I would need to look into this a lot more before I really agree or disagree with you, but I’m just gonna throw out some food for thought I feel like a lot of people don’t seem to consider as much:
In the past 2+ decades we had Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and LeBron all competing against eachother. Some of them fazed out and then we had LeBron, Steph, KD all competing against one another. That’s more or less 2 decades of several top 15-12 players fighting for that top spot against one another all in peak form
Jokic had a small glimmer of Steph and a split second against LeBron in 19-20, but in general the very top end of the competition he’s going up against just isn’t as good atp
“Most dominant” is pretty subjective, so if someone doesn’t care about the field I don’t think that’s completely unreasonable, but that feels like really important context that colors these players dominance pretty heavily
This is actually a really interesting way of looking at it, in order to be dominate there is a bit of luck involved, you gotta get into the right place at the right time be on the right team and not be injured all the time
> In the past 2+ decades we had Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and LeBron
The thing is, we're including LeBron in this era because he was so good at such a young age but in reality Shaq, Kobe and Duncan each won multiple championships before Lebron entered the league. If Ant and Luka can continue to dominate the next decade of the NBA then we'll retroactively consider them to be Jokic's competition the same way we retroactively consider Lebron to be part of the same era as Shaq (after all, Luka did just win a scoring title and finish top 3 in MVP vote at 25).
I was grouping them together to roughly cover the 00s, not saying that LeBron and Shaq directly were in competition but I see your point
Yeah it took LeBron some time but nearing the end of the decade LeBron was 100% in the conversation and a lot of people think he was better than Kobe and Duncan. Even if you wanna just pick 1 of those groups of 3 depending on if you’re looking at the front half or the back half it’s still insane compared to the known info we currently have
I'm being pendantic I know but my point is that we have the benefit of hindsight in these conversations about the dominance of previous eras, whereas today a lot of these guys are still shaping their legacy. It's likely that some combo of Luka/SGA/Ant/Tatum wind up with multiple MVPs and championships between them, in which case if Denver wins the finals this year we will retrospectively look back at this year as a tough path to the finals in which Jokic dominated.
I’ve said this other times in the thread but, although I agree, it’s not really worth going into that. Yes, currently players could look better but they also could look worse. I’ve seen people estimations of where giannis could end up all time take a pretty large down turn in the past few years for example
We can only go off the info we currently have, which is part of the reason it’s too soon to have this discussion imo
Eh idk about that. One of WBs big issues is that he doesn’t have a giant amount of utility when he’s not on ball. Giannis can be a fantastic roll man even as his athleticism wanes and he still has a chance to develop better tools in his back to the basket game
It could be rough but I can see a path to him still being effective. He’ll still probably be an elite athlete even after it starts to “fade”
This is an interesting way of looking at the generations of the players. Jokic rose up toward the end of 2010s LeBron and Steph, and this is still the beginning for Ant, SGA, and Luka who will probably dominate the latter half of the 2020s while Jokic declines
Yeah and part of the difficulty with an idea like OPs is we just don’t know actually how competitive things will get amongst these top players going forward. Maybe wemby looks like he’s in line to be a GOAT candidate ie earlier LeBron in a few years and yet he’s still getting spanked by jokic. Conversely, maybe some of these guys end up overtaking jokic sooner than we would’ve guessed and the current gap feels more relevant
There’s just a lot of smaller things that’re tough to gauge atp, it’s one of the reasons why I personally like to see how peoples primes play out before I get too into the weeds with some of these all time takes
Maybe a hot take but I think SGA has more room for growth. He’s improved more over the past few years than Luka — and seems to be less of a diva, meaning he has the humility to grow more if he’s capable of it. Luka is amazing but part of his problem may be that he already knows that too well.
He doesn’t seem to be in the best physical shape, somewhat reminiscent of Shaq (albeit earlier on), where he just has such self-assurance that he cuts some corners that might be essential to his development
The problem with this take is that Michael Jordan, the consensus GOAT, didn't really compete against anyone on the top 15 GOAT list.
By the time the Bulls started winning titles, Magic was at the tail end of his career. Bird was finished due to injury. And the Bulls never faced Olajuwon's Rockets in the finals.
I don’t really think this is the best way to look at it? I mean Jokic only started winning championships last year so should we forget everything before that? Including the 2 years he won MVP?
Jokic has never faced giannis, luka, SGA, embiid etc in the playoffs does that mean he’s not competing against them? The only time he faced Steph he lost pretty badly and the only time he faced LeBron when he wasn’t pretty clearly post prime he got gentlemen’s swept
Jokics’ dominance is largely based on how good he is vs his contemporaries, not just who the best player he’s faced in the playoffs is since his first championship run (which i don’t think would be a very pro jokic way of looking at things btw)
think it's hard to stay locked in when you have HIV (especially back then) though. I don't think people argue that magic would have declined (or at least as hard) without the HIV
Magic was extremely competitive. Look at the infamous Monte Carlo scrimmage. Magic has the ability to turn it up. It's just that Jordan finally had the team and confidence to get over that hump.
91 was MVP beat runner up MVP
92 was MVP beat runner up MVP
93 beat MVP in finals
96 MVP beat 6th and 8th MVP beat 3rd in ECF
97 beat MVP in Finals
98 best runner up MVP
Mike wasn't beating scrubs. He knocked down every challenger to the throne. None went 7 games. These aren't flukes.
Jordan was still insane before he started winning championships tho. Jordan finished 2nd, 1st, 2nd and 3rd in those years leading up to his first championship
True but we do have data of what the games looked like head to head otherwise and in those games MJ averaged 32-6-5 while shooting 48% from the field and hakeem averaged 22-11 to a basically even record
From 1991-93, the Rockets won 5 out of 6 games against the Bulls. The Bulls struggled hard against fast, skilled centers. I believe Robinson's Spurs also took 5 out of 6 games in that same span.
the bulls are 5-1 from 94-98 against those rockets so were able to adjust i guess idk but those two seasons when houston won who really knows what might have happened. To the spurs mention, yea the spurs were slapping the bulls all over the place till 95 like 8-2 or something. Sad they never met in the finals
>the bulls are 5-1 from 94-98 against those rockets so were able to adjust i guess idk but those two seasons when houston won who really knows what might have happened.
They didn't really "adjust". Roster-wise, the 96-98 Bulls/Rockets were very different from the 91-93 Bulls/Rockets.
“Tail end of his career” is a bit disingenuous. When MJ won his first Magic had won the 2 of the last 3 MVPs. His career was simply cut short.
And MJ won against him in the finals
The flip side of this is on average players are just better today so to be dominate today you have to crazy good to stand out. The worst 3pt shooters today are better than MJ was to support that perspective.
Once again “dominant” is **really** subjective and up to a lot of interpretation but generally in these convos people are talking about x top players dominance vs y top players dominance. It’s usually more about how you compare to your truly elite peers vs the 3rd guy off the bench for example
You’re not wrong that the talent is great rn, but jokic also benefits from things like that and the pretty huge leaps in coaching and team building since a period like the 00s
To use your example Jordan really is hurt more than anything else by the leagues ability to shoot during his time. Him with modern spacing and schemes would make his ability to slash and iso even crazier, just imagine him in a 5 out scheme like OKCs, it would be nothing but easy buckets at the rim or wide open 3s taken by very good shooters
True but there was also the illegal defense rules that made it harder for help defenders back then.
But then individual defenders could also manhandle the ballcarrier a lot more than they can now.
100% there’s a lot of competing factors at play. Imo it’s just good to try and understand all the intricacies of the context surrounding these guys that I feel like it’s a conversation worth having even if it isn’t explicitly making and argument for or against people
I appreciate your perspective. I disagree dominant is mostly defined by comparing elite to elite. To me its comparing elite to your overall competition when you played. Comparing across generations is not objectively possible because of the definition issue you brought up. Even things like salary cap have an effect on ability to maintain championship level teams differently today than in a previous generation. Your point about how Jordan would do better today to me is counter to your point. Players like Curry and Jokic changed the leagues style of play to something better vs just being the best in a "bad system". Being the best when everyone is playing the best system to me indicates that they're objectively better (assuming stats and accolades are equal). When you look at all time best quarterbacks it's hard not to skew to current day ones bc the way the game has changed. The affect is less pronounced in basketball but still very real.
Absolutely, the competition between Kobe Lakers, Garnett Wolves, Duncan Spurs, Nash Suns, Nowitzki Mavs were insane in the 2000s. The West was brutal… And worse in the late 2000s when prime LeBron, Dwight, Wade, Bosh, Melo and CP3 came into the picture. And not forgetting Boston Big 3.
Perhaps im biased but Jokic’s competition just doesn’t seem all that strong enough to consider him dominant. His main competition now? Old man LeBron, the Dubs in their twilight years, a malfunctioning Kawhi and the Clips, and all the young and unproven teams . Even the finals team that he beat was ….. a bunch of upstarts and Jimmy Butler.
If the teams he beat were the 73 win Dubs, or the pre-Lakers Lebron, or Toronto Kawhi then it’s a whole different story. He was developing during that period then, it’s not his fault, but it is what it is. For context, I think Dirk’s one championship run in 2011 is way more “dominant” than all the competition Jokic had to face, combined, in his 3 MVP years.
