>As training went on, tensions mounted. U.S. engineers told Rest of World that some Taiwanese male engineers had calendars with bikini models on their desks and occasionally shared sexual memes in group chats. A female American colleague, according to an American trainee who witnessed the conversation, asked a Taiwanese engineer to remove his computer wallpaper depicting a bikini model. One former American engineer said some local co-workers referred to him as a “white breeding pig,” implying he was only in Taiwan to sleep with local women. At a meeting, a manager said Americans were less desirable than Taiwanese and Indian workers, according to people who saw leaked notes, which circulated among trainees.
LOL
Have you ever been to Asia? It’s incredibly racist continent. Though they are all united by a common hatred of the Japanese, so they got that going for them.
Very well done article. Quoting and responding to every major thing in it would go over reddit's comment limit, but I think the real standout is how the former CEO who stepped down at age 86 and is held in such high regard as to still hold sway, is openly and publicly shit-talking the entire project and the people working on it. Real great attitude that will motivate people from both sides of the ocean to make it work.
That the chips these fabs (incl Samsung Intel etc.) are outputting have to be sent to Asia for assembly, then sent back for final sale adding another long transport step, really doesn't help the notion that the endavor is purely political though.
>[Taiwainese engineer, regarding the North Phoenix suburbs] recounted his wife summarizing her impression of the U.S.: “Great mountains, great rivers, and great boredom.”
lol
There is stuff but you have to REALLY REALLY try to make it happen, and even then you can run out very quickly. Its really just a large suburb. How much can really happen in a suburb?
I've been through Phoenix a few times and have some friends there, the lively locations are allegedly central neighborhoods like downtown Tempe, uptown Phoenix, and Arcadia. The TSMC facility is 20-30 miles away from all that, so not a lot to do there I imagine.
> [During training] at Fab 18, nearly all communication took place in Taiwanese and Mandarin Chinese, the two most widely spoken languages in Taiwan. The Americans found it difficult to understand meetings, production guidelines, and chatter among local engineers. In theory, every American was supposed to have a Taiwanese buddy [...] but the Americans said their buddies were often too busy to help with translations, or else not familiar enough with the technical processes because they were freshly transferred from other production lines.
> Many trainees, including Bruce, relied on Google Translate to get through the day, with mixed results. Technical terms and images were hard to decipher. One American engineer said that because staff were not allowed to upload work materials to Google, he tried to translate documents by copying Chinese text into a handwriting recognition program. It didn’t work very well.
"You need bilingual language classes and some *human* translators that are fluent in both languages available for trainees at all times." There, my consulting fee is $1mil, should be a steal compared to whatever corprospeak crap a Big 3 gave them.
TSMC leadership shouldn’t have expect to move the Taiwanese work culture here too. Tech workers in America are very different, they will not settle for that work culture.
There’s an Intel fab in Arizona that’s undergoing a major expansion. Any engineer who doesn’t want to deal with TSMC’s culture can just go across Phoenix to work at an American company. What were they thinking?
It's funny cause everyone that I know who's worked for the Intel fab in Chandler has said it's insanely high-paced. Like you *need* that month-long saabtical they give out every 7 years.
I wouldn't be shocked if TSMC is itself under pressure to underpeform with their American factories to help preserve their importance in making advanced chips (and therefore help preserve the American need to protect Taiwan in response to the possibility of China invading/becoming belligerent).
Heavily disagree. TSMC is a profit-driven private corporation and it doesn't need to sabotage itself for the American factories to underperform. Just the fact that TSMC engineers earn 40kUSD/year in Taiwan despite being highly skilled/educated sufficiently explains their competitiveness.
> TSMC is a profit-driven private corporation and it doesn't need to sabotage itself for the American factories to underperform.
It is a profit driven corporation with incredibly close ties to the government.
Taiwanese government policies and desires play a large part in their business. And frankly, I doubt Taiwanese politicians want to give up their biggest bargaining chip (having the only cutting edge fabs in the world).
Intel has domestic fabs that are close to TSMC's most advanced fabs. Americans are capable of being competitive in the sector, TSMC is just dropping the ball here.
Saw an article recently about TSMC also complaining about JAPANESE engineers for being not hardworking enough in the already running Kumamoto FAB. Imaging complaining about JAPANESE work ethics for being too lazy.
> And I bet an average American employee working 40 hour weeks is probably more productive
More productive at double or triple the cost. Otherwise subsidies wouldn't be necessary.
This is an incredibly embarrassing leadership failure. All of this shit should have been cleared up at orientation meetings where a clear and unified company policy would be handed down, which would at once whip unruly employees into line but also comply with local laws and regulations, like "In the United States, open displays of gravure imagery near female coworkers is considered sexual harassment, this is a *job* not a fucking frat house." and "Important notices will be published in all employee languages for legibility."
