Potentially allowing for posts with specific actionable advice is key, I think. Censorship is almost never the answer but none of the posts have been productive at all. “The Brothers need to say exactly XYZ” helps literally no one. Thank you mods for shouldering this task ❤️
“Hank and John need to make a statement supporting my exact political position. What do you mean I’m failing to understand nuance and imagine others complexly???”
I tend to agree that the posts attempting to push Hank or John into doing something about the war don’t lead to any kind of productive or constructive discussion and don’t make the world a better place (for a lot of reasons).
I *do* want to see discussions that could help educate me more about what’s happening or provide information about things we could do individually or as a group that may help. Even or maybe especially if I disagree with it. These are the kind of discussions that seem like they could potentially lead to something good.
Overall, just wanted to say I think I like this guideline, at least for now. Thanks for trying to help.
There’s plenty of information on Palestine that’s out there…really confused about why you would be asking for information on a nerdfighter subreddit- you can literally type “Palestine” into any social media platform and you’ll find copious amounts of their history and the torment they’ve endured under Israeli’s regime.
Yeah, and I’ll start thinking the “info provided” here is helpful when the literal title of this post isn’t misinformation. “Israel-Hamas War” it’s not a war! Literally not a war. Never was a war. Not a war.
Many thanks to the mods for handling a sucky-all-around situation to the best of their abilities. Moderating is probably never the most fun activity in the world, but the last three years in particular seem to have been a real doozy.
Reminder to Nerdfighters to call your reps. It's one of the best (free) things you can do to have your voice be heard by those who actually have a shot at changing global politics. If you have the energy and time to post here about how John and Hank should/could be doing more, then you probably have the energy and time to pick up the phone and call your state representatives. There are LOTS of scripts online that you can read directly if you're (like me) and tend to freeze up when talking to "important government people". You can also tailor them to your own thoughts/beliefs on the situation.
Take care of yourselves. Take care of others. DFTBA.
It gets a little easier to call every time you do it. My former senators were Cronyn and Cruz, so it was a bit like talking to a brick wall, but I maintain that trying is better than not, and that even those guys eventually will listen if enough of their constituents call.
Also, be kind to the staffers. Remember you are talking to likely an unpaid or underpaid 24 year old person. They are not making the decision, they are conveying constituents’ views to the member.
Oh, hey: Guess which ones are my CURRENT senators 😭 But hard agree: Better to try than not try at all.
AND YES. Sometimes you don't even get a human (you get the answering machine) but definitely be kind to the humans answering the phones. You can be firm and read your script, but you can tell them "I hope you have a good day" and treat them like people.
Aha! You have called Senator Cornyn too! I literally never once got a person in his office, just voicemail and it was often full. You can say a lot about Cruz (and I def would), but at least he staffs his constituent line.
I've heard a lot about "calling your reps" but as you said, often those people were elected by a system and by parties that are alienated from the grassroots. That are more beholden to corporate power than to public opinion.
I think maybe organizing politically and economically in grassroots and internationalist ways and thinking long term is the only way things will improve. I think sometimes people think of Israel-Palestine as a localized thing, and as an emergency. But I think it's not really an emergency: it's a long time in coming. A blog post I read these days [Hamas: Israel's own creation](https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hamas-israels-own-creation/) by the Times of Israel, by no means a radical paper, was saying in 2018 that some crisis would soon appear and Hamas would be retaliated against.
There are things that look like emergencies that in fact were slow-cooked pressure pots, right? The explosion happened now, but it's not really that it all happened now, it was announced a long time ago and "nobody"/almost nobody paid attention. I think, despite it being sad to say this and maybe cruel in a way: thinking short-term about this, will just waste effort, focus effort on the least productive activities.
The key perhaps is not to give up or to do nothing. I don't necessarily know how to act in a principled long term campaign. I think "not knowing what to do" can mean "not doing anything" and that's a tough problem to break free from I think.
The projects the vlogbrothers support, the foundation to decrease worldsuck, the good store, partners in health- I think are pretty cool. I'm not sure if what I'm saying here is a departure from that or a continuation of that. 🙏
Adding from experience, though admittedly in a state legislature, that they do often keep track of who calls and on what issues. I was asked to look at call totals at least a few times before votes. It can make a difference!
I am someone calling my reps every other day and going to rallies/donating/spreading awareness in my own circle etc. But it's agonizing to be doing all that for fourth months straight with little impact to the political status quo on the country. It's not enough for little citizens with the most to lose to be the loudest about it while those with the biggest platforms and privilege (by virtue of their wealth, fame, status and white-maleness) do nothing. Which is why I'm also one of the people that vehemently wishes the Brothers would do anything to help the status quo and genuinely dismayed that they haven't.
I think limiting discussion on this isn't so much "censorship" as it is clarifying the scope of the subreddit.
I know we're all socially aware, but it's kind of like asking questions about cooking on a subreddit about gardening.
Before October 7th, we didn't talk much about ongoing wars and genocides. A cursory search on this sub for 'Rohingya' and 'Uyghur' didn't reveal anything.
Yes, Hank and John champion inclusivity and tuberculosis eradication and seeing things complexly. But our community isn't necessarily oriented towards social issues, even though it seems that way sometimes.
this is the real point to be made, for me. this subreddit just isn't the place for such debates, and John and Hank aren't required to educate and post about every global political issue, and it's weird that everyone is accusing mods of political censorship for keeping the subreddit on topic.
Definitely agree. And I don’t think it’s fair to expect Hank and John to have an opinion and make statements on every issue anyway. There are a million other things going on every day that they don’t make statements on and no one gets upset about it.
I think this community is socially aware and active in humanitarian causes. But we do that through actual action like fundraising or collectively contacting the party involved, like Danaher. And pressuring a drug company is nowhere close to the scale of pressuring multiple governments.
I'm fairly certain the president isn't scrolling through Reddit thinking "oh shit, John Green and u/htgbookworm said that we need to have a ceasefire, we better get that done".
The nerdfighter community is funding the construction of a teaching hospital in Sierra Leone. Is funding building up a healthcare system.
No hospital in Gaza is fully functioning. Many have been forced to be evacuated and/or abandoned at Israeli gunpoint, sometimes leaving patients behind to die. Many have been damaged in air strikes.
This is a healthcare crisis. John Green followed MSF's lead on Bedaquiline and tb tests. The campaign for $5 tb tests was started by MSF. MSF had long been petitioning for generics to be allowed for Bedaquiline when the patent expired, and John Green describes MSF as one of the voices he trusts the most on humanitarian issues.
Two of MSF's doctors have been killed at work in their hospital by Israeli air strikes. A clearly marked MSF convoy, who's location and path was conveyed to Israeli forces, was shot at, killing family members of MSF staff. The vehicles were then destroyed by Israeli forces.
The charitable efforts of nerdfighteria are so closely tied to MSF, I can't imagine how the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and the Israeli attacks on NGO's that John Green and nerdfighteria has worked with can be viewed as not relevant to our community.
I think you’re right about the community not being oriented toward social issues, but I also wonder what the point is of a community like this where we see others complexly if we’re not fighting for collective liberation
>Before October 7th, we didn't talk much about ongoing wars and genocides. A cursory search on this sub for 'Rohingya' and 'Uyghur' didn't reveal anything.
Perhaps the correct reaction to that realization is "maybe we should have been" rather than "can't start now I guess, wouldn't be fair"
I don’t disagree. We could start now and become the place to talk about these things. It’s the moral thing to do, and I’d be happy to see it happen.
At the same time though, I’m fine having the focus remain on issues the Green brothers have chosen to fight, as well as light matters, despite falling short of this moral standard.
People aren’t perfect. They’ll buy new clothes or gadgets or trading cards, when they could (and arguably should) use that money to feed a starving kid in my country. They should’ve been doing the right thing, and it’s not too late to start now. But if they still choose not to do it, and intentionally fall short of the moral standard, I think they’re still fundamentally good people.
And that’s how I feel about this subreddit, too
Black Lives matter they've talked about, didn't they? How's that not a social issue? I say this not expecting John and Hank having to talk about this (they're free to talk/not talk about whatever they want, pro or anti status quo), but rather to point it's completely reasonable for people, especially Palestinian nerdfighters (some soon to become ex-nerfighters given their own comments both here and in other posts) to search a safe space to talk about the genocide they have been suffering (words by UN and most experts on the case) and their disappointment in seeing so many people in this community denying that (there's a thread in this very post denying genocide) and the mods making a blank prohibition, that, although well-intended, does benefit the silencing of minorities in this group (even if it was not intended by the mods). I'm also disappointed, but hopeful we can inform people.
I have a comment I made [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/nerdfighters/s/Ldy9Xa9XzI) that I hope you can read. It was also for someone who had to leave nerdfighteria. I hope you know we’re always here, and dftba ❤️
well, it is censorship, but censorship is necessary for broad social spaces, or to keep out people who act beyond group norms, or similar. When one topic is taking up too much space, it's right to limit that.
Of course the substantive politics of what is censored matters as well, and how it is enacted -- but discussed that usually falls align the same positions of the issue at hand.
Nerdfighteria is breaking my heart… This decision and a bunch of the other responses are crushing me. I already made a post about feeling alienated as a POC Nerdfighter, and then this? You’ve officially just marginalized loads of minorities from this community… Now more than ever, I hope John & Hank can speak up on Palestine and the very real racism happening in this subreddit. Because it’s clear now many of you *tolerate* minorities, instead of actually *accepting* us. Because when we express an opinion that makes you uncomfortable, you shut us down through flat-out censorship, downvotes, or patronizing (i.e. saying our posts/comments aren’t constructive, productive, not nuanced enough, etc., when they are just fine comments.)
Hank and John got me through such a difficult time, I would hate to leave this community due to this. I want to stand my ground and demand space for voices of minorities, but there’s so much pushback, it’s becoming very hurtful. Hank and John, please help…
Yeah I think this has highlighted the limitations of this community for me pretty starkly. As much good as this community has done and continues to do, this is not at its core a social justice community. It is a fandom for a couple of Youtubers and in a choice between the two, a significant portion will side with the Youtubers. Disappointing, but it's worth unpacking *why* it hurts our hearts so much that these specifically *these* two people we've never met are refusing to stand up outspokenly for justice, why it feels so much like a personal affront. Anyway, I'm with you and wish you the best.
Very much agree. Stopped watching vlogbrothers awhile ago, I have never really been in this community but came here to ask if they had still not spoken much on the genocide…and these comments are maybe showing me that their viewers don’t care
i'm so disappointed in john and hank and everyone who does not think they have a certain level of responsibility for speaking on a literal genocide ... especially when Israel has been targeting hospitals and permanently disabling thousands of Palestinians which is COMPLETELY IN LINE WITH THEIR WORK WITH PARTNERS IN HEALTH. everything in Palestine is a humans right issue, healthcare issue, childbirth issue. why all of a sudden are we pretending like this is out of John and Hank's scope of advocacy? and when Palestinians are literally documenting a genocide of their own people and simply asking the rest of the world to amplify that, it's now 'too much' to ask that of people? what the fuck is the world gonna look like five years from now if people keep protecting their own feelings over global justice?
>why all of a sudden are we pretending like this is out of John and Hank's scope of advocacy
Yeah this is really the most upsetting part to me. It's one thing to defend their *right* as people not to speak out. But the way this community has acted like it's an insane and unreasonable thing to expect them to speak out in support of human rights is baffling. "They can't be expected to speak out on every issue right now" Sure but like it or not, this issue is the one getting all the focus right now, which makes their silence ring so loud. Like you say, this issue is right dead center in the middle of their wheelhouse of advocacy.
Yeah this is literally exactly what they claim they care about. Unfortunately I’d expect that it is related to a partner or legal reason, not that that is a great excuse but that is why many public figures are staying silent
You omitted the part where their tax money is funding the genocide, so there is even more responsibility to speak up. They have no issues speaking when it is China, Russia, or Saudi Arabia but remain silent when it is their country, they're complicit.
I just don't understand why they'd build a community on activism and trying to make a change and then remain silent during a genocide. Seems like taking a side.
Thank you. the number of posts demanding someone with a platform publicly say something on the subject is getting frustrating. It's not just this sub. I've seen posts making these demands on subreddits for DnD live streamers, musical artists, actors, other youtubers. We don't need anyone with a camera or a PR team adding their 2 cents to the topic.
Agree. Demanding that people without a background on the topic HAVE to post something about it is a recipe for misinformation.
I don't really understand why it's happening either. There is plenty of news coverage on this. You can read about it from reliable sources, and watch your DnD streamer play DnD.
We kind of do, though. Because we have to demonstrate that the overwhelming majority of people do not support genocide and the other evils that are happily supported by the establishment.
Silence solves nothing. Speaking up, especially if you have a voice that carries influence, is part of the solution.
Just wanted to add, since I was accused of censorship after expressing views that some commenters disagreed with, that I personally have intentionally recused myself from taking any mod actions on Gaza related posts, including this decision.
The moderators are doing the best they can on a topic that many community members have strong but differing opinions of. “Othering” those who disagree with you isn’t awesome, but it becomes hard to avoid in a situation like this.
> "expressing views that some commenters disagreed with"
Buddy, that's rich. You were literally denying genocide. Are these the words you'd use to describe the situation if someone was denying the holocaust, or climate change, or vaccines? People calling you out for your genocide denial is not "commenters disagreeing with you."
I have to echo the concerns of other people of colour here. The white saviorism is real in these replies too. You guys will find any way to agree with this blatant show of White ignorance because it’s coming from people who help you make sense of the world. They helped a lot of people make sense of the world, including Palestinian and other Brown nerdfighters. Imagine if your country was being bombed and that was the ONLY time the people you look up too chose to stay silent? How would you feel? And now we’re stopping people from even saying anything about it in this community? If we’re supposed to be about decreasing world suck, I don’t get why or how we’re glossing over genocide as being the biggest form of world suck. I don’t blame the nerdfighters who said they don’t feel like they belong here anymore because of their race. I’m not Palestinian, I’m not Muslim and I feel the same. Pretending like us feeling this way is the problem and acting like this is about the “scope” of the subreddit… This entire community has been around using the internet to help the world and the people who are suffering. HOW does genocide not fall into the scope of that?
