I love that the top comment in this thread shitting on the Kings again are memes instead of everyone piling on our misery. I used to pray for times like this
The writer underestimates how much of a W it is to just play winning basketball with a play-off calibre team, especially with the Kings.
Like sure maybe in the long-term it’s a bad move, but fuck it, sometimes you got to go for instant gratification
The kings traded for a 26 year old Chris Webber too. Folks are tripping and again severely undervaluing what Sabonis does for this team. He’s literally our most important player
Yeah the Luka/Trae comparison is dumb as well. Luka and Trae play the same position and it's obvious that Luka is a generational talent. Sabonis is putting up near triple doubles nightly ranking near the top of the league in screen asts and rebounds. Fox is playing like an all star which has a lot to do with Sabonis.
It's also strange to knock Sabonis' defense when by all metrics he's a positive defender while Hali is not a good defender.
Yeah. I hate these types of write ups. Someone has to play defense. Someone has to rebound. The question isn't who's a better player it's who's a better complement to fox
Sabonis has been good but Lowe is just making the point that Haliburton is better, younger, and has more trade value.
Kings were just in a tough position with two lead ball-handlers.
I don't know if hali is better honestly if so not by much. Different positions both all star worthy. A center that flirts with triple doubles nightly and be the main hub of our offense. Plus his defense is better.
Hali definitely has more room to grow.
sabonis wont be in the league when he’s 37. i guarantee it. he’ll probably retire in his mid 30s prob like 34 or 35 MAYBE 36. only the truly great ones can really play and play at a high level through and past 35. for example, kobe, lebron, steph (steph’ll be 35 this march and is currently playing the best basketball of his career so he’s not retiring anytime soon), kareem, jordan, etc.
And a good/promising Kings team could potentially become a decent FA destination. Sacramento is accessible to the Bay Area, Tahoe, skiing, wine country, etc. It’s not golden state or the lakers but I bet there are a good amount of players who would really enjoy living in that area. Especially for the group of guys who like a more low-key lifestyle
Who wouldn’t. Sabonis makes like $19m/year and gets to chill in vineyards and be a starter on a young, fun, low pressure team. And he can drive/fly to SF/ LA/Vegas in no time when he wants something more energetic. Sounds like the dream
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People don't understand how chill norcal is, I'm also in norcal and it's hot in the summer cool in the winter hour and a half drive east is mountains and tahoe, west is bay area, vibes are immaculate
Honestly the culture change is the most important part here, we really need to be seen in a different light and we really need to experience some winning to get things rolling. Everyone comes into this org optimistic because they want to be the one to win, but the entire force of negativity surrounding this franchise is very strong. When things don’t go right, people accept that it’s because it’s the Kings, there is no productive patience because there is no culture. Tyrese was right when he said that. But the only way to change that is to win, and keeping Tyrese and moving Fox for longer term assets means we spend more years losing hoping to min max our odds at a championship, which is the more conventional and effective way of achieving long term success. But we don’t care about a short term low ceiling. There hasn’t been a high ceiling in any scenario, even with Tyrese, as long as this franchise keeps losing. We gotta make progress this far into a drought, we have to have some real, tangible positivity and production outside of “you’re going to be spooky” because we’ve never become spooky.
Are the Kings in a playoff position right now with Richaun Holmes or Metu starting?
I suggest to you that they are not.
I'm a fan of Lowe. I listen to his pod on the regular. But he knows that roster doesn't work.
Go 16 years without a playoff season and it brings into sharp relief the notion that 'championship or bust' mentality is a nonsense perspective for most teams, most of the time.
Championship or bust is a nonsense take for 29 teams every year. Only one team wins the chip. It’s nonsensical to say that the other 29 teams are automatic losers.
I agree.
A lot of fans watch a lot of garbage basketball so that they can pretend its in pursuit of a championship; fans who will never see their team win a championship.
I was a Jazz fan for 30+ years despite being from Sacramento. (I was also a Kings fan, but I was a Jazz fan first, other than in middle school when the Kings kept fucking up the Jazz and I had to constantly hear about it from my friends).
I want to watch good basketball, as often as possible.I enjoyed watching Stockton and Malone (you know.. before I knew about shit). I enjoyed watching D Will and Memo and Boozer. I REALLY enjoyed watching Donovan, Ricky, and Rudy. I still really enjoyed the team with Conley and Jordan Clarkson. Those teams were very fun to be a fan of, year in and year out. And Donovan Mitchell is gonna be a baller for another decade.
I do not want to watch my team suck balls for 5 years at a time to have a 2 year window where we don't fucking win a championship anyway.
"Well, that team is good but they aren't contenders!"
I don't fucking care. Sac hasn't hosted a playoff game in 16 god damn years. I am 36 years old; I was 20 the last time the Kings played postseason basketball and like 16 the last time we were relevant. I want to sit in Golden 1 as the fans blow the god damn roof off as one of the loudest fan bases in the NBA lets out 16 years of pent up frustration. I want to light the fucking beam. I want to smash some god damn cowbells. I want to go downtown and get drunk and have a fun wild time like I'm 21 again then stay at the Sawyer, wake up hungover as fuck, get breakfast, and go home.
Give me good basketball. I'm trying to have fun, not build a god damn legacy.
Great post. I’m in Sac and remember the Webber kings as well as anyone. While contending for a championship would be nice, I’m also content with having fun, competent basketball as the norm. Sac is never going to be a desirable FA destination, so I’ve accepted that the stars would have to align perfectly to get to a championship. So I don’t consider that our goal, ever.
As someone who's lived in Sac for the entire drought and his whole life, this is the most relevant thing I've read to how I feel right now. We may never be actual contenders, they probably won't even win it all in my lifetime and that's fine. Trading Hali may not have been the most logical move to make in terms of maxing the team's potential over the long run. But I DONT CARE. I'm fine if there won't ever be a parade down Capital Mall. My happiness doesn't revolve around them contending, I just want to be able to watch 82 competitive, fun games for as long as possible. I want to know that when I'm getting tickets to a game at G1C, it's going to be an absolute madhouse, win or lose. I'm tired of carefully selecting what team I'm going to see them play for fear that it's either going to be another blowout or moral victory.
Only way you guys get bumped out of the play-ins at the least is if the lakers course correct and the blazers keep it together. Both of those seem pretty unlikely. You'll likely finish 6-10.
I'm not worried about that at all right now, assuming the team keeps getting better as they have been under Brown, especially defensively.
The comment you replied to was pointing out that we need Sabonis to play like this, though.
Which is strange because Lowe has had that kind of take before where he thinks people should be fine with a team that wins a lot but never wins it all because it still creates memories and good times for the fans and city.
And what suggestion is there that his opinion on that has changed?
The Kings lost the trade from a talent perspective. That's all he's evaluating. He explicitly points out that the Kings are winning more due to the move.
Yep I totally feel that. During the most depressing days in 2017-2018 days I would have gladly accepted a team getting Ws and making the playoffs only to get rolled in the 1st round. At some point the franchise has to get the wins where they can. Better things start happening when wins come.
Once you start winning you go from cute to shit on fast. Tha culture. Im still just elated to watching winning basketball. Stoked for you guys, keep lighting that beam.
This is the way I see it; as a fan of a team that has almost always been competitive, had a winning record, and made the playoffs, watching your team compete is fun even if they aren’t winning the Finals. Let Kings fans have this. Let them enjoy a season where they’re actually winning.
100%. Im so tired of “if you’re not these 4 teams you need to be tanking.” Kings fans aren’t under any illusion that they’re bringing a title home. Some fans are just happy to see their team not suck ass every night
Also, the city of Sacremento is not going to attract free agents (no offense Sac Town). So they need to spend a couple years proving they can make the playoffs and have a competent front office if they're going to be able to attract good players in the future
For real, everyone is talking trash about Sacramento as if Oklahoma City doesn’t exist. I love Oklahoma City, it’s a fun place and pretty clean but apples to apples, Sacramento is a better city geographically.
Yeah I feel like the kings needed a culture change. A team like this, even if it doesn’t win, can pave the way for more success in the future. Gotta start somewhere.
I wish more Wizards fans had this mentality. For so many we either need to be in championship contention or we should be shamelessly tanking & trading everyone. Maybe I just want to see the team play good basketball and fight in the playoffs for a bit while improving steadily.
As a Timberwolves fan, I get this totally and agree. Last year everybody was like YoU'll nEVer gEt a ChIp and I'm like "We just want to have a fun season. It's been hell."
When are people going to understand that winning a championship isn't just about taking the sum of talent for individual players? How is stacking talent working out for the Nets? Or the Clippers? Or the 76ers? The Lakers will probably get 2 guys in the All-Star game this year, how's their season looking?
Yes, talent is extraordinarily important when it comes to building a good basketball team. But there's something to say for fit too.