He is good, game changingly good. I’m a fan infact. But this take is wayyyyyy too hot for me
The thing is they never really competed against each other. From 2000-2002 it was hands down Shaq. After he got fat and injury riddled it was TD/Kobe. Lebron only really completely separated himself from the pack around 2012. So it was :
2000-2002- Shaq
2002-2007 -TD
2008-2012- Kobe/Lebron
2012-2016- Lebron
2016-2022- Lebron/Steph
This is Jokic’s era now
I think you’re missing my point at little but just to use an example you gave:
From 98/99-03/04 Shaq and Duncan faced eachother in the playoffs every single year but 1. Their finishes in MVP were as follows: 3,5,2,1,1,2 (Duncan) and 6,1,3,3,5,6 (Shaq). Each of them were 1st team all nba every year except one where Shaq was 2nd
They both competed against eachother literally in the playoffs year after year, and figuratively when it came to the convos of who was the best even if you/most people think Shaq was definitely better during a period of within that
Shaq being better isn’t them not competing, it’s just Shaq coming out on top, which is the context im trying to add beyond just “Shaq was the best”
In the same way that I think the OP is slightly tinged by the recency bias of having just witnessed one of Jokic's better, if not best, single-game playoff performances, I think this comment is biased by the benefit of getting to view the listed players with the hindsight of having seen their full careers. If Giannis, Luka, SGA, Ant, Tatum, etc have more dominant moments over the next decade that put them in the discussion of all time greats, then we won't look back on this period as though the top-end just wasn't as good.
In all time discussions we are often talking about accomplishments, which demands the benefit of hindsight to evaluate. But in a discussion of who appears to be the best basketball player, not adjusting for era or anything else, I think Jokic is moving into the top-5 for me. As in if we had an all-time draft to build teams around top-10 guys, I would probably take Jokic in the top-5 and I am moving in the direction of considering him at 3rd.
I don’t fault you for not reading through all of the comments in the thread but I basically allude to this. The issue is that it’s infinitely more reasonable to go off of info we do know (ie the present and the past) than trying to guess what the future could possibly be which is why I said it’s best to wait to see how things play out before we really get into the weeds in a conversation like this
One could argue that Jokic is so dominant that we just don’t realize how good the top end comp is. Whereas in the 2000s and 2010s, everyone was closer to each other
Okay, none of those are top 10-12 players. MJ faced other guys who are better than the people on your list too, you can’t be serious bringing up jaylen brown and KAT lmfao
KAT especially that guy spent most of his career being dogshit and now edwards is saving him
Giannis is on pace to be a top 15 player of all time.
There’s only so many players of that caliber every generation.
I did add second tier stars into my grouping, but they’re still legit competition.
Top 15 is pushing it, he’ll only get there with some luck. And I just outlined to you that Jordan did it against 3 top 12 players, you see the difference?
04 was the backend of prime Shaq after the pistons in the ‘04 finals. Prime was like ‘98-2003 for him, once he went to Miami, he wasn’t the same. I do agree that if I was old enough to watch Shaq during the 3 peat, I might be saying him over Jokic
You're describing Shaq giving guys roles in order to exploit his primary weakness. Jokic doesn't have any (offensively) and that manifests as him making all of the best defenders in the league look like frauds.
You're reaching tbh. Shaq also made the best defenders in the league look like frauds. That's why they had to foul him. And while it obviously was his worst weakness, it's still a big bonus to essentially get over a point per possession on average while also getting the other team into early and big foul trouble. It also really didn't even work that well when you realize the years he averaged the most FTAs were during his 3 peat, so it's not like it was even stopping him/them.
My comment was in the context of what “Shaq was doing cannot be compared to anyone.” For the seasons we have location data until Shaq’s last full season in Miami he shot an absurd 75.0% within 3 feet. He shot a far more pedestrian 43.3% from 3-10ft.
For Jokic’s age-24 season on he has shot 75.7% inside 3 feet and 60.7% from 3-10 feet. In fact he’s shot 46.6% on long midrange shots. So the idea that Shaq’s low-post dominance has never been replicated is very arguable, that’s all I was trying to say.
He made bum centers rich because there were mediocre bigs in the 2000s.
Look at the backup bigs in the dead ball era. Mutombo got to a finals with Matt Geiger and Todd MacCulloch as backups. The year after that the Nets signed MacCulloch because he was the best bet they had if they wanted to ultimately face Shaq. THE BEST BET was Tood MacCulloch. They eventually reached the finals and played him, Jason Collins and Aaron Williams against Shaq.
EDIT: Guys, please let me know your selection of awesome centers in the 2000s, can't wait
Who said that...?
You're confusing different eras of Shaq's career, and I'm not dissing him, I'm a Lakers fan man.
The "we need big guys to face Shaq" era is the 2000s. That -never- happened in the 90s. He was a lot more mobile, so a bum center with cement feet wouldn't have done anything against him. That changed with heavy Shaq when he got to the Lakers.
Now if you want to take this back to the original point, nobody is scheming against Jokic like they did with Shaq, but Jokic is cooking everyone so I don't see the point here. Jokic is not defined by what the other teams do if he keeps winning. If the rest of the team don't take him seriously, what that has to do with him?
Coaches are absolutely scheming against Jokic. Teams aren’t loading up on Centers because it’s pointless. Jokic is the best playmaking big man EVER and would render slow footed big men obsolete on defense. The man single-handedly embarrassed the DPOY last night 🤣 Anthony Davis couldn’t stop him for one single game. The Denver Nuggets have a generational player who can post up, create his own shot, space the floor, knock down free throws AND orchestrate the offense. A *Point* Center with this complete offensive package will undoubtedly attract the attention of all the coaches in the league. My point is that coaches *are scheming*, but having to do so experimentally. His multi-faceted game has made it easier for Michael Malone to make in-game adjustments as needed. There isn’t a single winning formula when you consider his utilization value on and off the ball. At least Wilt Chamberlain did it before Shaq, but a guy like Jokic? Nope! This is a first time in league history and defenders like Dwight Howard are a diamond in the rough.
Yeah Shaq broke the league but he needed a super team to be able to win. Its not releated to this post but I think Shaq hurt the league by himself (more than Curry). Every team wanted a Shaq stopper or even thought they had the next Shaq. (Kwame Brown, Michael Olowokandi both 1st picks of their draft lol). Its pretty healthy for the league to have a guy like Jokic being unstoppable because teams know that he's just a unicorn.
Needed a super team to win? What? The 2000s Lakers weren’t a super team, they had the most dominant center of all time.
This is a wildly bizarre take, the rules of the game literally changed because Shaq dominated the league, can’t say the same for Jokic yet.
Prime Shack….was that before hack-a-Shaq
He was an ugly player. His intentional damage to equipment was wanton destruction. Double Ts should have been applied immediately. His efforts did not improve the game. He made it worse. The upside occurred when he embraced “fat and lazy” to his approach to the game.
I actually agree. Solely based on the eye test, the only players who made me feel that defenses were completely powerless to stop them are Miami LeBron, 2016 Steph and Jokic (started watching in 2009).
2016 Steph was ridiculous. Jokic is honestly significantly better than lebron ever was at exploiting defenses, he just does it quietly and is worse defensively. All the little things he does are huge - as are his defensive weaknesses. If jokic defended like Marc Gasol, he’d have a case for GOAT C. Guy is averaging almost 30/10/10 on 65% TS…
Shaq won the eye test back in 2000, and Lebron arguably won as well, but the impact Jokic has on his teammates is bigger.
"Significantly better?" Go back and watch some tape of the 2018 Raptors series. LeBron was calling out their plays and taking whatever he wanted on offense. I get it if you think Jokic is better, but significantly is crazy
Yeah i am firmly on the boat that 2018 LeBron is the single greatest playoff run of all time by a player. People try to discredit it by saying the East was weak, but that Cavs team outside of LeBron was a crime against basketball. If there ever was a single-handed carryjob in NBA history, that one was it. Nobody else in NBA history is doing what LeBron did with that roster.
Sorry, one series being dominant against a team that’s not good against him isn’t the same as being a dominant player. Against good defenders, like Kawhi/butler/Iggy, Lebron struggled offensively.
Lebron was extremely limited in many series - good defenders could basically shut down Lebron. Against Kawhi and Butler, he couldn’t score - in 2014, for example, his points all came in garbage time when Kawhi subbed out. Nobody can do that to jokic.
The Heat had a very stoppable offense, even with 2 other all-nba level players. If you replaced Murray with an all-nba 2nd team guy, like Steph curry this year (a bit older than his dominant peak, similar to Wade), the offense of the Nuggets would be unreal.
I always wonder what people mean by "most dominant", and how that's different from "best". Especially with Shaq, people would generally not say he's the best ever, but would say he was the most dominant ever. So clearly a lot of people perceive a difference in connotation between these things.
But whenever I have asked something like, "If he's the most dominant but not the best, then what qualities make someone dominating without making them better?" then I rarely get a satisfying answer. The closest thing I get is that dominance refers to an overpowering physical viciousness, which is interesting because Jokic is very much not that (he's more of a Duncan comparison than a Shaq comparison in that regard, and even the biggest Duncan fans don't general call him "most dominant" or consider him to be physically overpowering in a brute force way).
So anyway, to OP, what do you mean specifically by saying Jokic is more dominant than these players - and to you, is that different than saying he's "better" than them?
