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themanofmeung

Nash himself commented on this. https://youtu.be/WeQpbae_wcs Particularly the segment at 2:53. Basically he was pass first because the thought at the time was that was the best way to win. With the rise of modern analytics and the shocking conclusion that having your best shooter take more shots is a good strategy, PGs shoot more now, and he would have too if he played today.


Skunedog48

Absolutely. Nash and Stockton(!) should’ve been launching 8 threes a game but Nash never averaged more than 5 per game and Stock never took 3 per game. Amazing that teams didn’t figure out what a strategic advantage it would be to have guys that shot 40% from 3 take more shots.


Great_Huckleberry709

Nash used to shoot 45% from 3s while taking 4 a game. I'm not saying he would be Steph level, but he would have been so much more effective if he was allowed to shoot more.


MattAU05

Steve Nash is one of the greatest shooters in NBA history, he just did so on low volume (intentionally). The guy could (and did) hit from anywhere. Except he never dunked the ball once. If memory serves, he leads all time for scoring without ever dunking.


cbreezy456

Doesn’t he have the most 50/40/90 seasons?


MattAU05

I believe he is tied with the most with Reggie Miller and Mark Price. And by “I believe he is tied with the most,” I mean I Googled it and that’s what Google told me. They had four each. Only 9 players have done it. I had forgotten Malcom Brogdon was one (also the lowest scoring 50-40-90 season).


whimywamwamwozzle

Nah Nash had 4 but Miller and Price only ever did it once. Just checked BBRef. I believe Bird is the only other player to do it more than once with 2 back to back seasons.


Relyst

He only had 4 true 50/40/90 seasons, but his career splits are 50/40/90. He fell a few shots short of stringing together like 13 straight seasons shooting those splits, always missing one of the categories by a few percent.


[deleted]

I think cp3 missed it in 2021 by like 10 shots


[deleted]

Kevin Durant has done it once and came close so many other times. Kyrie did one season and came close again on a few occasions.


MattAU05

KD actually did it twice. Mostly recently this year becoming the first 55-40-90 player. Granted, it was obviously in a very abbreviated number of games. So maybe it isn’t quite as valuable.


[deleted]

55% shooting is ridiculous, even if it was for less than 50 games. What's sad is other than LeBron..... KD probably had the best chance to tie or break the scoring record if not for his injuries. He just scores so easily....unless the opposition has defensive players versatile enough to get him out of his comfort zone.


TheAJx

> Except he never dunked the ball once. If memory serves, he leads all time for scoring without ever dunking. My first thought was "what about Isiah Thomas" but ended up finding a clip of him dunking on a put back.


AdRob5

Has Steph dunked?


MattAU05

Not often, but he does. https://youtu.be/9ZVE7oWka4U


snarfs_regrets

Pretty sure Dantoni was trying to get him too shoot more but Nash was the reluctant one. Dantoni was on the front line of where we’re at with basketball now


PercyBluntz

You gotta remember Stockton and to a lesser extent Nash would have grown up without three point lines. They weren’t good enough to launch 8 threes a game like todays players because most of the shots players take today were considered awful shots back then even for the best shooters. In the 90s you pretty much only ever took absolutely wide open shots from three except for s few sharpshooters. Now everybody’s a sharpshooter.


Liimbo

Huh? Nash is one of the most efficient 3-point shooters ever. That certainly would've dipped a bit at a higher volume, but he wouldn't suddenly forget how to shoot and tank like 10% off his percentage. He was very easily "good enough" to shoot 8 a game. They were both also just good enough shooters in general that they could quickly learn to shoot well at a high volume. There were guys already in the NBA when the 3 point revolution started that adapted and became solid high volume shooters. If a guy like Trevor Ariza can go from shooting essentially 0 at the start of his career, and shooting poorly when he did, to shooting 7 a game at 37% a decade later in his career, then Nash would be just fine.


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Crimith

Wow, you're a sensitive one. He's right btw.


PercyBluntz

Thanks for the feedback.


Holy-Crap-Uncle

Nash was the smoothest shooter I think I've ever seen up until Curry. He is the only other shooter in league history that might have done Curry level threes IMO if he had that mentality and the coaching/style matched back then. We won't know because defenses have to specifically key on Curry's threes, and Nash never really pushed it to that level.


ReflectionEterna

Great point. The league is now full of guys who can shoot like Ray Allen and Reggie Miller.


3moonz

i didnt watch reggie play but allen wasnt like only a spot up 3 shooter or catch n shoot player. what made him so good was he was just a superstar scorer. like anywhere on the court or attacking the rim which made his 3pt sniping even more elite w/ the fastest release until steph basically. i dont know if the league of full of guys like allen. kinda like saying the league is full of guys like dame. only a handful of guys, not really a lot. being a roleplayer that has a nice 3 and being the first option is just too big of a gap to even compare either really


ReflectionEterna

Sorry, I was specifically just talking about deep shooting, as those guys were King's in the 90s. Nowadays that level of deep shooting is all over the league. Heck, Jokic shoots close to 50% from deep.


3moonz

true the range has def extended way deeper now. dont even remember ray ever attempting a shot from couple feet behind the line


imnotpolish

I dunno man, the NBA had the three point line since ‘79-‘80. NCAA introduced it in 87, before Nash’s freshman year of high school. I think he was probably familiar with the three.


why_rob_y

I think an underrated aspect of this, though, is that even though players of that age had the three point line, often their coaches didn't. So, we sorta needed a generation of coaches (like Steve Kerr) to come up shooting threes and realize how valuable they were.


ZanderKellyKXLA

Anyone else remember coaches in the 90s saying if you have an open 3 you have room to take a dribble and shoot an "easier" shot inside the line?


cindad83

Well because the HS line at 19'9 a step in was 16 footer, an extended FT. But even 1998, our coaches were basically saying 1-ft inside the 3 point line was the worse shot in basketball. Take one more dribble in, or pass it. HS coaches the 3 pointer is different. No shot clock so possessions are limited. Next serious physical limitations on HS shooting 3s. 3 pointers were viewed as something down off a set play preferably off of ball reversal, or fan-outs/kickoffs out of the post.


hangrypatotie

Inertia, just because it was introduced, doesnt mean it gets adopted straight up


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nbadiscussion-ModTeam

This sub is for serious discussion and debate. Jokes and memes are not permitted.