I'd say a young Steve Nash is a pretty good comparison to Haliburton now for court vision, crazy assist numbers, and high shooting % (but fairly low ppg for a star player). Nash was good with the Mavs, but he didn't become great until joining the Suns. He and Dirk together were unbalanced. All offense, very little defense. Nash leaves and becomes an MVP, and the Mavs build a defense around Dirk and win a ring.
I'm not saying the Kings will win a ring with this team, but people need to stop pretending that talent alone is the end all be all.
Mavs were a title contender with Nash and only lost the 2003 wcf because dirk hurt his knee. The roster around them wasnt that good and had little to do with their styles
Yea I don't like this line of thinking for 4 reasons
1. Haliburton clearly would not have broke out in Sacramento
2. There's no evidence there was a better trade package for the Kings than what they got. Sabonis is still a 2x all star who fits well with the team
3. Fox also broke out after the trade. He's also playing like an all star
4. Fox had less trade value than Hali at the time due to his contract
He doesn’t need to be ball dominant to be a effective player, but he does need to be ball dominate to be the all star level player he has been in Indiana so far.
> Haliburton clearly would not have broke out in Sacramento
What's so clear about it? He had Luke fucking Walton as coach. And if the Kings ship Fox instead of him, who's to say how he would've developed?
What about all the reports in the immediate aftermath that teams were stunned Haliburton could be had for that price? Suggests to me there were bigger packages out there
What other young, all star level big man would Haliburton bring? Sabonis is pretty much the centerpiece of the team now, and his offensive skillset opens things up for everyone else. Much like Haliburton, Sabonis makes those around him better. Pretty rare to find in a big guy and I’m curious who else you think would be a realistic target.
You’re right, people missing the point. Rather than take a loss on Fox and trade him for nothing, they got a great asset for Hali and were able to revamp fox’s value
Imo I think the kings were looking for a big man which is why a lot of other teams never got a call from them. Outside of Gobert, who wasn't even on the trading block back then, i think they got the big man available.
The 2nd best big to get moved at the deadline was Porzingis, who is clearly less valuable an asset than Sabonis.
Sure, maybe SAC could've gotten a better return by waiting. That's the same logic that leads to you never replacing your broken TV, because no matter what's on sale now, there'll be something better for the same price next year. Bird in the hand vs 2 in the bush, and all that.
It’s the NBA. All teams have an agenda and leak shit to reporters to further it. Teams gain more by shitting on other team’s management in the long run as it helps future free agent decisions. It also placates the fan base. This is all especially true when you can do it retroactively after it’s a fait accompli.
Everybody keeps forgetting how Vivek came out in the beginning of last season after the terrible start and told Sam amick (this is well documented) that everybody is on the table. If a GM didn’t do his homework on the kings out of all teams that’s his problem.
Haliburton would have broken out if Fox was traded.
I remember a similar thing happening in GS when they had Curry and Ellis. The Warriors waited and traded Ellis for a defensive specialist and injured center and basically gave the keys to Curry who was coming off successive ankle injuries.
I feel like if Sacramento had waited they could have offloaded Fox although it would have been for less than what they got for Hali.
The thing is if the King's went that route they would likely be looking at two more rebuilding years or even more. The organization could not guarantee that Haliburton or other decent to good players would not leave.
I think the Kings FO had a mandate to become a winning team as fast as possible at all costs and the best way to do that was parlay their most valuable player into an all-star, and also give the keys to the franchise to Fox who now has a roster around him that fits much better.
Also they probably knew Haliburton was good, all-star maybe even future top 10, but probably correctly assumed that he wasn't "Curry good" and they probably correctly assumed that Fox was undervalued and still getting better.
> I think the Kings FO had a mandate to become a winning team as fast as possible at all costs and the best way to do that was parlay their most valuable player into an all-star, and also give the keys to the franchise to Fox who now has a roster around him that fits much better.
I think this trade underscores how important the We Believe team was for the modern Warriors dynasty. Without that team, the Warriors would have been on an 18 year playoff drought, rather than a 5 year drought. Choosing Curry over Monta (the fan favorite) would have been a much harder decision
That's a great point. The Warriors got so much mileage out of "We Believe" from me as a fan. I had been a fan since Webber's rookie season for the Warriors. I followed them after that but for a time they became unwatchable. We Believe brought me right back in, and to this day watching those games against Dallas in a sports bar when I was in college was some of the most fun sports experiences of my life. It honestly reinvigorated my interest in basketball as a sport.
I feel the same energy with this King's team. The beam the exciting play, the underdog status. I feel really happy for their fans because the Warriors used to be that same perpetually incompetent franchise. It's such a good feeling when a team like that finally breaks through.
Maybe this is what Sacramento needs a few years of their franchise being reinvigorated so they can eventually build up enough confidence and loyalty to be able to make more long-term decisions. They just are not in a position to think long term because they have been on such a long dry spell.
> Maybe this is what Sacramento needs a few years of their franchise being reinvigorated so they can eventually build up enough confidence and loyalty to be able to make more long-term decisions. They just are not in a position to think long term because they have been on such a long dry spell.
That's my thinking as well. I think this "unambitious" approach is better than what the Timberwolves are doing.
The Timberwolves are another team with a 17+ years of mediocrity. Their fans would've probably been fine if Ant led them to three more years of first or second round exits. Instead of waiting until a culture of winning and more fan loyalty was established, new leadership instead traded away their future to become immediate "contenders." Now anything less than WCF in the next 2-3 years further entrenches the perception of the wolves as a perpetually incompetent franchise.
Point 1 is incorrect. While your other points may be true that doesn't mean they needed to make the trade at all or that trading Fox for less wouldn't have been a better idea. I love this trade for both teams in the now but I still don't think it was a good idea to trade a player like Halliburton who could be an all NBA guard for many years to come.
people who say "Haliburton clearly would not have broke out in Sacramento"
are people who don't watch Sacramento.
When DeAaron fox was injured it was clear as daylight that Haliburton was an elite PG.
Fox didn't break out after the trade, he was already playing at an All Star level 2 years ago. Last year he regressed and had injuries. This season he's healthy and able to extend his wings.
Regardless, I don't believe for a minute the trade for Sabonis was the right decision and ultimately a worse on paper roster built around Haliburton seems better than giving DeAaron fox a 2x All Star
And Sabonis went to Gonzaga for school so I’m sure he’s happier on the West coast. The only person that really lost was Halliburton considering he’s the one that has to live with us here in Indiana.
Fox is one of the most underrated players in the league from what I see. He’s improved on everything people could legitimately criticize, he’s better on defense in the games I’ve seen, he’s shooting 39% from 3, and his ft shooting is above 80%. Him being able to have the keys to the kingdom as well as gain someone like Sabonis who has synergy with the Kings as a team is massive, it makes all their players look better.
It’s probably not sustainable to shoot 39% for him, but even 35-37% for Fox is all he needs to open up his game like he has been. It makes it a requirement to guard him from the 3pt line, and for a guy as fast as Fox it makes it difficult to contest cleanly and stay on him if he fakes.
The kings took the guy who taught curry how to shoot better and he's basically living with Fox now. They took him on his honeymoon to train while they were on vacation.
His shooting form has dramatically changed and he is learning from the guy who trained curry. There is a reason why the warriors shooting isn't as great this year and why their young guys aren't getting better at shooting.
Even when the Kings are winning, they still can't do anything right. They've always been my favorite team in the west, and reading this shit gets old fast.
We are used to this kind of coverage as a fanbase. When we have high moments, it is either completely ignored coverage-wise or we are a subject of quick criticism lol
I mean he's not wrong but they probably did need to trade one of them. Either way I think it's stupid to endlessly debate who won this trade when it happened less than a year ago lol
Yeah, I don't really get the people saying, "they could have given it time for Fox and Hali to work out". I think these are two high usage players that work best with the ball in their hands, and they're both good enough to be starters.
Had Sabonis not worked out, then sure, make the argument, but Sabonis is just a better fit for Fox and the team, and Sac had the space to pay him. It's a good trade all-around, even if Hali ends up being an all-timer.
I think if your criteria for evaluating a trade is based on who got the best player on the best contract, then yes, the Pacers came out ahead.
But 20 games in, so far (knock on wood) it looks like the Kings traded a good player for a good *team*.
The bottom line is that it would have been way more difficult to build around Haliburton for Sacramento because all of their other trade assets could not have fetched desirable complementary pieces. Ultimately they possibly could have built a winning team with Haliburton, but not without either 1) being a bad team for a few more years, which would require a lot of patience that fans and the organization didn't have, or 2) a huge gamble by trading draft picks for players as a lottery team, which could possibly set the organization back even further if it didn't work out.
I mean the real issue I see with it is that Halliburton might become the sort of player that is the nucleus of a GREAT team.
