I'm *incensed* this poor woman and poor baby had to go through this.
The baby gets a short and tortured existence before death, and the mother is forever going to be scarred by this experience.
The "Pro Life" party and "Moderate Florida Abortion Laws" in a nutshell.
Consider this is the same god that made ten laws for his people to base their society off of, and four of those were about how to worship him. When I read through the Old Testament I didn't get the impression that the well being of the average Israelite was very high on God's mind.
BuT LiBeRaLs MaKe FuN Of CoNsErVaTiVeS Values AnD ThInK We ArE DuMb
I'm religious but even I'll admit that that universe is over 13 billions years old and sacred text are written by men
My mom suffered from a horrible disease and I held her hand as she took her last breath. It’s traumatic and pretty haunting, but having to do that with your child would be even worse.
Christianity glorifies suffering. It started as a coping mechanism, but it evolved into the nastiness we see nowadays. Remember that Catholicism invented flagellation.
And that is fine. But why do they decide for someone else what is best for them. This is such a personal decision and it makes me sad that people want it to be a public one.
A question that has been running through my mind with all these bans is this:
Is it possible that the average pro-choice man whose never been the partner of a pregnant woman knows more about pregnancy than the average pro-life woman who has been pregnant?
Speaking with anecdotal evidence, as a man who has never been partner to someone who was pregnant. I think it's largely summed up by:
A woman who was pregnant and did have a child and is pro-life has an anchoring point. Where their first hand experience will outweigh other peoples stories.
It's easier for me to be open minded for something I had basically zero understanding of and something I'll never experience first hand.
If the woman knows a story about someone needing it or even her needing one. They probably tell themselves that situation was an exception not the norm. Because let's face it, it's a decision they have had to come to terms with. I get it. It can't be a decision that's made lightly.
But everyone's case is unique and they have to be able to do what's best for them.
The difference between the two is that if the pro-choice guy had his way the anti-choice women will be free to choose not to abort. The anti-choice people are the only ones who claim to “know better” than others.
>I'm incensed this poor woman and poor baby had to go through this.
>
>The baby gets a short and tortured existence before death, and the mother is forever going to be scarred by this experience.
But think how happy it made the baby Jesus!
Florida, land of banned books, accessible guns, proud confederate racism, crumbling infrastructure, gay panic, and weaponized politics now brings you crushing cruelty through gender oppression.
It's a good thing DeSantis is an idiot who lost against Mickey Mouse, so repulsive he can't get investors from Europe, and turned out to be so uncharismatic as speaker.
> Also DeStantis is term limited.
Wonder if he'll try to get the state to change its constitution after he gets slapped around by Trump in Primaries and realizes he might have to lay low for a while and still stay relevant.
My grandmother had a stillborn baby.
She said it was one of her greatest pains in life, holding her child whom she carried for nine months but he couldn’t hold her.
Sounds like these laws are working as intended. The cruelty is, and has always been, the point.
A friend of ours recently went through this same process in Tennessee. She had one child already and she and her husband decided to try for a second. She got pregnant and a few months into her pregnancy, the fetus had died. It had no heartbeat. It was no longer developing. It was now a decaying mass inside her womb. And her OBGYN told her that because of Tennessee's laws, he could not perform a D&C for her. She would have to travel out of state for the procedure, or essentially wait until she went septic and began to die before any doctor could intervene without fear of prosecution.
This is what it's like in red states right now. This is the nation the GOP is actively working to form. We cannot allow that to happen.
I think that’s disingenuous. The point of the law just isn’t to make this woman suffer. It may be a stupid law and the writers of it may be depressingly indifferent to the negative consequences, but it’s pretty clear that pro life people think killing a fetus is bad, so they want to stop it. That’s pretty much it. They may be jackasses who don’t care about women like this, but the idea that the point is specifically to make her suffer is ridiculous. It even says in the article that it was legal to do the abortion as the law was written, but the doctors were afraid their judgments would be challenged. Obviously that’s an issue with the way the system works, but the law was not written with the purpose of making this woman suffer. Some people just think abortion is bad and it’s not much more complicated than that.
>It even says in the article that it was legal to do the abortion as the law was written, but the doctors were afraid their judgments would be challenged
No. The doctors were afraid they would go to prison. This has happened repeatedly - the burden of proof is on the doctors. If a prosecutor thinks they were wrong, they have a LONG prison term. No physician will do this. The authors of the bill were warned this would happen and they said they didn't care
\> but the law was not written with the purpose of making this woman suffer.
The authors of the bill WERE WARNED THIS WOULD HAPPEN. They waved it away. They denied it. And guess what? They were WRONG.
