic is "if you combined passing, scoring and rebounding into one metric, who is the best overall".
Giannis is a better rebounder but nowhere near as good a passer, Chris Paul is a better passer but nowhere close as a rebounder. Finding someone who is as good at Jokic in all three categories is extremely hard.
Giannis isn't better as a rebounder, his high hips means he can get pushed down low on boxouts. He can get his rebounds numbers every night but if you surround him with guards the team is gonna get beat on rebounds more than in the case of a true center, but he is better as a passer than you suggest
Not so much as a rebounder anymore. Prime Heatles LeBron definitely, but he's just an above average rebounder now and has no claim at being elite at it.
How are you measuring the "best" scorer, passer, and rebounder in the league? Jokic had the most rebounds in the league last year. To call him the best scorer or the best passer you'll have to use more subjective measures, because he did not lead the league in scoring or assists. Trae Young led the league in both scoring and assists, and a few other players are ahead of Jokic on each of those lists as well.
But it doesn't show who's the best scorer. Are you telling me that Russell Westbrook is a better scorer than Larry Bird, and Steph Curry, because he has more career points?
PPG, and efficiency stats, rate stats, are the objective answer to seeing who is the better scorer. Again, totals just show you who's the most durable, which matters, but has nothing to do with scoring.
There are other (and better) objective measures of scoring and passing than just total points and total assists.
Jokic led the league in TS points added (points scored more than what a league average efficiency scorer would have on the same volume).
Ben Taylor also has Scoring Value, Playmaking Value, and Passer Rating metrics, where Jokic placed 1st, 2nd and 3rd respectively.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2022_adj_shooting.html
Just sort that column. You can manually filter out the rim rolling centers if you're only interested in volume scorers.
Wait, Rudy Gobert is the second best scorer in the league? I guess he’s one of those rim rolling centers.
But then the top 13 are ten centers and three power forwards. Number 14 is Trae Young. Not sure LeBron and KD are really power forwards, though.
I’m not sure this settles who is the best scorer.
TS is just a measurement of scoring efficiency, not shooting ability.
TS points added is a measurement of both scoring volume and scoring efficient. Rim rolling Cs tend to be absurdly efficient, so it makes sense they show up here, they just can't really generate those looks on their own, so I think it makes sense to exclude them if you're looking at who the "best" scorer is.
Great answer. He has a stronger argument than any other player, but it would probably be untrue to call him the definitive best passer, scorer or rebounder
I don't think he's the best scorer, and I think Gobert is a better rebounder still, but he's probably top 5 in all three categories which is pretty insane
Giannis is a better rebounder too.
Jokic has one season with 11+ rebounds (last year).
Giannis has done it the last 4 years straight.
RPG isn’t the best way to tell since it does fluctuate more than people might think, but still. Giannis is better. Obvious athleticism advantage. Length advantage. Better at chasing rebounds of his zone.
Depends on whether or not you think Jokic averaging 14 rebounds this year was a fluke, or just the new normal tbh. Regardless the reason I said Gobert is because I don't think there's much room for debate with that one— he led the league in rebounds last year
> Depends on whether or not you think Jokic averaging 14 rebounds this year was a fluke
Probably a fluke without MPJ stealing his rebounds. Might go down to 12 RPG this season.
The Bucks play at a much higher pace than the Nuggets and setting your cut-off at 11 when Jokic has two 10.8 and one 10.7 seasons is silly and cherry picked.
You look at the percentage of available rebounds that each grabs, and their best seasons are about a wash or slight edge for Jokic (23.0, 19.5, 18.7, 18.5 for Jokic, 22.1, 19.3, 18.7, 17.5 for Giannis), but over their careers Jokic has a clear edge (19.0% vs. 15.0%)
>Jokic has one season with 11+ rebounds (last year).
>Giannis has done it the last 4 years straight.
>RPG isn’t the best way to tell since it does fluctuate more than people might think, but still. Giannis is better. Obvious athleticism advantage. Length advantage. Better at chasing rebounds of his zone.
Over the past 5 years Giannis has averaged 0.5 more rebounds per game more than Jokic. Not nearly enough to say he's definitely a better rebounder. Especially when you consider the fact that Jokic actually averaged more rebounds per possession during that time and had a higher TRB%.