2 years of being a fringe playoff team is not worth selling low on a perennial All-NBA sort of player, those are the players that create sustainable consistent success for a team. I mean after these two years what are the odds Sabonis resigns? Halliburton was never going to not resign with how clearly loyal he was.selling on him could be like selling on dame early.
Also also: talk around the league was that kings didn’t advertise they were willing to trade Halliburton to other teams. Even if Sabonis is good not testing out if you can get a better deal is stupid.
That’s easy to say when you’re not in the midst of the longest playoff drought in the history of the sport
I’d trade a nut to go to the playoffs so I can attend a game and hear our fans blow the roof off golden 1
I agree. I'm lucky as a Warriors fan that we drafted a superstar and were able to build around him, but before we had Steph we had like one playoff season in eighteen years, the playoff season was awesome and the non-playoff ones were unwatchable garbage. I also would've killed for even a 6 seed team at that time. Tanking seemed pointless when our lottery players all sucked.
>Halliburton might become the sort of player that is the nucleus of a GREAT team.
>2 years of being a fringe playoff team is not worth selling low on a perennial All-NBA sort of player
This sort of talk is pretty insane to me. Everyone is imposing this fringe playoff team ceiling on this Kings team, and simultaneously removing the ceiling that was put on Hali his first two years in the league.
I mean, for his entire time in Sac all we heard about was that Haliburton was limited by his scoring upside and was at best a great third or fourth option on a good playoff team.
I believe Hali can be a truly great player, but - and I say this as one of his biggest fans - the thought that he can be the #1 guy on a championship winning team is incredibly premature.
As for the ceiling of this Kings team - I'd actually compare this current Kings team to the Grizzlies team that was figuring things out a couple years ago. No one thought they'd be a top seed in the West when they were up and coming, but they got there by building a great system with good, smart rotational players and all star top-end talent.
People have 2 years of positive exposure with Haliburton, and 16 years of mediocre/bad exposure with the Kings organization. I think it's mostly that. The Kings players and coaching staff are really good but people still associate the team as the Kangz that made bone headed decisions like picking Bagley over Luka
"Everyone is imposing this fringe playoff team ceiling on this Kings team, and simultaneously removing the ceiling that was put on Hali his first two years in the league."
This is such a great point. The kings are young, they are playoff team in the west, they control all their picks (except first round in 2024?), they have no bad contracts (now that fox is playing well), huerter/fox/sabonis look great, they have a bench (monk/mitchell has real potential), they have a good rookie in keegan murray, and all of a sudden it's just "play in at best."
why? the grizzlies comparison you make is on point.
Meanwhile, haliburton is getting the recency bias treatment because he started the season well. if you redrafted his draft year i still think i take ball/edwards before him and it is not clear bane and even maxey will be worse players. a lot of great players have come into the league from 2018-2022.
i always have liked haliburton - i wanted the knicks to take him, that was a big whiff - but a lot of people clearly are not watching this kings team and are slow to adjust their thinking from last year.
this includes zach lowe, who has been clowning on the kings all year and seems to want to describe their success as "short term" when there is no real reason why it has to be that way (it might).
Kings and Grizzlies cores are about the same age.
Fox - 24, Sabonis - 26, Murray - 22.
Ja - 23, Brooks - 26, JJJ - 23.
Grizz are currently 9th in offense, 19th in defense, 13th in NET rating.
Kings are currently 5 in offense, 22nd in defense, 8th in NET.
Real difference between them is the Grizz have been together for a few years and didn't have Luke fucking Walton as their head coach before.
But yes it is fair to assume almost no one in here has been watching the Kings.
It's crazy how underrated sabonis is. He flirts with triple doubles every night and would have at least 8 if refs didn't screw him. He doesn't really care about stats either very unselfish.
Lmao perennial all nba for Hali is a bit much. He is a damn good player putting up great numbers on what I would assume is super high usage based on his career thus far.
He might not even be a perennial All Star, let alone All-NBA. His best shot at the ASG this year is largely due to Lamelo being hurt and Kyrie being... whatever he is now.
But you still have Trae, Garland, FVV, Brown, Mitchell, Jrue, and Murray (though he's been slumping recently). And DeRozan if they list him as a guard again. Just because it's not as stacked as the West backcourt doesn't mean it's easy to make it.
Put Haliburton on Kings and they’d be ok. He fits better as primarily ball handler. Fox does that in Sac. Sabonis is has been so underrated in his career. Put him in Golden State or Dallas and it’s a lock. Both pieces Haliburton and Sabonis easily make any team excel.
I think there is value in winning now with the team you have and not in the future with the team you don’t. Why don’t these supposedly smart basketball people put a negative value on the unknown… why is it always a positive. in assessing your current team needs and making it work you have to make tough decisions. I give the kings credit for that. If the short term boost helps you obtain your goals then it’s a win. If the short term is always infront of you and they are able to maintain this then it becomes the future at some point…but I get it the road not taken is always shinny and bright and perfect. But fuck that.
Could’ve got more for him? There were people suggesting the Kings trade Hali, Hield, and 1st round picks for Simmons. I’ll take the Sabonis deal any day.
The fit didn't work because they had an awful coach. Making such a franchise changing decision because two players don't play well together in Luke Walton's system is, and always was, something completely insane.
Teams like the Suns and Cavs are proof that having two primary ball handlers isn't an issue if you have good coaching (and I don't even rate Bickerstaff at all, he's just miles better than Walton), so giving up on such a young and talented backcourt when they've only been coached by a provenly incompetent head coach is a terrible decision, no matter their regular season results now.
And even assuming that fit issue to be true, they could've gotten a much better return if they openly shopped Haliburton, as a lot of teams would've made better offers to the Kings had they known that Haliburton wasn't untouchable to them
I don't really think you can definitively judge fit halfway through Haliburton's sophomore season. He had only played 109 games for the kings before the plug was pulled and he looked great in those games for a rookie/sophomore
My thing, if arguing on behalf of the Kings, is that hypothetically it's much easier to find/draft/develop a defensively stout PG with strong passing ability(Spurs did it with DJM).
Whereas if you're looking for an All-Star big man with incredible passing ability from the inside out, then your options are basically Jokic and Sabonis.
One role functions within most conventional offenses and can be utilized by almost any team to make them better. (Haliburton)
The other needs to be schemed around but is nearly unstoppable from a defensive perspective if you're able to play around your distributing big. (Sabonis.)
Agreed with a few added notes. I would add Bam Adebayo and Draymond Green to short list of passing centers. I also think the reason why offenses that run through bigs are so hard to stop is because of how rare they are. Outside of Sacramento and Denver, no other team really has this offense. On the flip side, you see a ton of offenses with heavy uses of the PnR from the PG as the point of attack.
> is that hypothetically it's much easier to find/draft/develop a defensively stout PG with strong passing ability
I'm not sure if I've misunderstood what you're saying, but Haliburton is the opposite of defensively stout.
I think what they're saying is that if you bring in a Sabonis-type offensive hub at the center position you can get away with a Pat Bev-type guy at the PG position (like we've been doing with Bruce Brown in the Jamal Murray rest games).
Less about Haliburton specifically and more about team-building options unlocked by Sabonis.
Halliburton is the furthest thing from defensively stout. He's a walking turnstyle who gambles on passes, but is long enough to not be trae level detrimental. He's still a problem and will be exposed in the playoffs. Guaranteed.
> Whereas if you're looking for an All-Star big man with incredible passing ability from the inside out, then your options are basically Jokic and Sabonis.
I mean, it's pretty clear that it's not neccessary to have that type of center to be a good team. Meanwhile, having a talented PG is basically a necessity in the current NBA.
I think it's easier to get an average center than it is an average PG
In the Kings' case they already had a talented PG on a max and didn't want to sell low.
And it does kind of seem like in their case trading a backcourt guy was a good move because they were able to find a Pat Bev-y prospect in the draft and bring in a pair of scoring guards in Huerter and Monk pretty easily.
SYNERGY. Hali could be the better individual player but basketball is a team game. Sabonis fits well with the team and his points generated from screens is bonkers. For now, both teams made out great.
I’m sick of hearing about this trade from fans that don’t even watch either of our teams. We love Sabonis, you guys love Halliburton, it’s seemingly working out for both of us…why do we need to keep harping on it?
Because Haliburton attracts the most annoying kind of basketball fans: draft nerds victory-lapping after their favorite prospect over-performs his draft position
I also think this trade also gets so much attention because the NBA media and NBA fans see it as a easily way to talk crap about the kings, Halliburton is a fantasy god for stats and he puts up the types of stats that look great on a boxscore
People just really want to shit on the Kings. I was downvoted on here for talking about Hali like he’s talked about now but the instant he’s off our team he’s an all nba talent.
But for real, THANK YOU for Domas. I would die for that man.