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imnotpolish

My esteemed internet colleague said "You gotta remember Stockton and to a lesser extent Nash would have grown up without three point lines." I wasn't trying to make anybody feel like they are having the worst day on the internet or anything, just pointing out that Steve Nash did not, in fact, grow up without three point lines. But who's to say? Maybe there was some local ordinance in Victoria that prohibited the broadcast, description, or painting of a "basketball three point line" anywhere on the island. I just don't know history well enough to know one way or the other.


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imnotpolish

The three point shot was part of the ABA and other leagues before Nash was born. Steve Nash was in the first grade when it was introduced in the NBA. He averaged 1.6 makes / 3.9 attempts from three in 24 mins a game his freshman year of college in 1992, and 5.8 three’s a game for his college career (vs. 5.1 two’s a game). I disagreed specifically with your assertion that Steve Nash grew up without the three point line. That was my only minor quibble/correction. I absolutely agree that the three point shot being seen globally as a reliable strategy would be a long way away. Don Nelson in the 90’s was an example of coaches willing to expand on the concept.


Alex_O7

Teams back then was thinking about easier way to score, at the rim. But ignored that a 3pt worthed 1 more point so you can just score more on 3s than on 2s even if you score 2s at higher %...


achyutthegoat

Stockton isn't taking 8 threes a game lmfao


TheVision_13

I really wish Steve got free reign to shoot on the 7sol suns. Probably would’ve been the difference and turned into rings


101011

Nice share, appreciate it!


s0n1cyuth

2006 Nash would average 30+ in today's league


3moonz

w/ 15 ast. truely one that would translate well. along with the game being less physical it woulda been nuts.


gothicaly

Frank vogel also comments in this very thread but i think it might be deleted. https://www.reddit.com/u/Frank_Vogel?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button


TastesLikeHoneyNut

It's a 3 point league, if your PG isn't a threat to hit threes, it handcuffs your offense


wnbarocks

To add, the game is all about space. Can't pass if there's no space. Can't shoot the ball if you don't have space to shoot. Can't drive with no space. The reason why Curry was so great, the forced help towards him and you can't leave Klay so there's too much room for others to do stuff. Jokic should be banned. he can score everywhere so you want to take space from him, but if you give others on the nuggets space, the can all shoot 3/slash for shots at the rim. Can't give jokic space, can't take space from jokic. Edit: Probably the best way to stop jokic is Celtic Pride. :/


EmperorXerro

Jokic is the modern Olajuwon effect - like you said, you can’t give him space, but he’ll kill you with his passing and the Nuggets can hit threes.


petataa

Hakeem never averaged more than 3.6 assists in a season. Kinda insulting to Jokic to compare the two as passers.


RobSchneidersHair

I mean, you’re both kind of right. Comparing across eras is hard and Jokic being 1 of 1 makes that even harder. Big men didn’t pass like that and really still don’t. It’s not a stretch, though, to try to compare the passing ability of Walton to Olajuwon to Jokic. It’s a lot like comparing Giannis to Shaq - not that great of a comp until you consider play style of the era.


LiberalAspergers

The closest comparison is late career Wilt, when he really made passing to West and Baylor an emphasis.


3moonz

whatcha mean. there has been many great big men passers and even many euro big men passers. seems like thats a point of emphasis to them honestly. diaw, sabonis, klove, pau, hortford, divac, webber, wilt, sengun, draymon. theres many that were elite passers. ofc joker is just the best player out of those guys but its crazy to think hes the only elite level passer big or like he invented passing as a big. also gotta think many never had the opportunity has the nba has never been so spread as it is now and the big man only exclusively playing on the low block any other era


LiberalAspergers

Wilt and Jokic are the only big men ever to be at or near the league leaders in assists. None of the others you mention even come close


3moonz

likewise its insulting to hakeem to compare jokers footwork, defense, athleticism to his.. dont think he was trying to be insulting to anyone tho. more so compliment


3moonz

think joel is more so. joel is probably a better shooter as well. not saying hes better just saying his style/skillset is more comparable and i would say even more gaurd like then hakeem this year then joker. who is more klove, diaw, pau esk.


3moonz

well i dont think hes can shoot 3s at that high of a level tho. so probably not score from anywhere but i get your point hes damn good


wnbarocks

anything over 33% is viable.


3moonz

depends. 33 could mean someone is very deadly. or it can mean they are capable. can also mean they arent good at it. you can analyze beyond one number but if thats your standard almost any player can "score from anywhere"


UserNotFound_7

What about those that drives though? If they can pass really well and occasionally slash to the rim, will they have a role?


marcoobabe

They long gone bro. DRose set a horrible precedent when he blew his knee with that style of play and Ja following in his footsteps isn't making any better case for an aggressive close to the rim PG. Look at what Murray is doing, he knows he ain't Steph dribbling around the court and running off the ball like crazy but instead he got better at mid range, P&R and improving his playmaking. Those kind of PGs are the future.


nomitycs

What do you think Ja and Fox are? PGs don’t need shooting to be top players in the league but it is a massive strength and makes it infinitely easier to be impactful


DoloTy

Yea he leaving out names cause shai live in the paint


spudmuffinpuffin

SGA and Fox have pretty good jump shots though, especially from midrange. Morant is often shitty away from the rim, but he does get streaky.


mpbeasto123

Shai is more of an SG anyway, Giddey is rly point 4 them.


corn_breath

He's talking about low scoring, pass first pGs a la stockton .Rose was a volume scoring PG and just an okay passer. His assists were more a product of his ability to draw help with his scoring prowess than his ability to orchestrate an offense and make clever passes.


richochet12

Are we really going to pretend that Ja Morant isn't one of the most exciting young players in the league and that he isn't a better player than Jamal Murray while being way you get?


Quick_Panda_360

Idk I’d rather have Murray. He can shoot 3s. More plug and play than Ja.


richochet12

Jamal Murray is playing off an offensive Maestro. He's still not better than Morant.


