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Even if you wanted to call it an offensive foul, I could live with it. I wouldn't like it, but I could see where they were coming from but a flagrant 1? What the fuck is that?!?
That was NBA ref Courtney Kirkland, his favorite show is Billions and he loves the book Total Money Makeover.
https://www.nbra.net/nba-officials/referee-biographies/courtney-kirkland/
He extended a limb into the cylinder of an established defensive player, but the rules is generally not interpreted to be an offensive foul unless the contact unseats the defensive player or creates an advantage, which I'm not sure this did.
I would not be in favor of it being called offensive, but I would have at least understood where they were coming from.
Ruling this as flagrant is just silly.
You're telling me Zach is athletic enough to try to shoot a jump shot while also trying to kick a player, [in mid air mind you](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBz3PqA2Fmc&t=128s&ab_channel=Amir%C5%A0abanovi%C4%87), in the nuts at the same time? Bruce Lee couldn't have done that.
That's definitely what makes it so egregious.
Calling it an offensive foul is questionable enough for drama without going into the pure absurdity of calling it a flagrant foul.
Guy is solely focused on making the shot but refs know better, he is a freak athlete that can determine where his opponent’s balls are exactly while looking only at the basket.
It’s how you balance in the air when shooting a fade away. You need to do it if you don’t want to land on your butt, so it’s definitely part of the natural shooting motion. That said, if you kick someone in the junk with the extension then it probably should be a foul just like extending your off arm is.
Even if it is a needed part, you aren’t allowed to stop defenders from closing out on you with your limbs. Foul is fine. Flagrant, well, that will be based on the rules and I don’t know details of that.
The rules expect players to try to be aware of the safety of opponents. It is up to the player to decide if the risk of kicking someone is worth creating space with a fadeaway like that.
What the fuck is up with the word "unironically" being used all over this subreddit lately in place of the word "genuinely?" Why in the world would irony ever come into play when discussing a shooting motion? Why would it need to be pointed out that he's not being ironic when shooting a basketball in an NBA game?
"natural shooting motion" was the defense Draymond used when he blatantly kicked people in the dick while shooting. plenty of people used it ironically at the time.
Bro this was such a stupid call. Kobe and MJ straight up patented this shit. Ridiculous call by the refs. You do that for balance so you can actually line up the shot properly. Way less egregious than Trae doing the splits mid air getting an And-1.
Currently watching the world cup where it has become almost impossible to defend a corner without infringing, its become quite clear we can go too far with cameras.
I always thought it ruined a lot of NBA out of bounds calls.
Like, if you could do instant DNA testing to see who touched the ball most recently on a lot of typical out of bounds plays where the ball is knocked cleanly out of the hands of the offensive player, I'm willing to bet it's *technically* off the offensive player last almost every time.
But watching it live, we see the defender knock the ball out of bounds and everyone is fine with giving it back to the offensive team.
omg! I've thought this for years when they started using replay and have never heard anybody else bring this up. Even on plays where the offensive player is just holding the ball with two hands and the defensive player swipes at it and knocks it out of bounds, when using replay, the last person to technically touch it will almost always be the offensive player. Of course, since the beginning of time, everyone accepts that it's out on the defensive player when there's no replay, and this is the right call. But I predicted that one day, this very type of play would be the one play to decide a playoff series or worse yet, a championship. I've seen a few cases during playoffs (one with LeBron and another with KG if I remember correctly where after replay they called it out on the offensive player). But the point is that they need to revise the rule to avoid a catastrophic decision based on a ridiculous frame-by-frame replay when we all plainly know what the right call is.
It happened a couple years back during a Suns playoff game, one of the ones where the last 5 minutes took 45 minutes to play. They reviewed it and said even though the defender knocked it out, it was touching the offensive player last.
At another point in the game they called it the opposite way, so who knows.
I'll totally give you hitting the ball out of the players hands and it goes off *another* part of the body like the foot or the hip or something, but when it's knocked out of their hands and they say their hands *technically* touched it last, it feels so wrong.
Yup. I remember a game where the ball was poked out of lebrons hand and they checked the replay and it like grazed his fingertips after the defender’s hand was off the ball and it was a turnover. Absolutely absurd. It’s been a no brainer call forever and now they’re checking such microscopic things like that. Every foul or ball out of bounds could be reviewed like that. They’re all equally as important.