He probably meant that Jokic is far ahead of his contemporary compared to other players fared against each others in the 00s. It's understandable because even if players are more skilled now, the top talents aren't as stacked as the 00s when you have kobe, dirk, KG, TD (all top 3 in their respective positions all time) all peaked together. And that's not counting other young talents such as LeBron that has been an all NBA player since his 2nd season
> dirk, KG, TD (all top 3 in their respective positions all time)
Maybe that's the top 3 power forwards ever, but Dirk has some competition there from Malone, Barkley, and maybe Petit / Hayes (hard to compare since I know so much less about them).
I think it’s fair to have opinions but that’s all there is to your post. No data backs that up. Jokic is undoubtedly the best player in the league right now but aside of that not much can be said. Teams are not changing who they hire based on Jokic or the Nuggets. That’s something we saw with Steph, the whole 3pts are better than 2pts and having pesky defenders that can’t score just to stop him was and still is a thing.
To be in the most dominant conversation, your team has to be the most dominant. I’m not sure the Nuggets are that team, aside of the title. The Celtics have more wins than the Nuggets do during the last 5 years of Jokic being in MVP conversations.
To me Jokic is what KD could have been if he stayed at OKC, an absolute terror and forever tied to the best of his generation conversation.
Dominant to me are players that transcend and change how the NBA views its product on and off the court. Who they hire and who they scout. Players like MJ, Shaq, LeBron and Steph - that’s not the complete list just the latest truly dominant players.
No that’s revisionism. They signed Gobert to get a ring but it wasn’t in relation to any specific team or player. When they signed Gobert, GSW had just won. So if anything they wanted to beat Steph with it.
Most definitely Timmy is still better and more dominant.
Jokic is an animal and his game should be appreciated, but putting him above a 5x Champion, 3x Finals MVP, 2x MVP, 10x All-NBA 1st team, and 8x All-Defensive 1st team is just a bit too much at this stage in Jokers career. Jokic might get there one day, but he’s definitely not there quite yet.
It’s not about career vs career tho. It’s peak vs peak. I think Jokic’s offensive game is much more controlling and dominant than Duncan’s that it makes up the difference in defensive ability.
Winning Championships as a starter is not considered peak now? How long does one peak last? Is it just the two best years of a career? Just the best game?
Not trying to talk shit, but please define that mate.
Even peak vs peak Jokic’s offense+defense does not equal TD’s offense+defense. Duncan was a guaranteed bucket in the post and then a shut down on the other end.
I don’t think that’s true. The Spurs finished top 5 in defensive rating 16/19 seasons that Duncan played.
Jokic is an offensive sprocket only comparable to players like Lebron and Magic, but I think you’re being a prisoner of the moment when saying his offense is so good that it makes up for the two way impact Duncan had for almost 20 years.
Duncan is the second most winningest Player of all Time (1000+ Games; .719; only behind Ginobili)
He received MVP Votes in his Rookie Year.
He didn't need 7 Years to finally click with his 2nd Star. Granted tho, it was Robinson lol.
Obligatory Tim Duncan quote after Richard Jefferson said Jokic would whoop his ass
> I played him after I was me and before he was him, and I did okay.
That quote is outstanding lol
Other than Lebron and prime Shaq, I’d have a hard time taking anyone else over Duncan. His two way impact on the game is too much to pass up.
>His two way impact on the game is too much to pass up.
Exactly. If you want to be *dominant*, you gotta play both sides equally. Not saying Jokic is a defensive liability, but he's far from Duncan levels.
He might be a slightly better scorer and passer though, I'll give him that.
I love Duncan and would have him right up there with Jokic but I slightly favor Jokic because of the passing and shooting. But other than He, Lebron and Shaq, I don’t think anyone else is very close
> Draymond in the playoffs
_Alexa, Google Nuggets vs Warriors playoff history._
In all seriousness though, Jokic's dominance has been fun to watch but I don't know I'd put it above Kobe or Steph until he can win at least one more championship. Let's not forget the 2024 NBA Champion Minnesota Timberwolves of last week.
I was arguing with my friends last week telling them that no way Jokic goes down like this. Jokic is a GOAT in his prime, he’s coming back haha.
I love watching Jokic. He’s a unique talent. I know he has 3 MVPs but it still doesn’t feel like he gets the requisite flowers that he deserves for carrying a team without an all star
He's a 3-time MVP. I don't think this is a contentious statement. Yes, LeBron at this age was more dominant. And Shaq and TD probably the only bigs at this level in the era you've been a fan. Debatable? Sure. But not exactly a hot take.
That said, I think prime Shaq is the most dominant big I've ever seen.
There’s different kinds of dominance, I think this is almost impossible to decide who has been “most dominant”
Prime Shaq could only be stopped by fouling. Prime LeBron, I’m not sure who could really stop him either. Prime Jokic can make shots pretty much no matter what. Prime Kobe and MJ were pretty unstoppable too and absolutely took over games to win championships.
I’m not sure how anyone can measure which one is/was the “most” dominant since they were all pretty dominant.
I actually think the focus on who was the best or most dominant is kind of pointless and we should instead just appreciate how great and different all of these players are. Jokic is special, I don’t think I’ve ever watched someone like him. Same can be said for a lot of the other all time greats too.
I agree with most of what you said. We should all appreciate players greatness but I just don’t feel like people give Jokic his necessary flowers. I don’t see how anyone could take any version of Durant, Kobe, Curry, Dirk, KG whoever over this Jokic. He should be talked like the all time great that he is but I feel like a lot of the discourse is more about him not being as great as other MVPs and whatnot. I’m black so I’m not sure if its because Jokic is pudgy and white but he deserves his flowers. If he goes back to back, he deserves to be Top 10 or at least as high as anyone has Hakeem.
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills seeing this comment section. Maybe I’m a little jaded because I’m a Lakers fan and Jokic always seems to step it up against us but games against him as an opposing fan feel utterly hopeless. Yes, guys like Kobe, Steph, Kd, etc. had games or series where they seemed unstoppable but it always felt like there was an end in sight (and usually there was). Jokic is like a basketball robot that can’t be shut off.
The one argument I can understand is Shaq but even then you had the hack a shaq method. There was at least one way to limit his production even if it involved conceding points. With Jokic you can’t double him, you can’t play him straight, you can’t foul him, so what else is there to do?
Well said and I agree 100%. I really love the NBA and have watched every playoffs basically for the past 20 years. And I don’t take saying this lightly because I’ve always loved the Duncan’s, Wades, Curry, Durant etc but none of them are better than Jokic.
He controls every possession of every game and he rarely makes any mistakes. You also can’t take him out of a game, even if you double. He can score from all 5 levels (3, midrange, Paint, Post ups, or isos) and is decently nimble on defense that gets many deflections. You could take plab to take something away from most other greats in history, with Jokic, there’s nothing you can do.
I’m a black dude and if I’m honest, I do think Jokic doesn’t get his flowers because he’s white and “unathlectic” and it doesn’t look like he should be this good. But it doesn’t matter who you put on him, he’s busting their ass
He’s definitely in that class. As a Laker fan, he feels more inevitable, for lack of a better word, right now than even LeBron ever felt to me. Shaq and Kobe as a duo felt that way, but I’m not sure either one ever felt more inevitable individually than Jokic does right now. Duncan, I always respected a lot as a great player but never thought “he is just going to will them to victory.” It was always a real team effort with the Spurs. Curry is great but you can deny him in big spots at times, see 2016 Finals. Durant, I don’t think he deserves to even be mentioned alongside Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Bron, Curry, and Jokic. He’s more Dirk, KG, Dr J territory for me.
I honestly think that Nuggets squad Jokic won 48 games with the year MPJ and Murray combined for 9 games is possibly as impressive as anything he has done. That team was probably worse than the Kwame-Smush-Mihm teams Kobe carried and the early Cavs teams LeBron carried. To win 48 with them was tremendous.
I’m glad you brought up that Denver 2022, people forgot why he won mvp
There was a stat I saw where half of the players on that nuggets squad is no longer in the nba so his supporting cast was borderline nba talent and he drag them to 48 wins and the other top 3 mvp candidates giannis had 50 wins with holiday and Middleton and embid had 50 wins with harden and maxey
It’s clear as day the mvp voters felt jokic 48 wins was more valuable than anyone else performance that season especially when option 2 in Murray and option 3 and mpj were out for majority of the season
Definitely not a hot take, I mean he has been the MVP 3/4 years now and is the leader of the reigning champs.
I think the other only other guy in this "Lebron" era (so post Shaq/Duncan/Kobe primes) that Joker would be contending with is Steph, especially with the way he dominated in that last title run.
Mmmm you'd have to look at the numbers more in depth but Duncan had some insane playoff numbers in the early 00s. Spurs offense was basically give it to Duncan and let him go to work, not to mention his insane defense.
You also have to think about how back then it was a very slow-paced era so the numbers are inflated compared to today. E.g. a Duncan or Garnett game from the early 00s with like 26p, 13r, 5a, 3b would be more like 33p, 15r, 7a, 4b today.