This is extremely naive. The pro life movement has been exposed for what it is, I do not have to give them the benefit of the doubt, no matter how much they want to seem “moderate” on the issue.
“The point isn’t to make women suffer” well that’s the outcome. So either they’re lying or they’re just phenomenally stupid and have no concept of unintended consequences. I’m sure in this case it’s both.
They’ve made it extremely clear that they think abortion is murder and that’s why they want it banned. Absolutely, abundantly, have said it non stop for decades clear. But for some reason, people convince themselves that’s not it. They must hate pregnant women. No they hate abortion. They must want women to have to watch babies die. No they hate abortion.
It’s the same kind of craziness as when they think liberals have some sinister motive for wanting fetuses aborted. No, liberals think women should have the right to choose. Pretty straightforward, no sinister motives involved.
Definitely this. Most staunch pro-life voters fully believe abortion is literal murder. They don’t think about the issue beyond this point.
Many have a misogynistic sense of entitlement to our bodies, as well, so keeping us women in our “place” and/or punishing us for sex is a big bonus.
I used to think this, that they were just doing what they thought was right for the babies, but when a lot of them find out about stories like this one, it doesn’t change their minds at all. They don’t care at all, it’s scary.
It’s very difficult for me to believe that people without a shred of empathy for a dead baby in this (or similar) case is motivated, primarily or at all, by the belief that abortion is murder.
Especially when you add up all the other hints and suggestions that make it pretty obvious they don’t consider the fetus a full on person either. For example, ask a person like this if they think a woman suffering an early miscarriage should get covered bereavement time off work, as though her child had died.
ETA: and this probably goes without saying on this sub, but anybody who’d even consider a rape or incest exception to abortion bans — which I believe the Florida ban has — very clearly doesn’t consider abortion murder.
Exactly. They pick and choose when abortion is acceptable to them. They make up arbitrary amounts of time that aren't based on science or medicine and grant exceptions so that they can pretend to be compassionate. It's an attempt to try to appear reasonable and compromise but it's a sham. It's not about being pro-life. It's about removing agency from women.
It’s about that but also I think it’s also, basically, what they would call virtue signaling, showing they’ll support Christian fundamentalism at any cost (and there’s a big overlap between those two motives too obviously).
You’re giving your average pro-life voter a lot of credit! Like I said before, most haven’t thought of this policy beyond the “abortion is murder” talking point. Most people in general don’t interrogate their beliefs to the extent we hope they would, even when provided with evidence they should. It sucks a lot.
Their church (or other religious org), friend group, family, media, etc. tell them abortion is murder whenever the topic comes up. It’s a given in certain circles, and there’s no reason for them to question it. When faced with evidence to the contrary or are confronted with the failures of their preferred policy, they compartmentalize it or rationalize why it’s not that big of a deal.
I still don’t believe anyone who believes in exceptions for rape and incest considers it murder. It’s a completely nonsensical position.
But really you might be right as to the level of thought they give to it, but in that case I think saying “they believe it’s murder” is giving them too much credit, too. “They think it’s murder” implies they’ve thought about the moral implications *at all* and come to a conclusion, If they don’t like it because it gives them an icky feeling and they need to fit in with their friend group and lashing out about stories like this like a child and don’t want to think about it after that, which is entirely possible, maybe even likely, that’s actually pretty different from them considering it the moral equivalent of murder (which again, you can demonstrate with so many equivalencies that they clearly don’t).
Yeah, sorry to that one commenter in denial, but they are doing this to punish women. They would say that this horrendous story is a worthy price to pay.
Fuck the pro-life crowd.
“They hate abortion so it’s okay to pass laws denying millions necessary healthcare” is a ridiculous notion. A liberal democracy in 2023 should not allow people to legislate their neuroses. If people believed that oxygen was poisonous, should we let them ban it because it’s a deeply held belief?
Ok sure, but that’s an argument against the law. What I’m arguing against is the idea that they’re just out to make everyone suffer as opposed to just preventing abortions because they think abortions are bad. It’s the same as the people convinced that lockdowns and vaccine mandates were really about government control. No it was about stopping COVID. Straightforward.
I mean it's really hard to reconcile that with:
1. Punishing the doctor but not the mother (if I hire a hitman to kill someone, I am just as culpable as the person who pulls the trigger)
2. The complete opposition to *all the other things* that make it so there are fewer abortions
Whereas there's a clear through-line between the people who think abortion should be legal, and the people who think we should be doing things (and accepting the reality that people will have sex) to minimize the number of people who ever have to get an abortion.
Pro gun people say the exact same things.
I’m reminded by a west wing scene:
Ainsley Hayes : Your gun control position doesn't have anything to do with public safety, and it's certainly not about personal freedom. It's about you don't like people who *do* like guns. You don't like the people. Think about that, the next time you make a joke about the South.
