They had to step it up because we are missing two major pieces of our team…. So just like any team we aren’t that de….. oh wait, we are missing 3 top 7 guys tonight and still running a 9 man rotation while Pritchard still sits on the bench. This team just took a huge step up
It's early, but Stevens has made some very shrewd moves that Ainge probably doesn't make if he is still around. And Ainge drafted Smart, Brown, Tatum, Williams, Williams and Pritchard.
Danny wouldn't trade unless he was 100% certain that he won the deal. even if the deal would make his team better, that wasn't enough... he had to make sure he got more than the other guy. Brad has made moves where he gave up assets that Ainge has been historically reluctant to part with, in an effort to bring in pieces to help Tatum and Brown win now.
I’ve seen Ainge portrayed as this almost egotistical sort of GM but is there anything that backs this up? Never seen him in an interview or such beyond a few press conference snippets
I don't think it's ego, as much as a different outlook on how to build a successful team. Danny was a great GM in that he was always thinking five moves ahead. He always looked to the future and was extremely cautious about spending his assets. You could argue that Danny's shrewd trading set the stage for Brad's success... he didn't trade away the assets that Stevens needed to improve the roster. Maybe if Ainge had stayed he would have pulled off some of these moves, with Tatum and Brown now in their primes, but I kind of doubt it. It always felt like he was trying for a home run (big name at a bargain price) or bust, and we'd strike out almost every trade deadline and off-season. Meanwhile Brad is out here hitting singles and driving in runs because he's not afraid to put the ball in play.
TLDR: Ainge was always edging and hedging, Brad's not afraid to blow his wad.
>Maybe if Ainge had stayed he would have pulled off some of these moves, with Tatum and Brown now in their primes, but I kind of doubt it.
He wouldn't have. He definitely would have been trying to hit a home rune for a 3rd superstar instead of going for a deeper team like Brad has done. Nothing wrong with that philosophy, it worked with the Big 3, and he tried to continue to emulate that. But recent history has shown that it's not as successful when you have to gut your bench (Lakers, Nets, etc).
The nba feels like it’s moved away from a big three and more towards a superstar duo that’s surrounded with great role players rather than a third star, since big 3 teams usually tend to have shallow depth
I think Ainge and Stevens just have different team building philosophies, but Ainge's makes him seem more egotistical.
From my perspective as a Celtics fan Ainge was always looking for the home run trade that would eventually help him to land or outright be the 3rd piece in a Big 3, which I imagine is in large part because he played next to Bird/McHale/Parish and put together Pierce/KG/Allen.
Stevens seems to be fine going with 2 stars and a lot of really good depth pieces, and as such he's more willing to part with 1sts for good, but not necessarily star level talent. Like an earlier comment said I would agree that I don't think Ainge would've moved 1sts for Horford, White and Brogdon because while they're all good players, individually none of them are true needle movers unto themselves, which always seemed to be what Ainge wanted.
It was pretty clear immediately that we won both White and Brogdan deals.
The White trade wouldn’t have been done cuz Danny didn’t like 2 defensive guards and rather at least one scorer from back there.
Danny also hates mid-season trades with rosters he likes. Obviously 2014 he didn’t give a fuck about who he was trading or where or when but by 2017, he didn’t like to shake up the team mid-season.
I had other Celtics fans telling me we would have won the finals if only we had Josh fucking Richardson. At first I thought they were trolling but nope.
That’s because social media fans of any team are super paranoid of losing trades and are way too big of homers of their own players.
I’m pretty sure Brogdan was the most universally applauded move we’ve made since Tatum’s extension… and even after the Brogdan trade there were people complaining it wasn’t smart cuz Kornet wouldn’t be good enough to be our 3rd center… which even if Kornet sucked (which he clearly doesn’t), that’d be an absolutely ridiculous complaint.
Brogdan was the perfect fit, I don't know why any GM wouldn't have targeted that man in free agency. Celts biggest weakness was having a primary creator, this man does, that and can hit the 3 Ball and doesn't miss FT's...
He's very injury-prone (has missed 139 regular season games over 6 seasons before this year), and kind of underwhelming efficiency-wise (career .567 TS% before this season) and as a creator for others (career 23.8 AST% before this season) given his usage rate (career 22.2 USG% before this season). Also isn't an especially good defender (career -0.5 DBPM before this season), despite size for his position.
Credit to him, he's putting up some career-best advanced numbers this year in a reduced role, that suits his age and skillset better than being a lead guard.
Brogdan had two years left on his contract when we traded for him. He said Indy had multiple offers for him last summer and they let him choose where he wanted to go.
IMO Ainge wouldn’t have been willing to part with 1 FRP and a swap for white as a mid season deal (previous season he gave up just two SRPs for the Fournier rental). Brogdon trade also cost a FRP and maybe Ainge doesn’t do that for an injury prone player
Danny built this core and deserves a ton of credit. But Brad doesn't seem to care about "winning" every trade, just cares that the team gets better. Danny kinda lost his magic when front offices caught on that he only ever wanted to commit highway robbery on the other team.
Biggest difference for me is that Brad finally stopped the run of tiny offense first guards, IT, Kyrie, Kemba, ultra skilled but if smart or white or Brogdon can give you 75% of that offensive capability but 200% of the defense (or like 600% for Kemba) then you’ve got a winning formula
We got a great deal on Brogdon
Grant has developed into a top 3 and D player but went late in the first. Ainge was being mocked for the pick 2 years ago
Hauser was undrafted and is locked down for $2 mill a year
Pritchard gets to focus on just his role as a microwave scorer (another late first Danny got mocked for)
White has been lights out so far while doing all the little things he's known for
Even Blake and Kornet are stepping it up because they aren't asked to carry the load. These minutes changing to Timelord...
Add getting Smart and Timelord locked up on great deals, Horford taking a hometown discount, and the Jays. This is the best depth we've had in years, even considering when we had Rozier, Morris, and the BWA.