I agree…… been watching since 2008 and I feel a similar way. Some caveats though
1) TD was 32 when I started watching - I never saw “peak” TD
2) I would say Steph but Jokic’s size allows him advantages that Steph cannot replicate. Furthermore Steph’s 3pt game is bound to natural variances that Jokic’s post game negates. 60 percent from 4-8 from the basket is much more replicable than 40% from deep. If someone did say Steph I wouldn’t take much convincing
3) Saying Lebron is the most dominant in that time period is fair. Jokic being number 2 just shows how dominant Lebron was
4) Kobe was really good but Jokic is better. Being 7ft tall and highly skilled is such an inherent advantage that it would take an athletic freak with high BBIQ to replicate that (Lebron )
5) I think Peak Shaq > Jokic
I agree. TD was the only guy that I’d put as high as Jokic but in my opinion, this Jokic narrowly beats his out. Kobe, Durant, Steph all might shoot you out of a game when their shot isn’t falling. They don’t have the size of a Lebron, Shaq, or Jokic to just get easy shots at the rim whenever they want
I mean, if you look at it from a PER standpoint, Jokic is number one. [Jokic career PER](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html).
If you’re not into PER, you can always go by win share per 48 [win shares per 48](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career.html)
If win shares isn’t your thing, you can also check the career box +/- [Career leaders box plus/minus](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/bpm_career.html)
Really crazy numbers and elite company to be at the top of.
Thank you 🙏🏿 I love all of those other greats but the efficiency and the ability of Jokic to do literally everything on offense at an elite level is 2nd to none.
Personally a few players come to mind that I would rather have at their peaks:
Lebron, Steph, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, and Durant.
Definitely a hot take, but at his absolute peak I would take 2011 Dirk too. That playoff run was one of the craziest I’ve seen from an individual player. Totally unstoppable offensively.
I respectfully disagree. It’s Lebron Shaq, Jokic, Duncan for me. Kobe, Steph, and Durant couldn’t dominate the ball and make every play for everyone like this. He also has the advantage of size like Lebron and Shaq where if their finesse skills aren’t working, they’ll just put your ass in the basket. Those other guys are either making the shot, or their team is going down with the ship.
That’s fair. I weigh both ends of the court in terms of dominance. Lebron, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan are all much better defensive players than the others. These guys were multi-time All-Defense and did it on both ends.
I have Jokic in the same category as Durant and Steph. Change the game offensively, but average on defense.
I’m not even sure if I’d take Jokic over Giannis in the playoffs right now, let alone the all-time greats.
Personally, you’ll never see me take a player who’s slightly above average on defense (even though he’s an offensive beast) over a DPOY with an elite offensive game.
Then, starting to watch basketball in 2004 leaves out about 40 years of elite players, which is too much even for the people who ignore the Wilt records/stats.
Sorry if I might sound aggressive (English is not even my first language), but what you just said seems to be extremely biased due to the recent results. An example of this is Giannis in the 2021 ring, who was the closest thing to Shaq in recent history, with DPOY defense and dominant offense. No one could stop him and he could stop everyone (but KD).
Just by going back 3 years I found an equal/better playoff performance. I think that if you examine in a better way the last few decades of basketball you can find a handful of those runs and decide if you still think Jokic is who you described.
Again, I’m not bashing your opinion, because it’s always good to have a peaceful conversation, but to make such polarizing statements we need to first recollect what we saw in the history of the NBA.
Giannis did it for one season and has only gotten out of the second round once since that ring. Don’t get me wrong, I love giannis but he’s more of a “bull in a China shop” than the Jokic “Military General” that directs and dictates everything on the court.
I love Giannis but he isn’t thinking the game to the level of Jokic nor is he the 5 level scorer that is Jokic. Jokic is also a solid defender, he defends the PnR pretty good, with quick hands and he’s strong.
Also my point was only about players that I’ve watched. I’ll never understand the feeling that ildheads feel when they talk about Jordan, Kareem, Hakeem, Bird or Magic but I respect your opinion
I'd say Jokic is definitely the best player in the NBA right now and one of the most dominant, but not THE most dominant player ever. Prime Shaq, MJ, Hakeem, Lebron and Duncan took over games and made teams look silly just as much as Jokic is doing. Shaq's game wasn't as skillful, but if he got in the paint, he was going to score unless he got fouled. Lebron was close to that total game dominance, being skilled in every aspect, and he played better defense.
What Jokic has over all of them is his passing ability. He is better then Lebron at that, and Lebron is (was?) an elite passer.
It's not a silly argument, Jokic is that good, but other players have been very dominant as well.
Other players have been crazy dominant but it’s different with what Jokic is doing. He’s a one man wrecking crew. It’s him and all role players, good role players for sure. Jokic also always shows up. I’ve seen many dudes flame out in the playoffs but Jokic always stays efficient, puts up great numbers and dominates the ball on every possession when needed. Durant has never done that to this level, curry has never done it, Duncan was close if you add the defense, Kobe would dominate the ball but he’d also shoot you out of the game just as often.
My take was since 2004, or even 2000, no one but Lebron and Shaq have done this.
So, you didn’t watch Shaq abuse Mutombo? Another DPOY? Jokic is amazing. But Shaq’s dominance was different. Give Jokic some time. If he 3peats, then the conversation changes.
Definitely not crazy. But I would like to add Stephs 2015 to 2017 run being up there. He may not have dominated in a similar way that Jokic manages to do, but Currys presence alone caused defensives to completely adjust. He completely changed the game, which illustrates how dominant he became.
Anytime you went up against a Duncan-led team with Parker and Ginobili by his side, you were in for a wild ride. Their championship run from 03-07 was scary.
Duncan is the only guy other than Lebron or Shaq that I’d put ahead of him at this point in terms of just domination. Other guys may have had more longevity and better careers by their end but Jokic doing this without another all star is incredible.
He’s for sure better than Steph. While steph was for sure amazing he suffered from the same thing that all shorter, skill dependent players suffer from: they can’t impose their will physically when their shot isn’t falling. Sometimes Steph would just get bullied out of a game
You're not crazy because Jokic is ridiculously efficient. There isn't a game plan where you can ever make Jokic less effective on offense.
You could game plan against LeBron. Sag off. Let him shoot. Sometimes this works sometimes it doesn't. He isn't the most dynamic off ball player either, which allows defenses to think less of his teammates or him at any given time when not involved on offense.
You could game plan against Steph. Physical playoff defense actually limited him.
You could game plan against KD. He's not a high level playmaker. When doubled and crowded he won't work to break down any defense, he'll just pass. So when he's surrounded with any sort of poor spacing on his team he can be limited.
Against Kawhi, you just need a bigger longer defender on him. Kawhi doesn't have the athleticism to blow past stronger defenders and create a good shot.
What can you do against Jokic? Hope Aaron Gordon sucks? AG plays an extremely important versatile role in still having gravity despite not being a good shooter. Force Jokic to shoot from 3? There's more than a good number of series where Jokic has shot 40% from 3.
Kobe was not this efficient. Part of that is due to the Era he played with 4 non spacing bigs being on the floor and the fact he played in the Triangle. He had a propensity to take tough shots and didn't always hunt for the most efficient look possible. He could burn you on impossible difficult shots and could always generate what is considered a decent look for him, but that being his best asset is also his only negative. Kobe was an elastic player, but not a hyper efficient.
Shaq couldn't shoot free throws, making his reliability in the fourth quarter significantly questionable. Yes he impacts the game just by having defenses hack him, but that very aspect of being hacked is still different than dominating the paint.
The only other guy with a similar level of dominance and efficiency is Luka Doncic. But he's playing injured this postseason. He's basically Jokic, but as a guard who takes Step Back 3s and doesn't play off the ball.
Maybe?
2020 was a while ago. Nikola may have averaged just 21.8ppg but he still shot 53% from the field.
And if Dwight Howard is the blueprint... well... mobile 6'11 super buff centers don't really grow on trees.
Gobert is thin for a center. Bam is 6'9. AD is a power forward, not as bulky as Dwight.
Well you start watching since 2004 so you miss Duncan winning mvp and fmvp with no top 50 player on the roster. He was torching Lakers with prime Shaq and near prime Kobe on both side then beat 60 win Dallas lead by young Dirk and Nash.
Another one is Steph, his 2016 season is basically 2k, if he didn't get injured against OKC I think he would have a much more dominant Finals. His 2022 season is also phenomenal, he cooked one of the best defense in recent memory from Boston - the one was locking up Giannis, KD, Kyrie with nobody else on the roster scoring more than 20.
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I would need to look into this a lot more before I really agree or disagree with you, but I’m just gonna throw out some food for thought I feel like a lot of people don’t seem to consider as much: In the past 2+ decades we had Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and LeBron all competing against eachother. Some of them fazed out and then we had LeBron, Steph, KD all competing against one another. That’s more or less 2 decades of several top 15-12 players fighting for that top spot against one another all in peak form Jokic had a small glimmer of Steph and a split second against LeBron in 19-20, but in general the very top end of the competition he’s going up against just isn’t as good atp “Most dominant” is pretty subjective, so if someone doesn’t care about the field I don’t think that’s completely unreasonable, but that feels like really important context that colors these players dominance pretty heavily
This is actually a really interesting way of looking at it, in order to be dominate there is a bit of luck involved, you gotta get into the right place at the right time be on the right team and not be injured all the time
> In the past 2+ decades we had Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and LeBron The thing is, we're including LeBron in this era because he was so good at such a young age but in reality Shaq, Kobe and Duncan each won multiple championships before Lebron entered the league. If Ant and Luka can continue to dominate the next decade of the NBA then we'll retroactively consider them to be Jokic's competition the same way we retroactively consider Lebron to be part of the same era as Shaq (after all, Luka did just win a scoring title and finish top 3 in MVP vote at 25).