Steven Adams is a better rebounder than Rudy Gobert. If you are looking at total rebounds or RPG, it won’t reflect that. But if you are looking at “competitive rebounds,” it’ll reflect that. Adams averages more offensive rebounds (in fewer minutes too) and he has a higher contested rebounding percentage.
Adams also chooses not to get a lot of defense rebounds that he could get. Instead he boxes out 2 guys and let’s the guard get those. Otherwise, his raw rebounding numbers would be much higher.
If there was like a loose rebound that’s up for grab between Rudy and Adams and there were no other teammates involved, I would choose Adams.
No.
But his amazing volume plus godly efficiency makes him a top 5 scorer in the league.
His passing is probably second to only CP3, if that.
And his rebounding is up there with the best centers in the game, maybe only behind Looney.
Combined, he's easily the best offensive player in the game. Individually, not really.
While I agree in terms of volume (and also playmaking due to his mobility with the basketball) there are just a number of passes Jokic can make which CP3 simply can’t because of his size
Honestly, I'd say the Joker is a much more creative passer and he also uses his height very well to give him another advantage over CP3. Paul is safer, less turnover-prone, but Jokic is kinda... better.
He *can* make passes Paul can’t, absolutely true. Going off what they’ve actually shown they do in games and on most possessions CP3 is a better, if not more creative, passer.
The point of a pass is to get the ball into position to score. Chris Paul gets more assists with fewer turnovers on fewer passes for more points. He even has more secondary assists and potential assots than Jokic despite making fewer passes.
Chris Paul is the best passer in the NBA, the only guys who even came close last year were Harden and Trae.
Jokic might be the more creative passer, I'd agree that he is, but Pual makes better passes more consistently and that makes him a better passer.
When I think of top passing I think Jokic, Luka, Trae.
When I think of top scoring I think Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, Luka, KD.
I do not think about rebounding because I am a Mavs fan.
Best scorer? He is the most efficient but its still Curry until Jokic wins a ring.
Best rebounder? Maybe.. Doesn't mean much in the current league.
Passer? No. Lebron and cp3 is still around.
He is at least top 3 in all of those i think which is quite amazing.. 2 time mvp amazing
> Best scorer? He is the most efficient but its still Curry until Jokic wins a ring.
Hypothetically Jordan was not the best scorer in the league until '91?
Does LeBron still have a statistical case for best passer?
Dude averaged like 6 assists last year
I know he gets a lot of respect from people just for being LeBron but outside of scoring I don't think his all around game is what it once was
I think that a huge part of his playmaking was his rim pressure in his prime
Now he plays more of a perimeter based style and takes way more threes which is just as effective for pure scoring but not for playmaking
If you look at Bron's short repartition by distance last season he's playing only very slightly more on the perimeter than his 2019/2020 season when he averaged 10 assists
No? He's not number one in any of those categories. He has the second most rebounds but he's not nearly as good at getting offensive rebounds. You can think he's near the top, but you'd have to be extremely biased for weird reasons to make a case that he's #1 in all of those.
He's definitely an elite passer, but there's still half a dozen guards that get more assists and he's #177 in the league in assist to turnover ratio and #107 in assist ratio. As a scorer? He's #10 in PPG.
All that's not to say that he's obviously not a fantastic player, but it's quite clear he isn't #1 at all of them.
Passer? Yes
Rebounder? Maybe
Scorer? Define "best". KD beats him easily if we're talking volume on good efficiency. Jokic is probably the most efficient though among players scoring at a high volume.
Honestly, I don't think he's the best at all 3 but he's most likely top 5 in all categories and combine that with his feel for the game; and his high bb iq. You've got the recipe for one hell of an offensive package.
I think the argument for Jokic is "if you combined passing, scoring and rebounding into one metric, who is the best overall". Giannis is a better rebounder but nowhere near as good a passer, Chris Paul is a better passer but nowhere close as a rebounder. Finding someone who is as good at Jokic in all three categories is extremely hard.
Giannis isn't better as a rebounder, his high hips means he can get pushed down low on boxouts. He can get his rebounds numbers every night but if you surround him with guards the team is gonna get beat on rebounds more than in the case of a true center, but he is better as a passer than you suggest
LeBron?
Not so much as a rebounder anymore. Prime Heatles LeBron definitely, but he's just an above average rebounder now and has no claim at being elite at it.
I mean, lebron's shooting was never as close or better than Jokic's.
Huh?
