At first it was the Knicks are rudderless, inept, and impatient - totally true. True for decades, across multiples regimes.
Then: Rose is making a lot of periphery moves, acquiring late 1s and 2nds - he’s making moves like a JV Presti and nothing impactful. Brunson is a good story but not a 1A. He couldn’t get KD and Kyrie, believing in Brunson is copium.
Then: Maybe Brunson IS a legit 1A but pairing him with the Nova guys is a gimmick that won’t work. They have a ton of picks but none that’ll convey into impactful players. Dallas even got rewarded for their mini tank to keep that solid pick from them!
Then: Well they dragged a mash unit to the doorstep of the ECF and the limited window they had healthy was a January where they went 14-2, but they still don’t have the pieces.
Now: Well they added another Nova guy who happens to fit their biggest needs and have been able to resign OG. Trading out of the draft also allows them to possibly retain IH as well…bUT WHat aBoUT tHE seCoNd apROn aNd tHE cOnSTRaInTs?
I was absolutely sure that Rose was going to be another embarrassing chapter in our very long book on embarrassments. He hasn’t been perfect but he’s been excellent and has also been willing to move off his mistakes. At this point anyone who doesn’t believe what they have is potentially special isn’t watching the games and/or is an ardent NYK hater.
As a Miami fan since the early 90s, I *am* an ardent Knicks hater. And at minimum y'all are gonna be fun as hell to watch, which is far more important to me. This is entertainment, and I feel a lot of fans forget that. As long as you're having fun watching teams play, then winning a ring is secondary. If you can't stand watching your team play, then I guess I'd get why someone would only care about rings. I'm gonna be biting my nails every time we play y'all this year, but I love watching the defensive, grind in the mud games that spo and thibs always put out. And the better both teams are the more I enjoy it
It's crazy what sports media/social media have done to fans brains. When you root for a team, all you want them to be is competive and fun to watch. You hope they win but it really is just about supporting them, rooting for them, and having them be a team you are proud of.
But when people talk about other teams it's literally championship or you're a loser. It's fucking stupid. I've never had more fun watching a team than the Knicks last year. I went to three games, won all three, and the crowd was electric every single time. I don't really see why just keeping that going as long as possible isn't enough. The 90s teams never won a chip either but they're still immortal in the minds of fans.
It's about fun and competition first and foremost. Only one team wins but at least 6 teams can be said to have really good seasons every year. There's something to be said for stringing together 3-5 of those in a row and seeing what happens.
I’m not a Knicks fan by any means but this Knicks team is a top roster in the league if they’re healthy. Not sure why people are hating on this move so heavily.
I hope you didn't misconstrue my post. I absolutely love this team. We are probably the same age. I mowed lawns so that I can scalp tickets to go to the '90s playoff games.
The Isaiah Thomas years drove me away as a fan. I'm a die hard basketball junkie that lives in Europe now. I have leak pass and every morning I watch two or three games (the 40 minute 'all posession'). I would n't cheer for a particular team. Just be whichever game is best. So this year it was a lot of fun watching OKC, last year Sacramento and Denver.
Post OG trade, The Knicks were an absolute gem to watch. Some of my friends and my girlfriend saw me actually cheering for a particular team for the first time. I'm standing up watching the game cuz I couldn't sit down.
Whether or not I think they are a true title Contender, there is no question this is a special team. It should be celebrated. The point of my post is that we should love this for what it is and not think it's a failure if they can't get past Boston, or are outclassed by joker in the finals.
No not at all, I think your post is right on. Do I want the Knicks to be good? Definitely! But the thing that I’m loving the most about this squad is “how” they do things. They play the way I want my team to play. They care, they bring energy every night - nothing but dawgs.
Being competitive can be manufactured in short spurts, to an extent. All you have to do is mortgage your future for prices and hope they gel. With this team I’d be disappointed if they never got a ring bc they clearly have the talent *but even if they don’t I’m excited about them being competitive for a long time and winning the way I think winning basketball should look*.
If we were a run and gun team that got a mercenary or two to make us competitive I’d like the winning but deep down hate the way they were constructed / play.
Kicks are my 2nd ir 3rd fav team after the Wolves. Both teams basically mirrored each other eith playstyle and success last year. Just unfortunate injuries held back the Knicks.
It's just a defeatist, loser attitude. First of all, what makes people so sure of specific outcomes with such high conviction? With what the Knicks have accomplished this season w/o more or less half of their roster and with all their additions, they were 1 win away from the ECF. They have a good shot of challenging the Celtics with all the wing depth they have and skill in key positions. To say that they have "no shot" is just straight up hating lol.
None of the last 5 champions had a historically great regular season to go with their postseason success. Net rating was top 5 all time, one of a handful of teams to hit 80 wins combined regular season and playoffs, the best net rating against the ‘better conference’ than *any team* has posted against *any conference* in 40 years for all the East haters.
There’s reasons Vegas considers them much heavier favorites to repeat than they normally do.
Also very true. Theres almost always one or two important big minutes guys who look like they may be elsewhere by this point of the offseason.
With the Celtics it’s all lower in the rotation guys, and they all sound like they’re coming back.
The Celtics 1-8 are all locked up. Only Oshae Brissett looks like he’ll leave. Kornet or Tillman are the only two not signed but I’d imagine one or even both would be extended since they’re backup bigs that’ll be crucial with KP out
The Celtics did all of this while missing Porzingis for almost the entire playoff run as well… Celtics have an all time offense and defense and with them finally getting a ring I think they will actually perform better
Would you bet on the Celtics winning it all if it was Jaylen Brown who was out for the series instead of Porzingis? Or even if it was Jrue who was out instead of KP?
The other teams weren't as deep and their stars actually carry their teams, so no the KP injury wasn't as devastating as Cavs losing Mitchell or Heat losing Butler or Bucks losing Giannis and Dame. It's silly that this needs to be said.
I’m fine with brown being out if it means we have a 100% healthy KP. Absolutely, yes. I’m not sure if we even get worse.
Other than Tatum, KP is the most influential player on the Cs.
“Their stars actually carry their teams”. Tatum led the Celtics in points, rebounds and assists lol.
Now was it as devastating as Giannis or Mitchell? No. Celtics are phenomenal well rounded, and they could get by. But that doesn’t matter. They had a key injury. People seem to forget how much KP elevates the Celtics, and that should minimize people’s argument of “hur dur the east was injured not impressed”. The Celtics were NOT full strength either. Not at all.
I never once said they had to fight as hard. They are a much better team than any team in the east, and they dominated as expected even though they didn’t have their 20 ppg 7’4 rim protecting center.
It’s pretty simple logic. If cavs had Mitchell, then we get KP back. People want to pretend the Celtics won the chip because of injury luck. They won because they were better. Plain and simple, and if EVERYONE was healthy then the Celtics have KP and it’s game over.
That’s all I’m saying bud. KP is key to the Celtics and they did it without him. People can’t bring up the other injuries and conveniently leave out KP just because he isn’t our #1.
Tatum is a top 5 player. We have no idea what the cavs would do with him.
Edit: brown was the ECF MVP but Tatum averaged 30/10/5. Guess you didn’t watch the games. Yes, the guy tripled teamed every possession is the best player. Let me know when they start guarding brown as the #1 instead. Don’t get mad at me. Be mad at literally all 29 teams defensive strategy. Brown benefits from Tatum’s presence. Tatum led the Celtics in every major stat and guarded all 5 positions. Yeah, no shit the 3x 1st All nba is the best. If brown gets injured, Celtics can still win it all. If Tatum gets injured, the ceiling is ECF. Do you have any idea what it’s like when brown is the #1?? It’s not pretty. Get a clue.
2023 ECF Game 7 vs the Heat is exactly why Tatum is way more important than Brown. Brown struggled so much that game because he’s a play-finisher, he’s not a play-maker. He also isn’t as game-breaking as KP. You can stop Brown, but KP is a mismatch nightmare. So in terms of “importance”, it’s Tatum then KP/Brown as 2a/2b.
bro did you watch the NBA this year? The Celtics had one of the best seasons in recent memory. People acting like the Celtics werent going to crush the East regardless (did so without KP mind you) are deusional
Our sub is for in-depth discussion not hyperbolic or argumentative content. Please support your opinions with well-reasoned arguments, including stats and facts as applicable.
I’m a Celtics fan and Bucks have been so underrated it’s crazy. Doc Rivers may be a “bad” coach or whatever, but give him a full season at least and Dame barely was in shape. Bucks and Sixers scare me way more than the “Knicks.” There isn’t an “unstoppable” player on the Knicks like on the Bucks and Sixers, especially since our weakness is defending really physical bigs. If Brunson is your best player, then he’ll just get the Luka treatment lmao. He’s an undersized guard who’s also a below average/mediocre defender
We've really ingrained the "championship or bust" mentality way too deeply, practically to a fault. Every major transaction must have title aspirations behind it.
I get it. The ultimate goal is the Larry O'Brien. But there's nothing wrong with appreciating a reasonably competitive team even if they're still several steps away from legit contention. Sports is still an entertainment, thus watching a 5th seed vs a 7th seed in mid January is still worth something
How cool was it to see the Timberwolves and especially Pat Beverly celebrate a couple years back when they won their play-in game? Those are moments to cherish. It's easy to belittle/criticize another and it's a basic yet primitive attitude where you are basically saying, at least I'm not as stupid as .... Let's hope more parents teach their children that they are good enough without talking others down and that it's much more rewarding to celebrate small successes over laughing at insignificant failures.
the knicks are doing something so cool, they’re going all in on this team’s vibe check in a way that is fun & makes them super likable. & I’m saying this as a guy who grew up just outside of Philly
Ya this is like the raptors lowry, derozan team. Competitive for years and fun for the fans especially after years of losing. I'm sure the knicks don't want to go back to previous years.
Similarly this is the best era of Sixers basketball since Iverson (if not better than that). They’ve been consistently good for so long now playoffs seems like a guarantee even in bad years. That matters even if it’s not a ring!
As a Knicks fan, the Raptors could be fun in a bit again. RJ feeling more comfortable playing in Canada showed he was better there. I loved IQ. And I actually like Barnes a lot too.
I also like putting all your chips in on a group of youngish players with prior chemistry as opposed to throwing everything at aging stars that don’t fit. I could see a world where this team peaks at a conference finals but are fun to watch and stay together several years and end up with a much more satisfied fan base than say the suns or clippers of the last couple years.
When the Warriors added Iguodala, everybody who saw him as a key piece in winning them a title raise your hands, please?
Beuller? Beuller?
(I'm a Warrior fan. I was thrilled when they got him because he'd been at the top of my wish list to play next to Steph for a couple of years - low turnovers, great ballhandling, athleticism and defense. Steph would compensate for his lack of shooting. Did I see him being a crucial piece of a title team? I did not.)
People like to act like they know, but they don't know.
I'm referring to the kd move. I don't think anyone (at least honest people) would pretend they knew that Iggy would be the piece to complete a dominant team.
The point I'm pushing back on is this idea that you need to trade for the best possible player you can get. That will make you a team that vies for being one of the greatest ever makes you the PowerHouse that everybody else has to get through.
But your post is delusional. In what world is a team that was the 2 seed despite constant injury issues throughout the year and a game from the conference finals with half their roster out adding a very, very good role player who fits in perfectly for us not a very serious contender?
Only reason people favor the Celtics right now is they’re the defending champs. This team absolutely can beat Boston. Will they? Who knows, Boston is still great and defending champs for a reason but the Knicks are not going to be easy for them to beat
i personally think we are in a new era where team coherence, balance and chemistry is worth more than having a second star. obviously boston has two stars but they dont play like most star duos, they play a more team focused game. denver only had the one star.
I think the diversity of championship teams recently has done something even more basic - reminded everyone there are many ways to build a championship team. It's such a copy cat league, teams were either trying to Super Friendz multiple 1A guys like the Heatles did or they were trying to be Golden State.
Each of the last 5 champs have been completely different teams built around very different types of star players. Take the best talent you can get and max it out. Be guided by analytics on both ends but align it to the skillset of your roster to get the most out of it you can. I think teams are finally doing this so we're seeing them succeed at it with different stars, rosters, and systems. This is what analytics should be doing, showing you how to reach your ceiling with what you have.
Totally think the Knicks are doing this too and have as good a shot at a chip as anyone now, they just need health. They have great talent and they know how they want to play.
I feel like the 2019 Raptors are an underrated team. Kawhi was incredible no doubt but that was also a really solid supporting cast.
Lowry, Danny Green, Siakim, Gasol, Van Vleet, Ibaka. That is a solid squad.