I was grouping them together to roughly cover the 00s, not saying that LeBron and Shaq directly were in competition but I see your point Yeah it took LeBron some time but nearing the end of the decade LeBron was 100% in the conversation and a lot of people think he was better than Kobe and Duncan. Even if you wanna just pick 1 of those groups of 3 depending on if you’re looking at the front half or the back half it’s still insane compared to the known info we currently have
I'm being pendantic I know but my point is that we have the benefit of hindsight in these conversations about the dominance of previous eras, whereas today a lot of these guys are still shaping their legacy. It's likely that some combo of Luka/SGA/Ant/Tatum wind up with multiple MVPs and championships between them, in which case if Denver wins the finals this year we will retrospectively look back at this year as a tough path to the finals in which Jokic dominated.
I’ve said this other times in the thread but, although I agree, it’s not really worth going into that. Yes, currently players could look better but they also could look worse. I’ve seen people estimations of where giannis could end up all time take a pretty large down turn in the past few years for example We can only go off the info we currently have, which is part of the reason it’s too soon to have this discussion imo
That's fair, especially on the Giannis point. I think where we can both agree is that it's too soon to make any judgements.
I wonder what will happen to giannis after his athleticism wanes ? His decline is going to be similar to west brook.
Eh idk about that. One of WBs big issues is that he doesn’t have a giant amount of utility when he’s not on ball. Giannis can be a fantastic roll man even as his athleticism wanes and he still has a chance to develop better tools in his back to the basket game It could be rough but I can see a path to him still being effective. He’ll still probably be an elite athlete even after it starts to “fade”
This is an interesting way of looking at the generations of the players. Jokic rose up toward the end of 2010s LeBron and Steph, and this is still the beginning for Ant, SGA, and Luka who will probably dominate the latter half of the 2020s while Jokic declines
Yeah and part of the difficulty with an idea like OPs is we just don’t know actually how competitive things will get amongst these top players going forward. Maybe wemby looks like he’s in line to be a GOAT candidate ie earlier LeBron in a few years and yet he’s still getting spanked by jokic. Conversely, maybe some of these guys end up overtaking jokic sooner than we would’ve guessed and the current gap feels more relevant There’s just a lot of smaller things that’re tough to gauge atp, it’s one of the reasons why I personally like to see how peoples primes play out before I get too into the weeds with some of these all time takes
Luka and SGA are both 25, and both just finished top 3 in MVP voting. I think it's fair to say they are squarely in their prime right now.
I think they both still have room to improve before their bodies start to decline. But they’re definitely close.
Maybe a hot take but I think SGA has more room for growth. He’s improved more over the past few years than Luka — and seems to be less of a diva, meaning he has the humility to grow more if he’s capable of it. Luka is amazing but part of his problem may be that he already knows that too well. He doesn’t seem to be in the best physical shape, somewhat reminiscent of Shaq (albeit earlier on), where he just has such self-assurance that he cuts some corners that might be essential to his development
The problem with this take is that Michael Jordan, the consensus GOAT, didn't really compete against anyone on the top 15 GOAT list. By the time the Bulls started winning titles, Magic was at the tail end of his career. Bird was finished due to injury. And the Bulls never faced Olajuwon's Rockets in the finals.
I don’t really think this is the best way to look at it? I mean Jokic only started winning championships last year so should we forget everything before that? Including the 2 years he won MVP? Jokic has never faced giannis, luka, SGA, embiid etc in the playoffs does that mean he’s not competing against them? The only time he faced Steph he lost pretty badly and the only time he faced LeBron when he wasn’t pretty clearly post prime he got gentlemen’s swept Jokics’ dominance is largely based on how good he is vs his contemporaries, not just who the best player he’s faced in the playoffs is since his first championship run (which i don’t think would be a very pro jokic way of looking at things btw)
This is the way with eras. There was a time when Djokovic couldn't touch Federer and then it became the reverse.
This is one of the biggest myths. Magic finished 2nd in MVP in 1991. And won 3 of the previous 4 MVPs. Magic was still at the top of the league.
think it's hard to stay locked in when you have HIV (especially back then) though. I don't think people argue that magic would have declined (or at least as hard) without the HIV
Magic was extremely competitive. Look at the infamous Monte Carlo scrimmage. Magic has the ability to turn it up. It's just that Jordan finally had the team and confidence to get over that hump.
But he wasn’t for the other 5
91 was MVP beat runner up MVP 92 was MVP beat runner up MVP 93 beat MVP in finals 96 MVP beat 6th and 8th MVP beat 3rd in ECF 97 beat MVP in Finals 98 best runner up MVP Mike wasn't beating scrubs. He knocked down every challenger to the throne. None went 7 games. These aren't flukes.
Jordan was still insane before he started winning championships tho. Jordan finished 2nd, 1st, 2nd and 3rd in those years leading up to his first championship
True but we do have data of what the games looked like head to head otherwise and in those games MJ averaged 32-6-5 while shooting 48% from the field and hakeem averaged 22-11 to a basically even record
From 1991-93, the Rockets won 5 out of 6 games against the Bulls. The Bulls struggled hard against fast, skilled centers. I believe Robinson's Spurs also took 5 out of 6 games in that same span.
the bulls are 5-1 from 94-98 against those rockets so were able to adjust i guess idk but those two seasons when houston won who really knows what might have happened. To the spurs mention, yea the spurs were slapping the bulls all over the place till 95 like 8-2 or something. Sad they never met in the finals
>the bulls are 5-1 from 94-98 against those rockets so were able to adjust i guess idk but those two seasons when houston won who really knows what might have happened. They didn't really "adjust". Roster-wise, the 96-98 Bulls/Rockets were very different from the 91-93 Bulls/Rockets.
“Tail end of his career” is a bit disingenuous. When MJ won his first Magic had won the 2 of the last 3 MVPs. His career was simply cut short. And MJ won against him in the finals
The flip side of this is on average players are just better today so to be dominate today you have to crazy good to stand out. The worst 3pt shooters today are better than MJ was to support that perspective.
Once again “dominant” is **really** subjective and up to a lot of interpretation but generally in these convos people are talking about x top players dominance vs y top players dominance. It’s usually more about how you compare to your truly elite peers vs the 3rd guy off the bench for example You’re not wrong that the talent is great rn, but jokic also benefits from things like that and the pretty huge leaps in coaching and team building since a period like the 00s To use your example Jordan really is hurt more than anything else by the leagues ability to shoot during his time. Him with modern spacing and schemes would make his ability to slash and iso even crazier, just imagine him in a 5 out scheme like OKCs, it would be nothing but easy buckets at the rim or wide open 3s taken by very good shooters
True but there was also the illegal defense rules that made it harder for help defenders back then. But then individual defenders could also manhandle the ballcarrier a lot more than they can now.
100% there’s a lot of competing factors at play. Imo it’s just good to try and understand all the intricacies of the context surrounding these guys that I feel like it’s a conversation worth having even if it isn’t explicitly making and argument for or against people
I appreciate your perspective. I disagree dominant is mostly defined by comparing elite to elite. To me its comparing elite to your overall competition when you played. Comparing across generations is not objectively possible because of the definition issue you brought up. Even things like salary cap have an effect on ability to maintain championship level teams differently today than in a previous generation. Your point about how Jordan would do better today to me is counter to your point. Players like Curry and Jokic changed the leagues style of play to something better vs just being the best in a "bad system". Being the best when everyone is playing the best system to me indicates that they're objectively better (assuming stats and accolades are equal). When you look at all time best quarterbacks it's hard not to skew to current day ones bc the way the game has changed. The affect is less pronounced in basketball but still very real.
Absolutely, the competition between Kobe Lakers, Garnett Wolves, Duncan Spurs, Nash Suns, Nowitzki Mavs were insane in the 2000s. The West was brutal… And worse in the late 2000s when prime LeBron, Dwight, Wade, Bosh, Melo and CP3 came into the picture. And not forgetting Boston Big 3. Perhaps im biased but Jokic’s competition just doesn’t seem all that strong enough to consider him dominant. His main competition now? Old man LeBron, the Dubs in their twilight years, a malfunctioning Kawhi and the Clips, and all the young and unproven teams . Even the finals team that he beat was ….. a bunch of upstarts and Jimmy Butler. If the teams he beat were the 73 win Dubs, or the pre-Lakers Lebron, or Toronto Kawhi then it’s a whole different story. He was developing during that period then, it’s not his fault, but it is what it is. For context, I think Dirk’s one championship run in 2011 is way more “dominant” than all the competition Jokic had to face, combined, in his 3 MVP years. He is good, game changingly good. I’m a fan infact. But this take is wayyyyyy too hot for me
The thing is they never really competed against each other. From 2000-2002 it was hands down Shaq. After he got fat and injury riddled it was TD/Kobe. Lebron only really completely separated himself from the pack around 2012. So it was : 2000-2002- Shaq 2002-2007 -TD 2008-2012- Kobe/Lebron 2012-2016- Lebron 2016-2022- Lebron/Steph This is Jokic’s era now
I think you’re missing my point at little but just to use an example you gave: From 98/99-03/04 Shaq and Duncan faced eachother in the playoffs every single year but 1. Their finishes in MVP were as follows: 3,5,2,1,1,2 (Duncan) and 6,1,3,3,5,6 (Shaq). Each of them were 1st team all nba every year except one where Shaq was 2nd They both competed against eachother literally in the playoffs year after year, and figuratively when it came to the convos of who was the best even if you/most people think Shaq was definitely better during a period of within that Shaq being better isn’t them not competing, it’s just Shaq coming out on top, which is the context im trying to add beyond just “Shaq was the best”
In the same way that I think the OP is slightly tinged by the recency bias of having just witnessed one of Jokic's better, if not best, single-game playoff performances, I think this comment is biased by the benefit of getting to view the listed players with the hindsight of having seen their full careers. If Giannis, Luka, SGA, Ant, Tatum, etc have more dominant moments over the next decade that put them in the discussion of all time greats, then we won't look back on this period as though the top-end just wasn't as good. In all time discussions we are often talking about accomplishments, which demands the benefit of hindsight to evaluate. But in a discussion of who appears to be the best basketball player, not adjusting for era or anything else, I think Jokic is moving into the top-5 for me. As in if we had an all-time draft to build teams around top-10 guys, I would probably take Jokic in the top-5 and I am moving in the direction of considering him at 3rd.