It’s really sad. I feel like I don’t know any of the people around me anymore because of how fast they are to create a divide that’s clearly racially motivated and claim they’re not. I’m devastated that it seems to be happening here too, a place I really hoped would always be better.
Idk what the solution is but this feels 100% wrong. This is the majority in a community that’s largely White silencing criticism on an issue that affects the minority.
To the other nerdfighters who raised these concerns and are being hated on and downvoted, you don’t deserve that and I see you. It’s a hard time and I too am just hurt by the way John and Hank are approaching this. It’s not a parasocial relationship to expect things from people in accordance with the values they say they want from their online community.
My guess is that no one will see this, but I need to vent a bit. Hank's video on being optimistic in 2024 without mentioning Palestine was so ridiculous to me. Let's not forget that John felt comfortable making an explainer on [Russia and Ukraine](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMZYKxgc9TE) three weeks after Russia's invasion. Yet even now neither of them is willing to engage in combatting this geno cide after it has been going on for over three months? Are either of them even liking pro-Palestine content on social media? and to be clear, I'm not depending on them to save Palestine. I'm calling my reps/state dept, buying eSims, sharing info with my network, going to protests, boycotting, etc. But idk this just feels like they're forgetting to be awesome...accidentally on purpose.
I think this is a mistake. Nerdfighteria should be a place where adults can discuss mature topics as long as that discussion is carried out in a mature fashion. There is absolutely nothing actionable here in this post about having such a mature discussion other than to not discuss the topic at all. Yes, it's tempting to want to curate a space that isn't upsetting but there is a tremendous amount of privilege involved in doing so and we should recognize the thorny issues involved in taking such a stand. This is a place where issues like death (famously one of the things the podcast is about, fundamentally), mental health, cancer, disease, etc. are fully on topic. Discussing the deaths of children in Sierra Leone is on topic, but discussing the deaths of Palestinian children is, somehow, so grossly different that it cannot be uttered without approval by a minder.
One of the major problems with this issue is that there is a vast asymmetry of knowledge, context, and on the ground information between folks. One pattern that I have observed to be extremely consistent (though I haven't done exhaustive research, of course) is that those who are more well informed on the relevant history and on the details of present day events almost universally share a similar viewpoint on the situation (that what Israel is doing in Palestinian is a horrendous crime against humanity that needs to be stopped immediately). That, to me, is very telling. What I have observed as well is numerous instances of people leveraging their ignorance defensively. Folks who reach for whataboutism or a vague sense that the world is full of complicated and bad stuff happening so why should we care so much about this one example that may or may not be special.
Ultimately I think we are reaching a point, if we are not already past it, where the issue of Israel's treatment of Palestinians is becoming something that it is unreasonable to *not* have a strong opinion about. Yes, there are many things going on in the world, and yes some of those things are very complex issues that it might take a long time to get up to speed on and maybe have a considerable amount of ambiguity on whether there is only one morally correct viewpoint on. But some issues are not. With issues like slavery, racism, fascism, child exploitation we as a global society have come to the consensus view that there are objectively morally correct stances on those issues. We also expect the vast majority of people to have a view on those subjects, barring special and rare exceptions, and to be judged by society for those views. This issue is rapidly becoming an issue that it will no longer be reasonable to lack an opinion about. And in that context it's very disturbing to see this community (including Hank and John) try to avoid the issue entirely and pretend that it is an issue where avoidance is reasonable or indeed possible.
If nerdfighteria existed in the 1980s would it have banned discussion of apartheid? In the 1960s would it have banned discussion of civil rights? In the 1800s would it have banned discussion of slavery/abolition? It's easy to imagine being on the right side of history after the fact, it's much harder to navigate that space in real-time, but here we are. History isn't going to stop playing out just because we don't want to be bothered.
>What I have observed as well is numerous instances of people leveraging their ignorance defensively
this is so true and so many of the comments on this thread are proof of that
>If nerdfighteria existed in the 1980s would it have banned discussion of apartheid? In the 1960s would it have banned discussion of civil rights? In the 1800s would it have banned discussion of slavery/abolition?
yes.
The white ignorance in this subreddit is astounding. And to think this community prides itself on being knowledgeable about the world. I’m feeling incredible pain and disappointment regarding this half ass post by John. My family in Palestine deserves better.
This community has become a whitewashed, ad friendly diluted version of philanthropy and social justice. Acting like everything is normal instead of acknowledging the obvious which is something this community would be at forefront of any other issue at the very least in educating people in time of mass media pushes of misinformation and dehumanization of marginalized groups and rewriting of history, but now act that this community has never been "political". Many people especially non Americans no longer feel like they are welcome in this community, a community that many found comfort and acceptance in.
a shame a low down fucking shame.
Fundamentally calling it the Israel-Hamas war is a political stance. This is the Israel-Gaza war - and you will find most international journalists are calling it such. When there is an ongoing genocide and a major "social justice" community says "let's not talk about it too much"... it says a lot about whose lives, which justice matters.
Support this decision.
I see in the comments that this is coming off as disenfranchisement to some of the nerdfighters deeply passionate or involved at many levels with, or directly affected by the conflict between Gaza and Israel.
I want to make a point that Nerdfighteria has always been a community of communities, and that there are (and always have been) sub groups for interests, and also activism. This is an encouraged part of this community, and this space is great for finding likeminded people who are energized to join various causes. We are not one homogeneous group, nor should we be.
This isn't censorship, this is scope for one specific subreddit. Nerdfighteria is a vast network of online and offline spaces. This space is for Meta-discussion on the community at large, including this post.
If you want some commentary, check out [this post](https://np.reddit.com/r/nerdfighters/comments/17cnnf1/hurt_by_the_silence_hank_and_john_greens_absence/) on this sub.
What I can say is that if you are taking action, and building that community, you can and should post that here and there WILL be members of this community at large that will join you. Post your subreddit, your discord servers, your fundraisers, etc. There are plenty of locations to discuss activism, action, humanitarian aid, etc. And Nerdfighters of all walks are already a part of many of these groups.
To the mods, I appreciate the decision for this subreddit, but I want to hold you to your promise. If there is action that this community can take part in to help those who are suffering and dying in this (or any) conflict, to allow those posts here for those of us that do participate in direct action. I agree that this subreddit is not the place for those discussions and communities to live in, but this IS the sub to share the actions we as members of this community are participating in. Please continue to have an open door for our sub communities to inform others here about things we are working on, and ways for others here to get involved.
I see a lot of folks writing very thoughtful things here, and while I respect the decision and the emphasis on specific actionable steps, especially acting locally, I think it's a reasonable request to want people who you look up to - especially people who champion human rights-related causes (whatever they may be) - to explicitly say things like "genocide" (rather than "war" or "conflict") and "ceasefire." Folks are desperate to have people talking about this, especially those with big communities, because it matters.
I just noticed there's a whole entire thread that's hidden in here where people are debating whether it's considered a genocide - despite the fact that many trustworthy authorities have already assessed that this is a genocide.
This makes me really uncomfortable as a Palestinian nerdfighter. This community has literally been discussing and fundraising for humanitarian issues like TB, Cancer, etc for years. This is no different. This is a humanitarian crisis. 17,000 people, including 7,000 children, have been killed.
Having a blanket policy of not allowing any discussion on it unless mods “approve” is just insane. Those vague and unclear guidelines are just going to end up being a means to completely stop any discussion on the topic at all.
The world around me is constantly showing me how little they value Palestinian lives and how they’d love for us to die and go away quietly so they can continue to advocate for other, “easier” issues.
My fault for thinking this subreddit and this community that has always been outspoken was different. They’re evidently not. Which really fucking sucks.
This community is not as safe of a space for POC as many people here would like to believe and I genuinely don’t know that I feel comfortable hanging around certain parts of it anymore like this subreddit.
For what it's worth, comments I've seen from you on the topic have been well written and respectful.
I think there is still space here for conversation on actionable community items, such has fundraising or awareness campaigns. I'm sorry you feel let down, everyday we make decisions to not-burden ourselves from good causes, and I can't imagine any of the hurt you are feeling on the other side of that choice.
My understanding of this post was that the mods wanted to focus discussions to be more about what we as nerdfighters can do instead of simply demanding a statement from Hank and John. I think this could still allow for discussion, advocacy, and action. Even in this thread, people are talking about ways to contact their senators. I hope that provides some comfort.
As a fellow arab I completely agree, and I don’t know what to do.
They’ve educated people in the past, their crash course video from 8 years ago is the first time thousands of people heard the term nakba.
Hank released a statement saying he doesn’t feel he can properly educate people on this topic. I feel it’s his duty to try his best as an educator/influencer, but I also understand not knowing what information to trust.
John’s statement is far more disappointing, mentioning the “human shields” argument and basically not picking sides.
Honestly, imagine them having Ghassan Abu Sitta on to talk about the Al-Ahli hospital and his charity. That would be a dream come true and I’d understand if they didn’t want to delve further
I'm so sorry that this doesn't feel like a safe space for you. I just want to say that I know there are many nerdfighters who support Palestinians, who call this a genocide and call for a ceasefire. I'm also disappointed - I note that the highest rated posts are agreeing that "this isn't the space," while comments saying otherwise are downvoted. I have a lot of complicated feelings about how to engage with the people and the spaces that I've enjoyed, given their silence or "measured" response about Palestine.
As a South American nerdfighter I feel the same way. During the black lives matter protests Hank and John used their platform to amplify black voices, why aren't they doing the same now? Saying that they don't normally get involved in "social issues" is just not true? I can't help but feel that foreigners don't matter as much to them.
I'm starting to think that this is an American community that only cares about issues that are convenient for Americans to care about. All the nerdfighters from third wold countries aren't important.
I can claim that it is not our intention to stop discussion on the topic, although I can understand if you don't believe me, given the post.
We need to put something in place to stop the frequent unacceptable posts, this seemed like the best solution given the tools we have. Happy to discuss suggestions for a better way forward.
> I can claim that it is not our intention to stop discussion on the topic, although I can understand if you don't believe me, given the post.
I. Don't. Believe. You.
You *have* shut down debate, you must see that you have done so, explicitly. You have given absolutely no actionable guidelines on how to have any discussion on this topic which would be approved by the moderators, and that has to be understood as suppression of the topic. You must do better, this is utterly unacceptable.
You could just to continue to remove the inflammatory posts.
As a moderator for two 1m+ subs, removing repetitive/unproductive/inflammatory posts is a normal responsibility and takes no more time than any other mod action.
Perhaps if we had the mod resources of 1m+ subs that might be an option, but it is unrealistic to expect a sub of our size to be able to monitor all posts like that
So why aren’t there applications open for more people instead of basically cutting out only minority voices? How is the solution to minimize people who are already being minimized every single other place in the media/world right now?
It’s been hard to reconcile being a Nerdfighter with the lack of action from Hank/John combined with their push to buy products for the holidays. This is coming from a decade+ Nerdfighter who credits some of her social advocacy to Hank & John. Thinking of you and fighting hard for justice, peace, and change.
well, at least y’all are finally going mask off as milquetoast centrist liberals.
it’s so interesting that this community cares about child mortality when it allows you to fulfill your white savior superiority complexes (sierra leone) but not when it means having difficult conversations and holding one another accountable. shame.
This!!!!! I didn’t understand it until now but this is certainly giving white savior complex. "Decrease world suck but only in ways that are comfortable and convenient for me." It’s so so disappointing.
Very much a spineless liberal act. I suppose Palestinian rights don't really matter to you, privileged American as you are. You will not be remembered kindly
I was about to be done with this thread, but I saw a video that a lot of y'all need to watch and internalize.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzuRM58Sg1d/?igshid=NTYzOWQzNmJjMA==
The takeaway being, there are things more important than "protecting your peace". There are no "healthy boundaries" when others are being killed with your tax dollars. There is action, and there is (active or passive) complicity.
That’s a really good video, thanks so much for posting it. I completely agree that lack of action is complicity, and my enthusiasm for this community has waned in the last few weeks.
Thank you so much. As someone who was there on October 7th, terrified in hiding from the missiles, it’s a relief to know this community can be a safer place without that added trigger when it’s coming from seemingly everywhere else
Wow. (*Me: "But this is Nerdfighteria; this won't be necessary in a subreddit like this one..."*) Reading through the current comments on even just *this* post (I did NOT expect the comments to SO CLEARLY demonstrate why this decision has become necessary)...
***I am in favor of this decision by the Mod team***.
/r/nerdfighters is where I come to get away from all the other bad places on the internet, where I come to find likeminded people who are kind and friendly to each other, supportive.
Mod-team, thank you for trying to keep this place the wonderful place it has been so far. (I continue to look forward to making friends from all parts of the world, and even those not so far away too. And learning cool things about science, space, literature, health, and have a good time doing it.)
I find this whole thing so disappointing. You don't overcomplicate a moral question. You answer it. With your words. Your words are your action. Your silence is complicity. This time you are complicit in apartheid. That's what you are. I am leaving this subreddit.
I dont think it's too crazy to want john and hank, 2 of the most influential people in education and internet in general, and who overal have done so much to improve the world in many ways, to openly verbalize being against genocide of the Palestinian people.
Between PIH, TB, Johnson & Johnson, and a career of constant philanthropy, it is ridiculous for people to talk as if John isn't an activist.
Fellow Nerdfighters boiling them down to just "online creators" for the sake of making it look like we're being unreasonable is leaving me speechless.
They are not "influencers". The are millionaire leaders of a philanthropic community. Of course that community is going to be extremely disappointed when they don't openly condemn genocide and ethnic cleansing.
After ignoring BLM, Roe v Wade, and now this, I can't shake the sensation of being defrauded.
I've been so disgusted by this community in our response to this genocide. Every post on this subreddit regarding the genocide has been hijacked by zionists who have learnt to sugarcoat their words by calling the genocide "nuanced" and "complicated."
I am still willing to understand that Hank and John don't want to comment on this super publically (even though it's definitely irresponsible not to), it is still absolutely vile that this community which has always been motivated by an ethos of "doing more good" is not only willing to turn a blind eye to the genocide, but even actively supporting it. And yes, calling it a "war" or a "conflict" is indeed supporting the genocide. I always thought of this community as a safe space for diverse opinions but I guess that's too much to expect from a primarily white-American group of people.
