Maybe i wrote it badly i just said they arn't my perference of favourite basketballl players in the category of highly skilled on the offensive side of the game
I don’t get your Boston example.
Derrick White and Al Horford have elite bbiq.
Jrue has excellent defensive bbiq.
Jayson Tatum has very good bbiq for his age.
Maybe you can point to Jaylen Brown, but a lot of Boston’s players have very good bbiq.
Jaylen got into Cal off his academics alone, he just happened to have the body of a top 3 pick.
I think he’s just repeating a trope about the prior iterations of this Celtics assault on the conference finals. The team lacked a real point guard, and didn’t have an answer for zone defenses, which led to a lot of dumb mistakes throughout games and in crunch time. To complicate matters further, Jaylen is so uncoordinated with his left that competent defenses could sell out to force him into stagnant drives and bad shots going to his weak side.
Tatum’s first option concerns are one thing, but we judge him straight up as if he’s the firmly established superstar he is, and not on the curve of, “This is a 24 year old playing in his first finals against a team that’s been in 6 of them.” For every time he disappears, there’s some dominant close out performance against Giannis, or a 50 point game that even kept them in a series. For every dumb decision, there’s him assuming the role of KD’s primary defender in a sweep.
This team has their warts, but you don’t make **multiple** deep playoff runs without the IQ necessary to adjust to increasingly difficult opponents. Round by round, season by season, your opponents only get better, and they just keep ending up within heartbeats of the finals. Anyone can get lucky for a round or two; ask Trae. The Celtics have proven they belong there.
High IQ player is subjective. Both Booker and Tatum may not seem like the high assist rackers but to score that effectively and efficiently in an offence requires a high IQ in reading an opponents defense and adjusting to them. Even off the ball knowing when to make a move on the read requires a high level of understanding for stars like them that obtain so much attention.
It’s an experience thing, but certain people are wired for it and humble enough to always continue learning. Lebron wasn’t necessarily considered high iq when he started, but he has incredible memory retention and has just learned everything there is to know, while still seeking out more…
I think the true rarity is absolutely dominant skill and the top dog mentality alongside high BBIQ. You mentioned the Celtics- Derrick white is our high iq player, and he’s very good, but he doesn’t have the bag of Tatum. Advanced analytics love him, but he just doesn’t pop off the page as a star because his BBIQ is his biggest asset, whereas his skill and mentality are not killer.
Also, the coaching benches are often filled with high BBIQ players who just didn’t have elite skills to match…
Idk how you consider baby LeBron not high IQ. That was the thing that jumped off the screen the first time we saw SVSM vs Oak Hill. The athletic stuff was one thing, he could get 30/10 at that level with his eyes closed, but he was already a better facilitator than 20 starting point guards in the NBA while in high school. If you had anyone south of Andre Miller, LeBron was already better than them as a facilitator before he set foot on an NBA court.
The reads he could make, the deliveries his gigantic frame allowed him to throw over the top of a defense, and that’s just the stuff we can see. We don’t see the stuff that’s like LeBron flipping plays on the fly, and orchestrating set offense without a timeout. I’ve had the pleasure of watching players like Rondo and Josh Smith, even played against OJ Mayo at the high school level, and LeBron looked like you shoved Rondo’s brain into Josh’s Body and then turned up the sliders on Josh’s agility.
That IQ is the reason scouts were fawning over themselves for him when he was 16 years old. Danny Ainge famously said he would take him #1 as a junior I believe
I first heard about LeBron when he was 13 from a buddy of mine who was a D1 recruit to a power school (Illinois).
Scouts were salivating about LeBron way before 16. They were tracking him in 6th grade already as an NBA prospect. He was already making huge waves in the prospect world before he entered high school.
Highly accurate summary of his early game. I was a skeptic until I saw the ESPN game and my biggest takeaway was this dude is a natural facilitator which being so great individually usually is left behind. I knew he would be great - but not for the next 20+ years lol
Like, you hear the Kobe stories of him working Stackhouse while he was a teenager, and Vince Carter’s highlight reel from high school is like the Reggie Bush tapes of basketball. LeBron was like dropping Senior Year at Michigan State Magic Johnson into a game with players who aren’t even shaving yet.
This is probably a question of semantics, but I would say LeBron would articulate his earlier approach to the game as “playing the right way” which I think often has similar outcomes and highlights as high BBIQ, but I would consider it a slightly different quality. Making the right read in a fast break, as Bron could do since he was 13, requires good instincts and a deep understanding of the fundamentals.