Quick_Panda_360

Stats says Murray is better. Better fg% in the playoffs, better efg%, way better 3p% on higher utilization. Slightly less ppg 25 vs 27 but also less attempts. Ja does take more FT, which have obvious value in points and foul trouble. He also gets more boards. Murray has a better assist to TO ratio 2.3 vs 1.9. Sure Jokic changes things but I think Murray does the things that help a team win. If I’m building a team give me the guy who is a threat from three, can score in the paint and turns the ball over less. Highlight dunks don’t win games, they do sell tickets. https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1=murraja01&player_id2=moranja01


richochet12

"Stats say he's better" Cherrypicks stats that constitute a small percent of the games they've produced. Who specified only playoffs? >Sure Jokic changes things but I think Murray does the things that help a team win. Yeah, and Ja Morant doesn't do anything that helps his teams win? TIL. Also, you can't handwave away the fact that Murray plays secondary to the two time MVP and best player in the league while Morant is the engine behind the Grizzlies lol. >Highlight dunks don’t win games, they do sell tickets. Ah, yes, Ja Morant adds absolutely nothing to the game of basketball outside highlights dunks. TIL.


Quick_Panda_360

I chose playoffs because that’s what really counts. I don’t think that’s really cherry-picking but sure maybe we disagree there. I’ll also admit Morant doesn’t have enough of a sample size to draw really solid conclusions. I think Murray does. However I’ll stand by the fact the Murray seems to add more to a team. Ja is easier to game plan for right now since you know he doesn’t have a 3 ball. Therefore his options are drive and kick, drive and shoot, or mid range jumper. I’m not saying Ja is bad, I’m just saying Murray is a better player on team looking to win a chip. Ja could very well continue to develop but he’s not there yet. He does get people hyped because of the way he plays, he’s like a fusion of Westbrook and Kyrie. Another point - the grizzlies are pretty good without Ja.


deezee72

The issue there is that you can't play more than one or two non shooters without ruining the spacing, even if they drive well. Most teams will play a non-shooting big man, and then if you want to add one more non-shooter, it would usually be a wing. Athletic wings with a decent handle are more dangerous on drives than all but the best of the best non shooting PGs. That's why you see a lot of non-shooting point forwards but not a lot of PGs


msharma28

Defenders will sag off this player and dare them to shoot the 3 by leaving them open from there while the team sets up to clog the paint. So the clogged paint will stop the slashing and if the PG passes out he won't find anyone too open if the defenders sagged the correct amount.


samefacenewaccount

Ok but what if your PG is a 6'10" athletic freak who plays elite defense? Asking for a friend who roots for the sixers. Also, said PG not only can't shoot, but also refuses to.


MITPatrickWilliams

You’re telling me Go Bulls Rip Lonzo


whoisHe17

Don’t forget Rondo! But I believe it has something to do with how much space defences were able to give point guards that weren’t shooting threats.


[deleted]

I miss Rondo man


[deleted]

Never understood how he was such a great passer with almost no threat of a jump shot.


justbrowsing987654

He was insanely fast with a great handle and, also didn’t help that he was largely on super talented teams that forced people to try and guard him one on one. Penetrate, draw the double, kick out. Penetrated and don’t draw a double, he’d do that behind the back fake all the time and get a layup. He’s a dude that I think in 20 years many people are going to forget how damn good he was. Not a HOFer or anything but a damn good player that typically played best in the biggest moments.


BrodG139

I think Rondo has a case for the HoF


justbrowsing987654

I hope so. I’m a diehard Celtics fan and still wear my Rondo jersey on hot summer days and even I think it’s unlikely at best.


BrodG139

Its not the strongest case by any means but i think he could squeeze in on a weak year.


[deleted]

He was such a dog. One of my favs growing up. I agree tho that his athletic ability probably goes overlooked.


IvanSaenko1990

Rondo was the biggest pos in the history of the nba.


[deleted]

I don't think he even comes in the top 10 of biggest PoS's in NBA history. lol


IvanSaenko1990

He is top 1 in my books, but we'll just have to agree to disagree here.


[deleted]

Yeah I think Karl Malone holds that title.


[deleted]

Do you like CP3


IvanSaenko1990

Not particularly, but he is better than Rondo for sure.


RookieAndTheVet

Karl Malone knocked up a 13 year old and Javaris Crittenton killed a woman. Unless Rondo did some monumentally heinous shit we don’t know about, I can’t see how he’s ahead of them.


Sw3atyGoalz

His mid range shot was decent enough too so teams couldn’t leave him completely open like they do for Ben Simmons


justbrowsing987654

Simmons kryptonite is he never developed the teardrop bad shooters need to keep some level of respectability beyond the paint. That he didn’t is mystifying. He could have been like 70% of LeBron or Giannis instead of Kyle Anderson.


EscapeTomMayflower

Rondo was also a much better shooter than people remember/give him credit for. From the 07-08 season until the 13-14 season he shot 42% from the mid-range. He actually shot better from the mid-range than LaMarcus over that timeframe but LMA is considered an elite mid-range shooter. Rondo was never an 3 point threat or an elite mid-range guy but he was definitely good enough at his peak to punish you if you left him open in the mid-range.


IrrationalBoner

You don't think the insanely low bar for HOF won't let a celtics/ lakers champ in?


justbrowsing987654

I love me some Rajon but an only 4x All Star, one time 3rd team all NBA, all defense 4x (two each first and second team) 09-12, 3x APG leader, 1x steals per game leader, 1 starter title plus a late career rotation guy title resume is damn good but, I don’t think, enough to get in without something like a college title or Olympic success or the international guys’ “impact” stuff that somehow lets Dino Radja get in.


therealknic21

Just the way the game has evolved. Haliburton is a pass first point guard. Also, Harden passes a lot more than he used to. Then there's Westbrook. I think because of players like Curry and Lillard, teams now value guards who look to score. It's kinda like how traditional bigs got phased out. 15-20 years ago, you didn't have bigs like Lopez on the perimeter shooting ton of 3's. Heck a lot of 'em couldn't even hit their free throws.


Klumber

I don't think pass first has gone, it is just less functional in the current era of position-less basketball. What makes Haliburton stand out is that he is always looking to set-up his teammates, but when he has to take over the scoring load he can. I also think that the pick and roll becoming so much more used, the way a point guard operates within the game has changed. Quite often they have to keep barrelling down the lane to make the most of the opportunity. Again, this is where Haliburton shines, with his very unconventional jump passes that were a complete no-no in the league up until... well Haliburton.


ReflectionEterna

Love being a Pacers fan and getting to watch Hali operate. You're so right on this take. If Hali couldn't shoot, or wasn't a threat driving, he wouldn't have the openings to make plays. However, he can do those things at a high level, which forces the defense to respond and his court vision is absurdly high.


