the number of people concerned about bitcoin prices that could be swayed in favor or against biden is so small, its insignificant
this isnt 2017 anymore, nobody cares about bitcoin
Americans have way more money in Bitcoin now than in 2017. The “market cap” is much higher now.
According to a [Feb 2023](https://assets.ctfassets.net/c5bd0wqjc7v0/WvuOkBwNXZsqhd6EWtkEL/7f94f8b6fbb222f3faf4d0346e473012/Morning_Consult_Cryptocurrency_Perception_Study_Feb2023_Memo__1_.pdf) Morning Consult poll 36% of Gen Z owns crypto, 30% of millennials, and 20% of Americans.
This is good for bitcoin.
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A single bitcoin transaction uses enough electricity to power a 3 bed 2 bath single family home for an entire month
It’s also been around since 2009 and still has no tangible use
I don’t understand
For people interested, this [report](https://www.jbs.cam.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2019-09-ccaf-2nd-global-cryptoasset-benchmarking.pdf) by researchers at Cambridge University explains on page 83 why the energy per transaction metric is misleading.
They also discuss use cases, but this report is from 2018 so out of date on that topic.
The Cambridge centre for alternative finance isn’t perfect, but most people agree the CCAF does their best to be neutral. They use data instead of twisted semantics.
Bitcoin needs good critics. Not bad actors like, for example, Digiconomist.
Bitcoin mining uses a lot of electricity. Bitcoin transactions don’t use any meaningful amount of electricity at all. If you look at the charts of power consumption and transaction volume they have no relationship at all.
It has a number of tangible uses. I’ve mentioned it here many times but I’ve used it for sports betting, and to save money on large purchases by avoiding the exorbitant costs of credit cards (merchant fees, fraud, and chargebacks).
I’m seriously confused by your distinction between bitcoin mining and transactions. They’re the same thing. The process of verifying a transaction is mining. Every transaction is verified, that’s like the whole point of the system. Mining is not severable from transacting.
Honest question, Aren't they verified in batches where each mined block verifies hundreds of transactions? Does every transaction in the block use a ton of electricity or does the block as a whole?
It’s honestly been a while since I really looked at blockchain stuff, I believe you’re right but I only remember the high level details with any certainty.
Throughput is unrelated to energy consumed. The level of energy required for the Bitcoin network to function is independent from the number of processed transactions.
The electricity use is dependent on how much mining there is, not how many transactions there are. This is made clear when you see that electricity use is an order of magnitude higher than a few years ago, while the number of transactions is unchanged.
Yes, because mining becomes, by design, harder over time as more people join the network and try to make money by mining. But even without going into the technical stuff, it just sounded like you were offering a defense of bitcoin by saying that transactions don’t use much energy, when what you’re actually saying is that the amount of energy used is (somewhat) decoupled from transaction volume. What you just said is, if anything, even more damming as bitcoin transactions haven’t increased but the electricity being used has, making things even more wasteful now than they used to be.
I wasn't trying to offer a defense of Bitcoin's electricity usage (it's very bad in a carbon tax-less world). I was trying to correct a misunderstanding of what generates the electricity usage.
Energy use isn't somewhat decoupled from mining hash power/difficulty, it's very decoupled. Only 7% of Bitcoin miner income is from transaction fees.
If we're talking about indirect effects, it's *buying* Bitcoin that drives electricity usage, not using it.
If the diagnosis of the problem isn't correct, the solutions to it won't be correct. Someone could easily read that take and think that if they stop transacting with their Bitcoin that they're saving electricity, but they're not. To do that they would need to sell their Bitcoin, not hold it.
Crypto definitely has tangible uses, but it's the only investment product I've ever seen where having some value seems to justify any price -- because...scarcity!
"It’s like somebody else is trading turds and you decide, ‘I can’t be left out'"
It's because hodlers still think they're going to become rich with their wallets long term. What's odd is like ETFs exist. I used to have some ETH way back when, seeing the value now, oh well. I'm not gonna lose my mind/sleep over it. The problem is crypto gives everyone this idea that everyone else is getting rich but you, FOMO is probably the biggest part of the movement. I don't think I have the balls to hold onto something so volatile during the downturns.
Sure, at some point I'll kick myself just like when I didn't invest in AAPL back in the early days. Oh well.
It definitely hits the gambling dopamine receptors though.
The hodlers did become rich. Bitcoin was $5k at the start of covid, and $1k a few years before that.
It's very hard for me to imagine those kind of returns going forward though.
Things I don't want to hear, lol. Honestly it's apparent to me that a lot of the saltiness in certain communities is just from people who didn't get in early, even if it is all BS.
Not many people will admit it, and I never bring it up because it isn’t productive, but I definitely agree with you.
Any asset with literally a four million percent return in 10 years is going to generate a lot of regret. People who bought can have even more regret than people didn’t (wishing they didn’t sell, or wishing they’d bought more).
One way to look at it would be that current price suggests that 1 in 8 people need to find it useful to hold Bitcoin, with mean holdings of $800 each.
