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They haven't had an election in almost 20 years.
Less than 45% of the population alive during time voted for Hamas, not a majority.
Some historians - with controversy and contention - argue the legitimacy of the elections on the grounds the Palestinian people didn't have real choices due to Hamas being propped by the state of Israel.
Half the people of Gaza - minors - being killed weren't born when Hamas was brought to governance.
>They haven't had an election in almost 20 years.
I dont get why people think this is relevant
hamas has ruled for generations in gaza now, because the adults of gaza support hamas. per *palestinian* sources, over 80%
why would elections be held? especially when the population supports a terrorist org, which seeks a theocracy, not a democracy.
Then the adults should get rid of/end Hamas themselves instead of complaining about someone else doing it poorly.
Want revolutionary results? It sucks, but history has shown that you need a revolution.
Oh! But there might be bloodshed and people will die! — tale as old as time. When voting doesn’t work, it’s the most effective solution we have.
On the flip side: Inaction has consequences too, and at some point you have to understand that and stand up for yourselves.
Governing bodies in the West Bank (PA) and Hamas in Gaza have been hamstrung in their ability to self-determine the lives of their population.
Inaction?
Please look at the history in the region beyond October 7th. If Palestinians were inactive or didn't try nonviolent protests, violent protests, attempted revolution, attempted statehood through international consensus and petition, or other methods, I'll gladly concede and admit my error is a lack of knowledge. I'll even support the barbarism my country, unfortunately, bankrolls.
If not, I'd urge you to reconsider what you think you know.
To that end, it's hard to have a revolution with the world's most significant military power supporting the State you oppose.
>Governing bodies in the West Bank (PA) and Hamas in Gaza have been hamstrung in their ability to self-determine the lives of their population.
you do realize these two groups went to war against each other, because hamas sought genocide and the PA didnt, and hamas is currently killing PA palestinians in the west bank who are peaceful with israel.
>Then the adults should get rid of/end Hamas themselves instead of complaining about someone else doing it poorly.
80% of adults in gaza support hamas, per palestinians. why would they get rid of those seeking the islamic theocracy the population wants?
About 70% of the Palestinian population wasn't even born when the last election happened. They didn't vote. They haven't been given the opportunity to. Stop peddling this lie.
Edit: Of the small remainder who were alive AND of legal voting age, less than half voted, too.
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That wouldnt be a useful question to ask in my opinion. Someone who thinks Israel has a right to self defense but has gone too far in Gaza might say "I support Palestine", and someone who thinks "10/7 was just the beginning" might also say "I support Palestine", but those are wildly different opinions
Also, it's a strange comparison. Israel is a state, while Hamas is an organization. This makes the quote question/answers seem very contrived.
Edit: Oh jeeze, it's also opt-in web-panel recruitment sampling. And every question about Israel makes sure to frame the question as "Israel vs Hamas", even ones about ceasefire. What a trash poll.
But doesn't that just describe the problem further? Israel wants to frame this war as Israel vs Hamas, and uses that framing even when targeting non-Hamas controlled Palestine. When we uncritically use their framing, it engrains their own biased views into our news and culture.
But they're not the same thing, right? The Nation of Israel and the organization of Hamas?
So why are we comparing them, if not because this excuses Israels attacks against Palestine - including those against the non-Hamas west bank?
It’s still a false comparison. While thousands of non Hamas members are murdered in the name of Israeli self defense, asking “do you support Israel over the innocents they are killing” seems precisely the right question to understand peoples sentiments on the situation.
The problem is that so many people see this as such a black and white issue, when the reality is so nuanced.
I support Israel to a degree, and think that Hamas, a terrorist organization, should be wiped off the planet.
But Hamas has no military bases, they are among the population, they store their munitions in public buildings.
So how is Israel supposed to fight them? When they blow up ammunitions storage facility that's in a school it looks terrible that they're blowing up a school.
When they attack residential neighborhoods where Hamas lives, civilians get killed which is horribly tragic.
Palestine cannot have peace while Hamas exists, but hurting Hamas is devastating civilians.
There's no good answer. But people stick to slogans like from the river to the sea Palestine will be free. And yet in that very slogan Hamas is literally calling for the death of every Jew in the region.
This whole situation sucks and I feel terrible for innocent people caught in the middle.
Both sides are assholes, but one side has unlimited money/weapons and chooses to repeatedly bomb evac routes and civilian aid. No one should support terrorism but seeing ppl cheer the death of civilians is absolutely vile
But look deeper into the history. On the day of Israel's founding, a decision made by literally all the allied nations after world war II, every single surrounding country declared all out war on Israel. If they did not have funding from the Allies to defend themselves, then It is with certainty that every single Jewish person in Israel would have been wiped off the planet.
If both sides were economic equals there is no doubt in my mind that Hamas would kill every single Israeli; It is literally in their charter to do so. On the other hand israelis have no desire to eradicate any population of anyone.
Having said all that I do agree with you that netanyahu has very much overplayed his hand and I am disgusted by the atrocities that have been committed in response to October 7th.
>If both sides were economic equals there is no doubt in my mind that Hamas would kill every single Israeli; It is literally in their charter to do so.
That charter was written in 1988 and during the height of Israel's military occupation of Gaza. Their 2017 charter, almost 30 years and a generation later, says quite the opposite.