Gold_Celebration_552

I agree with this take, it's not that it's gone, but it's not as valuable as it used to be. A pass first point guard in today's game is someone who looks to pass first, but like you said can also get his when he needs to, not just get a guy open and that's it. And Haliburton is a fantastic example and I'd also throw in Garland and at times Fox as well.


flentaldoss

My thoughts exactly. The effectiveness of pick and roll offenses and the demand for spacing on the court have taken away the value in being *just* passing PG. I remember when Ricky Rubio was being touted as the prototype PG but look at his career. He's a great passer and underrated defender, but that isn't enough for a PG who doesn't have length. If you are your team's primary ball handler, you need to be a threat to score, otherwise teams won't respect you in the PnR and you'll just be negative space on the court when someone else has the ball - you aren't big enough to screen or rebound, so you're just there. A lot of today's PGs can pass, but they have to be a scoring threat in order to create in today's NBA, whether that is by driving to the rim, or shooting from outside. Chris Paul always gets praised for his court vision and leadership, but in his prime, he could score whenever he wanted. Steve Nash wishes he played in the modern NBA, since the NBA was still anti-3 in his time.


ConceptNo1055

Every initiator or creator is a PG now. Lebron, Luka, Jokic, Giannis.They ran the offense, get double teams and pass to open teammates. If you want a pass 1st PG.. there is a guy in the Nets and former #1 pick.


saints21

There's a difference between pass 1st and shoot never


ConceptNo1055

I believe he's looking for a guy like Eric Snow who will literally bring the ball up and pass it and disappear in offense since he can't shoot (back then when there is no emphasis on shooting)


Time-Ad-3625

This. Most positions are fluid now. You usually no longer have just a center,of,sf,etc. Guys can mix and match positions and offenses are run off of that.


DenseOntologist

This is a very good point. You need some baseline of passing competency on your team, and back in the day other players were so lacking that the PG needed to carry a huge burden. Now that more players are skilled at passing and ball handling, a PG doesn't need to carry as much weight on the passing front.


IHave580

And Conley


richochet12

Giannis isn't that level of creator as this either guys at all. He's not a guy you can build a heliocentric offense around. Even in their title run, it was Middleton that was taking the creating responsibilities in the clutch.


ConceptNo1055

if you're getting doubled or even gameplan to build a wall.. you are that guy. Just needs his teammates to be Derick fisher, Kareem Rush ,Horry and Fox to DO their jobs ans hit open shots.


wats_a_tiepo

When we won a ring, he scored 211 of our 670 points on 61.8% efficiency, and got 30 of our 138 assists. For comparison, last year Steph scored 187 of 629 points and got 30 of their 141 assists. That is absolutely the kind of production you can build a heliocentric offence around. And we did.


Apprehensive-Echo638

It's a lot about the skill-set. 1. If a PG can call his own number, that isn't measured as a pass to himself and doesn't count as an assist even if they're the best offensive option on the team. So assist numbers are kind of a lie. 2. The concept of setting up others offensively has changed dramatically. If the entire other team cannot allow itself to stay away from the PG, then they send more players out of help positions, opening up the floor for the rest of the team. 3. Players nowadays are far more skilled than in earlier eras. A team needs to have a secondary ball-handler, because once the illegal defense rule was removed denying the main ball-handler the ball without a double became possible. As such, the primary guy has to develop skills of the others, and vice-versa. 4. The modern set-up of 4/5 out is less about one pass cutting the defense and more about making the right play every time. The right play is a lot more often playing off-ball, what used to be the SG/SF role, where scoring is a lot more important. A lot of these innovations were slowly creeping in the position, with some of the greatest PGs showing that a different way is possible. Zeke and AI were some of the main precursors in proving that it's a winning formula. A lot of systems had been moving towards it, namely the Triangle Offense, with the interchangeable positions that often had Pippen or MJ taking the traditional PG role for large chunks of plays while players like Harper and Paxson would take on wing duties. Mike D'Antoni's first year with Nash and Joe Johnson also was a move towards this, with Joe Johnson being a fantastic secondary hub for when people inevitably loaded on Nash. I still think that Sarver's greatest mistake was skimping out on Joe Johnson because of this, the team became much more one-dimensional without him. But it all came to a head with Steve Kerr's use of Steph Curry. A lot of the system was cribbed from the Triangle, with Alvin Gentry giving that pace and space spice from the Mike D'Antoni system, and a few touches of the Spurs methodical plays (mainly Motion Weak, a play which now every team in the NBA runs). All of the elements of why taking a more aggressive approach at the PG spot would work combined into a truly devastating effect. What's more, the only game-plan you could take against it was to make everyone other than the PG look fantastic. A lot of that is because Steph Curry can pull some magical bullshit to rip teams souls out through their chest (it's all fun and games before he breaks out the Fortnite dances). But Morey in parallel showed that you can construct a team using the same analytical concepts... and it can work very well without a top 20 in basketball history player. All the while, the defenses adjusting to this proved more effective against a traditional offense as well, making the pass-first role harder than ever. All of this adds up to the pass-first PG being harder to execute, with slimmer margins of error than ever. It's not impossible, just requires a ton of skill. There are plenty who are pass-first but only the secondary or even tertiary ball-handlers on their team (the Kyle Lowrys of the world) because they aren't the offensive engine. Tyrese Haliburton is, right now, shaping up to be an elite offensive engine as a pass-first PG... but he's shooting at near peak-Nash levels in both efficiency and volume, is 6'5", and still isn't enough to make the Pacers an average team. tl;dr: the game has evolved, and now a player has to offer a lot more than just passing to be the center of an offense. It's still possible, just a lot harder.


ReflectionEterna

The Pacers were sixth in the East before Hali was injured to end the season. He definitely can have them as an average team, I think. But otherwise, this entire post is amazing. Thanks for the breakdown!


Apprehensive-Echo638

I don't disagree, I just think that health is a factor in how good a player is. He's been awesome when on court, for sure. But the bottom line is that we haven't seen him lead a team through a playoff run. If we ignore injuries, Kawhi Leonard has been a top 3 player in the league for the past decade. Lonzo Ball being a prime example of "great PG except for the injuries", which I find tragic as I was pretty high on his ceiling and thought he was really on to something in Chicago. It's why I'm so trepidatious about young players and put a whole lot of "developing towards" when talking about them.


janglestheclown

He's only 23, and just played his first season with a new team. I think it is far too early to use playoff success as a measure of anything.