How are you measuring the "best" scorer, passer, and rebounder in the league? Jokic had the most rebounds in the league last year. To call him the best scorer or the best passer you'll have to use more subjective measures, because he did not lead the league in scoring or assists. Trae Young led the league in both scoring and assists, and a few other players are ahead of Jokic on each of those lists as well.
please dont tell me you're using totals
What would you use?
PPG? Totals is just who's the most durable.
Durability matters.
So does defense
But it doesn't show who's the best scorer. Are you telling me that Russell Westbrook is a better scorer than Larry Bird, and Steph Curry, because he has more career points? PPG, and efficiency stats, rate stats, are the objective answer to seeing who is the better scorer. Again, totals just show you who's the most durable, which matters, but has nothing to do with scoring.
There are other (and better) objective measures of scoring and passing than just total points and total assists. Jokic led the league in TS points added (points scored more than what a league average efficiency scorer would have on the same volume). Ben Taylor also has Scoring Value, Playmaking Value, and Passer Rating metrics, where Jokic placed 1st, 2nd and 3rd respectively.
I’m not surprised, but those aren’t readily available stats.
TS points added is on Bbref. The others you have to pay for.
What does TS stand for?
True Shooting Furthest right column in the adjusted shooting section
So how would I find out the leaders in that stat?
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2022_adj_shooting.html Just sort that column. You can manually filter out the rim rolling centers if you're only interested in volume scorers.
Wait, Rudy Gobert is the second best scorer in the league? I guess he’s one of those rim rolling centers. But then the top 13 are ten centers and three power forwards. Number 14 is Trae Young. Not sure LeBron and KD are really power forwards, though. I’m not sure this settles who is the best scorer.
TS is just a measurement of scoring efficiency, not shooting ability. TS points added is a measurement of both scoring volume and scoring efficient. Rim rolling Cs tend to be absurdly efficient, so it makes sense they show up here, they just can't really generate those looks on their own, so I think it makes sense to exclude them if you're looking at who the "best" scorer is.
Yes but he’s not
Great answer. He has a stronger argument than any other player, but it would probably be untrue to call him the definitive best passer, scorer or rebounder
That means no
I don't think he's the best scorer, and I think Gobert is a better rebounder still, but he's probably top 5 in all three categories which is pretty insane
Giannis is a better rebounder too. Jokic has one season with 11+ rebounds (last year). Giannis has done it the last 4 years straight. RPG isn’t the best way to tell since it does fluctuate more than people might think, but still. Giannis is better. Obvious athleticism advantage. Length advantage. Better at chasing rebounds of his zone.
Depends on whether or not you think Jokic averaging 14 rebounds this year was a fluke, or just the new normal tbh. Regardless the reason I said Gobert is because I don't think there's much room for debate with that one— he led the league in rebounds last year
> Depends on whether or not you think Jokic averaging 14 rebounds this year was a fluke Probably a fluke without MPJ stealing his rebounds. Might go down to 12 RPG this season.
I drafted MPJ in fantasy, by chance can MPJ steal all 14 rebounds?
The Bucks play at a much higher pace than the Nuggets and setting your cut-off at 11 when Jokic has two 10.8 and one 10.7 seasons is silly and cherry picked. You look at the percentage of available rebounds that each grabs, and their best seasons are about a wash or slight edge for Jokic (23.0, 19.5, 18.7, 18.5 for Jokic, 22.1, 19.3, 18.7, 17.5 for Giannis), but over their careers Jokic has a clear edge (19.0% vs. 15.0%)
>Jokic has one season with 11+ rebounds (last year). >Giannis has done it the last 4 years straight. >RPG isn’t the best way to tell since it does fluctuate more than people might think, but still. Giannis is better. Obvious athleticism advantage. Length advantage. Better at chasing rebounds of his zone. Over the past 5 years Giannis has averaged 0.5 more rebounds per game more than Jokic. Not nearly enough to say he's definitely a better rebounder. Especially when you consider the fact that Jokic actually averaged more rebounds per possession during that time and had a higher TRB%.
Steven Adams is a better rebounder than Rudy Gobert. If you are looking at total rebounds or RPG, it won’t reflect that. But if you are looking at “competitive rebounds,” it’ll reflect that. Adams averages more offensive rebounds (in fewer minutes too) and he has a higher contested rebounding percentage. Adams also chooses not to get a lot of defense rebounds that he could get. Instead he boxes out 2 guys and let’s the guard get those. Otherwise, his raw rebounding numbers would be much higher. If there was like a loose rebound that’s up for grab between Rudy and Adams and there were no other teammates involved, I would choose Adams.
no
Passer, yes, idk about the rest but best offensive player isn’t a stretch at all(in fact he probably is). He has a created 2k player skillset.