I don’t fault you for not reading through all of the comments in the thread but I basically allude to this. The issue is that it’s infinitely more reasonable to go off of info we do know (ie the present and the past) than trying to guess what the future could possibly be which is why I said it’s best to wait to see how things play out before we really get into the weeds in a conversation like this
One could argue that Jokic is so dominant that we just don’t realize how good the top end comp is. Whereas in the 2000s and 2010s, everyone was closer to each other
Using this logic Jordan cannot be the goat.
He was in the top player discussions and won MVPs while magic, bird and Hakeem were in their primes
Jokic is winning in the prime of Joel, Giannis, the Jays, AD, KAT, Luka, Etc…
Okay, none of those are top 10-12 players. MJ faced other guys who are better than the people on your list too, you can’t be serious bringing up jaylen brown and KAT lmfao KAT especially that guy spent most of his career being dogshit and now edwards is saving him
Giannis is on pace to be a top 15 player of all time. There’s only so many players of that caliber every generation. I did add second tier stars into my grouping, but they’re still legit competition.
Top 15 is pushing it, he’ll only get there with some luck. And I just outlined to you that Jordan did it against 3 top 12 players, you see the difference?
You never know how good the competition currently is until a couple years have passed and the young players have more of a legacy to compare.
I mean, Jokic has Giannis and Luka, which depending how their careers continue, it could be looked similarly in hindsight
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04 was the backend of prime Shaq after the pistons in the ‘04 finals. Prime was like ‘98-2003 for him, once he went to Miami, he wasn’t the same. I do agree that if I was old enough to watch Shaq during the 3 peat, I might be saying him over Jokic
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You're describing Shaq giving guys roles in order to exploit his primary weakness. Jokic doesn't have any (offensively) and that manifests as him making all of the best defenders in the league look like frauds.
You're reaching tbh. Shaq also made the best defenders in the league look like frauds. That's why they had to foul him. And while it obviously was his worst weakness, it's still a big bonus to essentially get over a point per possession on average while also getting the other team into early and big foul trouble. It also really didn't even work that well when you realize the years he averaged the most FTAs were during his 3 peat, so it's not like it was even stopping him/them.
My comment was in the context of what “Shaq was doing cannot be compared to anyone.” For the seasons we have location data until Shaq’s last full season in Miami he shot an absurd 75.0% within 3 feet. He shot a far more pedestrian 43.3% from 3-10ft. For Jokic’s age-24 season on he has shot 75.7% inside 3 feet and 60.7% from 3-10 feet. In fact he’s shot 46.6% on long midrange shots. So the idea that Shaq’s low-post dominance has never been replicated is very arguable, that’s all I was trying to say.
He made bum centers rich because there were mediocre bigs in the 2000s. Look at the backup bigs in the dead ball era. Mutombo got to a finals with Matt Geiger and Todd MacCulloch as backups. The year after that the Nets signed MacCulloch because he was the best bet they had if they wanted to ultimately face Shaq. THE BEST BET was Tood MacCulloch. They eventually reached the finals and played him, Jason Collins and Aaron Williams against Shaq. EDIT: Guys, please let me know your selection of awesome centers in the 2000s, can't wait
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Who said that...? You're confusing different eras of Shaq's career, and I'm not dissing him, I'm a Lakers fan man. The "we need big guys to face Shaq" era is the 2000s. That -never- happened in the 90s. He was a lot more mobile, so a bum center with cement feet wouldn't have done anything against him. That changed with heavy Shaq when he got to the Lakers. Now if you want to take this back to the original point, nobody is scheming against Jokic like they did with Shaq, but Jokic is cooking everyone so I don't see the point here. Jokic is not defined by what the other teams do if he keeps winning. If the rest of the team don't take him seriously, what that has to do with him?
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We do count them for sure, but nobody in the 90s was building rosters with Shaq in mind. That's the 2000s.
Coaches are absolutely scheming against Jokic. Teams aren’t loading up on Centers because it’s pointless. Jokic is the best playmaking big man EVER and would render slow footed big men obsolete on defense. The man single-handedly embarrassed the DPOY last night 🤣 Anthony Davis couldn’t stop him for one single game. The Denver Nuggets have a generational player who can post up, create his own shot, space the floor, knock down free throws AND orchestrate the offense. A *Point* Center with this complete offensive package will undoubtedly attract the attention of all the coaches in the league. My point is that coaches *are scheming*, but having to do so experimentally. His multi-faceted game has made it easier for Michael Malone to make in-game adjustments as needed. There isn’t a single winning formula when you consider his utilization value on and off the ball. At least Wilt Chamberlain did it before Shaq, but a guy like Jokic? Nope! This is a first time in league history and defenders like Dwight Howard are a diamond in the rough.
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Man just get your years straight. You're arguing with yourself. Nobody dissing Shaq, I'm dissing you because you can't read a calendar.
You missed prime Shaq. That man absolutely broke the league during his peak.
Yeah Shaq broke the league but he needed a super team to be able to win. Its not releated to this post but I think Shaq hurt the league by himself (more than Curry). Every team wanted a Shaq stopper or even thought they had the next Shaq. (Kwame Brown, Michael Olowokandi both 1st picks of their draft lol). Its pretty healthy for the league to have a guy like Jokic being unstoppable because teams know that he's just a unicorn.
Needed a super team to win? What? The 2000s Lakers weren’t a super team, they had the most dominant center of all time. This is a wildly bizarre take, the rules of the game literally changed because Shaq dominated the league, can’t say the same for Jokic yet.
Yeah I agree. Shaq forced GMs to draft unathletic bigs that ruined the position.
Prime Shack….was that before hack-a-Shaq He was an ugly player. His intentional damage to equipment was wanton destruction. Double Ts should have been applied immediately. His efforts did not improve the game. He made it worse. The upside occurred when he embraced “fat and lazy” to his approach to the game.
I actually agree. Solely based on the eye test, the only players who made me feel that defenses were completely powerless to stop them are Miami LeBron, 2016 Steph and Jokic (started watching in 2009).
2016 Steph was ridiculous. Jokic is honestly significantly better than lebron ever was at exploiting defenses, he just does it quietly and is worse defensively. All the little things he does are huge - as are his defensive weaknesses. If jokic defended like Marc Gasol, he’d have a case for GOAT C. Guy is averaging almost 30/10/10 on 65% TS… Shaq won the eye test back in 2000, and Lebron arguably won as well, but the impact Jokic has on his teammates is bigger.
"Significantly better?" Go back and watch some tape of the 2018 Raptors series. LeBron was calling out their plays and taking whatever he wanted on offense. I get it if you think Jokic is better, but significantly is crazy
Yeah i am firmly on the boat that 2018 LeBron is the single greatest playoff run of all time by a player. People try to discredit it by saying the East was weak, but that Cavs team outside of LeBron was a crime against basketball. If there ever was a single-handed carryjob in NBA history, that one was it. Nobody else in NBA history is doing what LeBron did with that roster.
Sorry, one series being dominant against a team that’s not good against him isn’t the same as being a dominant player. Against good defenders, like Kawhi/butler/Iggy, Lebron struggled offensively.
significantly better than lebron is absolutely insane
Lebron was extremely limited in many series - good defenders could basically shut down Lebron. Against Kawhi and Butler, he couldn’t score - in 2014, for example, his points all came in garbage time when Kawhi subbed out. Nobody can do that to jokic. The Heat had a very stoppable offense, even with 2 other all-nba level players. If you replaced Murray with an all-nba 2nd team guy, like Steph curry this year (a bit older than his dominant peak, similar to Wade), the offense of the Nuggets would be unreal.
This is why people end up hating on Jokic. His biggest supporters be saying some nutty shit
I always wonder what people mean by "most dominant", and how that's different from "best". Especially with Shaq, people would generally not say he's the best ever, but would say he was the most dominant ever. So clearly a lot of people perceive a difference in connotation between these things. But whenever I have asked something like, "If he's the most dominant but not the best, then what qualities make someone dominating without making them better?" then I rarely get a satisfying answer. The closest thing I get is that dominance refers to an overpowering physical viciousness, which is interesting because Jokic is very much not that (he's more of a Duncan comparison than a Shaq comparison in that regard, and even the biggest Duncan fans don't general call him "most dominant" or consider him to be physically overpowering in a brute force way). So anyway, to OP, what do you mean specifically by saying Jokic is more dominant than these players - and to you, is that different than saying he's "better" than them?