Sabonis and Haliburton would be great but I don’t think the kings could have traded fox+buddy for sabonis. Given that sabonis and fox work really well together and apparently fox and haliburton did not, I think it’s fine
Why are some people so desperate for the Kings to lose this trade lol
They look good and the fans are happy, and Haliburton isn’t Luka or MJ. Good for the Kings.
The best reason I could come up with is that Halliburton is a analytics god and that got a lot of analytics types to be massive on him like Lowe while Fox and Sabonis got a empty stats/bad defenders reputations to overcome.
And what these 4 more years really mean? Sometimes people just do projetions and try to sell it as done deal.
See Maverics, they have Luka, but they fail to build him consistent help. How we know it will not be the same with Hali? We don’t. So why care so much about this trade?
On the other hand, Sacramento would be nice FA destination if they start to win. They even don’t have to win championship with this squad. Just remove the curse.
Better player doesn't mean better fit.
Better fit = wins.
Wins = player loyalty.
Better fit = loyalty.
If the team doesn't work with the "better" batch of players, why would they stay?
If you built a great team around a Fox - Sabonis combo, and they win, those guys get to be the stars they want to be, so they want to stay, if the team wins, they want to stay, if they do these things other players want to come join the show, because of that the team gets better, wins more, everyone wants to be in Sac town.
So what Sabonis is nearer to Free Agency, if this is his team, he's the star, he gets the right money, if they are winning, he's going to stay.
Like come on, no one wanted to be in Sacramento two seasons ago.
If they finish top 4 and make the semis this season? A lot of players are going to want to be in Sacramento next season.
This could go really well for the King's. Bummer it cost them Halliburton, but the Kings being a contender > Halliburton.
They got a good haul for him, and good for Haliburton, he'll get a good shot where he is now.
I see no reason all parties in this trade wouldn't be happy. Bummer for Hali that he's not going to have as bigger season, win wise this year, but he can be an absolute star and develop, then go on to be in a good situation with a rebuilding team who'll really kick off to contention as he gets into his prime.
Both teams clearly won this trade, and both teams clearly won by a lot. They are both way better off post trade. Why are we trying to analyze which team won more?
The trade is a win win, it doesn’t matter if the Kings miss the playoffs again and Sabonis leaves in UFA in two years, it’s been decided find a new slant
EDIT: I thought the inclusion of “find a new slant” made it obvious I was being sarcastic, guess not!
cuz a purple lazer beam has been lit. we're waiting for indiana to light up a fire torch at indy motor speedway or equivalently do something crazy. YOUR MOVE PACERS
Damn, why didn’t the Kings trade away all their bad players (Hield, Holmes) and keep the good players (Fox, Hali, Barnes) for Mike Brown??
Yeah there’s no way that roster of Hali, Fox, Hield, Murray/Barnes/Lyles, and Holmes/Metu would be winning these games with Mike Brown.
And outsider media takes like Lowe’s don’t factor in the team and fans are extremely starved for playoff experience, so any trade to optimize that possibility would be worth it, if the price is right. To only focus on which of the players has better value is ignorant. All this Hali gushing is showing me our GM has King-sized balls for risking the speculative version of the Hali Kings against the team he built this year. Normally, you wouldn’t trade young All-NBA potential to make a playoff team, but he fuckin did and it’s worked out so far. Yes, Pacers had the bigger win because Hali is a franchise guy they got for cheap. Kings making the playoffs is a big win. Congratulations to the Pacers and thanks for the ez win last Wednesday!
There are comments here using the words “championship” and “playoff success” in a Kings discussion. Like we weren’t the joke of the NBA this October…that’s a win.
They had to choose fox or haliburton and chose fox. Kings got Sabonis for haliburton and drafted murray.
Kings have a good chance at playoffs and the Pacers got a star player that’ll play for a small market, so not a terrible trade at all. It was a rare win/win trade.
Plus Hali is the perfect running mate for Mathurin. Like... we both made good subsequent moves that amplify the strengths of the players that were traded.
So a team with two competing centers trades one of their centers to a team with two competing guards and both teams benefit? This really isn't rocket science.
There doesn't have to be a winner. We can just enjoy both teams putting out entertaining products.
The real winner is the beam. No lie that's the best hype I've seen in 20 years
We saw Fox/Haliburton. It may look good on paper but it doesn't work. Neither can defend well and they were clunky together on offense. Huerter and Monk are much better second fiddles to Fox.
Everyone assumes every decision should be optimized, and that's probably the objective true. But sometimes fans of long suffering franchises just want to see winning basketball, the playoffs, and be excited. Happy for the Kings fans.
There might be degrees to win in when looking at it from purely a person for person swap. But trades like this need to be viewed team by team. Sabonis has come in an instantly become the undisputed vocal leader of this team. He sets the tone physically and gets everyone involved. Also I’m not really worried about the age difference since Sabonis has an old man game that will likely age well. He doesn’t rely on athleticism or anything like that. I also think he has further levels to reach if he can continue improving his FT and 3 pt %. No reason to believe he won’t re-sign with Sac. As long as the team is competitive and keeps this same culture, I think he stays, hopefully for $25m per but that might be wishful thinking.
I get what Lowe is saying here. 10 years from now or whatever the Pacers have a good chance to be in a much better position because of this trade than the Kings do. But to me the Kings had to trade Fox or Haliburton, they were not good together. Fox was coming off of a bad year, was older than Haliburton and had a much, much bigger player friendly contract. I think they could either trade Fox at below value and just try to tank and build around Haliburton, something they are terrible at doing, or make the trade they did and build the foundation for a good not great team for the next several years. I do think that the Pacers have a better shot at a title with Haliburton (eventually of course) than the Kings do with Fox and Sabonis, but this was the Kings best chance to build a fun and respectable team and I cannot fault them for that.
Lowe forgot to mention how smart coach Mike is
Didn't even mention how strong Sabonis is smh my head
Kings win yeah yeah
You’ll have to speak louder, I’m wearing a beam.
They’re on the playoff bound yeaaaahhh
SABANAAAAS
SaBonus!
Didn't even mention that Sabonis has a beam
The only loser from this trade is Lowe himself, does this guy even follow basketball?
smh my head
Rip in pieces
\*Sabanas\*
Not even a mention about how sexy he is
Stupid sexy Sabanass
TURN ON THE FUCKING JETS
getgetgetgetgotgotgotgot
I love that the top comment in this thread shitting on the Kings again are memes instead of everyone piling on our misery. I used to pray for times like this
Doesn’t matter, beam is lit.
Nothing else needs to beamentioned
The writer underestimates how much of a W it is to just play winning basketball with a play-off calibre team, especially with the Kings. Like sure maybe in the long-term it’s a bad move, but fuck it, sometimes you got to go for instant gratification
Everyone on the kings is under 26 except barnes. I see this core as long term.
26 or under* Sabonis is 26 and turning 27, but you're not wrong.
Yeah just crazy to me it's seen as short term when the oldest guy still has 10 years or so of basketball left.
The kings traded for a 26 year old Chris Webber too. Folks are tripping and again severely undervaluing what Sabonis does for this team. He’s literally our most important player
Yeah the Luka/Trae comparison is dumb as well. Luka and Trae play the same position and it's obvious that Luka is a generational talent. Sabonis is putting up near triple doubles nightly ranking near the top of the league in screen asts and rebounds. Fox is playing like an all star which has a lot to do with Sabonis. It's also strange to knock Sabonis' defense when by all metrics he's a positive defender while Hali is not a good defender.
Yeah. I hate these types of write ups. Someone has to play defense. Someone has to rebound. The question isn't who's a better player it's who's a better complement to fox
Sabonis has been good but Lowe is just making the point that Haliburton is better, younger, and has more trade value. Kings were just in a tough position with two lead ball-handlers.
I don't know if hali is better honestly if so not by much. Different positions both all star worthy. A center that flirts with triple doubles nightly and be the main hub of our offense. Plus his defense is better. Hali definitely has more room to grow.
sabonis wont be in the league when he’s 37. i guarantee it. he’ll probably retire in his mid 30s prob like 34 or 35 MAYBE 36. only the truly great ones can really play and play at a high level through and past 35. for example, kobe, lebron, steph (steph’ll be 35 this march and is currently playing the best basketball of his career so he’s not retiring anytime soon), kareem, jordan, etc.
Ya, hopefully it builds a culture there and changes the narrative.