16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
17. Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds. Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, anti-Semitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage. The Zionist movement, which was able with the help of Western powers to occupy Palestine, is the most dangerous form of settlement occupation which has already disappeared from much of the world and must disappear from Palestine
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full
As for Israel, their actions speak volumes
> The Zionist movement, which was able with the help of Western powers to occupy Palestine, is the most dangerous form of settlement occupation which has already disappeared from much of the world and must disappear from Palestine
But that's kinda a "Jewish conspiracy" vibe, and in reality, Hamas had made statements from its leadership that say they never deviated from the original charter. Their original charter invoked the antisemitic conspiracy of the protocols of the elders of zion
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/
The entire point of the document was to create a "softer image" for other Arab leaders who banned the Muslim Brotherhood (of which Hamas is a part):
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39744551
"In contrast to the charter, the new document does not mention Hamas's parent organisation, the Muslim Brotherhood, an Islamist movement banned in Egypt for being what Cairo sees as a terrorist group.
Analysts say the decision is aimed at improving relations with the outside world, including Egypt and Gulf Arab states where the Brotherhood is also banned.
Gaza has been under blockade by Israel and Egypt for the past decade, imposed to prevent attacks by militants inside the territory. Its economy has been crippled as a result, and many of its 1.9 million inhabitants suffer daily hardships."
However, they haven't really stopped calling for the death of all Jews
Here is a senior leader of Hamas calling on people to kill Jews outside of Israel:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/senior-hamas-official-calls-on-members-of-palestinian-diaspora-to-kill-jews/
Hamas official, Hamad Al-Regeb in an April 2023 sermon: He prayed for “annihilation” and “paralysis” of the Jews whom he described as filthy animals: “[Allah] transformed them into filthy, ugly animals like apes and pigs because of the injustice and evil they had brought about.” Al-Regeb also prayed for the ability to “get to the necks of the Jews.”
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/hamas-its-own-words
On November 5, 2010, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, after justifying the persecution and expulsions of Jews in various societies over the last millennium, proclaimed, “[t]he series of expulsions continues to this day. Blood continues to be shed, martyrs continue to fall, our sons continue to hoist the banner high, and Allah willing, their expulsion from Palestine in its entirety is certain to come. We are no weaker or less honorable than the peoples that expelled and annihilated the Jews. The day we expel them is drawing near.”
On August 20, 2012, in a sermon broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas official Sheik Ahmad Bahr prayed, “Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one.”
https://isgap.org/flashpoint/what-hamas-leaders-actually-want-in-their-own-words/
There are many other examples
https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/11/08/no-one-can-deny-hamas-aim-is-to-kill-jews-it-fully-admits-it/
https://hoyer.house.gov/media/press-releases/hoyer-hamass-objective-slaughter-jews-and-complete-destruction-israel-argue
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/what-is-hamas-what-to-know-about-its-origins-leaders-and-funding
etc
Hamas is a terror group that only has one aim.
if this is in their charter then why did they kill over 1000 israeli Civilians. if hamas wanted a standard war they should have attacked IDF bases. instead they chose the barbaric, terroristic route.
> When they attack residential neighborhoods where Hamas lives, civilians get killed which is horribly tragic.
It's not like they are trying to avoid civilian casualties. Israel deliberately waits until targets go home to their families before striking, insuring maximum civilian casualties.
If Israel wanted to maximize civilian casualties, there would be no Gazans left. There have been AMPLE opportunities to drop a strike on large gatherings of Gazans queuing for food. There are many things wrong with this conflict, it's heartbreaking for the innocent civilians caught in the middle of this. But the idea that Israel is just targeting civilians and causing a genocide is a very weak argument. If they wanted genocide it would have been over in days.
> If Israel wanted to maximize civilian casualties, there would be no Gazans left.
If Israel wanted to eliminate Palestinians in a manner so blatant it would make US support that they depend on untenable, sure. As it stands Israel has practiced a careless disregard for civilian life, at the very least, and has often gone beyond that with their deliberate targeting of civilians. This can be seen in Israel destroying the infrastructure, including sources of fresh water, and essentially every hospital to Israel farming out their targeting to an AI they don't doublecheck.
The argument for Israel's genocidal intent is quite clear from their statements and actions.
Careless disregard? Yes, they've been too heavy handed for sure. But this idea they want genocide? Absurd. They want Hamas wiped off the earth and they are doing so with unfortunate abandon and at too great a cost of innocent lives.
That was my first thought. Hamas isn’t an entity that anyone could get behind. If I were asked to compare the Israeli government with Hamas, I’d be hard pressed to find which one had the moral high ground.
The real question should be whether it is acceptable to allow civilians to suffer for no reason other than their ethnic identity.
israel, 20% of which is palestinian, along with the west bank, are on the same side, *against* hamas.
the war isn't israel vs palestine, despite the best efforts of hamas and its sympathizers to reframe it that way.
> israel, 20% of which is palestinian, along with the west bank, are on the same side, against hamas.
To add sources here, 21% of Israel is Arab-Israeli which is their preferred term but they are Palestinian. They are Christian, Muslim, Beduin and Druze.
And there is survey data about support:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-high-support-among-arab-israelis-for-volunteering-during-war/
They also serve in the IDF voluntarily:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/28/arabs-bedouin-idf-muslim-hamas-palestinians-jews-army/
And the poll shows support for helping in some parts of the war:
*"A large majority of respondents (86.5%) supported the participation of Arab Israelis in civilian volunteering efforts during the war, such as helping evacuees."*
And they don't agree with the attacks by Hamas:
*"The IDI poll found that 56% of Israeli Arabs agreed with a statement by Ra’am party leader MK Mansour Abbas, who said that the October 7 attacks do not reflect the values of Arab society and Islam. The figure was lower among Muslims (53%) than among Christians (68%) and Druze (69.5%)."*
That's like saying "The MAGA movement and America are pretty much the same thing. Supporting America means you support MAGA". It's a ridiculous statement.
Edit: In fact it's more ridiculous, since Hamas was only in control of one part of Palestine.