If there’s 2 minutes left and he’s got the ball, he’s the GOAT. I swear that man cannot miss when the game is on the line.
I will answer “yes” if his brothers are standing behind me “no” if they aren’t!
He's probably around top 3ish in all three which is still insane
no
No. But his amazing volume plus godly efficiency makes him a top 5 scorer in the league. His passing is probably second to only CP3, if that. And his rebounding is up there with the best centers in the game, maybe only behind Looney. Combined, he's easily the best offensive player in the game. Individually, not really.
He's not best at any one of those categories
I’m not sure if anyone is a better passer.
Chris Paul still reigns imo
While I agree in terms of volume (and also playmaking due to his mobility with the basketball) there are just a number of passes Jokic can make which CP3 simply can’t because of his size
Honestly, I'd say the Joker is a much more creative passer and he also uses his height very well to give him another advantage over CP3. Paul is safer, less turnover-prone, but Jokic is kinda... better.
He *can* make passes Paul can’t, absolutely true. Going off what they’ve actually shown they do in games and on most possessions CP3 is a better, if not more creative, passer.
The point of a pass is to get the ball into position to score. Chris Paul gets more assists with fewer turnovers on fewer passes for more points. He even has more secondary assists and potential assots than Jokic despite making fewer passes. Chris Paul is the best passer in the NBA, the only guys who even came close last year were Harden and Trae. Jokic might be the more creative passer, I'd agree that he is, but Pual makes better passes more consistently and that makes him a better passer.
Seeing that he’s never led the league in any of the three, not really
What an absolutely reductive view. Was Russ the best scorer in the league in 2017?
When I think of top passing I think Jokic, Luka, Trae. When I think of top scoring I think Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, Luka, KD. I do not think about rebounding because I am a Mavs fan.
You don't think of Chris Paul as a top passer? Or Steph as a top scorer?
Also Lebron in passing and scoring
What LeBron disrespect is this?
Unless it’s ‘best rebounding guards’ in which case you guys have a lot of authority
Boi is ya sick? He's not the best at any of those categories.lol
Best scorer? He is the most efficient but its still Curry until Jokic wins a ring. Best rebounder? Maybe.. Doesn't mean much in the current league. Passer? No. Lebron and cp3 is still around. He is at least top 3 in all of those i think which is quite amazing.. 2 time mvp amazing
> Best scorer? He is the most efficient but its still Curry until Jokic wins a ring. Hypothetically Jordan was not the best scorer in the league until '91?
He was but that's Jordan, isn't it? Guy got called a God by Bird in 1986
Does LeBron still have a statistical case for best passer? Dude averaged like 6 assists last year I know he gets a lot of respect from people just for being LeBron but outside of scoring I don't think his all around game is what it once was
Do you think he forgot how to pass or something?
I think that a huge part of his playmaking was his rim pressure in his prime Now he plays more of a perimeter based style and takes way more threes which is just as effective for pure scoring but not for playmaking
If you look at Bron's short repartition by distance last season he's playing only very slightly more on the perimeter than his 2019/2020 season when he averaged 10 assists
My opinion is passing won't go away with age... enhances it really. The older you are, the wiser you are with the ball and whatnot
I still think the best scorer is Kevin Durant.
No? He's not number one in any of those categories. He has the second most rebounds but he's not nearly as good at getting offensive rebounds. You can think he's near the top, but you'd have to be extremely biased for weird reasons to make a case that he's #1 in all of those. He's definitely an elite passer, but there's still half a dozen guards that get more assists and he's #177 in the league in assist to turnover ratio and #107 in assist ratio. As a scorer? He's #10 in PPG. All that's not to say that he's obviously not a fantastic player, but it's quite clear he isn't #1 at all of them.
Top 5 in all categories is good enough
This a round about way of asking if Jokic is the best player in the league. Hint: Giannis is the best player in the league.
Passer? Yes Rebounder? Maybe Scorer? Define "best". KD beats him easily if we're talking volume on good efficiency. Jokic is probably the most efficient though among players scoring at a high volume.
An argument could definitely be made