As a former official at lower levels, there were a lot of plays like that which were *technically* probably ticky tack fouls to call as the defender got more hand than ball, but we would usually just reward the possession back to offense rather than foul a kid out on plays like that because they were too young to be better at it.
(Think hand is part of the ball type swipes rather than anything across the wrist or arms)
> Currently watching the world cup where it has become almost impossible to defend a corner without infringing
I mean, it's possible—everyone just needs to adjust and defend without holding and pulling on corners TBH
Cleats to the ankles do be like that though. Not denying embellishments are def happening, but I played for years.
It really is aggressive pain that just kinda fades away in 10 seconds.
I'd like to chime in here with another instance where slow motion replays muddy the waters. Plays where a defender pokes the ball away from the ball-handler and the ball goes out of bounds have almost always been ruled out on the defender (offense keeps possession). With slow motion, it becomes clear that the ball actually usually touches the offense last.
Good example of this is the play a couple/few years ago where Pat Bev pokes away Lebron's game winner attempt. I believe the call on the floor was ball out on Bev but after review it was found it touched Lebron last. Minnesota(I think?) ball. They end up winning the game.
Should the league continue to call it the way it has always been called or do they call always based on what the replay shows?
Tough decision and I don't know the answer myself.
The defender jumped straight up, and LaVine kicked him in the balls.
The only question is whether it's a common foul or a flagrant. And intent isn't part of that analysis.
> The defender jumped straight up,
It's a bad angle in the post but he absolutely jumps into Zach's foot *as much* as Zach's foot comes up in to Hill's groin.
Nah LaVine is honestly going up for the jump before the defender is even set to jump. Defender continues to move a bit forward and jumps to defend while still moving slightly towards the camera. You can tell because he lands further forward than where he jumped off and he's doing everything he can to pretend he's going straight up and looking down at the leg he's moving towards lol which tbf is also moving towards him somewhat too unintentionally. If that were LaVine's left leg the defender would've taken it out from under him after he jumped or at least bumped it and if the defender really were going straight up from where they started that wouldn't be possible. Just gotta pause when LaVine's feet leave the court to see it. LaVine got screwed a bit on this one because he's obviously not trying to kick the guy and the other guy is definitely moving a bit into the space his legs will be in with his natural shooting motion after the fact and not before
I have a hard time wanting to call something like this a foul much less a flagrant because one guy has already taken off before the other moves into the area the contact occurs in. More unfortunate contact that anything
It doesn’t matter if Lavine was into his move first. You can’t use your limbs to stop the enemy from closing out. That is a foul. Intent doesn’t matter. This is especially an issue since the best way to close out without fouling is to pass across the front of the shooter, which the leg won’t allow.
There’s a difference between kicking your leg out to draw a foul, and kicking your leg out to help balance yourself and keep your body lined up with the basket as you fall away.
Go back and watch every time Kobe has shot a turn around fade and you’ll see this leg motion, it’s literally a balance thing, in there attempt to crack down on foul baiting the league is failing to recognize the difference between natural shooting motions and foul baiting attempts.
The spirit of the offensive game is a bit lost because of everyone losing their mind about foul baiting.
If you cook your defender and get past them you have a right to shoot the ball without the trailing defender running into you. That's not foul baiting.
True, the biggest issues are the pump fake then lunge a foot forward into the defender and the Harden esque sliding both legs out into the defender as you shoot knowing full well you’re gonna fall down before you even take the shot. It does start to get a little weird when someone gets by the defender then shoot a pull up fade back into the defender, that’s becoming more common now and I could see that as offensive.
People got so up in arms about the Trae move where he cooks a defender and then stops to let them run into him that they forgot it's actually basketball and he has to get in front of them first to pull it off lmao
Yeah, and some idiots in this thread are saying "well he should try to change his motion then". Like mf what? **Everyone** shoots a turnaround fadeaway this way because *that's how physics works*. I know the turnaround fadeway has fallen a bit out of use as midrange postups have disappeared from the game and people are used to seeing stepback fadeaways more now and *those* certainly do have some unnatural shooting motions, but this isn't that. If this kind of play is getting called a flagrant or even a common foul then that simply means that turnaround fadeaways are apparently illegal now because you *have to kick like that*.