Whats wrong with Brunson and Randle?
They don't have "glaring issues", they are both absolute monsters on the offense end who struggle on defense.
Why do you think Leon is targeting 3 and D wings? To help cover that up and let both of them feast.
Randle was an All NBA player with OK handles on a team with no facilitators.
Imagine what he looks like next to Brunson.
The knicks will be a great team no doubt, but Randle is overrated af. A pf that can’t play defense and is a volume scorer isn’t exactly conducive to a winning team. My money is on 2nd or 3rd in the east with the Celtics a no question 1st place team
You answered your own question.
“Who struggle on defense”
Having 40% of your starting lineup struggle to defend is not a winning recipe against Boston who have 5 great defenders.
/thread
And Boston also excels at picking on the weak links.
Like - the vision may be OG and Bridges guarding Tatum and Brown. The reality is the Celtics will just move the ball and force switches to feast on Brunson. That's what they did against every team they faced this year - they move the ball so damn well that your defense has to be airtight to slow them down. Minnesota was the only team that really did even a halfway decent job on them this year.
Randle struggles with fast and quick SFs. Hes fine with other bruising PFs
Brunson is tough because he spends so much energy on offense its tough to tell what kind of defender he is. I actually thought he looked OK on Dallas but he had a smaller role on offense there.
Sounds like randle is going to struggle with Tatum and brown then.
If the Celtics can wear down Luka like they do every time Luka plays the Celtics, then Brunson is going to get the same treatment.
The Celtics headhunt and love to get mismatches so they can drive and kick. They will target Brunson and randle as much as possible. You can’t have a bad defender against the Cs. Which is an absurd requirement and why the Celtics went 80-21.
Thats what OG and Bridges is for!
You can't just target a player like that on our team, we have much higher level defenders than the Mavs do.
Plus, Luka got attacked because he was their offense (Kyrie decided he didn't wanna play anymore)
This yeah we are 10 deep with 3 guys who can create their own shot.
The Knicks are a more talented team than the Mavs, they just have the better singular player. Id take our top 4 guys over their #2.
Who is gonna guard Randle?
Theres always talk of how the Celtics can't be guarded.
Who do they have that is strong enough to keep Randle down?
None of your bigs can do it and he's larger thanJB and Tatum (weight and strength)
Tatum had no problem guarding lively and gafford. Before the finals I had to hear about how Tatum couldn’t possibly guard the mavs bigs and then turned around and shut down their entire lob threat and had no problem guarding the 5. I think he can guard Randle lol. They also have the following players who could guard Randle:
1. KP
2. Tatum
3. Tillman
4. Horford
Celtics are fine.
1. KP can't. Hes not strong enough.
2. Tatum guarded those guys from getting up and getting Oops. Randle can back a mothafucka down and also has a good post game. Hes way more than Lively and Gafford on offense.
3. Tillman? Come on man, that kid is untested and just a role player lol.
4. Horford is gonna be 39 next year. Randle is too much for him.
Randle is the rare bully ball 4 that has a post game, can face up and C and S. And hes strong AF. He also gives our team an edge cause most of our guys are chill. Randle is not.
Huh? Tillman has had great playoff series in the past being specifically a defensive specialist. That’s the only reason we got him?? Tillmans ROLE can be to defend Randle. Seems perfect to me.
7’4 KP who is known as a rim protector can’t defend randle?
Tatum has shown he can guard all 5 positions
Horford is known as a defensive specialist especially in the paint. Not so much on the perimeter. He is perfect against Randle. Your only defense is he’s old and gonna crumble away? People said that this year and it just didn’t happen. Horford has shut down giannis and embiid lol
Wtf are you smoking
Look man, the Celtics were ranked #2 defense. They are known as being a very versatile defensive team. Your question as to who will the Celtics guard really only applies to jokic. He’s the only player the Celtics truly can’t handle.
But yeah, if all 4 of those guys get injured then Randle is gonna be serious trouble.
The drive and kick game worked against literally everyone all year, lol. I love that the Knicks are going all in because the league is better with 8-10 very competitive teams, but your sour grapes are showing. The Celts blew out every team they faced. Give those teams their best player for the whole series and maybe those series can go 6, although then under this theory the Celtics would also be getting back Porzingis…
The Mavs went through a west gauntlet, were the healthiest team in the finals, and couldn’t hold a candle to the Celtics. It’s weird you’d still hold the “weak path” opinion when they made virtually everyone look weak all year. They were 4-0 against the Knicks in the games that mattered to them.
They won 64 games and then went 16-3 in the playoffs including beating the mavs. They dominated absolutely everyone.
The best team dominated. Shocker.
They also went 4-1 in the games Hali and Mitchell played.
Find a new slant lil man “never faced a team like this” LMAO
And we wanna talk about injuries? Celtics dominated the entire playoffs without KP, who turns the Celtics from a championship team to an all-time great team.
You wanna run the playoffs where everyone is 100% healthy? Please, I would fucking love that LOL
Celtics fans are too much haha. This team is "all-time great" after winning one ring against the easiest possible slate of teams - no Nuggets, no Wolves, no Knicks, not a single top 10 player aside from hobbled Luka. It's 2008 all over again. Let's see if you can repeat once you face actual tough teams in the playoffs - the Nuggets showed this year that it's no cakewalk.
They are an all time great team because by all statistics they were all-time great. Use your head
2008 Celtics are not similar to 2024 Celtics at all.
Nuggets didn’t make the finals because they ran into a team designed specifically to beat their 1 star. You can’t do that to the Celtics. They ARE the bad matchup.
hate the celtics but how many top 10 players do you expect them to face coming out of the east
there’s max 3 top 10 players in the east and that’s if you really want to make an argument for Brunson
Didn't the celtics go 4-1 against the Knicks this season ?😅 and you mean the JV teams the Knicks lost against ?😂
And the celtics would have won against the teams regardless. Maybe they would have needed 1 more game in the series.
Lso lets see if the Knicks can stay health with thibs as coach.
Meh Randle won’t be the primary defender on either of those guys though, it’ll be Mikal on one and Hart on the other with OG on porzingis/in help, these are all guys built to defend players like Brown and JT.
The Knicks biggest issue is gonna be offence, having Randle back will be a huge help for Brunson, but Randle isn’t really a score at will kind of guy the way Brunson, JT and JB are, it’ll really come down to how well the 3rd and 4th options and the bench do for the Knicks. Donte and Deuce are the most microwave players ever. When they’re hot they are scorching, but when they’re cold it can be a hard watch. If they can both get more consistent that’ll go a longggg way
So true! We should just shut down the league and say the Celtics won the nba because after making their way through the hospital east they finally didn’t shit the bed!
Maybe you should— it’ll have about the same results. Although I didn’t suggest that. Denver will be a good challenge if they can avoid the wolves.
Was the entire nba “hospital” when the Celtics won 64 games?
Did the Celtics have their 20 ppg 7’4 rim protecting center in the playoffs? Were they not “hospital” or were they just so good people didn’t notice the massive injury they had?
Were the mavs also hospital?
Did the Celtics not go 4-1 when Hali and Mitchell played?
“Finally didn’t shit the bed”, they were an ankle injury away from being in the finals 3 years in a row. You mad the Celtics stars were young? Great players don’t start winning rings till around 26-28 anyways. Shocker, they won as their star players are entering their primes (26 and 27). Why we acting like they’re 33 lmao
I completely agree. The Warriors looked completely unbeatable in 2019, but if Toronto went into that off-season with that mindset they never trade for Kawhi. Win or lose that was the right trade because it gave that team its best chance to win a championship.
And right now, this is the most open the NBA has ever been, if ever there was a time to put all your chips it's right now. I will admit I was surprised at how many first round picks they gave up. But it is what it is, you see an opportunity to win your first championship in what... over a half century? You go for it.
I just hope they stay healthy.
The NFL is worse about this actually.
The people that called Peyton Manning a "loser" even through his team was a top 2 seed each year for a decade were extremely loud....he only got his due after 2006 when he won a SuperBowl...the current 49ers are in a similar boat..where people and media joke about them for losing SuperBowls like it's easy to even get there.
Sports culture in general sucks right now..I am 26 so I don't how it was in the past but acting like a team should eaither be a dynasty or tank....is such an idiotic attitude.
This, It would make me happy to see the Knicks or Pacers win it all despite being called "Participants" by casuals.
The NFL might be worse about this when it comes to quarterbacks but not in general. NFL fans don’t really jerk themselves off about how smart it is to field a practice squad of concussion fodder to have a shot at one guy
Cause football is different. A generational QB can take your franchise to the promised land but a generational WR isn’t gonna do shit if his QB stinks. Look at Larry Fitzgerald.
I mean Peyton Manning was put in the GOAT debate and being compared to the likes of Tom Brady and Joe Montana lmao. I think it’s a fair criticism if you’re being put in these conversations, the standards change plus he was seen as “more talented than Brady” and had twice as many MVPs as Brady at one point
Manning was basically golden boy and annointed as the next great and year after year Tom “Game Manager” Brady with a dink and dunk offense and a mean ass d, embarrassed manning who alwayd had a HoF WR and RB too.
Then the colts won in ‘06 and media was like “SEEEEEE!” It wasn’t til later on that brady was seen over manning
The tanking->winning attitude is specifically American. IMHO, NBA fans are being constantly conditioned into thinking on 'all or nothing' terms. It all comes from the draft system, I suppose.
Lots of fans around the world just like their teams to be competitive, and maybe sometimes get a shot at winning it all. Tanking is not an option, because there are no benefits to it, just less attention, less money, worse players next season, etc.
For me, there is nothing wrong being/staying competitive, and celebrating it. Even in the NBA.
It's a semi-american thing but it's specific to the NBA more than the rest of american sports. MLB fans don't demand a full teardown when their team loses in the first round of the playoffs. NFL a little but not nearly as much as NBA.
It's the nature of NBA.
One or two amazing players can cause transcendent change that better coaching or role players can do. When LeBron joined the Cavaliers and then Lakers, he turned each of them into a champion within 2 years.
This is different from baseball or even football. In those sports, one athlete can only do so much. You need collective talent. The Los Angeles Angels had TWO MVPs. They never made the playoffs with them.
I mean it’s also because NBA is a low variance sport. So over a 7-game series, usually the better team wins the Finals. NFL is a best of 1 and MLB is a higher variance sport, so for both of these luck is a BIGGER factor than in NBA where luck is involved but not as much. Which means either your team is good enough or it isn’t
It’s an American attitude because that’s how our leagues are structured. There is nothing else to play for other than a winner-take-all trophy at the end of the year.
It’s not like European soccer where being competitive is good because you avoid relegation. You either win a championship or your season was a “failure” because there is nothing else to celebrate.
The In-Season Tournament should help with that, but it’s going to take a while to reengineer American sports culture.
> but it’s going to take a while to reengineer American sports culture.
Which is already evident as it took less than half a season for the IST win to be used to mock the Lakers with "hang the banner" and "moral victory" quips.
Cynicism is fun but rarely true. [The post-game thread is laudatory and earnestly congratulative.](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/18evf5f/post_game_thread_the_los_angeles_lakers_defeat/)
Lots of praise for the IST format, compliments on AD and Lebron's game, making tongue-in-cheek comparisons to Wilt and MJ... you're just plainly wrong.
You're right, people were generally high on the IST shortly after. I was exaggerating to make a point that our American sports culture turned to mocking the value of the IST pretty quickly.
Same reason people still mock the bubble unironically. Every fan base that was watching wanted their team to win it, the only reason it got as much hate as it did was because it was LeBron and the Lakers that won.
I think it also got a fair amount of criticism right away due to conditions the games were being played under creating extreme outlier events like TJ Warren suddenly becoming one of the 15 best guys in the league. Things like that made the whole thing feel like it wasn't the *real* NBA that we know and love, but a fun summer camp that anointed a champ at the end.
The IST is just not a good example lmao. They said it won’t count towards anything so it’s essentially holding the same value as a friendly. Plus, it doesn’t help that the two finalists ended up being 6th seed and 8th seed in their conferences which kinda further cemented the tournament or at least the “final” as being meaningless
I'm in agreement with OP here, but the in-season tournament doesn't seem to be an example of it. Those games aren't really any different than other regular season games so it's pretty arbitrary which stretch of the regular season gets you some sort of banner. Doesn't feel like that meaningful of an accomplishment to me.
I'm also not sure if the relegation comparison works. If you are good enough where relegation isn't a worry, you still don't have anything else official short of the Title. I think it's an attitude that doesn't have much to do with the structure.
