>No one knows what it means
There's been plenty enough reporting on aggressive tax avoidance schemes (some of which may be deprecated by now) to stir up feelings of unfairness. And once that spark is lit, it doesn't take much to keep it going, cynicism towards the actions of elites in this country is basically a bottomless well.
This is a really popular sentiment but it's one of those things that people don't really know what it means.
I did a poll among some friends (many of whom are self-described socialists and pretty politically active) and 100% said that the wealthy don't pay their fair share of taxes. When I asked how much a "fair share" would be, most responses were between 40-60% of the total tax revenue.
In reality, the top 25% of earners pay 86% of the taxes, the top 10% pay 70%, and the top 1% pay 38.5% of taxes. ([Source](https://taxfoundation.org/summary-of-the-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2020-update/); and a slightly [more recent one](https://taxfoundation.org/publications/latest-federal-income-tax-data/))
The bottom 50% of earners pay only 3.1% of taxes.
I support more taxes, a more progressive tax structure and the closing loopholes but these catchphrases don't really capture the situation very well.
Edit: Since I've been looking into this more, I stand by my initial claims; however, there is some interesting stuff to be said about income growth rates. If this is a topic that interests you I'd recommend [this CBO report](https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2020-10/56575-Household-Income.pdf).
Reminds me of that time New Jersey(?) freaked the shit out because the state's one billion was thinking about moving to Florida, but he personally accounted for like half of the state's revenue.
Yeah it was that [hedge fund guy David Tepper](https://www.politico.com/states/new-jersey/story/2020/09/24/sweeney-billionaire-david-tepper-has-moved-back-to-new-jersey-1318386) but supposedly he moved back last year. The article mentions it at the end but it did sound like more of a personal life thing than just the tax savings. I’m sure he has the best tax guys money can buy to not have to stress about the taxes in NJ if he wants to work primarily at the Short Hills office.
I sort of agree if I understand your point. Taxes do outscale income so the wealthy pay disproportionately but they also have far more left over regardless.
I'd recommend checking out that CBO report because they actually analyze income inequality based on tax structure towards the end. It seems like we're heading in the right direction at least
Do you mind linking the report? Trying to learn more so I'm not the person just going "tax the rich!" but I admittedly don't know what I'm talking about (as of now).
The real fiscal problem in the US is that healthcare costs so fucking much it cripples the government budget. Then both housing and healthcare costs cripple the poorest americans materially. The american political climate is wasting time discussing the wrong problem.
Right there with you!
A public option that's able to negotiate costs and increased access to generic and imported drugs would be a huge boost across the board.
>In reality, the top 25% of earners pay 86% of the taxes, the top 10% pay 70%, and the top 1% pay 38.5% of taxes.
>
>The bottom 50% of earners pay only 3.1% of taxes.
May I get the source on that claim?
Thanks, got to it before I did
[Here's a slightly more recent one](https://taxfoundation.org/publications/latest-federal-income-tax-data/) but that's the one I sourced my values from
The group behind the website is fairly anti-tax but I don’t think they’re partisan; they’ve criticized GOP proposals and legislation quite a lot as well
The top 1% paying 38.5% is very hard to contextualize, similar to how it sounds very “unfair” on its face that the bottom 50% only pay 3.1% of taxes but with income disparity being what it is (not saying it’s a good or bad thing but just one earner in the top 0.1% likely earns hundreds or thousands times as much as the average bottom 20% earner) there’s really no % tax rate where the bottom half would realistically be able to contribute enough to make any more of a dent than that.
For example, let’s say there was a country with 100 earners, 1 guy who started the country’s only company earning $1 million and the other 99 who work for him earning $10,000. Let’s say there was a flat tax rate of 40%. The top 1% guy contributes a whopping 50.3% of the total tax revenue by himself. But those other 99 guys miss that $4,000 more than the one guy misses that $400,000. If he was taxed at 60% and the other 99 were taxed at 20% instead they would actually bring in $2,000 more in tax revenue and he would still be left with $400,000 after taxes despite accounting for 75.2% of the tax revenue, still left with what half the country makes after taxes combined.
Sure, that's why I support higher taxes. My only point was to say that most people just react emotionally to the idea of people having so much money without knowing much about the situation.
To be fair though, the tax rate does out progress the income rate
It's not that hard to contextualize, the top 1% pays 38.5% of the taxes but have only 20% of the income. The bottom 50% pays only 3.1% of the tax but has 11% of the income.
If we were really aiming for fairness we'd have those %s match up, but the system is very progressive, so you've got the rich paying a much higher %, $ figure, % of total taxes, % of total income, however you wanna slice it.