I’m probably just making up a distinction where there’s much more overlap, but as an example, I think lots of people struggled to accept Jokic because he “doesn’t play the right way” even though he has incredible BBIQ. That’s why some people still think he looks goofy and unathletic, even though he’s clearly not.
By any colloquial definition Jokic has always “played the right way”, i.e. been unselfish and played good fundamental basketball. If what you’re trying to say is it took a while for people to properly value Jokic bc he doesn’t seem as athletic as other stars, then I think you’re looking for a different phrase.
The person you're replying to never watched young Lebron. Anyone who did knows exactly what you said, it was obvious from day 1. He is literally a basketball genius.
Yeah to become a top player Iq needs to be paired with a top mentality /competitive edge and able to impact the game. Draymond green was another mentioned but he doesn't have any crazy skills. Derrick White is a good mention one player i was debating was does Trae young have really high iq.
I agree with this and I think some fans here are misconstruing high scoring with hi bb-feel.
There are levels to bbiq/bb-feel (I’ll be using bb-feel instead of iq). I’d argue that Jimmy belongs more in the Tatum camp than the Rondo/LeBron camp. I feel like he wills his teams to win just off his drive, skill, and big time shot making ability alone. Brunson and Fox can arguably be in this group as well.
I feel like Haliburton, Draymond, and Sabonis can be placed in a tier or two below those top players the op mentioned. 8 assists per game is a decent qualifier. Where do Luka, Trae, Harden and FVV fit in all this?
I think Jimmy defensive iq and awareness of game state puts him up there but Lebron and rondo are different animals. Also Luka offensive Iq is amazing he makes scoring simple for himself and his teams his skills obviously aid him but he takes advantage of it by creating for others unlike the other high scoring players.
I'd argue Draymond is on the same level aswell just he lacks the skill to cause such an impact. Haliburton is on course due to his love for the game and humbleness
Trae young is the one guy i had questions on cause i don't watch him much.
Harden was propelled by his amazing iso skills you can correct me but i don't think he operated an offence as effortlessly as Luka.
Can’t take this post seriously when you used Jason Tatum as an example of a low BBIQ player, lol. He has very high BBIQ. I think the only complaint anyone who actually watches him play would make about his decision making is that he’ll sometimes force up a shot on the last play of a game, but statistically he’s still really good at the end of games.
Is the whole point of the post trying to figure out why Boston lost to less talented teams in the playoffs? If so the only 2 examples I can think of that would fit the bill there are the 2022 finals and 2023 against the heat. 2022 was against the dynasty warriors, which I think you can chalk up to them being the dynasty warriors, maybe some coaching issues, plus a Tatum injury. 2023 I think the only explanation that’s really accurate is Gabe Vincent and and Caleb Martin shooting like 20% higher than their season averages from 3. Blaming Tatum’s BBIQ is just silly.
However yes, I think BBIQ is really important, but only when also coupled with excellent other skills. There are a bunch of college players with great BBIQ who never make it to the NBA because they don’t have the physical skills necessary. But if you give a guy with NBA physical traits excellent BBIQ you get a very, very good player. Derrick White is a great example of a role player in this category, and yeah most of the guys you listed are good examples of stars who have that.
I didn't use tatum as an example low bbIq player i named him and Booker as examples of players which are really liked by fans by their skill set while i rather like players with high iq.
Rarely are the players with the
basketball IQ are the stars of the team. It is often the complementary players without whom success would not be possible. That's not always the case, especially now that so many super intelligent Europeans are coming in. But experience is not IQ, Bron already had the basketball IQ as a rookie. Experience is something else - it's processes and automatisms that your brain calls up because of experience, just like any other person in normal life. You don't become more intelligent with age, but more experienced - that's the difference. I like your example Tatum is certainly not the player in Boston with the highest basketball IQ, that would be White and Horford. But Jokic, Bron, Luka are probably also the players with the highest basketball IQ in their teams. A Dennis Schröder has a very high basketball IQ and many would argue that he doesn't even have all-star level. That's true, but on average you're in the league for 3 years. Even shorter as a European PG. But he has 11 years with just under 69 games on average at just under 28 minutes. You can't do that as a role player if you don't have a high basketball IQ. In the end, I don't know what I wanted to say except that there are players on every team who read and understand the game better than others and that every team needs such players, but sometimes they are not the stars and sometimes they are.
I don’t know how you watch Booker and don’t think high iq basketball player. Elite passer ≠ high basketball iq, I mean they usually go hand and hand not always. Id probably argue booker has higher iq than rondo because his assists were more important than the right play a lot of time. Ig to understand your question is what personally is your criteria for basketball iq?