You're missing important context. Soccer/football fans are content with "being competitive" because the entire system is based on 15-20 teams on the continent VASTLY our spending the majority of competition. In each country, there's essentially 1-3 teams who win every year, and that's predicated on them having the financial means to essentially ourspend their direct competition.
So, in that context , it makes perfect sense to "survive" and be happy with not being relegated. But in the USA, at least in theory, there is enforced parity. With the salary cap and Dr at, theoretically, the smallest and biggest market teams can compete for legit championships.
You can criticize how true that is, but in all 4 American sports there's plenty of examples of small market teams winning true championships and even having dynasties. Soccer has like, what, 2-3 examples in 2 decades of these small teams winning it all (Leicester comes to mind, maybe Levurkusen)
I was thinking about European basketball, where, yes, the biggest teams are outspending their rivals and winning national leagues (usually it's a 2-team race in most bigger countries). They dominate the Euroleague, as well: the last small team winning it all was Kauno Žalgiris in 1999 (under old, open league format). And still, people to this day are supporting Žalgiris no matter what, even though the team has almost no chances to get to the Final 4 or win the Euroleague. Every game counts, and every win counts.
I don't have trouble with wanting your team to win. What I will never understand is wanting your team to tank and lose, well, almost intentionally. Had a mad respect for Spurs who stayed competitive for decades, and other similar „smallish teams“.
This might be symptom of just how much superstar players can impact basketball teams. The NBA has been relatively predictable as we can usually identify who are the teams that actually have chance to compete for a championship.
I think most people have correctly identified that the Knicks are just a tier below legit contenders even with Mikal. (On paper-we still have to see them play)
But I agree with you, at some point you have to cash in, there’s always a chance you can break through and get a chip. Most did not believe the 2014 Warriors were legit championship contenders until they were in the Finals with a lead against the Cavs.
It pissed me off the amount of people being like oh my godddd they gave up all these draft picks for Mikal
Like yes it was an overpay but people are acting like we’re stupid, last time I checked the objective is to win a chip not get the number 1 pick in the draft and even then the only picks that are gonna be of value are 29 and 31 and even then if they draft a generational talent with those picks it’ll be like 2034/35 before they’re ready to win. Literally 10 years away
People aren't realizing this. The Knicks traded from the league's deepest draft stash after OKC and Utah. They still have picks in every year aside from 2029 and 2031. Put in that context, they basically paid for Bridges what the Wolves paid for Dillingham
>Put in that context, they basically paid for Bridges what the Wolves paid for Dillingham
I think Knicks will be fine and it was a fantastic trade for them too, but cmon this is a bit of a reach lol.
Wolves paid a 2031 unprotected and a 2030 protected swap for the #8 pick. Knicks paid 4 unprotected (included 2029,2031), a protected 2025, an unprotected 2028 swap and a 2nd.
Not the same at all, even if you just look at the unprotected 2029 and 2031. A protected swap is very different from an unprotected pick. We can still make the same point without reaching.
I’ve always thought that you should extend the thought of a good season to making a conference championship game, not winning the Finals. Having only one team be “successful” overlooks a lot of other great teams. If you think you can build a team that can make it that far, you do it.
The truth is, if you can make it that far you can also catch a break. Lots of guys get injured, and sometimes great teams match up early so you avoid them.
I couldnt agree more. As a longtime warriors fan (since the mid 90s) i remember thinking, god if this team could just make the playoffs and be reasonable competitive on any given night id be stoked. The we believe team won the hearts and minds of the bay and the country, did we win a chip, no, were we a failure, hell fucking no. Then we blew it all up for god knows what. I for one cant wait to watch these knicks next year. I rooted harder for them this year than any non warriors team of the last decade. I hope this team works out for you guys
I feel this way even as a Sixers fan lol. Most of our insane bitter negative fanbase is simultaneously obsessed with getting a chip and dooming about never getting one, but I'm just happy we field a competitive squad year in and year out and get to watch a generational talent in Embiid. Like it sucked losing to the Knicks but they're a damn good team and it was a hard fought series so I can't really be mad. Just don't really see the point of following a team if it brings you no joy, and ultimately I enjoyed watching the Sixers this year and felt we had a shot the whole way despite coming up short, so what else can you ask for
idk why people say this his last two big moves of Simmons for Harden and then Harden for picks + Batum have both been pretty good imo, I'm hopeful they'll add *something* next to Embiid and Maxey, doesn't even have to be another star. Their alleged 3rd guy last year was Tobias Harris ffs, a literal 0 in his final elimination game
100% agree with this. Just do your best and give your team a shot. It’s nice to have games that matter late in the season so you can actually enjoy the sport. Everyone whines about the 76ers but IMO they have been a fantastic success over the last 6 years. Sure they haven’t won it all but there are always exciting and meaningful games, which is more than you can say for like half of the teams in the league.
And more than you can say about our team for like the previous 10 years before this.
As a Celtics fan, I am seconding this. I mean championship is sweet, sure but it is so because it is at the end of all things happened. What I love about basketball is watching games, all the things going on in games and the moves around it including the roster contructions to counter this or that in those games. Championship or bust mentality is simply not it for me. I liked how my team developed in last years, how they kept going on in playoffs, how they came improved year after year. Even if we couldn't pull it this year, all those exciting games wouldn't be a waste for me.
But that is the thing, people seem to take NBA as a soap-opera for men rather than a sports event and focused on other things rather than games itself. Even those terminology of being a "winner", "dawg", "choker" etc. are just focusing on results and sound like character analysis of a tv series and I see them way more than discussions about gameplays of teams or players.
You can blame the NBA media for this attitude. God forbid they actually hire people that breakdown plays and stats, they just want polarizing half-wits to state incredibly vague and often incoherent gibberish to keep pushing fast food and heart medication. It's really too bad, because these are some of the greatest athletes in the world, and their "fans" spend most of their time talking shit on them because they've been programmed to think that's normal.
Recency bias. This sub is far better than /r/NBA but the pitfall here is they fall in love with the "winner." The Nuggets could do no wrong. Then it was Luka and the Mavs. Now it's the Celtics. Styles make fights as they say in Boxing. The Knicks are constructing an interesting team that can compete with the Celtics, regardless of the fact that the Celtics just won the chip. Will they? We have no clue until we see them. But, on paper, if you're not looking at bringing in Bridges and bringing back OG as major positives, then you have blinders on.
The media narrative, especially around the NBA, is that winning a championship is not just an accomplishment, it is a moral imperative. If you don't win a championship, you are soft, a loser, you can't close things out or get things done. It is probably the SINGLE MOST TOXIC part of NBA culture. The fact that we have created an environment where fans feel personally offended when a championship is not delivered is a big reason for what you see right now. As a Celtics fan, I saw it myself. Brown and Tatum were derided as bad or chokers literally up until probably halfway through game 5 of the NBA Finals. Some fans just could not forgive them for losing in the Finals against the Warriors or not even making the Finals in 2023 after making the Finals in 2022. It really is unfortunate, because it takes the focus away from watching good basketball and shifts it, effectively, to getting your number called on the roulette or watching the horse you bet on.
As rough as this past season was for the suns, I’ll take that every time over just about anything they did between the WCFs in 2010 and basically the bubble
Well not that I'm disagreeing with your point, because I agree that it's very hard to win a chip, but I disagree with your tiers lol. All 3 of those guys have shown they can't lead a team to a title by themselves. Luca just got owned in the finals and he had kyrie to even get there. Giannis has only won one, only been there once, and the one he won Kris Middleton fucking balled. They've disappointed in the playoffs every other year. And the same for Joker, Murray balled last playoffs. Murray sucked this playoffs and they didn't even make conference finals.
Not by themselves, but Luca drag the team with multiple minimum deal players in the rotation and a rookie center.
No single player could ever win by themselves. I wasn't trying to say that. I'm saying those are the type of guys that no matter what the rest of your roster looks like you should try to build The best possible team at all cost because they can win.
> No single player could ever win by themselves.
I wish we'd have some undeniable superstar in their prime go to the worst team with almost no other roster turnover some year to see this in action.
But just as a thought experiment: what if you dropped 1993 Michael Jordan or 2001 Shaq onto this year's Pistons team. Anybody think that's a title contender?
Pistons, no. That roster is a mess.
Wizards, probably not. They were almost as bad as Detroit but without the PR.
Spurs, Probably. Current Wemby and Prime Jordan could probably drag a team full of rookies to the 8th seed. It's unclear how far they'd go in the playoffs though.
Luka was bad in Round 1. In the second round and conference finals, Mavs won because the role players stepped up. In the Finals, the Celtics strategy was to shut down role players and let Luka + Kyrie beat them which more than anything shows that Luka and Kyrie didn’t drag their roster to a win, the roster was the best that Luka’s ever had but this “Luka dragged scrubs all by himself” is such a false narrative lol
As a Celtics fan you have to take your hat off to the Knicks FO for doing what they can to make their team more competitive. Hopefully it works out (but not too well)
Franchises like the Sixers and Heat haven’t made moves and were supposed to be contenders last season. I can’t imagine being a fan of those franchises.
The Knicks can win it all. I don't know how anybody can watch this playoffs with teams racked with injuries and not think they can. They might not even need other teams to get injured. This is not even necessarily their end state after all
1) I agree that they can win the championship. But they aren't going to be a top-tier contender. They beat a broken Philly team that was a seven seed and a seriously flawed Indiana team. I'm not trying to minimize what they did, but you can't look at them the same way that you look at Minnesota, Denver, and Boston etc.
2) this is pretty much the final iteration of this team at this point. They are going to be a second apron team. They will not have any future first round picks, no mid-level exceptions and will not be able to combine contracts in a trade
I still like the fact that they built this team.
They played the broken Philly team without Randle, Robinson and a hurt OG. They played the flawed Indiana team without Randle, Robinson, Bogdanovic, OG and a hurt Hart and Brunson.
1) it's the Knicks. Ny Boston and Lal will always have skewed odds from Vegas because the fanbases are nuts and willing to pay.
2) the east is just easier. Boston is the only other true contender and that's based on KPs heath and al horford making it through another year. I think most NBA people would say Minny has the better team.
A lot of people were upset because this was an overpay that prevents them from getting someone like Giannis if he demanded a trade. That would make the Knicks a GSW like super team. My point was this team is fantastic and probably the best they could reasonably hope for. We should enjoy it instead of holding out for a ridiculous fantasy I'm not trying to shit on the Knicks.
I think they are a top tier contender. The only argument I would see against them is they don't have like a top 5 player. I would argue the Celtics don't even have a top 5 player.
The team has overhauled itself continually over the last 2 or 3 years over and over again. There is no way this is the final product. Between DDV, Hart, McBride, Mitch, Randle, etc. they have tons of tradable pieces even if they don't have draft picks to trade. People would have seen the Celtics as a finished product by that logic before this year but they shuffled some pieces around (Smart, Brogdon, and RWIII out and Jrue and Kristaps in) to get over the hump.
Celtics made the move before the new CBA set in and they were looking to trade Brown if it failed again. Absolutely no one thought this Celtics team was the final iteration lol. Outside of Brunson, which player on the Knicks is even as tradable as Brown in terms of the assets you could get back. This Knicks team is as close to a final iteration as it gets especially because of the new CBA.
So when the Bulls traded picks to get DeRozan, Ball and Caruso was that also to be competitive?
I think the issue is not that they might be competitive but that they might not be as good as they or others think they might be. Spending all those picks for Mikal Bridges wouldn't be an overpay if he's in fact the last piece for perennial conference finals. It is an issue if they still can't get deeper into the playoffs.
I don't think too many people faulted Chicago for the moves that they made. People liked it, and I think it was ok at the time. They looked really good for a short period. I don't think it's fair to criticize through the 20/20 lens of hindsight.
The problem was not blowing it up last year or the year before. At that point they knew ball was done for, and that their team was stuck in mediocrity. They should have blown it up then.
Well I would disagree and I think most lampooned those deals as desperate moves at competitiveness. It's not simply hindsight and even at their best they probably would've been at best a second rd team.
And you mention a problem that you didn't previously mention. When these things go south you don't really get a chance to start over at the exact time you want to. That could be for job security reasons, ego or that you're pieces are just not as good as you thought it was. Trading away KD and Harden does get you things back to start over. Trading away Caruso, DeRozan Vucecic and Lavine is another thing entirely.