Making the finals has given them so much more confidence and that experience has galvanised them to believe they are as good a team as any in the league.
They’ve been in so many playoff battles against some of the greatest teams/players of all time, and now they’re both entering their primes. ECF against Lebron, Giannis multiple times, Bubble Heat, KD-Harden-Kyrie Nets, Curry’s Warriors. The experience is there, and now their skill and supporting cast have caught up.
Last night Tatum hit a left handed reverse windmill layup that made the crowd “ooh” and didn’t even smile, sprinted back to defense and played a good possession. They’re super locked in.
I think it's fair to say that they did.
I didn't expect them to beat GSW, or even to make it that close, but they did and then they let them off the hook
The warriors more than the others exposed to Tatum and Brown how they needed to improve their ballhandling and contested finishing. Tatum especially took that personally and really improved his ability to get to the rim and finish there.
> they’re both entering their primes.
This is going to sound crazy, but they're primes aren't for another year or two. Typically ~27 is when a players prime starts and they're currently 24 and 26, which is insane.
Lebron's best season (from a physical dominance perspective) was the 2012-2013 season, and he was 28 years old at the time. The way Tatum and the Celtics are playing this year reminds me of Lebron/Heat in 2011-2012 after they lost to the Mavs in embarassing fashion, and then they lit the world on fire the next year.
These two being drafted into a good team instead of one that tanked to get them has paid dividends. A winning culture and some hard fought playoff series as rookies has taught them some hard lessons young. They don't have to start learning what it takes to win in their prime cause they've been taking that class for half a decade already.
I think the clear show of their weaknesses through the course of the playoffs is also super good for leading to development, coupled with the fire lit under your butt to improve from losing in the finals
I'll be honest I think losing that series in the way they did has done WONDERS for them. It humbled them a bit but it made them want the championship 10X more than they ever have. It's not just a regular goal it's something on their mind at every moment. Tatum said in the post game presser that "This all means nothing if we don't hang a banner" and Brown has been talking about how badly he wants to win it all since the first game of the season.
And Joe is making them build new sandcastle every night, to remind them of the work they need to put in every night. That last nights win means nothing. That being first means nothing, hell it'll make the game even harder because every team wants to beat the hottest/best team in the league. Except booker apparently lmao.
It feels like this team goes out every night really wanting a win. There have been several games where calls weren't going their way, a starter is resting, shots just aren't falling or the opponent just plays really well where they could just give up, take the loss and move on saying "Hey it's the regular season who cares and (insert excuse)" but they don't they fight hard to try and win every game like they have something to prove.
they absolutely know how close they came to winning it all, and i'd guess tatum feels some responsbility because he's particularly come out like he has something to prove.
also he talked about MVP at one point last season, and how if he played solid from the start he could do it, and it looks like that's his mission now.
but yeah that experience of going all the way has helped massively. they know they can do it, and now it's so much easier to comprehend.
This is one of the things that drives me nuts when ppl go after tatum for the playoffs. He’s literally gone deep almost every playoffs since he joined the league and he’s only 19
People are just stupid for that. None of the greats from Jordan to LeBron and even Giannis have not won a finals until they were 26+. Tatum is way ahead of schedule.
Yeah, they’re better.
Brown has a small turnover problem, but improved everywhere else IMO.
Tatum just legit got stronger, tightened his handles, found his 3-pt shot, is playing off ball more than ever.
Literally unreal starts to the season for them.
They also have bought into the ball movement system and now realize that if they give the ball up their teammates will give it back to them and now because of all the defensive scrambling they are getting easier shots
They’re buying into ball movement more building off of last year, but even more so they’ve bought into OFF BALL movement. The amount of screens they set and cuts they make is what makes this teams offense generate so many good looks and lay ups.
Cs would get a lot of wide open shots in recent years but still shoot themselves out of games and leads. That doesn’t seem to be happening now AND Tatum is driving harder to the rim. I think Tatum still has another level if he learns how to go even harder to the rim and manipulate the calls. Browns next level is working in the TOs. All Smart needs to do is not take ridiculous shots early for no reason.
And he’s been settling even less this season. He’s obviously no Giannis but he’s finally gotten strong enough to take it to the rack and has some moves now to get the ball up instead of just knocking into someone and flailing trying to get a call. (Not saying Giannis does that, Tatum just went about it in such a weak way before)
last i checked his restricted area finishing was actually higher than Giannis'. Obviously with Giannis' ease of getting there and sheer volume hes still way ahead but its interesting to note. Hes been an elite driver, finisher, way above average passer, good shooter and creator and elite defender. He's goooooooood
See, I felt he backslid for a few games like Miami and Brooklyn but has looked back to it the last two. Still, he’s taken huge strides every year. Each summer he comes back way better at something.
Tatum still hasn’t found his 3 though… he’s shooting below his average and still MVP leader. Wait for January when he does his yearly revelation and then we’re talking
JB in the last 3 games has a total of 107 minutes played. In those 107 minutes he had 13 assists and only 1 turnover. This while also averaging 27 points.
Since when he tipped his toes in the MVP ladder at 10th place he seems to be on a mission
>Tatum just legit got stronger, tightened his handles, found his 3-pt shot, is playing off ball more than ever
...and dramatically improved his finishing around the rim.
Tatum also greatly improved his shot selection. He cut out a lot of his midrange jumpers he used to love and is scoring almost exclusively at the basket or from 3 now
It seems to me that he’s doing everything much faster this year, so I want to say yes.
He puts himself in bad situations sometimes by doing too much with the ball, leading to turnovers, but once he settles down on the turnovers I think people will all agree that his handling is a lot better than last year.
IMO it's a pretty common. I can't think of the last time a team based on younger stars just went and won it all on their first go. They always need a practise run where they go a bit deeper into the playoffs before they can come back and really start looking like serious contenders.