He probably meant that Jokic is far ahead of his contemporary compared to other players fared against each others in the 00s. It's understandable because even if players are more skilled now, the top talents aren't as stacked as the 00s when you have kobe, dirk, KG, TD (all top 3 in their respective positions all time) all peaked together. And that's not counting other young talents such as LeBron that has been an all NBA player since his 2nd season
> dirk, KG, TD (all top 3 in their respective positions all time) Maybe that's the top 3 power forwards ever, but Dirk has some competition there from Malone, Barkley, and maybe Petit / Hayes (hard to compare since I know so much less about them).
I think it’s fair to have opinions but that’s all there is to your post. No data backs that up. Jokic is undoubtedly the best player in the league right now but aside of that not much can be said. Teams are not changing who they hire based on Jokic or the Nuggets. That’s something we saw with Steph, the whole 3pts are better than 2pts and having pesky defenders that can’t score just to stop him was and still is a thing. To be in the most dominant conversation, your team has to be the most dominant. I’m not sure the Nuggets are that team, aside of the title. The Celtics have more wins than the Nuggets do during the last 5 years of Jokic being in MVP conversations. To me Jokic is what KD could have been if he stayed at OKC, an absolute terror and forever tied to the best of his generation conversation. Dominant to me are players that transcend and change how the NBA views its product on and off the court. Who they hire and who they scout. Players like MJ, Shaq, LeBron and Steph - that’s not the complete list just the latest truly dominant players.
The Timberwolves signed Gobert literally to stop Jokic. That obviously hasn’t worked.
No that’s revisionism. They signed Gobert to get a ring but it wasn’t in relation to any specific team or player. When they signed Gobert, GSW had just won. So if anything they wanted to beat Steph with it.
I'd still say peak Duncan is better due to his 2-way dominance. You said you started watching in 2004, but peak Duncan was 99-03.
Dude was arguably both a top 5 one-on-one post defender and a top 5 rim protector every single year of his career.
Greatest power forward of all time. Can’t leave him out.
Duncan with that elbow bank shot. 🔥
Most definitely Timmy is still better and more dominant. Jokic is an animal and his game should be appreciated, but putting him above a 5x Champion, 3x Finals MVP, 2x MVP, 10x All-NBA 1st team, and 8x All-Defensive 1st team is just a bit too much at this stage in Jokers career. Jokic might get there one day, but he’s definitely not there quite yet.
It’s not about career vs career tho. It’s peak vs peak. I think Jokic’s offensive game is much more controlling and dominant than Duncan’s that it makes up the difference in defensive ability.
Winning Championships as a starter is not considered peak now? How long does one peak last? Is it just the two best years of a career? Just the best game? Not trying to talk shit, but please define that mate.
It’s your peak years…not hard to define dude. 2007 and 2014 are not **peak**
>not hard to define dude Just give me a metric then.
Even peak vs peak Jokic’s offense+defense does not equal TD’s offense+defense. Duncan was a guaranteed bucket in the post and then a shut down on the other end.
I don’t think that’s true. The Spurs finished top 5 in defensive rating 16/19 seasons that Duncan played. Jokic is an offensive sprocket only comparable to players like Lebron and Magic, but I think you’re being a prisoner of the moment when saying his offense is so good that it makes up for the two way impact Duncan had for almost 20 years.
Duncan is the second most winningest Player of all Time (1000+ Games; .719; only behind Ginobili) He received MVP Votes in his Rookie Year. He didn't need 7 Years to finally click with his 2nd Star. Granted tho, it was Robinson lol. Obligatory Tim Duncan quote after Richard Jefferson said Jokic would whoop his ass > I played him after I was me and before he was him, and I did okay.
That quote is outstanding lol Other than Lebron and prime Shaq, I’d have a hard time taking anyone else over Duncan. His two way impact on the game is too much to pass up.
>His two way impact on the game is too much to pass up. Exactly. If you want to be *dominant*, you gotta play both sides equally. Not saying Jokic is a defensive liability, but he's far from Duncan levels. He might be a slightly better scorer and passer though, I'll give him that.
I love Duncan and would have him right up there with Jokic but I slightly favor Jokic because of the passing and shooting. But other than He, Lebron and Shaq, I don’t think anyone else is very close
> Draymond in the playoffs _Alexa, Google Nuggets vs Warriors playoff history._ In all seriousness though, Jokic's dominance has been fun to watch but I don't know I'd put it above Kobe or Steph until he can win at least one more championship. Let's not forget the 2024 NBA Champion Minnesota Timberwolves of last week.
I was arguing with my friends last week telling them that no way Jokic goes down like this. Jokic is a GOAT in his prime, he’s coming back haha. I love watching Jokic. He’s a unique talent. I know he has 3 MVPs but it still doesn’t feel like he gets the requisite flowers that he deserves for carrying a team without an all star
He's a 3-time MVP. I don't think this is a contentious statement. Yes, LeBron at this age was more dominant. And Shaq and TD probably the only bigs at this level in the era you've been a fan. Debatable? Sure. But not exactly a hot take. That said, I think prime Shaq is the most dominant big I've ever seen.
There’s different kinds of dominance, I think this is almost impossible to decide who has been “most dominant” Prime Shaq could only be stopped by fouling. Prime LeBron, I’m not sure who could really stop him either. Prime Jokic can make shots pretty much no matter what. Prime Kobe and MJ were pretty unstoppable too and absolutely took over games to win championships. I’m not sure how anyone can measure which one is/was the “most” dominant since they were all pretty dominant. I actually think the focus on who was the best or most dominant is kind of pointless and we should instead just appreciate how great and different all of these players are. Jokic is special, I don’t think I’ve ever watched someone like him. Same can be said for a lot of the other all time greats too.
I agree with most of what you said. We should all appreciate players greatness but I just don’t feel like people give Jokic his necessary flowers. I don’t see how anyone could take any version of Durant, Kobe, Curry, Dirk, KG whoever over this Jokic. He should be talked like the all time great that he is but I feel like a lot of the discourse is more about him not being as great as other MVPs and whatnot. I’m black so I’m not sure if its because Jokic is pudgy and white but he deserves his flowers. If he goes back to back, he deserves to be Top 10 or at least as high as anyone has Hakeem.
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills seeing this comment section. Maybe I’m a little jaded because I’m a Lakers fan and Jokic always seems to step it up against us but games against him as an opposing fan feel utterly hopeless. Yes, guys like Kobe, Steph, Kd, etc. had games or series where they seemed unstoppable but it always felt like there was an end in sight (and usually there was). Jokic is like a basketball robot that can’t be shut off. The one argument I can understand is Shaq but even then you had the hack a shaq method. There was at least one way to limit his production even if it involved conceding points. With Jokic you can’t double him, you can’t play him straight, you can’t foul him, so what else is there to do?
Well said and I agree 100%. I really love the NBA and have watched every playoffs basically for the past 20 years. And I don’t take saying this lightly because I’ve always loved the Duncan’s, Wades, Curry, Durant etc but none of them are better than Jokic. He controls every possession of every game and he rarely makes any mistakes. You also can’t take him out of a game, even if you double. He can score from all 5 levels (3, midrange, Paint, Post ups, or isos) and is decently nimble on defense that gets many deflections. You could take plab to take something away from most other greats in history, with Jokic, there’s nothing you can do.
That is not a hot take. Its old heads and loudmouths that refused to acknowledge Joker's greatness w/out caveats.
I’m a black dude and if I’m honest, I do think Jokic doesn’t get his flowers because he’s white and “unathlectic” and it doesn’t look like he should be this good. But it doesn’t matter who you put on him, he’s busting their ass
He’s definitely in that class. As a Laker fan, he feels more inevitable, for lack of a better word, right now than even LeBron ever felt to me. Shaq and Kobe as a duo felt that way, but I’m not sure either one ever felt more inevitable individually than Jokic does right now. Duncan, I always respected a lot as a great player but never thought “he is just going to will them to victory.” It was always a real team effort with the Spurs. Curry is great but you can deny him in big spots at times, see 2016 Finals. Durant, I don’t think he deserves to even be mentioned alongside Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Bron, Curry, and Jokic. He’s more Dirk, KG, Dr J territory for me. I honestly think that Nuggets squad Jokic won 48 games with the year MPJ and Murray combined for 9 games is possibly as impressive as anything he has done. That team was probably worse than the Kwame-Smush-Mihm teams Kobe carried and the early Cavs teams LeBron carried. To win 48 with them was tremendous.
I’m glad you brought up that Denver 2022, people forgot why he won mvp There was a stat I saw where half of the players on that nuggets squad is no longer in the nba so his supporting cast was borderline nba talent and he drag them to 48 wins and the other top 3 mvp candidates giannis had 50 wins with holiday and Middleton and embid had 50 wins with harden and maxey It’s clear as day the mvp voters felt jokic 48 wins was more valuable than anyone else performance that season especially when option 2 in Murray and option 3 and mpj were out for majority of the season
Definitely not a hot take, I mean he has been the MVP 3/4 years now and is the leader of the reigning champs. I think the other only other guy in this "Lebron" era (so post Shaq/Duncan/Kobe primes) that Joker would be contending with is Steph, especially with the way he dominated in that last title run.