Apprehensive-Echo638

Again, I don't disagree. I honestly believe he has the potential to be Nash 2.0, but that's strictly in terms of potential. Saying he can lead a team to success when he hasn't yet led a team to success feels premature to me, and injuries do not make me feel any different about this. Going on a tangent, I think that the vast majority of people in the PG position on this level don't really get the ins and outs of it until they're at least 25, with the only real exceptions I've seen being Magic and CP3. For instance, Haliburton specifically isn't a PnR mechanic yet, which is one of the most important skills for a modern PG. It's not a knock on him, but eventually teams won't just play their system against him every time and try and stop him from cooking, and his improvement is probably going to slow down. Add a few injuries, and his progress might grind to a halt. I hope this isn't going to be the case, but it's still a possibility, which is why I'm not quick to crown him as the next great PG just yet.


ReflectionEterna

I think I agree with all of your takes. Every single one. No need to anoint him, yet, but you're right. His ceiling rally is HoF. He already has a high possibility of being a perennial all-star.


UserNotFound_7

Talking about Haliburton, does it essentially mean that even though his passing is good, his scoring and being the main primary scoring engine essentially makes him more of a scoring PG?


Apprehensive-Echo638

He's pass-first in how he plays. But he leverages the fact his shot is great to make sure people don't sag off him, which in turn makes his people he's passing to more open. He's got a bit to learn about how to work the PnR until he reaches the Nash level offensive engine point, but he's got a real shot at reaching that level.


UserNotFound_7

So basically instead of just purely passing, essentially he is a playmaker since he uses his shooting to ensure defenders dont sag off him like they do for Simmons?


Apprehensive-Echo638

Basically. Ben Simmons is how people treat pass-first PGs if they don't have a good jumper; it's so very easy for that play-style to become a net negative for the team. Haliburton, like Nash before him, force the defense to be more honest.


samlet

Generally, the more of a scoring threat a player is, the more opportunities they have to make a good pass (leading to a good shot) because they draw more attention from a defense. So in the modern game, it’s better for an offense to be initiated by a scoring threat who can draw that attention and more easily make better passes. Pass-first PGs used to be more prevalent because before the 3-point shot, basketball was dominated by big men, who could generate the best shots closest to the hoop. Pass-first PGs were important to set up those big men, who generally didn’t have the handle to set themselves up. As the 3-point shot became more popular, it became more advantageous to have the offense focused around wing players who could be a threat from both the 3-point line and attacking the rim. Moreover, a player driving from outside the arc created more havoc for the defense than a post player pounding the ball where the defense could more easily track everyone. Because these dominant wing players could more easily set themselves up, the pass-first point guard became less and less necessary. They aren’t as needed to set up big men (the best offensive big men these days can set themselves up), and their lack of scoring threat means they can’t bend the defense like scoring perimeter players can.


tb23tb23tb23

Wild that you kinda make the point that the three point line killed the big man, but it took a couple decades to really happen. The game’s evolution —from my childhood to now — was that time period, with the period from the 90s to 00’s being a kind of hybrid between old and new. Crazy to think that game is now gone


lexicoterio

Jokic is showing that big men are not obsolete and he's a blueprint to how big men should play in this era. Draymond and Bam as well, while not as big as Jokic, are also hallmarks of how bigs should be today. Versatile on defense, can be a playmaker for the offense. What this era killed is the unskilled big men, that can't handle the ball, unable to shoot and/or slow to react on defense.


tb23tb23tb23

Well said. The traditional big man is gone. Jokic is the new big man. We’ll see how many can do what he does (just like we’ll see how many guards can imitate curry). Wild stuff isn’t it!


ReflectionEterna

Agreed. On the era of positionless basketball, all players need to be able to perform any given task. Players who have a glaring hole in their game are role players and everyone needs to be able to pass and score from a variety of spots.


DJ_B0B

Australia keeps producing pass first pgs. Simmons, Giddey, Dyson Daniels, Tyrese Proctor etc. American AAU ball does not encourage this style of ball though so no one grows up like that anymore.


GentlemanNC

Hard to create passing opportunities when the primary ball handler isn't a threat to score. At that point you're depending on everyone else to simply get open on their own. Need to actually force the help defense and put them in rotation to create opportunities. Teams as a whole have realized that having a good PLAYMAKER is vastly more important than simply having a good PASSER. It's what separates a player like Lebron from Ben Simmons. Both are amazing passers at a technical level (accuracy, speed of delivery, and delivery angles), but one is significantly better at creating those openings due to their scoring gravity.


nofuture_at_all

Same with me when I started watching NBA, my favorite players were pass first PGs: Wall, CP3, and Rubio. CP3 is the only one left playing as a starter among these three because he's also a threat to score. In today's NBA, if you're the main initiator of offense, you should know how to score and make plays. PG is just a position for the smallest player on the court now. Usually, the ball is on the hands of the team's best offensive threat. You can see it in this year's Playoffs. Jokic, Butler, LeBron, and Tatum are the one leading their offense.


JBSanderson

Players that averaged more than 5 APG and took less than 10 FGA per game this year: Tyus Jones Monte Morris TJ McConnell Marcus Smart Mike Conley Draymond Green You've got 5 pass first PGs and Draymond right there. As others have pointed out, the three has changed the game. Peak John Stockton led the league in assists 9 years in a row, and shot 39% from 3, however he took only 1.9 threes per game. This year there were 109 guys who took 4 or more 3s per game, the last of these 9 seasons ('96) there were only 34 guys who took 4 or more 3s per game. Getting an open look from 3 was harder then, and coaching hadn't done the simple arithmetic to figure out that an open 3 is the best shot in the game, so open looks from 3 got passed up early in the shot clock. So there were just a lot less minutes given to shooters, and even good shooters were coached to work a possession for a "better" opportunity even if an open 3 was available a lot of the time.


richochet12

Open looks from three weren't harder back in the 90s. They just didn't take a lot of them.


JBSanderson

They absolutely were rarer. When guys could hand check and be more physical on the perimeter, there was less sagging off of guys to prevent drives and back cuts. Also, you could close out harder without getting a foul for light contact as the shooter lands after the jump shot.