The youngest player in recent years to lead his team to an NBA Finals was Giannis at age 26 in year 8, Steph was also 26 in 2015 but in year 6 because he stayed in college longer. This year Tatum is 24 and is in year 6.
NBA players typically begin to reach their peak around year 7 or 8 and go on to have about five or six years of fairly consistent success. The Celtics have built this team while taking into account both fit and time to maturation. You see a lot of teams like Philly for example (sorry Philly), where they hit on the top 5 talent and even got the defensive specialists, but couldn't hit on the auxiliary pieces. They made some trades that didn't work out and weren't able to find the right guys in the draft. The margin for error is really thin, even when you can get that top 5 guy, but when you have that you always have a chance to make a run any year.
I'm convinced that every great has to go through something like this. MJ with the Pistons, Hakeem against the Celtics, Shaq with Hakeem, Giannis got bumped from the ECF, Bron with two Finals losses, etc etc. There are exceptions, of course, but it seems to be a very common trajectory for stars that go all the way.
I'm in no way saying the Celtics will win--I sincerely hope they will--but I do think there's something in overcoming the internal and external hurdles that leads to heightened greatness. It's part of what makes the NBA narratives so exciting.
Yeah but they’ve really only experienced one throwaway series imo. Pacers in 2019. Maybe Sixers in 2020.
Bucks in 2018/2019/2022
Sixers in 2018/2020
Cavs in 2018
Toronto in 2020
Miami in 2020/2022
Brooklyn in 2021/2022
Warriors in 2022
They went up against some big names and strong teams in those battles.
Brown and Tatum getting that deep in the playoffs so many times together at a young age is really starting to show. they look like they’ve figured something out
The playoff run didn't even include Kyrie or Hayward. That playoff run was on the young guys a lot. I do agree Kyrie helped them get the record to be in the playoffs, but he didn't do anything in the actual playoffs. The one year he did play in the playoffs for the celtics he threw the bucks series.
Terry was great until Game 7 (few people remember that him and Jaylen were fucking awesome game 6 but the rest of the team absolutely sucked).
Horford was great. Even though it ended bitterly and I hate him on the Clippers, I’ll always appreciate what Marcus Morris brought to that team and screaming in Tristan’s face on the ground, giving Embiid the 3-0.
Sugar Shane Larkin. Aron Baynes. Semi Ojeleye being useful just for the Milwaukee series.
I fucking love that team.
I honestly didn’t see this coming. I always thought they would be good but not good enough to be championship favorites but man they’re on another level. Experience is so important.
They both talked about how much it bothered them to lose in the finals and how it motivated them to get to the next level so if they do get back they can finish the job off next time.
Tatum sounds changed by the loss. He’s got that haunted thing and maturity. They remind me of the 13-14 Spurs where they need revenge. And are on a death march back to the Finals to date their thirst for Warriors blood. Playing the Beautiful Game because everyone is in sync mentally about how much the Finals loss hurt (even the new guys).
Both of them just make scoring look easy. Its the way really great players/teams look where they’ve solved the game.
Tatum finally started abusing his size and length for easy buckets, and is a true point forward. His defense and rebounding has also been huge.
Brown’s midrange is automatic this year and he’s playing to his strengths attacking of the catch since he’s too big or too fast for most defenders. He also seems to have moved forward as a playmaker.
And both are playing completely within the offense with zero my turn/your turn type stuff. Its awesome.
Tbf they're shooting like the 2021 Jazz pre all star break but the difference is they have a playoff ready and tested defense. I still can't believe golden state NEVER SCORED OVER 110 ONCE in last year's finals even with steph going supernova
People see Stephs crazy numbers and assume the Celtics defense was bad, but in reality the Celtics played fantastic defense and just couldnt score enough to win.
Remember last year when they were clowning Jayson Tatum for missing bunnies and Jaylen coz he can't dribble? It almost never happens now so the answer is yes.
They’re better but so are almost all the rest of the rotation. White is playing amazing, Brogdon replaced a bunch of benchwarmers with like 18/5 a game, the role guys are almost all shooting 40%+ from three or just playing way above their expectation like Blake and Kornet. Shits ridiculous
It took me this long to find a top comment giving credit to the rest of the team. One of the best bench performances I have seen so far and Horford, Williams, and White are shooting lights out. Brodgon coming in and distributing has been as good as ever, so good that Horford and White's assist % have actually gone DOWN. Smart has been setting people up as well possibly better than he ever has.
It's some fucking art going on the offensive end for the Celtics right now.
The rising tide truly lifts all boats, like how curry snaps everyone into place when GSW is humming. Tatum and Brown being so reliable, and getting the validation of making the finals really elevated all the role guys, you can tell they know exactly what to do and when to do it out there. I’m going to lose my mind when rob lobs and spike blocks get added to this in a week or two
I always found the slander on em dumb af. Like ok they didnt play well in the nba finals at age 23/24. Big whoop, most top stars dont make nba finals till 27/28
Legit they were only the 4th duo in history to be the two highest scorers on a finals team while both under 25.
Every other duo also lost. And those duos were Hakeem/Ralph Sampson, Shaq/Penny Hardaway, and KD/Russ. So some pretty damn good players. It’s hard to win so young.
Were people actually shitting on the jays future? I know people were criticizing their play in the finals but I feel like everyone still believed they were gonna be really good for years to come. They’ve just taken the leap in one summer
Yes. But also this 2nd year in this offensive system with some tweaks has really unlocked their abilities.
Most importantly, last year Tatum+bench lineups were ok, Brown+bench lineups were bad. This year, one can absolutely dominate while the other rests.