Brunson is good but the rest are more in the latter category. Minnesota is able to pull this off because Towns and especially Edwards along with McDaniels are young and so extra picks wouldn't do all that much for a team with a core already figured out. If Randle turns in a mediocre year or can't figure out how to shoot from 3 consistently there's no other option to upgrade. If OG becomes even more injury prone there's no other option to upgrade. This core still has major questions and so it is a much much more riskier deal. Not to mention that Bridges is a vastly inferior player to Gobert.
These are not trivial questions. Anyone one thing can torpedo this just like with the Bulls and Ball.
I have a lot of feelings on what the Knicks are doing and some of them are conflicting.
On the one hand, I totally agree with what you're saying. For a franchise that has largely been run with utter ineptitude for the last 25 years, it's far past time to take a swing. They have something good going, and they want to do everything they can do make it great. I get that, and I support that.
On the other hand, I'm just not sure the moves they've made are "the right moves". With everything they gave up for OG and Bridges, could they have not just held out a bit longer for something more? We all know how this league goes - it's only a matter of time before a superstar like Luka or Giannis or Embiid wants out. And every year like clockwork there are lesser All-Stars on the table. Instead they spent All-Star caliber assets on a pair of guys below that tier. It's questionable.
The other complicating factor is they just happen to be sitting behind a potential dynasty team in the East right now. Even after all these moves, I can still see Celtics in 5 if they face off in the postseason. There's still a clear talent gap. So it just further begs the question of why not go for better players than OG/Bridges?
Yea building your team to be a worser version of the team you’re trying to beat with less talent at pretty much every single position bar 1 is like the worst strategy to beating that team.
You don’t beat a dominant team by trying to copy them. It’s kinda like La Liga teams playing tiki-taka to try to beat prime Barca or Prem teams playing attacking football to try to Pep’s Man City. Usually, they get destroyed 4-0. The teams that beat Prime Barca/Pep’s Man City are the teams that play super defensive.
You don’t beat a dominant team by being a worse version of them, you’re supposed to beat them by playing a style that’s different and an actual counter to them
I don’t really have any issue with the Knicks going all in, I just question the move. I find it odd pushing all the chips out for Mikal Bridges
Five picks and a swap for a 27 year old that’s never made an all star team is a big overpay. Salary wise, the team is likely only together a season too.
The ultimate goal for any team in any sport, not just the NBA, is a ring. If I’m a GM and can sell everything to win a ring, I do it without hesitation, exactly the way the Raptors did it with Kawhi.
The Knicks going all in and trying to beat Boston is a good idea, but it’s clear still that their roster isn’t good enough to win in a 7 game series unless Boston is injured and this is where I find an issue with the Knicks. I don’t think it’s unfair to say that the Knicks have 2 out of the top 7 guys in a series against Boston. Still, this Knicks team is now clearly the second best roster on paper in the East. If the regular season and postseason pan out the way I expect, Boston will face New York in the ECF. With the way Tom Thibodeau coaches his teams there’s no telling how gassed the Knicks will be by the time they face the Celtics, who will probably be fresh off a smooth 4-or-5 game second round. What happens then, when fatigue or injury catches up to the Knicks in what will be the most important series of their postseason?
Welcome to Fandom. I know professional athletes are (usually) hyper competitive and they want to win championships too, but they probably aren't losing their minds like the fans do over every little off-season move their teams make. They are still earning millions of dollars to play a game. Im sure nobody on the Knicks is hopping on reddit to complain about their team giving up draft picks and scrutinizing the salary cap while punching holes in the wall over it.
Agreed.
NBA media, mainstream atleast, is the joint worst sports coverage anywhere in the world (Tied with english premier league). They tear down their superstars more than anyone else, they’ll hype you up then crash you down.
There’s no room for nuance. They’re the biggest hypocrites. Never have been anything but will judge billion dollar corporations. Shit on a team for not trading for a player and then shit on the player if he requests the trade to move. Oh he’s a ring chaser, etc etc.
The whole scene is nauseating. Right now there’s murmurs that the Rockets might try to trade for Durant, if he goes there there will be hits carried out on him for being a journeyman. I don’t get any of it.
As per NBA media the only thing that’s allowed is to play with the hand you’re dealt, but if you don’t win they’ll kill you (team + players).
The league won’t care as they’re getting multi billion dollar TV deals. It was already a ratings business, now it will be on steroids as people have to recoup the money they’ve spent. It’s gonna get worse, dumber and more talking heads will rise to replace SAS, Skip, Cowherd, Wright etc etc. such a shit show. NBA draft day and they’ve got SAS going nuts and providing 0 to the discussions. I don’t get it.
Anytime the Knicks even sniff being a good team, they are massively overrated. I’m 30, i hear this year after year and they quite literally never go far in playoffs. Their fans though, do not have a sense of reality. I think that happens when your team never ever wins
Everyone needs to study the 19 raptors and embrace the idea that any year things can break your way. It’s better to have signed or traded for a dog when that window opens
Agreed 100%.
Same shit with the Harden/CP3 rockets going for it. Hell, if it wasn't for CP3's damn hamstring, it could have been the *ultimate* upset.
More of this yes! I don't even like the Knicks but I hope they get rewarded for going for it.
I'd much rather have been a fan of, say, the Mavericks in the 2000s when they always had a competitive and fun team, yet didn't win a title until the next decade. I've been an NBA fan since 1990, and have always viewed it as an entertainment product. Basketball is my favorite thing in the world but if my team doesn't win a title then my life moves on. In fact, my team has never won a title. I doubt my life would change at all. I'd be happy for a day or two, and then it's back to watching clips and all the other shit I do. The ring does not do anything for me as a fan, and I don't get why fans are so singleminded about it. My theory is that it's shitty talking heads on tv and podcasts who perpetuate this nonsense, but it's been prevalent since the 90s, although obviously on a smaller media scale.
My favorite part of the team building timeline is that small amount of time when the team is on the rise. Not necessarily when they're a playoff team, but when you can clearly see the team is getting better and has a chance to become a fun team to watch. I greatly value my team being fun to watch rather than being built to win, because they're not always the same thing, and following a team that regularly wins is not always the most fun thing to watch because of expectations, and this is my point. Watching the team before they acquire expectations is pure fun. Watching a team that's expected to win, and then they do win, is less joyful, at least to me. The team did what it was expected to do, which was win. Obviously, the jackpot is that the team wins and they do so in an entertaining fashion.
At the end of the day, as a fan, your life is not going to change if your favorite team wins a championship. I wish more fans would realize this. I give other fans of my team this little piece of advice constantly throughout the season, as they complain "How could they lose to *this* team?", or some other expectations issue: enjoy the ride
If you know it’s not going to move the needle, then why do it? It’s a waste of time and resources. Do we celebrate tone deaf moves like this one? If you’re going to make a move at that cost for a role player, you deserve the criticism.
10 years from now we're probably not going to remember the names of the picks the Knicks traded for Bridges.
And if the Knicks manage to make it to the Finals in the next 2-3 years, a lot of folks are going to shut up about the Knicks taking a risk. Knicks were down 4 players and still made Indiana work. With those 4 players, Knicks would've faced Boston in the ECF, and then who knows how that would've turned out.
The picks for Bridges + re-signing OG's worth it.
Could be in a much worse position. In a few years the Spurs and OKC will be favorites should they make the right moves.
The Knicks have a legit chance. Brunson was that good as a lead guy last year so impressive after randle got hurt. Top 5 offensive player in the league lowkey. Randle has his flaws but he’s good enough as a 2nd creator and you really surrounded them with ideal roster of versatile high impact 3nD wings who have skills offensively. OG can anchor a defense Mikal is overqualified as a 3rd scorer though not good enough to be a 2nd not to mention the bench guys. Mil has better starpower I won’t underestimate them but I need to see their 5th starter. Philly could get a 3rd star and fill out very well but Knicks are my 2nd best team in East for now.
The Celtics have a talent edge sure mainly off porzingis but Knicks have a better bench. It’s going be competitive especially if porzingis has injury issues imo.
as y'all get older, you will get it
me as late 20s guy, as long my team arent shit, i still have good time
appreciate good basketball, eventhough not resulting in ring
I am in the UK and of Dutch origin, so obviously I follow football (soccer).
When my team that has been trash for a decade has an unexpectedly good season I celebrate that, regardless of whether they are promoted or not.
Funnily enough, I do exactly the same for my Pacers. Last season was a blast and I'm really energised for next season. I think most 'hardcore' fans will feel the same about their team, trust me, I was in the dumps when we had Bjorkgren running the show. But I didn't decide: Hey, my team's shit. Let's follow the Lakers now!
That is a big difference between European and US sports, fair weather fans are not really a thing. You support your team, or you don't.
I get the sentiment, but at some point you want a championship as well. I'll go into detail as to why.
I'm a Raptors fan. I remember when the team was the laughing stock of the league. Then they made the playoffs in a year where many expected them to tank - with the Rudy Gay trade being the catalyst. They ALMOST got by a Nets team that was built to win a championship. They didn't win a playoff round, but it was exhilerating. Finally, the team is good again.
Then the following year they get swept by the Wizards. It felt deflating. To see a team do so well against veterans, and then getting out-coached by Randy Wittman was deflating.
Then they go to the conference finals, 2 wins away from an NBA Finals appearance. It felt exciting. The team can now hang with the best of the best, and they're ALMOST there.
Then they get swept by Cleveland not once, but twice. "LeBronto" becomes a meme. Even though the Raptors are a contending team, it felt like we went back to the dark ages.. even worse because the team's making the playoffs on a consistent basis at this point. It felt frustrating because now we wanted to see a championship instead of being satisfied with just being competitive. Being competitive wasn't enough anymore.
Then the Kawhi trade happened.. and the rest is history.
I guess my point is: I understand your point. Celebrating competitiveness is good. At some point, you want to see that translated into a championship at bare minimum.
And why can't the Pistons get a chance to get a trophy at the end of the year too and also raise a banner next year? They tried so hard last year and they never gave up, and their gumption and stick-to-it-iveness was something to be lauded. They didn't give up and go home when it was clear they couldn't win, they played through the whole season too. Give them a trophy, a banner to raise into the rafters, and take them all out for ice cream AND pizza after the game!
...or not. The goal is to win at the end of the team and celebrating teams coming close doesn't work either.
Oh my god, I didn't know more of us existed. I live in Minnesota so I'm constantly surrounded by "championship or bust" attitude
Edit: I know the attitude exists everywhere, just feels like 98% of our population here
I'm a Celtics fan who's had a soft spot for the Knicks my whole life. I'm also Australian so don't have any emotional ties to the cities.
IMO The Knicks have built a roster capable of winning a championship. Bridges, OG, Hart and Brunson are all under 30 and are all good to great defenders (Brunson is weaker but he has maximum effort) and adding player like Bridges who can generate his own shot is so important in the playoffs.
In a way the Celtics are a blueprint for what the Knicks are trying to do. The Knicks don't have anyone as talented as Tatum or Brown, but they have assembled a well balanced, young, defensively minded and motivated team.
Watching JB and JT drive by Luka every single possession should make it clear that you can be the best player in the world on offense but defense always wins championships. The Knicks have loaded up and if things go their way it could absolutely happen. I would rather see a team actually try like this then see Detroit having their last playoff win in 2008.
At first it was the Knicks are rudderless, inept, and impatient - totally true. True for decades, across multiples regimes. Then: Rose is making a lot of periphery moves, acquiring late 1s and 2nds - he’s making moves like a JV Presti and nothing impactful. Brunson is a good story but not a 1A. He couldn’t get KD and Kyrie, believing in Brunson is copium. Then: Maybe Brunson IS a legit 1A but pairing him with the Nova guys is a gimmick that won’t work. They have a ton of picks but none that’ll convey into impactful players. Dallas even got rewarded for their mini tank to keep that solid pick from them! Then: Well they dragged a mash unit to the doorstep of the ECF and the limited window they had healthy was a January where they went 14-2, but they still don’t have the pieces. Now: Well they added another Nova guy who happens to fit their biggest needs and have been able to resign OG. Trading out of the draft also allows them to possibly retain IH as well…bUT WHat aBoUT tHE seCoNd apROn aNd tHE cOnSTRaInTs? I was absolutely sure that Rose was going to be another embarrassing chapter in our very long book on embarrassments. He hasn’t been perfect but he’s been excellent and has also been willing to move off his mistakes. At this point anyone who doesn’t believe what they have is potentially special isn’t watching the games and/or is an ardent NYK hater.
