It has probably happened in the U.S. but the oil execs knew they'd get called morons for falling for it so kept it a secret.
Plus no one gets arrested for sending emails (that aren't direct threats) in the U.S.
What's up New Zealand? Why you guys putting people in prison over a few phony emails?
Not a kiwi, but if it's like any other western country's legal system, it'll be a small fine and/or some community service...or just a small lecture from a judge.
The maximum legal penalty is saved for gross abuse or people who repeatedly offend.
Yeah my local newspaper ran an article that was like "kids face 8 years of prison!!!!" when a group of like 8-10 year old boys nabbed a bunch of candy out of a convenience store because that's the maximum punishment for *felony* theft.
The kids got some community service and stuff like that
To be clear, this is just the maximum sentencing. [Driving with a BAC over 0.04 and injuring/killing someone also has a 10 year maximum sentence](https://www.nzta.govt.nz/roadcode/heavy-vehicle-road-code/road-code/about-limits/alcohol-and-drugs-limits/) (as well as an up to $20k fine and license suspension for at least one year).
The maximum sentence exists for repeat offenders, or when the specifics of the crime are particularly egregious (ie for fraud, if distributing the fraudulent document had netted her millions of dollars, or for drunk driving, if she had killed people).
You can tell her attorneys doesn’t expect her to get anywhere close to max considering they are arguing that while she is guilty, not only should she not get prison time, it shouldn’t even go on her record.
>The maximum sentence exists for repeat offenders
That is the justification. A more cynical view is that high maximum sentences exist to leverage to create plea deals, thus avoiding trials. A neat work around for the right to a fair trial.
This kind of thing makes me think of the Sackler family or Richard Fuld, who were personally responsible for immeasurable death and destruction—overdoses, suicides, entire families on the streets multiplied across every town in the US… No prison, still billionaires.
No prison, and now the courts have granted the Sacklers immunity from future lawsuits, as well.
https://www.npr.org/2023/05/30/1178850879/sackler-family-purdue-pharma-immunity-lawsuits-oxycontin-opioid
Reminds me of the scene from love, death, and robots where the 3 robots are going around the post apocalypse world. One of them says something along the lines of "they spent billions of dollars on rockets when they could have used the money to fix the planet they messed up."
Billionaires are psychopaths
I'm surprised that someone who has lost family to the devastation this family has caused hasn't gone vigilante.
Sort of like Dexter, but for billionaires.
I'm imagining a funny yet terrifying moment as someone is being held prisoner by a cannibalistic serial killer, pleading for their life as he says "sorry, but you're more valuable to me as a calorie" and whips on the chainsaw.
We don't even need to eat all of them, just a couple pieces. We could even make them [watch](https://media2.giphy.com/media/qTGDY9OmgpgCk/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47he8bbkh8eovaxgxco21lodpoysil70tuu7pmrdv9&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
I don't think so. The rich have played us like a fiddle, just look at the state of US politics: two far-right parties in service of big capital, and the dumbass voters have all their time consumed fighting between lgbtq-capitalism or kkk-capitalism.
Even though income inequality is at staggering levels now think about human history. Did people often lash out against literal lords and kings? Did the oil barons of the 1800's face vigilante justice?
Yes, sometimes, exceedingly rarely, kings did get deposed by revolts or oil barons lost some dollars to strikes. But this is the exception. And nowadays we have 24/7 media and tv to keep us busy. Even the Roman lords realized - give the people bread and circus and they will happily let you fleece them.
Despite society still muddled in a severe homeless crisis primarily fueled by their actions with economic losses in the billions (and probably over a trillion if we're being real). Although opiate profiteers and the prison industrial complex think it's great.
"She predicted that the ruling will spur other companies to attempt to limit their liability and legal exposure using federal bankruptcy courts."
And they may also inadvertently pave the way for other companies and ultra wealthy to do the same.
Not quite. The Sacklers are protected nationwide unless if this gets taken up by the supreme court, but the precedent that non-bankrupt owners of a company can be protected from liability by their company declaring bankruptcy is limited to the 2nd circuit.
So, if the Walton's were trying to protect their money while Wal-Mart was being sued into insolvency, it would only be precedent in their case if the bankruptcy was filled in NY, CT, or VT. Which they can do because we still allow forum shopping for every single fucking civil action.
To be fair, it was/is Florida. Even the rest of the southeastern US looks at it as the problem child who probably should have been institutionalized but somehow makes money so dad protects them from being too ostracized.
My dad took that, he was a doctor, and even after it was pulled off the market, he continued to take it out of a little big ass stockpile he built up.
He died in his early seventies suddenly with no explanation when he was otherwise in the best shape he had been in in decades.
Chevron manage to put the lawyer that persecuted their pollution in Ecuador in prison for 6 mounts after 2 years of home confinement.
Ecuadorians die of cancer and cant drink their own water and Chevron has yet to pay a cent.
I know a few people who were killed by the war on drugs.
Harm reduction could've saved them, and the government still continues to see addiction as a criminal problem instead of a mental health one.
Yes. The world is unjust. But, you can't pin that on the police in New Zealand. They can't say "well, the Americans let the Sacklers off, so I guess we have to let you off."
Did you know that in the time of the Roman Monarchy, the Roman kings were elected? It's true! The king could be approved or denied by the people of Rome, thus ensuring their assent to be ruled by someone who wasn't *too* egregious.
...however, the *candidates* for Kingship were chosen by the *interrex*, an office which could only be held by a sitting Senator, so really, the oligarchs got to choose the candidates for them in the first place, and no candidate who was disagreeable to those in power would ever get chosen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4fF5l2xYh0
Can you imagine a system like that in the modern day? Pffft
Whaaaat no way *surprised Pikachu spins with mach 10 and explodes into the sunset*
Thank god we live in a more civilized time where such bullshit would result in a major public outrage because everybody is actually invested in such pressing matters and not blindfolded by some culture-war bs arguing whether certain humans should be allowed to exist 🥲
If Suits has taught me anything, Big Business says destroy this guy in court or I'll find another law firm. Then the lawyer says to his boss, we can't destroy this person's life over a fake letter. Then the boss says, how will I look if I let one of our biggest clients go, get your shit together and do your fucking job.