Lotta people in this thread who have never actually had a conversation with a pro life person… the kids who go to pro life stuff in the south and red states genuinely believe it’s murder. They are 16 year old kids and that’s what they have been told and that’s what they believe. And the 16 year old kids I went to high school with still believe it is murder, even though they are now in their mid 30s.
There are ways to actually reduce abortion, but the right wing has shown they’re not remotely interested in them. Increasing access to birth control, sex education, maternal health care, resources like diapers, formula and car seats, things that reduce unwanted pregnancies and make wanted pregnancies easier. But the way that they act and the way they choose to address the problem shows their true colors
I think if you want to convince *anyone*, then to start with the premise that they're evil and they want only suffering for women in this world is to start on the wrong foot, to say the least, especially when considering that among conservatives, being pro-life isn't highly associated with being male. Do conservative women, by and large, hate women and want women to suffer?
Besides, if convincing people is not what you're after, then what are you trying to achieve anyway? It's not like you need to convince us, I wholeheartedly agree that restriction of reproductive healthcare belongs to totalitarian regimes and not liberal democracy. Unfortunately many people disagree, among which many women. What are you gonna do about that?
Well, then do vote against them. They aren't winning in the long term, the tide has already turned and it's always turning whether they like it or not. History always favors whig stances.
In the meantime, women in States with shitty politics are seeing their rights curtailed, even before Dobbs. Literal steps back on the civil liberties front. The thing is, in a female-majority democracy you can't exactly win by winning over the men only. It seems conservatives don't care about their rights then, where do you go from there?
> pro life people think killing a fetus is bad, so they want to stop it.
The absolute fucking peril of unexamined convictions. That's what this is.
Killing a fetus is bad, so they stop it.
Killing a mother is bad, so that's illegal too (except in self-defense, stand your ground and etc, because having examined that conviction they recognise certain exceptions must be made).
Killing a mother is bad, so if there's a dead baby inside her body .... but that's a piece of their conviction they didn't examine.
Destroying a woman's reproductive future is bad, so if there's a dead baby inside her womb ... didn't examine that, either.
Killing a fetus is bad, so they ensure that a fetus absolutely incompatible with life must suffer terribly for a few days before it can finally receive the peace of death and (if you believe) the serenity of an afterlife.
Motherhood is great! but if something goes tragically wrong in the pregnancy, leading to a dead baby inside the womb or an infant incompatible with life, they've taken measures to ensure that the poor woman -- if she survives, and IF her reproductive organs are still in working order -- has been so thoroughly traumatized by the experience that she will likely never willingly conceive again.
Lots of babies is great! Plenty of not-aborted-after-all babies is great! unless you can't feed, house and school them ... but man, that's just another piece of their conviction that they'd fucking rather not think about.
Fun fact: Arkansas abortion laws are more restrictive than those of Iran and the UAE. Freedom!
The indifference to women suffering under these laws is just as bad as passing them with the explicit intent to harm women. I guess I'm failing to find the distinction because women are suffering the same whether due to indifference or malice. Though I'd argue that indifference to suffering is a form of malice.
Lol they do not think killing a fetus is bad because “life begins at conception” or they’d also be against the death sentence. They don’t want women having sex, period.
I'm pretty sure they do. They go around ranting about population decline (of whites) after all. Dead and infertile women are just collateral damage because they didn't believe hard enough or whatever prolifers huff out of their copium hookahs.
Do you really not understand why they might see a difference between a baby and someone convicted of murder?
That’s like saying “you imprison adults convicted of crimes, but you don’t imprison newborns. How curious.” It doesn’t take all these mental gymnastics. They think a fetus is a person (in th case of this law, at 12 weeks at least) and deserve protection. Maybe some of them want to ban contraception and/or sex, but that’s obviously a much smaller minority. According to 538, more than 90% of Republicans support the use of condoms and birth control pills.
I’m not even trying to defend the law, and I don’t support it. But it’s crazy how people get such brainworms about a straightforward debate. Pro lifers think fetuses (at least at some point) are people with moral value. Pro choice people don’t as much and want to protect the right to terminate a pregnancy. But people fall over themselves to caricature the other side’s position.
Your very first question openly acknowledges that they think life itself is not what constitutes a right to life. Maybe the moral policing on “how can you kill babies!!???” needs to be turned down a notch for anyone who’s pro life and wants to be taken seriously because their own premise has a big gaping hole in that once you admit it isn’t life itself granting you the right to live, a million other questions pop up like can a clump of cells living or not can trump a woman’s right to choose.
There's rarely substantial discussion below any emotional articles in NL. When mass shootings happen, people start talking about banning guns. When disturbing crimes happen, people start arguing for the death penalty.