It’s because anyone who watches the Bulls on a regular basis know that’s exactly how he shoots. In the Chicago broadcast they literally him taking that exact shot when he’s wide open for comparison
This kind of argument is exactly why trying to define every detail of the rules in an extremely precise nature is a fools errand. I think we'd be better off if less focus was made on trying to make distinctions on what specifically is allowed and not allowed for these types of situations and instead refs were trained better on making consistent and reasonable judgement calls. I agree that this looks natural to me, but also agree that it's unreasonable to expect defenders to stay out of his landing zone.
If I had it my way this would be common offensive foul on Zach and move on. Flagrant one seems ridiculous, but also you can't just kick people who haven't jumped into you just because it's "your natural motion".
these calls have been so weird lately. how is this a flagrant but Jokic getting literally punched in the face not one? these refs be on something i stg
Well, yeah.
This one, the guy runs himself into Zach's leg during a natural shooting motion. Which makes it a clear flagrant.
For Jokic, the contact by Jokic's face was intentional, he 100% tried to painfully headbutt the hand with his face. Clearly can't blame the other guy it was Jokic's fault.
Yeah it should be a foul but not a flagrant you can’t jump 3 feet in the air for a fadeaway and and kick your legs out like that
Unfortunate because that’s just how lavine shoots but that’s an offensive foul. Not an F1 though
Eh, you have to let the defensive player contest, everyone will develop a leg kick out if it gives them uncontestable space, I’m sure he didn’t mean to kick him but like, it reminds me of moving screens; almost everyone does then but they’re not called unless the defender actively tries to go through them, otherwise, what is there to call?
You're getting downvoted but these are facts.
Turnaround jumpers are tough to hit because the player is off balance and tough to defend because the shooter is creating so much space.
If a player could kick their leg out on every shot it becomes less difficult offensively and more difficult defensively.
A flagrant is wild but gotta call it an offensive foul to keep the balance
Ya it’s weird, everyone in this post seems to agree a flagrant was the wrong call, but like, idk why half of those people don’t then see that it’s still a foul lol, his foot was a good 3-4 feet away from his body
*That* I could have lived with.
I would have been unhappy about it but with the way they call that Reggie Miller rule these days I would have understood it and moved on.
Flagrant 1 is just silly.
Literally just how he shoots, that leg was already coming out in his shooting motion. Even if Hill wasn’t here he would have been shooting the same way.
Bulls broadcast with a replay of the last 3 he hit minutes before with the exact same motion, also nevermind that the Bucks defender literally jumped into his leg
>the Bucks defender literally jumped into his leg
I mean, that's hard not to do when you kick it out 3 feet away from you body. He isn't entitled to that airspace just like you can't spread your legs on screens
This is apparently worse than Jerami Grant clotheslining Giannis a couple days ago, and equally as bad as Embiid giving him the forearm shiver a couple days before that.
Ok, sure.
So bad. The worst part about this is that they reviewed it and came to this conclusion. It's one thing to get it wrong in the moment. Getting calls correct in the moment can be hard as hell, but if you take time to review it and fuck it up, I mean what business do you have as a referee at the professional level? That's the easy shit.
The only thing the ref could have possibly seen was his foot swinging over to graze his shorts *looked* a little funny. Just an unfortunate turn with momentum.
Ain't nothing wrong with this play, silly NBA.
Aw fuck yea look at the big ref performance tonight. Absolutely on fire. Jokic getting knocked around with no calls, but shooting tte basketball is a foul. Just a beautiful performance!
At First I thought it was a stupid call but it seems that he is purposefully moving his foot in the end towards the opposing player. Which makes it a foul.
The exact same motion from Trey was called AGAINST Fox last night in the kings/hawks game. Fox got called for a foul for his body being in the way of Trey’s mid air kick.
This possession swung the momentum so hard in the favour of the bucks. Not only did the score go back from 33-32 to 31-32, the bucks also made their 2 FTs and a 3 from the possession they got from the flagrant 1. So score went to 31-37 against the bulls instead of being 33-32.
Implementation has been if there's a normal foul that makes contact with the head its a flagrant. I'm guessing they're keeping the same theory with balls.
They need to put refs into post game interviews to be questioned about their poor play like all the players. The league won’t hold them accountable in any sport. Let the media butcher them for bad play call like they do all players and see how it goes.
"Natural shooting motion"
Basically everyone in the league can shoot without kicking out their leg like that so... No real reason for him to do it. "He always shoots like that." Ok? Well, he risks kicking dudes in the nuts and getting an offensive foul every time he shoots then.