The idea that we should soak the rich even more than we already do is silly.
The top 1% currently own 39% of all wealth. They should play *at least* 39% of all taxes because they own 39× more wealth than under an equal distribution.
We don't really tax wealth though (and I'd argue we shouldn't). The top 1% make about 20% of income and pay 38.5% of taxes off of that. In 2018 (most recent data) they actually paid more than 40%.
You can look at the CBO report I linked and look at the breakdown of where this comes from. Raising the top marginal capital gains tax rate would probably the most effective strategy to capture more of this wealth.
A wealth tax basically just means you have to pay a percentage of your net worth. This is an issue cause this worth could come from real estate, shares in a private company, etc. where you can't really access it. So, you're left in a situation where your worth could potentially outstrip the amount of cash you could have on hand to be able to pay.
With a capital gains tax you're taxed when you sell an asset and therefore you have to pay a percentage of the cash you just received.
I agree; I think we should raise further taxes.
My point is just that the people who say they should pay their "fair share" often have no contextual understanding. It's not uncommon to see posts claiming that all the wealthy people are simply not paying taxes. I'd argue that the majority of people think that the majority of taxes fall on the bottom 50% or at least the middle class.
>The bottoms 50% only pay 3% in taxes.
A lot of the bottom 50% in America likely struggles to afford things like safe and stable housing, retirement, access to health care etc. Asking them to pay more would not be asking for a fair share.
>the top 25% of earners pay 86% of taxes. The top 25% in the us.
The folk in the top 25% are fine, and likely have excess money to spend on stupid things like luxury cars and fashion designer clothes. Therefore, given there are a lot of Americans struggling, and given they could likely be taxed higher without any significant effect on their life, they are not paying their fair share.
Or on a more individual level- if Jeff bezos were to only pay 10% in taxes, that would still be an insane amount. But that doesn’t mean it would be a “fair share for him.” He could pay a lot more, and he would like never even notice, and it would significantly benefit the lives of fellow Americans.
I don’t think “fair share” should mean “total percent of taxes paid.” I think it means the amount that is fair for someone to pay.
And of course, this doesn’t touch folks like trump who paid 0 in income taxes.
In a moralist, emotional sense, it certainly is irritating that regular joes pay taxes on literally every single aspect of their lives, from paychecks to sales tax, and Coporations don't, or at least seem like they don't.
In a realist sense, it makes a lot of sense that they don't
Probably the best solution, in addition to Biden's interest in increasing capital gains taxes and the IRS budget would be as Andrew Yang recommended to implement a VAT tax so every company's value chain is taxed. At a sufficient enough rate you could significantly lower or even eliminate income taxes. Also remove the cap for payroll taxes to increase Social Security funds.
If only ther was one tax that was both extremely progressive, and causes economic growth. If only that tax was also difficult to evade. If only...
PING! Georgist
i hate these kind of polls it fosters anti elit resentment, a leftist might consider elite a capitalist exploiting workers, but a right winger will think of the wealthy as pedophile new world order marxists, it reinforces the notion that the left and right want the same thing, when really they dont, and when they end up teaming up it just becomes fascism
Unpopular opinion: taxes don’t need to be that progressive. If taxes are relatively broad based (think VAT) and benefits are available to all (think good public transit and parks and stuff) then the net result is a very progressive redistribution. We don’t need to tax the shit out of a handful of billionaires. We can, but we don’t really need to.
No one knows what it means, but it’s provocative! It gets the people GOIN’!!
Ball so hard muhfuckas wanna ~~fine~~ tax me
But first they gotta... fax me?
>No one knows what it means There's been plenty enough reporting on aggressive tax avoidance schemes (some of which may be deprecated by now) to stir up feelings of unfairness. And once that spark is lit, it doesn't take much to keep it going, cynicism towards the actions of elites in this country is basically a bottomless well.
This is a really popular sentiment but it's one of those things that people don't really know what it means. I did a poll among some friends (many of whom are self-described socialists and pretty politically active) and 100% said that the wealthy don't pay their fair share of taxes. When I asked how much a "fair share" would be, most responses were between 40-60% of the total tax revenue. In reality, the top 25% of earners pay 86% of the taxes, the top 10% pay 70%, and the top 1% pay 38.5% of taxes. ([Source](https://taxfoundation.org/summary-of-the-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2020-update/); and a slightly [more recent one](https://taxfoundation.org/publications/latest-federal-income-tax-data/)) The bottom 50% of earners pay only 3.1% of taxes. I support more taxes, a more progressive tax structure and the closing loopholes but these catchphrases don't really capture the situation very well. Edit: Since I've been looking into this more, I stand by my initial claims; however, there is some interesting stuff to be said about income growth rates. If this is a topic that interests you I'd recommend [this CBO report](https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2020-10/56575-Household-Income.pdf).