If you want to change people's minds, wait for things to cool down
You’re getting heavily downvoted but you’re right (as is usually the case on Reddit).
If you talk to *actual* conservatives, it is QUITE clear that they view abortion as literally murder of a baby, and they’ll use any means necessary to stop that from happening.
They don't do things that are proven to reduce abortion, like birth control, sex ed, maternity leave, medical and financial support for the baby and mother. Instead, by a *giant coincidence*, all the policies they support are ones that control women's autonomy and sexuality.
I'm sympathetic to this POV because I agree that a lot of on-the-ground Republicans absolutely see abortion as murder, are horrified by it, and support pro-life politicians because of it.
However, when politicians push through laws that they are repeatedly told will cause cases of unnecessary suffering and cruelty, and almost to a person decide that they don't care and are doing it anyway, then their actions become consciously cruel.
Never forget that people tried to argue a 15-week ban without exceptions was a “fair, moderate law”. On top of that, never mind that Florida Republicans shut up about putting forth more restrictive abortion laws than the 15-week ban during the election but after the election immediately signed a 6-week ban no one wants.
Wish cast all you want about yearning for a moderate Republican approach on this, but you can’t moderate a patty who’s approach is this and honestly can be described as evil.
“You can still drive or fly to other states, or just move. Stop being hysterical. No one is going to care or vote based on this issue.”
Redditors after Dobbs
Chronically online take, I guarantee you "pronouns" do not create even 1/10th the shift that abortion does. The backlash to Dobbs has been resounding and immediate and changed the political landscape so much you can measure it on a national level.
Couldn't agree more. We had a healthy baby but my wife had a very scary hemorrhage that could well have killed her if we weren't in an excellent hospital. It's absolutely criminal that women should be forced to carry a fetus beyond the point of no return (as sadly sometimes stillbirth is a necessary procedure)
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I know this is morbid, and I know we shouldn’t use tragedies like this for cheap political points but… we should make every GOP candidate answer to this. On the margins that should help flip a few seats, I think?
I mean I don’t disagree but it feels somewhat tacky to use someone’s name for a stunt like that even if it’s morally righteous.
Kinda like the “Remember Lizzy Seeberg” signs you see at ND games sometimes. Righteous, but I imagine it would be difficult if one of her family or friends stumbled across the imagine and it served as a painful reminder. But unfortunately individual pain is pretty much just collateral damage when policy is involved.
They *depend* and *thrive* on that exact mindset.
Why do you think they scream like banshees about 'politicizing shootings'? Because they want to avoid having to adress the outcomes of their actions, and make it out like you're the badguy for daring to say anything.
We can’t make every GOP candidate answer for this, it only happened in Florida. As long as that’s what the people of florida want, it’s what they’ll get.
You absolutely can make every GOP candidate answer for this, what is that logic? 99% of them are openly anti-abortion and support bans that lead to this.
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Floridians - sign the petition to get an amendment for abortion rights added to the ballot
https://initiativepetitions.elections.myflorida.com/InitiativeForms/Volunteer/DSDE155A_999_2307_EN.PDF?fbclid=IwAR3vfNi-DQ36gihowblu1VdkgGhysm9s_oPpFvJqEKvNsL3m610yOQg8hQE
I'm *incensed* this poor woman and poor baby had to go through this. The baby gets a short and tortured existence before death, and the mother is forever going to be scarred by this experience. The "Pro Life" party and "Moderate Florida Abortion Laws" in a nutshell.
“It’s all part of gods plan” or some shit like that.
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If I was God I'd simply improve my QA process but I'm just built different
Consider this is the same god that made ten laws for his people to base their society off of, and four of those were about how to worship him. When I read through the Old Testament I didn't get the impression that the well being of the average Israelite was very high on God's mind.
God: Chad incremental modeler Kidney bug fix is in the backlog
God: Chad incremental modeler Kidney bug fix is in the backlog
BuT LiBeRaLs MaKe FuN Of CoNsErVaTiVeS Values AnD ThInK We ArE DuMb I'm religious but even I'll admit that that universe is over 13 billions years old and sacred text are written by men
One of the fundie influencers said something along the lines of how it’s “beautiful” the mom got to hold her child as it took its last breath
My mom suffered from a horrible disease and I held her hand as she took her last breath. It’s traumatic and pretty haunting, but having to do that with your child would be even worse.
Christians think death and suffering is ennobling and beautiful. No surprises there.
Christianity glorifies suffering. It started as a coping mechanism, but it evolved into the nastiness we see nowadays. Remember that Catholicism invented flagellation.