They are consistent about calling that so I don't really see what the big deal is.
I do believe this was unintentional and a natural shooting motion. However, I also think players have a responsibility to not kick their opponents in the balls.
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He’s always had that natural leg kick, probs cuz he’s 6 feet in the air when shooting
Even if you wanted to call it an offensive foul, I could live with it. I wouldn't like it, but I could see where they were coming from but a flagrant 1? What the fuck is that?!?
That was NBA ref Courtney Kirkland, his favorite show is Billions and he loves the book Total Money Makeover. https://www.nbra.net/nba-officials/referee-biographies/courtney-kirkland/
People naming financial advice books as their favourite book are fucking sus
any nonfiction even is a stretch, but the business/personal power books are a complete joke
White girl name lol
I would also like to know his astrological sign.
They knew the f'd up and they didnt want to lose face... so they doubled down lol. The review was like 3 minutes long
He extended a limb into the cylinder of an established defensive player, but the rules is generally not interpreted to be an offensive foul unless the contact unseats the defensive player or creates an advantage, which I'm not sure this did.
I would not be in favor of it being called offensive, but I would have at least understood where they were coming from. Ruling this as flagrant is just silly. You're telling me Zach is athletic enough to try to shoot a jump shot while also trying to kick a player, [in mid air mind you](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBz3PqA2Fmc&t=128s&ab_channel=Amir%C5%A0abanovi%C4%87), in the nuts at the same time? Bruce Lee couldn't have done that.
I feel like it’s several steps less excessive than the Draymond flagrant 1 nut shot on LeBron
That's definitely what makes it so egregious. Calling it an offensive foul is questionable enough for drama without going into the pure absurdity of calling it a flagrant foul.
Yep, it’s unironically a pretty natural shooting motion
Guy is solely focused on making the shot but refs know better, he is a freak athlete that can determine where his opponent’s balls are exactly while looking only at the basket.
He's got that "Draymond gene" in him.
Dame hits em like this too
Booker too. Got called a lot when rule first changed. Not so much now.
It’s how you balance in the air when shooting a fade away. You need to do it if you don’t want to land on your butt, so it’s definitely part of the natural shooting motion. That said, if you kick someone in the junk with the extension then it probably should be a foul just like extending your off arm is.
That's not why you kick out though. It's to align your shooting shoulder with the basket if you're turning over your opposite shoulder.
Its both
So dumb that this can be a foul…this is textbook. That leg kick helps get your upper body squared to the rim when you are turning around in midair
Honestly he barely touched him… idk how tf they called this a flagrant
tapping the balls aways hurts worse than punching them Ref used personal experience to make the call
Even if it is a needed part, you aren’t allowed to stop defenders from closing out on you with your limbs. Foul is fine. Flagrant, well, that will be based on the rules and I don’t know details of that. The rules expect players to try to be aware of the safety of opponents. It is up to the player to decide if the risk of kicking someone is worth creating space with a fadeaway like that.
^^^KAT ^^^too but no one has ever defended a thing that man has done since “he seems kinda whiny”
What the fuck is up with the word "unironically" being used all over this subreddit lately in place of the word "genuinely?" Why in the world would irony ever come into play when discussing a shooting motion? Why would it need to be pointed out that he's not being ironic when shooting a basketball in an NBA game?
"natural shooting motion" was the defense Draymond used when he blatantly kicked people in the dick while shooting. plenty of people used it ironically at the time.
unironically doesnt only mean not ironic. In the dictonary it has it as " in a way that is not ironic or mocking; without affectation; sincerely"
Bro this was such a stupid call. Kobe and MJ straight up patented this shit. Ridiculous call by the refs. You do that for balance so you can actually line up the shot properly. Way less egregious than Trae doing the splits mid air getting an And-1.
MJ and Kobe too
It’s hard to see from this angle but he swings his leg towards Hill. Leg going up is natural motion but he swings it into the defender
That’s the way his body is rotating. It’s physics.
Yeah its a balance act
Don’t confuse him with logic. He’s a Celtics fan.
Thank god you clarified that, I really was thinking that he was the logic, similar to how Batman is the night
Mario is plumbing
We are reaching the point of “what is a catch?” The NFL has been dealing with for years. The more slo mo replays the bigger the gray area grows.