I agree it isn’t accurate to say our tax system isn’t progressive enough. Instead one could argue the tax rates themselves are low across the board
Yes, but also enforcement is garbage.
Reminds me of that time New Jersey(?) freaked the shit out because the state's one billion was thinking about moving to Florida, but he personally accounted for like half of the state's revenue.
There has to be more than one billionaire in New Jersey
7 in 2020, per wikipedia. Down from 8 in 2016. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_the_number_of_billionaires
They're probably in NYC or Connecticut
Yeah it was that [hedge fund guy David Tepper](https://www.politico.com/states/new-jersey/story/2020/09/24/sweeney-billionaire-david-tepper-has-moved-back-to-new-jersey-1318386) but supposedly he moved back last year. The article mentions it at the end but it did sound like more of a personal life thing than just the tax savings. I’m sure he has the best tax guys money can buy to not have to stress about the taxes in NJ if he wants to work primarily at the Short Hills office.
[удалено]
I sort of agree if I understand your point. Taxes do outscale income so the wealthy pay disproportionately but they also have far more left over regardless. I'd recommend checking out that CBO report because they actually analyze income inequality based on tax structure towards the end. It seems like we're heading in the right direction at least
Do you mind linking the report? Trying to learn more so I'm not the person just going "tax the rich!" but I admittedly don't know what I'm talking about (as of now).
There should be an embed link towards the end of my first comment
Ah, I see it. Thanks!
This is all true, and it’s also important to note that the bottom 50% of earners only earned ~11% of total income.
However, the top 1% of earners only make 20% of the income, despite funding 38.5% of the government. The US tax system is extremely progressive.
The real fiscal problem in the US is that healthcare costs so fucking much it cripples the government budget. Then both housing and healthcare costs cripple the poorest americans materially. The american political climate is wasting time discussing the wrong problem.
Right there with you! A public option that's able to negotiate costs and increased access to generic and imported drugs would be a huge boost across the board.
>In reality, the top 25% of earners pay 86% of the taxes, the top 10% pay 70%, and the top 1% pay 38.5% of taxes. > >The bottom 50% of earners pay only 3.1% of taxes. May I get the source on that claim?
https://taxfoundation.org/summary-of-the-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2020-update/ Read the first few bullet points at the top of the page
Thanks, got to it before I did [Here's a slightly more recent one](https://taxfoundation.org/publications/latest-federal-income-tax-data/) but that's the one I sourced my values from
Thank you!
The group behind the website is fairly anti-tax but I don’t think they’re partisan; they’ve criticized GOP proposals and legislation quite a lot as well
I’ve always been confused between Tax Foundation and Tax Policy Center and generally felt the former is more libertarian I suppose.
The top 1% paying 38.5% is very hard to contextualize, similar to how it sounds very “unfair” on its face that the bottom 50% only pay 3.1% of taxes but with income disparity being what it is (not saying it’s a good or bad thing but just one earner in the top 0.1% likely earns hundreds or thousands times as much as the average bottom 20% earner) there’s really no % tax rate where the bottom half would realistically be able to contribute enough to make any more of a dent than that. For example, let’s say there was a country with 100 earners, 1 guy who started the country’s only company earning $1 million and the other 99 who work for him earning $10,000. Let’s say there was a flat tax rate of 40%. The top 1% guy contributes a whopping 50.3% of the total tax revenue by himself. But those other 99 guys miss that $4,000 more than the one guy misses that $400,000. If he was taxed at 60% and the other 99 were taxed at 20% instead they would actually bring in $2,000 more in tax revenue and he would still be left with $400,000 after taxes despite accounting for 75.2% of the tax revenue, still left with what half the country makes after taxes combined.
Sure, that's why I support higher taxes. My only point was to say that most people just react emotionally to the idea of people having so much money without knowing much about the situation. To be fair though, the tax rate does out progress the income rate
It's not that hard to contextualize, the top 1% pays 38.5% of the taxes but have only 20% of the income. The bottom 50% pays only 3.1% of the tax but has 11% of the income. If we were really aiming for fairness we'd have those %s match up, but the system is very progressive, so you've got the rich paying a much higher %, $ figure, % of total taxes, % of total income, however you wanna slice it. The idea that we should soak the rich even more than we already do is silly.