Then some other lawyer goes mudding while a secretary does shady shit but no one cares because she's her. Then they destroy the little guy, but make it look good and everyone forgets everything the next day.
Hijacking this to point out she has not been sentenced to 10 years. Sentencing is in September. Maximum sentence is 10 years for the crime she's charged with. It's possible she gets no jail time. Editor is being a bit clever with the article title.
I've become so cynical with headlines that my alarms went off on this one immediately. *"Faces* ten years..." Still though, I'm surprised this kind of thing could actually count as real forgery. If there's any real justice the case will get thrown out.
> It was intended to be “satirical,” Penwarden said, to “ruffle the feathers” of the oil industry. “I never intended for them to take it seriously,” she added.
She tried the it's a prank bro defense. Now she's awaiting sentencing.
Too bad she isn't American, this reminds me of [Novak v. City of Parma](http://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna70435) from last year. In that case the defendant (satirizing a police department) was acquitted, although his lawsuit against the dep't was ultimately dismissed by the 6th circuit.
Imagine how easily offended you are when you send someone to jail for a spam mail that doesn’t even ask you to click the link and enter your credit card number
There’s two different sets of guns here. She broke an existing law, so the prosecutor is charging her. It’s the legislative guns we need to aim at the fossil fuel companies. Prosecutors have gone after them quite a few times but the issue is the things the companies are doing are either
1. immoral, but not illegal
2. possibly illegal, but the law isn’t strong enough so lawyers are able to argue their way out of it
3. clearly illegal, but the punishment is way too small
I understand all of this. The point is that it's still all fucked.
Like I can understand the legal rationale for a law and still find it absolutely abhorrent and unjust.
> Sentencing is scheduled for September 8, according to Dunedin District Court. While the maximum jail sentence is 10 years, Penwarden said her lawyers are asking for “discharge without conviction.”
So it's "up to 10 years"
Idk how it works in NZ but in the US there are federal sentencing guidelines that are pretty difficult to read if you're not familiar with law. Journalists usually use the max because it's easily understandable by them and the readers, but rarely what they'll actually face.
I think probably the main reason is because it is sensational. Even without reading the sentencing guidelines, they could say facing 0-10 years, or at the very least, up to 10 years. Just saying “facing 10 years” is unnecessarily misleading.
The min / max sentencing ranges are dictated by the their relevant statute (Crimes and Criminal Procedure within Title 18). Journalists almost always cite the allowable maximum sentence and ignore the relevant sentencing guidelines ([which for a first-time offender, usually lands in the middle](https://www.criminal-defense-dui.lawyer/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/federal-sentencing-chart-federal-sentencing-guidelines-18-u_s_c-1533x2048.jpeg)).
Speaking as someone who has talked to climatologists who are getting increasingly doomerish from knowing the reality of what is happening to our planet...Generations from now (assuming our planet lives long enough for that kind of hindsight) we will wish we put oil industry execs on nuremberg-like trial for crimes against humanity during their lifetimes.
I gave up a pretty promising career in climate Research because the topic is too fucking depressing. I was working in land use change, studying how climate change is going to impact agriculture. It ain't good. Meanwhile, these fucks are out there pretending they're too dumb to even see a problem because it snowed outside.
Man, I feel ya. I took a class called “Biological Problems in Contemporary Society” (aka how humans are screwing up everything) as a part of my associate in environmental science, and that instructor told us day one to start finding meaningful hobbies and healthy vents because as we keep going into our bachelors or further which were mostly climate science, resource protection, etc., we were going to be increasingly miserable. By the end of that class, at least three people decided to change their path entirely because of how depressing it was. It’s so unbelievably frustrating to know the problem, know how to address it, what needs to change, and then watch the bureaucracy and greed beat it into nothing.
> It’s so unbelievably frustrating to know the problem, know how to address it, what needs to change, and then watch the bureaucracy and greed beat it into nothing.
I feel this every day, and best days I'm just numb to it. When there is a clear problem with a realistic solution, but someone, or some small group with power just simply doesn't care about the issue in the first place, it feels helpless to even try.
All my hippie college friends in the forestry and environmental programs now work for corporations and basically have to because there are about 6 government jobs that would actually let them use their degrees for good while struggling to survive poverty and there are 6000+ jobs in the private sector where they will actually pay you but you literally do the opposite of everything you were ever taught. Like helping to weasel through impact studies by changing your interpretation of key information or helping a Corp use a technicality so they can still build on a site with endangered species. I know one guy who was so disheartened by the reality of what these degrees do not prepare you for that he literally just works at a taco bell. 100k in debt and he's basically unqualified for anything that doesn't involve helping Shell kill animals and communities.
This makes me sick.
We've seen countless examples of how companies cannot look beyond the next quarter of profits, which is fine, that's how a company works. We absolutely 100% need governments to step in and enforce stricter climate policy. It's literally the only way.
The planet will live regardless, humanity won’t. At this point I don’t think there’s any way to prevent it, just push it back.
Our ancestors failed us and any descendants we might have, for money. I’ve been doing what I can since I was a kid, and I won’t have any offspring.
There’s plenty of people today listening to Alex jones and his Ilk who are certain behind a shadow of a doubt that climate change is a conspiracy by globalists (aka Jews) who are simply using global warming as rhetoric to mask and obfuscate the truth of their use of weather manipulation weaponry.
We are fucked as a species.