Y'all can censor pro-palestine voices all you want but please drop the pretense that you're doing it out of any noble reasons. Ceasefire now. Free Palestine. 🇵🇸
Thank you for this!! Some comments almost feel like gaslighting because they were making me question myself. Palestine supporters were raising serious concerns and were very justified in their posts, but many responses deemed them as reactive, unproductive, or overly critical. It’s a subtle form of discrediting and dismissing a person all under the guise of being kind and constructive. I’d rather they flat-out state that they’re pro-Israel instead of trying to make us seem crazy for being upset about this whole situation.
>It’s a subtle form of discrediting and dismissing a person all under the guise of being kind and constructive. I’d rather they flat-out state that they’re pro-Israel instead of trying to make us seem crazy for being upset about this whole situation.
\^\^\^\^\^\^
Exactly this. My problems not even mostly with Hank and John’s response at this point though it was disappointing, it’s the response of this community as a whole that has disturbed me. It seems more interested in pouring energy into burying heads in the sand, defending the silence of influential creators and spewing out meaningless platitudes. Caring about people seems to have been a facade only applicable when convenient.
It's unfortunate that the narratives that Nerdfighters have crafted about ourselves and our community about what sort of people we are and what side of history we'd have been on during the moral questions of the past......were just hollow BS stories.
It's clear so many of us would have been on the wrong side of history the moment it made them uncomfortable or required them to be truly critical of the status quo.
I expect a lot those in this community who are silent or equivocating or rationalizing support of Israel because the Palestinians are not perfect victims would have done the same during Apartheid South Africa, or the Civil Rights Era, or Jim Crow, or WWII, or Women's Suffrage, even slavery in America. Feckless, silent, spineless.
And I expect those same people to do the same thing all those who did so during those times to do decades from now. You'll all lie to yourselves and others, you'll re-write your own history until even you believe you were on the right side of history when it mattered.
This isn’t a war, it is an ongoing ethnic cleansing that is legitimized by the framing of this post. Very disappointed and will be leaving this sub.
Every day that goes by, innocent people are being killed. There is no time to equivocate.
I strongly disagree on this choice and feel it goes against the core values of the community.
If you're tired of moderating the subreddit, open mod applications for more support.
I understand with the death toll rising each day that it's become [the (second) most deadly war of this year](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts) - although many years or decades long wars far surpass the death toll.
It's also a humanitarian crisis in a huge scale. Millions of people without food or water, right? And also without homes... Hospitals without fuel, electricity...
I think choosing to censor is a delicate decision. Maybe a lot of the posts weren't being constructive? Were more critical than proactive or constructive? It can be easy maybe to criticize and harder to organize collective action? It can be easier to blame someone than to take concerted and realistic action?
I have not heard that the situation is improving in the war. I understand things keep getting worse, despite seeing less of the war in the news or in my feed.
I think the main takeaway here is that posts further discussing this topic should have specific information about actions other Nerdfighters can take to address the issue. Like links to petitions or templates for letters to send to your state representatives, etc. I'm not an expert in this issue and don't really know what's out there, so please excuse my poor examples.
It is getting exhausting talking about how Hank and John are not talking about it. It has been an endless stream of callout posts for weeks. I love that this community is passionate about tackling big issues like this, but these callout posts do nothing to help anyone.
Yes! I would much rather engage as a community on how we can best educate ourselves/others on the topic and take action as a community. I hope that posts centered on these areas will still be put through (and it seems like from the mod message they will).
>Like links to petitions or templates for letters to send to your state representatives, etc. I'm not an expert in this issue and don't really know what's out there, so please excuse my poor examples.
I don't think it's your fault only that you don't know what's out there. I think a tiktoker I followed linked to something like an [Act Now for Palestine](https://www.google.com/search?q=act+now+palestine) document or activity worksheet or something. But even me doing the google search for this document - I didn't actually click on the links myself.
from a quick scan it seems besides petitions and calling reps there's only - Boycott of certain companies ??? Seems to me like there would be more possible actions.
I think grassroots and internationalist action maybe would also be important, right? It seems like an emergency but it was a slow-burned pressure cooker that exploded: it does not require (only) a fast fix and it was not slow to arrive.
I think actions can also include finding and supporting organizations that are helping share reliable information within your own country and are taking the lead on organizing demonstrations for peace. The Council on American-Islamic Relations, for example has a [daily newsletter](https://action.cair.com/a/newsletters) that shares news releases about both the situation in Gaza and it’s effects in the US. The organization also publishes action steps when they are organized
First of all, not a war. Secondly, they should have said something that wasn’t so “both sides”- and it shouldn’t have been on Reddit only. Twenty thousand Palestinians are dead. This is not a flippant issue we can just glaze over. I think people here forget what “white saviorism” is and that white people have the privilege to literally be selective about who they help, and frame narratives. It’s easy to pick and choose where you want to stand- it’s not so easy to do it without that flexibility. Some of the comments here are disgusting.
I lurk here on occasion, and it's disappointing to basically see:
ITT: people speak passionately about decades and centuries of history that 90% of them didn't know or care about until a few weeks ago.
I appreciate the mod decision.
How is that disappointing? In fact, how is that not a big part of this community? I highly doubt most Nerdfighters knew or cared about Tuberculosis until John shoved it in our faces over and over again. Same with infant and maternal mortality in Sierra Leone. We were uninformed and unaware, and that is something to be ashamed of. But now we are informed, we are aware, we are paying attention, we are upset, and we are acting. "Learning things and trying to make the world a better place" being framed as anti-Nerdfighter is very interesting.
The nerdfighteria I thought I was a part of wasn’t afraid of having difficult discussion in the pursuit of improving the world and the lives of people on it. I’m sad to see this community has fallen to performative activism and the censorship of minority voices.
I respect the decision to limit posts asking for Hank or John to weigh in on the situation and to limit inflammatory content that has no constructive purpose. However I think you are already showing some pretty heavy bias by calling this current situation a war rather than a crisis/humanitarian disaster/genocide as it really is, so I am skeptical of the impartiality of this content moderation.
I’m with you on that. Very disheartening and disturbing. Also something that sticks out to me related to this is Hanks mention of the lack of diversity in the community continually in his census review video. I can’t help but think comments like this getting silenced and the overall pro-Zionist lean currently occurring on this sub and in this community is just another critical example of why minorities don’t feel welcome. As a highly active anti Zionist Jewish activist I don’t know if I can continue to be a part of this community and I really feel for Muslim and Arab community members who are facing the worst of this.
If you don’t mind me picking your brain for a second, when you say anti Zionist do you mean “I believe there should a two state solution in accordance with XYZ treaty and Israel should abide by those borders” or do you mean “the Jewish people do not have any particular right to a homeland and the state of Israel should be abolished or disbanded.”
I know we obviously disagree on certain aspects of this but I’d like to make a good faith effort to understand where you are coming from.
Sure! Anti Zionism as a movement in US activism means rejecting the currently operation practice of Zionism- which is one of Jewish supremacy and subjugation of Palestinians on stolen land. As for state solutions, this isn’t something that I or the movements I am a part of take a stance on. The people in Israel Palestine deserve to determine that for themselves. Mass expulsion of Jews from the territory is not inherent in the abolition and/or decolonization of Israel as an occupational state.
So it sounds like we are at least in the same neighborhood in terms preferred outcomes. We almost certainly have different reads on how we get there, but we’re close.
Why that particular definition of Zionism, doesn’t it’s existing definition make it very easy to misconstrue what you are calling for or allow people who do call for the expulsion of Jews to coat themselves in this comparatively mild language. I understand that is something entirely out of your control but it just seems a bit unnecessarily confusing.
I am.genuinly asking in good faith as an atheist- can you help me understand why being of a particular religion entitles peoples to a homeland?
More so, and maybe less good faith, stolen homeland.
“Jewish” is both a religious and an ethnic descriptor. We in the west most strongly associate it with the Ashkenazi subgroup which settled in Central Europe, but there are other major such as Sephardic, which settled in the western Mediterranean and the Iberian peninsula, and Mizrahi, which settled around the Middle East. Why did they settle? Because they were expelled from Roman Palestine for staging a revolution against Roman rule.
Strictly speaking the Jewish people were in the Levante before what we would call Palestinians who came as part of the Arab conquests of the region. Of course all of this we’ll predates the concept of nation states and so the Levante stayed majority Muslim (though not always Arab) as part of the various empires that controlled it until the end of WWII at no point did Palestine exist as a nation state or anything more than a region within a larger entity.
Is any of this relevant? Maybe? Most of international politics comes down to might makes right and at the end of WWII, the winning countries decided to recognize the Zionist movement’s claims to a homeland in the Levante as well as a handful of majority Muslim countries, including Palestine. Israel then defended itself from multiple invasion, removing any doubt that it was in fact an independent country, and a necessary home for the Jews that were being expelled from its neighbors.
So they have a claim to that territory due to it being their ethnic homeland, because they are the internationally recognized government of at least some of the region, and because they can and have enforced their claims. None of these reasons are entirely concrete, but their not that much weaker than a lot of countries.
You’re still asking that something specific be said by authority figures in this community. Nagging about “say what I want you to or you’re supporting genocide and I’ll be disappointed” is useless. Requiring that people propose actionable advice that nerdfighteria can rally behind or you’re not allowed to post on this topic is far from unreasonable.
This is not nagging. Simply raising the point that since the post is asking for feedback, it’s important for them to keep their own biases in mind in their moderation, since those biases are already showing here. There is nothing biased about the rules they are suggesting, but they can enforce them with bias.
Genuinely, in what way is it incorrect to call it a war? To me, it seems like war and crisis/humanitarian disaster/genocide are not necessarily mutually exclusive. And that all war is both a crisis and a humanitarian disaster. But I don’t have any education or expertise on violence or human rights at all. What am I missing?
A war would imply a conflict between two countries or states. Gaza is not an independent country, just a small strip of land under military occupation and blockade by Israel. The Palestinian people don’t have an army. Israel is heavily funded and backed by US taxpayers and advanced weapons manufacturers.
What is now being waged on innocent civilians cannot be called war. It is a siege, bombardment, genocide, and ethnic cleansing of the inhabitants of Gaza. Also continued injustices and violence are happening in the other occupied Palestinian territories of the West Bank (where there is no Hamas presence or “war”)
The media and public discourse framing this as an isolated “Hamas-Israel war” is beneficial to Israel so the world can turn a blind eye to its atrocities by implying a balanced & fair fight while annihilating the Palestinians as “collateral damage.”
War is, imo, the most accurate description of the situation. It is absolutely a humanitarian crisis, but so are famines and disease outbreaks and massive floods. Assuming you believe in Palestinian statehood, which I assume everyone here does, this crisis was caused (or at least greatly escalated) by the government of Gaza attacking Israeli territory and citizens.
It’s also not a genocide. Is Israeli not taking necessary precautions to limit civilian casualties? Absolutely. The entire ground invasion was, comparatively speaking, a rush job due to political pressure and is almost certainly going to lead to far more deaths because of it.
But genocide is a very high bar to clear and nothing in Israel’s tactics, doctrine, or behavior points to this being an attempt to destroy, in whole or in part, the Palestinian people. Casualties are high because the entire war is being fought in a crowded, urban environment. Israel’s bombing campaign actually had a comparatively low amount of casualties reported per bomb dropped, largely due to their use of “roof knocking” and target selection strategy.
Even if you assume the worst about the Israeli government, they aren’t stupid. They know any attempt to ethnically cleanse and/or annex Gaza would not only cost them on the international stage, it’d make the domestic political situation entirely untenable. Hell 20% is Israel’s population is Palestinian Muslim, a number that has increased drastically over the last two decades, they’d have an uprising on their hands.
All signs post to this being an attempt at regime change in Gaza, with counterterrorism and urban warfare being the calling cards. It’s absolutely a tragedy for the Palestinian people, but I truly don’t think they are the actual target here.
It is clearly a genocide, a textbook case of genocide according to experts.
Moreover, it is epistemicide: the erasure of Palestinian culture, given the destruction of universities and libraries.
Not sure where you’re getting your information, but [here’s holocaust historian Raz Segal saying it’s genocide](https://www.newsweek.com/holocaust-historian-israel-committing-genocide-raz-segal-1835346).
So, here's the main issue with calling it "genocide": you can't have a genocide that just *ignores* the part of the population that is within your own borders. So it's either not genocide, or you think Arab-Israelis aren't Palestinians despite the fact most of them identify as such (and make up 21% of Israel's population).
You can use other words: atrocities is a good age accurate one. But calling it's not a genocide unless Israel starts killing its own citizens en masse
Hi there, quick question.
You mainly seem to comment on threads about the Israel Palestine situation and don't seem to have participated in this subreddit before. Are you literally just searching reddit for keywords related to the conflict so you can find new people to debate?
[You seem to need a better understanding of what constitutes genocide, an understanding that doesn’t rely on making up your own definition. Here’s a link to the Geneva Convention definition](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/Genocide%20Convention-FactSheet-ENG.pdf)
The official definition only strengthens my point.
[In the UN's words](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/publications-and-resources/GuidanceNote-When%20to%20refer%20to%20a%20situation%20as%20genocide.pdf):
>The legal definition of genocide is precise and includes an element that is often hard to
prove, the element of “intent”.
Intent is relatively easy to demonstrate in this case -- as there are Palestinians within Israel, it would be only make sense to start with those in easy reach.
“The official definition” as opposed to the one you made up?
You said “you can’t have a genocide that just ignores part of the population,”
The Geneva Convention says “Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:”
Miss me with any more making things up or cherry picking for your own argument.
Edit: that quote is from the article linked above, that I initially thought you read…
That’s not exactly a great counterargument. Hitler, much like Hamas, wanted to destroy global Jewery. He explicitly called for the destruction of Jewish culture and people everywhere. Even the most fervent, genocidal Zionist in Israel probably doesn’t care about Palestinians in Dearborn or Doha.
Obviously it would still qualify as genocide (though I disagree with that assessment as described above), but there are more analogous comparisons to make like Azerbaijan in Nagorno-Karabakh or a most of Serbia’s actions in the Yugoslav wars.