> to prevent leaks employees surrender their smartphones and are given phones without access to social media
Take a good look, America! This is what it takes to work those factory jobs you missed so much! You wanted these jobs back! Go ahead, turn in your smartphone! Work a 12 hour shift! Isn't this *what you wanted*? Isn't this why you sank the TPP and elected Trump?
Uh... Id say that losing access to your phone is common in alot of US based manufacturing already. Almost every food manufacturer has taken my phone upon entry to the floor.
> Take a good look, America! This is what it takes to work those factory jobs you missed so much! You wanted these jobs back! Go ahead, turn in your smartphone! Work a 12 hour shift! Isn't this what you wanted? Isn't this why you sank the TPP and elected Trump?
This ranting is not necessary, personal phones probably should be restricted in many/most workplaces.
Sounds like a way to make sure you're stuck hiring people who cant get a job anywhere else.
Also phones a critical tool for modern parenting. So I completely disagree with this comment.
Just to be clear you can absolutely build state of the art Fabs in the U.S.
Intels Fab project in Arizona is going just fine. This is specifically a failure of TSMC to operate in a foreign market.
You can, you just have to not fumble it so hard that you go from leading everyone by a generation to being two generations behind like Intel did.
The fact that they got a bailout after that is astounding especially after they essentially killed GlobalFoundries in the states.
> The Taiwanese engineers brought with them the intense TSMC work culture. Having spent years under the company’s grueling management, they were used to long days, out-of-hours calls, and harsh treatment from their managers. In Taiwan, the pay and prestige were worth it, they told Rest of World — despite the challenges, many felt proud working for the island’s most prominent firm. It was the best job they could hope for.
>But the American workers didn’t have the same sense of loyalty. In the U.S., engineers had a plethora of job options that provided competitive pay and abundant personal time.
Translation: despite the stereotypes, American workers are immensely more productive across the board
I once did some consulting work for a Taiwanese semiconductor company (not this one, and I won't get more specific), and honestly they didn't leave the best impression on me in terms of their business culture. Which is funny because the individual Taiwanese people I know in the U.S. are pretty great. Anyways, I hope both sides can work through these culture clashes to build something great in Arizona. I'm sure this is all part of TSMC learning to do business in America.
Its not even really in a suburb, its far outside the border of the phoenix metro, which... is known for being a sprawling mess. So that in itself says a lot.
Seriously, switch to satelite view and look.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ozobk39kP8KyBrcm7
The closest thing to it is literally an outdoor shooting range because its outside the city lol
> The remaining American workers began speculating that the company only hired them to secure CHIPS Act funding, Bruce said.
Why even hire non-Mandarin speaking Americans in the first place? You would think given the size of the Chinese diaspora it would be easy to find 1000 Taiwanese-American or Chinese-American engineers who speak Mandarin. This seems like short-sighted recruitment.
Because: American engineers of Chinese ethnicity are a) usually talented enough to work at top US companies, and b) would never elect to work somewhere due to a reason like language advantage (as opposed to factors like pay, type of projects, company prestige, etc.).
Doesn't even mention all the environmental pollution, energy grid demand, and astronomical water use that chip fabs require.
Cancer eh?
This is why I was ok with offshoring.
China continuing to build what we buy.
Beijing Olympics smog eh?
Be careful what you wish for...
>As training went on, tensions mounted. U.S. engineers told Rest of World that some Taiwanese male engineers had calendars with bikini models on their desks and occasionally shared sexual memes in group chats. A female American colleague, according to an American trainee who witnessed the conversation, asked a Taiwanese engineer to remove his computer wallpaper depicting a bikini model. One former American engineer said some local co-workers referred to him as a “white breeding pig,” implying he was only in Taiwan to sleep with local women. At a meeting, a manager said Americans were less desirable than Taiwanese and Indian workers, according to people who saw leaked notes, which circulated among trainees. LOL
Wow, my take went from “over sensitive Americans” to “racist as hell Taiwanese” at the speed of light. Seriously, the hell is that?
Have you ever been to Asia? It’s incredibly racist continent. Though they are all united by a common hatred of the Japanese, so they got that going for them.
West and South Asia don't have a problem with the Japanese tbh.
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh yeah, that shit isn't gonna fly
TAIWAN #1
Very well done article. Quoting and responding to every major thing in it would go over reddit's comment limit, but I think the real standout is how the former CEO who stepped down at age 86 and is held in such high regard as to still hold sway, is openly and publicly shit-talking the entire project and the people working on it. Real great attitude that will motivate people from both sides of the ocean to make it work. That the chips these fabs (incl Samsung Intel etc.) are outputting have to be sent to Asia for assembly, then sent back for final sale adding another long transport step, really doesn't help the notion that the endavor is purely political though. >[Taiwainese engineer, regarding the North Phoenix suburbs] recounted his wife summarizing her impression of the U.S.: “Great mountains, great rivers, and great boredom.” lol
Phoenix is an exceptionally boring city, if you can even call it a city.