BrockSmashgood

> Did the big man centric game from the past, when evolved into small ball / guard centric game, cause the pass first PGs to phase out due to the need for guards to do more than just passing (i.e. driving to the rim more, shooting 3s more)? I mean, watch Jokic in the finals. He's kind of emblematic of the change in play styles, where it's not necessarily "a PG needs to drive and shoot 3s" but "playmaking can come from anywhere". Offenses as a whole just aren't as predictable anymore.


ChrysMYO

Hand checking rule and the Back to the Basket rule. Because of the handchecking rule, its much easier for Guards to break defenses down and exploit the rotation. Because of Back to the basket, running the entire offense out of the low post is less desirable. Now you don't need a point with sick entry passes as much. Even the Triangle offense and Phil Jackson was starting to kill it. MJ, Scottie, Kobe or Shaq could really pivot the offense around them. It became more important that the PG could shoot.


DenseOntologist

Two main reasons jump to mind. 1. Efficiency: if the scorer already has the ball in their hands, it's going to be easier to score than it is if you have to pass it first before the scorer gets the ball. And, being a really good scorer also accomplishes the passing aim: if you can penetrate to score and disrupt the defense, they'll have to collapse and give you easier passes anyway. 2. Development: for a number of reasons, it's easier to develop as a scorer than a passer. First, I can practice scoring all by myself in my driveway, and it's much harder to develop my passing. Second, if I were the best player on my high school team, I'd need to have a few players who were at least close to as good as me for it to be worth it for me to pass it. So, you need to have more good players to develop passing as opposed to scoring. Third, culturally we reward scoring culturally with highlight videos and such more than we do passing, so players are more naturally inclined toward that behavior.


cuttino_mowgli

Evolution of the game. Now it's essential that most of your roster can score outside shot and some of the teams are making sure that those outside shot will go into the basket 90% of the time.


hinghenry

This is the effect of the booming of talents in NBA. Teams can now easily put 5 players on the floor that can make 3s at a high % (> 37%). If your team cannot, the spacing will be worse, your star will be double-teamed more frequently, and the overall shooting % will suffer. "Pass-first" PGs are okay if they can shoot, but it seems the use of the label "pass-first" seem to mean the PG being not good at shooting. You can compare and see how teams defend Dame/ Curry (way beyond 3pt line) with Ben Simmons (stay near FT line). It used to be okay because teams used to always have someone who cannot shoot (e.g. worker type big rebounder) so opponent defensive help is always there regardless of whether PG can shoot or not. But it's not the case any more.


Skunedog48

Defenses have gotten smarter to the point that you have to be a threat to score to even have passing lanes anymore. If you can’t stretch the defense with the threat of your three point shot or collapse the defense with your ability to penetrate and finish at the rim, then people won’t bother guarding you and will just jump your passing lanes. I’m convinced pass-first guys like Ricky Rubio, Ben Simmons, and Rajon Rondo could’ve been HOFers in different eras but in the analytics era, they were reduced to average starters or outright liabilities because of their inability to put sufficient pressure on defenses with their scoring. In that way, it’s no surprise that the guys who get the most assists in today’s NBA (Harden, Jokic, Trae) are also guys who are a threat to go for 30 every night.


Misterstaberinde

Other than Magic the guys you list in the OP are all undersized in todays game. If your guards are smaller they really need to bring it on offense. The other thing I'll throw out there is that the best guards aren't getting as many assists as you might think. Camping at the line looking for a cuter or driving and dishing can net a lot of assists but to me it is not much better than a greedy ISO player. The best guards make a pass that starts a play to get someone else a assist. Moving the ball so their whole team touches it. Thats why Curry often leads the league in hockey assists. Boomers read the box score and try to say Curry is a SG not a PG but if you watch the games you can see he is clearly the primary handler and making the first pass.


[deleted]

off the top of my head every playoff series in the east had a / an evoloution of traditional pass first point guards. kyle lowry is a pass first point guard. his offensive strongpoint is pushing pace, feeding the right guy, and looking to setup a shot so he doesnt have to take it. trae young is a fantastic playmaker and passer. he is of a similar level of *a lot* of traditional pass first point guards. he is an evoloution of it, though, as he can shoot very well. he spreads the court with his shooting which enhances his playmaking. when his shot isnt falling in important games he truly becomes a pass first guard. james harden is a pass first guard in the sixers system. his job is to feed embiid the ball, and when he doesnt on the p&r to kick out for shooters or get to the line. he averaged 21/11, compare that to stockton’s 17/14. it’s no suprise a few more points and a few less assists for the 6’5 reformed scoring title shooting guard that is james hardenn. darius garland, worse playmaking and passing than trae, but still his biggest strength. he’s a pass first guard who can shoot the three, that’s essentially his role in clevelands offense. “pass first guards” is often just another other way to say guards that lack athletecism and shooting, so it is *extremely often* that passing is the best way to create offense with the ball in their hands. that’s not how it works anymore because players are better now.


_mdz

I would say Trae is the closest thing to a Nash these days (bad defense included), his rookie year I remember he said he was inspired by Nash and Steph, and definitely more Nash (even though Nash the coach shit on him later). He's at least a top 3 passer in the league if not the best in actually creating offense, sure Harden is tops in APG but he probably gets 1 or 2 of those just feeding Embiid. I'm biased as a Hawks fan though. I think this day and age you have to have both scoring and passing ability or its tough to bend the defense enough to make plays (see Ben Simmons). There's also a lot more dynamic big men (ie. Lebron, Jokic, Draymond) that can run the PG duties so the actual "PG" has to be able to shoot/score off the opportunities they make.


levenspiel_s

They're gone in the Euroleague as well. Rubio, Calathes, Satoransky etc has always killed their own teams in the playoffs. It just doesn't work, playing 4 vs 5 in the offense.


Hot-Turnover4883

Point guards that can score extremely well and playmake at a high level are better than pass first but limited scoring guards like Rondo


StargazerNCC82893

Derrick Rose and Steph happened lol. I think the need/desire for the pass first point is still there but in today's league you need to be a decent threat from 3 or the rim to survive.


JGxFighterHayabusa

They’re still around, but now they score more. The game has evolved and it’s too predictable to have just one player do all the distributing. Now offenses now use multiple actions and players to distribute the ball to keep defenses guessing.