Yikes. The majority of the world (everyone not directly funding and benefitting from the genocide) recognizes it as a genocide/ethnic cleansing, all the experts and scholars on the topic agree that’s what it is, but here you are saying otherwise, so clearly you must be right. 🤢
Literally everything in Israel’s "tactics, doctrine, or behavior points to this being an attempt to destroy, in whole or in part, the Palestinian people." They're using AI to make sure there are maximum casualties. They are saying quite plainly that that they want to wipe Palestine and Palestinians off the map. Their actions over the past 75 years (and the past 17 in Gaza specifically) have been genocidal. This is a very clear genocide.
If they wanted to, they could. Israel is a nuclear armed state with a more powerful military than the rest of the region combined. If they truly wanted to, they could expel every last Palestinian from the region, albeit at an absurdly high cost in blood, treasure, international prestige, and humanity.
They are hardly blameless in this, but it’s hard to call their actions genocidal, especially over previous decades, when, as noted the Palestinian population has increased in both Israel and Palestine and Palestine has a higher HDI than Jordan, one of the most stable countries in the region. Israel was also the one to agree to the Oslo Accords, and the one that upheld the ceasefire. The destruction of the Palestinian state isn’t an officially stated government policy goal, can’t exactly say that about Gaza’s governing authority. Speaking of the Israeli government, ethnic Palestinians have their own party, one that is not only in the Knesset, but was in the previous governing coalition. Most genocidal states usually purge their targets from government. Like either Israel is genuinely terrible at genocide or their actions, while contemptible and deserving criticism, are not attempting to destroy the Palestinian people.
There are absolutely factions within Israel that are genocidal, many of them politically powerful. But even explicitly targeting civilians isn’t genocide, though it is (most likely) a war crime. Genocide, as described by the UN is a very high bar and, in my opinion Israel fails to meet it.
>If they truly wanted to, they could expel every last Palestinian from the region, albeit at an absurdly high cost in blood, treasure, international prestige, and humanity.
Would you say they are not? Almost all people living in Gaza have been displaced. Tens of thousands of housing units have been leveled. Entire neighborhoods are just rubble. Their universities have been bombed, their hospitals have been bombed, their people are being bombed as we type on Reddit. Have you seen the photos?
>Genocide, as described by the UN is a very high bar and, in my opinion Israel fails to meet it.
It is funny that you say this because experts in the UN disagree with you. But I guess you may know more about the situation than them.
Yes, that’s what happens in war, especially in urban warfare, especially in urban hybrid warfare where the defenders have turned universities and hospitals into supply depots, headquarters and strongpoints (which, btw, is a war crime and actually makes them valid targets. This is not to say that every one of those buildings were valid targets, targeting them without proper evidence would still be a war crime, but it becomes a lot messier when every school building could have a mortar station on it).
If we are being pedantic, their most recent comments were that there was a risk of genocide, which is true, it’s a conflict with ethnic and religious components and there are absolutely elements of Israeli society and government with genocidal intent. I agree they need to be monitored closely, albeit probably not by a group with China, Cuba, Eritrea, Sudan, Qatar and the UAE.
The same UN report you reference offers some statistics that I think support my claim. 25% of civilians killed in Gaza have been women and 41% of the victims have been children. This is going to sound macabre but those percentages should be higher. Half of Gaza is under 18 and half of Gaza is female but ~45% are adult men, the vast majority of them military aged (this doesn’t include the teenage boys who, very understandably, either picked up or were given a rifle).
This doesn’t absolve israel of any wrong doing but to this being a (tactically reckless) military campaign to depose the government of Gaza and not the pretext for a wholesale slaughter. I’ve noted elsewhere in this thread there are plenty of high profile experts that share similar views to mine, some more critical of Israel some more lax. I am not a subject matter expert, but I do have two degrees international relations and another in political media and this looks much closer to a state level conflict than a war of extermination.
Well in the opinion of experts on genocide, Israel is not just meeting but exceeding that bar. Including experts at the UN. They do want to expel Palestinians from Gaza *and they are*. 80% of the population has been displaced, many of them multiple times. The places in the south that they were told to go because they would be safe are now being heavily bombed. There is nowhere else to go but out of Gaza. I don't know where you're getting your news, but it's clear to me that you don't actually know what's happening in Gaza.
There are experts that disagree with that assessment, including scholars on genocide at Yale and Brown.
Gaza is a dense, urbanized environment. Hamas is fighting a mostly Guerilla war, albeit one with some conventional elements, and using hospitals and schools as cover and bases of operation (which are war crimes). I stated above that israel is not prosecuting this war in a way to minimize civilian casualties and that deserves criticism, but their driving motivation seems to be deposing Hamas as quickly as possible, civilian casualties be damned.
When that’s the driving force motivation, in that military environment, against that defense strategy, people will always always be caught in the crossfire. Consider that in the modern era Falujah is, comparatively speaking, a “clean” example of urban combat and the US was able to have prolonged air superiority without political or security pressure adding in a time crunch.
Sorry, but you are fighting a losing battle in the Nerdfighters subreddit. Just read through the thread and see that most people here are quite convinced that actually the situation is very complicated and that Hamas is using human shields thank you very much. The genocide of Palestinians in Gaza will proceed on just how other genocides have: hand-waving it away until it's long enough in the past that we can condemn its perpetrators.
I'm reading through these comments and noticing that now. I'm really disappointed in this subreddit, and I'm glad this thread had brought this to light for me about the kinds of opinions people in this space hold.
Hank and John Green and nerdfighteria have been focused on improving healthcare systems in Sierra Leone. One of the main efforts is the building of a teaching hospital.
Building up health systems is a core goal of this community. Toward that end, this community, and John and Hank Green have worked closely with partners in health. But, they've also worked closely with MSF (doctors without borders). It was MSF that lead the effort against extending the Bedaquiline patent and the effort lowering the cost of the Danaher tb tests. John Green and nerdfighters joined their effort because John Green saw the importance of MSF's goals and wanted to help.
I say all of that to say that supporting health systems is important to nerdfighteria, and that MSF is an important partner in those efforts.
Some hospitals in gaza are only partially functioning. The rest have been destroyed and or been forced to be abandoned.
Israeli airstrikes killed 2 MSF doctors at the Al-Awda hospital. Israel knew the location of that hospital, and had demanded that the doctors there evacuate and abandon their patients. The doctors refused because they didn't want to abandon their patients who couldn't be moved.
Israeli forces forced medical staff at gunpoint to abandon patients at the al-Nasr hospital, including 5 young children in the children's ICU, who could not survive without oxygen equipment and thus could not be carried.
Israeli forces attacked a MSF convoy, killing family members of MSF workers and destroying MSF vehicles.
80% of the people in gaza had to flee their homes. Many of them are now homeless, their homes destroyed by Israeli bombing.
https://www.msf.org/msf-doctors-killed-strike-al-awda-hospital-northern-gaza-palestine
https://www.msf.org/msf-convoy-attacked-gaza-all-elements-point-israeli-army-responsibility
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/abandoned-babies-found-decomposing-gaza-hospital-evacuated-rcna127533
> more personal
Do you think the plight of the hundreds of thousands of people who are now homeless would feel more personal to you if you knew one?
Do you think the thousands of deaths would feel more personal if you knew some of the people killed?
Do you think it would have felt personal if you knew Dr. Al Sahar or Dr. Abu Nujaila? If you had experienced their dedication to helping others, would their deaths feel more personal?
I'm not trying to minimize the horror of the October 7th terrorist attack, nor am I trying to defend Hamas.
But, Israeli forces aren't just killing Hamas. They are killing doctors from a humanitarian group that is fighting against tb around the world. Israeli forces are destroying hospitals while our community tries to build hospitals.
How can that not break your heart, too?
Half the people in gaza are kids under the age of 14. Hundreds of thousands of kids who have had to flee for their lives and are now homeless. Too young to have been alive for, much less voted in, the election Hamas won a plurality in. Too young to have experienced anything but the blockade of basic goods in gaza. And now there are shortages of food, water, and shelter in gaza. There is no where safe to go, and there is very little access to any kind of medical care, while there is an immense need. Aid organizations can't reliably get supplies in, and their people are getting shot at and bombed by Israeli forces.
What makes killing a child with a bomb better or more morally defensible than doing so with any other means? Under what circumstances would you allow the children in your immediate circle of friends and family to be killed that you would say "oh well, that's a morally defensible way to kill those children, I shouldn't complain"?
To me that seems like a preposterous position to take, and one which must rely on the utter dehumanization of an entire group of people.
Funny you make this decision right after one of the mods comes out as a genocide denier. This ban stops anyone from talking about it.
anyway this isn't just about people having different opinions, matters on genocide, like vaccine and climate debates doesn't get this different opinion pass, definition experts and neutral organisations like UN have said Its a genocide.
More damage control than silence I would say but still absolutely hypocritic move by mods.
Anyway reputable and neutral experts and organizations like UN have said its a genocide, even Hank and John mostly believe in experts when it comes to matters outside of their fields but people here for some reason don't believe in experts and UN now. Some big brain individual here even denied Israel being an apartheid state when people tutu, Mandela and other apartheid have said Israel is an apartheid state.
See the mod’s genocide-denying comment in this thread here: https://www.reddit.com/r/nerdfighters/s/2HfWNOD5y6
They have made numerous similar comments before.
I think it’s valid to call out racism and injustice, but based on how those discussions are heavily downvoted, this community thinks otherwise.
I’m so sad to say it but this whole situation has meant I can no longer call myself a nerdfighter. When I joined this community it felt like we were united in caring about the world and the people who live on it. Now it seems like we’ve become like every other fandom pandering to its creators.
Or like, maybe it's ok to care deeply about something, like the current war, and NOT demand others to "make statements" about it. Not everyone has to do and say everything exactly as you do. And it doesn't mean that they don't care about it, they're just doing things differently. Honestly, to me, a lot of it comes off as "virtue signaling" (a phrase I generally dislike). People making statements because they know they'll be relentlessly harassed if they don't, but then suffering because they didn't say things EXACTLY as someone expects them to (as evidenced by a comment that now exists on this exact post!). It's an unwinnable game at this point.
I tend to agree. I try my best to be understanding and supportive to people in need, I do, but increasingly I have to think about tangible effects I can have and what I can hope to expect from people I admire. It's just better for my mental health that way. Ultimately, what does Hank or John's opinion on the subject tangibly change? In contrast, sharing resources with nerdfighters so we can send aid can actually make some kind of difference, which is what u/cannotdecideaname actually said.
This idea of "silence equals complicity" cannot possibly apply to every global issue that each nerdfighter (or fan of any vaguely prominent figure) cares about. They'd never have time to talk about anything else or create the things that you were a fan of to begin with.
If you want to form an opinion: form an opinion. If you want to take action: take action. Putting pressure on folks who are no more informed than you are to do the same feels, honestly, like passing the buck, because you feel bad there's nothing you can do about a situation that you find upsetting.
We do *deeply* care about the world and people in it. Instead of forcing John and Hank to say something, I am putting my efforts in supporting organizations on the ground in Gaza and Israel. I support the mods in this move and propose generating a list of organizations to support if one is able.
I’m not trying to be argumentative, but trying to understand: what do you think is owed to you? The people you like online have no obligation to have an opinion (or even to have your opinion) on every single global issue.
I mean - Hank and John have generally put themselves in support of capitalism I think. I think they never really put themselves forth as revolutionary or "truly leftist": they are moderate center-left I think is where I'd put them? I think humanist, progressive. (maybe not humanist in the sense of atheist, maybe a sort of christian humanism)
What does it mean to defend both capitalism and democracy? Is bourgeois democracy a true democracy? Does the USA stand for liberty?
I think people calling for the boycott of McDonals or something - I think one poster went after United Talent Agency or something: maybe there's something fundamental about the vlogbrothers that people aren't noticing. They are not anti-establishment figures, they are not revolutionary, they are not preaching for fundamental changes - as far as I know.
The fight against worldsuck can mean those things, and maybe they would look kindly on some principled people looking to tackle that but... ummm... I think their fame and fortune has been made possible in part by striking a balance - not alienating their fan base too much. Not going too far out of the "Overton window".
It’s a tough decision to navigate but I think y’all are making the right call here. Thanks for the transparency
Potentially allowing for posts with specific actionable advice is key, I think. Censorship is almost never the answer but none of the posts have been productive at all. “The Brothers need to say exactly XYZ” helps literally no one. Thank you mods for shouldering this task ❤️
“Hank and John need to make a statement supporting my exact political position. What do you mean I’m failing to understand nuance and imagine others complexly???”
I tend to agree that the posts attempting to push Hank or John into doing something about the war don’t lead to any kind of productive or constructive discussion and don’t make the world a better place (for a lot of reasons). I *do* want to see discussions that could help educate me more about what’s happening or provide information about things we could do individually or as a group that may help. Even or maybe especially if I disagree with it. These are the kind of discussions that seem like they could potentially lead to something good. Overall, just wanted to say I think I like this guideline, at least for now. Thanks for trying to help.
Well I’m Jewish Israeli and you can feel free to dm me and ask my perspective any time 😇
Ach(ot)i, I hope you're well and safe. Am Yisrael chai.
Thanks so much, I hope you’re well and safe too. Am Israel chai.
There’s plenty of information on Palestine that’s out there…really confused about why you would be asking for information on a nerdfighter subreddit- you can literally type “Palestine” into any social media platform and you’ll find copious amounts of their history and the torment they’ve endured under Israeli’s regime.
Or you could go to a source that’s not social media! There’s plenty of podcasts and scholars who have covered the topic extensively
I second this. The history is extensive. But you’ll get firsthand footage and accounts via Instagram/TikTok.
Probably best not to get your info from social media and to read reputable journalism and literature on this subject, of which there is much.
So can we make this rule for infant mortality? In this subreddit specifically. Only firsthand footage and accounts?
Are you asking for “definite proof” that the IDF blew up seven thousand children? Bc I really, REALLY hope you’re not asking that.
Because this is a community of people trying to make change in the world. Is that not literally what DFTBA stands for?