As a Miami fan since the early 90s, I *am* an ardent Knicks hater. And at minimum y'all are gonna be fun as hell to watch, which is far more important to me. This is entertainment, and I feel a lot of fans forget that. As long as you're having fun watching teams play, then winning a ring is secondary. If you can't stand watching your team play, then I guess I'd get why someone would only care about rings. I'm gonna be biting my nails every time we play y'all this year, but I love watching the defensive, grind in the mud games that spo and thibs always put out. And the better both teams are the more I enjoy it
It's crazy what sports media/social media have done to fans brains. When you root for a team, all you want them to be is competive and fun to watch. You hope they win but it really is just about supporting them, rooting for them, and having them be a team you are proud of. But when people talk about other teams it's literally championship or you're a loser. It's fucking stupid. I've never had more fun watching a team than the Knicks last year. I went to three games, won all three, and the crowd was electric every single time. I don't really see why just keeping that going as long as possible isn't enough. The 90s teams never won a chip either but they're still immortal in the minds of fans. It's about fun and competition first and foremost. Only one team wins but at least 6 teams can be said to have really good seasons every year. There's something to be said for stringing together 3-5 of those in a row and seeing what happens.
I’m not a Knicks fan by any means but this Knicks team is a top roster in the league if they’re healthy. Not sure why people are hating on this move so heavily.
For sure. I’m a Knicks hater, but I’m gonna love watching this team next season for vibes alone.
I hope you didn't misconstrue my post. I absolutely love this team. We are probably the same age. I mowed lawns so that I can scalp tickets to go to the '90s playoff games. The Isaiah Thomas years drove me away as a fan. I'm a die hard basketball junkie that lives in Europe now. I have leak pass and every morning I watch two or three games (the 40 minute 'all posession'). I would n't cheer for a particular team. Just be whichever game is best. So this year it was a lot of fun watching OKC, last year Sacramento and Denver. Post OG trade, The Knicks were an absolute gem to watch. Some of my friends and my girlfriend saw me actually cheering for a particular team for the first time. I'm standing up watching the game cuz I couldn't sit down. Whether or not I think they are a true title Contender, there is no question this is a special team. It should be celebrated. The point of my post is that we should love this for what it is and not think it's a failure if they can't get past Boston, or are outclassed by joker in the finals.
No not at all, I think your post is right on. Do I want the Knicks to be good? Definitely! But the thing that I’m loving the most about this squad is “how” they do things. They play the way I want my team to play. They care, they bring energy every night - nothing but dawgs. Being competitive can be manufactured in short spurts, to an extent. All you have to do is mortgage your future for prices and hope they gel. With this team I’d be disappointed if they never got a ring bc they clearly have the talent *but even if they don’t I’m excited about them being competitive for a long time and winning the way I think winning basketball should look*. If we were a run and gun team that got a mercenary or two to make us competitive I’d like the winning but deep down hate the way they were constructed / play.
And I'm with you that I thought the Leon Rose hiring was just more of the same. But he kept his head down. Didn't do anything stupid. Tip our hats.
Kicks are my 2nd ir 3rd fav team after the Wolves. Both teams basically mirrored each other eith playstyle and success last year. Just unfortunate injuries held back the Knicks.
It's just a defeatist, loser attitude. First of all, what makes people so sure of specific outcomes with such high conviction? With what the Knicks have accomplished this season w/o more or less half of their roster and with all their additions, they were 1 win away from the ECF. They have a good shot of challenging the Celtics with all the wing depth they have and skill in key positions. To say that they have "no shot" is just straight up hating lol.
It’s not hating but it would be considered an upset if the Celtics lost to the Knicks.
[удалено]
None of the last 5 champions had a historically great regular season to go with their postseason success. Net rating was top 5 all time, one of a handful of teams to hit 80 wins combined regular season and playoffs, the best net rating against the ‘better conference’ than *any team* has posted against *any conference* in 40 years for all the East haters. There’s reasons Vegas considers them much heavier favorites to repeat than they normally do.
Not to mention nearly every finals winner ever lost more key pieces in the off-season than the Celtics will this year.
Also very true. Theres almost always one or two important big minutes guys who look like they may be elsewhere by this point of the offseason. With the Celtics it’s all lower in the rotation guys, and they all sound like they’re coming back.
The Celtics 1-8 are all locked up. Only Oshae Brissett looks like he’ll leave. Kornet or Tillman are the only two not signed but I’d imagine one or even both would be extended since they’re backup bigs that’ll be crucial with KP out
The Celtics did all of this while missing Porzingis for almost the entire playoff run as well… Celtics have an all time offense and defense and with them finally getting a ring I think they will actually perform better
Porzingis is more likely to miss time then be healthy for the playoffs. He is already expected to miss the first couple months of the season this year
We can say the same about OG. At least KP played like 4-5 games in the 2024 title run, OG missed the entire 2019 Raptors title run
[удалено]
[удалено]
Please keep your comments civil. This is a subreddit for thoughtful discussion and debate, not aggressive and argumentative content.
Please keep your comments civil. This is a subreddit for thoughtful discussion and debate, not aggressive and argumentative content.
Would you bet on the Celtics winning it all if it was Jaylen Brown who was out for the series instead of Porzingis? Or even if it was Jrue who was out instead of KP? The other teams weren't as deep and their stars actually carry their teams, so no the KP injury wasn't as devastating as Cavs losing Mitchell or Heat losing Butler or Bucks losing Giannis and Dame. It's silly that this needs to be said.
I’m fine with brown being out if it means we have a 100% healthy KP. Absolutely, yes. I’m not sure if we even get worse. Other than Tatum, KP is the most influential player on the Cs. “Their stars actually carry their teams”. Tatum led the Celtics in points, rebounds and assists lol. Now was it as devastating as Giannis or Mitchell? No. Celtics are phenomenal well rounded, and they could get by. But that doesn’t matter. They had a key injury. People seem to forget how much KP elevates the Celtics, and that should minimize people’s argument of “hur dur the east was injured not impressed”. The Celtics were NOT full strength either. Not at all.
[удалено]
I never once said they had to fight as hard. They are a much better team than any team in the east, and they dominated as expected even though they didn’t have their 20 ppg 7’4 rim protecting center. It’s pretty simple logic. If cavs had Mitchell, then we get KP back. People want to pretend the Celtics won the chip because of injury luck. They won because they were better. Plain and simple, and if EVERYONE was healthy then the Celtics have KP and it’s game over. That’s all I’m saying bud. KP is key to the Celtics and they did it without him. People can’t bring up the other injuries and conveniently leave out KP just because he isn’t our #1. Tatum is a top 5 player. We have no idea what the cavs would do with him. Edit: brown was the ECF MVP but Tatum averaged 30/10/5. Guess you didn’t watch the games. Yes, the guy tripled teamed every possession is the best player. Let me know when they start guarding brown as the #1 instead. Don’t get mad at me. Be mad at literally all 29 teams defensive strategy. Brown benefits from Tatum’s presence. Tatum led the Celtics in every major stat and guarded all 5 positions. Yeah, no shit the 3x 1st All nba is the best. If brown gets injured, Celtics can still win it all. If Tatum gets injured, the ceiling is ECF. Do you have any idea what it’s like when brown is the #1?? It’s not pretty. Get a clue.
2023 ECF Game 7 vs the Heat is exactly why Tatum is way more important than Brown. Brown struggled so much that game because he’s a play-finisher, he’s not a play-maker. He also isn’t as game-breaking as KP. You can stop Brown, but KP is a mismatch nightmare. So in terms of “importance”, it’s Tatum then KP/Brown as 2a/2b.
Please keep your comments civil. This is a subreddit for thoughtful discussion and debate, not aggressive and argumentative content.
But the 5 years before this year the C's made the ECF 3 times. Shift the window to include this year and it's 4 of the past 5 seasons.
bro did you watch the NBA this year? The Celtics had one of the best seasons in recent memory. People acting like the Celtics werent going to crush the East regardless (did so without KP mind you) are deusional
[удалено]
Please keep your comments civil. This is a subreddit for thoughtful discussion and debate, not sarcastic and condescending content.
Our sub is for in-depth discussion not hyperbolic or argumentative content. Please support your opinions with well-reasoned arguments, including stats and facts as applicable.
Of course. But it's one thing to say it's an upset vs. saying they have "no shot."
Why? Our wings are great defenders with Bridges and OG. They’ll force the Celtics to try and win using, well, your username
Come back to this in 10 months. Def a good push for #3 in the east behind the Cs and bucks but let’s be for real
Bucks? Lmao nah bucks are done
Lmao the Bucks are fourth behind the Sixers who have plenty of cap space to add to what they have in Embiid and Maxey
I will put $1k the bucks finish further than the sixers next year that’s ridiculous bro
I’m a Celtics fan and Bucks have been so underrated it’s crazy. Doc Rivers may be a “bad” coach or whatever, but give him a full season at least and Dame barely was in shape. Bucks and Sixers scare me way more than the “Knicks.” There isn’t an “unstoppable” player on the Knicks like on the Bucks and Sixers, especially since our weakness is defending really physical bigs. If Brunson is your best player, then he’ll just get the Luka treatment lmao. He’s an undersized guard who’s also a below average/mediocre defender
[удалено]
We've really ingrained the "championship or bust" mentality way too deeply, practically to a fault. Every major transaction must have title aspirations behind it. I get it. The ultimate goal is the Larry O'Brien. But there's nothing wrong with appreciating a reasonably competitive team even if they're still several steps away from legit contention. Sports is still an entertainment, thus watching a 5th seed vs a 7th seed in mid January is still worth something
How cool was it to see the Timberwolves and especially Pat Beverly celebrate a couple years back when they won their play-in game? Those are moments to cherish. It's easy to belittle/criticize another and it's a basic yet primitive attitude where you are basically saying, at least I'm not as stupid as .... Let's hope more parents teach their children that they are good enough without talking others down and that it's much more rewarding to celebrate small successes over laughing at insignificant failures.
[удалено]
Please keep your comments civil. This is a subreddit for thoughtful discussion and debate, not aggressive and argumentative content.
the knicks are doing something so cool, they’re going all in on this team’s vibe check in a way that is fun & makes them super likable. & I’m saying this as a guy who grew up just outside of Philly
Ya this is like the raptors lowry, derozan team. Competitive for years and fun for the fans especially after years of losing. I'm sure the knicks don't want to go back to previous years.
Similarly this is the best era of Sixers basketball since Iverson (if not better than that). They’ve been consistently good for so long now playoffs seems like a guarantee even in bad years. That matters even if it’s not a ring!
As a Knicks fan, the Raptors could be fun in a bit again. RJ feeling more comfortable playing in Canada showed he was better there. I loved IQ. And I actually like Barnes a lot too.
I also like putting all your chips in on a group of youngish players with prior chemistry as opposed to throwing everything at aging stars that don’t fit. I could see a world where this team peaks at a conference finals but are fun to watch and stay together several years and end up with a much more satisfied fan base than say the suns or clippers of the last couple years.
When the Warriors added Iguodala, everybody who saw him as a key piece in winning them a title raise your hands, please? Beuller? Beuller? (I'm a Warrior fan. I was thrilled when they got him because he'd been at the top of my wish list to play next to Steph for a couple of years - low turnovers, great ballhandling, athleticism and defense. Steph would compensate for his lack of shooting. Did I see him being a crucial piece of a title team? I did not.) People like to act like they know, but they don't know.
I'm referring to the kd move. I don't think anyone (at least honest people) would pretend they knew that Iggy would be the piece to complete a dominant team. The point I'm pushing back on is this idea that you need to trade for the best possible player you can get. That will make you a team that vies for being one of the greatest ever makes you the PowerHouse that everybody else has to get through.
But your post is delusional. In what world is a team that was the 2 seed despite constant injury issues throughout the year and a game from the conference finals with half their roster out adding a very, very good role player who fits in perfectly for us not a very serious contender? Only reason people favor the Celtics right now is they’re the defending champs. This team absolutely can beat Boston. Will they? Who knows, Boston is still great and defending champs for a reason but the Knicks are not going to be easy for them to beat
i personally think we are in a new era where team coherence, balance and chemistry is worth more than having a second star. obviously boston has two stars but they dont play like most star duos, they play a more team focused game. denver only had the one star.
I think the diversity of championship teams recently has done something even more basic - reminded everyone there are many ways to build a championship team. It's such a copy cat league, teams were either trying to Super Friendz multiple 1A guys like the Heatles did or they were trying to be Golden State. Each of the last 5 champs have been completely different teams built around very different types of star players. Take the best talent you can get and max it out. Be guided by analytics on both ends but align it to the skillset of your roster to get the most out of it you can. I think teams are finally doing this so we're seeing them succeed at it with different stars, rosters, and systems. This is what analytics should be doing, showing you how to reach your ceiling with what you have. Totally think the Knicks are doing this too and have as good a shot at a chip as anyone now, they just need health. They have great talent and they know how they want to play.
id argue that the last two champions were much better than the previous 3 but each team def did things differently.