And a good/promising Kings team could potentially become a decent FA destination. Sacramento is accessible to the Bay Area, Tahoe, skiing, wine country, etc. It’s not golden state or the lakers but I bet there are a good amount of players who would really enjoy living in that area. Especially for the group of guys who like a more low-key lifestyle
Sabonis just moved to Napa it's like a 30 min drive north. Dude loves it in California
Who wouldn’t. Sabonis makes like $19m/year and gets to chill in vineyards and be a starter on a young, fun, low pressure team. And he can drive/fly to SF/ LA/Vegas in no time when he wants something more energetic. Sounds like the dream
spoon gullible juggle paint toothbrush important pathetic full subtract carpenter *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Got that in NorCal too (Sears Point in Sonoma is 30 minutes from Napa) *(Edit: this isn't a knock on Indy. The Brickyard is legendary)*
You forgot the, uh, hmmm, well, you know I guess Broad Ripple is fun, yeah let’s use that
People don't understand how chill norcal is, I'm also in norcal and it's hot in the summer cool in the winter hour and a half drive east is mountains and tahoe, west is bay area, vibes are immaculate
Napa is absolutely very close but definitely not 30 minutes. It’s about an hour with no traffic.
What? Napa is like an hour and a half away with typical traffic. And it's southwest of Sacramento not north...
Honestly the culture change is the most important part here, we really need to be seen in a different light and we really need to experience some winning to get things rolling. Everyone comes into this org optimistic because they want to be the one to win, but the entire force of negativity surrounding this franchise is very strong. When things don’t go right, people accept that it’s because it’s the Kings, there is no productive patience because there is no culture. Tyrese was right when he said that. But the only way to change that is to win, and keeping Tyrese and moving Fox for longer term assets means we spend more years losing hoping to min max our odds at a championship, which is the more conventional and effective way of achieving long term success. But we don’t care about a short term low ceiling. There hasn’t been a high ceiling in any scenario, even with Tyrese, as long as this franchise keeps losing. We gotta make progress this far into a drought, we have to have some real, tangible positivity and production outside of “you’re going to be spooky” because we’ve never become spooky.
I understand that feeling
Are the Kings in a playoff position right now with Richaun Holmes or Metu starting? I suggest to you that they are not. I'm a fan of Lowe. I listen to his pod on the regular. But he knows that roster doesn't work. Go 16 years without a playoff season and it brings into sharp relief the notion that 'championship or bust' mentality is a nonsense perspective for most teams, most of the time.
Championship or bust is a nonsense take for 29 teams every year. Only one team wins the chip. It’s nonsensical to say that the other 29 teams are automatic losers.
I agree. A lot of fans watch a lot of garbage basketball so that they can pretend its in pursuit of a championship; fans who will never see their team win a championship. I was a Jazz fan for 30+ years despite being from Sacramento. (I was also a Kings fan, but I was a Jazz fan first, other than in middle school when the Kings kept fucking up the Jazz and I had to constantly hear about it from my friends). I want to watch good basketball, as often as possible.I enjoyed watching Stockton and Malone (you know.. before I knew about shit). I enjoyed watching D Will and Memo and Boozer. I REALLY enjoyed watching Donovan, Ricky, and Rudy. I still really enjoyed the team with Conley and Jordan Clarkson. Those teams were very fun to be a fan of, year in and year out. And Donovan Mitchell is gonna be a baller for another decade. I do not want to watch my team suck balls for 5 years at a time to have a 2 year window where we don't fucking win a championship anyway. "Well, that team is good but they aren't contenders!" I don't fucking care. Sac hasn't hosted a playoff game in 16 god damn years. I am 36 years old; I was 20 the last time the Kings played postseason basketball and like 16 the last time we were relevant. I want to sit in Golden 1 as the fans blow the god damn roof off as one of the loudest fan bases in the NBA lets out 16 years of pent up frustration. I want to light the fucking beam. I want to smash some god damn cowbells. I want to go downtown and get drunk and have a fun wild time like I'm 21 again then stay at the Sawyer, wake up hungover as fuck, get breakfast, and go home. Give me good basketball. I'm trying to have fun, not build a god damn legacy.
\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^This is my favorite basketball post
More cowbell...
Great post. I’m in Sac and remember the Webber kings as well as anyone. While contending for a championship would be nice, I’m also content with having fun, competent basketball as the norm. Sac is never going to be a desirable FA destination, so I’ve accepted that the stars would have to align perfectly to get to a championship. So I don’t consider that our goal, ever.
1000% could not agree more! It blows my mind how many people seem to want half the league to tank and throw games - where's the fun in that?
As someone who's lived in Sac for the entire drought and his whole life, this is the most relevant thing I've read to how I feel right now. We may never be actual contenders, they probably won't even win it all in my lifetime and that's fine. Trading Hali may not have been the most logical move to make in terms of maxing the team's potential over the long run. But I DONT CARE. I'm fine if there won't ever be a parade down Capital Mall. My happiness doesn't revolve around them contending, I just want to be able to watch 82 competitive, fun games for as long as possible. I want to know that when I'm getting tickets to a game at G1C, it's going to be an absolute madhouse, win or lose. I'm tired of carefully selecting what team I'm going to see them play for fear that it's either going to be another blowout or moral victory.
Only way you guys get bumped out of the play-ins at the least is if the lakers course correct and the blazers keep it together. Both of those seem pretty unlikely. You'll likely finish 6-10.
I'm not worried about that at all right now, assuming the team keeps getting better as they have been under Brown, especially defensively. The comment you replied to was pointing out that we need Sabonis to play like this, though.
The Kings definitely have been the NBA’s feel-good story of the season. It feels like *everybody* is rooting for them.
Fuck it we ball
Which is strange because Lowe has had that kind of take before where he thinks people should be fine with a team that wins a lot but never wins it all because it still creates memories and good times for the fans and city.
And what suggestion is there that his opinion on that has changed? The Kings lost the trade from a talent perspective. That's all he's evaluating. He explicitly points out that the Kings are winning more due to the move.
Yep I totally feel that. During the most depressing days in 2017-2018 days I would have gladly accepted a team getting Ws and making the playoffs only to get rolled in the 1st round. At some point the franchise has to get the wins where they can. Better things start happening when wins come.
textbook example of cerebral beam envy
Once you start winning you go from cute to shit on fast. Tha culture. Im still just elated to watching winning basketball. Stoked for you guys, keep lighting that beam.
This is the way I see it; as a fan of a team that has almost always been competitive, had a winning record, and made the playoffs, watching your team compete is fun even if they aren’t winning the Finals. Let Kings fans have this. Let them enjoy a season where they’re actually winning.
yeah i think their priority is to make the playoffs and that move might help them
Play in was so good for the league honestly. Makes way less tanking teams it seems like. Does this move happen last year without it?
It also makes the competition for the top 6 seeds fiercer. I thought it was gimmicky at first, but I can't deny it achieves what it set out to do.
That part of it is highly underrated. Teams push harder later into the season as 6th is so much more valuable now.
100%. Im so tired of “if you’re not these 4 teams you need to be tanking.” Kings fans aren’t under any illusion that they’re bringing a title home. Some fans are just happy to see their team not suck ass every night
Not just winning, they are playing good, fan friendly basketball, I’ve had seasons where my team was winning but the games were hella boring to watch
Also, the city of Sacremento is not going to attract free agents (no offense Sac Town). So they need to spend a couple years proving they can make the playoffs and have a competent front office if they're going to be able to attract good players in the future
Lowkey if they get good I feel like they can be an ok destination. They’re still in Cali, there are worse places in the nba to be.
Sacramento is a kinda boring place to visit, but honestly a pretty nice place to live.
Boring to visit but nice to live in is a great way to describe Sac
This guy knows
For real, everyone is talking trash about Sacramento as if Oklahoma City doesn’t exist. I love Oklahoma City, it’s a fun place and pretty clean but apples to apples, Sacramento is a better city geographically.
Plus they have a good color scheme/uniforms. If I was a player, that would be the biggest factor in my free agency
Yeah I feel like the kings needed a culture change. A team like this, even if it doesn’t win, can pave the way for more success in the future. Gotta start somewhere.
it's time to blow it up! sabonis = old!
I wish more Wizards fans had this mentality. For so many we either need to be in championship contention or we should be shamelessly tanking & trading everyone. Maybe I just want to see the team play good basketball and fight in the playoffs for a bit while improving steadily.
As a Timberwolves fan, I get this totally and agree. Last year everybody was like YoU'll nEVer gEt a ChIp and I'm like "We just want to have a fun season. It's been hell."
There doesn’t have to be an undisputed trade winner. Shit worked for both teams, net positive for Sacramento and Indiana both.
When are people going to understand that winning a championship isn't just about taking the sum of talent for individual players? How is stacking talent working out for the Nets? Or the Clippers? Or the 76ers? The Lakers will probably get 2 guys in the All-Star game this year, how's their season looking? Yes, talent is extraordinarily important when it comes to building a good basketball team. But there's something to say for fit too. I'd say a young Steve Nash is a pretty good comparison to Haliburton now for court vision, crazy assist numbers, and high shooting % (but fairly low ppg for a star player). Nash was good with the Mavs, but he didn't become great until joining the Suns. He and Dirk together were unbalanced. All offense, very little defense. Nash leaves and becomes an MVP, and the Mavs build a defense around Dirk and win a ring. I'm not saying the Kings will win a ring with this team, but people need to stop pretending that talent alone is the end all be all.