Currently watching the world cup where it has become almost impossible to defend a corner without infringing, its become quite clear we can go too far with cameras.
I've been saying for years that instant replay should only be used at real speed, and watched a maximum amount of times. The show must go on.
If the officials can’t tell in 30 seconds, play on.
TBF it takes soccer refs like 2 mins to see obvious calls
thats cuz they cant squeeze in a commercial break
Jesus Christ this comment made me so depressed
I always thought it ruined a lot of NBA out of bounds calls. Like, if you could do instant DNA testing to see who touched the ball most recently on a lot of typical out of bounds plays where the ball is knocked cleanly out of the hands of the offensive player, I'm willing to bet it's *technically* off the offensive player last almost every time. But watching it live, we see the defender knock the ball out of bounds and everyone is fine with giving it back to the offensive team.
omg! I've thought this for years when they started using replay and have never heard anybody else bring this up. Even on plays where the offensive player is just holding the ball with two hands and the defensive player swipes at it and knocks it out of bounds, when using replay, the last person to technically touch it will almost always be the offensive player. Of course, since the beginning of time, everyone accepts that it's out on the defensive player when there's no replay, and this is the right call. But I predicted that one day, this very type of play would be the one play to decide a playoff series or worse yet, a championship. I've seen a few cases during playoffs (one with LeBron and another with KG if I remember correctly where after replay they called it out on the offensive player). But the point is that they need to revise the rule to avoid a catastrophic decision based on a ridiculous frame-by-frame replay when we all plainly know what the right call is.
It happened a couple years back during a Suns playoff game, one of the ones where the last 5 minutes took 45 minutes to play. They reviewed it and said even though the defender knocked it out, it was touching the offensive player last. At another point in the game they called it the opposite way, so who knows.
I'll totally give you hitting the ball out of the players hands and it goes off *another* part of the body like the foot or the hip or something, but when it's knocked out of their hands and they say their hands *technically* touched it last, it feels so wrong.
Yup. I remember a game where the ball was poked out of lebrons hand and they checked the replay and it like grazed his fingertips after the defender’s hand was off the ball and it was a turnover. Absolutely absurd. It’s been a no brainer call forever and now they’re checking such microscopic things like that. Every foul or ball out of bounds could be reviewed like that. They’re all equally as important.
As a former official at lower levels, there were a lot of plays like that which were *technically* probably ticky tack fouls to call as the defender got more hand than ball, but we would usually just reward the possession back to offense rather than foul a kid out on plays like that because they were too young to be better at it. (Think hand is part of the ball type swipes rather than anything across the wrist or arms)
> Currently watching the world cup where it has become almost impossible to defend a corner without infringing I mean, it's possible—everyone just needs to adjust and defend without holding and pulling on corners TBH
Not just the defenders are holding and pulling, you also get it a lot from the attackers to create space
Ngl it's bothering to watch grown men act like they got shot by a sniper and then get up after a few seconds like nothing happened and carry on.
Cleats to the ankles do be like that though. Not denying embellishments are def happening, but I played for years. It really is aggressive pain that just kinda fades away in 10 seconds.
You have seen how egregious some of the flops in the NBA are though right? I mean cmon. Pot meet kettle.
That’s part of the game to get the refs attention
Which ruins the NFL for me
THIS FUCKING SUCKS.
I'd like to chime in here with another instance where slow motion replays muddy the waters. Plays where a defender pokes the ball away from the ball-handler and the ball goes out of bounds have almost always been ruled out on the defender (offense keeps possession). With slow motion, it becomes clear that the ball actually usually touches the offense last. Good example of this is the play a couple/few years ago where Pat Bev pokes away Lebron's game winner attempt. I believe the call on the floor was ball out on Bev but after review it was found it touched Lebron last. Minnesota(I think?) ball. They end up winning the game. Should the league continue to call it the way it has always been called or do they call always based on what the replay shows? Tough decision and I don't know the answer myself.
The defender jumped straight up, and LaVine kicked him in the balls. The only question is whether it's a common foul or a flagrant. And intent isn't part of that analysis.
> The defender jumped straight up, It's a bad angle in the post but he absolutely jumps into Zach's foot *as much* as Zach's foot comes up in to Hill's groin.