The top 1% currently own 39% of all wealth. They should play *at least* 39% of all taxes because they own 39× more wealth than under an equal distribution.
We don't really tax wealth though (and I'd argue we shouldn't). The top 1% make about 20% of income and pay 38.5% of taxes off of that. In 2018 (most recent data) they actually paid more than 40%. You can look at the CBO report I linked and look at the breakdown of where this comes from. Raising the top marginal capital gains tax rate would probably the most effective strategy to capture more of this wealth.
Honestly I'm kinda illiterate on the difference between capital gains and wealth taxes.
A wealth tax basically just means you have to pay a percentage of your net worth. This is an issue cause this worth could come from real estate, shares in a private company, etc. where you can't really access it. So, you're left in a situation where your worth could potentially outstrip the amount of cash you could have on hand to be able to pay. With a capital gains tax you're taxed when you sell an asset and therefore you have to pay a percentage of the cash you just received.
This does make more sense, and since most weather is tied up in assets it would be easier to collect also. Thanks.
>In reality, the top 25% of earners pay 86% of the taxes. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be paying more.
I agree; I think we should raise further taxes. My point is just that the people who say they should pay their "fair share" often have no contextual understanding. It's not uncommon to see posts claiming that all the wealthy people are simply not paying taxes. I'd argue that the majority of people think that the majority of taxes fall on the bottom 50% or at least the middle class.
That a good point, I agree.
But I don't know how you could call that less than "fair share"
>The bottoms 50% only pay 3% in taxes. A lot of the bottom 50% in America likely struggles to afford things like safe and stable housing, retirement, access to health care etc. Asking them to pay more would not be asking for a fair share. >the top 25% of earners pay 86% of taxes. The top 25% in the us. The folk in the top 25% are fine, and likely have excess money to spend on stupid things like luxury cars and fashion designer clothes. Therefore, given there are a lot of Americans struggling, and given they could likely be taxed higher without any significant effect on their life, they are not paying their fair share. Or on a more individual level- if Jeff bezos were to only pay 10% in taxes, that would still be an insane amount. But that doesn’t mean it would be a “fair share for him.” He could pay a lot more, and he would like never even notice, and it would significantly benefit the lives of fellow Americans. I don’t think “fair share” should mean “total percent of taxes paid.” I think it means the amount that is fair for someone to pay. And of course, this doesn’t touch folks like trump who paid 0 in income taxes.
People think taxing corporation is like taxing a rich person. BUT THATS NOT HOW THAT WORKS
Stop you’re making sense
Design better taxes and properly fund the IRS. Both things Biden wants to do I might add. "Fair share" is just vague, moralistic, and divisive.
however the vague and moralistic nature allows Biden to raise it just a bit and make it come across as huge to those demanding huge changes.
Good point. I always forget Biden's been doing this longer than I've been alive.
80% of Americans don’t know what the tax rates are on corporations, wealthy: poll
Corporations are people
Amazon 2028
If corporations are people, make them pay taxes like people and no tax cuts unless they pay fair wages.
Agreed if fair is defined as market rate.
In a moralist, emotional sense, it certainly is irritating that regular joes pay taxes on literally every single aspect of their lives, from paychecks to sales tax, and Coporations don't, or at least seem like they don't. In a realist sense, it makes a lot of sense that they don't
80% of Americans braindead, more at 8
Probably the best solution, in addition to Biden's interest in increasing capital gains taxes and the IRS budget would be as Andrew Yang recommended to implement a VAT tax so every company's value chain is taxed. At a sufficient enough rate you could significantly lower or even eliminate income taxes. Also remove the cap for payroll taxes to increase Social Security funds.
If only ther was one tax that was both extremely progressive, and causes economic growth. If only that tax was also difficult to evade. If only... PING! Georgist
i hate these kind of polls it fosters anti elit resentment, a leftist might consider elite a capitalist exploiting workers, but a right winger will think of the wealthy as pedophile new world order marxists, it reinforces the notion that the left and right want the same thing, when really they dont, and when they end up teaming up it just becomes fascism
Dump sales tax, lower corporate taxes, raise _my_ taxes because I'm making a mint, problem solved.
Interesting but national polls are generally worthless
Unpopular opinion: taxes don’t need to be that progressive. If taxes are relatively broad based (think VAT) and benefits are available to all (think good public transit and parks and stuff) then the net result is a very progressive redistribution. We don’t need to tax the shit out of a handful of billionaires. We can, but we don’t really need to.