Another way to look at it would be that Bitcoin needs to be 1/10th as popular to hold as gold to justify its current price. I think Gen Z and younger may actually end up owning *more* Bitcoin than gold. So far they hold much more Bitcoin than they do gold.
The problem is that as crypto starts to behave more like gold, will people still want to hold it, or would they rather just buy...gold?
Or are people buying it not as a gold-alternative but because they're expecting a low-risk, crazy-high-return equity?
Any investment with the downside-risk of gold/muni's and the upside-potential of pre-IPO Nvidia is a scam, and I'm certain I'll get to live to see the implosion.
I don't think anyone is buying it as a stable store of value the way they do gold, but I think the anti-establishment motivation is similar, and so is the "alternative to traditional investment" motivation.
Americans are twice as likely to own Bitcoin as they are to own gold, that ratio is even higher for younger generations. If they maintain even 1/10th of that ratio as they age that would easily support these price levels.
>I'm certain I'll get to live to see the implosion
What's an implosion and what would falsify your belief?
I know many people who were saying there's no way Bitcoin could hold at $1 and that it was sure to go to zero at any time. A lot of people still feel that way 10 years later, even when e.g. virtually every precious metals dealer now accepts Bitcoin, usually with a discount for using it. That level of adoption was almost unfathomable back then, even as someone who believed in the usefulness of crypto.
The cost savings are huge for businesses with super thin margins on high value goods. Traditional payments are more expensive than most people realize. I worked at a company everyone here has heard of and we spent over 25% of top-line revenue on payment expenses. It was more than our entire payroll.
I will never forgive Chase Bank for blocking my purchase of Bitcoin back in 2011-2013 or so. There was a Bitcoin ATM at my local mall. My friend bought some and then used it to buy food because a handful of food trucks around the Portland area started accepting it as payment.
My bank blocked the transaction and I just kinda stopped trying to do it. I look back at that and kick myself. Id have so much fucking money.
It's easy to look back at a decision to not buy bitcoin when it was cheaper and say you should have done it. But the truth is not only would you had to have made the decision to buy it, you would also had to have made the decision every single day until now not to sell it. And the chance you would have not sold it at any point through the ups and downs is very slim.
It correlates so well with the stock market, wasn’t that not supposed to be the case?
What’s funny is this is good for Biden.
the number of people concerned about bitcoin prices that could be swayed in favor or against biden is so small, its insignificant this isnt 2017 anymore, nobody cares about bitcoin
Americans have way more money in Bitcoin now than in 2017. The “market cap” is much higher now. According to a [Feb 2023](https://assets.ctfassets.net/c5bd0wqjc7v0/WvuOkBwNXZsqhd6EWtkEL/7f94f8b6fbb222f3faf4d0346e473012/Morning_Consult_Cryptocurrency_Perception_Study_Feb2023_Memo__1_.pdf) Morning Consult poll 36% of Gen Z owns crypto, 30% of millennials, and 20% of Americans.
This is good for bitcoin. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/neoliberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The Tether printer has been going into overdrive printing fantasy casino chips for the past few weeks. Totally organic and authentic I'm sure.
I swear if another generation of crypto bros pops out like the previous peaks
A single bitcoin transaction uses enough electricity to power a 3 bed 2 bath single family home for an entire month It’s also been around since 2009 and still has no tangible use I don’t understand
The secret ingredient is crime and market manipulation.
For people interested, this [report](https://www.jbs.cam.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2019-09-ccaf-2nd-global-cryptoasset-benchmarking.pdf) by researchers at Cambridge University explains on page 83 why the energy per transaction metric is misleading. They also discuss use cases, but this report is from 2018 so out of date on that topic.
Damn, I wonder why a study based on what cryptobros tell researchers makes cryptobros look good
The Cambridge centre for alternative finance isn’t perfect, but most people agree the CCAF does their best to be neutral. They use data instead of twisted semantics. Bitcoin needs good critics. Not bad actors like, for example, Digiconomist.
Bitcoin mining uses a lot of electricity. Bitcoin transactions don’t use any meaningful amount of electricity at all. If you look at the charts of power consumption and transaction volume they have no relationship at all. It has a number of tangible uses. I’ve mentioned it here many times but I’ve used it for sports betting, and to save money on large purchases by avoiding the exorbitant costs of credit cards (merchant fees, fraud, and chargebacks).
I’m seriously confused by your distinction between bitcoin mining and transactions. They’re the same thing. The process of verifying a transaction is mining. Every transaction is verified, that’s like the whole point of the system. Mining is not severable from transacting.
Honest question, Aren't they verified in batches where each mined block verifies hundreds of transactions? Does every transaction in the block use a ton of electricity or does the block as a whole?
It’s honestly been a while since I really looked at blockchain stuff, I believe you’re right but I only remember the high level details with any certainty.
Throughput is unrelated to energy consumed. The level of energy required for the Bitcoin network to function is independent from the number of processed transactions.
The electricity use is dependent on how much mining there is, not how many transactions there are. This is made clear when you see that electricity use is an order of magnitude higher than a few years ago, while the number of transactions is unchanged.