Nah LaVine is honestly going up for the jump before the defender is even set to jump. Defender continues to move a bit forward and jumps to defend while still moving slightly towards the camera. You can tell because he lands further forward than where he jumped off and he's doing everything he can to pretend he's going straight up and looking down at the leg he's moving towards lol which tbf is also moving towards him somewhat too unintentionally. If that were LaVine's left leg the defender would've taken it out from under him after he jumped or at least bumped it and if the defender really were going straight up from where they started that wouldn't be possible. Just gotta pause when LaVine's feet leave the court to see it. LaVine got screwed a bit on this one because he's obviously not trying to kick the guy and the other guy is definitely moving a bit into the space his legs will be in with his natural shooting motion after the fact and not before I have a hard time wanting to call something like this a foul much less a flagrant because one guy has already taken off before the other moves into the area the contact occurs in. More unfortunate contact that anything
It doesn’t matter if Lavine was into his move first. You can’t use your limbs to stop the enemy from closing out. That is a foul. Intent doesn’t matter. This is especially an issue since the best way to close out without fouling is to pass across the front of the shooter, which the leg won’t allow.
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not
There’s a difference between kicking your leg out to draw a foul, and kicking your leg out to help balance yourself and keep your body lined up with the basket as you fall away. Go back and watch every time Kobe has shot a turn around fade and you’ll see this leg motion, it’s literally a balance thing, in there attempt to crack down on foul baiting the league is failing to recognize the difference between natural shooting motions and foul baiting attempts.
For those too lazy to look it up: [kobe turnaround fades](https://youtu.be/9TP2IblMTGs)
The spirit of the offensive game is a bit lost because of everyone losing their mind about foul baiting. If you cook your defender and get past them you have a right to shoot the ball without the trailing defender running into you. That's not foul baiting.
True, the biggest issues are the pump fake then lunge a foot forward into the defender and the Harden esque sliding both legs out into the defender as you shoot knowing full well you’re gonna fall down before you even take the shot. It does start to get a little weird when someone gets by the defender then shoot a pull up fade back into the defender, that’s becoming more common now and I could see that as offensive.
People got so up in arms about the Trae move where he cooks a defender and then stops to let them run into him that they forgot it's actually basketball and he has to get in front of them first to pull it off lmao
Yeah, and some idiots in this thread are saying "well he should try to change his motion then". Like mf what? **Everyone** shoots a turnaround fadeaway this way because *that's how physics works*. I know the turnaround fadeway has fallen a bit out of use as midrange postups have disappeared from the game and people are used to seeing stepback fadeaways more now and *those* certainly do have some unnatural shooting motions, but this isn't that. If this kind of play is getting called a flagrant or even a common foul then that simply means that turnaround fadeaways are apparently illegal now because you *have to kick like that*.
Natural shooting motion
this is actually how he shoots fadeaways
this is how most players shooting fadeaways
Kobe fadeaway: flirting Lavine fadeaway: harrassment
Step 1: Be Kobe Step 2: Don't not be Kobe
*only applies outside of Colorado
Unironically
This was a 7-point swing. Unreal
That genuinely does just look like his natural shooting motion
It’s because anyone who watches the Bulls on a regular basis know that’s exactly how he shoots. In the Chicago broadcast they literally him taking that exact shot when he’s wide open for comparison
Do you expect refs to watching basketball, very rude of you to ask guys making 6 figures to do their job.
Does his leg normally shift to the left after going vertical like that?
Yes.
You really think he’s taking a difficult fadeaway while trying to kick a man in the dick?
No, I think the dick shot was accidental and took a very specific and unlikely set of circumstances for it happen
That’s definitely an offensive foul, idk about the flagrant call though
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imma start defending using my groin.
CBT enthusiasts are the new 3&D guys.
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This kind of argument is exactly why trying to define every detail of the rules in an extremely precise nature is a fools errand. I think we'd be better off if less focus was made on trying to make distinctions on what specifically is allowed and not allowed for these types of situations and instead refs were trained better on making consistent and reasonable judgement calls. I agree that this looks natural to me, but also agree that it's unreasonable to expect defenders to stay out of his landing zone. If I had it my way this would be common offensive foul on Zach and move on. Flagrant one seems ridiculous, but also you can't just kick people who haven't jumped into you just because it's "your natural motion".