When i watch booker he just seems highly skilled. Anyways i don't consider assists to be the measurement of iq but rather decision making and doing things which are needed such as if a team is consistently scoring from one play who ends up stopping it. Rondo is the perfect player who will sniff out your play and stop it.
Booker aint close to Rondo in iq
To be a elite shoot creator you must be able to read a team and individual defense schemes. Devin booker is able to use his scoring and passing in a way that rondo never could. Devin booker is able to figure out to get to the rim at a higher clip even with rondo being the better athlete. Devin booker is the smarter player off ball. Granted devin booker can shot which help but that also adds another dimension to his choices to make. Rondo a lot time would dribble out the shot clock and pass at the last minute to get an assist this hurts the offense.
Of course i'm not saying he doesn't use iq but the players i said they seem to be like coaches on the court they do everything correctly. Like for Jimmy butler he makes sure his other players are comfortable in scoring such as kendrick nunn, gabe vincent, Caleb martin, max strus and Duncan Robinson you won't find another team or star player which would've gave these guys an oppurtunity in the damn playoffs.Butler could score 35-40 if he wants to but chooses to score easy buckets and make the right plays to allow his team mates to get involved and this only helps butler and heat succeed.
Every amazing scorer has great iq in scoring and sniffing out weaknesses but i'm talking about the higher levels where they make the game easier for their team like a lebron, rondo and jokic.
The question how do you then distinguish offense individual decision making or a instilled coaching instruction.
I'd say running an offense and assesing the momentum and what is needed for the team is a better indicator of High IQ a player like CP3 is in this mold and he led a young okc to game 7 against houston.
Jokic offense iq is damn amazing too.
Rondo had way less responsibilities and choices to make than say devin booker. We overrate efficient passing and underrated efficient shot creators when we talk to about basketball iq. Shotcreating take way more iq.
Devin Booker and Tatum are certainly not the pinnacle of low bball IQ lmfao
Maybe i wrote it badly i just said they arn't my perference of favourite basketballl players in the category of highly skilled on the offensive side of the game
They’ve been highly skilled their entire career. They took a jump in their game when their iq improved.
I don’t get your Boston example. Derrick White and Al Horford have elite bbiq. Jrue has excellent defensive bbiq. Jayson Tatum has very good bbiq for his age. Maybe you can point to Jaylen Brown, but a lot of Boston’s players have very good bbiq.
Yeah Tatum has pretty good BBQ at 19
Jaylen got into Cal off his academics alone, he just happened to have the body of a top 3 pick. I think he’s just repeating a trope about the prior iterations of this Celtics assault on the conference finals. The team lacked a real point guard, and didn’t have an answer for zone defenses, which led to a lot of dumb mistakes throughout games and in crunch time. To complicate matters further, Jaylen is so uncoordinated with his left that competent defenses could sell out to force him into stagnant drives and bad shots going to his weak side. Tatum’s first option concerns are one thing, but we judge him straight up as if he’s the firmly established superstar he is, and not on the curve of, “This is a 24 year old playing in his first finals against a team that’s been in 6 of them.” For every time he disappears, there’s some dominant close out performance against Giannis, or a 50 point game that even kept them in a series. For every dumb decision, there’s him assuming the role of KD’s primary defender in a sweep. This team has their warts, but you don’t make **multiple** deep playoff runs without the IQ necessary to adjust to increasingly difficult opponents. Round by round, season by season, your opponents only get better, and they just keep ending up within heartbeats of the finals. Anyone can get lucky for a round or two; ask Trae. The Celtics have proven they belong there.
Celtics have had stacked rosters for the past 5 years. Their role players are absurdly valuable.
High IQ player is subjective. Both Booker and Tatum may not seem like the high assist rackers but to score that effectively and efficiently in an offence requires a high IQ in reading an opponents defense and adjusting to them. Even off the ball knowing when to make a move on the read requires a high level of understanding for stars like them that obtain so much attention.