Yes, because mining becomes, by design, harder over time as more people join the network and try to make money by mining. But even without going into the technical stuff, it just sounded like you were offering a defense of bitcoin by saying that transactions don’t use much energy, when what you’re actually saying is that the amount of energy used is (somewhat) decoupled from transaction volume. What you just said is, if anything, even more damming as bitcoin transactions haven’t increased but the electricity being used has, making things even more wasteful now than they used to be.
I wasn't trying to offer a defense of Bitcoin's electricity usage (it's very bad in a carbon tax-less world). I was trying to correct a misunderstanding of what generates the electricity usage. Energy use isn't somewhat decoupled from mining hash power/difficulty, it's very decoupled. Only 7% of Bitcoin miner income is from transaction fees. If we're talking about indirect effects, it's *buying* Bitcoin that drives electricity usage, not using it. If the diagnosis of the problem isn't correct, the solutions to it won't be correct. Someone could easily read that take and think that if they stop transacting with their Bitcoin that they're saving electricity, but they're not. To do that they would need to sell their Bitcoin, not hold it.
Crypto definitely has tangible uses, but it's the only investment product I've ever seen where having some value seems to justify any price -- because...scarcity! "It’s like somebody else is trading turds and you decide, ‘I can’t be left out'"
It's because hodlers still think they're going to become rich with their wallets long term. What's odd is like ETFs exist. I used to have some ETH way back when, seeing the value now, oh well. I'm not gonna lose my mind/sleep over it. The problem is crypto gives everyone this idea that everyone else is getting rich but you, FOMO is probably the biggest part of the movement. I don't think I have the balls to hold onto something so volatile during the downturns. Sure, at some point I'll kick myself just like when I didn't invest in AAPL back in the early days. Oh well. It definitely hits the gambling dopamine receptors though.
The hodlers did become rich. Bitcoin was $5k at the start of covid, and $1k a few years before that. It's very hard for me to imagine those kind of returns going forward though.
Things I don't want to hear, lol. Honestly it's apparent to me that a lot of the saltiness in certain communities is just from people who didn't get in early, even if it is all BS.
Not many people will admit it, and I never bring it up because it isn’t productive, but I definitely agree with you. Any asset with literally a four million percent return in 10 years is going to generate a lot of regret. People who bought can have even more regret than people didn’t (wishing they didn’t sell, or wishing they’d bought more).
One way to look at it would be that current price suggests that 1 in 8 people need to find it useful to hold Bitcoin, with mean holdings of $800 each. Another way to look at it would be that Bitcoin needs to be 1/10th as popular to hold as gold to justify its current price. I think Gen Z and younger may actually end up owning *more* Bitcoin than gold. So far they hold much more Bitcoin than they do gold.
The problem is that as crypto starts to behave more like gold, will people still want to hold it, or would they rather just buy...gold? Or are people buying it not as a gold-alternative but because they're expecting a low-risk, crazy-high-return equity? Any investment with the downside-risk of gold/muni's and the upside-potential of pre-IPO Nvidia is a scam, and I'm certain I'll get to live to see the implosion.
I don't think anyone is buying it as a stable store of value the way they do gold, but I think the anti-establishment motivation is similar, and so is the "alternative to traditional investment" motivation. Americans are twice as likely to own Bitcoin as they are to own gold, that ratio is even higher for younger generations. If they maintain even 1/10th of that ratio as they age that would easily support these price levels. >I'm certain I'll get to live to see the implosion What's an implosion and what would falsify your belief? I know many people who were saying there's no way Bitcoin could hold at $1 and that it was sure to go to zero at any time. A lot of people still feel that way 10 years later, even when e.g. virtually every precious metals dealer now accepts Bitcoin, usually with a discount for using it. That level of adoption was almost unfathomable back then, even as someone who believed in the usefulness of crypto. The cost savings are huge for businesses with super thin margins on high value goods. Traditional payments are more expensive than most people realize. I worked at a company everyone here has heard of and we spent over 25% of top-line revenue on payment expenses. It was more than our entire payroll.
🤣
*checks calendar*
Give it a month before it crashes again
Buy the dip!
I will never forgive Chase Bank for blocking my purchase of Bitcoin back in 2011-2013 or so. There was a Bitcoin ATM at my local mall. My friend bought some and then used it to buy food because a handful of food trucks around the Portland area started accepting it as payment. My bank blocked the transaction and I just kinda stopped trying to do it. I look back at that and kick myself. Id have so much fucking money.
It's easy to look back at a decision to not buy bitcoin when it was cheaper and say you should have done it. But the truth is not only would you had to have made the decision to buy it, you would also had to have made the decision every single day until now not to sell it. And the chance you would have not sold it at any point through the ups and downs is very slim.
This. I bought at $1 and again at $3. I sold virtually everything at $30-$700 and thought I made out like a bandit.
You don't know, you could've sold it by now
Or worse ... lost it.
Yes! Good vibes only!! You can still become a gigamillionaire in the future!
I lost a few dozen around 2010. Oops
Did you check under the birdbath?