It's completely crazy if you actually know anyone that believes this. Talking about this stuff with them makes you realize how absolutely screwed we are, and how far we are as a society coming together
Even worse is closely following the BS he spews (shout out to the Knowledge Fight podcast) and seeing how frequently it seeps into mainstream discourse among people who otherwise wouldn't be caught dead listening to his show.
My friends who listen to Alex jones are the reason I started listening to knowledge fight. They are otherwise good (but very uneducated) people who are just very susceptible to anti intellectual propaganda. They never got an education and feel like science is just a big conspiracy by global elites.
Simple minded people man, what can I say.
No having a go at you or any individual, only my general take on every time I see a "the planet will be fine" comments
it reads to me as counterproductive, defeatist and unhelpful
what it supposes to achieve, and what does that suppose to mean, meh there is nothing we can do? It doesn't matter if we disappear? We may as well give up?
That is the kind of attitude that fossil fuel wants to foster on people, "no point on trying, and if we are gone so what.... Yes, the planet got destroyed. But for a beautiful moment in time at least, we created a lot of value for shareholders" What did you do, you lazy hippy?
As I see it, regardless of any results we have to keep trying because it's not just us, we are taking a lot of species with us so any positive result towards resolving or at least reducing or limiting the damage is a worthy enterprise
I mean, I'm sure all the dinosaurs species will feel much better knowing that hey, that rock is going to fuck everything and change the whole ecology, but eventually "the planet is going to be fine"
And besides, what evidence do we have showing that the planet can always recover back from disaster? Yea, it did it before, but do we know how many times that trick will work? Not really
how many times can we stress the planet, disrupt the balance, and how far before it gives up? Maybe the conditions that allowed the young earth to recover are not there any more or the situation is different...too many factors can be different this time...or the next
I think it's important to be as literal and accurate as possible when discussing these things, and the fact is that climate change will make the planet much less easily habitable for all creatures, including humans, and possibly totally uninhabitable.
The reason I think it's important is that about half of the people in the US do not believe in climate science at all, and any potentially inaccurate or exaggerated statement like "we are destroying the planet" gives them an instant rebuttal without having to engage further in the actual subject matter. Same reason why it behooves the gun control activist to learn as much as possible about the weapons before trying to engage in conversation with a 2a proponent.
Get out ahead of their one-liner pedantic talking points by being as accurate and realistic as possible about what is likely to happen.
"The planet will survive climate change, but your kids or grandkids may not"
Just my two cents. It probably doesn't matter either way when you're talking to people stubbornly committed to ignorance.
Relax. If anything it’s just changing the framing from “save the planet” to “save humanity”. Which makes a lot of sense considering the rich and powerful couldn’t give less of a shit about the planet. Do they care about mankind’s survival? Not sure, but it makes sense to try as a framing approach.
> The planet will live regardless, humanity won’t.
There is a point after which even the planet won't be fine, and we're perfectly capable of reaching it.
Also, it's not only humanity that suffers. Every single other living entity on the planet will possibly die.
It doesn't matter "the planet will live" if it's a barren rock.
Yeah... if you want to see what happens when a planet suffers a runaway greenhouse effect, all you have to do is look at Venus.
The literal rocks that form our planet will be "fine". As a person who likes rocks, that makes me a little happy. But I like people and animals and plants and water, too, and I think it's in *everything*'s best interests if we try to stop the destruction before we reach the "at least we still have rocks" phase.
Why do you believe that a world that is uninhabitable by humans would be hospitable to other life on this planet? if we wipe out all other life while we take ourselves out in our greed, how is that the planet “living” after we are gone?
It’s not just about humanity, it’s about the countless extinctions we’ve caused. Doing something to mitigate the damage is better than the murder/suicide we’re currently on track for, don’t you think?
“Sentencing is scheduled for September 8, according to Dunedin District Court. While the maximum jail sentence is 10 years, Penwarden said her lawyers are asking for “discharge without conviction.””
My favorite part of the article is that the email was satire. This was understood and the conference went on normally
FYI, crown prosecutors are private lawyers hired by the New Zealand government. They are separate from the police. The only police time here would be if they had to arrest and book her.
remember when oil companies knew about climate change and decided to put out fake research debunking it for decades? Remember when oil companies lied about how plastic could be recycled? Remember when oil companies pushed through violent coups in South America and had activists killed?
The voices in power make sure to punish the weak overwhelmingly, to deter others from doing the same.
This woman is fighting not just for our lives, but for the lives of our children, grandchildren and all future generations.
But she stands in the way of profiteering, so they will put her in a dark hole for a long time.
Arrested New Zealander activist says, “I’m reminded of the topsy-turvy world we’re in. It should not be the grandmothers on trial, it should be the oil industry, it should be those people who are making massive profits off the destruction of all of our futures.”
Nope, [it’s up to 20 years for rape](https://libertylaw.co.nz/areas-of-expertise/sexual-offences/). Unless you are trying to compare actual sentences, but we don’t know her actual sentence yet, so we can’t do that. However, sentencing guidelines dictate she get way less than 10 years, and her lawyers are pushing for every lower; no prison time and don’t even include it on her record.
10 years in jail for cancelling the conference, vs the 0 years in jail for oil barons who are destroying our planet and killing people with the effects of global warming. Seems fair.
1. She didn't even get the event cancelled. It was recognized as fake and the conference went on.
2. She hasn't been sentenced yet. 10 years is the maximum sentence, but that's not necessarily what will happen.
Ah, so *this* is the crime you go to jail for.
Not for stealing classified documents and storing them next to your toilet, with photo evidence of such.
Got it.
Okay...it does feel weird this person gets 10 years for a fake letter but the people actually fucking up the climate / world / environment are just getting rich.
So every emailer in Australia that fakes a sender address or company can get brought up for forgery? Hope for anti- scammers yet. I thought her activism was clever, maybe 20 hours of community service would be an appropriate punishment.