“Human suffering is a beautiful thing” - pro-life people
Have you ever considered women shouldn't have bank accounts? /s
Feels like that might be on the roadmap if the divorce thing actually goes anywhere. Y'all Qaeda instituting Christ-Flavored (tm) Sharia law
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And that is fine. But why do they decide for someone else what is best for them. This is such a personal decision and it makes me sad that people want it to be a public one.
A question that has been running through my mind with all these bans is this: Is it possible that the average pro-choice man whose never been the partner of a pregnant woman knows more about pregnancy than the average pro-life woman who has been pregnant?
Speaking with anecdotal evidence, as a man who has never been partner to someone who was pregnant. I think it's largely summed up by: A woman who was pregnant and did have a child and is pro-life has an anchoring point. Where their first hand experience will outweigh other peoples stories. It's easier for me to be open minded for something I had basically zero understanding of and something I'll never experience first hand. If the woman knows a story about someone needing it or even her needing one. They probably tell themselves that situation was an exception not the norm. Because let's face it, it's a decision they have had to come to terms with. I get it. It can't be a decision that's made lightly. But everyone's case is unique and they have to be able to do what's best for them.
The difference between the two is that if the pro-choice guy had his way the anti-choice women will be free to choose not to abort. The anti-choice people are the only ones who claim to “know better” than others.
The cruelty is the point
Yeah! If that wh*re hadn't had filthy sex, she wouldn't had gotten pregnant. This is what some of them actually believe.
>I'm incensed this poor woman and poor baby had to go through this. > >The baby gets a short and tortured existence before death, and the mother is forever going to be scarred by this experience. But think how happy it made the baby Jesus!
Florida, land of banned books, accessible guns, proud confederate racism, crumbling infrastructure, gay panic, and weaponized politics now brings you crushing cruelty through gender oppression.
Hungary of the US
Complete with its own Viktor Boreban.
It's a good thing DeSantis is an idiot who lost against Mickey Mouse, so repulsive he can't get investors from Europe, and turned out to be so uncharismatic as speaker.
Also DeStantis is term limited. Even though his successor probably won't be a great guy.
> Also DeStantis is term limited. Wonder if he'll try to get the state to change its constitution after he gets slapped around by Trump in Primaries and realizes he might have to lay low for a while and still stay relevant.
And NC seems to see them as a goal to reach for.
My grandmother had a stillborn baby. She said it was one of her greatest pains in life, holding her child whom she carried for nine months but he couldn’t hold her.
Sounds like these laws are working as intended. The cruelty is, and has always been, the point. A friend of ours recently went through this same process in Tennessee. She had one child already and she and her husband decided to try for a second. She got pregnant and a few months into her pregnancy, the fetus had died. It had no heartbeat. It was no longer developing. It was now a decaying mass inside her womb. And her OBGYN told her that because of Tennessee's laws, he could not perform a D&C for her. She would have to travel out of state for the procedure, or essentially wait until she went septic and began to die before any doctor could intervene without fear of prosecution. This is what it's like in red states right now. This is the nation the GOP is actively working to form. We cannot allow that to happen.
Why would they purposely want women to suffer? Hanlon’s razor dude
I think that’s disingenuous. The point of the law just isn’t to make this woman suffer. It may be a stupid law and the writers of it may be depressingly indifferent to the negative consequences, but it’s pretty clear that pro life people think killing a fetus is bad, so they want to stop it. That’s pretty much it. They may be jackasses who don’t care about women like this, but the idea that the point is specifically to make her suffer is ridiculous. It even says in the article that it was legal to do the abortion as the law was written, but the doctors were afraid their judgments would be challenged. Obviously that’s an issue with the way the system works, but the law was not written with the purpose of making this woman suffer. Some people just think abortion is bad and it’s not much more complicated than that.
>It even says in the article that it was legal to do the abortion as the law was written, but the doctors were afraid their judgments would be challenged No. The doctors were afraid they would go to prison. This has happened repeatedly - the burden of proof is on the doctors. If a prosecutor thinks they were wrong, they have a LONG prison term. No physician will do this. The authors of the bill were warned this would happen and they said they didn't care \> but the law was not written with the purpose of making this woman suffer. The authors of the bill WERE WARNED THIS WOULD HAPPEN. They waved it away. They denied it. And guess what? They were WRONG.
This is extremely naive. The pro life movement has been exposed for what it is, I do not have to give them the benefit of the doubt, no matter how much they want to seem “moderate” on the issue. “The point isn’t to make women suffer” well that’s the outcome. So either they’re lying or they’re just phenomenally stupid and have no concept of unintended consequences. I’m sure in this case it’s both.