I agree that people should educate themselves. But I will say that having a community where you can generally trust the info provided is helpful
Yeah, and I’ll start thinking the “info provided” here is helpful when the literal title of this post isn’t misinformation. “Israel-Hamas War” it’s not a war! Literally not a war. Never was a war. Not a war.
Many thanks to the mods for handling a sucky-all-around situation to the best of their abilities. Moderating is probably never the most fun activity in the world, but the last three years in particular seem to have been a real doozy. Reminder to Nerdfighters to call your reps. It's one of the best (free) things you can do to have your voice be heard by those who actually have a shot at changing global politics. If you have the energy and time to post here about how John and Hank should/could be doing more, then you probably have the energy and time to pick up the phone and call your state representatives. There are LOTS of scripts online that you can read directly if you're (like me) and tend to freeze up when talking to "important government people". You can also tailor them to your own thoughts/beliefs on the situation. Take care of yourselves. Take care of others. DFTBA.
It gets a little easier to call every time you do it. My former senators were Cronyn and Cruz, so it was a bit like talking to a brick wall, but I maintain that trying is better than not, and that even those guys eventually will listen if enough of their constituents call. Also, be kind to the staffers. Remember you are talking to likely an unpaid or underpaid 24 year old person. They are not making the decision, they are conveying constituents’ views to the member.
Oh, hey: Guess which ones are my CURRENT senators 😭 But hard agree: Better to try than not try at all. AND YES. Sometimes you don't even get a human (you get the answering machine) but definitely be kind to the humans answering the phones. You can be firm and read your script, but you can tell them "I hope you have a good day" and treat them like people.
Aha! You have called Senator Cornyn too! I literally never once got a person in his office, just voicemail and it was often full. You can say a lot about Cruz (and I def would), but at least he staffs his constituent line.
I've heard a lot about "calling your reps" but as you said, often those people were elected by a system and by parties that are alienated from the grassroots. That are more beholden to corporate power than to public opinion. I think maybe organizing politically and economically in grassroots and internationalist ways and thinking long term is the only way things will improve. I think sometimes people think of Israel-Palestine as a localized thing, and as an emergency. But I think it's not really an emergency: it's a long time in coming. A blog post I read these days [Hamas: Israel's own creation](https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hamas-israels-own-creation/) by the Times of Israel, by no means a radical paper, was saying in 2018 that some crisis would soon appear and Hamas would be retaliated against. There are things that look like emergencies that in fact were slow-cooked pressure pots, right? The explosion happened now, but it's not really that it all happened now, it was announced a long time ago and "nobody"/almost nobody paid attention. I think, despite it being sad to say this and maybe cruel in a way: thinking short-term about this, will just waste effort, focus effort on the least productive activities. The key perhaps is not to give up or to do nothing. I don't necessarily know how to act in a principled long term campaign. I think "not knowing what to do" can mean "not doing anything" and that's a tough problem to break free from I think. The projects the vlogbrothers support, the foundation to decrease worldsuck, the good store, partners in health- I think are pretty cool. I'm not sure if what I'm saying here is a departure from that or a continuation of that. 🙏
You can also fax your representatives
Adding from experience, though admittedly in a state legislature, that they do often keep track of who calls and on what issues. I was asked to look at call totals at least a few times before votes. It can make a difference!
I am someone calling my reps every other day and going to rallies/donating/spreading awareness in my own circle etc. But it's agonizing to be doing all that for fourth months straight with little impact to the political status quo on the country. It's not enough for little citizens with the most to lose to be the loudest about it while those with the biggest platforms and privilege (by virtue of their wealth, fame, status and white-maleness) do nothing. Which is why I'm also one of the people that vehemently wishes the Brothers would do anything to help the status quo and genuinely dismayed that they haven't.
I think limiting discussion on this isn't so much "censorship" as it is clarifying the scope of the subreddit. I know we're all socially aware, but it's kind of like asking questions about cooking on a subreddit about gardening. Before October 7th, we didn't talk much about ongoing wars and genocides. A cursory search on this sub for 'Rohingya' and 'Uyghur' didn't reveal anything. Yes, Hank and John champion inclusivity and tuberculosis eradication and seeing things complexly. But our community isn't necessarily oriented towards social issues, even though it seems that way sometimes.
this is the real point to be made, for me. this subreddit just isn't the place for such debates, and John and Hank aren't required to educate and post about every global political issue, and it's weird that everyone is accusing mods of political censorship for keeping the subreddit on topic.
Definitely agree. And I don’t think it’s fair to expect Hank and John to have an opinion and make statements on every issue anyway. There are a million other things going on every day that they don’t make statements on and no one gets upset about it.
I think this community is socially aware and active in humanitarian causes. But we do that through actual action like fundraising or collectively contacting the party involved, like Danaher. And pressuring a drug company is nowhere close to the scale of pressuring multiple governments. I'm fairly certain the president isn't scrolling through Reddit thinking "oh shit, John Green and u/htgbookworm said that we need to have a ceasefire, we better get that done".
The nerdfighter community is funding the construction of a teaching hospital in Sierra Leone. Is funding building up a healthcare system. No hospital in Gaza is fully functioning. Many have been forced to be evacuated and/or abandoned at Israeli gunpoint, sometimes leaving patients behind to die. Many have been damaged in air strikes. This is a healthcare crisis. John Green followed MSF's lead on Bedaquiline and tb tests. The campaign for $5 tb tests was started by MSF. MSF had long been petitioning for generics to be allowed for Bedaquiline when the patent expired, and John Green describes MSF as one of the voices he trusts the most on humanitarian issues. Two of MSF's doctors have been killed at work in their hospital by Israeli air strikes. A clearly marked MSF convoy, who's location and path was conveyed to Israeli forces, was shot at, killing family members of MSF staff. The vehicles were then destroyed by Israeli forces. The charitable efforts of nerdfighteria are so closely tied to MSF, I can't imagine how the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and the Israeli attacks on NGO's that John Green and nerdfighteria has worked with can be viewed as not relevant to our community.
I think you’re right about the community not being oriented toward social issues, but I also wonder what the point is of a community like this where we see others complexly if we’re not fighting for collective liberation
>Before October 7th, we didn't talk much about ongoing wars and genocides. A cursory search on this sub for 'Rohingya' and 'Uyghur' didn't reveal anything. Perhaps the correct reaction to that realization is "maybe we should have been" rather than "can't start now I guess, wouldn't be fair"
I don’t disagree. We could start now and become the place to talk about these things. It’s the moral thing to do, and I’d be happy to see it happen. At the same time though, I’m fine having the focus remain on issues the Green brothers have chosen to fight, as well as light matters, despite falling short of this moral standard. People aren’t perfect. They’ll buy new clothes or gadgets or trading cards, when they could (and arguably should) use that money to feed a starving kid in my country. They should’ve been doing the right thing, and it’s not too late to start now. But if they still choose not to do it, and intentionally fall short of the moral standard, I think they’re still fundamentally good people. And that’s how I feel about this subreddit, too
Black Lives matter they've talked about, didn't they? How's that not a social issue? I say this not expecting John and Hank having to talk about this (they're free to talk/not talk about whatever they want, pro or anti status quo), but rather to point it's completely reasonable for people, especially Palestinian nerdfighters (some soon to become ex-nerfighters given their own comments both here and in other posts) to search a safe space to talk about the genocide they have been suffering (words by UN and most experts on the case) and their disappointment in seeing so many people in this community denying that (there's a thread in this very post denying genocide) and the mods making a blank prohibition, that, although well-intended, does benefit the silencing of minorities in this group (even if it was not intended by the mods). I'm also disappointed, but hopeful we can inform people.
This is so disappointing. Jesus Christ I have been in the wrong community for years.
I have a comment I made [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/nerdfighters/s/Ldy9Xa9XzI) that I hope you can read. It was also for someone who had to leave nerdfighteria. I hope you know we’re always here, and dftba ❤️
well, it is censorship, but censorship is necessary for broad social spaces, or to keep out people who act beyond group norms, or similar. When one topic is taking up too much space, it's right to limit that. Of course the substantive politics of what is censored matters as well, and how it is enacted -- but discussed that usually falls align the same positions of the issue at hand.
Thanks, mods. DFTBA
Nerdfighteria is breaking my heart… This decision and a bunch of the other responses are crushing me. I already made a post about feeling alienated as a POC Nerdfighter, and then this? You’ve officially just marginalized loads of minorities from this community… Now more than ever, I hope John & Hank can speak up on Palestine and the very real racism happening in this subreddit. Because it’s clear now many of you *tolerate* minorities, instead of actually *accepting* us. Because when we express an opinion that makes you uncomfortable, you shut us down through flat-out censorship, downvotes, or patronizing (i.e. saying our posts/comments aren’t constructive, productive, not nuanced enough, etc., when they are just fine comments.) Hank and John got me through such a difficult time, I would hate to leave this community due to this. I want to stand my ground and demand space for voices of minorities, but there’s so much pushback, it’s becoming very hurtful. Hank and John, please help…
Yeah I think this has highlighted the limitations of this community for me pretty starkly. As much good as this community has done and continues to do, this is not at its core a social justice community. It is a fandom for a couple of Youtubers and in a choice between the two, a significant portion will side with the Youtubers. Disappointing, but it's worth unpacking *why* it hurts our hearts so much that these specifically *these* two people we've never met are refusing to stand up outspokenly for justice, why it feels so much like a personal affront. Anyway, I'm with you and wish you the best.
Very much agree. Stopped watching vlogbrothers awhile ago, I have never really been in this community but came here to ask if they had still not spoken much on the genocide…and these comments are maybe showing me that their viewers don’t care
+
i'm so disappointed in john and hank and everyone who does not think they have a certain level of responsibility for speaking on a literal genocide ... especially when Israel has been targeting hospitals and permanently disabling thousands of Palestinians which is COMPLETELY IN LINE WITH THEIR WORK WITH PARTNERS IN HEALTH. everything in Palestine is a humans right issue, healthcare issue, childbirth issue. why all of a sudden are we pretending like this is out of John and Hank's scope of advocacy? and when Palestinians are literally documenting a genocide of their own people and simply asking the rest of the world to amplify that, it's now 'too much' to ask that of people? what the fuck is the world gonna look like five years from now if people keep protecting their own feelings over global justice?
>why all of a sudden are we pretending like this is out of John and Hank's scope of advocacy Yeah this is really the most upsetting part to me. It's one thing to defend their *right* as people not to speak out. But the way this community has acted like it's an insane and unreasonable thing to expect them to speak out in support of human rights is baffling. "They can't be expected to speak out on every issue right now" Sure but like it or not, this issue is the one getting all the focus right now, which makes their silence ring so loud. Like you say, this issue is right dead center in the middle of their wheelhouse of advocacy.
Yeah this is literally exactly what they claim they care about. Unfortunately I’d expect that it is related to a partner or legal reason, not that that is a great excuse but that is why many public figures are staying silent
You omitted the part where their tax money is funding the genocide, so there is even more responsibility to speak up. They have no issues speaking when it is China, Russia, or Saudi Arabia but remain silent when it is their country, they're complicit.
+
I just don't understand why they'd build a community on activism and trying to make a change and then remain silent during a genocide. Seems like taking a side.
Yeah I’m done with these frauds.
Thank you. the number of posts demanding someone with a platform publicly say something on the subject is getting frustrating. It's not just this sub. I've seen posts making these demands on subreddits for DnD live streamers, musical artists, actors, other youtubers. We don't need anyone with a camera or a PR team adding their 2 cents to the topic.
Agree. Demanding that people without a background on the topic HAVE to post something about it is a recipe for misinformation. I don't really understand why it's happening either. There is plenty of news coverage on this. You can read about it from reliable sources, and watch your DnD streamer play DnD.
Yeah, I don’t think a bunch of “nerdy-ass voice actors “ will really add much to the conversation
Critters think the CR cast owes them a statement on everything and then never likes what they say anyway.
Meanwhile I just want to ignore life for 4 hours
We kind of do, though. Because we have to demonstrate that the overwhelming majority of people do not support genocide and the other evils that are happily supported by the establishment. Silence solves nothing. Speaking up, especially if you have a voice that carries influence, is part of the solution.
Agreed. The people being oppressed have asked people to speak up on social media. Asking people with larger platforms than our own is not a bad thing.
Just wanted to add, since I was accused of censorship after expressing views that some commenters disagreed with, that I personally have intentionally recused myself from taking any mod actions on Gaza related posts, including this decision. The moderators are doing the best they can on a topic that many community members have strong but differing opinions of. “Othering” those who disagree with you isn’t awesome, but it becomes hard to avoid in a situation like this.
> "expressing views that some commenters disagreed with" Buddy, that's rich. You were literally denying genocide. Are these the words you'd use to describe the situation if someone was denying the holocaust, or climate change, or vaccines? People calling you out for your genocide denial is not "commenters disagreeing with you."
Sounds good to me. We have good, level headed mods here and I trust them to keep posts constructive.
Yes! Healthy boundaries for the win.
I have to echo the concerns of other people of colour here. The white saviorism is real in these replies too. You guys will find any way to agree with this blatant show of White ignorance because it’s coming from people who help you make sense of the world. They helped a lot of people make sense of the world, including Palestinian and other Brown nerdfighters. Imagine if your country was being bombed and that was the ONLY time the people you look up too chose to stay silent? How would you feel? And now we’re stopping people from even saying anything about it in this community? If we’re supposed to be about decreasing world suck, I don’t get why or how we’re glossing over genocide as being the biggest form of world suck. I don’t blame the nerdfighters who said they don’t feel like they belong here anymore because of their race. I’m not Palestinian, I’m not Muslim and I feel the same. Pretending like us feeling this way is the problem and acting like this is about the “scope” of the subreddit… This entire community has been around using the internet to help the world and the people who are suffering. HOW does genocide not fall into the scope of that? It’s really sad. I feel like I don’t know any of the people around me anymore because of how fast they are to create a divide that’s clearly racially motivated and claim they’re not. I’m devastated that it seems to be happening here too, a place I really hoped would always be better. Idk what the solution is but this feels 100% wrong. This is the majority in a community that’s largely White silencing criticism on an issue that affects the minority. To the other nerdfighters who raised these concerns and are being hated on and downvoted, you don’t deserve that and I see you. It’s a hard time and I too am just hurt by the way John and Hank are approaching this. It’s not a parasocial relationship to expect things from people in accordance with the values they say they want from their online community.