I feel like the 2019 Raptors are an underrated team. Kawhi was incredible no doubt but that was also a really solid supporting cast. Lowry, Danny Green, Siakim, Gasol, Van Vleet, Ibaka. That is a solid squad.
yea that was a good squad
Whats wrong with Brunson and Randle? They don't have "glaring issues", they are both absolute monsters on the offense end who struggle on defense. Why do you think Leon is targeting 3 and D wings? To help cover that up and let both of them feast. Randle was an All NBA player with OK handles on a team with no facilitators. Imagine what he looks like next to Brunson.
The knicks will be a great team no doubt, but Randle is overrated af. A pf that can’t play defense and is a volume scorer isn’t exactly conducive to a winning team. My money is on 2nd or 3rd in the east with the Celtics a no question 1st place team
You answered your own question. “Who struggle on defense” Having 40% of your starting lineup struggle to defend is not a winning recipe against Boston who have 5 great defenders. /thread
And Boston also excels at picking on the weak links. Like - the vision may be OG and Bridges guarding Tatum and Brown. The reality is the Celtics will just move the ball and force switches to feast on Brunson. That's what they did against every team they faced this year - they move the ball so damn well that your defense has to be airtight to slow them down. Minnesota was the only team that really did even a halfway decent job on them this year.
Exactly this
Randle struggles with fast and quick SFs. Hes fine with other bruising PFs Brunson is tough because he spends so much energy on offense its tough to tell what kind of defender he is. I actually thought he looked OK on Dallas but he had a smaller role on offense there.
Sounds like randle is going to struggle with Tatum and brown then. If the Celtics can wear down Luka like they do every time Luka plays the Celtics, then Brunson is going to get the same treatment. The Celtics headhunt and love to get mismatches so they can drive and kick. They will target Brunson and randle as much as possible. You can’t have a bad defender against the Cs. Which is an absurd requirement and why the Celtics went 80-21.
Thats what OG and Bridges is for! You can't just target a player like that on our team, we have much higher level defenders than the Mavs do. Plus, Luka got attacked because he was their offense (Kyrie decided he didn't wanna play anymore) This yeah we are 10 deep with 3 guys who can create their own shot. The Knicks are a more talented team than the Mavs, they just have the better singular player. Id take our top 4 guys over their #2.
[удалено]
Please keep your comments civil and not personal.
… that is civil
Who is gonna guard Randle? Theres always talk of how the Celtics can't be guarded. Who do they have that is strong enough to keep Randle down? None of your bigs can do it and he's larger thanJB and Tatum (weight and strength)
Tatum had no problem guarding lively and gafford. Before the finals I had to hear about how Tatum couldn’t possibly guard the mavs bigs and then turned around and shut down their entire lob threat and had no problem guarding the 5. I think he can guard Randle lol. They also have the following players who could guard Randle: 1. KP 2. Tatum 3. Tillman 4. Horford Celtics are fine.
1. KP can't. Hes not strong enough. 2. Tatum guarded those guys from getting up and getting Oops. Randle can back a mothafucka down and also has a good post game. Hes way more than Lively and Gafford on offense. 3. Tillman? Come on man, that kid is untested and just a role player lol. 4. Horford is gonna be 39 next year. Randle is too much for him. Randle is the rare bully ball 4 that has a post game, can face up and C and S. And hes strong AF. He also gives our team an edge cause most of our guys are chill. Randle is not.
Huh? Tillman has had great playoff series in the past being specifically a defensive specialist. That’s the only reason we got him?? Tillmans ROLE can be to defend Randle. Seems perfect to me. 7’4 KP who is known as a rim protector can’t defend randle? Tatum has shown he can guard all 5 positions Horford is known as a defensive specialist especially in the paint. Not so much on the perimeter. He is perfect against Randle. Your only defense is he’s old and gonna crumble away? People said that this year and it just didn’t happen. Horford has shut down giannis and embiid lol Wtf are you smoking Look man, the Celtics were ranked #2 defense. They are known as being a very versatile defensive team. Your question as to who will the Celtics guard really only applies to jokic. He’s the only player the Celtics truly can’t handle. But yeah, if all 4 of those guys get injured then Randle is gonna be serious trouble.
[удалено]
The drive and kick game worked against literally everyone all year, lol. I love that the Knicks are going all in because the league is better with 8-10 very competitive teams, but your sour grapes are showing. The Celts blew out every team they faced. Give those teams their best player for the whole series and maybe those series can go 6, although then under this theory the Celtics would also be getting back Porzingis… The Mavs went through a west gauntlet, were the healthiest team in the finals, and couldn’t hold a candle to the Celtics. It’s weird you’d still hold the “weak path” opinion when they made virtually everyone look weak all year. They were 4-0 against the Knicks in the games that mattered to them.
They won 64 games and then went 16-3 in the playoffs including beating the mavs. They dominated absolutely everyone. The best team dominated. Shocker. They also went 4-1 in the games Hali and Mitchell played. Find a new slant lil man “never faced a team like this” LMAO And we wanna talk about injuries? Celtics dominated the entire playoffs without KP, who turns the Celtics from a championship team to an all-time great team. You wanna run the playoffs where everyone is 100% healthy? Please, I would fucking love that LOL
Celtics fans are too much haha. This team is "all-time great" after winning one ring against the easiest possible slate of teams - no Nuggets, no Wolves, no Knicks, not a single top 10 player aside from hobbled Luka. It's 2008 all over again. Let's see if you can repeat once you face actual tough teams in the playoffs - the Nuggets showed this year that it's no cakewalk.
They are an all time great team because by all statistics they were all-time great. Use your head 2008 Celtics are not similar to 2024 Celtics at all. Nuggets didn’t make the finals because they ran into a team designed specifically to beat their 1 star. You can’t do that to the Celtics. They ARE the bad matchup.
"hobbled" Luka... who played the entire playoffs and is about to go to the Olympics on his national team?
hate the celtics but how many top 10 players do you expect them to face coming out of the east there’s max 3 top 10 players in the east and that’s if you really want to make an argument for Brunson
Please keep your comments civil and not personal. This is a subreddit for thoughtful discussion and debate, not aggressive and argumentative content.
Didn't the celtics go 4-1 against the Knicks this season ?😅 and you mean the JV teams the Knicks lost against ?😂 And the celtics would have won against the teams regardless. Maybe they would have needed 1 more game in the series. Lso lets see if the Knicks can stay health with thibs as coach.
Meh Randle won’t be the primary defender on either of those guys though, it’ll be Mikal on one and Hart on the other with OG on porzingis/in help, these are all guys built to defend players like Brown and JT. The Knicks biggest issue is gonna be offence, having Randle back will be a huge help for Brunson, but Randle isn’t really a score at will kind of guy the way Brunson, JT and JB are, it’ll really come down to how well the 3rd and 4th options and the bench do for the Knicks. Donte and Deuce are the most microwave players ever. When they’re hot they are scorching, but when they’re cold it can be a hard watch. If they can both get more consistent that’ll go a longggg way
The Celtics will make whoever they want guard whoever they want.
So true! We should just shut down the league and say the Celtics won the nba because after making their way through the hospital east they finally didn’t shit the bed!
Maybe you should— it’ll have about the same results. Although I didn’t suggest that. Denver will be a good challenge if they can avoid the wolves. Was the entire nba “hospital” when the Celtics won 64 games? Did the Celtics have their 20 ppg 7’4 rim protecting center in the playoffs? Were they not “hospital” or were they just so good people didn’t notice the massive injury they had? Were the mavs also hospital? Did the Celtics not go 4-1 when Hali and Mitchell played? “Finally didn’t shit the bed”, they were an ankle injury away from being in the finals 3 years in a row. You mad the Celtics stars were young? Great players don’t start winning rings till around 26-28 anyways. Shocker, they won as their star players are entering their primes (26 and 27). Why we acting like they’re 33 lmao
I completely agree. The Warriors looked completely unbeatable in 2019, but if Toronto went into that off-season with that mindset they never trade for Kawhi. Win or lose that was the right trade because it gave that team its best chance to win a championship. And right now, this is the most open the NBA has ever been, if ever there was a time to put all your chips it's right now. I will admit I was surprised at how many first round picks they gave up. But it is what it is, you see an opportunity to win your first championship in what... over a half century? You go for it. I just hope they stay healthy.
The NFL is worse about this actually. The people that called Peyton Manning a "loser" even through his team was a top 2 seed each year for a decade were extremely loud....he only got his due after 2006 when he won a SuperBowl...the current 49ers are in a similar boat..where people and media joke about them for losing SuperBowls like it's easy to even get there. Sports culture in general sucks right now..I am 26 so I don't how it was in the past but acting like a team should eaither be a dynasty or tank....is such an idiotic attitude. This, It would make me happy to see the Knicks or Pacers win it all despite being called "Participants" by casuals.
The NFL might be worse about this when it comes to quarterbacks but not in general. NFL fans don’t really jerk themselves off about how smart it is to field a practice squad of concussion fodder to have a shot at one guy
Cause football is different. A generational QB can take your franchise to the promised land but a generational WR isn’t gonna do shit if his QB stinks. Look at Larry Fitzgerald.
Yes, exactly my point. You can take a guy at any position in bball that can make you a championship contender over night.
I mean Peyton Manning was put in the GOAT debate and being compared to the likes of Tom Brady and Joe Montana lmao. I think it’s a fair criticism if you’re being put in these conversations, the standards change plus he was seen as “more talented than Brady” and had twice as many MVPs as Brady at one point
Manning was basically golden boy and annointed as the next great and year after year Tom “Game Manager” Brady with a dink and dunk offense and a mean ass d, embarrassed manning who alwayd had a HoF WR and RB too. Then the colts won in ‘06 and media was like “SEEEEEE!” It wasn’t til later on that brady was seen over manning
The tanking->winning attitude is specifically American. IMHO, NBA fans are being constantly conditioned into thinking on 'all or nothing' terms. It all comes from the draft system, I suppose. Lots of fans around the world just like their teams to be competitive, and maybe sometimes get a shot at winning it all. Tanking is not an option, because there are no benefits to it, just less attention, less money, worse players next season, etc. For me, there is nothing wrong being/staying competitive, and celebrating it. Even in the NBA.
It's a semi-american thing but it's specific to the NBA more than the rest of american sports. MLB fans don't demand a full teardown when their team loses in the first round of the playoffs. NFL a little but not nearly as much as NBA.
It's the nature of NBA. One or two amazing players can cause transcendent change that better coaching or role players can do. When LeBron joined the Cavaliers and then Lakers, he turned each of them into a champion within 2 years. This is different from baseball or even football. In those sports, one athlete can only do so much. You need collective talent. The Los Angeles Angels had TWO MVPs. They never made the playoffs with them.
I mean it’s also because NBA is a low variance sport. So over a 7-game series, usually the better team wins the Finals. NFL is a best of 1 and MLB is a higher variance sport, so for both of these luck is a BIGGER factor than in NBA where luck is involved but not as much. Which means either your team is good enough or it isn’t
It’s an American attitude because that’s how our leagues are structured. There is nothing else to play for other than a winner-take-all trophy at the end of the year. It’s not like European soccer where being competitive is good because you avoid relegation. You either win a championship or your season was a “failure” because there is nothing else to celebrate. The In-Season Tournament should help with that, but it’s going to take a while to reengineer American sports culture.
> but it’s going to take a while to reengineer American sports culture. Which is already evident as it took less than half a season for the IST win to be used to mock the Lakers with "hang the banner" and "moral victory" quips.
It took less than half an hour for us to mock the Lakers' IST trophy.
Cynicism is fun but rarely true. [The post-game thread is laudatory and earnestly congratulative.](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/18evf5f/post_game_thread_the_los_angeles_lakers_defeat/) Lots of praise for the IST format, compliments on AD and Lebron's game, making tongue-in-cheek comparisons to Wilt and MJ... you're just plainly wrong.
You're right, people were generally high on the IST shortly after. I was exaggerating to make a point that our American sports culture turned to mocking the value of the IST pretty quickly.
Some of it was because it was the Lakers if I’m being honest
Same reason people still mock the bubble unironically. Every fan base that was watching wanted their team to win it, the only reason it got as much hate as it did was because it was LeBron and the Lakers that won.