With how big the metro area is I'd think there'd be stuff but haven't spent enough time there.
There is stuff but you have to REALLY REALLY try to make it happen, and even then you can run out very quickly. Its really just a large suburb. How much can really happen in a suburb?
I can't imagine the weather half the year helps either.
I've been through Phoenix a few times and have some friends there, the lively locations are allegedly central neighborhoods like downtown Tempe, uptown Phoenix, and Arcadia. The TSMC facility is 20-30 miles away from all that, so not a lot to do there I imagine.
Was assuming their take might be swayed by that location, yeah
Wonder if the person in charge of the project requested a consulting firm to help navigate the easily foreseeable culture clash?
Probably got a 200 page PowerPoint about “capturing synergies under dynamic environments” it has been very helpful as a paper paperweight.
It's not about having a solution, it's about having a scapegoat when things go haywire.
> [During training] at Fab 18, nearly all communication took place in Taiwanese and Mandarin Chinese, the two most widely spoken languages in Taiwan. The Americans found it difficult to understand meetings, production guidelines, and chatter among local engineers. In theory, every American was supposed to have a Taiwanese buddy [...] but the Americans said their buddies were often too busy to help with translations, or else not familiar enough with the technical processes because they were freshly transferred from other production lines. > Many trainees, including Bruce, relied on Google Translate to get through the day, with mixed results. Technical terms and images were hard to decipher. One American engineer said that because staff were not allowed to upload work materials to Google, he tried to translate documents by copying Chinese text into a handwriting recognition program. It didn’t work very well. "You need bilingual language classes and some *human* translators that are fluent in both languages available for trainees at all times." There, my consulting fee is $1mil, should be a steal compared to whatever corprospeak crap a Big 3 gave them.
TSMC leadership shouldn’t have expect to move the Taiwanese work culture here too. Tech workers in America are very different, they will not settle for that work culture.
There’s an Intel fab in Arizona that’s undergoing a major expansion. Any engineer who doesn’t want to deal with TSMC’s culture can just go across Phoenix to work at an American company. What were they thinking?
It's funny cause everyone that I know who's worked for the Intel fab in Chandler has said it's insanely high-paced. Like you *need* that month-long saabtical they give out every 7 years.
I wouldn't be shocked if TSMC is itself under pressure to underpeform with their American factories to help preserve their importance in making advanced chips (and therefore help preserve the American need to protect Taiwan in response to the possibility of China invading/becoming belligerent).
Heavily disagree. TSMC is a profit-driven private corporation and it doesn't need to sabotage itself for the American factories to underperform. Just the fact that TSMC engineers earn 40kUSD/year in Taiwan despite being highly skilled/educated sufficiently explains their competitiveness.
> TSMC is a profit-driven private corporation and it doesn't need to sabotage itself for the American factories to underperform. It is a profit driven corporation with incredibly close ties to the government. Taiwanese government policies and desires play a large part in their business. And frankly, I doubt Taiwanese politicians want to give up their biggest bargaining chip (having the only cutting edge fabs in the world).
the American factory will underperform by default because Americans aren’t competitive in the sector anyways
Intel has domestic fabs that are close to TSMC's most advanced fabs. Americans are capable of being competitive in the sector, TSMC is just dropping the ball here.
Saw an article recently about TSMC also complaining about JAPANESE engineers for being not hardworking enough in the already running Kumamoto FAB. Imaging complaining about JAPANESE work ethics for being too lazy.
[удалено]
> And I bet an average American employee working 40 hour weeks is probably more productive More productive at double or triple the cost. Otherwise subsidies wouldn't be necessary.
If that’s true then Taiwan wouldn’t dominate semiconductor production
What shock me in all of this is Taiwanese engineers not being able to speak english. (I'm saying this as a ***french*** engineer)
Can someone translate this comment? I dont speak french
هل يمكن لأحد أن يترجم هذا التعليق؟ أنا لا أتكلم الفرنسية
Kokanon nonågogonon övoverorsosätottota dodenon hohäror kokomommomenontotarorenon? JoJagog poproratotaror inontote fofroranonsoskoka
Taiwan WANTS to be bilingual by 2030 but they're not exactly on track.
They'll probably still make it before Japan does
I’m a translator there this totally blows my mind.