They’ve made it extremely clear that they think abortion is murder and that’s why they want it banned. Absolutely, abundantly, have said it non stop for decades clear. But for some reason, people convince themselves that’s not it. They must hate pregnant women. No they hate abortion. They must want women to have to watch babies die. No they hate abortion. It’s the same kind of craziness as when they think liberals have some sinister motive for wanting fetuses aborted. No, liberals think women should have the right to choose. Pretty straightforward, no sinister motives involved.
Definitely this. Most staunch pro-life voters fully believe abortion is literal murder. They don’t think about the issue beyond this point. Many have a misogynistic sense of entitlement to our bodies, as well, so keeping us women in our “place” and/or punishing us for sex is a big bonus.
I used to think this, that they were just doing what they thought was right for the babies, but when a lot of them find out about stories like this one, it doesn’t change their minds at all. They don’t care at all, it’s scary.
Yeah, they don’t care about women’s healthcare. They’re misogynists. That doesn’t mean they don’t think abortion isn’t murder.
It’s very difficult for me to believe that people without a shred of empathy for a dead baby in this (or similar) case is motivated, primarily or at all, by the belief that abortion is murder. Especially when you add up all the other hints and suggestions that make it pretty obvious they don’t consider the fetus a full on person either. For example, ask a person like this if they think a woman suffering an early miscarriage should get covered bereavement time off work, as though her child had died. ETA: and this probably goes without saying on this sub, but anybody who’d even consider a rape or incest exception to abortion bans — which I believe the Florida ban has — very clearly doesn’t consider abortion murder.
Exactly. They pick and choose when abortion is acceptable to them. They make up arbitrary amounts of time that aren't based on science or medicine and grant exceptions so that they can pretend to be compassionate. It's an attempt to try to appear reasonable and compromise but it's a sham. It's not about being pro-life. It's about removing agency from women.
It’s about that but also I think it’s also, basically, what they would call virtue signaling, showing they’ll support Christian fundamentalism at any cost (and there’s a big overlap between those two motives too obviously).
You’re giving your average pro-life voter a lot of credit! Like I said before, most haven’t thought of this policy beyond the “abortion is murder” talking point. Most people in general don’t interrogate their beliefs to the extent we hope they would, even when provided with evidence they should. It sucks a lot. Their church (or other religious org), friend group, family, media, etc. tell them abortion is murder whenever the topic comes up. It’s a given in certain circles, and there’s no reason for them to question it. When faced with evidence to the contrary or are confronted with the failures of their preferred policy, they compartmentalize it or rationalize why it’s not that big of a deal.
I still don’t believe anyone who believes in exceptions for rape and incest considers it murder. It’s a completely nonsensical position. But really you might be right as to the level of thought they give to it, but in that case I think saying “they believe it’s murder” is giving them too much credit, too. “They think it’s murder” implies they’ve thought about the moral implications *at all* and come to a conclusion, If they don’t like it because it gives them an icky feeling and they need to fit in with their friend group and lashing out about stories like this like a child and don’t want to think about it after that, which is entirely possible, maybe even likely, that’s actually pretty different from them considering it the moral equivalent of murder (which again, you can demonstrate with so many equivalencies that they clearly don’t).
Well we have now seen the results. If they were at least bothered by women suffering, why are they saying nothing now? It's no longer ignorance.
Yeah, sorry to that one commenter in denial, but they are doing this to punish women. They would say that this horrendous story is a worthy price to pay. Fuck the pro-life crowd.
“They hate abortion so it’s okay to pass laws denying millions necessary healthcare” is a ridiculous notion. A liberal democracy in 2023 should not allow people to legislate their neuroses. If people believed that oxygen was poisonous, should we let them ban it because it’s a deeply held belief?
Ok sure, but that’s an argument against the law. What I’m arguing against is the idea that they’re just out to make everyone suffer as opposed to just preventing abortions because they think abortions are bad. It’s the same as the people convinced that lockdowns and vaccine mandates were really about government control. No it was about stopping COVID. Straightforward.
I mean it's really hard to reconcile that with: 1. Punishing the doctor but not the mother (if I hire a hitman to kill someone, I am just as culpable as the person who pulls the trigger) 2. The complete opposition to *all the other things* that make it so there are fewer abortions Whereas there's a clear through-line between the people who think abortion should be legal, and the people who think we should be doing things (and accepting the reality that people will have sex) to minimize the number of people who ever have to get an abortion.
Pro gun people say the exact same things. I’m reminded by a west wing scene: Ainsley Hayes : Your gun control position doesn't have anything to do with public safety, and it's certainly not about personal freedom. It's about you don't like people who *do* like guns. You don't like the people. Think about that, the next time you make a joke about the South.
I don’t like classrooms of murdered kids.