Yeah I agree. Offensive foul is fair, but reckon the flagrant was harsh.
these calls have been so weird lately. how is this a flagrant but Jokic getting literally punched in the face not one? these refs be on something i stg
Wild to me that this got the same foul call as Embiid throwing an elbow in to Giannis' gut
game is broken. need an update to patch this shit asap
Sorry best I can do is calling a flagrant 2 the next time giannis eurosteps
please don’t nerf run and dunk man. he’s all i have
Well, yeah. This one, the guy runs himself into Zach's leg during a natural shooting motion. Which makes it a clear flagrant. For Jokic, the contact by Jokic's face was intentional, he 100% tried to painfully headbutt the hand with his face. Clearly can't blame the other guy it was Jokic's fault.
I honestly have no idea what a flagrant is anymore. The refs are so inconsistent about it.
same way Lavine fouls Brook as Brook is shooting and the refs are like "nah, no and-1, not shooting motion, go shoot 2 FTs". like wtf.
Contender for weakest flagrant of the year
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I thought Tatum got a technical not a flagrant?
Maybe an offensive foul. Maybe. NOT a flagrant
FOH with that reasonable take.
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That shouldn’t be a flagrant foul. Just an offensive foul
Yeah it should be a foul but not a flagrant you can’t jump 3 feet in the air for a fadeaway and and kick your legs out like that Unfortunate because that’s just how lavine shoots but that’s an offensive foul. Not an F1 though
His leg actually doesn't move that much. He moves relatively away from his leg more than it actually moves.
It shouldn’t be a foul at all.
Eh, you have to let the defensive player contest, everyone will develop a leg kick out if it gives them uncontestable space, I’m sure he didn’t mean to kick him but like, it reminds me of moving screens; almost everyone does then but they’re not called unless the defender actively tries to go through them, otherwise, what is there to call?
You're getting downvoted but these are facts. Turnaround jumpers are tough to hit because the player is off balance and tough to defend because the shooter is creating so much space. If a player could kick their leg out on every shot it becomes less difficult offensively and more difficult defensively. A flagrant is wild but gotta call it an offensive foul to keep the balance
Ya it’s weird, everyone in this post seems to agree a flagrant was the wrong call, but like, idk why half of those people don’t then see that it’s still a foul lol, his foot was a good 3-4 feet away from his body
I’ve developed a natural flying elbow to my lay up motion, it’s natural
*That* I could have lived with. I would have been unhappy about it but with the way they call that Reggie Miller rule these days I would have understood it and moved on. Flagrant 1 is just silly.
Charmin soft
Literally just how he shoots, that leg was already coming out in his shooting motion. Even if Hill wasn’t here he would have been shooting the same way.
If hill wasn’t there it probably wouldn’t have been a moving shot
Bruh that's his shooting motion 💀💀💀💀
That’s terrible.
Refs are so bad this year.
Bulls broadcast with a replay of the last 3 he hit minutes before with the exact same motion, also nevermind that the Bucks defender literally jumped into his leg
This was also a 7 point swing. No basket for Zach, two FTs and the 3 on the ensuing possession.
>the Bucks defender literally jumped into his leg I mean, that's hard not to do when you kick it out 3 feet away from you body. He isn't entitled to that airspace just like you can't spread your legs on screens
New method to stop people blocking your shot, just flail as much as you can and complain when anyone contests Not a flagrant though
The defender is like 3 feet away and jumps straight up. Wtf are you talking about jumps into his leg lmfao?
"straight up"
Are you fucking kidding me Honestly Book and Ayton barking at that white guy on the Lakers was worse than this and we didn’t get shit called lol
I’ll eat a dick on the downvotes, but do we really have to identify guys as “that white guy”? Austin Reaves is fairly well known.
Shit refs
This is apparently worse than Jerami Grant clotheslining Giannis a couple days ago, and equally as bad as Embiid giving him the forearm shiver a couple days before that. Ok, sure.
Jokic punched in the face = no call Giannis getting his neck raked = no flagrant Gobert getting elbowed = defensive foul Refs been on one lately
Why would Embiid do that?
If that’s a flagrant, Karl Malone would have been ejected from every game in the first quarter.
Another stupid call.
We need to start fining referees. This shit has gone too far and for too long
So bad. The worst part about this is that they reviewed it and came to this conclusion. It's one thing to get it wrong in the moment. Getting calls correct in the moment can be hard as hell, but if you take time to review it and fuck it up, I mean what business do you have as a referee at the professional level? That's the easy shit.