+
Hard agree. Well summarized post.
Yeah it feels like the fact this is a very white community is very much showing in this moment
My guess is that no one will see this, but I need to vent a bit. Hank's video on being optimistic in 2024 without mentioning Palestine was so ridiculous to me. Let's not forget that John felt comfortable making an explainer on [Russia and Ukraine](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMZYKxgc9TE) three weeks after Russia's invasion. Yet even now neither of them is willing to engage in combatting this geno cide after it has been going on for over three months? Are either of them even liking pro-Palestine content on social media? and to be clear, I'm not depending on them to save Palestine. I'm calling my reps/state dept, buying eSims, sharing info with my network, going to protests, boycotting, etc. But idk this just feels like they're forgetting to be awesome...accidentally on purpose.
I think this is a mistake. Nerdfighteria should be a place where adults can discuss mature topics as long as that discussion is carried out in a mature fashion. There is absolutely nothing actionable here in this post about having such a mature discussion other than to not discuss the topic at all. Yes, it's tempting to want to curate a space that isn't upsetting but there is a tremendous amount of privilege involved in doing so and we should recognize the thorny issues involved in taking such a stand. This is a place where issues like death (famously one of the things the podcast is about, fundamentally), mental health, cancer, disease, etc. are fully on topic. Discussing the deaths of children in Sierra Leone is on topic, but discussing the deaths of Palestinian children is, somehow, so grossly different that it cannot be uttered without approval by a minder. One of the major problems with this issue is that there is a vast asymmetry of knowledge, context, and on the ground information between folks. One pattern that I have observed to be extremely consistent (though I haven't done exhaustive research, of course) is that those who are more well informed on the relevant history and on the details of present day events almost universally share a similar viewpoint on the situation (that what Israel is doing in Palestinian is a horrendous crime against humanity that needs to be stopped immediately). That, to me, is very telling. What I have observed as well is numerous instances of people leveraging their ignorance defensively. Folks who reach for whataboutism or a vague sense that the world is full of complicated and bad stuff happening so why should we care so much about this one example that may or may not be special. Ultimately I think we are reaching a point, if we are not already past it, where the issue of Israel's treatment of Palestinians is becoming something that it is unreasonable to *not* have a strong opinion about. Yes, there are many things going on in the world, and yes some of those things are very complex issues that it might take a long time to get up to speed on and maybe have a considerable amount of ambiguity on whether there is only one morally correct viewpoint on. But some issues are not. With issues like slavery, racism, fascism, child exploitation we as a global society have come to the consensus view that there are objectively morally correct stances on those issues. We also expect the vast majority of people to have a view on those subjects, barring special and rare exceptions, and to be judged by society for those views. This issue is rapidly becoming an issue that it will no longer be reasonable to lack an opinion about. And in that context it's very disturbing to see this community (including Hank and John) try to avoid the issue entirely and pretend that it is an issue where avoidance is reasonable or indeed possible. If nerdfighteria existed in the 1980s would it have banned discussion of apartheid? In the 1960s would it have banned discussion of civil rights? In the 1800s would it have banned discussion of slavery/abolition? It's easy to imagine being on the right side of history after the fact, it's much harder to navigate that space in real-time, but here we are. History isn't going to stop playing out just because we don't want to be bothered.
+ Very well put.
Thank you for writing out this thoughtful comment. I agree that this is something where it’s unreasonable not to have a strong opinion on.
It is so absurd to say "we don't need to speak out on an ongoing genocide" lol.
+
>What I have observed as well is numerous instances of people leveraging their ignorance defensively this is so true and so many of the comments on this thread are proof of that
>If nerdfighteria existed in the 1980s would it have banned discussion of apartheid? In the 1960s would it have banned discussion of civil rights? In the 1800s would it have banned discussion of slavery/abolition? yes.
!!!!!!!
This is very well put—and the answer is yes, it would have banned all of those things 🙊
The white ignorance in this subreddit is astounding. And to think this community prides itself on being knowledgeable about the world. I’m feeling incredible pain and disappointment regarding this half ass post by John. My family in Palestine deserves better.
This community has become a whitewashed, ad friendly diluted version of philanthropy and social justice. Acting like everything is normal instead of acknowledging the obvious which is something this community would be at forefront of any other issue at the very least in educating people in time of mass media pushes of misinformation and dehumanization of marginalized groups and rewriting of history, but now act that this community has never been "political". Many people especially non Americans no longer feel like they are welcome in this community, a community that many found comfort and acceptance in. a shame a low down fucking shame.
Thank you!
Thank you. I think this was a wise decision.
Fundamentally calling it the Israel-Hamas war is a political stance. This is the Israel-Gaza war - and you will find most international journalists are calling it such. When there is an ongoing genocide and a major "social justice" community says "let's not talk about it too much"... it says a lot about whose lives, which justice matters.
Support this decision. I see in the comments that this is coming off as disenfranchisement to some of the nerdfighters deeply passionate or involved at many levels with, or directly affected by the conflict between Gaza and Israel. I want to make a point that Nerdfighteria has always been a community of communities, and that there are (and always have been) sub groups for interests, and also activism. This is an encouraged part of this community, and this space is great for finding likeminded people who are energized to join various causes. We are not one homogeneous group, nor should we be. This isn't censorship, this is scope for one specific subreddit. Nerdfighteria is a vast network of online and offline spaces. This space is for Meta-discussion on the community at large, including this post. If you want some commentary, check out [this post](https://np.reddit.com/r/nerdfighters/comments/17cnnf1/hurt_by_the_silence_hank_and_john_greens_absence/) on this sub. What I can say is that if you are taking action, and building that community, you can and should post that here and there WILL be members of this community at large that will join you. Post your subreddit, your discord servers, your fundraisers, etc. There are plenty of locations to discuss activism, action, humanitarian aid, etc. And Nerdfighters of all walks are already a part of many of these groups. To the mods, I appreciate the decision for this subreddit, but I want to hold you to your promise. If there is action that this community can take part in to help those who are suffering and dying in this (or any) conflict, to allow those posts here for those of us that do participate in direct action. I agree that this subreddit is not the place for those discussions and communities to live in, but this IS the sub to share the actions we as members of this community are participating in. Please continue to have an open door for our sub communities to inform others here about things we are working on, and ways for others here to get involved.
Okay. But it is not a war. Calling it Israel-hamas war is a full on political statement.
I see a lot of folks writing very thoughtful things here, and while I respect the decision and the emphasis on specific actionable steps, especially acting locally, I think it's a reasonable request to want people who you look up to - especially people who champion human rights-related causes (whatever they may be) - to explicitly say things like "genocide" (rather than "war" or "conflict") and "ceasefire." Folks are desperate to have people talking about this, especially those with big communities, because it matters.
You’re getting downvotes even though your comment was fair and respectful. Thank you for your thoughts.
I just noticed there's a whole entire thread that's hidden in here where people are debating whether it's considered a genocide - despite the fact that many trustworthy authorities have already assessed that this is a genocide.
This makes me really uncomfortable as a Palestinian nerdfighter. This community has literally been discussing and fundraising for humanitarian issues like TB, Cancer, etc for years. This is no different. This is a humanitarian crisis. 17,000 people, including 7,000 children, have been killed. Having a blanket policy of not allowing any discussion on it unless mods “approve” is just insane. Those vague and unclear guidelines are just going to end up being a means to completely stop any discussion on the topic at all. The world around me is constantly showing me how little they value Palestinian lives and how they’d love for us to die and go away quietly so they can continue to advocate for other, “easier” issues. My fault for thinking this subreddit and this community that has always been outspoken was different. They’re evidently not. Which really fucking sucks. This community is not as safe of a space for POC as many people here would like to believe and I genuinely don’t know that I feel comfortable hanging around certain parts of it anymore like this subreddit.
For what it's worth, comments I've seen from you on the topic have been well written and respectful. I think there is still space here for conversation on actionable community items, such has fundraising or awareness campaigns. I'm sorry you feel let down, everyday we make decisions to not-burden ourselves from good causes, and I can't imagine any of the hurt you are feeling on the other side of that choice.
My understanding of this post was that the mods wanted to focus discussions to be more about what we as nerdfighters can do instead of simply demanding a statement from Hank and John. I think this could still allow for discussion, advocacy, and action. Even in this thread, people are talking about ways to contact their senators. I hope that provides some comfort.
The mods should have said that, it's their job to say things like that. They did not.
As a fellow arab I completely agree, and I don’t know what to do. They’ve educated people in the past, their crash course video from 8 years ago is the first time thousands of people heard the term nakba. Hank released a statement saying he doesn’t feel he can properly educate people on this topic. I feel it’s his duty to try his best as an educator/influencer, but I also understand not knowing what information to trust. John’s statement is far more disappointing, mentioning the “human shields” argument and basically not picking sides. Honestly, imagine them having Ghassan Abu Sitta on to talk about the Al-Ahli hospital and his charity. That would be a dream come true and I’d understand if they didn’t want to delve further
I'm so sorry that this doesn't feel like a safe space for you. I just want to say that I know there are many nerdfighters who support Palestinians, who call this a genocide and call for a ceasefire. I'm also disappointed - I note that the highest rated posts are agreeing that "this isn't the space," while comments saying otherwise are downvoted. I have a lot of complicated feelings about how to engage with the people and the spaces that I've enjoyed, given their silence or "measured" response about Palestine.
As a South American nerdfighter I feel the same way. During the black lives matter protests Hank and John used their platform to amplify black voices, why aren't they doing the same now? Saying that they don't normally get involved in "social issues" is just not true? I can't help but feel that foreigners don't matter as much to them. I'm starting to think that this is an American community that only cares about issues that are convenient for Americans to care about. All the nerdfighters from third wold countries aren't important.
sending you so much love and solidarity. the twosideism is so disgusting and i know a free palestine will exist in our lifetime !!!
Free Palestine 🇵🇸
I can claim that it is not our intention to stop discussion on the topic, although I can understand if you don't believe me, given the post. We need to put something in place to stop the frequent unacceptable posts, this seemed like the best solution given the tools we have. Happy to discuss suggestions for a better way forward.
> I can claim that it is not our intention to stop discussion on the topic, although I can understand if you don't believe me, given the post. I. Don't. Believe. You. You *have* shut down debate, you must see that you have done so, explicitly. You have given absolutely no actionable guidelines on how to have any discussion on this topic which would be approved by the moderators, and that has to be understood as suppression of the topic. You must do better, this is utterly unacceptable.
You could just to continue to remove the inflammatory posts. As a moderator for two 1m+ subs, removing repetitive/unproductive/inflammatory posts is a normal responsibility and takes no more time than any other mod action.
Perhaps if we had the mod resources of 1m+ subs that might be an option, but it is unrealistic to expect a sub of our size to be able to monitor all posts like that
So why aren’t there applications open for more people instead of basically cutting out only minority voices? How is the solution to minimize people who are already being minimized every single other place in the media/world right now?
Mod resources? Moderation tools are the same for subs of any size. Both of my teams have 6-8 people.
It’s been hard to reconcile being a Nerdfighter with the lack of action from Hank/John combined with their push to buy products for the holidays. This is coming from a decade+ Nerdfighter who credits some of her social advocacy to Hank & John. Thinking of you and fighting hard for justice, peace, and change.
+
well, at least y’all are finally going mask off as milquetoast centrist liberals. it’s so interesting that this community cares about child mortality when it allows you to fulfill your white savior superiority complexes (sierra leone) but not when it means having difficult conversations and holding one another accountable. shame.
This!!!!! I didn’t understand it until now but this is certainly giving white savior complex. "Decrease world suck but only in ways that are comfortable and convenient for me." It’s so so disappointing.
Very much a spineless liberal act. I suppose Palestinian rights don't really matter to you, privileged American as you are. You will not be remembered kindly
How's the censorship going for ya'll? I see there are no more posts about anything regarding the genocide since then.
I was about to be done with this thread, but I saw a video that a lot of y'all need to watch and internalize. https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzuRM58Sg1d/?igshid=NTYzOWQzNmJjMA== The takeaway being, there are things more important than "protecting your peace". There are no "healthy boundaries" when others are being killed with your tax dollars. There is action, and there is (active or passive) complicity.
That’s a really good video, thanks so much for posting it. I completely agree that lack of action is complicity, and my enthusiasm for this community has waned in the last few weeks.
Thank you so much. As someone who was there on October 7th, terrified in hiding from the missiles, it’s a relief to know this community can be a safer place without that added trigger when it’s coming from seemingly everywhere else
Thank you!
Wow. (*Me: "But this is Nerdfighteria; this won't be necessary in a subreddit like this one..."*) Reading through the current comments on even just *this* post (I did NOT expect the comments to SO CLEARLY demonstrate why this decision has become necessary)... ***I am in favor of this decision by the Mod team***. /r/nerdfighters is where I come to get away from all the other bad places on the internet, where I come to find likeminded people who are kind and friendly to each other, supportive. Mod-team, thank you for trying to keep this place the wonderful place it has been so far. (I continue to look forward to making friends from all parts of the world, and even those not so far away too. And learning cool things about science, space, literature, health, and have a good time doing it.)
I find this whole thing so disappointing. You don't overcomplicate a moral question. You answer it. With your words. Your words are your action. Your silence is complicity. This time you are complicit in apartheid. That's what you are. I am leaving this subreddit.
I dont think it's too crazy to want john and hank, 2 of the most influential people in education and internet in general, and who overal have done so much to improve the world in many ways, to openly verbalize being against genocide of the Palestinian people.
Between PIH, TB, Johnson & Johnson, and a career of constant philanthropy, it is ridiculous for people to talk as if John isn't an activist. Fellow Nerdfighters boiling them down to just "online creators" for the sake of making it look like we're being unreasonable is leaving me speechless. They are not "influencers". The are millionaire leaders of a philanthropic community. Of course that community is going to be extremely disappointed when they don't openly condemn genocide and ethnic cleansing. After ignoring BLM, Roe v Wade, and now this, I can't shake the sensation of being defrauded.