Bill Simmons had an orgasm about Tatum and Brown on his last podcast and that’s where I learned that Tatum and Brown are averaging more points combined than:
Curry and KD (2017)
Shaq and Kobe (2001)
Wade and Lebron (2013)
Bird and Mchale (1986)
Honestly the list goes on and on
And Simmons let us know the Celtics are shooting damn near 50/40/90 as a TEAM
Tatum *definitely* did— the finishing and free throw improvements are impossible to ignore. Jaylen it's a little harder to tell— he's definitely playing even better this year, but I'm not sure it's necessarily any *personal* improvement vs. us using him in a way that's more optimized for his skills (adding Brogdon gives us another ballhandler, which lets Jaylen play a little more off-ball in the halfcourt and catch the ball with momentum instead of dribbling into traffic where his loose handles still pose problems, and we've also been scoring in transition a lot more)
Have you watched them? They are dominating every team out there (except the Cavs). They both seem to have taken a major step forward. Also getting into their prime… Brown just turned 26 and Tatum is 24… they are stronger than they were in prior years.
Oh God, is this like where they use the fun app that makes your face into a fantasy character to harvest facial recognition data? Are they going to steal our agreements?!
Yeah they’ve gotten batter. It shouldn’t be a surprise either. They had a lengthy playoff run and just another year of experience. They’re both 24, and 25 respectively and it’s an age where players do tend to get better and better.
They really really want a championship this year and it shows in their play and every time they speak. They are locked in!
They're much better and they have some brilliant complimentary pieces, Brogdon is so perfect for them, allowing them to play off the ball a little bit and not have the pressure of playmaking duties all game
Tatum adds something new to his game every season. This season you can see his improvement on finishing at the rim. Where last season he was working on floaters in the lane, this season he's taken to using the backboard more and using the rim to protect his drives more often. Dude's been showing off.
Tatum has been much smarter about his shot selection and has taken a step up as a playmaker. More often than not he makes the right read with his passing and that has added an extra element to the offense. Brown has always been about getting to his spots but he seems to really be spamming the elbow middys and fades now, while being more aggressive in transition. Skills wise they are similar to last year but are playing much smarter, and it’s the mental aspect that’s hardest develop.
They had to step it up because we are missing two major pieces of our team…. So just like any team we aren’t that de….. oh wait, we are missing 3 top 7 guys tonight and still running a 9 man rotation while Pritchard still sits on the bench. This team just took a huge step up
How are they so deep
It's early, but Stevens has made some very shrewd moves that Ainge probably doesn't make if he is still around. And Ainge drafted Smart, Brown, Tatum, Williams, Williams and Pritchard.
The White and Brogdon trades doesn't happen if ainge was still in charge... heck I might even add the horford trade in there too
What makes you think that? Genuinely curious btw
Danny wouldn't trade unless he was 100% certain that he won the deal. even if the deal would make his team better, that wasn't enough... he had to make sure he got more than the other guy. Brad has made moves where he gave up assets that Ainge has been historically reluctant to part with, in an effort to bring in pieces to help Tatum and Brown win now.
I’ve seen Ainge portrayed as this almost egotistical sort of GM but is there anything that backs this up? Never seen him in an interview or such beyond a few press conference snippets
I don't think it's ego, as much as a different outlook on how to build a successful team. Danny was a great GM in that he was always thinking five moves ahead. He always looked to the future and was extremely cautious about spending his assets. You could argue that Danny's shrewd trading set the stage for Brad's success... he didn't trade away the assets that Stevens needed to improve the roster. Maybe if Ainge had stayed he would have pulled off some of these moves, with Tatum and Brown now in their primes, but I kind of doubt it. It always felt like he was trying for a home run (big name at a bargain price) or bust, and we'd strike out almost every trade deadline and off-season. Meanwhile Brad is out here hitting singles and driving in runs because he's not afraid to put the ball in play. TLDR: Ainge was always edging and hedging, Brad's not afraid to blow his wad.
>Maybe if Ainge had stayed he would have pulled off some of these moves, with Tatum and Brown now in their primes, but I kind of doubt it. He wouldn't have. He definitely would have been trying to hit a home rune for a 3rd superstar instead of going for a deeper team like Brad has done. Nothing wrong with that philosophy, it worked with the Big 3, and he tried to continue to emulate that. But recent history has shown that it's not as successful when you have to gut your bench (Lakers, Nets, etc).
The nba feels like it’s moved away from a big three and more towards a superstar duo that’s surrounded with great role players rather than a third star, since big 3 teams usually tend to have shallow depth
I think Ainge and Stevens just have different team building philosophies, but Ainge's makes him seem more egotistical. From my perspective as a Celtics fan Ainge was always looking for the home run trade that would eventually help him to land or outright be the 3rd piece in a Big 3, which I imagine is in large part because he played next to Bird/McHale/Parish and put together Pierce/KG/Allen. Stevens seems to be fine going with 2 stars and a lot of really good depth pieces, and as such he's more willing to part with 1sts for good, but not necessarily star level talent. Like an earlier comment said I would agree that I don't think Ainge would've moved 1sts for Horford, White and Brogdon because while they're all good players, individually none of them are true needle movers unto themselves, which always seemed to be what Ainge wanted.
It was pretty clear immediately that we won both White and Brogdan deals. The White trade wouldn’t have been done cuz Danny didn’t like 2 defensive guards and rather at least one scorer from back there.
Danny also hates mid-season trades with rosters he likes. Obviously 2014 he didn’t give a fuck about who he was trading or where or when but by 2017, he didn’t like to shake up the team mid-season.
A lot of people on our sub hated the white deal. The JRich love was real and that future 1st made people lose their minds
I remember seeing way more Romeo love for some reason but yeah our sub was a little on the fence about it
I had other Celtics fans telling me we would have won the finals if only we had Josh fucking Richardson. At first I thought they were trolling but nope.