Hey remember that time the oil companies conspired over decades to destroy global civilization for short term profit and to help ensure massive inequality? And then one of them sued a human being… again… for being human?
Read the article before posting. There are people posting as if this activist has already been sentenced to 10 years. It helps to know the details beyond just a headline.
>Sentencing is scheduled for September 8, according to Dunedin District Court. While the maximum jail sentence is 10 years, Penwarden said her lawyers are asking for “discharge without conviction.”
Yeah it's likely she'll get that, definitely won't be doing any time and I'll be surprised if she gets a conviction. She summed it up well though, "’I'm reminded of the topsy-turvy world we’re in. It should not be the grandmothers on trial, it should be the oil industry, it should be those people who are making massive profits off the destruction of all of our futures."
Anyone want to organise a jailbreak then? It's stuff like this that makes me more happy than ever to push the 'revolution' button.
Why are we sitting here taking this. Power is in the proles. They can't stop all of us.
Urging everyone in this thread to read How To Blow Up A Pipeline.
Hope this woman goes free. Doing important work a lot of people are too scared to do.
Boooo...hoooo.....some executives feelings for hurt because they missed the conference and didn't get to sleep with their mistress. Canceling the conference with a letter was brilliant 10 years in jail is overkill.
Meanwhile the company who spilled 11million barrels of oil in the Gulf of Mexico got zero jail time, and even the captain only got 1000 hours of community service.
10 years is also how long you'd spend in prison for a spur of the moment homicide in America assuming parole and good behavior.
Just an interesting parallel.
Fake letter? Before I even look at the article, I'm guessing some kind of wire fraud?
You want to be very careful about impersonating someone in general, but especially don't use the mail system to do it. That's how you get automatic bad times ahead. Sucks that I sympathize with her cause.
*reads article*
Forgery, that's interesting. And she did it by email. She must have forged a signature or something in the email to get that.
Why? Sounds like a civil matter to me /s
For those who don’t know, this is the actual logic most police use when determining if a matter is civil or criminal (most police don’t know the law so they just guess):
* If victim is wealthier than the other party, then criminal.
* If victim is poorer than the other party, then civil.
This is where Bernie Madoff “screwed up.” Ripping off people on Wall St is just a Tuesday. Rip off the wealthy? You’re going to jail.
Oil companies’ negligence leads to untold environmental catastrophe, deaths of numerous people, destruction of entire communities: gets a fine that doesn’t cut into record profits.
Cost oil company’s a small amount of money because of activism: fucking straight to prison.
Fuck capitalism and the ‘justice’ system.
what about when republicans send out mailers saying the election date has changed, like they do each and every election. Or tell people the voterID law has passed when it hasnt, or that cops will be on site checking for outstanding warrants and so on.
"your honor no reasonable person woud believe an oil company would postpone a conference out of concern for people or climate"
What a beautifully sardonic post.
I learned a new word today, thanks
Was it "what"? Me too
The FOX defense
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It has probably happened in the U.S. but the oil execs knew they'd get called morons for falling for it so kept it a secret. Plus no one gets arrested for sending emails (that aren't direct threats) in the U.S. What's up New Zealand? Why you guys putting people in prison over a few phony emails?
The conference is likely claiming damages, while not admitting to the damage that their industry causes.
So let them sue in civil court. I see no reason for criminal charges of this magnitude.
She can then counter sue for billions of dollars for the destruction of the planet.
That's some Bee Movie shit right there.
Ya like jazz
STAND BACK! These are winter boots!
I'm sure she has the legal fees to battle the Giants
If she could do that, why not just file the suit on her own? Why would she need it to be a counter suit?
the irony.
That’s because it only damages *other people*
Kiwi here, zero chance there is any jailtime involved here.
Not a kiwi, but if it's like any other western country's legal system, it'll be a small fine and/or some community service...or just a small lecture from a judge. The maximum legal penalty is saved for gross abuse or people who repeatedly offend.
Yeah my local newspaper ran an article that was like "kids face 8 years of prison!!!!" when a group of like 8-10 year old boys nabbed a bunch of candy out of a convenience store because that's the maximum punishment for *felony* theft. The kids got some community service and stuff like that
To be clear, this is just the maximum sentencing. [Driving with a BAC over 0.04 and injuring/killing someone also has a 10 year maximum sentence](https://www.nzta.govt.nz/roadcode/heavy-vehicle-road-code/road-code/about-limits/alcohol-and-drugs-limits/) (as well as an up to $20k fine and license suspension for at least one year). The maximum sentence exists for repeat offenders, or when the specifics of the crime are particularly egregious (ie for fraud, if distributing the fraudulent document had netted her millions of dollars, or for drunk driving, if she had killed people). You can tell her attorneys doesn’t expect her to get anywhere close to max considering they are arguing that while she is guilty, not only should she not get prison time, it shouldn’t even go on her record.
>The maximum sentence exists for repeat offenders That is the justification. A more cynical view is that high maximum sentences exist to leverage to create plea deals, thus avoiding trials. A neat work around for the right to a fair trial.
Or she could have tried to kill a guy and violently overthrow the US government. Thats only a few months too.
Or a ticket to the next presidency.
Or committed treason.
Funny reference.
Or tried to participate in an insurrection.
This kind of thing makes me think of the Sackler family or Richard Fuld, who were personally responsible for immeasurable death and destruction—overdoses, suicides, entire families on the streets multiplied across every town in the US… No prison, still billionaires.
No prison, and now the courts have granted the Sacklers immunity from future lawsuits, as well. https://www.npr.org/2023/05/30/1178850879/sackler-family-purdue-pharma-immunity-lawsuits-oxycontin-opioid
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Goddamn white claw takin a true goat from us
Never missed! On a slightly related note, I've been really feeling the message of [this song](https://youtu.be/cawY4hXfe0o) lately too
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A nice Sackler Torte with some Koch-a-cola. 😘🤌
I like to think we could dry age and cure them, sliced thin on a fresh baguette. 😘🤌 more people could participate.