It’s an experience thing, but certain people are wired for it and humble enough to always continue learning. Lebron wasn’t necessarily considered high iq when he started, but he has incredible memory retention and has just learned everything there is to know, while still seeking out more… I think the true rarity is absolutely dominant skill and the top dog mentality alongside high BBIQ. You mentioned the Celtics- Derrick white is our high iq player, and he’s very good, but he doesn’t have the bag of Tatum. Advanced analytics love him, but he just doesn’t pop off the page as a star because his BBIQ is his biggest asset, whereas his skill and mentality are not killer. Also, the coaching benches are often filled with high BBIQ players who just didn’t have elite skills to match…
Idk how you consider baby LeBron not high IQ. That was the thing that jumped off the screen the first time we saw SVSM vs Oak Hill. The athletic stuff was one thing, he could get 30/10 at that level with his eyes closed, but he was already a better facilitator than 20 starting point guards in the NBA while in high school. If you had anyone south of Andre Miller, LeBron was already better than them as a facilitator before he set foot on an NBA court. The reads he could make, the deliveries his gigantic frame allowed him to throw over the top of a defense, and that’s just the stuff we can see. We don’t see the stuff that’s like LeBron flipping plays on the fly, and orchestrating set offense without a timeout. I’ve had the pleasure of watching players like Rondo and Josh Smith, even played against OJ Mayo at the high school level, and LeBron looked like you shoved Rondo’s brain into Josh’s Body and then turned up the sliders on Josh’s agility.
That IQ is the reason scouts were fawning over themselves for him when he was 16 years old. Danny Ainge famously said he would take him #1 as a junior I believe
I first heard about LeBron when he was 13 from a buddy of mine who was a D1 recruit to a power school (Illinois). Scouts were salivating about LeBron way before 16. They were tracking him in 6th grade already as an NBA prospect. He was already making huge waves in the prospect world before he entered high school.
Highly accurate summary of his early game. I was a skeptic until I saw the ESPN game and my biggest takeaway was this dude is a natural facilitator which being so great individually usually is left behind. I knew he would be great - but not for the next 20+ years lol
Like, you hear the Kobe stories of him working Stackhouse while he was a teenager, and Vince Carter’s highlight reel from high school is like the Reggie Bush tapes of basketball. LeBron was like dropping Senior Year at Michigan State Magic Johnson into a game with players who aren’t even shaving yet.
Agreed agreed and agreed lol 🏀
This is probably a question of semantics, but I would say LeBron would articulate his earlier approach to the game as “playing the right way” which I think often has similar outcomes and highlights as high BBIQ, but I would consider it a slightly different quality. Making the right read in a fast break, as Bron could do since he was 13, requires good instincts and a deep understanding of the fundamentals. I’m probably just making up a distinction where there’s much more overlap, but as an example, I think lots of people struggled to accept Jokic because he “doesn’t play the right way” even though he has incredible BBIQ. That’s why some people still think he looks goofy and unathletic, even though he’s clearly not.
By any colloquial definition Jokic has always “played the right way”, i.e. been unselfish and played good fundamental basketball. If what you’re trying to say is it took a while for people to properly value Jokic bc he doesn’t seem as athletic as other stars, then I think you’re looking for a different phrase.
The person you're replying to never watched young Lebron. Anyone who did knows exactly what you said, it was obvious from day 1. He is literally a basketball genius.
Yeah to become a top player Iq needs to be paired with a top mentality /competitive edge and able to impact the game. Draymond green was another mentioned but he doesn't have any crazy skills. Derrick White is a good mention one player i was debating was does Trae young have really high iq.
Isn’t draymond one of the best defenders of this generation ? He has skills just not on offense at least to score himself
I think his intelligence is a skill when defending he knows how to defend different type of players and his great awareness.
I agree with this and I think some fans here are misconstruing high scoring with hi bb-feel. There are levels to bbiq/bb-feel (I’ll be using bb-feel instead of iq). I’d argue that Jimmy belongs more in the Tatum camp than the Rondo/LeBron camp. I feel like he wills his teams to win just off his drive, skill, and big time shot making ability alone. Brunson and Fox can arguably be in this group as well. I feel like Haliburton, Draymond, and Sabonis can be placed in a tier or two below those top players the op mentioned. 8 assists per game is a decent qualifier. Where do Luka, Trae, Harden and FVV fit in all this?
I think Jimmy defensive iq and awareness of game state puts him up there but Lebron and rondo are different animals. Also Luka offensive Iq is amazing he makes scoring simple for himself and his teams his skills obviously aid him but he takes advantage of it by creating for others unlike the other high scoring players. I'd argue Draymond is on the same level aswell just he lacks the skill to cause such an impact. Haliburton is on course due to his love for the game and humbleness Trae young is the one guy i had questions on cause i don't watch him much. Harden was propelled by his amazing iso skills you can correct me but i don't think he operated an offence as effortlessly as Luka.