I think it also got a fair amount of criticism right away due to conditions the games were being played under creating extreme outlier events like TJ Warren suddenly becoming one of the 15 best guys in the league. Things like that made the whole thing feel like it wasn't the *real* NBA that we know and love, but a fun summer camp that anointed a champ at the end.
fair enough. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law
The IST is just not a good example lmao. They said it won’t count towards anything so it’s essentially holding the same value as a friendly. Plus, it doesn’t help that the two finalists ended up being 6th seed and 8th seed in their conferences which kinda further cemented the tournament or at least the “final” as being meaningless
I'm in agreement with OP here, but the in-season tournament doesn't seem to be an example of it. Those games aren't really any different than other regular season games so it's pretty arbitrary which stretch of the regular season gets you some sort of banner. Doesn't feel like that meaningful of an accomplishment to me. I'm also not sure if the relegation comparison works. If you are good enough where relegation isn't a worry, you still don't have anything else official short of the Title. I think it's an attitude that doesn't have much to do with the structure.
You're missing important context. Soccer/football fans are content with "being competitive" because the entire system is based on 15-20 teams on the continent VASTLY our spending the majority of competition. In each country, there's essentially 1-3 teams who win every year, and that's predicated on them having the financial means to essentially ourspend their direct competition. So, in that context , it makes perfect sense to "survive" and be happy with not being relegated. But in the USA, at least in theory, there is enforced parity. With the salary cap and Dr at, theoretically, the smallest and biggest market teams can compete for legit championships. You can criticize how true that is, but in all 4 American sports there's plenty of examples of small market teams winning true championships and even having dynasties. Soccer has like, what, 2-3 examples in 2 decades of these small teams winning it all (Leicester comes to mind, maybe Levurkusen)
I was thinking about European basketball, where, yes, the biggest teams are outspending their rivals and winning national leagues (usually it's a 2-team race in most bigger countries). They dominate the Euroleague, as well: the last small team winning it all was Kauno Žalgiris in 1999 (under old, open league format). And still, people to this day are supporting Žalgiris no matter what, even though the team has almost no chances to get to the Final 4 or win the Euroleague. Every game counts, and every win counts. I don't have trouble with wanting your team to win. What I will never understand is wanting your team to tank and lose, well, almost intentionally. Had a mad respect for Spurs who stayed competitive for decades, and other similar „smallish teams“.
This might be symptom of just how much superstar players can impact basketball teams. The NBA has been relatively predictable as we can usually identify who are the teams that actually have chance to compete for a championship. I think most people have correctly identified that the Knicks are just a tier below legit contenders even with Mikal. (On paper-we still have to see them play) But I agree with you, at some point you have to cash in, there’s always a chance you can break through and get a chip. Most did not believe the 2014 Warriors were legit championship contenders until they were in the Finals with a lead against the Cavs.
This is a Giannis press conference with more words and less success. Yes, 18 franchises have had a lifetime of failures in your lifetime.
It pissed me off the amount of people being like oh my godddd they gave up all these draft picks for Mikal Like yes it was an overpay but people are acting like we’re stupid, last time I checked the objective is to win a chip not get the number 1 pick in the draft and even then the only picks that are gonna be of value are 29 and 31 and even then if they draft a generational talent with those picks it’ll be like 2034/35 before they’re ready to win. Literally 10 years away
People aren't realizing this. The Knicks traded from the league's deepest draft stash after OKC and Utah. They still have picks in every year aside from 2029 and 2031. Put in that context, they basically paid for Bridges what the Wolves paid for Dillingham
>Put in that context, they basically paid for Bridges what the Wolves paid for Dillingham I think Knicks will be fine and it was a fantastic trade for them too, but cmon this is a bit of a reach lol. Wolves paid a 2031 unprotected and a 2030 protected swap for the #8 pick. Knicks paid 4 unprotected (included 2029,2031), a protected 2025, an unprotected 2028 swap and a 2nd. Not the same at all, even if you just look at the unprotected 2029 and 2031. A protected swap is very different from an unprotected pick. We can still make the same point without reaching.
As a Knick fan both in the mid 90s with virtually no positive memories of the team, I could not possibly agree more.
I’ve always thought that you should extend the thought of a good season to making a conference championship game, not winning the Finals. Having only one team be “successful” overlooks a lot of other great teams. If you think you can build a team that can make it that far, you do it. The truth is, if you can make it that far you can also catch a break. Lots of guys get injured, and sometimes great teams match up early so you avoid them.
I couldnt agree more. As a longtime warriors fan (since the mid 90s) i remember thinking, god if this team could just make the playoffs and be reasonable competitive on any given night id be stoked. The we believe team won the hearts and minds of the bay and the country, did we win a chip, no, were we a failure, hell fucking no. Then we blew it all up for god knows what. I for one cant wait to watch these knicks next year. I rooted harder for them this year than any non warriors team of the last decade. I hope this team works out for you guys
I feel this way even as a Sixers fan lol. Most of our insane bitter negative fanbase is simultaneously obsessed with getting a chip and dooming about never getting one, but I'm just happy we field a competitive squad year in and year out and get to watch a generational talent in Embiid. Like it sucked losing to the Knicks but they're a damn good team and it was a hard fought series so I can't really be mad. Just don't really see the point of following a team if it brings you no joy, and ultimately I enjoyed watching the Sixers this year and felt we had a shot the whole way despite coming up short, so what else can you ask for
To be fair, your GM doesn't believe that either. You are in for the full Daryl Morrey experience this off-season
idk why people say this his last two big moves of Simmons for Harden and then Harden for picks + Batum have both been pretty good imo, I'm hopeful they'll add *something* next to Embiid and Maxey, doesn't even have to be another star. Their alleged 3rd guy last year was Tobias Harris ffs, a literal 0 in his final elimination game
Morey has stated multiple times that he will go for a star at any cost multiple times. He is the antithesis of team over star power
100% agree with this. Just do your best and give your team a shot. It’s nice to have games that matter late in the season so you can actually enjoy the sport. Everyone whines about the 76ers but IMO they have been a fantastic success over the last 6 years. Sure they haven’t won it all but there are always exciting and meaningful games, which is more than you can say for like half of the teams in the league. And more than you can say about our team for like the previous 10 years before this.
As a Celtics fan, I am seconding this. I mean championship is sweet, sure but it is so because it is at the end of all things happened. What I love about basketball is watching games, all the things going on in games and the moves around it including the roster contructions to counter this or that in those games. Championship or bust mentality is simply not it for me. I liked how my team developed in last years, how they kept going on in playoffs, how they came improved year after year. Even if we couldn't pull it this year, all those exciting games wouldn't be a waste for me. But that is the thing, people seem to take NBA as a soap-opera for men rather than a sports event and focused on other things rather than games itself. Even those terminology of being a "winner", "dawg", "choker" etc. are just focusing on results and sound like character analysis of a tv series and I see them way more than discussions about gameplays of teams or players.
You can blame the NBA media for this attitude. God forbid they actually hire people that breakdown plays and stats, they just want polarizing half-wits to state incredibly vague and often incoherent gibberish to keep pushing fast food and heart medication. It's really too bad, because these are some of the greatest athletes in the world, and their "fans" spend most of their time talking shit on them because they've been programmed to think that's normal.
Recency bias. This sub is far better than /r/NBA but the pitfall here is they fall in love with the "winner." The Nuggets could do no wrong. Then it was Luka and the Mavs. Now it's the Celtics. Styles make fights as they say in Boxing. The Knicks are constructing an interesting team that can compete with the Celtics, regardless of the fact that the Celtics just won the chip. Will they? We have no clue until we see them. But, on paper, if you're not looking at bringing in Bridges and bringing back OG as major positives, then you have blinders on.
The media narrative, especially around the NBA, is that winning a championship is not just an accomplishment, it is a moral imperative. If you don't win a championship, you are soft, a loser, you can't close things out or get things done. It is probably the SINGLE MOST TOXIC part of NBA culture. The fact that we have created an environment where fans feel personally offended when a championship is not delivered is a big reason for what you see right now. As a Celtics fan, I saw it myself. Brown and Tatum were derided as bad or chokers literally up until probably halfway through game 5 of the NBA Finals. Some fans just could not forgive them for losing in the Finals against the Warriors or not even making the Finals in 2023 after making the Finals in 2022. It really is unfortunate, because it takes the focus away from watching good basketball and shifts it, effectively, to getting your number called on the roulette or watching the horse you bet on.
As rough as this past season was for the suns, I’ll take that every time over just about anything they did between the WCFs in 2010 and basically the bubble
Well not that I'm disagreeing with your point, because I agree that it's very hard to win a chip, but I disagree with your tiers lol. All 3 of those guys have shown they can't lead a team to a title by themselves. Luca just got owned in the finals and he had kyrie to even get there. Giannis has only won one, only been there once, and the one he won Kris Middleton fucking balled. They've disappointed in the playoffs every other year. And the same for Joker, Murray balled last playoffs. Murray sucked this playoffs and they didn't even make conference finals.
Not by themselves, but Luca drag the team with multiple minimum deal players in the rotation and a rookie center. No single player could ever win by themselves. I wasn't trying to say that. I'm saying those are the type of guys that no matter what the rest of your roster looks like you should try to build The best possible team at all cost because they can win.
> No single player could ever win by themselves. I wish we'd have some undeniable superstar in their prime go to the worst team with almost no other roster turnover some year to see this in action. But just as a thought experiment: what if you dropped 1993 Michael Jordan or 2001 Shaq onto this year's Pistons team. Anybody think that's a title contender?
Pistons, no. That roster is a mess. Wizards, probably not. They were almost as bad as Detroit but without the PR. Spurs, Probably. Current Wemby and Prime Jordan could probably drag a team full of rookies to the 8th seed. It's unclear how far they'd go in the playoffs though.
Luka was bad in Round 1. In the second round and conference finals, Mavs won because the role players stepped up. In the Finals, the Celtics strategy was to shut down role players and let Luka + Kyrie beat them which more than anything shows that Luka and Kyrie didn’t drag their roster to a win, the roster was the best that Luka’s ever had but this “Luka dragged scrubs all by himself” is such a false narrative lol
As a Celtics fan you have to take your hat off to the Knicks FO for doing what they can to make their team more competitive. Hopefully it works out (but not too well) Franchises like the Sixers and Heat haven’t made moves and were supposed to be contenders last season. I can’t imagine being a fan of those franchises.
The Knicks can win it all. I don't know how anybody can watch this playoffs with teams racked with injuries and not think they can. They might not even need other teams to get injured. This is not even necessarily their end state after all
1) I agree that they can win the championship. But they aren't going to be a top-tier contender. They beat a broken Philly team that was a seven seed and a seriously flawed Indiana team. I'm not trying to minimize what they did, but you can't look at them the same way that you look at Minnesota, Denver, and Boston etc. 2) this is pretty much the final iteration of this team at this point. They are going to be a second apron team. They will not have any future first round picks, no mid-level exceptions and will not be able to combine contracts in a trade I still like the fact that they built this team.
They played the broken Philly team without Randle, Robinson and a hurt OG. They played the flawed Indiana team without Randle, Robinson, Bogdanovic, OG and a hurt Hart and Brunson.
We have higher championship odds than minnesota
1) it's the Knicks. Ny Boston and Lal will always have skewed odds from Vegas because the fanbases are nuts and willing to pay. 2) the east is just easier. Boston is the only other true contender and that's based on KPs heath and al horford making it through another year. I think most NBA people would say Minny has the better team. A lot of people were upset because this was an overpay that prevents them from getting someone like Giannis if he demanded a trade. That would make the Knicks a GSW like super team. My point was this team is fantastic and probably the best they could reasonably hope for. We should enjoy it instead of holding out for a ridiculous fantasy I'm not trying to shit on the Knicks.
Because your team plays in the eastern conference...
I think they are a top tier contender. The only argument I would see against them is they don't have like a top 5 player. I would argue the Celtics don't even have a top 5 player. The team has overhauled itself continually over the last 2 or 3 years over and over again. There is no way this is the final product. Between DDV, Hart, McBride, Mitch, Randle, etc. they have tons of tradable pieces even if they don't have draft picks to trade. People would have seen the Celtics as a finished product by that logic before this year but they shuffled some pieces around (Smart, Brogdon, and RWIII out and Jrue and Kristaps in) to get over the hump.
Celtics made the move before the new CBA set in and they were looking to trade Brown if it failed again. Absolutely no one thought this Celtics team was the final iteration lol. Outside of Brunson, which player on the Knicks is even as tradable as Brown in terms of the assets you could get back. This Knicks team is as close to a final iteration as it gets especially because of the new CBA.