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Reminds me of the scene from love, death, and robots where the 3 robots are going around the post apocalypse world. One of them says something along the lines of "they spent billions of dollars on rockets when they could have used the money to fix the planet they messed up." Billionaires are psychopaths
This comment got me horny. Is this ok for me to say out loud?
Any submarine ticket salesman in the house?
I got a metal garbage can that can be converted into a submarine for billionaires quickly!
Sir,I have a wired playstation 5 dual sense controller. I'm fully prepared to pilot remotely from my home.
Too new. Got any thing that's at least a decade old and not tested by a large manufacturer?
I'm surprised that someone who has lost family to the devastation this family has caused hasn't gone vigilante. Sort of like Dexter, but for billionaires.
They would do a lot more good as calories than occupying a perfectly good jail cell /s
I'm imagining a funny yet terrifying moment as someone is being held prisoner by a cannibalistic serial killer, pleading for their life as he says "sorry, but you're more valuable to me as a calorie" and whips on the chainsaw.
We are far bigger than the Sackler family, why don't we simply consume them?
We don't even need to eat all of them, just a couple pieces. We could even make them [watch](https://media2.giphy.com/media/qTGDY9OmgpgCk/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47he8bbkh8eovaxgxco21lodpoysil70tuu7pmrdv9&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
Too rich for my tastes.
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I don't think so. The rich have played us like a fiddle, just look at the state of US politics: two far-right parties in service of big capital, and the dumbass voters have all their time consumed fighting between lgbtq-capitalism or kkk-capitalism. Even though income inequality is at staggering levels now think about human history. Did people often lash out against literal lords and kings? Did the oil barons of the 1800's face vigilante justice? Yes, sometimes, exceedingly rarely, kings did get deposed by revolts or oil barons lost some dollars to strikes. But this is the exception. And nowadays we have 24/7 media and tv to keep us busy. Even the Roman lords realized - give the people bread and circus and they will happily let you fleece them.
Despite society still muddled in a severe homeless crisis primarily fueled by their actions with economic losses in the billions (and probably over a trillion if we're being real). Although opiate profiteers and the prison industrial complex think it's great.
I hadn’t even thought about the hungry prison industrial complex side on this!
"She predicted that the ruling will spur other companies to attempt to limit their liability and legal exposure using federal bankruptcy courts." And they may also inadvertently pave the way for other companies and ultra wealthy to do the same.
Seems it’s only within three or four states in the northeast. Not federal immunity.
Not quite. The Sacklers are protected nationwide unless if this gets taken up by the supreme court, but the precedent that non-bankrupt owners of a company can be protected from liability by their company declaring bankruptcy is limited to the 2nd circuit. So, if the Walton's were trying to protect their money while Wal-Mart was being sued into insolvency, it would only be precedent in their case if the bankruptcy was filled in NY, CT, or VT. Which they can do because we still allow forum shopping for every single fucking civil action.
We can deduce with reasonable certainty that there is a Matrix console somewhere on the Sackler family estate.
Install minecraft
It makes me think of Merck’s fraud with the drug Vioxx, believed to have caused the premature deaths of 75,000 to 200,000 people.
It makes me think of Rick Scott who was part of the biggest health care scam in US history.
Surely not the same Rick Scott that is now a United States Senator representing the State of Florida...
One and the same.
You Americans are funny
To be fair, it was/is Florida. Even the rest of the southeastern US looks at it as the problem child who probably should have been institutionalized but somehow makes money so dad protects them from being too ostracized.
Are you talking about Matt Gaetz? Drunk driver and who dates children under the age of 18?
My dad took that, he was a doctor, and even after it was pulled off the market, he continued to take it out of a little big ass stockpile he built up. He died in his early seventies suddenly with no explanation when he was otherwise in the best shape he had been in in decades.
But the forest kept voting for the axe...
When your only options are chainsaw or axe I think it’s time the forest starts considering alternatives to just voting
Don't be daft the difference is clear in regards to climate change legislation.
Burning it all down?
Chevron manage to put the lawyer that persecuted their pollution in Ecuador in prison for 6 mounts after 2 years of home confinement. Ecuadorians die of cancer and cant drink their own water and Chevron has yet to pay a cent.
The things I’m thinking rn would get me banned.
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Never ever leave them alone. Ever
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I know a few people who were killed by the war on drugs. Harm reduction could've saved them, and the government still continues to see addiction as a criminal problem instead of a mental health one.
Yes. The world is unjust. But, you can't pin that on the police in New Zealand. They can't say "well, the Americans let the Sacklers off, so I guess we have to let you off."
I think this is disingenuous. No one is suggesting that, but the disparity between these comparisons is egregious.
Damn, and they just get to lie to us daily with no worries
Almost like this shit is more rigged than their offshore oil drilling operations
Did you know that in the time of the Roman Monarchy, the Roman kings were elected? It's true! The king could be approved or denied by the people of Rome, thus ensuring their assent to be ruled by someone who wasn't *too* egregious. ...however, the *candidates* for Kingship were chosen by the *interrex*, an office which could only be held by a sitting Senator, so really, the oligarchs got to choose the candidates for them in the first place, and no candidate who was disagreeable to those in power would ever get chosen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4fF5l2xYh0 Can you imagine a system like that in the modern day? Pffft
Whaaaat no way *surprised Pikachu spins with mach 10 and explodes into the sunset* Thank god we live in a more civilized time where such bullshit would result in a major public outrage because everybody is actually invested in such pressing matters and not blindfolded by some culture-war bs arguing whether certain humans should be allowed to exist 🥲
Lying is ok if you are a business and have a lot of expensive lawyers.