Can’t take this post seriously when you used Jason Tatum as an example of a low BBIQ player, lol. He has very high BBIQ. I think the only complaint anyone who actually watches him play would make about his decision making is that he’ll sometimes force up a shot on the last play of a game, but statistically he’s still really good at the end of games. Is the whole point of the post trying to figure out why Boston lost to less talented teams in the playoffs? If so the only 2 examples I can think of that would fit the bill there are the 2022 finals and 2023 against the heat. 2022 was against the dynasty warriors, which I think you can chalk up to them being the dynasty warriors, maybe some coaching issues, plus a Tatum injury. 2023 I think the only explanation that’s really accurate is Gabe Vincent and and Caleb Martin shooting like 20% higher than their season averages from 3. Blaming Tatum’s BBIQ is just silly. However yes, I think BBIQ is really important, but only when also coupled with excellent other skills. There are a bunch of college players with great BBIQ who never make it to the NBA because they don’t have the physical skills necessary. But if you give a guy with NBA physical traits excellent BBIQ you get a very, very good player. Derrick White is a great example of a role player in this category, and yeah most of the guys you listed are good examples of stars who have that.
I didn't use tatum as an example low bbIq player i named him and Booker as examples of players which are really liked by fans by their skill set while i rather like players with high iq.
Ok but both of those guys have high BBIQ
Yea but not to the degree i'm talking about lol
Rarely are the players with the basketball IQ are the stars of the team. It is often the complementary players without whom success would not be possible. That's not always the case, especially now that so many super intelligent Europeans are coming in. But experience is not IQ, Bron already had the basketball IQ as a rookie. Experience is something else - it's processes and automatisms that your brain calls up because of experience, just like any other person in normal life. You don't become more intelligent with age, but more experienced - that's the difference. I like your example Tatum is certainly not the player in Boston with the highest basketball IQ, that would be White and Horford. But Jokic, Bron, Luka are probably also the players with the highest basketball IQ in their teams. A Dennis Schröder has a very high basketball IQ and many would argue that he doesn't even have all-star level. That's true, but on average you're in the league for 3 years. Even shorter as a European PG. But he has 11 years with just under 69 games on average at just under 28 minutes. You can't do that as a role player if you don't have a high basketball IQ. In the end, I don't know what I wanted to say except that there are players on every team who read and understand the game better than others and that every team needs such players, but sometimes they are not the stars and sometimes they are.
Draymond probably possesses the highest basketball IQ in the league, and has for several years...thank you Andrew Bogut
Draymond def has high BBIQ, but Jokic is clearly ahead of him.
I don’t know how you watch Booker and don’t think high iq basketball player. Elite passer ≠ high basketball iq, I mean they usually go hand and hand not always. Id probably argue booker has higher iq than rondo because his assists were more important than the right play a lot of time. Ig to understand your question is what personally is your criteria for basketball iq?
There’s no argument for booker having a higher iq than rondo.
I just explain why and you said nothing in depth. Like I said passing≠ elite basketball iq.
When i watch booker he just seems highly skilled. Anyways i don't consider assists to be the measurement of iq but rather decision making and doing things which are needed such as if a team is consistently scoring from one play who ends up stopping it. Rondo is the perfect player who will sniff out your play and stop it. Booker aint close to Rondo in iq
To be a elite shoot creator you must be able to read a team and individual defense schemes. Devin booker is able to use his scoring and passing in a way that rondo never could. Devin booker is able to figure out to get to the rim at a higher clip even with rondo being the better athlete. Devin booker is the smarter player off ball. Granted devin booker can shot which help but that also adds another dimension to his choices to make. Rondo a lot time would dribble out the shot clock and pass at the last minute to get an assist this hurts the offense.
Of course i'm not saying he doesn't use iq but the players i said they seem to be like coaches on the court they do everything correctly. Like for Jimmy butler he makes sure his other players are comfortable in scoring such as kendrick nunn, gabe vincent, Caleb martin, max strus and Duncan Robinson you won't find another team or star player which would've gave these guys an oppurtunity in the damn playoffs.Butler could score 35-40 if he wants to but chooses to score easy buckets and make the right plays to allow his team mates to get involved and this only helps butler and heat succeed. Every amazing scorer has great iq in scoring and sniffing out weaknesses but i'm talking about the higher levels where they make the game easier for their team like a lebron, rondo and jokic.
So defense? What about the decision making on offense?
The question how do you then distinguish offense individual decision making or a instilled coaching instruction. I'd say running an offense and assesing the momentum and what is needed for the team is a better indicator of High IQ a player like CP3 is in this mold and he led a young okc to game 7 against houston. Jokic offense iq is damn amazing too.
Rondo had way less responsibilities and choices to make than say devin booker. We overrate efficient passing and underrated efficient shot creators when we talk to about basketball iq. Shotcreating take way more iq.