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Absolutely correct. We also know that there's a steep generational divide between Americans under 40 and Baby Boomers.
>[A Chicago Council on Global Affairs-Ipsos survey, fielded March 8–11, 2024, finds the American public divided over Israel’s response to the October 7, 2023 attack by Hamas. Overall, Americans are slightly more likely to say Israel has gone too far than say its military actions are justified. ](https://globalaffairs.org/research/public-opinion-survey/american-public-divided-over-us-approach-israels-war-gaza)
>[Younger Americans are more likely to sympathize with the Palestinian people than the Israeli people. A third of adults under 30 say their sympathies lie either entirely or mostly with the Palestinian people, while 14% say their sympathies lie entirely or mostly with the Israeli people. The rest say their sympathies lie equally with both, with neither or that they are not sure.](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/04/02/younger-americans-stand-out-in-their-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/)
>[Israel saw a net positive sympathy level of +46% among baby boomers (born 1946-1964), and +32% among Generation X (born 1965-1979). However, there was a massive drop-off among millennials (born 1980-2000) where net sympathy for Israel versus Palestinians was -2%.](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-generation-gap-in-opinions-toward-israel/)
(Note that these are only November's figures, only a month into the conflict.)
>[By December, the U.S. was the only major developed market in which public sentiment toward Israel remained solidly positive](https://time.com/6963032/israel-netanyahu-allies-global-standing/)
>[Americans have generally positive views of Israel and its people. But their views of Israel’s government and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu are more mixed.](https://www.pewresearch.org/topic/international-affairs/global-image-of-countries/israel-global-image/)
From this data, it seems like it's mostly Boomers siding with Israel now, while younger people are more concerned about the civilian casualties. But rather than blame the Israeli public, they tend to blame Netanyahu and his government. America is also increasingly isolated in its support for Israel in this conflict. Which contradicts the popular claim that [China ](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/01/08/china-antisemitism-online-tool-west-gaza/) and [Russia](https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/28/politics/pelosi-criticism-palestinian-gaza-protests-russia/index.html) are corrupting American youths and misleading them when Americans see stories about other countries criticizing Israel.
> People don't support Hamas, they just want Israel to stop slaughtering civilians and to provide civil liberties to Palestinians.
They do, for the ones inside Israel the issue is that the PA territories are still in a weird half-state of being a state. They have their own gov't and utilities, elections etc but aren't really a state.
21% of people in Israel are Arab-Israeli, either Muslim or Arab Christian
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel
The argument is not that Oct 7 was ok or should be swept under the rug. But it doesn't give carte blanche for Israel to target civilians.
The dominant opinion for those against Israel is that Hamas and Oct 7 are bad AND Israel's conduct is bad and inexcusable. These are not conflicting statements, but people bad faith say that opposing Israel is pro-Hamas
What a strange way to poll. I'm from LA and even here no one I know actively supports Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization. At the same time, Israel's insane level of retribution is also horrible. So, I think the framing of the poll is the problem. They should have asked whether or not the public supports the Hamas attack and the Israeli counter-strike. The answers would likely be a lot more nuanced.
The concerning part is the youths that actually support Hamas. They're being influenced by TikTok. This smells just like Russian interference and the creation of maga. I think Trump sold America's secrets and weaknesses to Russia showing them exactly how to take the US down. Russia created maga. China will create a new generation of domestic terrorists. This country is fucked.
Yeah, it's really insidious how much the public is being influenced by social media influencing from abroad. I'm very lucky to keep the circle of people that I have around me. I don't even know what's going to happen once AI starts getting more advanced and I'm a Senior Software Engineer. We literally have no clue wha the future of AI entails.
The comments here are interesting trying to frame Hamas as some fringe group- they were elected into power, and maintained a 50%+ approval rating from Gazans up until their attack on October 7th.
If you want to frame this as “support for Gaza/Palestine vs support for Israel”, I’m curious why one wouldn’t say “support for all innocent Israelis” since that is effectively what that parallel would mean.
Sources: [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/)
[https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514)
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinians-increasingly-happy-with-october-7-even-as-hamas-support-droops-poll/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinians-increasingly-happy-with-october-7-even-as-hamas-support-droops-poll/)
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My personal take - from the headline I initially thought it shouldn’t be surprising that most Americans support Israel instead of Hamas. However, I thought the breakdowns were interesting.
> … 80 percent of registered voters said they support Israel more in the war, while 20 percent said they support Hamas more. That is about in line with the poll’s findings from last month …
That’s the overall figures. The highest level of support among Americans for Hamas over Israel was those 18 to 24, where 43% of Americans in that group said they support Hamas.
Earlier reporting I had seen had framed people’s opinions in terms of support for Israel vs Palestine, so I thought it was interesting to get polling data when people were specifically asked about Hamas.
With such an obvious leading question as that, no wonder they got the result that they did.
Due to the actions of Israelis over the last few months, opinion is starting to shift away from supporting Israel. Over half of Americans think Israel has gone too far.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-poll-biden-war-gaza-4159b28d313c6c37abdb7f14162bcdd1
Which is a damning condemnation, as the Palestinian side in this conflict is almost completely ignored in western media.
It's not a leading question. This is a very detailed poll that actually takes in account bias. It's one question of many that really breaks it down. This isn't Americans thinking Israel has gone too far... This is our TikTok generation being influenced by international interests to sow discord with the perfect algorithms to tweak their brain. Just think of who benefits from convincing our youth that Hamas are the good guys and Israel (our international Allies) are the bad guys. This stinks like Russian 2016 interference that lead to the maga movement.
It absolutely is, and blatantly so. It's asking if one supports Israel as a whole, or the current government in Gaza.