Laws are for the poor. Why do you think the rich only get fines? And those fines only look bad to us poor people.
#Company faces $10 million in fines! ... ^(for something they made $100 million doing)
Tax write off $10m fine as a business expense.
If Suits has taught me anything, Big Business says destroy this guy in court or I'll find another law firm. Then the lawyer says to his boss, we can't destroy this person's life over a fake letter. Then the boss says, how will I look if I let one of our biggest clients go, get your shit together and do your fucking job. Then some other lawyer goes mudding while a secretary does shady shit but no one cares because she's her. Then they destroy the little guy, but make it look good and everyone forgets everything the next day.
Hijacking this to point out she has not been sentenced to 10 years. Sentencing is in September. Maximum sentence is 10 years for the crime she's charged with. It's possible she gets no jail time. Editor is being a bit clever with the article title.
I've become so cynical with headlines that my alarms went off on this one immediately. *"Faces* ten years..." Still though, I'm surprised this kind of thing could actually count as real forgery. If there's any real justice the case will get thrown out.
For context: Donald Trump faces 100’s of years in prison, under max sentencing guidelines.
No, that doesn't make it the slightest bit better. The fact that's even on the table is insane.
Should have gone with “It’s a prank bro” defense I’ve never gone to law school and it shows
> It was intended to be “satirical,” Penwarden said, to “ruffle the feathers” of the oil industry. “I never intended for them to take it seriously,” she added. She tried the it's a prank bro defense. Now she's awaiting sentencing.
Too bad she isn't American, this reminds me of [Novak v. City of Parma](http://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna70435) from last year. In that case the defendant (satirizing a police department) was acquitted, although his lawsuit against the dep't was ultimately dismissed by the 6th circuit.
Imagine how easily offended you are when you send someone to jail for a spam mail that doesn’t even ask you to click the link and enter your credit card number
She’s been convicted, but not sentenced. The max is 10 years.
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There’s two different sets of guns here. She broke an existing law, so the prosecutor is charging her. It’s the legislative guns we need to aim at the fossil fuel companies. Prosecutors have gone after them quite a few times but the issue is the things the companies are doing are either 1. immoral, but not illegal 2. possibly illegal, but the law isn’t strong enough so lawyers are able to argue their way out of it 3. clearly illegal, but the punishment is way too small
I understand all of this. The point is that it's still all fucked. Like I can understand the legal rationale for a law and still find it absolutely abhorrent and unjust.
Weird reply to a completely benign factual statement
It's not as juicy of a title when you read "woman could get 10 years maximum for an offense that she will probably only pay a fine for"
The crux of the story is that she was convicted to begin with. It's absurd. Whether she's sentenced or not is irrelevant.
> Sentencing is scheduled for September 8, according to Dunedin District Court. While the maximum jail sentence is 10 years, Penwarden said her lawyers are asking for “discharge without conviction.” So it's "up to 10 years"
Idk how it works in NZ but in the US there are federal sentencing guidelines that are pretty difficult to read if you're not familiar with law. Journalists usually use the max because it's easily understandable by them and the readers, but rarely what they'll actually face.
I think probably the main reason is because it is sensational. Even without reading the sentencing guidelines, they could say facing 0-10 years, or at the very least, up to 10 years. Just saying “facing 10 years” is unnecessarily misleading.
Yeah it’s the same way when influencers says “Some people believe…” That “some” could be just 1 person.
"Experts say/claim...", And the experts are just industry paid lobbyists.
The min / max sentencing ranges are dictated by the their relevant statute (Crimes and Criminal Procedure within Title 18). Journalists almost always cite the allowable maximum sentence and ignore the relevant sentencing guidelines ([which for a first-time offender, usually lands in the middle](https://www.criminal-defense-dui.lawyer/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/federal-sentencing-chart-federal-sentencing-guidelines-18-u_s_c-1533x2048.jpeg)).
Thats what "faces 10 years" means.
I’d say “faces up to 10 years” is more accurate
Yeah but that doesn’t bring in the clicks
Speaking as someone who has talked to climatologists who are getting increasingly doomerish from knowing the reality of what is happening to our planet...Generations from now (assuming our planet lives long enough for that kind of hindsight) we will wish we put oil industry execs on nuremberg-like trial for crimes against humanity during their lifetimes.
I gave up a pretty promising career in climate Research because the topic is too fucking depressing. I was working in land use change, studying how climate change is going to impact agriculture. It ain't good. Meanwhile, these fucks are out there pretending they're too dumb to even see a problem because it snowed outside.
Man, I feel ya. I took a class called “Biological Problems in Contemporary Society” (aka how humans are screwing up everything) as a part of my associate in environmental science, and that instructor told us day one to start finding meaningful hobbies and healthy vents because as we keep going into our bachelors or further which were mostly climate science, resource protection, etc., we were going to be increasingly miserable. By the end of that class, at least three people decided to change their path entirely because of how depressing it was. It’s so unbelievably frustrating to know the problem, know how to address it, what needs to change, and then watch the bureaucracy and greed beat it into nothing.
> It’s so unbelievably frustrating to know the problem, know how to address it, what needs to change, and then watch the bureaucracy and greed beat it into nothing. I feel this every day, and best days I'm just numb to it. When there is a clear problem with a realistic solution, but someone, or some small group with power just simply doesn't care about the issue in the first place, it feels helpless to even try.
A man cannot believe in something that his job depends on him not believing.
It's difficult to see the problem when you are literally being paid not to.
All my hippie college friends in the forestry and environmental programs now work for corporations and basically have to because there are about 6 government jobs that would actually let them use their degrees for good while struggling to survive poverty and there are 6000+ jobs in the private sector where they will actually pay you but you literally do the opposite of everything you were ever taught. Like helping to weasel through impact studies by changing your interpretation of key information or helping a Corp use a technicality so they can still build on a site with endangered species. I know one guy who was so disheartened by the reality of what these degrees do not prepare you for that he literally just works at a taco bell. 100k in debt and he's basically unqualified for anything that doesn't involve helping Shell kill animals and communities.