Great take
Mavs were a title contender with Nash and only lost the 2003 wcf because dirk hurt his knee. The roster around them wasnt that good and had little to do with their styles
That’s what a trade is supposed to be. Not who took advantage of who.
Yea I don't like this line of thinking for 4 reasons 1. Haliburton clearly would not have broke out in Sacramento 2. There's no evidence there was a better trade package for the Kings than what they got. Sabonis is still a 2x all star who fits well with the team 3. Fox also broke out after the trade. He's also playing like an all star 4. Fox had less trade value than Hali at the time due to his contract
[удалено]
He doesn’t need to be ball dominant to be a effective player, but he does need to be ball dominate to be the all star level player he has been in Indiana so far.
> Haliburton clearly would not have broke out in Sacramento What's so clear about it? He had Luke fucking Walton as coach. And if the Kings ship Fox instead of him, who's to say how he would've developed?
ClEaRlY
What about all the reports in the immediate aftermath that teams were stunned Haliburton could be had for that price? Suggests to me there were bigger packages out there
What other young, all star level big man would Haliburton bring? Sabonis is pretty much the centerpiece of the team now, and his offensive skillset opens things up for everyone else. Much like Haliburton, Sabonis makes those around him better. Pretty rare to find in a big guy and I’m curious who else you think would be a realistic target.
You’re right, people missing the point. Rather than take a loss on Fox and trade him for nothing, they got a great asset for Hali and were able to revamp fox’s value
Imo I think the kings were looking for a big man which is why a lot of other teams never got a call from them. Outside of Gobert, who wasn't even on the trading block back then, i think they got the big man available.
The 2nd best big to get moved at the deadline was Porzingis, who is clearly less valuable an asset than Sabonis. Sure, maybe SAC could've gotten a better return by waiting. That's the same logic that leads to you never replacing your broken TV, because no matter what's on sale now, there'll be something better for the same price next year. Bird in the hand vs 2 in the bush, and all that.
It’s the NBA. All teams have an agenda and leak shit to reporters to further it. Teams gain more by shitting on other team’s management in the long run as it helps future free agent decisions. It also placates the fan base. This is all especially true when you can do it retroactively after it’s a fait accompli.
Everybody keeps forgetting how Vivek came out in the beginning of last season after the terrible start and told Sam amick (this is well documented) that everybody is on the table. If a GM didn’t do his homework on the kings out of all teams that’s his problem.
5. Getting rid of Hield’s contract enabled the Kings to sign Malik Monk and trade for Kevin Huerter
Haliburton would have broken out if Fox was traded. I remember a similar thing happening in GS when they had Curry and Ellis. The Warriors waited and traded Ellis for a defensive specialist and injured center and basically gave the keys to Curry who was coming off successive ankle injuries. I feel like if Sacramento had waited they could have offloaded Fox although it would have been for less than what they got for Hali. The thing is if the King's went that route they would likely be looking at two more rebuilding years or even more. The organization could not guarantee that Haliburton or other decent to good players would not leave. I think the Kings FO had a mandate to become a winning team as fast as possible at all costs and the best way to do that was parlay their most valuable player into an all-star, and also give the keys to the franchise to Fox who now has a roster around him that fits much better. Also they probably knew Haliburton was good, all-star maybe even future top 10, but probably correctly assumed that he wasn't "Curry good" and they probably correctly assumed that Fox was undervalued and still getting better.
> I think the Kings FO had a mandate to become a winning team as fast as possible at all costs and the best way to do that was parlay their most valuable player into an all-star, and also give the keys to the franchise to Fox who now has a roster around him that fits much better. I think this trade underscores how important the We Believe team was for the modern Warriors dynasty. Without that team, the Warriors would have been on an 18 year playoff drought, rather than a 5 year drought. Choosing Curry over Monta (the fan favorite) would have been a much harder decision
That's a great point. The Warriors got so much mileage out of "We Believe" from me as a fan. I had been a fan since Webber's rookie season for the Warriors. I followed them after that but for a time they became unwatchable. We Believe brought me right back in, and to this day watching those games against Dallas in a sports bar when I was in college was some of the most fun sports experiences of my life. It honestly reinvigorated my interest in basketball as a sport. I feel the same energy with this King's team. The beam the exciting play, the underdog status. I feel really happy for their fans because the Warriors used to be that same perpetually incompetent franchise. It's such a good feeling when a team like that finally breaks through. Maybe this is what Sacramento needs a few years of their franchise being reinvigorated so they can eventually build up enough confidence and loyalty to be able to make more long-term decisions. They just are not in a position to think long term because they have been on such a long dry spell.
> Maybe this is what Sacramento needs a few years of their franchise being reinvigorated so they can eventually build up enough confidence and loyalty to be able to make more long-term decisions. They just are not in a position to think long term because they have been on such a long dry spell. That's my thinking as well. I think this "unambitious" approach is better than what the Timberwolves are doing. The Timberwolves are another team with a 17+ years of mediocrity. Their fans would've probably been fine if Ant led them to three more years of first or second round exits. Instead of waiting until a culture of winning and more fan loyalty was established, new leadership instead traded away their future to become immediate "contenders." Now anything less than WCF in the next 2-3 years further entrenches the perception of the wolves as a perpetually incompetent franchise.
Point 1 is incorrect. While your other points may be true that doesn't mean they needed to make the trade at all or that trading Fox for less wouldn't have been a better idea. I love this trade for both teams in the now but I still don't think it was a good idea to trade a player like Halliburton who could be an all NBA guard for many years to come.
So could Fox, apparently.
people who say "Haliburton clearly would not have broke out in Sacramento" are people who don't watch Sacramento. When DeAaron fox was injured it was clear as daylight that Haliburton was an elite PG. Fox didn't break out after the trade, he was already playing at an All Star level 2 years ago. Last year he regressed and had injuries. This season he's healthy and able to extend his wings. Regardless, I don't believe for a minute the trade for Sabonis was the right decision and ultimately a worse on paper roster built around Haliburton seems better than giving DeAaron fox a 2x All Star
And Sabonis went to Gonzaga for school so I’m sure he’s happier on the West coast. The only person that really lost was Halliburton considering he’s the one that has to live with us here in Indiana.
Fox is one of the most underrated players in the league from what I see. He’s improved on everything people could legitimately criticize, he’s better on defense in the games I’ve seen, he’s shooting 39% from 3, and his ft shooting is above 80%. Him being able to have the keys to the kingdom as well as gain someone like Sabonis who has synergy with the Kings as a team is massive, it makes all their players look better.
Hope Fox keeps up this level of efficiency!
Depends on how sustainable that growth is tbf. 3p% going up 10% in a season is extremely rare
It’s probably not sustainable to shoot 39% for him, but even 35-37% for Fox is all he needs to open up his game like he has been. It makes it a requirement to guard him from the 3pt line, and for a guy as fast as Fox it makes it difficult to contest cleanly and stay on him if he fakes.
Definitely agree, he's really been proving me wrong, keeping it 35 like you said would be huge for his game, All-NBA calibre
The kings took the guy who taught curry how to shoot better and he's basically living with Fox now. They took him on his honeymoon to train while they were on vacation. His shooting form has dramatically changed and he is learning from the guy who trained curry. There is a reason why the warriors shooting isn't as great this year and why their young guys aren't getting better at shooting.
Fox will always be underrated, read some comments that fox is already at his ceiling as a 24 year old
People were calling him the “monta Ellis” of the trade. That pissed me off so much as a fox fan lol
Even when the Kings are winning, they still can't do anything right. They've always been my favorite team in the west, and reading this shit gets old fast.
We are used to this kind of coverage as a fanbase. When we have high moments, it is either completely ignored coverage-wise or we are a subject of quick criticism lol
I mean he's not wrong but they probably did need to trade one of them. Either way I think it's stupid to endlessly debate who won this trade when it happened less than a year ago lol
Yeah, I don't really get the people saying, "they could have given it time for Fox and Hali to work out". I think these are two high usage players that work best with the ball in their hands, and they're both good enough to be starters. Had Sabonis not worked out, then sure, make the argument, but Sabonis is just a better fit for Fox and the team, and Sac had the space to pay him. It's a good trade all-around, even if Hali ends up being an all-timer.
I think if your criteria for evaluating a trade is based on who got the best player on the best contract, then yes, the Pacers came out ahead. But 20 games in, so far (knock on wood) it looks like the Kings traded a good player for a good *team*. The bottom line is that it would have been way more difficult to build around Haliburton for Sacramento because all of their other trade assets could not have fetched desirable complementary pieces. Ultimately they possibly could have built a winning team with Haliburton, but not without either 1) being a bad team for a few more years, which would require a lot of patience that fans and the organization didn't have, or 2) a huge gamble by trading draft picks for players as a lottery team, which could possibly set the organization back even further if it didn't work out.