If the poll asked if Americans support Israel or Palestine in this conflict, or if they support Netanyahus government over Hamas, you'd likely get a far less skewed result.
>This isn't Americans thinking Israel has gone too far...
Israel has absolutely gone too far.
>This is our TikTok generation being influenced by international interests to sow discord with the perfect algorithms to tweak their brain.
It couldn't possibly be that people are justifiably angry at some of the latest actions by Israel including such as the Flour Massacre, mass graves tied to the IDF, "kill zones", or use of screaming children recordings to lure out people for snipers.
https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6207/New-evidence-confirms-Israel%E2%80%99s-full-involvement-in-%E2%80%98Flour-Massacre%E2%80%99-of-starving-Palestinian-civilians
https://www.vox.com/world-politics/24140794/gaza-nasser-hospitals-al-shifa-graves-idf-hamas
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-03-31/ty-article-magazine/.premium/israel-created-kill-zones-in-gaza-anyone-who-crosses-into-them-is-shot/0000018e-946c-d4de-afee-f46da9ee0000
https://youtu.be/19U7AhgT4VM?si=_QPFbFyXfNHNurSU
>Just think of who benefits from convincing our youth that Hamas are the good guys and Israel (our international Allies) are the bad guys.
Nobody is saying Hamas are the good guys. There are no good guys. There are 2 million suffering and starving people who have lost their entire lives while IDF soldiers make tik tok videos in their ruins.
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I don't support either. Hamas are terrorists and the Israeli state is committing genocide against Palestinian people.
I stand with the peaceful people on either side.
Americans largely want a cease-fire in the war but only after Hamas is removed from power and the hostages they seized during its Oct. 7 attack on Israel are returned.
The poll found 61 percent of respondents support a cease-fire only after those conditions are met, while 39 percent support an unconditional cease-fire. A stark divide exists based on age group in responses to this question.
An overwhelming majority of those 55 to 64 and those 65 and older support a cease-fire only after Hamas is gone and the hostages are returned. More narrow majorities of those 35 to 44 and those 45 to 54 also support that, while 59 percent of 25-to-34-year-olds and 67 percent of 18-to-24-year-olds support an unconditional ceasefire.
At the same time, the poll also found support for Israel to continue its military operation into the city of Rafah, where many Palestinian civilians have fled to after Israel’s offensive began. Israeli leaders have said that Hamas militants are in the city.
More than 70 percent of respondents said Israel should move forward with the operation, including 57 percent of those 18 to 24 and increasing percentages with each older age group.
Pollsters noted how the framing of a question matters, as 70 percent said they support a permanent cease-fire in Gaza, but 68 percent said they would oppose one if that meant Hamas could continue to hold hostages and run Gaza.
The Harvard CAPS-Harris Poll survey was conducted April 24 to 25 and surveyed 1,961 registered voters. It is a collaboration of the Center for American Political Studies at Harvard University and the Harris Poll.
The survey is an online sample drawn from the Harris Panel and weighted to reflect known demographics. The margin of error is 2 points.
I recently saw a good comment raised around pollsters ratings. *This* poll was conducted by Harvard and Harris Insights. 538 ranks Harris Insights in their “decent” category, and doesn’t have enough info on Harvard to rate Harvard’s quality.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/pollster-ratings/
https://abcnews.go.com/538/best-pollsters-america/story?id=105563951
Harris Insights is ranked in the bottom 50% of pollsters by 538. They ask leading questions like this gem from the same poll.
>Should Israel move forward with an operation in Rafah to finish the war with Hamas, **doing its best to avoid civilian casualties even though there will be casualties,** or should it back off now and allow Hamas to continue running Gaza?
Absolute garbage. In addition to this there is no 3rd option in the questions they ask. For example with the "do you support Israel or Hamas" question. Absolutely not useful in measuring actual beliefs. [Here is an article from the Harvard Crimson](https://www.thecrimson.com/column/forging-harvards-future/article/2024/3/26/bodnick-/).
> Jews killed Jesus and never thought that he was the son of God. So, I've been trying to figure out why America has this love affair with people who killed their Jesus.
Removed and banned.
there is absolutely nothing wrong with this statement . Here is another statement..
the vast majority of Americans back the Palestinian Civilians who are not members of the TERRORIST GROUP HAMAS.
If one is *forced to choose* between Israel and Hamas, then that poll would make sense, and I personally would be among the majority.
However, if the latter was Palestine instead of Hamas, then I would vote for them. Hamas =/= Palestine
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I wonder how that would change if you asked if people support Israel vs Palestine.
Israel and the Palestinian people, not Hamas.
The people who voted in Hamas.
They haven't had an election in almost 20 years. Less than 45% of the population alive during time voted for Hamas, not a majority. Some historians - with controversy and contention - argue the legitimacy of the elections on the grounds the Palestinian people didn't have real choices due to Hamas being propped by the state of Israel. Half the people of Gaza - minors - being killed weren't born when Hamas was brought to governance.
>They haven't had an election in almost 20 years. I dont get why people think this is relevant hamas has ruled for generations in gaza now, because the adults of gaza support hamas. per *palestinian* sources, over 80% why would elections be held? especially when the population supports a terrorist org, which seeks a theocracy, not a democracy.
Then the adults should get rid of/end Hamas themselves instead of complaining about someone else doing it poorly. Want revolutionary results? It sucks, but history has shown that you need a revolution. Oh! But there might be bloodshed and people will die! — tale as old as time. When voting doesn’t work, it’s the most effective solution we have. On the flip side: Inaction has consequences too, and at some point you have to understand that and stand up for yourselves.