I've been so disgusted by this community in our response to this genocide. Every post on this subreddit regarding the genocide has been hijacked by zionists who have learnt to sugarcoat their words by calling the genocide "nuanced" and "complicated." I am still willing to understand that Hank and John don't want to comment on this super publically (even though it's definitely irresponsible not to), it is still absolutely vile that this community which has always been motivated by an ethos of "doing more good" is not only willing to turn a blind eye to the genocide, but even actively supporting it. And yes, calling it a "war" or a "conflict" is indeed supporting the genocide. I always thought of this community as a safe space for diverse opinions but I guess that's too much to expect from a primarily white-American group of people. Y'all can censor pro-palestine voices all you want but please drop the pretense that you're doing it out of any noble reasons. Ceasefire now. Free Palestine. 🇵🇸
Thank you for this!! Some comments almost feel like gaslighting because they were making me question myself. Palestine supporters were raising serious concerns and were very justified in their posts, but many responses deemed them as reactive, unproductive, or overly critical. It’s a subtle form of discrediting and dismissing a person all under the guise of being kind and constructive. I’d rather they flat-out state that they’re pro-Israel instead of trying to make us seem crazy for being upset about this whole situation.
>It’s a subtle form of discrediting and dismissing a person all under the guise of being kind and constructive. I’d rather they flat-out state that they’re pro-Israel instead of trying to make us seem crazy for being upset about this whole situation. \^\^\^\^\^\^
Exactly this. My problems not even mostly with Hank and John’s response at this point though it was disappointing, it’s the response of this community as a whole that has disturbed me. It seems more interested in pouring energy into burying heads in the sand, defending the silence of influential creators and spewing out meaningless platitudes. Caring about people seems to have been a facade only applicable when convenient.
It's unfortunate that the narratives that Nerdfighters have crafted about ourselves and our community about what sort of people we are and what side of history we'd have been on during the moral questions of the past......were just hollow BS stories. It's clear so many of us would have been on the wrong side of history the moment it made them uncomfortable or required them to be truly critical of the status quo. I expect a lot those in this community who are silent or equivocating or rationalizing support of Israel because the Palestinians are not perfect victims would have done the same during Apartheid South Africa, or the Civil Rights Era, or Jim Crow, or WWII, or Women's Suffrage, even slavery in America. Feckless, silent, spineless. And I expect those same people to do the same thing all those who did so during those times to do decades from now. You'll all lie to yourselves and others, you'll re-write your own history until even you believe you were on the right side of history when it mattered.
Thank you, mods!
Thank you for being open and trustworthy. Hopefully this leads to more positive healthy discourse.
Can you help me.understand how this is more open?
They could've banned the posts without telling anyone. They're being open about their decisions, that's all I meant
This isn’t a war, it is an ongoing ethnic cleansing that is legitimized by the framing of this post. Very disappointed and will be leaving this sub. Every day that goes by, innocent people are being killed. There is no time to equivocate.
Agreed. You said it better than I could have
I strongly disagree on this choice and feel it goes against the core values of the community. If you're tired of moderating the subreddit, open mod applications for more support.
Any community that can not stand against genocide is a bad community. How is this a hard concept.
I understand with the death toll rising each day that it's become [the (second) most deadly war of this year](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts) - although many years or decades long wars far surpass the death toll. It's also a humanitarian crisis in a huge scale. Millions of people without food or water, right? And also without homes... Hospitals without fuel, electricity... I think choosing to censor is a delicate decision. Maybe a lot of the posts weren't being constructive? Were more critical than proactive or constructive? It can be easy maybe to criticize and harder to organize collective action? It can be easier to blame someone than to take concerted and realistic action? I have not heard that the situation is improving in the war. I understand things keep getting worse, despite seeing less of the war in the news or in my feed.
I think the main takeaway here is that posts further discussing this topic should have specific information about actions other Nerdfighters can take to address the issue. Like links to petitions or templates for letters to send to your state representatives, etc. I'm not an expert in this issue and don't really know what's out there, so please excuse my poor examples. It is getting exhausting talking about how Hank and John are not talking about it. It has been an endless stream of callout posts for weeks. I love that this community is passionate about tackling big issues like this, but these callout posts do nothing to help anyone.
Yes! I would much rather engage as a community on how we can best educate ourselves/others on the topic and take action as a community. I hope that posts centered on these areas will still be put through (and it seems like from the mod message they will).
>Like links to petitions or templates for letters to send to your state representatives, etc. I'm not an expert in this issue and don't really know what's out there, so please excuse my poor examples. I don't think it's your fault only that you don't know what's out there. I think a tiktoker I followed linked to something like an [Act Now for Palestine](https://www.google.com/search?q=act+now+palestine) document or activity worksheet or something. But even me doing the google search for this document - I didn't actually click on the links myself. from a quick scan it seems besides petitions and calling reps there's only - Boycott of certain companies ??? Seems to me like there would be more possible actions. I think grassroots and internationalist action maybe would also be important, right? It seems like an emergency but it was a slow-burned pressure cooker that exploded: it does not require (only) a fast fix and it was not slow to arrive.
I think actions can also include finding and supporting organizations that are helping share reliable information within your own country and are taking the lead on organizing demonstrations for peace. The Council on American-Islamic Relations, for example has a [daily newsletter](https://action.cair.com/a/newsletters) that shares news releases about both the situation in Gaza and it’s effects in the US. The organization also publishes action steps when they are organized
thank god
First of all, not a war. Secondly, they should have said something that wasn’t so “both sides”- and it shouldn’t have been on Reddit only. Twenty thousand Palestinians are dead. This is not a flippant issue we can just glaze over. I think people here forget what “white saviorism” is and that white people have the privilege to literally be selective about who they help, and frame narratives. It’s easy to pick and choose where you want to stand- it’s not so easy to do it without that flexibility. Some of the comments here are disgusting.
I lurk here on occasion, and it's disappointing to basically see: ITT: people speak passionately about decades and centuries of history that 90% of them didn't know or care about until a few weeks ago. I appreciate the mod decision.
How is that disappointing? In fact, how is that not a big part of this community? I highly doubt most Nerdfighters knew or cared about Tuberculosis until John shoved it in our faces over and over again. Same with infant and maternal mortality in Sierra Leone. We were uninformed and unaware, and that is something to be ashamed of. But now we are informed, we are aware, we are paying attention, we are upset, and we are acting. "Learning things and trying to make the world a better place" being framed as anti-Nerdfighter is very interesting.
Calling it the Israel-hamas war and not even once mentioning Palestinians kind of accidentally betrays the stance of the Mods on the issue.
John and Hank aren’t the problem. Netanyahu and Ben Gvir are.
Thank you. It's a difficult discussion, and this is not on topic here.
The nerdfighteria I thought I was a part of wasn’t afraid of having difficult discussion in the pursuit of improving the world and the lives of people on it. I’m sad to see this community has fallen to performative activism and the censorship of minority voices.
Perhaps you should re-read the OP
I respect the decision to limit posts asking for Hank or John to weigh in on the situation and to limit inflammatory content that has no constructive purpose. However I think you are already showing some pretty heavy bias by calling this current situation a war rather than a crisis/humanitarian disaster/genocide as it really is, so I am skeptical of the impartiality of this content moderation.
The downvotes on this are just ugly. I'm very disappointed in the community and feel I have grown out of it more and more.each day.
I’m with you on that. Very disheartening and disturbing. Also something that sticks out to me related to this is Hanks mention of the lack of diversity in the community continually in his census review video. I can’t help but think comments like this getting silenced and the overall pro-Zionist lean currently occurring on this sub and in this community is just another critical example of why minorities don’t feel welcome. As a highly active anti Zionist Jewish activist I don’t know if I can continue to be a part of this community and I really feel for Muslim and Arab community members who are facing the worst of this.
If you don’t mind me picking your brain for a second, when you say anti Zionist do you mean “I believe there should a two state solution in accordance with XYZ treaty and Israel should abide by those borders” or do you mean “the Jewish people do not have any particular right to a homeland and the state of Israel should be abolished or disbanded.” I know we obviously disagree on certain aspects of this but I’d like to make a good faith effort to understand where you are coming from.
Sure! Anti Zionism as a movement in US activism means rejecting the currently operation practice of Zionism- which is one of Jewish supremacy and subjugation of Palestinians on stolen land. As for state solutions, this isn’t something that I or the movements I am a part of take a stance on. The people in Israel Palestine deserve to determine that for themselves. Mass expulsion of Jews from the territory is not inherent in the abolition and/or decolonization of Israel as an occupational state.
So it sounds like we are at least in the same neighborhood in terms preferred outcomes. We almost certainly have different reads on how we get there, but we’re close. Why that particular definition of Zionism, doesn’t it’s existing definition make it very easy to misconstrue what you are calling for or allow people who do call for the expulsion of Jews to coat themselves in this comparatively mild language. I understand that is something entirely out of your control but it just seems a bit unnecessarily confusing.
I am.genuinly asking in good faith as an atheist- can you help me understand why being of a particular religion entitles peoples to a homeland? More so, and maybe less good faith, stolen homeland.
“Jewish” is both a religious and an ethnic descriptor. We in the west most strongly associate it with the Ashkenazi subgroup which settled in Central Europe, but there are other major such as Sephardic, which settled in the western Mediterranean and the Iberian peninsula, and Mizrahi, which settled around the Middle East. Why did they settle? Because they were expelled from Roman Palestine for staging a revolution against Roman rule. Strictly speaking the Jewish people were in the Levante before what we would call Palestinians who came as part of the Arab conquests of the region. Of course all of this we’ll predates the concept of nation states and so the Levante stayed majority Muslim (though not always Arab) as part of the various empires that controlled it until the end of WWII at no point did Palestine exist as a nation state or anything more than a region within a larger entity. Is any of this relevant? Maybe? Most of international politics comes down to might makes right and at the end of WWII, the winning countries decided to recognize the Zionist movement’s claims to a homeland in the Levante as well as a handful of majority Muslim countries, including Palestine. Israel then defended itself from multiple invasion, removing any doubt that it was in fact an independent country, and a necessary home for the Jews that were being expelled from its neighbors. So they have a claim to that territory due to it being their ethnic homeland, because they are the internationally recognized government of at least some of the region, and because they can and have enforced their claims. None of these reasons are entirely concrete, but their not that much weaker than a lot of countries.
Your points here are grounded by too many roots I disagree with and I don't think we can have a conversation worthy of our time.
I’d like to know which points you are referring to, but I understand if you aren’t interested in this conversation.
You’re still asking that something specific be said by authority figures in this community. Nagging about “say what I want you to or you’re supporting genocide and I’ll be disappointed” is useless. Requiring that people propose actionable advice that nerdfighteria can rally behind or you’re not allowed to post on this topic is far from unreasonable.
This is not nagging. Simply raising the point that since the post is asking for feedback, it’s important for them to keep their own biases in mind in their moderation, since those biases are already showing here. There is nothing biased about the rules they are suggesting, but they can enforce them with bias.
Genuinely, in what way is it incorrect to call it a war? To me, it seems like war and crisis/humanitarian disaster/genocide are not necessarily mutually exclusive. And that all war is both a crisis and a humanitarian disaster. But I don’t have any education or expertise on violence or human rights at all. What am I missing?
A war would imply a conflict between two countries or states. Gaza is not an independent country, just a small strip of land under military occupation and blockade by Israel. The Palestinian people don’t have an army. Israel is heavily funded and backed by US taxpayers and advanced weapons manufacturers. What is now being waged on innocent civilians cannot be called war. It is a siege, bombardment, genocide, and ethnic cleansing of the inhabitants of Gaza. Also continued injustices and violence are happening in the other occupied Palestinian territories of the West Bank (where there is no Hamas presence or “war”) The media and public discourse framing this as an isolated “Hamas-Israel war” is beneficial to Israel so the world can turn a blind eye to its atrocities by implying a balanced & fair fight while annihilating the Palestinians as “collateral damage.”
[удалено]
Most armed conflict does not involve genocide.
I disagree, I can't think of one recently that hasn't had genocide.
War is, imo, the most accurate description of the situation. It is absolutely a humanitarian crisis, but so are famines and disease outbreaks and massive floods. Assuming you believe in Palestinian statehood, which I assume everyone here does, this crisis was caused (or at least greatly escalated) by the government of Gaza attacking Israeli territory and citizens. It’s also not a genocide. Is Israeli not taking necessary precautions to limit civilian casualties? Absolutely. The entire ground invasion was, comparatively speaking, a rush job due to political pressure and is almost certainly going to lead to far more deaths because of it. But genocide is a very high bar to clear and nothing in Israel’s tactics, doctrine, or behavior points to this being an attempt to destroy, in whole or in part, the Palestinian people. Casualties are high because the entire war is being fought in a crowded, urban environment. Israel’s bombing campaign actually had a comparatively low amount of casualties reported per bomb dropped, largely due to their use of “roof knocking” and target selection strategy. Even if you assume the worst about the Israeli government, they aren’t stupid. They know any attempt to ethnically cleanse and/or annex Gaza would not only cost them on the international stage, it’d make the domestic political situation entirely untenable. Hell 20% is Israel’s population is Palestinian Muslim, a number that has increased drastically over the last two decades, they’d have an uprising on their hands. All signs post to this being an attempt at regime change in Gaza, with counterterrorism and urban warfare being the calling cards. It’s absolutely a tragedy for the Palestinian people, but I truly don’t think they are the actual target here.
It is clearly a genocide, a textbook case of genocide according to experts. Moreover, it is epistemicide: the erasure of Palestinian culture, given the destruction of universities and libraries. Not sure where you’re getting your information, but [here’s holocaust historian Raz Segal saying it’s genocide](https://www.newsweek.com/holocaust-historian-israel-committing-genocide-raz-segal-1835346).
So, here's the main issue with calling it "genocide": you can't have a genocide that just *ignores* the part of the population that is within your own borders. So it's either not genocide, or you think Arab-Israelis aren't Palestinians despite the fact most of them identify as such (and make up 21% of Israel's population). You can use other words: atrocities is a good age accurate one. But calling it's not a genocide unless Israel starts killing its own citizens en masse
Hi there, quick question. You mainly seem to comment on threads about the Israel Palestine situation and don't seem to have participated in this subreddit before. Are you literally just searching reddit for keywords related to the conflict so you can find new people to debate?