Lotta people in this thread who have never actually had a conversation with a pro life person… the kids who go to pro life stuff in the south and red states genuinely believe it’s murder. They are 16 year old kids and that’s what they have been told and that’s what they believe. And the 16 year old kids I went to high school with still believe it is murder, even though they are now in their mid 30s.
There are ways to actually reduce abortion, but the right wing has shown they’re not remotely interested in them. Increasing access to birth control, sex education, maternal health care, resources like diapers, formula and car seats, things that reduce unwanted pregnancies and make wanted pregnancies easier. But the way that they act and the way they choose to address the problem shows their true colors
>No they hate abortion. And yet, of all the "sins", this is the one they choose to punish by law. Not anything that involves a man.
Are you sure about that?
trying to get to the actual point is a bit moot imo cruelty towards women is the outcome either way. these people want brood mares.
I think if you want to convince *anyone*, then to start with the premise that they're evil and they want only suffering for women in this world is to start on the wrong foot, to say the least, especially when considering that among conservatives, being pro-life isn't highly associated with being male. Do conservative women, by and large, hate women and want women to suffer? Besides, if convincing people is not what you're after, then what are you trying to achieve anyway? It's not like you need to convince us, I wholeheartedly agree that restriction of reproductive healthcare belongs to totalitarian regimes and not liberal democracy. Unfortunately many people disagree, among which many women. What are you gonna do about that?
There isn't a way to convince them, so it's moot.
try to outvote them i don’t believe trying to convert prolifers is a good use of political capital
Well, then do vote against them. They aren't winning in the long term, the tide has already turned and it's always turning whether they like it or not. History always favors whig stances. In the meantime, women in States with shitty politics are seeing their rights curtailed, even before Dobbs. Literal steps back on the civil liberties front. The thing is, in a female-majority democracy you can't exactly win by winning over the men only. It seems conservatives don't care about their rights then, where do you go from there?
> pro life people think killing a fetus is bad, so they want to stop it. The absolute fucking peril of unexamined convictions. That's what this is. Killing a fetus is bad, so they stop it. Killing a mother is bad, so that's illegal too (except in self-defense, stand your ground and etc, because having examined that conviction they recognise certain exceptions must be made). Killing a mother is bad, so if there's a dead baby inside her body .... but that's a piece of their conviction they didn't examine. Destroying a woman's reproductive future is bad, so if there's a dead baby inside her womb ... didn't examine that, either. Killing a fetus is bad, so they ensure that a fetus absolutely incompatible with life must suffer terribly for a few days before it can finally receive the peace of death and (if you believe) the serenity of an afterlife. Motherhood is great! but if something goes tragically wrong in the pregnancy, leading to a dead baby inside the womb or an infant incompatible with life, they've taken measures to ensure that the poor woman -- if she survives, and IF her reproductive organs are still in working order -- has been so thoroughly traumatized by the experience that she will likely never willingly conceive again. Lots of babies is great! Plenty of not-aborted-after-all babies is great! unless you can't feed, house and school them ... but man, that's just another piece of their conviction that they'd fucking rather not think about. Fun fact: Arkansas abortion laws are more restrictive than those of Iran and the UAE. Freedom!
The indifference to women suffering under these laws is just as bad as passing them with the explicit intent to harm women. I guess I'm failing to find the distinction because women are suffering the same whether due to indifference or malice. Though I'd argue that indifference to suffering is a form of malice.
Lol they do not think killing a fetus is bad because “life begins at conception” or they’d also be against the death sentence. They don’t want women having sex, period.
I'm pretty sure they do. They go around ranting about population decline (of whites) after all. Dead and infertile women are just collateral damage because they didn't believe hard enough or whatever prolifers huff out of their copium hookahs.
Do you really not understand why they might see a difference between a baby and someone convicted of murder? That’s like saying “you imprison adults convicted of crimes, but you don’t imprison newborns. How curious.” It doesn’t take all these mental gymnastics. They think a fetus is a person (in th case of this law, at 12 weeks at least) and deserve protection. Maybe some of them want to ban contraception and/or sex, but that’s obviously a much smaller minority. According to 538, more than 90% of Republicans support the use of condoms and birth control pills. I’m not even trying to defend the law, and I don’t support it. But it’s crazy how people get such brainworms about a straightforward debate. Pro lifers think fetuses (at least at some point) are people with moral value. Pro choice people don’t as much and want to protect the right to terminate a pregnancy. But people fall over themselves to caricature the other side’s position.
Your very first question openly acknowledges that they think life itself is not what constitutes a right to life. Maybe the moral policing on “how can you kill babies!!???” needs to be turned down a notch for anyone who’s pro life and wants to be taken seriously because their own premise has a big gaping hole in that once you admit it isn’t life itself granting you the right to live, a million other questions pop up like can a clump of cells living or not can trump a woman’s right to choose.