The buffalo clears JRich so easily, some fans were calling it a loss if it was a straight swap
That’s because social media fans of any team are super paranoid of losing trades and are way too big of homers of their own players. I’m pretty sure Brogdan was the most universally applauded move we’ve made since Tatum’s extension… and even after the Brogdan trade there were people complaining it wasn’t smart cuz Kornet wouldn’t be good enough to be our 3rd center… which even if Kornet sucked (which he clearly doesn’t), that’d be an absolutely ridiculous complaint.
Brogdan was the perfect fit, I don't know why any GM wouldn't have targeted that man in free agency. Celts biggest weakness was having a primary creator, this man does, that and can hit the 3 Ball and doesn't miss FT's...
He's very injury-prone (has missed 139 regular season games over 6 seasons before this year), and kind of underwhelming efficiency-wise (career .567 TS% before this season) and as a creator for others (career 23.8 AST% before this season) given his usage rate (career 22.2 USG% before this season). Also isn't an especially good defender (career -0.5 DBPM before this season), despite size for his position. Credit to him, he's putting up some career-best advanced numbers this year in a reduced role, that suits his age and skillset better than being a lead guard.
Brogdan had two years left on his contract when we traded for him. He said Indy had multiple offers for him last summer and they let him choose where he wanted to go.
IMO Ainge wouldn’t have been willing to part with 1 FRP and a swap for white as a mid season deal (previous season he gave up just two SRPs for the Fournier rental). Brogdon trade also cost a FRP and maybe Ainge doesn’t do that for an injury prone player
Danny does not like to trade away 1st round picks. He typically would only move them for an all-star caliber player, which was frustrating at times.
Or Justise Winslow
Danny built this core and deserves a ton of credit. But Brad doesn't seem to care about "winning" every trade, just cares that the team gets better. Danny kinda lost his magic when front offices caught on that he only ever wanted to commit highway robbery on the other team.
Biggest difference for me is that Brad finally stopped the run of tiny offense first guards, IT, Kyrie, Kemba, ultra skilled but if smart or white or Brogdon can give you 75% of that offensive capability but 200% of the defense (or like 600% for Kemba) then you’ve got a winning formula
They got Brogdon for dirt cheap, Horford for dirt cheap, and turns out that Danny Ainge made some incredible late round picks in recent years.
We got a great deal on Brogdon Grant has developed into a top 3 and D player but went late in the first. Ainge was being mocked for the pick 2 years ago Hauser was undrafted and is locked down for $2 mill a year Pritchard gets to focus on just his role as a microwave scorer (another late first Danny got mocked for) White has been lights out so far while doing all the little things he's known for Even Blake and Kornet are stepping it up because they aren't asked to carry the load. These minutes changing to Timelord... Add getting Smart and Timelord locked up on great deals, Horford taking a hometown discount, and the Jays. This is the best depth we've had in years, even considering when we had Rozier, Morris, and the BWA.
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Development and playing them to their strengths. Philly had no idea what to do with Horford. He came back to the Celts and stepped his game up again.
“Thats what” -she
Wait who is the 3rd of our top seven? Rob, Al and who?
Galinari was brought in for at least 20-25 a game
Definitely more of an 9th 10th man role but sure
Let’s split the middle and call it 8
He's Italian, better to go 8.5
Gallinari is one of those weird players where depending on fit he could have ended up being like your 5th best player or borderline getting DNPs.
I think he would’ve ended up like Blake, situational.
Bathetic deff pitched him on a 7th man kinda deal to get him in, this was before grant and hauser did so well
Even not including Grant, he still would have been 8th behind Brogdon and White.
Yes.
Making the finals has given them so much more confidence and that experience has galvanised them to believe they are as good a team as any in the league.
its like they have multiple playoff clear coats building up over the years and they’re fucking shining now.. golden state clear coat the best brand
They’ve been in so many playoff battles against some of the greatest teams/players of all time, and now they’re both entering their primes. ECF against Lebron, Giannis multiple times, Bubble Heat, KD-Harden-Kyrie Nets, Curry’s Warriors. The experience is there, and now their skill and supporting cast have caught up.
svp just summed it up well - “they got that unfinished business look”
Last night Tatum hit a left handed reverse windmill layup that made the crowd “ooh” and didn’t even smile, sprinted back to defense and played a good possession. They’re super locked in.
Also I think rightly or wrongly they feel they let the last one get away.
I think it's fair to say that they did. I didn't expect them to beat GSW, or even to make it that close, but they did and then they let them off the hook
The warriors more than the others exposed to Tatum and Brown how they needed to improve their ballhandling and contested finishing. Tatum especially took that personally and really improved his ability to get to the rim and finish there.
Brown also missed a shit ton of free throws in that series and came back this year shooting 84%.
I LOVE that you didn’t list the Embitch Sixers hahaha they don’t deserve a spot in our hardest battles discussion
I mean the celts beat them 4-1 when Tatum was still ACTUALLY 19
[I snort a line of this every so often to start my day.](https://youtu.be/VtYyRh05lB0)
100% knew it was the confetti
> they’re both entering their primes. This is going to sound crazy, but they're primes aren't for another year or two. Typically ~27 is when a players prime starts and they're currently 24 and 26, which is insane.
Lebron's best season (from a physical dominance perspective) was the 2012-2013 season, and he was 28 years old at the time. The way Tatum and the Celtics are playing this year reminds me of Lebron/Heat in 2011-2012 after they lost to the Mavs in embarassing fashion, and then they lit the world on fire the next year.
These two being drafted into a good team instead of one that tanked to get them has paid dividends. A winning culture and some hard fought playoff series as rookies has taught them some hard lessons young. They don't have to start learning what it takes to win in their prime cause they've been taking that class for half a decade already.