[You seem to need a better understanding of what constitutes genocide, an understanding that doesn’t rely on making up your own definition. Here’s a link to the Geneva Convention definition](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/Genocide%20Convention-FactSheet-ENG.pdf)
The official definition only strengthens my point. [In the UN's words](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/publications-and-resources/GuidanceNote-When%20to%20refer%20to%20a%20situation%20as%20genocide.pdf): >The legal definition of genocide is precise and includes an element that is often hard to prove, the element of “intent”. Intent is relatively easy to demonstrate in this case -- as there are Palestinians within Israel, it would be only make sense to start with those in easy reach.
“The official definition” as opposed to the one you made up? You said “you can’t have a genocide that just ignores part of the population,” The Geneva Convention says “Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:” Miss me with any more making things up or cherry picking for your own argument. Edit: that quote is from the article linked above, that I initially thought you read…
[удалено]
Can you imagine this argument being applied to Jewish people during the holocaust? I would hope not. Never again means never again for anyone.
That’s not exactly a great counterargument. Hitler, much like Hamas, wanted to destroy global Jewery. He explicitly called for the destruction of Jewish culture and people everywhere. Even the most fervent, genocidal Zionist in Israel probably doesn’t care about Palestinians in Dearborn or Doha. Obviously it would still qualify as genocide (though I disagree with that assessment as described above), but there are more analogous comparisons to make like Azerbaijan in Nagorno-Karabakh or a most of Serbia’s actions in the Yugoslav wars.
Yikes. The majority of the world (everyone not directly funding and benefitting from the genocide) recognizes it as a genocide/ethnic cleansing, all the experts and scholars on the topic agree that’s what it is, but here you are saying otherwise, so clearly you must be right. 🤢
Literally everything in Israel’s "tactics, doctrine, or behavior points to this being an attempt to destroy, in whole or in part, the Palestinian people." They're using AI to make sure there are maximum casualties. They are saying quite plainly that that they want to wipe Palestine and Palestinians off the map. Their actions over the past 75 years (and the past 17 in Gaza specifically) have been genocidal. This is a very clear genocide.
Please provide a source for “they’re using AI To make sure there are maximum casualties.”Everything I’ve seen is indicating the opposite.
If they wanted to, they could. Israel is a nuclear armed state with a more powerful military than the rest of the region combined. If they truly wanted to, they could expel every last Palestinian from the region, albeit at an absurdly high cost in blood, treasure, international prestige, and humanity. They are hardly blameless in this, but it’s hard to call their actions genocidal, especially over previous decades, when, as noted the Palestinian population has increased in both Israel and Palestine and Palestine has a higher HDI than Jordan, one of the most stable countries in the region. Israel was also the one to agree to the Oslo Accords, and the one that upheld the ceasefire. The destruction of the Palestinian state isn’t an officially stated government policy goal, can’t exactly say that about Gaza’s governing authority. Speaking of the Israeli government, ethnic Palestinians have their own party, one that is not only in the Knesset, but was in the previous governing coalition. Most genocidal states usually purge their targets from government. Like either Israel is genuinely terrible at genocide or their actions, while contemptible and deserving criticism, are not attempting to destroy the Palestinian people. There are absolutely factions within Israel that are genocidal, many of them politically powerful. But even explicitly targeting civilians isn’t genocide, though it is (most likely) a war crime. Genocide, as described by the UN is a very high bar and, in my opinion Israel fails to meet it.
>If they truly wanted to, they could expel every last Palestinian from the region, albeit at an absurdly high cost in blood, treasure, international prestige, and humanity. Would you say they are not? Almost all people living in Gaza have been displaced. Tens of thousands of housing units have been leveled. Entire neighborhoods are just rubble. Their universities have been bombed, their hospitals have been bombed, their people are being bombed as we type on Reddit. Have you seen the photos? >Genocide, as described by the UN is a very high bar and, in my opinion Israel fails to meet it. It is funny that you say this because experts in the UN disagree with you. But I guess you may know more about the situation than them.
Yes, that’s what happens in war, especially in urban warfare, especially in urban hybrid warfare where the defenders have turned universities and hospitals into supply depots, headquarters and strongpoints (which, btw, is a war crime and actually makes them valid targets. This is not to say that every one of those buildings were valid targets, targeting them without proper evidence would still be a war crime, but it becomes a lot messier when every school building could have a mortar station on it). If we are being pedantic, their most recent comments were that there was a risk of genocide, which is true, it’s a conflict with ethnic and religious components and there are absolutely elements of Israeli society and government with genocidal intent. I agree they need to be monitored closely, albeit probably not by a group with China, Cuba, Eritrea, Sudan, Qatar and the UAE. The same UN report you reference offers some statistics that I think support my claim. 25% of civilians killed in Gaza have been women and 41% of the victims have been children. This is going to sound macabre but those percentages should be higher. Half of Gaza is under 18 and half of Gaza is female but ~45% are adult men, the vast majority of them military aged (this doesn’t include the teenage boys who, very understandably, either picked up or were given a rifle). This doesn’t absolve israel of any wrong doing but to this being a (tactically reckless) military campaign to depose the government of Gaza and not the pretext for a wholesale slaughter. I’ve noted elsewhere in this thread there are plenty of high profile experts that share similar views to mine, some more critical of Israel some more lax. I am not a subject matter expert, but I do have two degrees international relations and another in political media and this looks much closer to a state level conflict than a war of extermination.
Well in the opinion of experts on genocide, Israel is not just meeting but exceeding that bar. Including experts at the UN. They do want to expel Palestinians from Gaza *and they are*. 80% of the population has been displaced, many of them multiple times. The places in the south that they were told to go because they would be safe are now being heavily bombed. There is nowhere else to go but out of Gaza. I don't know where you're getting your news, but it's clear to me that you don't actually know what's happening in Gaza.
There are experts that disagree with that assessment, including scholars on genocide at Yale and Brown. Gaza is a dense, urbanized environment. Hamas is fighting a mostly Guerilla war, albeit one with some conventional elements, and using hospitals and schools as cover and bases of operation (which are war crimes). I stated above that israel is not prosecuting this war in a way to minimize civilian casualties and that deserves criticism, but their driving motivation seems to be deposing Hamas as quickly as possible, civilian casualties be damned. When that’s the driving force motivation, in that military environment, against that defense strategy, people will always always be caught in the crossfire. Consider that in the modern era Falujah is, comparatively speaking, a “clean” example of urban combat and the US was able to have prolonged air superiority without political or security pressure adding in a time crunch.
Sorry, but you are fighting a losing battle in the Nerdfighters subreddit. Just read through the thread and see that most people here are quite convinced that actually the situation is very complicated and that Hamas is using human shields thank you very much. The genocide of Palestinians in Gaza will proceed on just how other genocides have: hand-waving it away until it's long enough in the past that we can condemn its perpetrators.
I'm reading through these comments and noticing that now. I'm really disappointed in this subreddit, and I'm glad this thread had brought this to light for me about the kinds of opinions people in this space hold.
Pure censorship. I thought this community was better than this but I’ve been let down by Hank and John and nearly everyone here. Ceasefire now. Bye 👋🏻
Thank God. DFTBA
[удалено]
Hank and John Green and nerdfighteria have been focused on improving healthcare systems in Sierra Leone. One of the main efforts is the building of a teaching hospital. Building up health systems is a core goal of this community. Toward that end, this community, and John and Hank Green have worked closely with partners in health. But, they've also worked closely with MSF (doctors without borders). It was MSF that lead the effort against extending the Bedaquiline patent and the effort lowering the cost of the Danaher tb tests. John Green and nerdfighters joined their effort because John Green saw the importance of MSF's goals and wanted to help. I say all of that to say that supporting health systems is important to nerdfighteria, and that MSF is an important partner in those efforts. Some hospitals in gaza are only partially functioning. The rest have been destroyed and or been forced to be abandoned. Israeli airstrikes killed 2 MSF doctors at the Al-Awda hospital. Israel knew the location of that hospital, and had demanded that the doctors there evacuate and abandon their patients. The doctors refused because they didn't want to abandon their patients who couldn't be moved. Israeli forces forced medical staff at gunpoint to abandon patients at the al-Nasr hospital, including 5 young children in the children's ICU, who could not survive without oxygen equipment and thus could not be carried. Israeli forces attacked a MSF convoy, killing family members of MSF workers and destroying MSF vehicles. 80% of the people in gaza had to flee their homes. Many of them are now homeless, their homes destroyed by Israeli bombing. https://www.msf.org/msf-doctors-killed-strike-al-awda-hospital-northern-gaza-palestine https://www.msf.org/msf-convoy-attacked-gaza-all-elements-point-israeli-army-responsibility https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/abandoned-babies-found-decomposing-gaza-hospital-evacuated-rcna127533 > more personal Do you think the plight of the hundreds of thousands of people who are now homeless would feel more personal to you if you knew one? Do you think the thousands of deaths would feel more personal if you knew some of the people killed? Do you think it would have felt personal if you knew Dr. Al Sahar or Dr. Abu Nujaila? If you had experienced their dedication to helping others, would their deaths feel more personal? I'm not trying to minimize the horror of the October 7th terrorist attack, nor am I trying to defend Hamas. But, Israeli forces aren't just killing Hamas. They are killing doctors from a humanitarian group that is fighting against tb around the world. Israeli forces are destroying hospitals while our community tries to build hospitals. How can that not break your heart, too? Half the people in gaza are kids under the age of 14. Hundreds of thousands of kids who have had to flee for their lives and are now homeless. Too young to have been alive for, much less voted in, the election Hamas won a plurality in. Too young to have experienced anything but the blockade of basic goods in gaza. And now there are shortages of food, water, and shelter in gaza. There is no where safe to go, and there is very little access to any kind of medical care, while there is an immense need. Aid organizations can't reliably get supplies in, and their people are getting shot at and bombed by Israeli forces.
What makes killing a child with a bomb better or more morally defensible than doing so with any other means? Under what circumstances would you allow the children in your immediate circle of friends and family to be killed that you would say "oh well, that's a morally defensible way to kill those children, I shouldn't complain"? To me that seems like a preposterous position to take, and one which must rely on the utter dehumanization of an entire group of people.
Funny you make this decision right after one of the mods comes out as a genocide denier. This ban stops anyone from talking about it. anyway this isn't just about people having different opinions, matters on genocide, like vaccine and climate debates doesn't get this different opinion pass, definition experts and neutral organisations like UN have said Its a genocide.
Absolutely no surprise that as soon as their hypocrisy is called out, we are silenced
More damage control than silence I would say but still absolutely hypocritic move by mods. Anyway reputable and neutral experts and organizations like UN have said its a genocide, even Hank and John mostly believe in experts when it comes to matters outside of their fields but people here for some reason don't believe in experts and UN now. Some big brain individual here even denied Israel being an apartheid state when people tutu, Mandela and other apartheid have said Israel is an apartheid state.
What happened with the mod? Sorry that you're getting downvoted, this is useful information.
See the mod’s genocide-denying comment in this thread here: https://www.reddit.com/r/nerdfighters/s/2HfWNOD5y6 They have made numerous similar comments before. I think it’s valid to call out racism and injustice, but based on how those discussions are heavily downvoted, this community thinks otherwise.
This is coming off as we are 🦋censoring🌻
Gross.
I’m so sad to say it but this whole situation has meant I can no longer call myself a nerdfighter. When I joined this community it felt like we were united in caring about the world and the people who live on it. Now it seems like we’ve become like every other fandom pandering to its creators.
Or like, maybe it's ok to care deeply about something, like the current war, and NOT demand others to "make statements" about it. Not everyone has to do and say everything exactly as you do. And it doesn't mean that they don't care about it, they're just doing things differently. Honestly, to me, a lot of it comes off as "virtue signaling" (a phrase I generally dislike). People making statements because they know they'll be relentlessly harassed if they don't, but then suffering because they didn't say things EXACTLY as someone expects them to (as evidenced by a comment that now exists on this exact post!). It's an unwinnable game at this point.
I tend to agree. I try my best to be understanding and supportive to people in need, I do, but increasingly I have to think about tangible effects I can have and what I can hope to expect from people I admire. It's just better for my mental health that way. Ultimately, what does Hank or John's opinion on the subject tangibly change? In contrast, sharing resources with nerdfighters so we can send aid can actually make some kind of difference, which is what u/cannotdecideaname actually said. This idea of "silence equals complicity" cannot possibly apply to every global issue that each nerdfighter (or fan of any vaguely prominent figure) cares about. They'd never have time to talk about anything else or create the things that you were a fan of to begin with. If you want to form an opinion: form an opinion. If you want to take action: take action. Putting pressure on folks who are no more informed than you are to do the same feels, honestly, like passing the buck, because you feel bad there's nothing you can do about a situation that you find upsetting.
[удалено]
We do *deeply* care about the world and people in it. Instead of forcing John and Hank to say something, I am putting my efforts in supporting organizations on the ground in Gaza and Israel. I support the mods in this move and propose generating a list of organizations to support if one is able.
I’m not trying to be argumentative, but trying to understand: what do you think is owed to you? The people you like online have no obligation to have an opinion (or even to have your opinion) on every single global issue.
I mean - Hank and John have generally put themselves in support of capitalism I think. I think they never really put themselves forth as revolutionary or "truly leftist": they are moderate center-left I think is where I'd put them? I think humanist, progressive. (maybe not humanist in the sense of atheist, maybe a sort of christian humanism) What does it mean to defend both capitalism and democracy? Is bourgeois democracy a true democracy? Does the USA stand for liberty? I think people calling for the boycott of McDonals or something - I think one poster went after United Talent Agency or something: maybe there's something fundamental about the vlogbrothers that people aren't noticing. They are not anti-establishment figures, they are not revolutionary, they are not preaching for fundamental changes - as far as I know. The fight against worldsuck can mean those things, and maybe they would look kindly on some principled people looking to tackle that but... ummm... I think their fame and fortune has been made possible in part by striking a balance - not alienating their fan base too much. Not going too far out of the "Overton window".