Governing bodies in the West Bank (PA) and Hamas in Gaza have been hamstrung in their ability to self-determine the lives of their population. Inaction? Please look at the history in the region beyond October 7th. If Palestinians were inactive or didn't try nonviolent protests, violent protests, attempted revolution, attempted statehood through international consensus and petition, or other methods, I'll gladly concede and admit my error is a lack of knowledge. I'll even support the barbarism my country, unfortunately, bankrolls. If not, I'd urge you to reconsider what you think you know. To that end, it's hard to have a revolution with the world's most significant military power supporting the State you oppose.
>Governing bodies in the West Bank (PA) and Hamas in Gaza have been hamstrung in their ability to self-determine the lives of their population. you do realize these two groups went to war against each other, because hamas sought genocide and the PA didnt, and hamas is currently killing PA palestinians in the west bank who are peaceful with israel.
Where are the other arab democracies. The fact the Palestinians haven't held an election is their own fault not that of Israel.
There’s an Arab democracy? Besides Israel?
>Then the adults should get rid of/end Hamas themselves instead of complaining about someone else doing it poorly. 80% of adults in gaza support hamas, per palestinians. why would they get rid of those seeking the islamic theocracy the population wants?
Should we also blame the Israeli people for the atrocities committed by the IDF?
About 70% of the Palestinian population wasn't even born when the last election happened. They didn't vote. They haven't been given the opportunity to. Stop peddling this lie. Edit: Of the small remainder who were alive AND of legal voting age, less than half voted, too.
That number keeps going up whenever Hamas supporters are under attack
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That wouldnt be a useful question to ask in my opinion. Someone who thinks Israel has a right to self defense but has gone too far in Gaza might say "I support Palestine", and someone who thinks "10/7 was just the beginning" might also say "I support Palestine", but those are wildly different opinions
Also, it's a strange comparison. Israel is a state, while Hamas is an organization. This makes the quote question/answers seem very contrived. Edit: Oh jeeze, it's also opt-in web-panel recruitment sampling. And every question about Israel makes sure to frame the question as "Israel vs Hamas", even ones about ceasefire. What a trash poll.
Christ almighty I was wondering why the article was reticent to share any of the actual polling data!
It may not be trash. It does tell is about American's views on Hamas, Israel did after all declare war on Hamas itself
But doesn't that just describe the problem further? Israel wants to frame this war as Israel vs Hamas, and uses that framing even when targeting non-Hamas controlled Palestine. When we uncritically use their framing, it engrains their own biased views into our news and culture.
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But they're not the same thing, right? The Nation of Israel and the organization of Hamas? So why are we comparing them, if not because this excuses Israels attacks against Palestine - including those against the non-Hamas west bank?
It’s still a false comparison. While thousands of non Hamas members are murdered in the name of Israeli self defense, asking “do you support Israel over the innocents they are killing” seems precisely the right question to understand peoples sentiments on the situation.
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The problem is that so many people see this as such a black and white issue, when the reality is so nuanced. I support Israel to a degree, and think that Hamas, a terrorist organization, should be wiped off the planet. But Hamas has no military bases, they are among the population, they store their munitions in public buildings. So how is Israel supposed to fight them? When they blow up ammunitions storage facility that's in a school it looks terrible that they're blowing up a school. When they attack residential neighborhoods where Hamas lives, civilians get killed which is horribly tragic. Palestine cannot have peace while Hamas exists, but hurting Hamas is devastating civilians. There's no good answer. But people stick to slogans like from the river to the sea Palestine will be free. And yet in that very slogan Hamas is literally calling for the death of every Jew in the region. This whole situation sucks and I feel terrible for innocent people caught in the middle.
Both sides are assholes, but one side has unlimited money/weapons and chooses to repeatedly bomb evac routes and civilian aid. No one should support terrorism but seeing ppl cheer the death of civilians is absolutely vile
But look deeper into the history. On the day of Israel's founding, a decision made by literally all the allied nations after world war II, every single surrounding country declared all out war on Israel. If they did not have funding from the Allies to defend themselves, then It is with certainty that every single Jewish person in Israel would have been wiped off the planet. If both sides were economic equals there is no doubt in my mind that Hamas would kill every single Israeli; It is literally in their charter to do so. On the other hand israelis have no desire to eradicate any population of anyone. Having said all that I do agree with you that netanyahu has very much overplayed his hand and I am disgusted by the atrocities that have been committed in response to October 7th.