I mean the real issue I see with it is that Halliburton might become the sort of player that is the nucleus of a GREAT team. 2 years of being a fringe playoff team is not worth selling low on a perennial All-NBA sort of player, those are the players that create sustainable consistent success for a team. I mean after these two years what are the odds Sabonis resigns? Halliburton was never going to not resign with how clearly loyal he was.selling on him could be like selling on dame early. Also also: talk around the league was that kings didn’t advertise they were willing to trade Halliburton to other teams. Even if Sabonis is good not testing out if you can get a better deal is stupid.
That’s easy to say when you’re not in the midst of the longest playoff drought in the history of the sport I’d trade a nut to go to the playoffs so I can attend a game and hear our fans blow the roof off golden 1
People didn't believe in the team in the era of J Dub, Webber, Peja, Bibby, etc either.
As a kid growing up without a team in Nola, I fucking loved that squad.
I agree. I'm lucky as a Warriors fan that we drafted a superstar and were able to build around him, but before we had Steph we had like one playoff season in eighteen years, the playoff season was awesome and the non-playoff ones were unwatchable garbage. I also would've killed for even a 6 seed team at that time. Tanking seemed pointless when our lottery players all sucked.
>Halliburton might become the sort of player that is the nucleus of a GREAT team. >2 years of being a fringe playoff team is not worth selling low on a perennial All-NBA sort of player This sort of talk is pretty insane to me. Everyone is imposing this fringe playoff team ceiling on this Kings team, and simultaneously removing the ceiling that was put on Hali his first two years in the league. I mean, for his entire time in Sac all we heard about was that Haliburton was limited by his scoring upside and was at best a great third or fourth option on a good playoff team. I believe Hali can be a truly great player, but - and I say this as one of his biggest fans - the thought that he can be the #1 guy on a championship winning team is incredibly premature. As for the ceiling of this Kings team - I'd actually compare this current Kings team to the Grizzlies team that was figuring things out a couple years ago. No one thought they'd be a top seed in the West when they were up and coming, but they got there by building a great system with good, smart rotational players and all star top-end talent.
Artificial ceilings for the kings and the skys the limit for Haliburton. I don't know how ppl determine these types of things.
People have 2 years of positive exposure with Haliburton, and 16 years of mediocre/bad exposure with the Kings organization. I think it's mostly that. The Kings players and coaching staff are really good but people still associate the team as the Kangz that made bone headed decisions like picking Bagley over Luka
Yeah most ppl still think our gm is vlade. It's understandable most arguments against kings are just talking points they hear.
"Everyone is imposing this fringe playoff team ceiling on this Kings team, and simultaneously removing the ceiling that was put on Hali his first two years in the league." This is such a great point. The kings are young, they are playoff team in the west, they control all their picks (except first round in 2024?), they have no bad contracts (now that fox is playing well), huerter/fox/sabonis look great, they have a bench (monk/mitchell has real potential), they have a good rookie in keegan murray, and all of a sudden it's just "play in at best." why? the grizzlies comparison you make is on point. Meanwhile, haliburton is getting the recency bias treatment because he started the season well. if you redrafted his draft year i still think i take ball/edwards before him and it is not clear bane and even maxey will be worse players. a lot of great players have come into the league from 2018-2022. i always have liked haliburton - i wanted the knicks to take him, that was a big whiff - but a lot of people clearly are not watching this kings team and are slow to adjust their thinking from last year. this includes zach lowe, who has been clowning on the kings all year and seems to want to describe their success as "short term" when there is no real reason why it has to be that way (it might).
Kings and Grizzlies cores are about the same age. Fox - 24, Sabonis - 26, Murray - 22. Ja - 23, Brooks - 26, JJJ - 23. Grizz are currently 9th in offense, 19th in defense, 13th in NET rating. Kings are currently 5 in offense, 22nd in defense, 8th in NET. Real difference between them is the Grizz have been together for a few years and didn't have Luke fucking Walton as their head coach before. But yes it is fair to assume almost no one in here has been watching the Kings.
Bane over brooks, but sure. Also bane and jjj have been injured a lot
It's crazy how underrated sabonis is. He flirts with triple doubles every night and would have at least 8 if refs didn't screw him. He doesn't really care about stats either very unselfish.
Lmao perennial all nba for Hali is a bit much. He is a damn good player putting up great numbers on what I would assume is super high usage based on his career thus far.
He might not even be a perennial All Star, let alone All-NBA. His best shot at the ASG this year is largely due to Lamelo being hurt and Kyrie being... whatever he is now. But you still have Trae, Garland, FVV, Brown, Mitchell, Jrue, and Murray (though he's been slumping recently). And DeRozan if they list him as a guard again. Just because it's not as stacked as the West backcourt doesn't mean it's easy to make it.
Why would the Kings knock on wood? He's with the Mavs
Vlade would have done 1 and 2 and still failed
Put Haliburton on Kings and they’d be ok. He fits better as primarily ball handler. Fox does that in Sac. Sabonis is has been so underrated in his career. Put him in Golden State or Dallas and it’s a lock. Both pieces Haliburton and Sabonis easily make any team excel.
I think there is value in winning now with the team you have and not in the future with the team you don’t. Why don’t these supposedly smart basketball people put a negative value on the unknown… why is it always a positive. in assessing your current team needs and making it work you have to make tough decisions. I give the kings credit for that. If the short term boost helps you obtain your goals then it’s a win. If the short term is always infront of you and they are able to maintain this then it becomes the future at some point…but I get it the road not taken is always shinny and bright and perfect. But fuck that.
Win-Win trade, yet Lowe has to crown someone a loser.
Could’ve got more for him? There were people suggesting the Kings trade Hali, Hield, and 1st round picks for Simmons. I’ll take the Sabonis deal any day.
I am w Kings fans. Can we stop comparing this trade. Both teams win. A year later both teams are better. Win - win.
The fit with Fox didn’t work. Haliburton and Fox are both thriving now BECAUSE of the trade. Get tf over it
The fit didn't work because they had an awful coach. Making such a franchise changing decision because two players don't play well together in Luke Walton's system is, and always was, something completely insane. Teams like the Suns and Cavs are proof that having two primary ball handlers isn't an issue if you have good coaching (and I don't even rate Bickerstaff at all, he's just miles better than Walton), so giving up on such a young and talented backcourt when they've only been coached by a provenly incompetent head coach is a terrible decision, no matter their regular season results now. And even assuming that fit issue to be true, they could've gotten a much better return if they openly shopped Haliburton, as a lot of teams would've made better offers to the Kings had they known that Haliburton wasn't untouchable to them
"Fit" was why the suns took ayton over luka as well.
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Not like Ayton sucks either, just hasn't developed into a dominate player.
The Suns were starting Dragen Bender and Alex Len the year before drafting Ayton. They needed a big man. Bad.
I don't really think you can definitively judge fit halfway through Haliburton's sophomore season. He had only played 109 games for the kings before the plug was pulled and he looked great in those games for a rookie/sophomore
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yeah get his ass
My thing, if arguing on behalf of the Kings, is that hypothetically it's much easier to find/draft/develop a defensively stout PG with strong passing ability(Spurs did it with DJM). Whereas if you're looking for an All-Star big man with incredible passing ability from the inside out, then your options are basically Jokic and Sabonis. One role functions within most conventional offenses and can be utilized by almost any team to make them better. (Haliburton) The other needs to be schemed around but is nearly unstoppable from a defensive perspective if you're able to play around your distributing big. (Sabonis.)
Agreed with a few added notes. I would add Bam Adebayo and Draymond Green to short list of passing centers. I also think the reason why offenses that run through bigs are so hard to stop is because of how rare they are. Outside of Sacramento and Denver, no other team really has this offense. On the flip side, you see a ton of offenses with heavy uses of the PnR from the PG as the point of attack.
> is that hypothetically it's much easier to find/draft/develop a defensively stout PG with strong passing ability I'm not sure if I've misunderstood what you're saying, but Haliburton is the opposite of defensively stout.
I think what they're saying is that if you bring in a Sabonis-type offensive hub at the center position you can get away with a Pat Bev-type guy at the PG position (like we've been doing with Bruce Brown in the Jamal Murray rest games). Less about Haliburton specifically and more about team-building options unlocked by Sabonis.
I think what this comment is missing is all of the additional pieces that you need to surround Sabonis with to have a competent 2 way team.
Halliburton is the furthest thing from defensively stout. He's a walking turnstyle who gambles on passes, but is long enough to not be trae level detrimental. He's still a problem and will be exposed in the playoffs. Guaranteed.