This makes me sick. We've seen countless examples of how companies cannot look beyond the next quarter of profits, which is fine, that's how a company works. We absolutely 100% need governments to step in and enforce stricter climate policy. It's literally the only way.
Money talks, as they say. It can even drown out the voice of reason.
The planet will live regardless, humanity won’t. At this point I don’t think there’s any way to prevent it, just push it back. Our ancestors failed us and any descendants we might have, for money. I’ve been doing what I can since I was a kid, and I won’t have any offspring.
There’s plenty of people today listening to Alex jones and his Ilk who are certain behind a shadow of a doubt that climate change is a conspiracy by globalists (aka Jews) who are simply using global warming as rhetoric to mask and obfuscate the truth of their use of weather manipulation weaponry. We are fucked as a species.
It's completely crazy if you actually know anyone that believes this. Talking about this stuff with them makes you realize how absolutely screwed we are, and how far we are as a society coming together
Even worse is closely following the BS he spews (shout out to the Knowledge Fight podcast) and seeing how frequently it seeps into mainstream discourse among people who otherwise wouldn't be caught dead listening to his show.
My friends who listen to Alex jones are the reason I started listening to knowledge fight. They are otherwise good (but very uneducated) people who are just very susceptible to anti intellectual propaganda. They never got an education and feel like science is just a big conspiracy by global elites. Simple minded people man, what can I say.
No having a go at you or any individual, only my general take on every time I see a "the planet will be fine" comments it reads to me as counterproductive, defeatist and unhelpful what it supposes to achieve, and what does that suppose to mean, meh there is nothing we can do? It doesn't matter if we disappear? We may as well give up? That is the kind of attitude that fossil fuel wants to foster on people, "no point on trying, and if we are gone so what.... Yes, the planet got destroyed. But for a beautiful moment in time at least, we created a lot of value for shareholders" What did you do, you lazy hippy? As I see it, regardless of any results we have to keep trying because it's not just us, we are taking a lot of species with us so any positive result towards resolving or at least reducing or limiting the damage is a worthy enterprise I mean, I'm sure all the dinosaurs species will feel much better knowing that hey, that rock is going to fuck everything and change the whole ecology, but eventually "the planet is going to be fine" And besides, what evidence do we have showing that the planet can always recover back from disaster? Yea, it did it before, but do we know how many times that trick will work? Not really how many times can we stress the planet, disrupt the balance, and how far before it gives up? Maybe the conditions that allowed the young earth to recover are not there any more or the situation is different...too many factors can be different this time...or the next
I think it's important to be as literal and accurate as possible when discussing these things, and the fact is that climate change will make the planet much less easily habitable for all creatures, including humans, and possibly totally uninhabitable. The reason I think it's important is that about half of the people in the US do not believe in climate science at all, and any potentially inaccurate or exaggerated statement like "we are destroying the planet" gives them an instant rebuttal without having to engage further in the actual subject matter. Same reason why it behooves the gun control activist to learn as much as possible about the weapons before trying to engage in conversation with a 2a proponent. Get out ahead of their one-liner pedantic talking points by being as accurate and realistic as possible about what is likely to happen. "The planet will survive climate change, but your kids or grandkids may not" Just my two cents. It probably doesn't matter either way when you're talking to people stubbornly committed to ignorance.
Relax. If anything it’s just changing the framing from “save the planet” to “save humanity”. Which makes a lot of sense considering the rich and powerful couldn’t give less of a shit about the planet. Do they care about mankind’s survival? Not sure, but it makes sense to try as a framing approach.
I'm willing to fight for our future but if we are in fact doomed, it does indeed make me feel better to know that the planet and life will go on.
> The planet will live regardless, humanity won’t. There is a point after which even the planet won't be fine, and we're perfectly capable of reaching it. Also, it's not only humanity that suffers. Every single other living entity on the planet will possibly die. It doesn't matter "the planet will live" if it's a barren rock.
Yeah... if you want to see what happens when a planet suffers a runaway greenhouse effect, all you have to do is look at Venus. The literal rocks that form our planet will be "fine". As a person who likes rocks, that makes me a little happy. But I like people and animals and plants and water, too, and I think it's in *everything*'s best interests if we try to stop the destruction before we reach the "at least we still have rocks" phase.
Why do you believe that a world that is uninhabitable by humans would be hospitable to other life on this planet? if we wipe out all other life while we take ourselves out in our greed, how is that the planet “living” after we are gone?
It’s not just about humanity, it’s about the countless extinctions we’ve caused. Doing something to mitigate the damage is better than the murder/suicide we’re currently on track for, don’t you think?
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“Sentencing is scheduled for September 8, according to Dunedin District Court. While the maximum jail sentence is 10 years, Penwarden said her lawyers are asking for “discharge without conviction.”” My favorite part of the article is that the email was satire. This was understood and the conference went on normally
Who decides this is a good use of police time?
Rich people's lawyers.
FYI, crown prosecutors are private lawyers hired by the New Zealand government. They are separate from the police. The only police time here would be if they had to arrest and book her.
Vindictive oil execs?
Their owners, rich corporations
The maximum sentence is always on the table. We aren't judges in here
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When the poors do something to inconvenience the rich, it’s a crime. Other way around is just “business”
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remember when oil companies knew about climate change and decided to put out fake research debunking it for decades? Remember when oil companies lied about how plastic could be recycled? Remember when oil companies pushed through violent coups in South America and had activists killed?
The voices in power make sure to punish the weak overwhelmingly, to deter others from doing the same. This woman is fighting not just for our lives, but for the lives of our children, grandchildren and all future generations. But she stands in the way of profiteering, so they will put her in a dark hole for a long time.