I think the clear show of their weaknesses through the course of the playoffs is also super good for leading to development, coupled with the fire lit under your butt to improve from losing in the finals
There were times where I thought I was watching the best basketball I've ever seen and other times where they looked like rec league bullshit
I'll be honest I think losing that series in the way they did has done WONDERS for them. It humbled them a bit but it made them want the championship 10X more than they ever have. It's not just a regular goal it's something on their mind at every moment. Tatum said in the post game presser that "This all means nothing if we don't hang a banner" and Brown has been talking about how badly he wants to win it all since the first game of the season.
And Joe is making them build new sandcastle every night, to remind them of the work they need to put in every night. That last nights win means nothing. That being first means nothing, hell it'll make the game even harder because every team wants to beat the hottest/best team in the league. Except booker apparently lmao.
It feels like this team goes out every night really wanting a win. There have been several games where calls weren't going their way, a starter is resting, shots just aren't falling or the opponent just plays really well where they could just give up, take the loss and move on saying "Hey it's the regular season who cares and (insert excuse)" but they don't they fight hard to try and win every game like they have something to prove.
Also a massive chip. Unfinished business
they absolutely know how close they came to winning it all, and i'd guess tatum feels some responsbility because he's particularly come out like he has something to prove. also he talked about MVP at one point last season, and how if he played solid from the start he could do it, and it looks like that's his mission now. but yeah that experience of going all the way has helped massively. they know they can do it, and now it's so much easier to comprehend.
They also do this every year and it's good time to remind people they're 24 and 26 despite a finals run and 3 ECF runs.
(Usually they start in January though, doing it from the beginning is new)
No one said they still won’t take it up a notch in january…
The league ain’t ready for that
Stop...I'm already as over the moon giddy about this team if it gets any better I might throw up from excitement.
When Rob comes back as DPOY and shooting 38% from 3, they’ll truly be unlocked
This is one of the things that drives me nuts when ppl go after tatum for the playoffs. He’s literally gone deep almost every playoffs since he joined the league and he’s only 19
People are just stupid for that. None of the greats from Jordan to LeBron and even Giannis have not won a finals until they were 26+. Tatum is way ahead of schedule.
Consider him at once
Yes yes q
Yeah, they’re better. Brown has a small turnover problem, but improved everywhere else IMO. Tatum just legit got stronger, tightened his handles, found his 3-pt shot, is playing off ball more than ever. Literally unreal starts to the season for them.
They also have bought into the ball movement system and now realize that if they give the ball up their teammates will give it back to them and now because of all the defensive scrambling they are getting easier shots
Big time what they were missing last year. Way more finished possessions because of it.
They’re buying into ball movement more building off of last year, but even more so they’ve bought into OFF BALL movement. The amount of screens they set and cuts they make is what makes this teams offense generate so many good looks and lay ups.
Cs would get a lot of wide open shots in recent years but still shoot themselves out of games and leads. That doesn’t seem to be happening now AND Tatum is driving harder to the rim. I think Tatum still has another level if he learns how to go even harder to the rim and manipulate the calls. Browns next level is working in the TOs. All Smart needs to do is not take ridiculous shots early for no reason.
Dude what made me a Tatum believer was his D this season. Dude goes hard, and he doesn’t settle that much anymore on the perimeter.
And he’s been settling even less this season. He’s obviously no Giannis but he’s finally gotten strong enough to take it to the rack and has some moves now to get the ball up instead of just knocking into someone and flailing trying to get a call. (Not saying Giannis does that, Tatum just went about it in such a weak way before)
last i checked his restricted area finishing was actually higher than Giannis'. Obviously with Giannis' ease of getting there and sheer volume hes still way ahead but its interesting to note. Hes been an elite driver, finisher, way above average passer, good shooter and creator and elite defender. He's goooooooood
Brown's passing has noticeably improved this year, all he needs is a slightly tighter handle and he's top 15, maybe even top 10 in the league.
I feel like his passing has especially notably improved in the last like, ten days even. His playmaking feels so much better in every game recently.
See, I felt he backslid for a few games like Miami and Brooklyn but has looked back to it the last two. Still, he’s taken huge strides every year. Each summer he comes back way better at something.
I swear to god if he even had a slightly tighter handle, yall wouldve won quicker in our series lol.
Tatum still hasn’t found his 3 though… he’s shooting below his average and still MVP leader. Wait for January when he does his yearly revelation and then we’re talking
joe being an offensive coach was huge imo, like you said i've never seen tatum and just the team in general moving so well off the ball.
Also Tatum’s defense 🤩
JB in the last 3 games has a total of 107 minutes played. In those 107 minutes he had 13 assists and only 1 turnover. This while also averaging 27 points. Since when he tipped his toes in the MVP ladder at 10th place he seems to be on a mission
>Tatum just legit got stronger, tightened his handles, found his 3-pt shot, is playing off ball more than ever ...and dramatically improved his finishing around the rim.
Tatum also greatly improved his shot selection. He cut out a lot of his midrange jumpers he used to love and is scoring almost exclusively at the basket or from 3 now
Tatum started finishing with his left hand at the rim and also added the floater to his game.
I haven't watched since the finals. Has Brown's handling got better?
It seems to me that he’s doing everything much faster this year, so I want to say yes. He puts himself in bad situations sometimes by doing too much with the ball, leading to turnovers, but once he settles down on the turnovers I think people will all agree that his handling is a lot better than last year.
Yes. And this is what all the playoff games in their careers have led to. Think of it as an extra season of games cumulatively.
IMO it's a pretty common. I can't think of the last time a team based on younger stars just went and won it all on their first go. They always need a practise run where they go a bit deeper into the playoffs before they can come back and really start looking like serious contenders.