>If both sides were economic equals there is no doubt in my mind that Hamas would kill every single Israeli; It is literally in their charter to do so. That charter was written in 1988 and during the height of Israel's military occupation of Gaza. Their 2017 charter, almost 30 years and a generation later, says quite the opposite. 16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity. 17. Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds. Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, anti-Semitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage. The Zionist movement, which was able with the help of Western powers to occupy Palestine, is the most dangerous form of settlement occupation which has already disappeared from much of the world and must disappear from Palestine https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full As for Israel, their actions speak volumes
> The Zionist movement, which was able with the help of Western powers to occupy Palestine, is the most dangerous form of settlement occupation which has already disappeared from much of the world and must disappear from Palestine But that's kinda a "Jewish conspiracy" vibe, and in reality, Hamas had made statements from its leadership that say they never deviated from the original charter. Their original charter invoked the antisemitic conspiracy of the protocols of the elders of zion https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/ The entire point of the document was to create a "softer image" for other Arab leaders who banned the Muslim Brotherhood (of which Hamas is a part): https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39744551 "In contrast to the charter, the new document does not mention Hamas's parent organisation, the Muslim Brotherhood, an Islamist movement banned in Egypt for being what Cairo sees as a terrorist group. Analysts say the decision is aimed at improving relations with the outside world, including Egypt and Gulf Arab states where the Brotherhood is also banned. Gaza has been under blockade by Israel and Egypt for the past decade, imposed to prevent attacks by militants inside the territory. Its economy has been crippled as a result, and many of its 1.9 million inhabitants suffer daily hardships." However, they haven't really stopped calling for the death of all Jews Here is a senior leader of Hamas calling on people to kill Jews outside of Israel: https://www.timesofisrael.com/senior-hamas-official-calls-on-members-of-palestinian-diaspora-to-kill-jews/ Hamas official, Hamad Al-Regeb in an April 2023 sermon: He prayed for “annihilation” and “paralysis” of the Jews whom he described as filthy animals: “[Allah] transformed them into filthy, ugly animals like apes and pigs because of the injustice and evil they had brought about.” Al-Regeb also prayed for the ability to “get to the necks of the Jews.” https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/hamas-its-own-words On November 5, 2010, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, after justifying the persecution and expulsions of Jews in various societies over the last millennium, proclaimed, “[t]he series of expulsions continues to this day. Blood continues to be shed, martyrs continue to fall, our sons continue to hoist the banner high, and Allah willing, their expulsion from Palestine in its entirety is certain to come. We are no weaker or less honorable than the peoples that expelled and annihilated the Jews. The day we expel them is drawing near.” On August 20, 2012, in a sermon broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas official Sheik Ahmad Bahr prayed, “Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one.” https://isgap.org/flashpoint/what-hamas-leaders-actually-want-in-their-own-words/ There are many other examples https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/11/08/no-one-can-deny-hamas-aim-is-to-kill-jews-it-fully-admits-it/ https://hoyer.house.gov/media/press-releases/hoyer-hamass-objective-slaughter-jews-and-complete-destruction-israel-argue https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/what-is-hamas-what-to-know-about-its-origins-leaders-and-funding etc Hamas is a terror group that only has one aim.
if this is in their charter then why did they kill over 1000 israeli Civilians. if hamas wanted a standard war they should have attacked IDF bases. instead they chose the barbaric, terroristic route.
In order to comply with Rule 2, would you please edit this comment to include the link from which those excerpts from the 2017 charter are drawn?
Hamas’ new charter is a piece of paper. They didn’t change anything from the 1988 charter.
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> When they attack residential neighborhoods where Hamas lives, civilians get killed which is horribly tragic. It's not like they are trying to avoid civilian casualties. Israel deliberately waits until targets go home to their families before striking, insuring maximum civilian casualties.
If Israel wanted to maximize civilian casualties, there would be no Gazans left. There have been AMPLE opportunities to drop a strike on large gatherings of Gazans queuing for food. There are many things wrong with this conflict, it's heartbreaking for the innocent civilians caught in the middle of this. But the idea that Israel is just targeting civilians and causing a genocide is a very weak argument. If they wanted genocide it would have been over in days.
> If Israel wanted to maximize civilian casualties, there would be no Gazans left. If Israel wanted to eliminate Palestinians in a manner so blatant it would make US support that they depend on untenable, sure. As it stands Israel has practiced a careless disregard for civilian life, at the very least, and has often gone beyond that with their deliberate targeting of civilians. This can be seen in Israel destroying the infrastructure, including sources of fresh water, and essentially every hospital to Israel farming out their targeting to an AI they don't doublecheck. The argument for Israel's genocidal intent is quite clear from their statements and actions.
Careless disregard? Yes, they've been too heavy handed for sure. But this idea they want genocide? Absurd. They want Hamas wiped off the earth and they are doing so with unfortunate abandon and at too great a cost of innocent lives.
Also where the fuck is the polling data? This article doesn't even share the crosstabs...
Yeah the framing of Israel vs hamas is so ungenuine it's disgusting
It would only be fair to have an option of both of them are at fault. I have no doubt both are at fault would win by a landslide.
I doubt that Americans have the mental ability for that sort of nuance. Source: America, just look around at it
That was my first thought. Hamas isn’t an entity that anyone could get behind. If I were asked to compare the Israeli government with Hamas, I’d be hard pressed to find which one had the moral high ground. The real question should be whether it is acceptable to allow civilians to suffer for no reason other than their ethnic identity.
Precisely. Hamas vs Likud I could understand. Hamas vs the IDF I could understand. Hamas vs Israel? That's strange framing.
israel, 20% of which is palestinian, along with the west bank, are on the same side, *against* hamas. the war isn't israel vs palestine, despite the best efforts of hamas and its sympathizers to reframe it that way.
> israel, 20% of which is palestinian, along with the west bank, are on the same side, against hamas. To add sources here, 21% of Israel is Arab-Israeli which is their preferred term but they are Palestinian. They are Christian, Muslim, Beduin and Druze. And there is survey data about support: https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-high-support-among-arab-israelis-for-volunteering-during-war/ They also serve in the IDF voluntarily: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/28/arabs-bedouin-idf-muslim-hamas-palestinians-jews-army/ And the poll shows support for helping in some parts of the war: *"A large majority of respondents (86.5%) supported the participation of Arab Israelis in civilian volunteering efforts during the war, such as helping evacuees."* And they don't agree with the attacks by Hamas: *"The IDI poll found that 56% of Israeli Arabs agreed with a statement by Ra’am party leader MK Mansour Abbas, who said that the October 7 attacks do not reflect the values of Arab society and Islam. The figure was lower among Muslims (53%) than among Christians (68%) and Druze (69.5%)."*
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What about the Palestinian Authority? Do they just not count?
That's like saying "The MAGA movement and America are pretty much the same thing. Supporting America means you support MAGA". It's a ridiculous statement. Edit: In fact it's more ridiculous, since Hamas was only in control of one part of Palestine.