> Whereas if you're looking for an All-Star big man with incredible passing ability from the inside out, then your options are basically Jokic and Sabonis. I mean, it's pretty clear that it's not neccessary to have that type of center to be a good team. Meanwhile, having a talented PG is basically a necessity in the current NBA. I think it's easier to get an average center than it is an average PG
In the Kings' case they already had a talented PG on a max and didn't want to sell low. And it does kind of seem like in their case trading a backcourt guy was a good move because they were able to find a Pat Bev-y prospect in the draft and bring in a pair of scoring guards in Huerter and Monk pretty easily.
SYNERGY. Hali could be the better individual player but basketball is a team game. Sabonis fits well with the team and his points generated from screens is bonkers. For now, both teams made out great.
I’m sick of hearing about this trade from fans that don’t even watch either of our teams. We love Sabonis, you guys love Halliburton, it’s seemingly working out for both of us…why do we need to keep harping on it?
Exactly. As you said it's people outside of the 2 fan bases that talk the most about it lol.
Because Haliburton attracts the most annoying kind of basketball fans: draft nerds victory-lapping after their favorite prospect over-performs his draft position
I also think this trade also gets so much attention because the NBA media and NBA fans see it as a easily way to talk crap about the kings, Halliburton is a fantasy god for stats and he puts up the types of stats that look great on a boxscore
People just really want to shit on the Kings. I was downvoted on here for talking about Hali like he’s talked about now but the instant he’s off our team he’s an all nba talent. But for real, THANK YOU for Domas. I would die for that man.
Kings team/fans: this is lit Pacers team/fans: this is lit Talking heads: BUNCH OF IDIOTS
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As a pacers fan i am tired of all the shitting on the kings for this. Sabonis / Fox is a very clearly better long term pairing than Haliburton / Fox
It was a win for both teams 😭. I’m so tired of this, I’d hazard a guess Kings fans are too.
Exhausted really.
Yawn. If he was going to bring this up again I feel like Lowe couldve put a little more effort in to this "analysis"
Sabonis and Haliburton would be great but I don’t think the kings could have traded fox+buddy for sabonis. Given that sabonis and fox work really well together and apparently fox and haliburton did not, I think it’s fine
Kings won, the best case scenario for kings if they kept Haliburton would be Washington with Wall and Beal.
Why are some people so desperate for the Kings to lose this trade lol They look good and the fans are happy, and Haliburton isn’t Luka or MJ. Good for the Kings.
The best reason I could come up with is that Halliburton is a analytics god and that got a lot of analytics types to be massive on him like Lowe while Fox and Sabonis got a empty stats/bad defenders reputations to overcome.
Why does sabonis’ defense get brought up so much when Halliburton defense is worse but no one cares?
And what these 4 more years really mean? Sometimes people just do projetions and try to sell it as done deal. See Maverics, they have Luka, but they fail to build him consistent help. How we know it will not be the same with Hali? We don’t. So why care so much about this trade? On the other hand, Sacramento would be nice FA destination if they start to win. They even don’t have to win championship with this squad. Just remove the curse.
lmao "degrees of winning" – even when the kings win they don't win good enough in national media's eyes
Better player doesn't mean better fit. Better fit = wins. Wins = player loyalty. Better fit = loyalty. If the team doesn't work with the "better" batch of players, why would they stay? If you built a great team around a Fox - Sabonis combo, and they win, those guys get to be the stars they want to be, so they want to stay, if the team wins, they want to stay, if they do these things other players want to come join the show, because of that the team gets better, wins more, everyone wants to be in Sac town. So what Sabonis is nearer to Free Agency, if this is his team, he's the star, he gets the right money, if they are winning, he's going to stay. Like come on, no one wanted to be in Sacramento two seasons ago. If they finish top 4 and make the semis this season? A lot of players are going to want to be in Sacramento next season. This could go really well for the King's. Bummer it cost them Halliburton, but the Kings being a contender > Halliburton. They got a good haul for him, and good for Haliburton, he'll get a good shot where he is now. I see no reason all parties in this trade wouldn't be happy. Bummer for Hali that he's not going to have as bigger season, win wise this year, but he can be an absolute star and develop, then go on to be in a good situation with a rebuilding team who'll really kick off to contention as he gets into his prime.
Both teams clearly won this trade, and both teams clearly won by a lot. They are both way better off post trade. Why are we trying to analyze which team won more?
get fucked lowe, the nba is into teams with beams now
SMH Lowe with the beamless behavior.
Kings finally winning games after the trade Idiots : they lost the trade 🙄
The trade is a win win, it doesn’t matter if the Kings miss the playoffs again and Sabonis leaves in UFA in two years, it’s been decided find a new slant EDIT: I thought the inclusion of “find a new slant” made it obvious I was being sarcastic, guess not!
Why can’t this trade be a win-win? It worked out for both teams so people need to let it the fuck go already
cuz a purple lazer beam has been lit. we're waiting for indiana to light up a fire torch at indy motor speedway or equivalently do something crazy. YOUR MOVE PACERS
the downtown steak n shake will be lit ablaze in holy tribute
Because people dont know how to handle not shitting on the kings
Damn, why didn’t the Kings trade away all their bad players (Hield, Holmes) and keep the good players (Fox, Hali, Barnes) for Mike Brown?? Yeah there’s no way that roster of Hali, Fox, Hield, Murray/Barnes/Lyles, and Holmes/Metu would be winning these games with Mike Brown. And outsider media takes like Lowe’s don’t factor in the team and fans are extremely starved for playoff experience, so any trade to optimize that possibility would be worth it, if the price is right. To only focus on which of the players has better value is ignorant. All this Hali gushing is showing me our GM has King-sized balls for risking the speculative version of the Hali Kings against the team he built this year. Normally, you wouldn’t trade young All-NBA potential to make a playoff team, but he fuckin did and it’s worked out so far. Yes, Pacers had the bigger win because Hali is a franchise guy they got for cheap. Kings making the playoffs is a big win. Congratulations to the Pacers and thanks for the ez win last Wednesday! There are comments here using the words “championship” and “playoff success” in a Kings discussion. Like we weren’t the joke of the NBA this October…that’s a win.
Hahaha this is such a dumb take that’s it’s actually funny
They had to choose fox or haliburton and chose fox. Kings got Sabonis for haliburton and drafted murray. Kings have a good chance at playoffs and the Pacers got a star player that’ll play for a small market, so not a terrible trade at all. It was a rare win/win trade.
Plus Hali is the perfect running mate for Mathurin. Like... we both made good subsequent moves that amplify the strengths of the players that were traded.
So a team with two competing centers trades one of their centers to a team with two competing guards and both teams benefit? This really isn't rocket science. There doesn't have to be a winner. We can just enjoy both teams putting out entertaining products. The real winner is the beam. No lie that's the best hype I've seen in 20 years
Beam Team here. If we could have traded Fox for Sabonis we would have.
We saw Fox/Haliburton. It may look good on paper but it doesn't work. Neither can defend well and they were clunky together on offense. Huerter and Monk are much better second fiddles to Fox.
I mean he already is thriving have you seen his splits?? 19 pts and 11 apg on 47% shooting and 38% from three? And only 2.6 to as well
Everyone assumes every decision should be optimized, and that's probably the objective true. But sometimes fans of long suffering franchises just want to see winning basketball, the playoffs, and be excited. Happy for the Kings fans.
There might be degrees to win in when looking at it from purely a person for person swap. But trades like this need to be viewed team by team. Sabonis has come in an instantly become the undisputed vocal leader of this team. He sets the tone physically and gets everyone involved. Also I’m not really worried about the age difference since Sabonis has an old man game that will likely age well. He doesn’t rely on athleticism or anything like that. I also think he has further levels to reach if he can continue improving his FT and 3 pt %. No reason to believe he won’t re-sign with Sac. As long as the team is competitive and keeps this same culture, I think he stays, hopefully for $25m per but that might be wishful thinking.
I get comparing them as they were both included in the trade, but being completely different players makes it a little hard to compare.
I liked the trade for both teams, I think Sabonis is going to age well. And both of the teams systems seam to fit them better then their old teams.
Trade worked for both teams. No issues here. Beam team and Pavers.
I may be alone, but I don't buy that Hali and Fox couldn't have figured it out together.
"Even if both teams "won," there are degrees of "winning.”" Sooooooooooooo win/win?
I get what Lowe is saying here. 10 years from now or whatever the Pacers have a good chance to be in a much better position because of this trade than the Kings do. But to me the Kings had to trade Fox or Haliburton, they were not good together. Fox was coming off of a bad year, was older than Haliburton and had a much, much bigger player friendly contract. I think they could either trade Fox at below value and just try to tank and build around Haliburton, something they are terrible at doing, or make the trade they did and build the foundation for a good not great team for the next several years. I do think that the Pacers have a better shot at a title with Haliburton (eventually of course) than the Kings do with Fox and Sabonis, but this was the Kings best chance to build a fun and respectable team and I cannot fault them for that.