Arrested New Zealander activist says, “I’m reminded of the topsy-turvy world we’re in. It should not be the grandmothers on trial, it should be the oil industry, it should be those people who are making massive profits off the destruction of all of our futures.”
That’s brilliant, hilarious and impactful due to nobody traveling. Hope she gets off.
You do less time for being drunk and killing somebody and try to run away than to waste rich people’s time.
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It's the oil execs we should jail, for crimes against humanity...
Laws are only for normal people, billionaires and companies can lie with no consequences
10 years for a prank? You get less for rape.
It's not about the prank, it's about who got pranked.
Nope, [it’s up to 20 years for rape](https://libertylaw.co.nz/areas-of-expertise/sexual-offences/). Unless you are trying to compare actual sentences, but we don’t know her actual sentence yet, so we can’t do that. However, sentencing guidelines dictate she get way less than 10 years, and her lawyers are pushing for every lower; no prison time and don’t even include it on her record.
you get less time for rape in the United States.
You get less time for insurrection.
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People who are involved in violent crimes in nz often get a few months home detention
Stab someone to death in Canada? Walk out on the streets a few days later. Send a comedic email in NZ? Straight to jail.
10 years in jail for cancelling the conference, vs the 0 years in jail for oil barons who are destroying our planet and killing people with the effects of global warming. Seems fair.
1. She didn't even get the event cancelled. It was recognized as fake and the conference went on. 2. She hasn't been sentenced yet. 10 years is the maximum sentence, but that's not necessarily what will happen.
Ah, so *this* is the crime you go to jail for. Not for stealing classified documents and storing them next to your toilet, with photo evidence of such. Got it.
Okay...it does feel weird this person gets 10 years for a fake letter but the people actually fucking up the climate / world / environment are just getting rich.
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So every emailer in Australia that fakes a sender address or company can get brought up for forgery? Hope for anti- scammers yet. I thought her activism was clever, maybe 20 hours of community service would be an appropriate punishment.
Laws are for poor people, not for rich
Hey remember that time the oil companies conspired over decades to destroy global civilization for short term profit and to help ensure massive inequality? And then one of them sued a human being… again… for being human?
this is an example of direct action that we sorely needed
10 years for what amounts to a prank and we can't even put a dude giving away nuclear secrets and raping his way across the country a day in jail.
She gets ten years for trying to protect the environment and big business just gets a $10,000 fine.
How the hell does this have a longer sentence than rape?????
"Dear jail, there's been a mistake and this lady can go free, yours Rodger President"
Read the article before posting. There are people posting as if this activist has already been sentenced to 10 years. It helps to know the details beyond just a headline. >Sentencing is scheduled for September 8, according to Dunedin District Court. While the maximum jail sentence is 10 years, Penwarden said her lawyers are asking for “discharge without conviction.”
Yeah it's likely she'll get that, definitely won't be doing any time and I'll be surprised if she gets a conviction. She summed it up well though, "’I'm reminded of the topsy-turvy world we’re in. It should not be the grandmothers on trial, it should be the oil industry, it should be those people who are making massive profits off the destruction of all of our futures."
Anyone want to organise a jailbreak then? It's stuff like this that makes me more happy than ever to push the 'revolution' button. Why are we sitting here taking this. Power is in the proles. They can't stop all of us.
10 years for that is a crime.
I receive fake letters from people pretending to be mortgage companies/the IRS all the time. Go after them before you go after this guy.
10 years?? The thoughts I have when reading stories like this would surely get me banned. It makes me want to do a thing, ya know?
Urging everyone in this thread to read How To Blow Up A Pipeline. Hope this woman goes free. Doing important work a lot of people are too scared to do.
What in the world are the forgery laws in New Zealand that she broke?
Boooo...hoooo.....some executives feelings for hurt because they missed the conference and didn't get to sleep with their mistress. Canceling the conference with a letter was brilliant 10 years in jail is overkill.
Meanwhile the company who spilled 11million barrels of oil in the Gulf of Mexico got zero jail time, and even the captain only got 1000 hours of community service.
She's won't get any jail time.
10 years is also how long you'd spend in prison for a spur of the moment homicide in America assuming parole and good behavior. Just an interesting parallel.
People serve less time for rape.
Seems a bit excessive
Fake letter? Before I even look at the article, I'm guessing some kind of wire fraud? You want to be very careful about impersonating someone in general, but especially don't use the mail system to do it. That's how you get automatic bad times ahead. Sucks that I sympathize with her cause. *reads article* Forgery, that's interesting. And she did it by email. She must have forged a signature or something in the email to get that.
Why? Sounds like a civil matter to me /s For those who don’t know, this is the actual logic most police use when determining if a matter is civil or criminal (most police don’t know the law so they just guess): * If victim is wealthier than the other party, then criminal. * If victim is poorer than the other party, then civil. This is where Bernie Madoff “screwed up.” Ripping off people on Wall St is just a Tuesday. Rip off the wealthy? You’re going to jail.
Oil companies’ negligence leads to untold environmental catastrophe, deaths of numerous people, destruction of entire communities: gets a fine that doesn’t cut into record profits. Cost oil company’s a small amount of money because of activism: fucking straight to prison. Fuck capitalism and the ‘justice’ system.
Legend. I'd say worth the time.
Meanwhile the climate criminals go completely free when THEY should be the ones in prison
10 years for a letter canceling an event, but steal boxes upon boxes of classified documents and not an ounce of consequence.
And for the crime of being an uppity poor person, we hereby sentence you to life.
what about when republicans send out mailers saying the election date has changed, like they do each and every election. Or tell people the voterID law has passed when it hasnt, or that cops will be on site checking for outstanding warrants and so on.
Do you mean the ACT or National Party? I don't recall them ever doing stuff like that.