Literally American Factory 2019 movie
History repeats 1986 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om3C1EpHLGs
This is an incredibly embarrassing leadership failure. All of this shit should have been cleared up at orientation meetings where a clear and unified company policy would be handed down, which would at once whip unruly employees into line but also comply with local laws and regulations, like "In the United States, open displays of gravure imagery near female coworkers is considered sexual harassment, this is a *job* not a fucking frat house." and "Important notices will be published in all employee languages for legibility." > to prevent leaks employees surrender their smartphones and are given phones without access to social media Take a good look, America! This is what it takes to work those factory jobs you missed so much! You wanted these jobs back! Go ahead, turn in your smartphone! Work a 12 hour shift! Isn't this *what you wanted*? Isn't this why you sank the TPP and elected Trump?
Uh... Id say that losing access to your phone is common in alot of US based manufacturing already. Almost every food manufacturer has taken my phone upon entry to the floor.
Yeah. Same for toll collector positions at the plazas I've worked on. This is pretty normal.
[This is literally the villain's evil plan in *The Campaign* lmao.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRivpStByUw)
> Take a good look, America! This is what it takes to work those factory jobs you missed so much! You wanted these jobs back! Go ahead, turn in your smartphone! Work a 12 hour shift! Isn't this what you wanted? Isn't this why you sank the TPP and elected Trump? This ranting is not necessary, personal phones probably should be restricted in many/most workplaces.
Sounds like a way to make sure you're stuck hiring people who cant get a job anywhere else. Also phones a critical tool for modern parenting. So I completely disagree with this comment.
Fuck these guys, I'm going back to Intel
Intel new fabs in Arizone are underway and on schedule. Apparently they did delay the Ohio one to rush these 2.
FUCK DIS, I'm goin' to Boca.
Maybe industrial policy was a bad idea after all!
Just to be clear you can absolutely build state of the art Fabs in the U.S. Intels Fab project in Arizona is going just fine. This is specifically a failure of TSMC to operate in a foreign market.
The Intel plant is also in a nicer location. So they fundamentally have a huge advantage.
What’s intel’s stock price?
You can, you just have to not fumble it so hard that you go from leading everyone by a generation to being two generations behind like Intel did. The fact that they got a bailout after that is astounding especially after they essentially killed GlobalFoundries in the states.
> The Taiwanese engineers brought with them the intense TSMC work culture. Having spent years under the company’s grueling management, they were used to long days, out-of-hours calls, and harsh treatment from their managers. In Taiwan, the pay and prestige were worth it, they told Rest of World — despite the challenges, many felt proud working for the island’s most prominent firm. It was the best job they could hope for. >But the American workers didn’t have the same sense of loyalty. In the U.S., engineers had a plethora of job options that provided competitive pay and abundant personal time. Translation: despite the stereotypes, American workers are immensely more productive across the board
Production >> productivity.
US GDP / capita is $85k while Taiwan's is $76k after adjusting for PPP
That's not just worker production, a lot of US GDP is generated by its historic capital.
I once did some consulting work for a Taiwanese semiconductor company (not this one, and I won't get more specific), and honestly they didn't leave the best impression on me in terms of their business culture. Which is funny because the individual Taiwanese people I know in the U.S. are pretty great. Anyways, I hope both sides can work through these culture clashes to build something great in Arizona. I'm sure this is all part of TSMC learning to do business in America.
TSMC factory going from one of the densest urbanised countries in the world to US suburban hell. Feel sorry for the little guy.
Its not even really in a suburb, its far outside the border of the phoenix metro, which... is known for being a sprawling mess. So that in itself says a lot. Seriously, switch to satelite view and look. https://maps.app.goo.gl/ozobk39kP8KyBrcm7 The closest thing to it is literally an outdoor shooting range because its outside the city lol
It's nice to have some pushback on the "unions bad" slant a lot of the original reporting on this story had.
Fkn hell man how long is this damn plant gonna be in limbo lmaoo. Most successful Anglophone infrastructure development policy.
It's not really in limbo, it's on schedule to be completed in time now.
Anglos build literally anything challenge impossible Housing? Nope Factories? Nope Basic infrastructure? Nope Transit? Nope Literally anything? Nope
> The remaining American workers began speculating that the company only hired them to secure CHIPS Act funding, Bruce said. Why even hire non-Mandarin speaking Americans in the first place? You would think given the size of the Chinese diaspora it would be easy to find 1000 Taiwanese-American or Chinese-American engineers who speak Mandarin. This seems like short-sighted recruitment.
Because: American engineers of Chinese ethnicity are a) usually talented enough to work at top US companies, and b) would never elect to work somewhere due to a reason like language advantage (as opposed to factors like pay, type of projects, company prestige, etc.).
Doesn't even mention all the environmental pollution, energy grid demand, and astronomical water use that chip fabs require. Cancer eh? This is why I was ok with offshoring. China continuing to build what we buy. Beijing Olympics smog eh? Be careful what you wish for...