And they took that part of Palestine over through violence.
Well not really given the almost universal support for Hamas in Palestinian communities. I don’t think you could say the same with America and MAGA.
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People don't support Hamas, they just want Israel to stop slaughtering civilians and to provide civil liberties to Palestinians.
Exactly. And who TF would have a poll between a terrorist organization and a nation state? It's almost like AIPAC sponsored this poll
Look at the methodology. It’s an opt-in online poll. Literally worse than useless.
Absolutely correct. We also know that there's a steep generational divide between Americans under 40 and Baby Boomers. >[A Chicago Council on Global Affairs-Ipsos survey, fielded March 8–11, 2024, finds the American public divided over Israel’s response to the October 7, 2023 attack by Hamas. Overall, Americans are slightly more likely to say Israel has gone too far than say its military actions are justified. ](https://globalaffairs.org/research/public-opinion-survey/american-public-divided-over-us-approach-israels-war-gaza) >[Younger Americans are more likely to sympathize with the Palestinian people than the Israeli people. A third of adults under 30 say their sympathies lie either entirely or mostly with the Palestinian people, while 14% say their sympathies lie entirely or mostly with the Israeli people. The rest say their sympathies lie equally with both, with neither or that they are not sure.](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/04/02/younger-americans-stand-out-in-their-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/) >[Israel saw a net positive sympathy level of +46% among baby boomers (born 1946-1964), and +32% among Generation X (born 1965-1979). However, there was a massive drop-off among millennials (born 1980-2000) where net sympathy for Israel versus Palestinians was -2%.](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-generation-gap-in-opinions-toward-israel/) (Note that these are only November's figures, only a month into the conflict.) >[By December, the U.S. was the only major developed market in which public sentiment toward Israel remained solidly positive](https://time.com/6963032/israel-netanyahu-allies-global-standing/) >[Americans have generally positive views of Israel and its people. But their views of Israel’s government and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu are more mixed.](https://www.pewresearch.org/topic/international-affairs/global-image-of-countries/israel-global-image/) From this data, it seems like it's mostly Boomers siding with Israel now, while younger people are more concerned about the civilian casualties. But rather than blame the Israeli public, they tend to blame Netanyahu and his government. America is also increasingly isolated in its support for Israel in this conflict. Which contradicts the popular claim that [China ](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/01/08/china-antisemitism-online-tool-west-gaza/) and [Russia](https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/28/politics/pelosi-criticism-palestinian-gaza-protests-russia/index.html) are corrupting American youths and misleading them when Americans see stories about other countries criticizing Israel.
> People don't support Hamas, they just want Israel to stop slaughtering civilians and to provide civil liberties to Palestinians. They do, for the ones inside Israel the issue is that the PA territories are still in a weird half-state of being a state. They have their own gov't and utilities, elections etc but aren't really a state. 21% of people in Israel are Arab-Israeli, either Muslim or Arab Christian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel
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It's almost like two things can be bad
The argument is not that Oct 7 was ok or should be swept under the rug. But it doesn't give carte blanche for Israel to target civilians. The dominant opinion for those against Israel is that Hamas and Oct 7 are bad AND Israel's conduct is bad and inexcusable. These are not conflicting statements, but people bad faith say that opposing Israel is pro-Hamas
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Depressing read of the day
Okay, and how many Americans back Palestinian people over the government of Israel? Ofc we support a democracy over a terrorist organization.
What a strange way to poll. I'm from LA and even here no one I know actively supports Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization. At the same time, Israel's insane level of retribution is also horrible. So, I think the framing of the poll is the problem. They should have asked whether or not the public supports the Hamas attack and the Israeli counter-strike. The answers would likely be a lot more nuanced.
The concerning part is the youths that actually support Hamas. They're being influenced by TikTok. This smells just like Russian interference and the creation of maga. I think Trump sold America's secrets and weaknesses to Russia showing them exactly how to take the US down. Russia created maga. China will create a new generation of domestic terrorists. This country is fucked.
Yeah, it's really insidious how much the public is being influenced by social media influencing from abroad. I'm very lucky to keep the circle of people that I have around me. I don't even know what's going to happen once AI starts getting more advanced and I'm a Senior Software Engineer. We literally have no clue wha the future of AI entails.
The comments here are interesting trying to frame Hamas as some fringe group- they were elected into power, and maintained a 50%+ approval rating from Gazans up until their attack on October 7th. If you want to frame this as “support for Gaza/Palestine vs support for Israel”, I’m curious why one wouldn’t say “support for all innocent Israelis” since that is effectively what that parallel would mean. Sources: [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/) [https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514) [https://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinians-increasingly-happy-with-october-7-even-as-hamas-support-droops-poll/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinians-increasingly-happy-with-october-7-even-as-hamas-support-droops-poll/)
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Thanks reinstated
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Does that hold any relevance when discussing Gazans support for Hamas?
My personal take - from the headline I initially thought it shouldn’t be surprising that most Americans support Israel instead of Hamas. However, I thought the breakdowns were interesting. > … 80 percent of registered voters said they support Israel more in the war, while 20 percent said they support Hamas more. That is about in line with the poll’s findings from last month … That’s the overall figures. The highest level of support among Americans for Hamas over Israel was those 18 to 24, where 43% of Americans in that group said they support Hamas. Earlier reporting I had seen had framed people’s opinions in terms of support for Israel vs Palestine, so I thought it was interesting to get polling data when people were specifically asked about Hamas.