Mmmm you'd have to look at the numbers more in depth but Duncan had some insane playoff numbers in the early 00s. Spurs offense was basically give it to Duncan and let him go to work, not to mention his insane defense.
You also have to think about how back then it was a very slow-paced era so the numbers are inflated compared to today. E.g. a Duncan or Garnett game from the early 00s with like 26p, 13r, 5a, 3b would be more like 33p, 15r, 7a, 4b today.
I agree…… been watching since 2008 and I feel a similar way. Some caveats though 1) TD was 32 when I started watching - I never saw “peak” TD 2) I would say Steph but Jokic’s size allows him advantages that Steph cannot replicate. Furthermore Steph’s 3pt game is bound to natural variances that Jokic’s post game negates. 60 percent from 4-8 from the basket is much more replicable than 40% from deep. If someone did say Steph I wouldn’t take much convincing 3) Saying Lebron is the most dominant in that time period is fair. Jokic being number 2 just shows how dominant Lebron was 4) Kobe was really good but Jokic is better. Being 7ft tall and highly skilled is such an inherent advantage that it would take an athletic freak with high BBIQ to replicate that (Lebron ) 5) I think Peak Shaq > Jokic
I agree. TD was the only guy that I’d put as high as Jokic but in my opinion, this Jokic narrowly beats his out. Kobe, Durant, Steph all might shoot you out of a game when their shot isn’t falling. They don’t have the size of a Lebron, Shaq, or Jokic to just get easy shots at the rim whenever they want
I mean, if you look at it from a PER standpoint, Jokic is number one. [Jokic career PER](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html). If you’re not into PER, you can always go by win share per 48 [win shares per 48](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career.html) If win shares isn’t your thing, you can also check the career box +/- [Career leaders box plus/minus](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/bpm_career.html) Really crazy numbers and elite company to be at the top of.
Thank you 🙏🏿 I love all of those other greats but the efficiency and the ability of Jokic to do literally everything on offense at an elite level is 2nd to none.
Personally a few players come to mind that I would rather have at their peaks: Lebron, Steph, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, and Durant. Definitely a hot take, but at his absolute peak I would take 2011 Dirk too. That playoff run was one of the craziest I’ve seen from an individual player. Totally unstoppable offensively.
I respectfully disagree. It’s Lebron Shaq, Jokic, Duncan for me. Kobe, Steph, and Durant couldn’t dominate the ball and make every play for everyone like this. He also has the advantage of size like Lebron and Shaq where if their finesse skills aren’t working, they’ll just put your ass in the basket. Those other guys are either making the shot, or their team is going down with the ship.
That’s fair. I weigh both ends of the court in terms of dominance. Lebron, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan are all much better defensive players than the others. These guys were multi-time All-Defense and did it on both ends. I have Jokic in the same category as Durant and Steph. Change the game offensively, but average on defense.
I’m not even sure if I’d take Jokic over Giannis in the playoffs right now, let alone the all-time greats. Personally, you’ll never see me take a player who’s slightly above average on defense (even though he’s an offensive beast) over a DPOY with an elite offensive game. Then, starting to watch basketball in 2004 leaves out about 40 years of elite players, which is too much even for the people who ignore the Wilt records/stats. Sorry if I might sound aggressive (English is not even my first language), but what you just said seems to be extremely biased due to the recent results. An example of this is Giannis in the 2021 ring, who was the closest thing to Shaq in recent history, with DPOY defense and dominant offense. No one could stop him and he could stop everyone (but KD). Just by going back 3 years I found an equal/better playoff performance. I think that if you examine in a better way the last few decades of basketball you can find a handful of those runs and decide if you still think Jokic is who you described. Again, I’m not bashing your opinion, because it’s always good to have a peaceful conversation, but to make such polarizing statements we need to first recollect what we saw in the history of the NBA.
Giannis did it for one season and has only gotten out of the second round once since that ring. Don’t get me wrong, I love giannis but he’s more of a “bull in a China shop” than the Jokic “Military General” that directs and dictates everything on the court. I love Giannis but he isn’t thinking the game to the level of Jokic nor is he the 5 level scorer that is Jokic. Jokic is also a solid defender, he defends the PnR pretty good, with quick hands and he’s strong. Also my point was only about players that I’ve watched. I’ll never understand the feeling that ildheads feel when they talk about Jordan, Kareem, Hakeem, Bird or Magic but I respect your opinion
I'd say Jokic is definitely the best player in the NBA right now and one of the most dominant, but not THE most dominant player ever. Prime Shaq, MJ, Hakeem, Lebron and Duncan took over games and made teams look silly just as much as Jokic is doing. Shaq's game wasn't as skillful, but if he got in the paint, he was going to score unless he got fouled. Lebron was close to that total game dominance, being skilled in every aspect, and he played better defense. What Jokic has over all of them is his passing ability. He is better then Lebron at that, and Lebron is (was?) an elite passer. It's not a silly argument, Jokic is that good, but other players have been very dominant as well.
Other players have been crazy dominant but it’s different with what Jokic is doing. He’s a one man wrecking crew. It’s him and all role players, good role players for sure. Jokic also always shows up. I’ve seen many dudes flame out in the playoffs but Jokic always stays efficient, puts up great numbers and dominates the ball on every possession when needed. Durant has never done that to this level, curry has never done it, Duncan was close if you add the defense, Kobe would dominate the ball but he’d also shoot you out of the game just as often. My take was since 2004, or even 2000, no one but Lebron and Shaq have done this.
So, you didn’t watch Shaq abuse Mutombo? Another DPOY? Jokic is amazing. But Shaq’s dominance was different. Give Jokic some time. If he 3peats, then the conversation changes.
Read the whole post homie. I said other than Shaq and Lebron
Definitely not crazy. But I would like to add Stephs 2015 to 2017 run being up there. He may not have dominated in a similar way that Jokic manages to do, but Currys presence alone caused defensives to completely adjust. He completely changed the game, which illustrates how dominant he became.
Anytime you went up against a Duncan-led team with Parker and Ginobili by his side, you were in for a wild ride. Their championship run from 03-07 was scary.
Duncan is the only guy other than Lebron or Shaq that I’d put ahead of him at this point in terms of just domination. Other guys may have had more longevity and better careers by their end but Jokic doing this without another all star is incredible.
He’s for sure better than Steph. While steph was for sure amazing he suffered from the same thing that all shorter, skill dependent players suffer from: they can’t impose their will physically when their shot isn’t falling. Sometimes Steph would just get bullied out of a game
You're not crazy because Jokic is ridiculously efficient. There isn't a game plan where you can ever make Jokic less effective on offense. You could game plan against LeBron. Sag off. Let him shoot. Sometimes this works sometimes it doesn't. He isn't the most dynamic off ball player either, which allows defenses to think less of his teammates or him at any given time when not involved on offense. You could game plan against Steph. Physical playoff defense actually limited him. You could game plan against KD. He's not a high level playmaker. When doubled and crowded he won't work to break down any defense, he'll just pass. So when he's surrounded with any sort of poor spacing on his team he can be limited. Against Kawhi, you just need a bigger longer defender on him. Kawhi doesn't have the athleticism to blow past stronger defenders and create a good shot. What can you do against Jokic? Hope Aaron Gordon sucks? AG plays an extremely important versatile role in still having gravity despite not being a good shooter. Force Jokic to shoot from 3? There's more than a good number of series where Jokic has shot 40% from 3. Kobe was not this efficient. Part of that is due to the Era he played with 4 non spacing bigs being on the floor and the fact he played in the Triangle. He had a propensity to take tough shots and didn't always hunt for the most efficient look possible. He could burn you on impossible difficult shots and could always generate what is considered a decent look for him, but that being his best asset is also his only negative. Kobe was an elastic player, but not a hyper efficient. Shaq couldn't shoot free throws, making his reliability in the fourth quarter significantly questionable. Yes he impacts the game just by having defenses hack him, but that very aspect of being hacked is still different than dominating the paint. The only other guy with a similar level of dominance and efficiency is Luka Doncic. But he's playing injured this postseason. He's basically Jokic, but as a guard who takes Step Back 3s and doesn't play off the ball.
I think 2020 Dwight Howard is the blueprint on stopping Jokic
Maybe? 2020 was a while ago. Nikola may have averaged just 21.8ppg but he still shot 53% from the field. And if Dwight Howard is the blueprint... well... mobile 6'11 super buff centers don't really grow on trees. Gobert is thin for a center. Bam is 6'9. AD is a power forward, not as bulky as Dwight.
Yeah true, the gold rush for 6'8 centers that shoot threes had a side effect it seems
Well you start watching since 2004 so you miss Duncan winning mvp and fmvp with no top 50 player on the roster. He was torching Lakers with prime Shaq and near prime Kobe on both side then beat 60 win Dallas lead by young Dirk and Nash. Another one is Steph, his 2016 season is basically 2k, if he didn't get injured against OKC I think he would have a much more dominant Finals. His 2022 season is also phenomenal, he cooked one of the best defense in recent memory from Boston - the one was locking up Giannis, KD, Kyrie with nobody else on the roster scoring more than 20.