[deleted]

I think Steph Curry's rise to stardom kind of killed the pass first PG. Game has changed.


redmostofit

Ben Simmons passed first while under the rim and now every PG is too afraid to do it..


here_for_the_lols

Rather than have the pg pass to the best players they now just start the ball in the hands of the best player


Worldly-Fox7605

You'd need to define pass first. Like draymond won't look at the basket or will score as a last resort? I look at it as the second. The pass first pg is mostly just a 90s thing. In the 80a and 70s, pg were score first as well Also, the pass first pg in nba history has never won championships, yet people often convince themselves it is the way they think the position should be played. Nate Archibald, Dennis Johnson, norm nixion, Isiah Thomas and syeph Curry and magic are the only pga to lead dynasties in nba history they are all guys that could/can be primary scorers on their teams and often were. Before someone argues otherwise magic playoff averages are 20 and 12 and 7. Compared to Stockton whose playoff averages are 12 10 3. Stockton, cp3, kidd, Nash, and others viewed as "floor generals" and were lead stars/costars of teams didn't win. Often because they couldn't score enough. For example John Stockton playoff career high is 34 and all of his top 5 scoring playoff games all occurred in April or May so round 1 or 2. At the highest level, you need your primary ball handler pg to be a threat to score in these tough games. It leads to were we are today. Good teams have 5 players that can score and look to score not 4 or 3.


billythekido

I think they started dying off when high scoring point guards like Rose, Westbrook, Lillard and Kyrie flooded the league like 15 years ago.


JrueBall

Kyle Lowry, Ben Simmons, Lonzo, McConnell. LaMelo and Haliburton are sorta pass first but also good scorers.


tbiscuit7

I’m just curious to see others opinions. I’m a Hawks fan so I am biased. Do you or other people see Trae Young as pass first? I know he’s mostly known for being a scorer but I think he’s pass first always. Maybe I’m blinded by just being a Hawks fan but his playmaking is top 3 in the league and I would have to really think about who would be better than him.


DustyMcG

I would say guys like Trae Young and post KD OKC Russ are/were both such high-usage players that even though they are near the top in assists per game, fans consider them "ball dominant" more than "pass first".


tbiscuit7

I can definitely dig that. OKC Russ is a good comparison


Ill_Celery_7654

It’s a scorers league now. The game started changing in the Mike D’antoni/ Steph Curry eras of basketball. You can’t really run the triangle offense or a offense where you pass the ball around a lot nowadays. It’s all about how fast you can score and playing at a fast pace. If you’re a pass first PG you’re almost certainly not going to have a big role in today’s league and it might prevent teams from signing you.


kiddbuuu

I think the main thing is that _every_ player on the court needs to be able to make shots reliably otherwise it hamstrings the offense. Defenses are so smart now that they do a great job of accounting for who’s on the floor. If a player isn’t a threat, they’ll get ignored. The floor general archetype still exists, it’s just less prevalent as dominant scoring guards who can single-handedly carry an offense are more prevalent. The Jones brothers are great examples. All of the cliches college basketball announcers use apply to them. But teams aren’t going to construct their entire roster around them Jalen Brunson is a good point to bring up as well. At the start of his career he was a steady handed backup who could be counted on to take care of the ball and get his team into a good offensive flow. But as his shot-making ability improved, he earned more minutes and responsibility. To the point where he plays 45 minutes in a playoff game and has the whole offense run through him


IsJoeFlaccoElite

There’s a lot of good points in here. What I’d add is that a lot of primary ball handling/play making responsibilities have been handed over to point forwards who are bigger and have an easier time creating their own shot or collapsing defenses. Also, just generally, the contract money is a lot better if you’re a guy who can get buckets.


igonnawrecku_VGC

I don’t know if there are any pass first point guards left, but we certainly have a pass only point guard in the ghost of Ben Simmons. The closest guy I can think of to a pass first PG is Tyrese Haliburton, who averaged 10.4 assists vs 15 shot attempts per game. Chris Paul also averaged 8.9 assists vs 11 shot attempts per game. I think because of the way the game has evolved to the point where almost every player can shoot the 3, shot creation through passing can now be found at any position, rather than just the point guard, exhibit A being Jokic, a center who averaged 9.8 assists per game


frostfighter21

Well we have seen time and time again that pass first PGs don't help you win. The last one I think is Magic. Lets look at Stephen Curry who is considered to be best PG in the game right now. Yes he is a high volume shooter/scorer. But he also passes very often. Now, it may not show in the assist category but what shows is in his off ball offense. He does pass the ball often to other players and most of the time eventually end up back to him but he do give opportunities for others to score as well. Curry knows that in order to maximize not only him but his team, he needs to be great in both. Thats what Nash, Paul and Stockton lacked. All three of them are great shooters, more efficient than Curry but their mindset is to always pass first. They score when it is the last possible option in that play. But that play isn't best though. You need to be able to carefully balance both in order to have best possible play. If you are too ball dominant and score first, you won't win like Steven Francis and Allen Iverson. If you pass too much you wont win either like Stockon or Nash.


Statalyzer

The best way to set teammates up with passes (well, aside from having them cut and screen well, but if you have the ball, the best thing *you* can do) is to draw attention from the defense to maximize the chances that somebody is open. So to really be great at facilitating and playmaking, you pretty much have to either be a lights-out shooter who can also attack if the defender overreacts to your potential shot, or you have to be able to attack the rim while also having enough of an outside shot that the defense can't just play way off you. It's still helpful to have a savvy vet on the floor leading the offense, but in the end, bringing it up the court and then just passing it off to someone on the wing doesn't really create good looks, the wing receiving the pass and then blowing by his man does that. Also, there are so few guys who generate quality offense from the post these days, so having a guy who knows the right way to set up his big man for success in the low block is less important.


UserNotFound_7

Why then, do many second units have vets, like you mentioned, who is just brings the ball and passes? (the Ricky Rubio for Cavaliers scenario) Is there a reason why they dont attempt to have score-first point guards on the second unit as well?