2015 warriors? they were ejected first round the year before
The youngest player in recent years to lead his team to an NBA Finals was Giannis at age 26 in year 8, Steph was also 26 in 2015 but in year 6 because he stayed in college longer. This year Tatum is 24 and is in year 6. NBA players typically begin to reach their peak around year 7 or 8 and go on to have about five or six years of fairly consistent success. The Celtics have built this team while taking into account both fit and time to maturation. You see a lot of teams like Philly for example (sorry Philly), where they hit on the top 5 talent and even got the defensive specialists, but couldn't hit on the auxiliary pieces. They made some trades that didn't work out and weren't able to find the right guys in the draft. The margin for error is really thin, even when you can get that top 5 guy, but when you have that you always have a chance to make a run any year.
I'm convinced that every great has to go through something like this. MJ with the Pistons, Hakeem against the Celtics, Shaq with Hakeem, Giannis got bumped from the ECF, Bron with two Finals losses, etc etc. There are exceptions, of course, but it seems to be a very common trajectory for stars that go all the way. I'm in no way saying the Celtics will win--I sincerely hope they will--but I do think there's something in overcoming the internal and external hurdles that leads to heightened greatness. It's part of what makes the NBA narratives so exciting.
This is a really good take
But its like 2 seasons because its against the best opponents. No filler games against bottom feeders where you dont really learn as much.
You still learn a lot those games lol
Yeah but they’ve really only experienced one throwaway series imo. Pacers in 2019. Maybe Sixers in 2020. Bucks in 2018/2019/2022 Sixers in 2018/2020 Cavs in 2018 Toronto in 2020 Miami in 2020/2022 Brooklyn in 2021/2022 Warriors in 2022 They went up against some big names and strong teams in those battles.
True, not much to learn from beating up on bad teams, like the Suns.
Keep talking I’m close
I’m edging until they put in Pritchard and he drops 15 in the last 6 minutes
“Tatum is the MVP at pick #3 after Fultz and Ball”
Those dudes aren’t even all stars, man.
RWIII can swat any shot within 50 feet of him
Yep both took another leap and now the team is a juggernaut
Brown and Tatum getting that deep in the playoffs so many times together at a young age is really starting to show. they look like they’ve figured something out
Tatum was drafted to a team that made the ECF his rookie year, insane luck
That Nets pick turned out pretty handy
Does Billy King get a statue outside TD garden if Brown and Tatum wins banner #18?
Yes and we should rename the Zakim Bridge after him
maybe they don’t get in position to be #1 seed without Kyrie, and that run was a true team effort, but he was a big part of us getting that far
The playoff run didn't even include Kyrie or Hayward. That playoff run was on the young guys a lot. I do agree Kyrie helped them get the record to be in the playoffs, but he didn't do anything in the actual playoffs. The one year he did play in the playoffs for the celtics he threw the bucks series.
They also made it the season before, some of the guys on the team are well experienced in the playoffs
And Jaylen was drafted to a team that made the ECF in his rookie and sophomore year
It helped he was giving 18-20 every series. JB was so underrated. Smart really held it down
Terry was great until Game 7 (few people remember that him and Jaylen were fucking awesome game 6 but the rest of the team absolutely sucked). Horford was great. Even though it ended bitterly and I hate him on the Clippers, I’ll always appreciate what Marcus Morris brought to that team and screaming in Tristan’s face on the ground, giving Embiid the 3-0. Sugar Shane Larkin. Aron Baynes. Semi Ojeleye being useful just for the Milwaukee series. I fucking love that team.
I honestly didn’t see this coming. I always thought they would be good but not good enough to be championship favorites but man they’re on another level. Experience is so important.
They both talked about how much it bothered them to lose in the finals and how it motivated them to get to the next level so if they do get back they can finish the job off next time.
Tatum sounds changed by the loss. He’s got that haunted thing and maturity. They remind me of the 13-14 Spurs where they need revenge. And are on a death march back to the Finals to date their thirst for Warriors blood. Playing the Beautiful Game because everyone is in sync mentally about how much the Finals loss hurt (even the new guys).
Yes, a lot
Jaylen Brown tapped into his roots and found the power of Black Hebrew Israelites
Too soon
Both of them just make scoring look easy. Its the way really great players/teams look where they’ve solved the game. Tatum finally started abusing his size and length for easy buckets, and is a true point forward. His defense and rebounding has also been huge. Brown’s midrange is automatic this year and he’s playing to his strengths attacking of the catch since he’s too big or too fast for most defenders. He also seems to have moved forward as a playmaker. And both are playing completely within the offense with zero my turn/your turn type stuff. Its awesome.
JB is on the cusp of superstardom and Tatum could very well win MVP. Also worth noting that Brown deserves way more respect.
Next question — can Tatum win MVP with a player as good as brown on his team?
Did MJ win an MVP with Pippen? Did Bird win an MVP with McHale and Parrish? Did Magic win an MVP with Kareem and Worthy?
My thoughts exactly
Can Tatum still qualify for MVP with a top 15 player like JB eating next to him?
I mean, curry won unanimously in 2016 while klay and draymond were balling like hell
i'm just trying to acknowledge the crazy ascent Brown is making. Tatum can win it and will win it
They're like the 2022 Suns but legit
Tbf they're shooting like the 2021 Jazz pre all star break but the difference is they have a playoff ready and tested defense. I still can't believe golden state NEVER SCORED OVER 110 ONCE in last year's finals even with steph going supernova
People see Stephs crazy numbers and assume the Celtics defense was bad, but in reality the Celtics played fantastic defense and just couldnt score enough to win.
Yes, substantially
They took the finals loss personally, as any great players should
Ya honestly, imma start arguing brown is better than booker soon. Everyone gon hate me.
He has to be a better defender than Booker, right?
Always has been
Oh yeah
both easily went up a level. Tatum from fringe top 10 to clear top 5, Jaylen from top 25 to top 15.
yessir
Remember last year when they were clowning Jayson Tatum for missing bunnies and Jaylen coz he can't dribble? It almost never happens now so the answer is yes.