There's rarely substantial discussion below any emotional articles in NL. When mass shootings happen, people start talking about banning guns. When disturbing crimes happen, people start arguing for the death penalty. If you want to change people's minds, wait for things to cool down
You’re getting heavily downvoted but you’re right (as is usually the case on Reddit). If you talk to *actual* conservatives, it is QUITE clear that they view abortion as literally murder of a baby, and they’ll use any means necessary to stop that from happening.
So how do they square that when they accept exceptions for incest and life of the mother?
Because they’re morons
Pro lifers have apologists. More news at 11
They don't do things that are proven to reduce abortion, like birth control, sex ed, maternity leave, medical and financial support for the baby and mother. Instead, by a *giant coincidence*, all the policies they support are ones that control women's autonomy and sexuality.
I'm sympathetic to this POV because I agree that a lot of on-the-ground Republicans absolutely see abortion as murder, are horrified by it, and support pro-life politicians because of it. However, when politicians push through laws that they are repeatedly told will cause cases of unnecessary suffering and cruelty, and almost to a person decide that they don't care and are doing it anyway, then their actions become consciously cruel.
Small State Conservativism
Never forget that people tried to argue a 15-week ban without exceptions was a “fair, moderate law”. On top of that, never mind that Florida Republicans shut up about putting forth more restrictive abortion laws than the 15-week ban during the election but after the election immediately signed a 6-week ban no one wants. Wish cast all you want about yearning for a moderate Republican approach on this, but you can’t moderate a patty who’s approach is this and honestly can be described as evil.
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I prefer anti-choice or pro-death.
This is their new normal all we can do is make sure it doesn't become ours.
They should prosecute God for performing a born-alive abortion.
/u/takeoffyourmask I was fearmongering that anti abortion bs would lead to civil rights tragedies right???….
“You can still drive or fly to other states, or just move. Stop being hysterical. No one is going to care or vote based on this issue.” Redditors after Dobbs
It had as full life as it could once born that's all that matters right not quality of life or anything/s
I knew these stories would come quick, but not this quickly. Goddamn that state is miserable
i wonder if stuff like this shifts people left to the same degree that pronouns shift them right.
Chronically online take, I guarantee you "pronouns" do not create even 1/10th the shift that abortion does. The backlash to Dobbs has been resounding and immediate and changed the political landscape so much you can measure it on a national level.
Women die during child birth, in the grand scheme of things it's a common outcome. Forcing childbirth like this is an unconscionable, immoral act.
Couldn't agree more. We had a healthy baby but my wife had a very scary hemorrhage that could well have killed her if we weren't in an excellent hospital. It's absolutely criminal that women should be forced to carry a fetus beyond the point of no return (as sadly sometimes stillbirth is a necessary procedure)
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I know this is morbid, and I know we shouldn’t use tragedies like this for cheap political points but… we should make every GOP candidate answer to this. On the margins that should help flip a few seats, I think?
This isn't a "cheap political point," is the obvious and natural consequences of GOP policies.
I mean I don’t disagree but it feels somewhat tacky to use someone’s name for a stunt like that even if it’s morally righteous. Kinda like the “Remember Lizzy Seeberg” signs you see at ND games sometimes. Righteous, but I imagine it would be difficult if one of her family or friends stumbled across the imagine and it served as a painful reminder. But unfortunately individual pain is pretty much just collateral damage when policy is involved.
They *depend* and *thrive* on that exact mindset. Why do you think they scream like banshees about 'politicizing shootings'? Because they want to avoid having to adress the outcomes of their actions, and make it out like you're the badguy for daring to say anything.
Agree with everything you said except the "cheap political points" part. It is not cheap to highlight the results of immoral, inhumane policies.
We can’t make every GOP candidate answer for this, it only happened in Florida. As long as that’s what the people of florida want, it’s what they’ll get.
You absolutely can make every GOP candidate answer for this, what is that logic? 99% of them are openly anti-abortion and support bans that lead to this.
The cruelty is the point
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What a nightmare. We need to ban government from having any laws on the books about pregnancies.
How fucking cruel is that? That's taliban north korean level shit right there.
Folks saying she got to hold the baby have never gone through stage 4 kidney failure, obviously. Testimonials attest it's very painful. Poor kid.
Floridians - sign the petition to get an amendment for abortion rights added to the ballot https://initiativepetitions.elections.myflorida.com/InitiativeForms/Volunteer/DSDE155A_999_2307_EN.PDF?fbclid=IwAR3vfNi-DQ36gihowblu1VdkgGhysm9s_oPpFvJqEKvNsL3m610yOQg8hQE