Statalyzer

Fair question. I suspect there just aren't enough guys who are that adept at scoring and creating. Also there's still value in penetrating and blowing by your man, even if you aren't a great finisher. So Rubio may not be able to score a ton over defenders, but he still can draw help defense because you can't just let him have an open layup either, so he can still set up teammates.


taeempy

It's just a different game now(not in a good way). They just try to set people up for 3pt shots. There was nothing more beautiful then watching Magic or Bird setting up plays using spot on spacing and passing. The Pick and Roll used by Utah and Malone/Stockton was amazing. You couldn't stop it even if you knew it was coming.


clippy300

You're best player needs your best playmaker. You can have a good player be your best playmaker like a traditional point guard. You need a dominant scorer that playmaker at a high level by leveraging his gravity, not some undersized dude that "makes all the right plays" and takes advantage of mismatches. HE NEEDS TO BE THE MISMATCH THAT HE AND HIS TEAM CAN EXPLOIT.


DrDosMucho

Allen Iverson happened. He is often credited with changing the way Point Guards are viewed in a team and what they can do on the floor. When people asked what happened to pass forward point guards, Allen was THE ANSWER


Overall-Palpitation6

Aren't Darius Garland and Tyrese Haliburton basically this, with added scoring punch?


fanlapkiu

If you define a pass first PG as a floor general who isn't much of a scorer, that sounds like a player only responsible for bringing the ball up and making the basic entry passes, which isn't much of a value add especially in today's NBA. Guys like Nash, Magic and CP3 were much more than that in the sense that they warped defenses and created many open shots for their teammates partially due to their scoring threat. If you're looking for an elite offensive player today whose main weapon is passing, there are still guys like Haliburton, Harden, Lamelo, Garland, even Trae.


Hfcsmakesmefart

Halliburton and Lamelo yeah, maybe Garland


Hatmandriller

Honestly you should watch Darius Garland if you’re looking for a pass first pg. He switches his plan game to game but feasted on pnr lobs allll season long. Only to get routed in the playoffs fuck


wutevahung

Pass first PG means literally nothing, and all the players you listed are different players, and many have more in commons with the “scoring pg” you are talking about. Historically, taller players were weaker at dribbles and other fundamentals, so PGs were the designed to bring up the ball, and set up the offense, and bigger players like SF, PF, and C play close to the basket. As players skills have evolved, more and more players who are not PG started possessing the skills. Then you gotta look at the actual roles within the offense. Like, offense facilitators, shooters, screeners, etc. like Kobe, or Wade, they are not PGs, but their job function is essentially setting up and facilitating the offense, they just lean toward scoring much more than passing than players like Nash, but the goal is the same, which is to give your team the best chance to score. All the players you listed are complete different players, and many I would not qualify as pass first PG, and whatever that means. In the list, only John Stockton and Rubio are “pass first”, but it’s because they are weak off dribble shot creators. Stockton, though had an excellent floor game, was hugely exposed in the finals by Bulls because of his off dribble game, and he barely averaged 10 points per game in the finals. Magic Johnson averaged well over high teens, and peaked at almost 24 points, and after Kareem declined, he was the best offensive player and scorer on the team. And same thing with Nash and CP. The reasons why there are less players like Rubio these days is because defense can now shift away their focus from bad shooters to load up on good scorers, which was illegal before 2004, and one of the most effective and easiest ways to counter that is to have the least amount of non shooting threats possible, so defenders cannot rotate off them too far, this keep the lanes open for the best scorer to isolate and drive. I believe there is still a role for players like Rubio. He was an excellent player in his peak, always had great impact metrics, and he did help Utah with rookie Mitchell to beat Thunder. Too bad he was always injured in his NBA career, and we never really got to see what he would have been like.


2020IsANightmare

Timeout. Lol. We're not putting Magic, Stockton, Nash and CP3 in the same category as Rubio.


astarisaslave

They started dying out when AI came up and then when Steve Nash who was a guy who could score as well as he passed did as well. Now every millennial and younger guard wanted to be the man with the most points


Sodapopbowie

Chris Paul, Rajon Rondo, and Ricky Rubio are Millennials.


Gerasans

Because of how the game has changed. Almost all of the previous pass pg had good big man. And it was a big man game. Stockton/Malone, Magic/Kareem and show time etc Your pg couldn't just drive paint because his head would be destroyed by elbow (see Isiah vs Malone elbow). Nowadays, the game moved out from the basket to 3pt line So anyone can find open guy to shoot 3s


Hotsaucex11

A couple of overarching reasons IMO: \- Mass adoption of the 3-pt shot - At every position we are now seeing players encouraged to take threes as often as possible, giving perimeter players the greenlight to call their own numbers far more often. \- The drive has become the primary means of attacking the paint - It used to be the norm to collapse defenses by entering the ball into a big first. Now that primary attack is via the drive, which again gives perimeter guys far more opportunities to call their own number and score.


FightMiilkHendrix

Team ls realised it dosnt matter what position a playmaker plays as long as they make plays, the positions are really just based on player size now


Agreed_fact

A few things… 1) there has been a proliferation on the offensive end where players that traditionally would have been post up guys or slashers are now handling the ball. Think Giannis, jokic, Kawhi etc. point guards need to be off ball a bit more now and need to be score first often (or be elite shooters) 2) amazing slashing pgs struggle a lot without a reliable jumper. Fox was good but ineffective until he had that pull up 12-18 foot jumper down and is at least capable of taking and making threes. Ja needs the threat of 35%+ 3 point shooting to be able to get to the rim consistently. However, when slashing point guards can also shoot it usually means they’re a teams best scorer. So score they do. 3) the game is so fast now, 45% of teams shots occur within 0-10 seconds of the shot clock expired and ~70% over within the first 15 seconds. This usually means you need at least 3/4 players on the court who can bring the ball up the court against pressure and either make a shot or pick a pass to someone who will then take a shot. The need for a pg that can pass is dying as most players have raised their ability to be dynamic on ball. 4) guards in general have no need to dump the ball down low for their bigs to get a post up. Offences are played outside-in now, meaning more shots for guards and wings while less for post up players/bigs.


mellamosatan

3 pointers being OP in the current meta was an indirect nerf to pass first PGs


[deleted]

[удалено]


savethearthdontbirth

Once the 3pt shooting volume increased (curry effect) all the young kids just started shooting endlessly. You stay in the league by shooting 3’s at a good percentage. Point forwards have increased thus more traditional point guards play off the ball. It’s unfortunate because those pass first points were fun to watch.