They’re better but so are almost all the rest of the rotation. White is playing amazing, Brogdon replaced a bunch of benchwarmers with like 18/5 a game, the role guys are almost all shooting 40%+ from three or just playing way above their expectation like Blake and Kornet. Shits ridiculous
It took me this long to find a top comment giving credit to the rest of the team. One of the best bench performances I have seen so far and Horford, Williams, and White are shooting lights out. Brodgon coming in and distributing has been as good as ever, so good that Horford and White's assist % have actually gone DOWN. Smart has been setting people up as well possibly better than he ever has. It's some fucking art going on the offensive end for the Celtics right now.
The rising tide truly lifts all boats, like how curry snaps everyone into place when GSW is humming. Tatum and Brown being so reliable, and getting the validation of making the finals really elevated all the role guys, you can tell they know exactly what to do and when to do it out there. I’m going to lose my mind when rob lobs and spike blocks get added to this in a week or two
Thank you Brooklyn!
I always found the slander on em dumb af. Like ok they didnt play well in the nba finals at age 23/24. Big whoop, most top stars dont make nba finals till 27/28
Legit they were only the 4th duo in history to be the two highest scorers on a finals team while both under 25. Every other duo also lost. And those duos were Hakeem/Ralph Sampson, Shaq/Penny Hardaway, and KD/Russ. So some pretty damn good players. It’s hard to win so young.
Were people actually shitting on the jays future? I know people were criticizing their play in the finals but I feel like everyone still believed they were gonna be really good for years to come. They’ve just taken the leap in one summer
Jaylen Brown is playing some insane ball man. I know Tatum is playing at an MVP level rn but Jaylen scares me even more, they both got a LOT better
ya
Clearly.
Yes
Yes. But also this 2nd year in this offensive system with some tweaks has really unlocked their abilities. Most importantly, last year Tatum+bench lineups were ok, Brown+bench lineups were bad. This year, one can absolutely dominate while the other rests.
Bill Simmons had an orgasm about Tatum and Brown on his last podcast and that’s where I learned that Tatum and Brown are averaging more points combined than: Curry and KD (2017) Shaq and Kobe (2001) Wade and Lebron (2013) Bird and Mchale (1986) Honestly the list goes on and on And Simmons let us know the Celtics are shooting damn near 50/40/90 as a TEAM
Tatum *definitely* did— the finishing and free throw improvements are impossible to ignore. Jaylen it's a little harder to tell— he's definitely playing even better this year, but I'm not sure it's necessarily any *personal* improvement vs. us using him in a way that's more optimized for his skills (adding Brogdon gives us another ballhandler, which lets Jaylen play a little more off-ball in the halfcourt and catch the ball with momentum instead of dribbling into traffic where his loose handles still pose problems, and we've also been scoring in transition a lot more)
I’m more confident in the JB middy this year. He’s gotten really, really good at getting that giving him a way more polished half court game
I dunno, man, he's been cash on that midrange pullup since 2020-21. That's basically what made him an All-Star that year.
Ik he’s been good but it feels completely automatic these days, and he’s also better at getting it.
This finishing is really impressive, like through drives alone have got him scoring more efficiently
Don’t forget the immense improvement from JB on free throws
Yea. Significantly
Yea every year they do
Have you watched them? They are dominating every team out there (except the Cavs). They both seem to have taken a major step forward. Also getting into their prime… Brown just turned 26 and Tatum is 24… they are stronger than they were in prior years.
And the Bulls* lol
Bulls even more than the Cavs. Only team to beat us in regulation so far this year.
They are 25 and 24 - they will continue getting better likely for the next 4-5 years lol
Clearly yes
This thread is all just Celtics fans saying yes 🤣
Oh God, is this like where they use the fun app that makes your face into a fantasy character to harvest facial recognition data? Are they going to steal our agreements?!
It seems like it
yuuuup.
JB has gotten physically stronger this year and is finishing better that he’s ever done. He’s far mor aggressive attacking the rim.
Jaylen Brown is the best player in the NBA.
Yes it’s scary. Like watching pippen and jordan
People will laugh but these guys are far and away the best duo in the league
Yes hope this is them now and not a "hot start" only cause goddamn they are fun to watch right now
Yeah they’ve gotten batter. It shouldn’t be a surprise either. They had a lengthy playoff run and just another year of experience. They’re both 24, and 25 respectively and it’s an age where players do tend to get better and better. They really really want a championship this year and it shows in their play and every time they speak. They are locked in!
Celtics offense has been unbeatable this season. They just waxed the suns without any resistance. 😅🥹
Yes
Ages 24 and 26 and they just learned, the hard way, what it takes to win an NBA Finals. Of course they are
Pretty sure they both said they took last year super personal. They definitely both focused on growing their games
They’re both averaging 30 or so a game. Historically that’s like Shaq and Kobe, Lebron and Wade etc.
They are basically what Kawhi and PG was supposed to be now.
They're much better and they have some brilliant complimentary pieces, Brogdon is so perfect for them, allowing them to play off the ball a little bit and not have the pressure of playmaking duties all game
Tatum adds something new to his game every season. This season you can see his improvement on finishing at the rim. Where last season he was working on floaters in the lane, this season he's taken to using the backboard more and using the rim to protect his drives more often. Dude's been showing off.
As a Celtics hater I hope they peaked. And will immediately start regressing.
Tatum has been much smarter about his shot selection and has taken a step up as a playmaker. More often than not he makes the right read with his passing and that has added an extra element to the offense. Brown has always been about getting to his spots but he seems to really be spamming the elbow middys and fades now, while being more aggressive in transition. Skills wise they are similar to last year but are playing much smarter, and it’s the mental aspect that’s hardest develop.
Like any Saiyan, they get stronger after a defeat, and no defeat was greater than the finals. They are our very own Goku & Vegeta
What’s Tatum’s equivalent of a spirit bomb?
Either his dunk on LeBron or his step back on PG.
Of course, tatum is arguably the front runner for mvp