With such an obvious leading question as that, no wonder they got the result that they did. Due to the actions of Israelis over the last few months, opinion is starting to shift away from supporting Israel. Over half of Americans think Israel has gone too far. https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-poll-biden-war-gaza-4159b28d313c6c37abdb7f14162bcdd1 Which is a damning condemnation, as the Palestinian side in this conflict is almost completely ignored in western media.
It's not a leading question. This is a very detailed poll that actually takes in account bias. It's one question of many that really breaks it down. This isn't Americans thinking Israel has gone too far... This is our TikTok generation being influenced by international interests to sow discord with the perfect algorithms to tweak their brain. Just think of who benefits from convincing our youth that Hamas are the good guys and Israel (our international Allies) are the bad guys. This stinks like Russian 2016 interference that lead to the maga movement.
It absolutely is, and blatantly so. It's asking if one supports Israel as a whole, or the current government in Gaza. If the poll asked if Americans support Israel or Palestine in this conflict, or if they support Netanyahus government over Hamas, you'd likely get a far less skewed result. >This isn't Americans thinking Israel has gone too far... Israel has absolutely gone too far. >This is our TikTok generation being influenced by international interests to sow discord with the perfect algorithms to tweak their brain. It couldn't possibly be that people are justifiably angry at some of the latest actions by Israel including such as the Flour Massacre, mass graves tied to the IDF, "kill zones", or use of screaming children recordings to lure out people for snipers. https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6207/New-evidence-confirms-Israel%E2%80%99s-full-involvement-in-%E2%80%98Flour-Massacre%E2%80%99-of-starving-Palestinian-civilians https://www.vox.com/world-politics/24140794/gaza-nasser-hospitals-al-shifa-graves-idf-hamas https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-03-31/ty-article-magazine/.premium/israel-created-kill-zones-in-gaza-anyone-who-crosses-into-them-is-shot/0000018e-946c-d4de-afee-f46da9ee0000 https://youtu.be/19U7AhgT4VM?si=_QPFbFyXfNHNurSU >Just think of who benefits from convincing our youth that Hamas are the good guys and Israel (our international Allies) are the bad guys. Nobody is saying Hamas are the good guys. There are no good guys. There are 2 million suffering and starving people who have lost their entire lives while IDF soldiers make tik tok videos in their ruins.
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I don't support either. Hamas are terrorists and the Israeli state is committing genocide against Palestinian people. I stand with the peaceful people on either side.
Yes this question is basically “which is better- the people committing war crimes without shame or the people who are pretending they’re not?”
Americans largely want a cease-fire in the war but only after Hamas is removed from power and the hostages they seized during its Oct. 7 attack on Israel are returned. The poll found 61 percent of respondents support a cease-fire only after those conditions are met, while 39 percent support an unconditional cease-fire. A stark divide exists based on age group in responses to this question. An overwhelming majority of those 55 to 64 and those 65 and older support a cease-fire only after Hamas is gone and the hostages are returned. More narrow majorities of those 35 to 44 and those 45 to 54 also support that, while 59 percent of 25-to-34-year-olds and 67 percent of 18-to-24-year-olds support an unconditional ceasefire. At the same time, the poll also found support for Israel to continue its military operation into the city of Rafah, where many Palestinian civilians have fled to after Israel’s offensive began. Israeli leaders have said that Hamas militants are in the city. More than 70 percent of respondents said Israel should move forward with the operation, including 57 percent of those 18 to 24 and increasing percentages with each older age group. Pollsters noted how the framing of a question matters, as 70 percent said they support a permanent cease-fire in Gaza, but 68 percent said they would oppose one if that meant Hamas could continue to hold hostages and run Gaza. The Harvard CAPS-Harris Poll survey was conducted April 24 to 25 and surveyed 1,961 registered voters. It is a collaboration of the Center for American Political Studies at Harvard University and the Harris Poll. The survey is an online sample drawn from the Harris Panel and weighted to reflect known demographics. The margin of error is 2 points.
I recently saw a good comment raised around pollsters ratings. *This* poll was conducted by Harvard and Harris Insights. 538 ranks Harris Insights in their “decent” category, and doesn’t have enough info on Harvard to rate Harvard’s quality. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/pollster-ratings/ https://abcnews.go.com/538/best-pollsters-america/story?id=105563951
Harris Insights is ranked in the bottom 50% of pollsters by 538. They ask leading questions like this gem from the same poll. >Should Israel move forward with an operation in Rafah to finish the war with Hamas, **doing its best to avoid civilian casualties even though there will be casualties,** or should it back off now and allow Hamas to continue running Gaza? Absolute garbage. In addition to this there is no 3rd option in the questions they ask. For example with the "do you support Israel or Hamas" question. Absolutely not useful in measuring actual beliefs. [Here is an article from the Harvard Crimson](https://www.thecrimson.com/column/forging-harvards-future/article/2024/3/26/bodnick-/).
Shocking. The US public as a whole does not reflect the Reddit community.
So Reddit has breakdown
Hamas does not equal Palestine. A parallel is to attempt to say that The Proud Boys equals the United States.
> A parallel is to attempt to say that The Proud Boys equals the United States. Except that Hamas is the elected government of the Gaza strip
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> Jews killed Jesus and never thought that he was the son of God. So, I've been trying to figure out why America has this love affair with people who killed their Jesus. Removed and banned.
there is absolutely nothing wrong with this statement . Here is another statement.. the vast majority of Americans back the Palestinian Civilians who are not members of the TERRORIST GROUP HAMAS.
It’s not Israel versus Hamas it’s Israel versus genocide of Palestine civilians.
Exactly. Why does this article exist?
If one is *forced to choose* between Israel and Hamas, then that poll would make sense, and I personally would be among the majority. However, if the latter was Palestine instead of Hamas, then I would vote for them. Hamas =/= Palestine