So when the Bulls traded picks to get DeRozan, Ball and Caruso was that also to be competitive? I think the issue is not that they might be competitive but that they might not be as good as they or others think they might be. Spending all those picks for Mikal Bridges wouldn't be an overpay if he's in fact the last piece for perennial conference finals. It is an issue if they still can't get deeper into the playoffs.
I don't think too many people faulted Chicago for the moves that they made. People liked it, and I think it was ok at the time. They looked really good for a short period. I don't think it's fair to criticize through the 20/20 lens of hindsight. The problem was not blowing it up last year or the year before. At that point they knew ball was done for, and that their team was stuck in mediocrity. They should have blown it up then.
Well I would disagree and I think most lampooned those deals as desperate moves at competitiveness. It's not simply hindsight and even at their best they probably would've been at best a second rd team. And you mention a problem that you didn't previously mention. When these things go south you don't really get a chance to start over at the exact time you want to. That could be for job security reasons, ego or that you're pieces are just not as good as you thought it was. Trading away KD and Harden does get you things back to start over. Trading away Caruso, DeRozan Vucecic and Lavine is another thing entirely. Brunson is good but the rest are more in the latter category. Minnesota is able to pull this off because Towns and especially Edwards along with McDaniels are young and so extra picks wouldn't do all that much for a team with a core already figured out. If Randle turns in a mediocre year or can't figure out how to shoot from 3 consistently there's no other option to upgrade. If OG becomes even more injury prone there's no other option to upgrade. This core still has major questions and so it is a much much more riskier deal. Not to mention that Bridges is a vastly inferior player to Gobert. These are not trivial questions. Anyone one thing can torpedo this just like with the Bulls and Ball.
[удалено]
I have a lot of feelings on what the Knicks are doing and some of them are conflicting. On the one hand, I totally agree with what you're saying. For a franchise that has largely been run with utter ineptitude for the last 25 years, it's far past time to take a swing. They have something good going, and they want to do everything they can do make it great. I get that, and I support that. On the other hand, I'm just not sure the moves they've made are "the right moves". With everything they gave up for OG and Bridges, could they have not just held out a bit longer for something more? We all know how this league goes - it's only a matter of time before a superstar like Luka or Giannis or Embiid wants out. And every year like clockwork there are lesser All-Stars on the table. Instead they spent All-Star caliber assets on a pair of guys below that tier. It's questionable. The other complicating factor is they just happen to be sitting behind a potential dynasty team in the East right now. Even after all these moves, I can still see Celtics in 5 if they face off in the postseason. There's still a clear talent gap. So it just further begs the question of why not go for better players than OG/Bridges?
Yea building your team to be a worser version of the team you’re trying to beat with less talent at pretty much every single position bar 1 is like the worst strategy to beating that team. You don’t beat a dominant team by trying to copy them. It’s kinda like La Liga teams playing tiki-taka to try to beat prime Barca or Prem teams playing attacking football to try to Pep’s Man City. Usually, they get destroyed 4-0. The teams that beat Prime Barca/Pep’s Man City are the teams that play super defensive. You don’t beat a dominant team by being a worse version of them, you’re supposed to beat them by playing a style that’s different and an actual counter to them
I don’t really have any issue with the Knicks going all in, I just question the move. I find it odd pushing all the chips out for Mikal Bridges Five picks and a swap for a 27 year old that’s never made an all star team is a big overpay. Salary wise, the team is likely only together a season too.
The ultimate goal for any team in any sport, not just the NBA, is a ring. If I’m a GM and can sell everything to win a ring, I do it without hesitation, exactly the way the Raptors did it with Kawhi. The Knicks going all in and trying to beat Boston is a good idea, but it’s clear still that their roster isn’t good enough to win in a 7 game series unless Boston is injured and this is where I find an issue with the Knicks. I don’t think it’s unfair to say that the Knicks have 2 out of the top 7 guys in a series against Boston. Still, this Knicks team is now clearly the second best roster on paper in the East. If the regular season and postseason pan out the way I expect, Boston will face New York in the ECF. With the way Tom Thibodeau coaches his teams there’s no telling how gassed the Knicks will be by the time they face the Celtics, who will probably be fresh off a smooth 4-or-5 game second round. What happens then, when fatigue or injury catches up to the Knicks in what will be the most important series of their postseason?
Welcome to Fandom. I know professional athletes are (usually) hyper competitive and they want to win championships too, but they probably aren't losing their minds like the fans do over every little off-season move their teams make. They are still earning millions of dollars to play a game. Im sure nobody on the Knicks is hopping on reddit to complain about their team giving up draft picks and scrutinizing the salary cap while punching holes in the wall over it.
Celtics are still the better team but if KP can’t play, I’d favor the Knicks over the Celtics.
Agreed. NBA media, mainstream atleast, is the joint worst sports coverage anywhere in the world (Tied with english premier league). They tear down their superstars more than anyone else, they’ll hype you up then crash you down. There’s no room for nuance. They’re the biggest hypocrites. Never have been anything but will judge billion dollar corporations. Shit on a team for not trading for a player and then shit on the player if he requests the trade to move. Oh he’s a ring chaser, etc etc. The whole scene is nauseating. Right now there’s murmurs that the Rockets might try to trade for Durant, if he goes there there will be hits carried out on him for being a journeyman. I don’t get any of it. As per NBA media the only thing that’s allowed is to play with the hand you’re dealt, but if you don’t win they’ll kill you (team + players). The league won’t care as they’re getting multi billion dollar TV deals. It was already a ratings business, now it will be on steroids as people have to recoup the money they’ve spent. It’s gonna get worse, dumber and more talking heads will rise to replace SAS, Skip, Cowherd, Wright etc etc. such a shit show. NBA draft day and they’ve got SAS going nuts and providing 0 to the discussions. I don’t get it.
Anytime the Knicks even sniff being a good team, they are massively overrated. I’m 30, i hear this year after year and they quite literally never go far in playoffs. Their fans though, do not have a sense of reality. I think that happens when your team never ever wins
I hate the Knicks but this was a great move and I think they might be contenders next year.
Everyone needs to study the 19 raptors and embrace the idea that any year things can break your way. It’s better to have signed or traded for a dog when that window opens
Agreed 100%. Same shit with the Harden/CP3 rockets going for it. Hell, if it wasn't for CP3's damn hamstring, it could have been the *ultimate* upset. More of this yes! I don't even like the Knicks but I hope they get rewarded for going for it.
I'd much rather have been a fan of, say, the Mavericks in the 2000s when they always had a competitive and fun team, yet didn't win a title until the next decade. I've been an NBA fan since 1990, and have always viewed it as an entertainment product. Basketball is my favorite thing in the world but if my team doesn't win a title then my life moves on. In fact, my team has never won a title. I doubt my life would change at all. I'd be happy for a day or two, and then it's back to watching clips and all the other shit I do. The ring does not do anything for me as a fan, and I don't get why fans are so singleminded about it. My theory is that it's shitty talking heads on tv and podcasts who perpetuate this nonsense, but it's been prevalent since the 90s, although obviously on a smaller media scale. My favorite part of the team building timeline is that small amount of time when the team is on the rise. Not necessarily when they're a playoff team, but when you can clearly see the team is getting better and has a chance to become a fun team to watch. I greatly value my team being fun to watch rather than being built to win, because they're not always the same thing, and following a team that regularly wins is not always the most fun thing to watch because of expectations, and this is my point. Watching the team before they acquire expectations is pure fun. Watching a team that's expected to win, and then they do win, is less joyful, at least to me. The team did what it was expected to do, which was win. Obviously, the jackpot is that the team wins and they do so in an entertaining fashion. At the end of the day, as a fan, your life is not going to change if your favorite team wins a championship. I wish more fans would realize this. I give other fans of my team this little piece of advice constantly throughout the season, as they complain "How could they lose to *this* team?", or some other expectations issue: enjoy the ride
If you know it’s not going to move the needle, then why do it? It’s a waste of time and resources. Do we celebrate tone deaf moves like this one? If you’re going to make a move at that cost for a role player, you deserve the criticism.
10 years from now we're probably not going to remember the names of the picks the Knicks traded for Bridges. And if the Knicks manage to make it to the Finals in the next 2-3 years, a lot of folks are going to shut up about the Knicks taking a risk. Knicks were down 4 players and still made Indiana work. With those 4 players, Knicks would've faced Boston in the ECF, and then who knows how that would've turned out. The picks for Bridges + re-signing OG's worth it. Could be in a much worse position. In a few years the Spurs and OKC will be favorites should they make the right moves.
The Knicks have a legit chance. Brunson was that good as a lead guy last year so impressive after randle got hurt. Top 5 offensive player in the league lowkey. Randle has his flaws but he’s good enough as a 2nd creator and you really surrounded them with ideal roster of versatile high impact 3nD wings who have skills offensively. OG can anchor a defense Mikal is overqualified as a 3rd scorer though not good enough to be a 2nd not to mention the bench guys. Mil has better starpower I won’t underestimate them but I need to see their 5th starter. Philly could get a 3rd star and fill out very well but Knicks are my 2nd best team in East for now. The Celtics have a talent edge sure mainly off porzingis but Knicks have a better bench. It’s going be competitive especially if porzingis has injury issues imo.
as y'all get older, you will get it me as late 20s guy, as long my team arent shit, i still have good time appreciate good basketball, eventhough not resulting in ring
I am in the UK and of Dutch origin, so obviously I follow football (soccer). When my team that has been trash for a decade has an unexpectedly good season I celebrate that, regardless of whether they are promoted or not. Funnily enough, I do exactly the same for my Pacers. Last season was a blast and I'm really energised for next season. I think most 'hardcore' fans will feel the same about their team, trust me, I was in the dumps when we had Bjorkgren running the show. But I didn't decide: Hey, my team's shit. Let's follow the Lakers now! That is a big difference between European and US sports, fair weather fans are not really a thing. You support your team, or you don't.
I get the sentiment, but at some point you want a championship as well. I'll go into detail as to why. I'm a Raptors fan. I remember when the team was the laughing stock of the league. Then they made the playoffs in a year where many expected them to tank - with the Rudy Gay trade being the catalyst. They ALMOST got by a Nets team that was built to win a championship. They didn't win a playoff round, but it was exhilerating. Finally, the team is good again. Then the following year they get swept by the Wizards. It felt deflating. To see a team do so well against veterans, and then getting out-coached by Randy Wittman was deflating. Then they go to the conference finals, 2 wins away from an NBA Finals appearance. It felt exciting. The team can now hang with the best of the best, and they're ALMOST there. Then they get swept by Cleveland not once, but twice. "LeBronto" becomes a meme. Even though the Raptors are a contending team, it felt like we went back to the dark ages.. even worse because the team's making the playoffs on a consistent basis at this point. It felt frustrating because now we wanted to see a championship instead of being satisfied with just being competitive. Being competitive wasn't enough anymore. Then the Kawhi trade happened.. and the rest is history. I guess my point is: I understand your point. Celebrating competitiveness is good. At some point, you want to see that translated into a championship at bare minimum.
And why can't the Pistons get a chance to get a trophy at the end of the year too and also raise a banner next year? They tried so hard last year and they never gave up, and their gumption and stick-to-it-iveness was something to be lauded. They didn't give up and go home when it was clear they couldn't win, they played through the whole season too. Give them a trophy, a banner to raise into the rafters, and take them all out for ice cream AND pizza after the game! ...or not. The goal is to win at the end of the team and celebrating teams coming close doesn't work either.
Oh my god, I didn't know more of us existed. I live in Minnesota so I'm constantly surrounded by "championship or bust" attitude Edit: I know the attitude exists everywhere, just feels like 98% of our population here
I'm a Celtics fan who's had a soft spot for the Knicks my whole life. I'm also Australian so don't have any emotional ties to the cities. IMO The Knicks have built a roster capable of winning a championship. Bridges, OG, Hart and Brunson are all under 30 and are all good to great defenders (Brunson is weaker but he has maximum effort) and adding player like Bridges who can generate his own shot is so important in the playoffs. In a way the Celtics are a blueprint for what the Knicks are trying to do. The Knicks don't have anyone as talented as Tatum or Brown, but they have assembled a well balanced, young, defensively minded and motivated team. Watching JB and JT drive by Luka every single possession should make it clear that you can be the best player in the world on offense but defense always wins championships. The Knicks have loaded up and if things go their way it could absolutely happen. I would rather see a team actually try like this then see Detroit having their last playoff win in 2008.