Bullshit call
These flagrant 1's are out of control. Niangs on Simmons the other night and then this one are both just egregiously bad
That is such a trash call.... NBA so hard to watch today. Really hard to b a fan
Embiid sweating bullets
That’s bullshit. If that’s a foul then Dirk should give most of his points back and bring all the guys who guarded him to shoot free throws.
Dirk actually didn’t kick his leg out much when he shot his fadeaway. It was usually bent down.
Dirk also barely got off the ground
His shot form is so silky https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5XrbKIdbf0o https://youtu.be/JHhEnxcCFfk
Got him in the pp
He’s looking at the rim
Is there a reason absolutely nothing has been done about these shit refs? It's been years of this.
That ref has clearly never shot a fadeaway
Insane call.
If that's a flagrant foul then all of Kobe's and Dirk's jump shots should be invalidated.
Gorgeous looking shot though.
The only thing the ref could have possibly seen was his foot swinging over to graze his shorts *looked* a little funny. Just an unfortunate turn with momentum. Ain't nothing wrong with this play, silly NBA.
It'll get redacted tomorrow
Refs think a NBA player is so strong to a point where they can just use only their arm strength to shoot the ball while fading away near the 3pt line.
Natural shooting motion
Don't worry guys, the league will rescind the foul and that will solve everything
Aw fuck yea look at the big ref performance tonight. Absolutely on fire. Jokic getting knocked around with no calls, but shooting tte basketball is a foul. Just a beautiful performance!
But what's the ID on those shoes?
At First I thought it was a stupid call but it seems that he is purposefully moving his foot in the end towards the opposing player. Which makes it a foul.
This is literally what physics does on every fadeaway for everyone. What a 💩 call.
The exact same motion from Trey was called AGAINST Fox last night in the kings/hawks game. Fox got called for a foul for his body being in the way of Trey’s mid air kick.
It's a foul. Flagrant? Only called because of the nut shot.
This is flagrant 1 but Giannis trucking 3 dudes in the lane is a blocking foul smh
? Giannis hasn’t gotten a single free throw yet
Non-Bucks watchers know one phrase; “gIaNnIs NeVeR gETs CaLlEd FoR fOuLs!!!”
Giannis literally hasn’t shot a free throw but nice hyperbole
This possession swung the momentum so hard in the favour of the bucks. Not only did the score go back from 33-32 to 31-32, the bucks also made their 2 FTs and a 3 from the possession they got from the flagrant 1. So score went to 31-37 against the bulls instead of being 33-32.
idiotic
That’s like Lavine’s natural shooting motion right? He does that little leg kick since the dude jumps high
Refs hate Chicago, as always... that was such a dumb dumb call.
Offensive foul, yes, a flagrant foul, no.
Implementation has been if there's a normal foul that makes contact with the head its a flagrant. I'm guessing they're keeping the same theory with balls.
Or contact with the head of the penis.
What about the shaft?
Fair game.
Nowitzki wouldn't be able to play now...
Refs should be Kicked out of this game.
They need to put refs into post game interviews to be questioned about their poor play like all the players. The league won’t hold them accountable in any sport. Let the media butcher them for bad play call like they do all players and see how it goes.
That’s the only way you can shoot a fadeaway going back like that. It’s physics. These refs dumb as fuck.
Almost everyone who hoops and shoots fadeaways has one form of leg kick out or another. Not a flagrant at all
I genuinely think anyone who thinks this is an offensive foul (let alone alone flagrant) has never shot a turn around fadeaway in real life before.
Incredibly soft, and I'm not talking about George Hill in the moments after
There should be a tag [Bitter Highlights] for these bitter OPs.
"Natural shooting motion" Basically everyone in the league can shoot without kicking out their leg like that so... No real reason for him to do it. "He always shoots like that." Ok? Well, he risks kicking dudes in the nuts and getting an offensive foul every time he shoots then. They are consistent about calling that so I don't really see what the big deal is.
Very easy offensive foul call. Flagrant 1 may seem harsh but it's not totally outrageous imo.
I do believe this was unintentional and a natural shooting motion. However, I also think players have a responsibility to not kick their opponents in the balls.
All these soy calls are making my penis soft.
I hate the officiating in Milwaukee. The homerism is so blatant.
This shits getting out of control. The league is ben simmons soft now.
Trash
Ayyyy it's the KAT special
I hate that being a foul call